Re: [OSM-talk] Public notary (Map feature POI proposal)

[Steve Bennett]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 4:42 AM, Pieren  wrote:

> I suggested some time ago to use a new general key for such things
> (when it's not really an amenity, a shop or a leisure like for
> lawyers, architects, designers, etc) : office=notary
>
>
Yeah, I agree amenity is overused. Also perhaps business=notary? But if the
term is so confusing, maybe find something else, like "public_official" or
something.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

[Steve Bennett]

Just a thought - I haven't thought this through - could relation be used to
form a close relationship between a road and a track? Create a highway,
create a track, then link both with a relation. You could even have a role
for the track like "left_cycleway" or something. An approach like this might
give you the benefits of both - a router could just use the relation to
determine properties of the cycleway, and effectively transfer them to the
road. Yet a renderer could fully render the cycleway track.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before.

Steve
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Re: [OSM-talk] Host free ortophotos to be used on OSM

[Jeremy Adams]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 8:56 PM, enqd  wrote:

> Hi, I'm newbie on OSM and as I can see we have only Yahoo imagery as
> base to map some cities on Brasil (only some bigger ones)
> Recently I read on  wiki that a service called nearmaps host maps to
> be used on OSM.
> I know a service on Brazil that have some ortophotos free, all can use
> it (services that use the images only need to specify that images are
> from IBGE source)
> I would like to ask if OSM or anyone can host this images to be used on
> OSM.
> The images are here:
> ftp://geoftp.ibge.gov.br/mapas/ortofoto/
>
> Will be great to Brazilian users if we have this images as base to add
> streets and places on OSM.
> Hope someone can host it, thanks.
>

I may be able to help, but I'd need to know how you want the files hosted.
Dumb file hosting on a webserver would be easy.  Anything else might be
harder.

-Jeremy
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Re: [OSM-talk] Host free ortophotos to be used on OSM

[Ian Dees]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:56 PM, enqd  wrote:

> Hi, I'm newbie on OSM and as I can see we have only Yahoo imagery as
> base to map some cities on Brasil (only some bigger ones)
> Recently I read on  wiki that a service called nearmaps host maps to
> be used on OSM.
> I know a service on Brazil that have some ortophotos free, all can use
> it (services that use the images only need to specify that images are
> from IBGE source)
> I would like to ask if OSM or anyone can host this images to be used on
> OSM.
> The images are here:
> ftp://geoftp.ibge.gov.br/mapas/ortofoto/
>
> Will be great to Brazilian users if we have this images as base to add
> streets and places on OSM.
> Hope someone can host it, thanks.
>
>
I'm working on downloading the images and will attempt to host them in the
near future. Let me (and the list) know if you find alternate hosting.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Host free ortophotos to be used on OSM

[Anthony]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 8:56 PM, enqd  wrote:

> I would like to ask if OSM or anyone can host this images to be used on
> OSM.
> The images are here:
> ftp://geoftp.ibge.gov.br/mapas/ortofoto/
>

Hmm, what format do you want it to be hosted in?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Host free ortophotos to be used on OSM

[maning sambale]

You can also ask Andy:
http://www.gravitystorm.co.uk/shine/archives/2009/12/09/the-view-from-above/

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 10:31 AM, Stefan de Konink  wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, enqd wrote:
>
>> I would like to ask if OSM or anyone can host this images to be used on OSM.
>> The images are here:
>> ftp://geoftp.ibge.gov.br/mapas/ortofoto/
>>
>> Will be great to Brazilian users if we have this images as base to add
>> streets and places on OSM.
>> Hope someone can host it, thanks.
>
> OpenAerialMap is probably your biggest chance for hosting.
>
>
> Stefan
>
>
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maning
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Re: [OSM-talk] Host free ortophotos to be used on OSM

[Stefan de Konink]

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, enqd wrote:

> I would like to ask if OSM or anyone can host this images to be used on OSM.
> The images are here:
> ftp://geoftp.ibge.gov.br/mapas/ortofoto/
>
> Will be great to Brazilian users if we have this images as base to add
> streets and places on OSM.
> Hope someone can host it, thanks.

OpenAerialMap is probably your biggest chance for hosting.


Stefan


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[OSM-talk] Host free ortophotos to be used on OSM

[enqd]

Hi, I'm newbie on OSM and as I can see we have only Yahoo imagery as
base to map some cities on Brasil (only some bigger ones)
Recently I read on  wiki that a service called nearmaps host maps to
be used on OSM.
I know a service on Brazil that have some ortophotos free, all can use
it (services that use the images only need to specify that images are
from IBGE source)
I would like to ask if OSM or anyone can host this images to be used on OSM.
The images are here:
ftp://geoftp.ibge.gov.br/mapas/ortofoto/

Will be great to Brazilian users if we have this images as base to add
streets and places on OSM.
Hope someone can host it, thanks.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vertical ways (staircase)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2010/1/5 Lester Caine 

>
> Just as we are discussing how to get 2d shapes linked to ways, you come up
> with
> the perfect argument for 3d models ;)
> There does need to be SOME level information in the tagging. The top end
> has to
> be on a level above the bottom, and the ways that are linking together
> obviously
> pass one another in different planes. A short diagonal way between the two
> will
> provide routing data, but while the ends may in practice be directly above
> on
> another, offsetting them in the area occupied by the steps gets around the
> editor limitations?
>


actually by the photo he provided in the meantime I'd say: just map normal
steps (2D-projection of the object), don't simplify (much) but try to get
the shape. Maybe both the ways have to be layer 0 at that given point, as
layers only tell about relative layering order, they do not give any
height-information (you could use the ele-tag for those, but don't expect
current routers to recognize the distance).

A structure with 2 nodes one above the other would be necessary for things
like this:
http://www.schmickler-metallbau.de/images/ref/WBH/Niederehe_Leiter.jpg

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

[Aun Johnsen]

groklaw.net - I subscribed to their newletter during the hottest part
of the lawsuit. Wasn't just SCO vs Linux, was more SCO vs Linux vs IBM
vs everybody else. And where did everything start? In a piece of
source code if I remember right. Something in the Linux kernel
supposedly came from a piece of copyrighted code bought by SCO from
IBM.

So if that applies here, the street names somebody copies from Google
can become the property of  and  opens lawsuite against OSM
for stealing their work? I believe SCO had some form of evidence other
than "word on the street", don't know if such claims about street
names can be proved in the same way though.

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 12:25 AM, John Smith  wrote:
> Friverlous lawsuits can and have been used to bankrupt competition and
> you only have to look at sco v linux to see how far they can go
>
> On 06/01/2010, Anthony  wrote:
>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Ulf Lamping
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 05.01.2010 15:17, schrieb Anthony:
>>> > I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law.  What I suggest is
>>> > not acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there
>>> is.
>>> >
>>> > So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken.  One
>>> > brief attempt pointed to EU database law, which 1) hasn't been shown to
>>> > apply in Australia; and 2) hasn't been shown to apply to all instances
>>> > of copying anyway.
>>>
>>> So we'll end up with a map only being legally usable in Australia.
>>
>>
>> What makes you think that?
>>
>>
>>> Fine for you, but not a goal that I have.
>>>
>>
>> Nor a goal I have, since I don't live in Australia.
>>
>>> What we're left with is some sort of vague "Pascal's Wager" type
>>> > admonishment - "I have absolutely no evidence for my claims, but you
>>> > have to follow what I say anyway because not doing so would be
>>> > infinitely bad."  I don't buy that crap.
>>>
>>> So unless a mapper was drawn to bancrupt at court, you still won't agree
>>> that there might be a problem.
>>>
>>
>> What makes you think that?
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 2:15 PM, John Smith wrote:
>>
>>> 2010/1/6 Anthony :
>>> > Really?  Where?  What laws are being suggested to be broken?
>>>
>>> Not familiar with frivilous lawsuits?
>>>
>>
>> Just don't see that applicability.
>>
>>> I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law.  What I suggest is
>>> not
>>> > acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there is.
>>>
>>> Not only is there copyright law, in the case of Google and other
>>> online services there is also contract law.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, there is also contract law which no one has shown to apply.  By the
>> way, in any EU states, any contractual provision which attempts to "prevent
>> a lawful user of the database from extracting and/or re-utilizing
>> insubstantial parts of its contents, evaluated qualitatively and/or
>> quantitatively, for any purposes whatsoever" "is null and void".  I don't
>> know if Australia has such a provision, though.
>>
>>
>>> > So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken.  One
>>> > brief attempt pointed to EU database law, which 1) hasn't been shown to
>>> > apply in Australia; and 2) hasn't been shown to apply to all instances
>>> > of
>>> > copying anyway.
>>>
>>> You mustn't have asked the right questions, see the Telstra ruling.
>>>
>>
>> Seems to me there's a difference between copying an entire phone book and
>> copying a few street names.  I find it hard to believe that anyone who gives
>> someone else directions after consulting with a map is committing a
>> copyright violation.
>>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

[John Smith]

Friverlous lawsuits can and have been used to bankrupt competition and
you only have to look at sco v linux to see how far they can go

On 06/01/2010, Anthony  wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Ulf Lamping
> wrote:
>
>> Am 05.01.2010 15:17, schrieb Anthony:
>> > I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law.  What I suggest is
>> > not acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there
>> is.
>> >
>> > So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken.  One
>> > brief attempt pointed to EU database law, which 1) hasn't been shown to
>> > apply in Australia; and 2) hasn't been shown to apply to all instances
>> > of copying anyway.
>>
>> So we'll end up with a map only being legally usable in Australia.
>
>
> What makes you think that?
>
>
>> Fine for you, but not a goal that I have.
>>
>
> Nor a goal I have, since I don't live in Australia.
>
>> What we're left with is some sort of vague "Pascal's Wager" type
>> > admonishment - "I have absolutely no evidence for my claims, but you
>> > have to follow what I say anyway because not doing so would be
>> > infinitely bad."  I don't buy that crap.
>>
>> So unless a mapper was drawn to bancrupt at court, you still won't agree
>> that there might be a problem.
>>
>
> What makes you think that?
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 2:15 PM, John Smith wrote:
>
>> 2010/1/6 Anthony :
>> > Really?  Where?  What laws are being suggested to be broken?
>>
>> Not familiar with frivilous lawsuits?
>>
>
> Just don't see that applicability.
>
>> I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law.  What I suggest is
>> not
>> > acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there is.
>>
>> Not only is there copyright law, in the case of Google and other
>> online services there is also contract law.
>>
>
> Yes, there is also contract law which no one has shown to apply.  By the
> way, in any EU states, any contractual provision which attempts to "prevent
> a lawful user of the database from extracting and/or re-utilizing
> insubstantial parts of its contents, evaluated qualitatively and/or
> quantitatively, for any purposes whatsoever" "is null and void".  I don't
> know if Australia has such a provision, though.
>
>
>> > So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken.  One
>> > brief attempt pointed to EU database law, which 1) hasn't been shown to
>> > apply in Australia; and 2) hasn't been shown to apply to all instances
>> > of
>> > copying anyway.
>>
>> You mustn't have asked the right questions, see the Telstra ruling.
>>
>
> Seems to me there's a difference between copying an entire phone book and
> copying a few street names.  I find it hard to believe that anyone who gives
> someone else directions after consulting with a map is committing a
> copyright violation.
>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

[Anthony]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Ulf Lamping wrote:

> Am 05.01.2010 15:17, schrieb Anthony:
> > I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law.  What I suggest is
> > not acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there
> is.
> >
> > So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken.  One
> > brief attempt pointed to EU database law, which 1) hasn't been shown to
> > apply in Australia; and 2) hasn't been shown to apply to all instances
> > of copying anyway.
>
> So we'll end up with a map only being legally usable in Australia.


What makes you think that?


> Fine for you, but not a goal that I have.
>

Nor a goal I have, since I don't live in Australia.

> What we're left with is some sort of vague "Pascal's Wager" type
> > admonishment - "I have absolutely no evidence for my claims, but you
> > have to follow what I say anyway because not doing so would be
> > infinitely bad."  I don't buy that crap.
>
> So unless a mapper was drawn to bancrupt at court, you still won't agree
> that there might be a problem.
>

What makes you think that?

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 2:15 PM, John Smith wrote:

> 2010/1/6 Anthony :
> > Really?  Where?  What laws are being suggested to be broken?
>
> Not familiar with frivilous lawsuits?
>

Just don't see that applicability.

> I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law.  What I suggest is
> not
> > acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there is.
>
> Not only is there copyright law, in the case of Google and other
> online services there is also contract law.
>

Yes, there is also contract law which no one has shown to apply.  By the
way, in any EU states, any contractual provision which attempts to "prevent
a lawful user of the database from extracting and/or re-utilizing
insubstantial parts of its contents, evaluated qualitatively and/or
quantitatively, for any purposes whatsoever" "is null and void".  I don't
know if Australia has such a provision, though.


> > So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken.  One
> > brief attempt pointed to EU database law, which 1) hasn't been shown to
> > apply in Australia; and 2) hasn't been shown to apply to all instances of
> > copying anyway.
>
> You mustn't have asked the right questions, see the Telstra ruling.
>

Seems to me there's a difference between copying an entire phone book and
copying a few street names.  I find it hard to believe that anyone who gives
someone else directions after consulting with a map is committing a
copyright violation.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

[Roy Wallace]

On Wed, Jan 6, 2010 at 5:15 AM, John Smith  wrote:
>
> Telstra, a carrier, won it's copyright case over companies copying
> from white/yellow pages in 2001:
>
> http://www.copyright.org.au/pdf/acc/articles_pdf/A01n09.pdf

For those who don't want to follow the link, the essence is:

"The Court concluded that [ a compilation is copyright ] ... if the
author has engaged in sufficient work or incurred sufficient expense
gathering the information."

This idea is referred to as the "sweat of the brow” or “industrious
collection” doctrine.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New "Highways" view in OSM Inspector

[Jochen Topf]

On Wed, Jan 06, 2010 at 05:24:52AM +1000, John Smith wrote:
> 2010/1/6 Jochen Topf :
> > Hi!
> >
> > The OSM Inspector (tools.geofabrik.de/osmi) just got a new "Highways" view.
> > It shows problems with highway types, names, refs and some other tags such
> > as oneway and maxspeed.
> >
> > http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=highways

I guess you are talking about the geometry view and not the highway view.

> It still show's long ways as a potential problem, in Australia that
> isn't the case since some segments are pretty long/straight even:
> 
> For example, the highway across the Nullarbor is supposedly the
> longest, straightest highway in the world.

Long ways are a potential problem if you have long segments with no nodes in
it. One problem is when you draw a small part of the map that has a line going
through it but no nodes in it (because they are all outside), the line might
not show because the software doesn't recognize this. You can run into this when
using Osmarender for instance. Another problem ist the projection. Straight
lines on the earth are not necessary straight lines in some projections. They
should show up as curves. But if you don't have enought supporting nodes, you
don't get nice curves. This view warnes you that you might run into those
kinds of problems. It doesn't mean that your data is wrong. It means that in
some cases your data might not be interpreted in the right way.

Jochen
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Re: [OSM-talk] Some time ago ...

[Liz]

On Tue, 5 Jan 2010, Ulf Lamping wrote:
> I've physically visit it again. There's no big deal to revisit a street, 
> if you want to map the next house block a few hundred meters away from it.
> 
> In fact it's quite a good idea to revisit an area anyway, as it's almost 
> impossible to get all details in one run. You'll need at least two runs 
> to get all the details, very often more:
> 

Aun and I can't just revisit a place on whim.
The distances become huge, so my mapping method is hopefully more efficient 
than that. 
And if I miss a street name or can't sort out where to which road on a 
junction my photographed street name applies - then I have several methods of 
research. "Other published maps" is one of them.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Public notary (Map feature POI proposal)

[David Paleino]

John Smith wrote:

> 2010/1/6 Serge Wroclawski :
>> Yet the same English word "notary".
>
> It gets even more fun in Australia, we have JPs (Justice of the Peace)
> to stamp/witness documents being signed, but in the US a JP is
> something like a judge.

In Italy JPs are "something like a judge", and notary has the same
meaning as the one Serge pointed out for France (i.e. part of the
Judiciary, not an attorney, but needed for legally binding things)


amenity=notary
notary=american-like|european-like


:)

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copyright Assignment

[Rob Myers]

On 05/01/10 19:24, 80n wrote:
> It may suit you, as a consumer of OSM data, to not give a damn about
> contributing back to the project, but that's not what OSM is about.
>   
Yes, any copyleft/share-alike licence *enables* this. But I think the
discussion here (and I've been guilty of this myself in the past) has
sometimes concentrated on this contributing back to the project rather
than spreading/ensuring freedom for people to use the resources.

I do think that OSM is culturally in no small part about this giving
back, and that having changed licences once it's important that OSM be
able to change/upgrade/whatever the licence in the future. And a
foundation isn't a corporation, so "copyright assignment" and its
cognates shouldn't be a cause for panic. But I do think it's important
to be clear about why this is and what it is for - to ensure the ongoing
ability to use the data/maps, not to create power relations for their
own sake or for the sake of those controlling them.

- Rob.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Public notary (Map feature POI proposal)

[John Smith]

2010/1/6 Serge Wroclawski :
> Yet the same English word "notary".

It gets even more fun in Australia, we have JPs (Justice of the Peace)
to stamp/witness documents being signed, but in the US a JP is
something like a judge.

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Re: [OSM-talk] New "Highways" view in OSM Inspector

[John Smith]

2010/1/6 Jochen Topf :
> Hi!
>
> The OSM Inspector (tools.geofabrik.de/osmi) just got a new "Highways" view.
> It shows problems with highway types, names, refs and some other tags such
> as oneway and maxspeed.
>
> http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=highways

It still show's long ways as a potential problem, in Australia that
isn't the case since some segments are pretty long/straight even:

For example, the highway across the Nullarbor is supposedly the
longest, straightest highway in the world.

http://www.abc.net.au/wa/stories/m882436.jpg

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copyright Assignment

[80n]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Matt Amos  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 10:04 AM, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The purpose of the share-alike principle is to enable derived work to be
> fed
> > back into the main body.
>
> that's your opinion. my opinion is that the purpose of share alike is
> to allow data to be remixed, mashed-up or otherwise modified as long
> as it's available under the original license. feeding back is a side
> effect which many projects (e.g: FSF) do perfectly well without.
>
>
Any share-however-you-like license has the properties you describe.  We're
talking about share-alike here.

It may suit you, as a consumer of OSM data, to not give a damn about
contributing back to the project, but that's not what OSM is about.

80n
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Re: [OSM-talk] Public notary (Map feature POI proposal)

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 12:42 PM, Pieren  wrote:
> I suggested some time ago to use a new general key for such things
> (when it's not really an amenity, a shop or a leisure like for
> lawyers, architects, designers, etc) : office=notary

Ah, Pieren touches on an issue which is unspoken in this issue... What
does a Notary Public mean?

In the US, a Notary Public is someone who simply stamps documents.
It's not hard to become one, they're licensed out and there's a
nominal annual fee, and usually places which offer notary services
charge somewhere between $1 and $5 for the service.

I believe Pieren is French, and in France, a Notary is something more
akin to a lawyer- they're a person one hires to write up contracts and
other legal work. They're not attorneys but they have legal training
and officially they're part of the Judiciary. Their services are
required when you make legally binding documents (contracts, some tax
forms, house sales, etc.).

Yet the same English word "notary".

This should be clarified before adding it to the map.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

[John Smith]

2010/1/6 Anthony :
> Really?  Where?  What laws are being suggested to be broken?

Not familiar with frivilous lawsuits?

Also Australian's, and the OP seems to be mapping in Australia, don't
have the same copyright laws as in the US:

Telstra, a carrier, won it's copyright case over companies copying
from white/yellow pages in 2001:

http://www.copyright.org.au/pdf/acc/articles_pdf/A01n09.pdf

> I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law.  What I suggest is not
> acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there is.

Not only is there copyright law, in the case of Google and other
online services there is also contract law.

> So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken.  One
> brief attempt pointed to EU database law, which 1) hasn't been shown to
> apply in Australia; and 2) hasn't been shown to apply to all instances of
> copying anyway.

You mustn't have asked the right questions, see the Telstra ruling.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Public notary (Map feature POI proposal)

[Alex Mauer]

On 01/05/2010 11:42 AM, Pieren wrote:
> I suggested some time ago to use a new general key for such things
> (when it's not really an amenity, a shop or a leisure like for
> lawyers, architects, designers, etc) : office=notary

service?  Though that conflicts slightly with the service=* for
describing a highway=service...

-Alex Mauer “hawke”



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Re: [OSM-talk] Public notary (Map feature POI proposal)

[Pieren]

I suggested some time ago to use a new general key for such things
(when it's not really an amenity, a shop or a leisure like for
lawyers, architects, designers, etc) : office=notary

Pieren

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Re: [OSM-talk] Public notary (Map feature POI proposal)

[Ulf Lamping]

Am 05.01.2010 17:41, schrieb Valent Turkovic:
> I have found that only Turks have public notary as mapping feature
> (amenity=notary)
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tr:Map_Features
>
> Do you think we should make this a official mapping feature?

No, OSMDoc tells us that it is used only two times "on the whole planet".

Map Features should probably tell you what tags are in use, not what 
people think should be in use in the future.

> What is the correct way making amenity=notary an official mapping feature?

Use it more often in real mapping life :-)


I'm not against amenity=notary, but it really has to be used more often ...

Regards, ULFL

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Contributor Terms (was Re: Copyright Assignment)

[Matt Amos]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 12:40 PM, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> We discussed this on IRC just before Christmas and it was suggested that
> simply removing (ii) would fix most of the issues. I would be very happy to
> see this happen. I think Matt was going to suggest this to LWG.
>
> So from here it looks to me as if LWG is taking note of people's suggestions
> just as it should be. But perhaps someone from LWG could confirm how/if the
> Contributor Terms might be revised in the light of these two suggestions.

yeah, it's on the (ever growing) list. unfortunately due to the
holiday season and us all being volunteers with other commitments on
our time, LWG hasn't had a full meeting since before christmas. full
service will resume shortly, though ;-)

cheers,

matt

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Copyright Assignment

[Matt Amos]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 10:04 AM, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The purpose of the share-alike principle is to enable derived work to be fed
> back into the main body.

that's your opinion. my opinion is that the purpose of share alike is
to allow data to be remixed, mashed-up or otherwise modified as long
as it's available under the original license. feeding back is a side
effect which many projects (e.g: FSF) do perfectly well without.

cheers,

matt

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[OSM-talk] Public notary (Map feature POI proposal)

[Valent Turkovic]

I have found that only Turks have public notary as mapping feature
(amenity=notary)
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tr:Map_Features

Do you think we should make this a official mapping feature?
What is the correct way making amenity=notary an official mapping feature?

Cheers!

-- 
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http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
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Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu

[Emilie Laffray]

2010/1/5 andrzej zaborowski 

>
> So I don't have any answer to the question of how to join forces with
> openmaps.eu.  There's one practical suggestion that I'd like to make:
>

Unless they remove their NC (Non Commercial Use Only) clause, colloborating
with openmaps.eu is a non sequitur.

Emilie Laffray
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Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu

[andrzej zaborowski]

2010/1/5 Jean-Marc Liotier :
> As you can see, osm and omp is created roughly parallel in time, but if
> we look back to the root (turistautak.hu) we're "older" than osm.
> And we have different aims as we can see.
> - our primary aim is to create maps for portable gps devices. We have
> routable maps for gps equipments from the beginning (now they are
> searchable as well)
> - we focus on quality, not quantity. Your graph shows that osm have
> millions of track points but do you know about its accuracy and
> actuality? We're trying to create maps as accurate as possible, and we
> do not use every track we get, we use only what we're sure of quality
> about. And a less map area gives a bigger chance to control the
> actuality of map data.
> - we're less wiki-like: not anyone can draw into maps. Map can be edited
> only after a short training course where map editors learn a lot of
> rules how to draw maps. This is for quality, again.
> - osm develops general-purpose technologies (file format, compiler,
> etc). We use existing components where it is possible (mp format,
> mapedit, cgpsmapper, etc..)
> - omp is currently topo and road map as well but hiking-related things
> are more significant while osm is more road-like as we can see.

I see a lot of similarity with a project called UMP which makes a map
of Poland and surroundings, for the Garmin devices, and has all the
properties that you listed:
 * It's older than OSM,
 * It uses the mp format,
 * It has more access control for the Db (their database has a form of
an actual CVS repo with text files - no kidding)
 * They use mapedit, cgpsmapper etc.
 * They are all about correct routing,

They do however have some wonderfully detailed data with all kinds of
different map features as we do in OSM, the mp format doesn't have
freeform tagging, but they're extending the set numerical codes in the
db practically every other day.

I notice there's some analogy also in their approach to mapping, it's
more practical, fewer dilemmas about the tagging, but also less care
about the "free data" aspect of the project -- while they use
CC-by-SA, they apparently sometimes copy from printed maps and other
sources (though it's hard to tell because there's no source= tag, only
a note here and there), and some of the software they use is Ms
Windows-only -- this is the thing that attracted me in OSM, that the
culture is much like in opensource projects and at the same time 99%
of what we use is also opensource.

So the current situation is they know about OSM, we know about them,
but we don't have real cooperation.  There's a consensus that the aims
of the two projects are different.  One reason that we didn't try very
hard to join forces is probably that we still have very little data to
offer to them, their map is more complete at the moment.

There are imports being done into OSM, in fact more than half of the
data in Poland currently in OSM comes from them.  The situation isn't
clear about what will happen when we relicense, I'm personally still
hoping for some collaboration at some point in the future.  There are
also some very low scale imports in the opposite direction, and they
also are using OSM data for some countries other than Poland so that
they can have at least *some* routing there, + a complete mapnik-based
slippymap.

So I don't have any answer to the question of how to join forces with
openmaps.eu.  There's one practical suggestion that I'd like to make:

Since openmaps.eu use the mp format, the objects in the source files
probably have no unique IDs of any kind.  In OSM every object has an
id.  I'd suggest adding an ID tag to the file format and assigning a
unique number to every single object -- the mapedit program should
preserve those tags when the mp files are edited, I think (I've never
used it since it's for windows, but I know the format because I wrote
a converter for OSM).  The identifiers are really useful when you want
to merge two databases in some way and I really regret that we haven't
asked UMP to do that.  The imports would create some correspondence
between records in the two databases, and any further edits to any of
the two databases could later be automatically applied to the other
one (perhaps only with some simple approval of a human operator).

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Vertical ways (staircase)

[Lester Caine]

Ture Pålsson wrote:
> How should I map a staircase connecting a bridge to a street below? My
> initial thought was to approximate it with a vertical way with
> highway=steps, but is it even possible to have a vertical way? I.e,
> can you have two nodes at the same lat/lon but with different layers?
> (Do nodes even have layers?) Or should I try to map the actual
> zigzagging/spiralling of the steps? But that, too, leaves me with the
> question of how to map things that project on the same spot on the
> ground. Cheat completely and map it as a steep, but not vertical, way?
> 
> The route in [1] would be considerably shorter if the router "knew"
> that there are stairs between Norrbackagatan and the bridge.

Just as we are discussing how to get 2d shapes linked to ways, you come up with 
the perfect argument for 3d models ;)
There does need to be SOME level information in the tagging. The top end has to 
be on a level above the bottom, and the ways that are linking together 
obviously 
pass one another in different planes. A short diagonal way between the two will 
provide routing data, but while the ends may in practice be directly above on 
another, offsetting them in the area occupied by the steps gets around the 
editor limitations?

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk//
Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php

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[OSM-talk] New "Highways" view in OSM Inspector

[Jochen Topf]

Hi!

The OSM Inspector (tools.geofabrik.de/osmi) just got a new "Highways" view.
It shows problems with highway types, names, refs and some other tags such
as oneway and maxspeed.

http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/?view=highways

Doc is in the wiki at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Inspector/Views/Highways

Have fun!

Jochen
-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vertical ways (staircase)

[andrzej zaborowski]

2010/1/5 Ture Pålsson :
> How should I map a staircase connecting a bridge to a street below? My
> initial thought was to approximate it with a vertical way with
> highway=steps, but is it even possible to have a vertical way? I.e,

It isn't really.  I'd use a single, short highway=steps way, if one
endpoint of it has layer=0 (or none) and the other has layer=1 then
it's implied that it's in some way vertical.  For all the use cases I
can think of (in routing), the single way is good enough.

> can you have two nodes at the same lat/lon but with different layers?

Yes, but only by the means of layer= tag.  It makes editing harder
when there are overlapping nodes, but I guess in some situations
that's the only way to map something.

> (Do nodes even have layers?) Or should I try to map the actual
> zigzagging/spiralling of the steps? But that, too, leaves me with the
> question of how to map things that project on the same spot on the
> ground.

It's possible, but not very useful, I'd just "cheat" as you called it.

I'd love to see OpenStreetMap go into the third dimension (perhaps as
a separate project) building the map or model of the world like it is
actually, but I've been thinking a little about it and I'm happy nodes
only have a lat and lon right now.  If nodes or objects had elevations
and/org heights you'd actually have to put some number in there
whenever you draw node, and 99% of the times I map an object I don't
know it's altitude, nor height.  We'd end up with the most inaccurate
map db ever made.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

[Ulf Lamping]

Am 05.01.2010 15:17, schrieb Anthony:
> I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law.  What I suggest is
> not acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there is.
>
> So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken.  One
> brief attempt pointed to EU database law, which 1) hasn't been shown to
> apply in Australia; and 2) hasn't been shown to apply to all instances
> of copying anyway.

So we'll end up with a map only being legally usable in Australia. Fine 
for you, but not a goal that I have.

> What we're left with is some sort of vague "Pascal's Wager" type
> admonishment - "I have absolutely no evidence for my claims, but you
> have to follow what I say anyway because not doing so would be
> infinitely bad."  I don't buy that crap.

So unless a mapper was drawn to bancrupt at court, you still won't agree 
that there might be a problem.

If you don't "buy that crap" that's completely your thing.

If you don't want to follow the rules that this community has set for 
itself (even if you don't really agree), it's up to you to start your 
own shiny new mapping project.

Regards, ULFL

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

[Anthony]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 12:23 AM, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Anthony  wrote:
>
>> > And I fail to see how carrying out a pilgrimage to the street in
>> question changes anything.
>>
>>>
>> It certainly builds confidence that the names you're entering are correct.
>>
>
> A couple of people have tried to sneak this argument in. Physically
> visiting streets may have some side benefits in terms of accuracy,
> additional mapping etc. But that's a separate issue. The only question at
> issue here is copyright infringement.
>

Then you're asking it in the wrong place.  If you want advice on what
is/isn't copyright infringement, you need a lawyer, not a mailing list.

I thought this thread was about what we should/shouldn't be adding in to
OSM.  There are multiple issues there - copyright infringement is only one
of them.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 4:25 AM, John Smith wrote:

> But he's not suggesting legal methods, he's suggesting inflicting
> copyinfringement and/or breach of contract on OSM, the kind of thing
> where even if you are in the right the other side can bankrupt you
> before you ever get close to winning.
>

Really?  Where?  What laws are being suggested to be broken?

I certainly don't suggest blatantly breaking the law.  What I suggest is not
acting as though there is a law when you have no evidence that there is.

So far no one has shown me the law that is supposedly being broken.  One
brief attempt pointed to EU database law, which 1) hasn't been shown to
apply in Australia; and 2) hasn't been shown to apply to all instances of
copying anyway.

What we're left with is some sort of vague "Pascal's Wager" type
admonishment - "I have absolutely no evidence for my claims, but you have to
follow what I say anyway because not doing so would be infinitely bad."  I
don't buy that crap.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Some time ago ...

[Aun Johnsen]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 1:29 PM, Ulf Lamping  wrote:
> Am 04.01.2010 18:25, schrieb Aun Johnsen:
>>
>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Ulf Lamping > > wrote:
>>
>>    Now ...
>>    In this area we have a lot of mappers, activities like mapping parties,
>>    fair booths, local press contacts, ... in other words: we have a
>>    community.
>>    On the software side: We have good aerial imagery from Yahoo! (and
>>    others), Servers are pretty stable, tools are usable, ...
>>
>> I see a lot of activity from the German community, I know that Brazil is
>> somewhat behind in the track, and we will probably continue to be behind
>> for quite some time. We have still not been able to get any good press
>> coverage even though we as a community have sent out two press releases
>> (from the entire community), I guess that will come as the community
>> grows and we get more on the map. Maybe the German community have some
>> advice to how we can do it better?
>
> Maybe that's partially because there's a vital computer geek community here
> in germany, that helped with the start ;-)
>
> I'm really not an expert on press contacts, I'll try anyway to remember the
> story and correlate it with the OSM state in germany at that time - because
> I think this is important here. Please correct me anyone if I remember it
> wrong.
>
>
> IIRC ...
>
> a) The first german press article I've seen (beside some blogs) were on a
> geek computer magazine, the "Linux Magazin". This magazine concentrates on
> free and open source themes, so it was natural for them to report about OSM.
> At that time a lot of germany was still "almost empty" with the "exception
> of a few spots".
>
> b) Later on, the more general purpose computer magazine "c't" (and "iX"),
> reported about OSM. Some cities were already well mapped/usable, e.g.
> Karlsruhe.
>
> c) Then general media "Spiegel", regional TV, ... made stories about OSM,
> which resulted in a big rush of new mappers and new map data. At that time,
> several larger (especially university) cities were already mapped well.
>
>
> Looking at the brazil map (Rio, Sao Paulo, Belo Horizonte), I guess you are
> somewhere between a) and b) in brazil.
>
> Hopefully this gives you an idea which kind of media to contact [1].
>
>> P.S: A few of us are working on translating the wiki to Portuguese, in a
>> hope that this can attract more mappers, I have in that work noticed
>> that there are some pages documented in German only, if the German
>> community could be so helpfull to give English translations, than we
>> would be able to translate more pages to Portuguese (the few words I
>> know in German is not worth mentioning in public).
>
> A lot of people here in germany are at least able to read an english wiki
> article. However, there are enough that won't, so there are some german
> pages :-)
>
> Several years ago when I went to brazil, I was confused how little the
> number of english speaking people really was. Even the reception of one of
> the larger hotels in Juiz de Fora (population: ~50) wasn't able to speak
> english - resulted in funny conversations ;-)
>
>
> If you have a list of articles in question, I can post it on the german list
> and ask for help. No promises though.
>
> Regards, ULFL
>
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Writing_a_press_release
>

>From the top of my head I know for a fact that historic=manor english
page is a link to german page, I have posted a request of translation
on the discussion, also several power tags are well documented in
German and mostly stubs in english, I'll see if I can make a more
complete list tonight, it is not really the desired activity during
business hours.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Some time ago ...

[Ulf Lamping]

Am 04.01.2010 18:25, schrieb Aun Johnsen:
>
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2010 at 4:47 PM, Ulf Lamping  > wrote:
>
> Now ...
> In this area we have a lot of mappers, activities like mapping parties,
> fair booths, local press contacts, ... in other words: we have a
> community.
> On the software side: We have good aerial imagery from Yahoo! (and
> others), Servers are pretty stable, tools are usable, ...
>
> I see a lot of activity from the German community, I know that Brazil is
> somewhat behind in the track, and we will probably continue to be behind
> for quite some time. We have still not been able to get any good press
> coverage even though we as a community have sent out two press releases
> (from the entire community), I guess that will come as the community
> grows and we get more on the map. Maybe the German community have some
> advice to how we can do it better?

Maybe that's partially because there's a vital computer geek community 
here in germany, that helped with the start ;-)

I'm really not an expert on press contacts, I'll try anyway to remember 
the story and correlate it with the OSM state in germany at that time - 
because I think this is important here. Please correct me anyone if I 
remember it wrong.


IIRC ...

a) The first german press article I've seen (beside some blogs) were on 
a geek computer magazine, the "Linux Magazin". This magazine 
concentrates on free and open source themes, so it was natural for them 
to report about OSM. At that time a lot of germany was still "almost 
empty" with the "exception of a few spots".

b) Later on, the more general purpose computer magazine "c't" (and 
"iX"), reported about OSM. Some cities were already well mapped/usable, 
e.g. Karlsruhe.

c) Then general media "Spiegel", regional TV, ... made stories about 
OSM, which resulted in a big rush of new mappers and new map data. At 
that time, several larger (especially university) cities were already 
mapped well.


Looking at the brazil map (Rio, Sao Paulo, Belo Horizonte), I guess you 
are somewhere between a) and b) in brazil.

Hopefully this gives you an idea which kind of media to contact [1].

> P.S: A few of us are working on translating the wiki to Portuguese, in a
> hope that this can attract more mappers, I have in that work noticed
> that there are some pages documented in German only, if the German
> community could be so helpfull to give English translations, than we
> would be able to translate more pages to Portuguese (the few words I
> know in German is not worth mentioning in public).

A lot of people here in germany are at least able to read an english 
wiki article. However, there are enough that won't, so there are some 
german pages :-)

Several years ago when I went to brazil, I was confused how little the 
number of english speaking people really was. Even the reception of one 
of the larger hotels in Juiz de Fora (population: ~50) wasn't able 
to speak english - resulted in funny conversations ;-)


If you have a list of articles in question, I can post it on the german 
list and ask for help. No promises though.

Regards, ULFL

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Writing_a_press_release

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[OSM-talk] Vertical ways (staircase)

[Ture Pålsson]

How should I map a staircase connecting a bridge to a street below? My
initial thought was to approximate it with a vertical way with
highway=steps, but is it even possible to have a vertical way? I.e,
can you have two nodes at the same lat/lon but with different layers?
(Do nodes even have layers?) Or should I try to map the actual
zigzagging/spiralling of the steps? But that, too, leaves me with the
question of how to map things that project on the same spot on the
ground. Cheat completely and map it as a steep, but not vertical, way?

The route in [1] would be considerably shorter if the router "knew"
that there are stairs between Norrbackagatan and the bridge.

 -- Ture

[1] 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Some time ago ...

[Aun Johnsen]

With lack of Aerial images where I live and map, and with many narrow
streets with tall buildings on each side (urban cannyon effect), I
often need 10-15 GPS tracks of the same street to have reliable data
to enter the physical road into the database. As I often don't have a
chance to drive up and down roads that many times, I tend to enter
them with only one or two tracks and adjust them multiple times as I
get more tracks. The result is that I have no idea how many tracks I
have of various roads, and wether I need to gather more tracks or not
is often unknown to me. It can happen that a road that is perfectly
alligned with 25 tracks are adjusted slightly out of possition because
of possition errors on the 26th run. Also to some extent I have to
rely on physical observations. Do the street courve? Are there gaps in
the high-raise buildings where the GPS might adjust its signal? As I
do not have a car mount for my GPS, I seldom have a chance to check
the accuracy while driving, and with the general Brazilian traffic
pattern I need to consentrate on driving and not taking too many
notes. I tend to do some manual notes while I'm at it, like
restriction signs, name of businesses, etc. I can then derive from the
phone register the address of the business and than use that as a
street name. Also I often get business cards from shops where I order
services, these I also use as references for entering street names
(Business A have its service office in Street B, I parked almost
infront of the main entrance, ergo I know where Street B is).

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Re: [OSM-talk] Some time ago ...

[Ulf Lamping]

Am 05.01.2010 08:23, schrieb Steve Bennett:
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 3:47 AM, Ulf Lamping  > wrote:
>
> P.S: All that time it was - for me - simply out of question to copy map
> data from Google or other alike sources to get free and open map data
> that will remain free and open.
>
>
> Ok, let's use the word "consult" rather than "copy". Did you ever, in
> all that time, consult Google Maps? How did you know which areas hadn't
> been mapped, but weren't empty?

That's not "copy" IMHO.

> Did you ever look up a street name that
> you'd forgotten to write down, or did you go and physically visit it again?

I've physically visit it again. There's no big deal to revisit a street, 
if you want to map the next house block a few hundred meters away from it.

In fact it's quite a good idea to revisit an area anyway, as it's almost 
impossible to get all details in one run. You'll need at least two runs 
to get all the details, very often more:

1. Get the physical "road layout" and some street names and POIs (quick)
2. Fill in the street names, more POIs (slow)
3. Fix missing names, fix POI positions, more (minor) POIs (quick)

When go out, I'll often have three areas nearby which are in one of 
these three "states".

BTW: Aerial imagery will save you only the first step: The physical road 
layout (of course, this is a great help). Street category, speed limit, 
POIs, names and all that needs to be "manually" mapped anyway.

> I feel that I/we Australians are in danger of being misrepresented, like
> we have some secret plan to simply copy data off Google Maps rather than
> obtain it legitimately. We don't. I just want to ask the question: what
> is the legal basis that says that one company's representation of a
> street name is copyright, and therefore can't be copied?

It has been really enough said about this already. If you don't like the 
reasons given, it's up to you to start your own map data project.

> As you say, back in the day, you didn't have a choice but to go and
> visit each street with a GPS. Now there are choices.

If there are reasonable legal concerns, these are not real choices IMHO.

Regards, ULFL

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Re: [OSM-talk] Cycleways wiki doc enhanced

[Richard Mann]

2010/1/4 Lauri Kytömaa 

> The national officials here are allegedly constructing a
> database for a online routing service for cycling and they have concluded
> that the information can not be described with sufficient detail for
> very accurate routing "as tags on the roads".

Routers are generally in a much better position to process tags-on-roads
into what they want than renderers are to process multiple parallel ways
(howsoever linked) into tags-on-roads.


> Just try describing this intersection (which isn't that complex, even)
> solely with tags on the "proper" roads

http://www.openstreetmap.org/?&lat=60.20853&lon=24.94616&zoom=17&layers=00B0FTF
Well you could probably do it with tags-on-roads up to the crossings, then a
cycleway linking the crossings (by the way, if you put bicycle=yes on those
crossings, they will show in green). This might generate spurious turn
instructions in a router (depending on the intelligence of the router), but
would avoid showing the cycleway in the middle of the road at lower zooms.

Richard
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Re: [OSM-talk] openmaps.eu

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

Jean-Marc Liotier wrote:
> Andreas Labres wrote:
>> Patrick from talk-at found this by chance: http://openmaps.eu/ They
>> seem to be reinventing the wheel, somehow...
> 
> I sent their proeminent members (papa71, kepenu, KiVi, peter68,
> Trackman and BigMick) a gentle enquiry through their forum's internal
> mail system; that's the best I could do for lack of any other contact
> option. We'll see if they reply.

I just received an extensive answer from Trackman (Zaka Ferenc 
) and he allowed me to forward it to 
talk@openstreetmap.org for further discussion. Please make
sure you keep his address in the cc: field of your answers as he is not
subscribed to this list.

As he points out, license compatibility (cf. 
http://openmaps.eu/copyright ) is certainly the main issue for 
collaboration. There are also issues of technical, methodological and 
organizationals differences - but I believe they could be worked over 
with proper procedures and explanations. Licensing is the much bigger 
obstacle.

Please read his explanations and tell us your thoughts about which 
possibilities may exist for collaboration between OpenStreetMap and 
Openmaps.eu and how we might get there.


 Original Message 
Date: Tue, 05 Jan 2010 09:23:51 +0100
From: Zaka Ferenc 
To: j...@liotier.org

There is a gps map project in Hungary found at turistautak.hu
(turistautak means 'hiking trails'). This project has been launched in
2003, so your question in the subject can be turned upside-down: why
openstreetmap did not join to turistautak.hu at osm's launch time... :)
So this is a joke of course, let's see some real answer.
We're map editors at tursitautak.hu since 2005 (afaik this is the year
when osm started). In 2006 january there was a need to have map of
Transylvania a neighbouring region of us. So some member of
turistautak.hu and geocaching.hu founded etp.hu a map project for
Transylvania. Other members founded slovakiamap.hu - since they lived
close to Slovakia... Both of them were topo-like maps but slowly became
general-purpose maps. (As well as turistautak.hu became too... )
In the second half of 2006 we clamped these projects (except the root,
turistautak.hu) into one and founded openmaps.eu. The main cause we
didn't join to turistautak.hu was mostly technical: we wanted to try out
some methods to share and edit maps, and to create various outputs. But
we take over the map data of Hungary daily and integrate into omp's maps.

As you can see, osm and omp is created roughly parallel in time, but if
we look back to the root (turistautak.hu) we're "older" than osm.
And we have different aims as we can see.
- our primary aim is to create maps for portable gps devices. We have
routable maps for gps equipments from the beginning (now they are
searchable as well)
- we focus on quality, not quantity. Your graph shows that osm have
millions of track points but do you know about its accuracy and
actuality? We're trying to create maps as accurate as possible, and we
do not use every track we get, we use only what we're sure of quality
about. And a less map area gives a bigger chance to control the
actuality of map data.
- we're less wiki-like: not anyone can draw into maps. Map can be edited
only after a short training course where map editors learn a lot of
rules how to draw maps. This is for quality, again.
- osm develops general-purpose technologies (file format, compiler,
etc). We use existing components where it is possible (mp format,
mapedit, cgpsmapper, etc..)
- omp is currently topo and road map as well but hiking-related things
are more significant while osm is more road-like as we can see.
Although we have somewhat different aims we've tried to collaborate with
osm. We've contacted slovakian osm member but the conversation got
stucked on licence problems (as i can remember).

We're interested in cooperation henceforward. Please tell us something
about the possibilities of cooperation from your point of view
considering of the above.

Here is our license to compare to osm's expectations.
http://openmaps.eu/copyright

Best regards,
Trackman



j...@liotier.org írta:
> Trackman,
> 
> liotier (http://openmaps.eu/user/2700) has sent you a message via
> your contact form (http://openmaps.eu/user/3/contact) at  Open Maps
> Project.
> 
> If you don't want to receive such e-mails, you can change your 
> settings at http://openmaps.eu/user/3.
> 
> Message:
> 
> Hello ! I am a member of the OpenStreetMap project, and one of us
> noticed OpenMaps. OpenStreetMap creates and provides free geographic
> data such as street maps to anyone who wants them to do whatever they
> want with it. We feel that there is much similarity between OpenMaps
> and OpenStreetMap, and we wonder why OpenMaps was started as an
> independent project. Is there a specific reason ? We really wonder
> why you decided to start what appears as a duplicated effort to us.
> We would be happy if you could tell us about it.
> 
> OpenStreetMap welcomes new idea

Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

[John Smith]

2010/1/5 Roy Wallace :
> 2) map by survey & alternate legal methods, extremely fast progress
> right now, with fairly good accuracy widespread, and for several
> years: correct the errors

I'm not disagreeing that shouldn't be done, I'm saying we shouldn't be
in such a mad rush that any means justify the ends. There is numerous
avenues we can use that don't require us to go out on each and every
street but at the same time we don't need to resort to leeching off
incorrect data either.

> Therefore it's worth at least briefly considering alternate legal
> methods, which is all that Steve is suggesting.

But he's not suggesting legal methods, he's suggesting inflicting
copyinfringement and/or breach of contract on OSM, the kind of thing
where even if you are in the right the other side can bankrupt you
before you ever get close to winning.

However that doesn't meant there aren't completely legal methods, like
emailing/writing to councils to get this information. Although it does
mean he won't get instant gratification as a result.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?

[Roy Wallace]

On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 5:51 PM, John Smith  wrote:
>
> I'm sorry, but accuracy is important to some of us, and using
> commercial data is inaccurate, visiting is one way to get correct
> information, as is contacting the council responsible for the roads.

Absolutely, but consider these scenarios:

1) map by survey only, slow progress and for several years: excellent
accuracy in dense urban areas and near to blank in other areas
2) map by survey & alternate legal methods, extremely fast progress
right now, with fairly good accuracy widespread, and for several
years: correct the errors

It isn't *entirely* clear that 1) is better than 2). E.g.
hypothetically, the immediate wider (albeit arguably less accurate)
coverage resulting from 2) may lead to increased popularity and an
influx of new mappers, making it faster overall to correct the errors.

Therefore it's worth at least briefly considering alternate legal
methods, which is all that Steve is suggesting.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Some time ago ... (was: Sourcing street names - what's the policy, and why?)

[John Smith]

2010/1/5 Steve Bennett :
> I feel that I/we Australians are in danger of being misrepresented, like we

I don't think Roy and I share your same concerns to the extent we need
to copy erronus information from others, the ends don't justify the
means.

> legal basis that says that one company's representation of a street name is
> copyright, and therefore can't be copied?

In terms of google you have both contract law and copyright law.

> As you say, back in the day, you didn't have a choice but to go and visit
> each street with a GPS. Now there are choices.

You have choices with street names too, you don't have to go there you
can email/write to the relevent councils like Liz and others have done
and obtain the information without breaching anyone elses moral or
legal rights.

Google doesn't owe you a cent why do you think you can just take from
them because they publish tiles on the net?

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