Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread Anders Arnholm 
Malcolm Herring skrev 2012-07-25 10:47:
>
> So it is nothing to do with 'official' languages. The map needs to
> correspond with the observed real world. If street signs in Ukraine are
> in Russian, then the tagged name should be in Russian. When the signs
> are changed to Ukrainian, then that is the time to re-tag.
>
This sure is what is most helpfull for us travelers to any area, if the
name: is what the sigh shows, not what the parlament think the sign
should show.

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[OSM-talk] Problem with redaction layer of osminspector in JOSM

2012-07-27 Thread Pavel Melnikov 
Hello everyone!
Today I tried to add geofabrik osminspector redactionbot layers into JOSM,
and followed procedures described in
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_Inspector/WxS . However, it did not
work. JOSM loads some PNGs, but they do not contain any imagery, but text
"Server Error, we are sorry for inconvenence 13." and similar stuff.
Can anyone share a working WMS link for JOSM? Or help some other way?

PS My WMS link is now wms:
http://tools.geofabrik.de/osmi/views/bot/wxs?FORMAT=image/png&VERSION=1.1.1&SERVICE=WMS&REQUEST=GetMap&Layers=bot_line_deleted,bot_line_modified,bot_line_superseded,bot_line_deleted_cp,bot_point_deleted,bot_line_modified_cp,bot_point_modified,bot_point_superseded&STYLES=&SRS=EPSG:4326&WIDTH={width}&HEIGHT={height}&BBOX={bbox}and
it does not work.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Tools to help find areas corrupted by redaction

2012-07-27 Thread Maarten Deen 

Alan Mintz wrote:
For those of you that have been doing cleanup after the redaction, are you 
noticing anything in particular that could benefit from automated help?


- A large quantity of unconnected nodes. I've see a number of cases where the
way is gone but the nodes of that way are still present
- ways without tags or missing highway tags (that is probably more difficult to
automate)

Maarten



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Re: [OSM-talk] Tools to help find areas corrupted by redaction

2012-07-27 Thread Jonathan Waller 

On 27/07/12 22:14, Toby Murray wrote:

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Alan Mintz
 wrote:


...


I thought there was actually a debug tool that showed crossing ways
but I can't seem to find it now. I may have been thinking of the OSMI
"Geometry" layer but it doesn't show crossing ways.


The keepright tool at http://keepright.ipax.at has an "intersections 
without junctions" category.


Jonathan

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tools to help find areas corrupted by redaction

2012-07-27 Thread Toby Murray 
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 3:28 PM, Alan Mintz
 wrote:
>
> Another thing is that these sawtooth ways tend to cross other ways without
> intersection, so this is a good indicator, too.
>
> Lastly, I'm noticing orphan nodes in areas that need work.

Yes, and this can be tricky to pick out when you're just eyeballing an
area. I've been using the JOSM validator after doing a CTRL-a to
select everything I have downloaded. It is kind of noisy but just
looking at crossing ways and orphan nodes seems to find a lot of
problems.

I thought there was actually a debug tool that showed crossing ways
but I can't seem to find it now. I may have been thinking of the OSMI
"Geometry" layer but it doesn't show crossing ways.

> Other ideas?

I have been using my map of ways with a oneway tag but no highway tag
to find problem areas. Chances are wherever one of these ways exists,
there are probably more things to fix nearby. I just updated it last
night. Adding it as an imagery layer in JOSM lets me zoom in and
download a problem area quickly.

http://ni.kwsn.net/~toby/OSM/maps/redaction.html

Toby

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[OSM-talk] Tools to help find areas corrupted by redaction

2012-07-27 Thread Alan Mintz 
For those of you that have been doing cleanup after the redaction, are you 
noticing anything in particular that could benefit from automated help?


For example, in an area I looked at yesterday, I saw a bunch of "sawtooth" 
formations, where a way would depart drastically from the true path of the 
road, then come back to a node on the road, then a node away again, etc. 
These nodes that were off the road were presumably those that had been 
moved to the correct alignment by a non-agreeing user, and were therefore 
moved back to their wrong locations by the bot.


Example: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=33.744884&lon=-117.608049&zoom=18&layers=M


I think these could be identified programmatically in a similar way as a 
smoothing algorithm: Calc the bearing b12 from p1 to p2, b23 from p2 to p3, 
and b24 from p2 to p4. If b12 is closer to b24 than b23 by a specified 
amount, the line is smoother without p3 in it, and is possibly corrupt. A 
little mathematical creativity can avoid having to calc the actual bearings 
with arctan on every point, since it's really the relative ratios that 
matter and not the actual values of the angles themselves.


Another thing is that these sawtooth ways tend to cross other ways without 
intersection, so this is a good indicator, too.


Lastly, I'm noticing orphan nodes in areas that need work.

These would make good layer(s) in the Geofabrik OSM Inspector.

Other ideas?

--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread Peter Wendorff 

Am 27.07.2012 17:46, schrieb john whelan:
Locally we have English and French.  Unfortunately on one local street 
has the following physical signs on it "Prestone", "Prestone Drive", 
"Prom Prestone Dr" depending which sign you look at.


Personally I prefer the name:en etc it makes it easier to 
electronically search for the name.  Having to know that to find the 
road you have to enter "Prom Prestone Dr" or "Promenade Prestone 
Drive" makes it much more difficult for people to use the map.
But as long as the name:en etc are given additionally to name that 
shouldn't matter, as that should be found, too. Else I would consider 
that a bug in the search routine/software.


regards
Peter
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[OSM-talk] Fwd: [talk-au] Our friends down under need our help

2012-07-27 Thread Richard Weait 
A "thank you" from a Perth mapper for the armchair mapping help from abroad.

There are many places where can help other mappers if you have a few
spare cycles.


-- Forwarded message --
From: Arie Paap 
Date: Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [talk-au] Our friends down under need our help
To: Andy Robinson 
Cc: talk-gb-westmidla...@openstreetmap.org, talk...@openstreetmap.org


Hi all,

On 20 July 2012 14:57, Andy Robinson  wrote:
> GB mappers, our Aussie friends need our help. Large swathes of Australia
> have been decimated by the redaction process so if like me your UK area is
> looking pretty clear please turn some attention to fixing some areas down
> under. If you do I'd suggest you subscribe to, or keep an eye on, the
> archive of the talk-au mailing list where requests and discussion on the
> redaction process are being made by some mappers.
>


I've been fixing up parts of Perth where I live and thought I'd share
a few thoughts.

Large parts of Perth and the rest of WA were in decent shape after the
redaction. The worst effects are a lot of major roads which were
originally mapped by contributors who declined the new CTs or where
intersections and stretches of road were refined by tracing when
Nearmap became available; and In some areas suburb size areas were
originally traced by one contributor and have been largely lost. I
think also a lot of rural towns and rural highways are in poor shape.

However, I've seen a lot change over the last week. Personally, I've
repaired major roads in the southern suburbs (and filled in gaps in
adjoining residential roads) as well as try to repair the roads
through the city centre. Other local mappers have certainly been doing
there bit too. But why I'm writing this email is to say Thank You to
those UK and european mappers who've helped tracing roads in the
suburbs and rural towns and generally fixing up the map. While I don't
monitor edits throughout the Perth region via tools I have seen
problem areas be patched up and, wondering who might be working there,
found several UK contributors who've done significant work even though
none of us Perth residents have spoken up to ask for help or offer
guidance to support your efforts.

So once again Thank You.

So I'd like to say a few things about the map in Perth and WA.
 - First off the coverage is improving and I'm sure we'll get back to
most roads on the map pretty soon (particularly within greater Perth
region).
 - Street name coverage however has never been great and needs a few
more locals to survey. It's something I haven't done much of lately
but needs attention.
 - Road classification is a mess. It's something that's quietly
frustrated me ever since I discovered OSM and I really don't know
where to start to improve the situation.

And lastly: a few areas that could do with attention from anyone who
has time and energy to help:
 - Mandurah: http://osm.org/go/swll4QbE-
 - Pinjarra: http://osm.org/go/swlpYFKv-
 - Dunsborough: http://osm.org/go/swKnigAZ-
 - Carnarvon: http://osm.org/go/s1DjTuMg--
 - Broome: http://osm.org/go/tjy9_zp

I believe these areas have good Bing coverage and don't seem to have
much recent local activity (post redaction).
All your help is greatly appreciated.

Possibly Armadale: http://osm.org/go/sww6u5Qv-- and Midland:
http://osm.org/go/swxurea9-- could be included in this list though
these areas seem to have active local people so maybe not necessary.

There are many other rural towns which don't have complete street
coverage including South Hedland, Esperance, Gingin to name a few but
I think many of those weren't complete to start with.

I hope no one living and mapping in these towns is concerned about me
mentioning them here.

Kindest regards,

Arie.

P.S. Andy, if this mail doesn't make it through to
talk-gb-westmidlands would you please forward it on.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread john whelan 
Locally we have English and French.  Unfortunately on one local street has
the following physical signs on it "Prestone", "Prestone Drive", "Prom
Prestone Dr" depending which sign you look at.

Personally I prefer the name:en etc it makes it easier to electronically
search for the name.  Having to know that to find the road you have to
enter "Prom Prestone Dr" or "Promenade Prestone Drive" makes it much more
difficult for people to use the map.

Cheerio John

On 27 July 2012 10:06, Ben Laenen  wrote:

> On Friday 27 July 2012 04:56:43 Tirkon wrote:
> > >Rue de
> > >
> > >  Quelque Chose
> > >  Iets
> > >   straat
> > >
> > >With names it can be compacted as
> > >
> > >Avenue
> > >   John Doe
> > >  laan
> >
> > For me as a non native dutch/french this looks obfuscating.
> >
> > Is this the way you find it on the streetname-signs or only in OSM?
>
> No, those are street signs (also, not all street signs will put them like
> that
> either). In OSM it's either "name=Avenue John Doe - John Doelaan" or the
> other
> way around.
>
>
> > I mapped the street names in Sint-Genesius-Rode - Rhode-Saint-Genèse.
> > I heard people nearly only speaking french there and was not aware of
> > the heavy language dispute at that time. Thus I took the direction
> > french - dutch. (As well I filled in the name.fr and name:nl tag.)
> > Then a man living nearby told me that the belgium OSM community had
> > decided to write first the upper and then the lower sign into the name
> > tag. Thus he changed everything to dutch-french, which is the order
> > from the signs. After that other people changed some street back to
> > french-dutch. Since them I decided not to map there any more. ;-) I do
> > not want to be part of the dispute.
>
> Officially that municipality is Flemish, so Dutch-speaking, but has
> facilities
> for French. So according to the rules it should be Dutch - French. But yes,
> this creates some cases where the majority of the population is native in
> the
> other language...
>
> Ben
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread Ben Laenen 
On Friday 27 July 2012 04:56:43 Tirkon wrote:
> >Rue de
> >
> >  Quelque Chose
> >  Iets
> >   straat
> >
> >With names it can be compacted as
> >
> >Avenue
> >   John Doe
> >  laan
> 
> For me as a non native dutch/french this looks obfuscating.
> 
> Is this the way you find it on the streetname-signs or only in OSM?

No, those are street signs (also, not all street signs will put them like that 
either). In OSM it's either "name=Avenue John Doe - John Doelaan" or the other 
way around.


> I mapped the street names in Sint-Genesius-Rode - Rhode-Saint-Genèse.
> I heard people nearly only speaking french there and was not aware of
> the heavy language dispute at that time. Thus I took the direction
> french - dutch. (As well I filled in the name.fr and name:nl tag.)
> Then a man living nearby told me that the belgium OSM community had
> decided to write first the upper and then the lower sign into the name
> tag. Thus he changed everything to dutch-french, which is the order
> from the signs. After that other people changed some street back to
> french-dutch. Since them I decided not to map there any more. ;-) I do
> not want to be part of the dispute.

Officially that municipality is Flemish, so Dutch-speaking, but has facilities 
for French. So according to the rules it should be Dutch - French. But yes, 
this creates some cases where the majority of the population is native in the 
other language...

Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk] FYI - Automated edit: footway -> sidewalk

2012-07-27 Thread Gregory 
On 26 July 2012 13:29, Frederik Ramm  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
> On 07/26/2012 02:08 PM, Gregory wrote:
>
>> I was being a bit lazy/rushed and didn't see the login button.
>> That forum could really do with some UI design work if anyone had oddles
>> of time to work on it.
>>
>
> Sorry but all the user interface experts are busy redesigning the OSM web
> page.
>
> Since about three years ago.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> They must have got lost/eaten, let's send in another UI expert to find
them.

-- 
Gregory
o...@livingwithdragons.com
http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread Cartinus 
On 07/27/2012 04:56 AM, Tirkon wrote:
> Ben Laenen  wrote:
>> With names it can be compacted as
>>
>> Avenue
>>   John Doe
>>  laan
> 
> For me as a non native dutch/french this looks obfuscating.
> 
> Is this the way you find it on the streetname-signs or only in OSM?
> For non native users of the map I would prefer to find the name tag in
> OSM exactly as on the signs. Because i.e. a foreign Chinese or Russian
> cannot read latin letters he only has the chance to compare the two
> pictures from the map and the signs. And if the naming is shortened he
> can only see different pictures.



-- 
---
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread Lester Caine 

Miloš Komarčević wrote:

  wrote:

>
>Again: I'm against lang for that purpose.
>Examples:
>
>name=London
>lang=en
>name:de=London
>
>compared to:
>name=London
>name:en=London
>name:de=London
>

As far as I understand, this is not what is being proposed, but

name=London (or to be auto-generated from info below)
name:en=London
name:es=Londra
name:fr=Londres
lang=en


Exactly ... so that translations have a clean set of name:xxx direct from the 
tag without having to work out if the unidentified name is in some particular 
language, or it may be a combination of two anyway ...


--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread Miloš Komarčević 
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 9:02 AM, Lester Caine  wrote:
> That is the lang=xx tag for a higher level area, but we probably need
> official_lang and local_lang :)
>

I don't think this is a good idea. One tag that treats all the
languages the same is best.

Usually, when the use of the minority language is regulated by some
law in a particular administrative are, it becomes the _offical_
language and is treated exactly the same os the majority language. So
there is no distinction between them, they are both (or 3 or 4)
_official_ in that particular area. This scheme of 'official' vs.
'local' is confusing and would still leave the door open to edit wars
etc.

M

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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread Miloš Komarčević 
On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 10:43 AM, Peter Wendorff
 wrote:
>
> Again: I'm against lang for that purpose.
> Examples:
>
> name=London
> lang=en
> name:de=London
>
> compared to:
> name=London
> name:en=London
> name:de=London
>

As far as I understand, this is not what is being proposed, but

name=London (or to be auto-generated from info below)
name:en=London
name:es=Londra
name:fr=Londres
lang=en

M

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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread Peter Wendorff 

Am 27.07.2012 10:02, schrieb Lester Caine:

Frederik Ramm wrote:

So, my questions to you are


I think there is a broad concensus

1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in 
Russian (with
appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official 
language in

Ukraine is Ukrainian?

The raw name= tag shows what will be seen standing at the location.
It would help if there was also a lang=xx so we know what IS being used!

Again: I'm against lang for that purpose.
Examples:

name=London
lang=en
name:de=London

compared to:
name=London
name:en=London
name:de=London

Benefits:
- There aren't more tags involved,
- It's less error prone or better: it's equally error prone, but better 
to detect errors, as in the first alternative it's not possible to 
detect an error, if anyone only changes lang to any other language.

- Backward-compatibility to name is identical - just use it.
- Editor software could support it by enforcing users to add a language 
for the name-attribute.


regards
Peter

P.S.: I know that this does not solve the variants where more than one 
name is set to the name tag now, but I would leave that to other tags - 
e.g. name:format=ru - cr - en (de)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Naming disputes in Ukraine

2012-07-27 Thread Lester Caine 

Frederik Ramm wrote:

So, my questions to you are


I think there is a broad concensus


1. The concrete question: Should all name tag in the Crimea be in Russian (with
appropriate name:uk tags of course), even though the official language in
Ukraine is Ukrainian?

The raw name= tag shows what will be seen standing at the location.
It would help if there was also a lang=xx so we know what IS being used!


2. The general question: What exactly is the "local" language in an area - can
we come up with some rule of thumb that says "if X% of people in an area of at
least Y sq km use the language..." or so?
That is the lang=xx tag for a higher level area, but we probably need 
official_lang and local_lang :)


--
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