Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Reporting Attribution Issues on Mapbox maps

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Mikel Maron  wrote:

>
> > Webpages not hosted by Mapbox that are
> > using Mapbox tiles with
> > OSM-derived data would be responsible for
> > their own attribution, so
> > you'd need to contact them like with any other site.
>
> Actually, our support team will work to resolve attribution issues with
> maps using Mapbox tiles anywhere. Expect that this will resolve issues more
> expediently, since we likely have contact directly to responsible people
> for the site.
>
>
Glad to hear it.


> I believe Serge was wondering about attribution issues with sites using
> tiles or data not from Mapbox. That would include tiles from OSM.org.
>

I was specifically asked about a MapBox user who goes to MapBox, downloads
a map and then does not have proper attribution.

I'm glad to see that MapBox is pledging to handle these issues.

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Reporting Attribution Issues on Mapbox maps

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Tue, Jun 14, 2016 at 10:24 PM, Mikel Maron  wrote:

>
> > Webpages not hosted by Mapbox that are
> > using Mapbox tiles with
> > OSM-derived data would be responsible for
> > their own attribution, so
> > you'd need to contact them like with any other site.
>
> Actually, our support team will work to resolve attribution issues with
> maps using Mapbox tiles anywhere. Expect that this will resolve issues more
> expediently, since we likely have contact directly to responsible people
> for the site.
>
>
Glad to hear it.


> I believe Serge was wondering about attribution issues with sites using
> tiles or data not from Mapbox. That would include tiles from OSM.org.
>

I was specifically asked about a MapBox user who goes to MapBox, downloads
a map and then does not have proper attribution.

I'm glad to see that MapBox is pledging to handle these issues.

- Serge
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Re: [Talk-us] Reporting Attribution Issues on Mapbox maps

[Serge Wroclawski]

> Hey -- we've set up a support point for attribution issues on Mapbox
> hosted maps. Let us know if you spot something, and we'll work to fix.
>
> (Note, we won't be handling attribution issues on non-Mapbox hosted maps)
>
>
That's wonderful. All third party mapping providers should have a system
like this. And it would be even more awesome if we could see the resolution
and what an awesome job that Mapbox is doing in handling these issues as
they come up. It's good to see Mapbox stepping up and being a leader on
this.

But I'm a little concerned about non-MB hosted maps. If not this URL, where
can we report  attribution issues related to non-hosted Mapbox maps and
can you link to that other place we can report attribution issues related
to that other kind of customer from the same web page?

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Reporting Attribution Issues on Mapbox maps

[Serge Wroclawski]

> Hey -- we've set up a support point for attribution issues on Mapbox
> hosted maps. Let us know if you spot something, and we'll work to fix.
>
> (Note, we won't be handling attribution issues on non-Mapbox hosted maps)
>
>
That's wonderful. All third party mapping providers should have a system
like this. And it would be even more awesome if we could see the resolution
and what an awesome job that Mapbox is doing in handling these issues as
they come up. It's good to see Mapbox stepping up and being a leader on
this.

But I'm a little concerned about non-MB hosted maps. If not this URL, where
can we report  attribution issues related to non-hosted Mapbox maps and
can you link to that other place we can report attribution issues related
to that other kind of customer from the same web page?

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] Gamification in Volunteered Geographic Information in regard with Contributors' Motivations

[Serge Wroclawski]

As someone who was a developer on a gamification of OSM data, I have
questions about this study...

What are the terms of the study results? Will they be released as Open
Science?

Thank you,

- Serge Wroclawski

On Wed, May 4, 2016 at 1:53 PM, Chen Chen <c226c...@uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> My name is Chen Chen and I am a Masters student working under the
> supervision of Dr. Peter Johnson in the Department of Geography and
> Environmental Management at the University of Waterloo. We are currently
> seeking volunteers from the OpenStreetMap (OSM) community to participate
> in a study that focuses on the impact of game elements on motivations to
> contribute to OSM. We would like to invite you to join our study.
>
> Participation in this study involves a web questionnaire, with a
> potential follow-up interview. The link to the web questionnaire is:
> https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/osmvgigamification. The questionnaire should
> take approximately 20 minutes of your time. This study has been reviewed
> and received ethics clearance through a University of Waterloo Research
> Ethics Committee.
>
>
>
> In appreciation of the time you have given to this study, you can enter
> your email address into a draw for a $50 Amazon Gift Card. Your odds of
> winning the prize is based on the number of individuals who participate in
> the study. The final decision about participation is yours.
>
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
>
>
> Chen Chen
>
>
>
> M.Sc. Geomatics
>
> Geospatial Innovation Laboratory
>
> Department of Geography and Environmental Management
>
> University of Waterloo
>
> c226c...@uwaterloo.ca
>
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Slack

[Serge Wroclawski]

Michal,

The client code is proprietary, and the browser is just a platform from
which to execute the code.

It's similar to running Skype's proprietary binary on Debian. Running a
proprietary application on a Free operating system does not change the
freedom of the application.

-Serge
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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Slack

[Serge Wroclawski]

Martijn,

I think your approach on this issue is spot on.

I personally think that when a project like OSM supports non-Free software,
especially ones run by external entities, it sends absolutely the wrong
message. Worse still is if we force users to use these gatekeepers to
interface with our community.

I'm happy to find tools that let us work with people together, but that
should be done with F/LOSS wherever possible.

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] Slack

[Serge Wroclawski]

Martijn,

I think your approach on this issue is spot on.

I personally think that when a project like OSM supports non-Free software,
especially ones run by external entities, it sends absolutely the wrong
message. Worse still is if we force users to use these gatekeepers to
interface with our community.

I'm happy to find tools that let us work with people together, but that
should be done with F/LOSS wherever possible.

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] A message to our friends at HOT, Peace Corps etc. about Changeset Comments

[Serge Wroclawski]

Indeed, and bringing this back from a meta-discussion to the practical
matters at hand- there are extremely good reasons for human readable
changeset comments, and good (and easy) ways to approach encouraging
them.

The reasons for them are clear- to facilitate the meta-mapping
operation- the idea that OSM is not merely a static collection of
data, but an ongoing dialog.

Activity related hashtags are great ways of capturing motivation for
editing, but do not capture intent.

So encouraging comments through examples (such as the wording in the
save dialog box) or by moving hashtags to their own tag seems like a
nice way of meeting that needs.


As for inclusivity- I agree entirely, and to be inclusive, I subscribe
to the "rising tide floats all boats" model. That is by focusing on
education and examples, by providing a positive community that
encourages good behavior as much as it discourages bad behavior, we
can get the change we need- if every OSM instruction includes a bit
about the importance of changeset comments, for example.

- Serge


On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 12:35 PM, Mikel Maron  wrote:
> While it's factually correct to say that you don't have to take part in the
> community to work with OSM, I seldom see that in practice. Missing Maps and
> HOT are deeply involved in the OSM community. When we do see this gap
> between the data and community anywhere in OSM, it's a great action to take
> on, to find ways to make our community welcoming and understandable to more
> mappers. We also need to recognize that OSM is a collection of communities,
> especially along linguistic lines, and that we need to work more to
> integrate in positive ways.
>
> -Mikel
>
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:44 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 19.11.2015 um 15:17 schrieb Paul Johnson:
>
> On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 7:54 AM, Simon Poole  wrote:
>
> This seems a bit of an odd time to announce a schism and I'm sure you didn't
> intend for your statement to come across as it just did.
>
> While rabid anti-OSMers are gaining more power and influence in HOT and MM,
>
>
> Not sure what MM is, but how can you be anti-OSM and be on the Humanitarian
> OSM Team?  Seems rather self-defeatist.
>
>
> MM == missingmaps, sorry.
>
> The point is that you can use OSM, the infrastructure and tools, as a
> convenient and free service for mapping without buying in to OSM the
> collaborative, community driven mapping project, the only thing which is
> really required is that you have to live with the licence as determined by
> the contributors. In the end not much different than if you were to buy such
> a service from ESRI.
>
> Now we don't really require buy in to OSM the project when people sign up,
> historically this has mainly caused issues with individuals and some times
> companies that have gone off on a tangent. But there is no doubt that a lot
> of things about OSM are "different", the rules, the structures (or rather
> the absence of them), how we technically do things and in the end getting
> community buy in to whatever you are doing, that are considered pesky
> annoyances and particularly a hindrance when you are on a mission to save
> the world.
>
> Simon
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads

[Serge Wroclawski]

Russ,

TIGER wasn't what I was referring to.

Please don't speak on my behalf.

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Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 6:43 AM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote:

 So who decides what is good data and what is bad data?

The community as a whole decides what is good and bad data. That starts
with the local community and moves up to the OSM community as a whole in
terms of whether or not data belongs in OSM or not.

 And visibility on the ground needs nuancing. Are we to remove
 underground pipelines/power lines?


If you were able to go underground, then you'd find such data. But if you
can't- how do you know these lines exist? You probably are using a feature
that you *can* see without being underground.


 Or boundaries?

I specifically addressed political boundaries in my previous mail.

Visible and/or verifiable might be better. A rule that needs loads of
 exceptions, is not a well formed rule.

Verifiable and visible are essentially synonymous in this discussion.

 An abandoned railway route IS an abandoned railway route, even today (i.e.
 that is current data). It WAS a working railway line. That is all
 verifiable.

Yes, but we don't map things that used to be present but are no longer
present. A road used to be here but is now a building. We don't map the old
road, only what's present now.

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Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Sat, Aug 15, 2015 at 5:19 AM, Volker Schmidt vosc...@gmail.com wrote:

 I would like to argue for a general
 do-not-remove-if-you-do-not-have-the-original-mapper's-ok-beforehand policy
 for these and similar cases.


Then you are (whether or not you intend it) arguing in favor of
dis-empowering users.

Our project's policy thusfar has been in contrast to other projects in that
each and every one of us is empowered to make changes to anything we see.

We certainly have policies in regards to quality control- if someone makes
a bad edit, we revert it, but we are always in favor of the empowerment of
our users to fix problems, rather than saying that they can't, or need to
ask permission beforehand.

Let's be very clear on the issue in this case- it's regarding a very subtle
line of objects which are in one of two states:

1. Visible on the ground but difficult to detect (ie require specialized
knowledge)

or

2. No longer visible at all.


The problem that we have in some parts of the world is a lack of data, but
in other parts, we have an abundance of bad imports, and a general
timidness around the removal of data that we can't find the owner of, which
leaves us with data that *we know is bad*, but where the individual mappers
do not feel empowered to act on because of this exact attitude of needing
to contact and work with the importer.

This leaves our project with a problem of lots of data and no one feeling
empowered to remove it.


If we continue to go down that road, we will be left in an untenable
situation of living in the data equivalent of a hoarder's house.

I'm very much in favor of mapper to mapper collaboration. In fact I am the
person who mentored the GSoC project to add changeset discussions, but I do
not believe we want to change the project's culture into one where no one
feels empowered to edit the map without first asking permission.

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads

[Serge Wroclawski]

Russ,

Instead of replying to every individual point, I'm going to address your
email as a whole, which is around the idea that deletion is different from
addition.

These discussions are nuanced. Are there going to be things one person can
identify that another can't- yes. But at the same time, I still think that
as a project, we've collectively made a decision here that we don't require
any special external knowledge or equipment to modify data.

Let me give you an example that's not about roads, but about power lines.

We have mappers that map a ton of detail about not only the locations but
the details of the power lines.

But they also explain their process online. They show how to read the
signs, what each symbol means, etc.

If I came across a power line, I should be able to use the knowledge from
the wiki page to build an understanding of the ground truth and compare
that to OSM. Then I can correct OSM as necessary.

If it's possible to document these abandoned railways in the same way, then
we can discuss an on the ground feature and compare what we see on the
ground with what's on the map.

But what we can't (or at least shouldn't) do is have only certain community
members be the source for certain features. I shouldn't have to email Alice
or Bob just because I want to edit a feature that Alice entered, or that
Bob modified.

The minute we do that, we are telling certain people that there's no way to
update or improve upon their updates, and at that point, why have the data
in OSM at all?

Improving the map can and sometimes does include the idea of removing a
feature that's no longer present, and I'm not comfortable with the idea
that we have certain special features or special members where the data
can't be modified.

And Russ, I don't think that's what you want either, ultimately. So why not
just update the wiki page to be more complete and focus on educating people
on what to look for?

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads

[Serge Wroclawski]

Brad,

How do I know if there is a razed railway there?

That is, if I'm on the ground and there's a building, how do I know it's a
razed railway?

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] stop deleting abandoned railroads

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Thu, Aug 13, 2015 at 11:09 PM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:

 It's really just a small handful of people who think it's okay not
 just to delete things, but to counsel other people to delete
 things. I didn't see it, so I deleted it is a reason for a ban, not
 an excuse against being banned.


Russ, I doubt that you mean it this way, but if you set the bar too high,
then you're essentially asking people to disprove a negative.

Of course, the defining problem here is what are these things? Are
 they something that is obvious to everyone? Or are they something that
 you can barely see as a shadow on an aerial photo, a bit of vegetation
 in the wall between fields, or a small depression in a field, or
 cinders where there ought to be sandy loam?  I will cheerfully
 acknowledge that I am expert at locating abandoned railbeds, and that
 my expert's eye can see things other people don't see. This isn't
 Wikipedia. We allow original research and expert testimony.


We allow original research and expert testimony, but we also don't require
it.

So, is OSM to contain only the obvious that everyone can see? Or
 should it contain everything that can be seen?


We have generally not required specialized knowledge or equipment for
observations in the past and I don't think that we should change that going
forward.


 I'll leave the issue of railway=dismantled where I agree that there is
 nothing to be seen for hundreds of feet for another day. Clearly we
 are talking now about railway=abandoned that can be easily discerned
 on the ground and from aerial photos.


The issue of areal photos vs on the ground observation is an interesting
one.

Is there a way to observe these tracks on the ground other than in
aggregate via areal imagery?

If so, can you post photos of ground observable features and place those
photos on the wiki page for the tag?

- Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] Keulen (was Re: Can wikidata links help fight name inflation?)

[Serge Wroclawski]

Roland,

replies in-line

On Sat, May 30, 2015 at 2:59 AM, Roland Olbricht roland.olbri...@gmx.de wrote:

 Luckily, in the offline database on my device, the object with name=Köln
 had a tag name:nl=Keulen. So I know that the sign is referring to my
 desired destination.

Depending on the device in question, it is probably not actually using
OSM data in its pure object form. If you have a Garmin, for example,
you're using some Garmin data file. Very few software programs operate
on pure OSM data without some additional processing step, even if that
step is just to extrapolate things like geometries of objects.

 Please note that
 - I had no internet connectivity in that situation, hence wikidata, any
 other external database or even non-copied OSM data was not an option.

Right, but it's likely that your map device had done some
pre-processing step. That's where a tool would know how to bring in
the Wikidata names and conflate them properly.

 So in total: Is it really a gain to remove all name:XX tags from Köln?

That's a separate issue, I think, from what we're discussing.

No one is talking about making a mass edit where all names are removed.

Let's imagine another scenario where you were on the same road and the
name you wanted was not present. If so, you would be compelled to fix
it.

But if the map you used didn't need to be updated, it already worked,
you would not be thinking about it.

 And do we want to discuss such cases again and again with overzealous
 self-appointed curators? Please note, the DWG does recognize when the
 on-the-ground rule is a rule of thumb, but others with an OSM account
 might not.

I don't understand what you mean here. Can you elaborate?

 I opt for: If a human mapper decides that it is worth adding name:XX to an
 object then let him/her do so. All annoying cases are covered by the
 mechanical edit policies, we don't need extra strict rules for name tags.

The line between human and mechanical edit can be thin. If a company
uses Mechanical Turk to make OSM edits one at a time, I would argue
that this mass edit is the same as a computerized mechanical edit.
That's why there are two issues here:

1. Is this a mechanical edit (which the DWG already addresses)
2. Is the data correct?

The second point is where Frederik is talking about, and he's simply
saying Let's go back to basics and use the on the ground verification
as a rule of thumb.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Removing a CDP

[Serge Wroclawski]

I agree with Rich Welty- if you know the area and the CDP boundary
makes no sense, then remove it.

The issue in the past has been where some people wanted to remove all of them.

- Serge

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 8:35 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote:
 I would like to remove Machias, Washington admin_level  8 since it does not
 exist as a city in Washington. It has been there for a number of years
 apparently added by a bot. I plan to leave it as a CDP locality node. There
 doesn't seem to be any chance that it will become a city and will most
 likely be annex by Lake Stevens.

 Before I do I'd like to hear people opinion about deleting these
 admin_level=8 for CDP boundaries.

 Clifford

 --
 @osm_seattle
 osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [Talk-us] Removing a CDP

[Serge Wroclawski]

Brad,

Thank you for reminding us of what the Census office says that CDPs are.

I would just add that CDPs are used in some places as de-facto cities
or towns, which is why we've rejected proposals to remove them all.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] New York, Ellis Island Boundary

[Serge Wroclawski]

I agree, the historical boundary should be removed, but we need to be
sure to show what's in what state. It's quite a little mess.

- Serge

On Sun, May 10, 2015 at 11:31 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Hi,

puzzled about

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/37573502#map=18/40.69986/-74.03910

 is this really part of today's political boundary, then (historical)
 should perhaps be removed from the name. And is there any significance
 to the funny shape (an owl sitting on a branch?) or should it rather be
 aligned with the coastline?

 Bye
 Frederik

 --
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Re: [OSM-talk] Sidewalks

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 5:29 AM, Roland Olbricht olbri...@mentzdv.de wrote:
 Dear all,

 our current pedestrian routers often don't give street names, but instead
 only instructions like look for the line on the map.

 To improve that I would like to encourage mappers to give separately mapped
 footways their proper name instead of leaving them without name.

Why do that instead of just adding a single tag to the road?


 Keep separation rules as already established:

Can you explain the benefit of this vs a single tag on the way such as
sidewalk=yes or sidewalk={left|right}?

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Security

[Serge Wroclawski]

Mike,

Have you filed a bug report on their issue tracker?

https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues

I quick search didn't reveal anything.

https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93q=cookie

- Serge

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:39 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com wrote:
 Hi All,

 I've been using iD for a bit now to make map edits. I've been reporting back
 issues with iD to Bryan including a recent discovery that when you log out
 of iD, as it doesn't clear local cookies someone else can log in as you in
 your absence. Bryan isn't interested in remedying this issue so I wondered
 what other users felt about it.

 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via the area's premier website -

 currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property 
 pets

 TCs

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Re: [OSM-talk] iD Security

[Serge Wroclawski]

Seeing the ticket, I think that the behavior here is what I'd expect
it to be, and what I think many people would expect as well.

It doesn't seem like this is related to iD ignoring cookies, but about
how you were logged into an account and authorized iD to edit on
behalf of one of them. I'm not sure that iD could really be doing
anything radically different.

This is no different than other sites which use cross site
authentication systems, ie Google, Facebook, etc.

As for it being a security issue- if you logged out of osm.org before
authenticating yourself from iD, then yes, I see a potential serious
problem, but that's not what I see reported here.

- Serge



On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:46 AM, Tom MacWright t...@macwright.org wrote:
 Please link to the ticket: https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2588

 On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 10:39 AM, pmailkeey . pmailk...@googlemail.com
 wrote:

 Hi All,

 I've been using iD for a bit now to make map edits. I've been reporting
 back issues with iD to Bryan including a recent discovery that when you log
 out of iD, as it doesn't clear local cookies someone else can log in as you
 in your absence. Bryan isn't interested in remedying this issue so I
 wondered what other users felt about it.

 --
 Mike.
 @millomweb - For all your info on Millom and South Copeland
 via the area's premier website -

 currently unavailable due to ongoing harassment of me, my family, property
  pets

 TCs

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Re: [OSM-talk] Tagging POI's - Nodes vs. areas

[Serge Wroclawski]

Mark,

You're correct- there's no set standard here. OSM uses folksonomies
which overlap and change over time.

Specifically the question of tagging amenties or shops as buildings or
nodes is one where we as a community don't have complete consensus.
The general feeling in the US from my experience is that if a building
is only used for one thing, then tag it as such.

Your example of a hospital is exactly right- and so are many schools.

But then you have places where buildings are multi-use. I live in
Manhattan and single use buildings are the exception rather than the
norm here, so amenities or shops are usually tagged as nodes within
the bounds of the building. You're right that even here, hospitals are
exceptions- so are many (but not all) schools, and many (but not all)
places of worship.

To add to the confusion, you didn't even bring up the issue of
relations. What if a hospital consists of multiple buildings? That
would be a good candidate for a multipolygon relation, in which case
you'd add the tags like name to the relation.

Getting back to your question- this is a matter of opinion but here's
what I'd do if I was you:

If the building is a hospital, tag it as such. If the hospital has
only one building, the name of the hospital is the name of the
building.

If the hospital is a subsection of a larger building (floors 1-3) then
tag it as a node.

If the hospital is multi-building, then I'd tag each building as
building=hospital, set the name to whatever the building names are
(Building 1, or Heart and Lung Center), then make a multipolygon
relation consisting of each of the hospital facility, and set the
hospital name there.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Happy weekend - join the #Mapathon!

[Serge Wroclawski]

Just want to report that the OSM NYC Meetup yesterday went great!

It's a shame that I didn't know the weather today would be a so much
warmer, but there's no way to plan for things like that weeks in
advance...

- Serge

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 3:56 PM, Alex Barth a...@openstreetmap.us wrote:
 Join this weekend at the US wide spring #mapathon. Find the official
 locations on the OpenStreetMap US blog or just join from home. All you need
 to join is tag your edits #mapathon in the changeset comment. As always,
 outdoors surveys and indoors activities are welcome!

 http://openstreetmap.us/2015/04/spring-mapathon/

 Happy weekend everyone -

 Alex

 --
 Alex Barth
 Vice President
 OpenStreetMap United States Inc.

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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Serge Wroclawski]

Eleanor,

I want to clarify some things:

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 1:06 AM, Eleanor Tutt eleanor.t...@gmail.com wrote:

 Paul - If perception of mapping in the US isn't aligning with reality, we
 probably *do* need to do a better job as a chapter board of telling the full
 story.

I believe that the story that the board tells reflect the overall
experience of the board. Paul did an analysis of the mapping activites
of the prospective board members before they were elected. Some of the
board members are not active OSM mappers, so it shouldn't come as a
surprise to anyone that people who don't do manual surveying don't
talk about manual surveying.

 I see what you mean about the blog posts, though I do think your
 interpretation is a bit harsh. For example, the mapathon post that you
 characterize as an indoor event, while it does admittedly have a photo of
 people at computers, also makes it clear that the theme for the upcoming
 mapathon is the great outdoors.

The events are characterized as Edit-a-thons and they were designed
to be run indoors. They were essentially a response from some members
of the community who felt that Mapping Parties were not for them. The
advantage of an Edit-A-Thon is that they can be run indoors (unlike
Mapping Parties), but if you look at most Edit-A-Thons going on next
week, and you look at the history of them (look at the talk-us
archives) they're still largely indoor events.

The only reason that OSM NYC runs them as outdoor events is that I
believe strongly that the experience of going out and surveying has
value- not only data quality value, but emotional value. There's value
in being connected to the place you live that can't be captured via
areal photo or governmental dataset.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Moving historic railroad ways from OSM to OpenHistoricalMap

[Serge Wroclawski]

Russ,

Replies in-line. I also mention my work in the DWG, but I'm not
representing the DWG here, just reporting on what happened.

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 12:31 AM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:
 Brad Neuhauser writes:
   So, is the argument here that we should no longer delete features that no
   longer exist, just retag them? Is the argument that we generally should
   delete such features, but railways are a special case where we shouldn't?

 Yes, they are, because railroads went continuously from point A to
 point B, and they leave their mark on the world.

This is really the core of the issue. We're not talking about unused
railroads, where the tracks remain, but ones where the track does not
exist.

 Maybe you don't see
 it. Maybe I don't see it when I add a railroad=dismantled. But maybe I
 can USE THE MAP to do field work to find it.

But if you can't discover them while on the ground, eg if there's been
a building placed over it, if the area has been paved over, or is now
used as a field, then I see two problems:

1. It's not possible to validate
2.The railroad is no longer present, by definition

Let's look at #1 in context. If there was once a battlefield in an
area, but it's now a shopping center, what clues would I look for to
determine that there was a battlefield here? If there were signs
there, that might be doable, but in the absence of it, then I have
don't know how I'd identify a battlefield from a regular field. Maybe
an expert could. They could tell me that a certain land feature was
indicative of a bunker being there once, but without training, I
couldn't find it.

As for the second problem, the way I see it is that a battlefield
that's now a shopping center is now a shopping center in OSM. I don't
think you'd disagree with me here, just as I don't think you'd
disagree that a former playground in NYC that gets demolished and a
tower put in its place is no longer a playground.

 That's why I'm making a
 fuss -- because having even dismantled railroads in OSM is
 *useful*. It's useful to me, it's useful to railfans, it's useful to
 rail-trail creators, it's useful to property managers, it's useful to
 surveyors.

I hear you. This is something you care deeply about, that you've put
enormous sweat equity into in both time and effort, and you're
concerned about your work being for naught. That's something I don't
think anyone is forgetting, but in case you feel that it's being lost
in the discussion, let me be as clear as I can in saying Thank you
for doing this hard work, Russ.

That said, and not diminishing from it, the question before us is
about whether or not this data belongs in this particular dataset, and
utility is not the only measure we use.  Propertly boundaries is
something that people have wanted, and we've resisted putting in OSM,
despite it being useful for a variety of people. Similarly, we've had
people who wanted to put in sea routes which change weekly into OSM.
That's also *possible* to map, but something that has been generally
discouraged because despite its utility, is hard to verify.

 I don't understand why people are so eager to delete accurate and
 useful data, that people have spent hours, days, weeks, months, years,
 and decades adding.

I don't see people who are eagar to delete data. I see people who want
to know what to do when they encounter a feature they can't see on the
ground.

The issue came to my attention because we had a user (User A)
complaining about another user (User B) who had deleted a few
dismantled rail lines. User A contacted the DWG regarding this and
wanted User B to have administrative action taken against them. I
looked at what User B did, looked at the changeset comments, looked at
the discussions about it, and User B reports that they went to the
area, manually surveyed it, created new data where there were unmapped
features, and removed features which they could not see with boots on
the ground.

This area isn't anywhere near me, so I was stuck using the Bing
imagery, but what I saw was that some of what was being deleted had
other features on, such as houses where the rail line had been.

In my capacity as a DWG member, I basically punted, saying We have
two users who are both acting in good faith. User A believes the
railroads should stay despite no evidence on the ground, and User B
believes that former railroads that don't have visible evidence should
be removed. Both parties are are acting within what they believe to
be community mapping standards for data in OSM, and neither one is
acting with malice.

In this thread, I see people basically playing out this same dispute.
There's no consensus between groups on this issue- both parties are
acting on what they believe to be good faith.

My *personal* view is that OHM is a far better fit for this, because
not only could you have the tracks, but you could capture data about
them, such as what rail companies they used to serve, and what speeds
they used to support. It makes 

Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Eleanor Tutt eleanor.t...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi, Serge.

 As a member of the chapter board, I feel a bit erased? misrepresented? by
 your email. It hurt, especially because I think you and I share some common
 ground about why we map and that it is important to feel a connection to a
 place.

You're right that I painted everyone with the same brush, and that
wasn't my intent; I'm sorry. It's hard to be critical of an
organization and not the individuals, but you're right, I probably
could have done a better job.

 At any rate, while you are more qualified to speak to the history of OSM as
 a whole than I am, I do want to say a few things that will maybe help you
 get the know my personal history with OSM:

There are people on this list who were involved in OSM longer than me.
I don't believe I have special qualifications beyond being there.

 When I was new to OSM and first learned about editathons, I didn't know
 anyone involved with OSM or have any preconceived ideas about the project.
 All I knew was that editathons sounded amazing, so I made the effort to
 connect with other local mappers and start building more of a community in
 my region.  My first editathon - led by another community member - involved
 walking around outdoors on a college campus.  My second editathon - led by
 myself - involved walking around outdoors in a neighborhood commercial
 district.  In my experience, editathons have always been a way for community
 members to get together and map in whatever manner made the most sense -
 sometimes outdoors, sometimes indoors.  There can be value in both.
 I remember Paul's post, I was elected to the chapter board, and - it's true!
 - I don't have very many OSM edits compared to many members of the
 community.  That doesn't mean I don't go out and map my community - I
 described in a different email how I do so.  But I contribute in other ways
 as well.  Last month, I led a group of students in a survey of a nearby
 neighborhood.  I spent hours walking through the neighborhood with them,
 helping mark points, and then helping them enter their data when they
 returned.  I did not personally make a single edit with my OSM user name.
 However, I contributed to those edits invisibly, behind the scenes, and I
 believe several of those students will become regular contributors.

Maybe time erases this stuff, and that's a good thing.

Again, my apologies. Especially as someone who doesn't have a car, I
know the challenge that mapping can be for folks like us, and major
kudos to you for your mapping and community work.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Facts about the world

[Serge Wroclawski]

Eleanor,

I don't see a reason not to be public with my reply to you.

I organize mapping parties during the warmer months (have one next
week) and during the colder months, organize indoor mapping events.

The indoor events tend to get less participants than the outdoor ones,
which is surprising.

Why do I map outdoors? To me, the importance of OSM is in two part.
Firstly and most importantly to me, OSM is part of a larger group of
activites that I participate in regarding the Free Software and Free
Culture worlds. I see OSM as part of that larger effort that I care
about. I'm not a Geo person- rather I'm someone who has a passion for
providing universal access and personal empowerment, and I see OSM as
one means to that end.

When we think about OSM, I do think we want to consider issues of
lifespan. Will OSM be necessary if we had every town or county in the
US providing us full access to their data, and we had access to every
business data. If we had that, at least in the US, OSM would be
largely redundant. But the fact is, we don't.

In the meantime, here in the US and around the world, there is a
desperate need for access to high quality geographic data. I don't
know if you read a blog post I made about a year ago
(http://blog.emacsen.net/blog/2014/01/04/why-the-world-needs-openstreetmap/)
but we can't hand off this much power to third parties, even ones who
act benevolently for the moment.  Instead, this needs to be in the
hands of all of us- every single one of us.

Mapping can be hard work. The day after a big mapping party, I
sometimes need to just sit in my apartment alone. The whole experience
can be exhausting. But I do it because it's important. It's important
to think about these spaces as *ours*. This is why projects like the
NYC Community Garden Mapping project here in NYC are important
(http://blog.emacsen.net/blog/2014/12/01/nyc-blooms-with-openstreetmap/),
because we can't rely just on governments or companies to tell us what
our world looks like.

It's great to do humanitarian mapping, and it's awesome and amazing
that we have access to resources like governmental datasets and
imagery, but those can't substitute for going out and doing the work
of looking at our neighborhoods for ourselves.


That's why I map, and that's why I organize local mapping events.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Moving historic railroad ways from OSM to OpenHistoricalMap

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Thu, Apr 2, 2015 at 12:15 AM, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com wrote:

 But the map *already* doesn't render abandoned railways,
 much less razed railways.

C'mon, let's not conflate the renderings with OSM.

 I can understand if someone deletes a railway by hitting the wrong
 key. I can understand if someone deletes a railway that is tagged
 incorrectly as disused or abandoned when it should be tagged as
 dismantled.

 I can understand if somone goes to the location of an
 abandoned railway, and doesn't see the evidence that an expert
 sees.

You're saying that these railways could be used for farming or build
over, right? To me, having something else over where a railroad was
indicates that the railroad is gone. There might be a legal right of
way, but if someone else is using the land for some other purpose,
then that's the current usage.

This is similar to the NYC community gardens. Many community gardens
in what the NYC government calls abandoned lots. The government sees
abandoned lots, but the community sees gardens. The gardens are
visible from the ground, so I say they're gardens.

But if someone builds over the previous community garden and puts up a
building, the community garden is gone.

In another mail, someone else (or maybe you) make the point that
there's still a legal right, and therefore the railroad should stay.
But then what does one do about someoen making fake abandoned railroad
tags? How, with the only evidence being legal right, can I judge
what's a real abandoned railroad and what's not a real abandoned
railroad? It's enormously difficult to disprove the existence of
something.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] user damages administrative boundaries around Rapid City

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 4:21 AM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote:

 The last thing that I would want to do is involve the Data
 Working Group.

I'm sending this mail as a DWG member- but I'm only speaking for
myself, and not on behalf of the DWG.


I don't think most people realize that the DWG will often get
complaints, and usually don't take administrative action. It's quite
frequent that we get a complaint, and our resolution to the matter is
to mediate a disagreement, or focus on education of one or more
mappers.

Most of the time a resolution can be found without needing to take any
official DWG actions. The DWG member's role in those situations is as
a third party who can come in, hear everyone's side, and try to find a
resolution that works for all parties.

In fact, I think that one thing the DWG members would like is if more
mappers took time to try to find another solution before contacting
the DWG. Many times we'll get a complaint from one user about another
mapper's mapping practices and the person complaining hasn't used
changeset discussions to, or in some cases even having send someone an
in-system message. In other words, the person being complained about
may not even know that there's someone whose upset.

Reaching out to your fellow mapper should your first step in any
conflict resolution. If that doesn't work, the DWG is there to help,
and you should feel free to contact them.

The DWG email address is d...@osmfoundation.org

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Boundaries and verifiability (was Re: Retagging hamlets in the US)

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 2:30 AM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote:

 1. Every time this boundary debate or accuracy debate comes up, I image that
 I am supposed to have $20,000 of GPS equipment[1]; post process the data so
 that it is accurate; before I dare put the data in OSM.

I agree with you that things which you can't verfiy without thousands
of dollars of equipment doesn't belong in a generalized dataset like
OSM.

 3. It is my belief and experience that the ground observable rule is
 something that only applies to Europe or older metropolitan areas.

Then you're going to have problems with all of OSM, since we use that rule
to handle virtually any dispute.

  I am curios what river or wash I just drove
 over.  It is not posted.  I had to go to the US government sites to find the
 information because it is useful in OSM.

It's entirely possible that the names the locals use for that river
differ from the  government dataset, in which case, OSM would prefer
you use the local name as the primary name, and not the official one.
Ground observable in this case is Local knowledge. Of course that
requires consensus, but this is why we have so many tags related to
names

 6. The ground observable rule is trying to take over the more important
 rule: Mappers with local knowledge of their area add valuable data that
 commercial mapping companies cannot always afford to add to the map.

This is based on a misunderstanding of your understanding of what the
ground observable rule is. A person who lives in an area and can talk
about it will actually trump most other sources, including signage,
but that requires that we get lots of people involved and working in a
diplomatic way.

 7. The ground observable rule is a barrier to new mappers. I helped a new
 mapper at a Editathon add taco stands.  She did everything wrong. I did say
 no you cannot add that node. We have not gone and surveyed that node exists.
 I let her add the node with abbreviated street names and all.  She was so
 exited to add here research data to OSM.

Why not help her ensure that her data be in OSM by being a teaching resource?

Also, what does sign names have to do with ground surveying?

 8. The ground observable rule is a barrier to new mappers. Most of the new
 mappers I know started mapping by signing up and adding data.

Adding data they surveyed or adding data they got from another source?

 9. Taking Serge's example of neighborhood boundaries to the logical
 conclusion, nothing should be put in OSM because an edit war __could__
 ensue.

This is quite the stawman argument you've build in my name, but it's
not my argument.

OSM has a long history of encouraging surveyed data.

 11. The ground observable rule fails to acknowledge that not every feature
 is observable but still is useful to OSM.  I had to talk the rent-a-cops out
 of arresting me for taking pictures around Chase Field [8]. I could not see
 around the building or under the 7th street bridge via satellite imagery. In
 this post 911 world, the ground observable rule is an unrealistic
 requirement.

I've never encountered a problem with law enforcement officials when
mapping, so I can't speak to your experience.

 12.I am passionate about what I do with OSM and the out reach that I do.  I
 am game to survey and map my city, county, and state.  It feels like this
 growing number of people believes that every mapper has to map just like
 Steve Coast did ten years ago. Congratulations Serge!  It is my growing
 belief that your growing number of people has stymied growth in new and
 different valuable ways of mapping data.  I failed to map for months because
 it sounded like I had to have a GPS five years ago before I could map.

Last year (or was it the year before) at SOTM US, there was discussed
with Ian Dees leading the discussion about using municipal data in a
separate dataset, and yet I don't see you being as viscous against
him.

Whether it's deliberate or not, please stop misquoting me to further
your arguments.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Boundaries and verifiability (was Re: Retagging hamlets in the US)

[Serge Wroclawski]

I agree 100% with Bryce.

- Serge

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote:
 The nice thing about mapping a neighborhood name as a point feature is:

 a) It helps people locate the neighborhood
 b) it completely sidesteps the question of the exact, possibly fuzzy,
 boundaries.

 For 10% of the hassle you map 90% of the benefit.

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Re: [OSM-talk] GSoC - Moderation Queue for osm.org

[Serge Wroclawski]

Hi Vidun,

Sounds good. If there's anything I can do to help, please let me know.

- Serge

On Thu, Mar 12, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Vidhun k vidhu...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all,

 I am Vidhun doing my bachelors in computer science. I have participated in
 GSoC last year with PublicLab contributing to the Mapknitter project based
 on ROR.

 I am excited to contribute to OSM and become part of its vibrant community.

 Currently I am looking around the codebase of OSM trying to get into some of
 the issues. Otherwise I would be happy to hear out any suggestions or
 requirements I should consider before I begin my solid work.

 I will work on this the coming week and be back for review.

 Cheers,
 Vidhun Vinod.

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Re: [OSM-talk] this has to stop: iD user mistakes all over the place

[Serge Wroclawski]

Folks,

This post doesn't represent the DWG in any way, but as someone who
does DWG work, and closely monitors his local area, I think I have a
bit of expertise in this area.

In my experience, iD users do not make any more mistakes than any
other editor in relative terms. In other words- if 80% of edits are
done in iD- then we should see 80% of mistakes by iD users. In my
experience, the kinds of editor errors that are being discussed
(deletion of objects, etc.) are not happening in a greater relative
quantity by iD users than any other editor- and for the kinds of
issues that the DWG gets involved in, eg edit wars and problematic
imports, JOSM users are by far the biggest problems.

The fact is that the amount of data issues we have with OSM users is
decreasing, not increasing. iD's tagging support makes things
generally better for the beginner and intermediate user.

We do have problems the things like addresses, splitting of features
and especially relations- but I'd argue that these are not the
editor's problems.

Addresses in OSM are confusing because we have so many different ways
to represent addresses (as attributes of a node, as attributes of a
building, as a raw node inside a building, as a relation, as an
associatedStreet, etc.), and relations are very complicated.

Multipolygon could be replaced with something like area as proposed
by Jochen, but until that happens, we're stuck with a very complex
data representation that's a pain to understand and an even bigger
pain to work with.

This is fundamental to the data model itself, and not the editor.

I'm not an iD user myself, and I do think that the developer/community
communication could be improved, but it's been a large net positive
for our project.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] GNIS POI populations

[Serge Wroclawski]

Mihn,

If we do any en-mass edit, there are a few things I think we want to consider:

1. Before anything else, we need to make sure it's community approved,
source data and code examined and approved by the community.

2. I think that in principle this is a good idea, but we'll also
encounter some issues where census data shows that objects:

a. Have moved
b. Have been renamed
c. Are present in one dataset but not the other


We want to flag these for secondary processing (likely manual).

3. I think it'd be nice, if we're doing en mass mechanical edits, to
connect objects to Wikidata

While it makes sense to keep our own copy of various attributes (like
town/city classifications) in OSM, if we connect the data with
Wikidata, in the future we could pull the data out of Wikidata for
what's classified as what.

They're going to be more inclined to have this kind of data updated
regularly than we are, so this seems like a good way of moving towards
this model, even if today we don't have a way of retrieving the data
from the two datasets and reconciling them.


I'd be okay with #3 being left to a separate task, but I think it
deserves some thought.

- Serge

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Minh Nguyen
m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us wrote:
 It looks like most of the place=city/town/village/hamlet POIs from GNIS are
 tagged with 2000 Census populations in the population tag. These population
 tags allow renderers to label places with font sizes corresponding to
 population, which is a pretty common use case.

 I think we should consider a mechanical edit to update these tags to the
 2010 Census figures en masse. I've been updating individual places as I edit
 them for other reasons, but this tag is most useful when its vintage is
 consistent across the board.

 --
 m...@nguyen.cincinnati.oh.us


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Re: [Talk-us] Edits near Lexington, KY?

[Serge Wroclawski]

Shawn,

My memory is fuzzy but there was a HS class that incorporated OSM in
the curriculum in around 2009/2010.

It was discussed at the first SOTM US in Atlanta.

There were a number of issues with the instructional effort on all
sides of the equation. For the school, they felt our tagging
system/editor was offensive because it included features that
conflicted with local morals and laws (brothels, for example). For
teachers, the teaching material was thin. For the OSM community, as
you pointed out, the students engaged in what we'd consider vandalism
(tagging each others' homes as bars and brothels) and I'm guessing
that you're seeing more of that kind of vandalism.

Using OSM in an educational setting is a laudable goal. It teaches
kids not kids not just the material but lets them work on something
that really matters. It teaches them to be part of a larger
community and work within that community. It also hopefully teaches
them the value of the kind of work we're doing, our ethos of Free Data
and collaboration, etc.

At the same time, as you've seen, unless this is done carefully, it
can be a real problem. In OSM we've seen classes using OSM doing mass
imports, for example. We've seen these kind of edits that we'd
normally classify as vandalism, etc.

The Wikipedians see something similar when they work in schools, and
this issue of quality is always an issue.

As we see OSM used more in education, we have to really make the
instructors aware of the issues and make sure that monitoring the
student edits for quality is part of their workflow, both in terms of
instruction/grading but also in terms of ensuring that the OSM data
remains of high value.

- Serge


On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 7:04 AM, Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com wrote:
 Does anyone know anything about a school course (middle or high school
 most likely) incorporating OSM in or near Lexington, KY? I saw one
 changeset comment mentioning something about extra credit but not
 mentioning what the edit actually was. In addition I cleaned up plenty
 of vandalism: a road on top of another road labeled Short cut to
 school, three exclamation marks added to a street name, undeleted a
 fire hydrant (!), and a couple of other things that I'm drawing a blank
 on right now.

 While I support OSM-related lessons in the classroom on general
 principle, but I have to wonder if some of the garbage edits that come
 with it offset the good edits. And to put it bluntly, the higher the
 grade level this is coming from, the more disappointed I will be
 regarding our public education system in 2014.

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/history#map=13/38.0462/-84.4885

 --
 Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com


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Re: [OSM-talk] 176k Wikidata tags to add to OSM

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Mon, Nov 24, 2014 at 6:28 AM, Edward Betts edw...@4angle.com wrote:

 I'm going to continue to refine my results and reduce the number of false
 positives. Once I'm happy with the list I'll post it here. When we have
 reached consensus I'll add the Wikidata tags to OSM. I won't upload my results
 as a single changeset, I'll split it up by region, maybe in one degree 
 squares.

You need to follow the Mechanical Edit Policy:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edit_Policy

This might actually be an import, since there's another data source.
Either way, your proceed needs more documentation and review to be in
line with the various guidelines.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Experiences with graphical tablets and JOSM?

[Serge Wroclawski]

I used one briefly. I didn't have the kind where there's an LCD
projection- I had a cheap one.

It was okay but my experience is that I don't do much drawing in
Josm, rather I'm using tools to create objects like boxes and circles,
them modifying them- so the pen was more work than using a mouse.

It reminded me why light-pens went out of favor in comparison to mice.

I have a friend whose an artist, and uses a real pen for her work. It
just turns out that the work we do in Josm doesn't really have the
same workflow features. This may be a function of mapping, or a
function of Josm.

- Serge

On Fri, Nov 14, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Michał Brzozowski www.ha...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello there.
 So from yesterday, in Polish Biedronka shops (similar to Lidl, Aldi)
 there is a Wacom One S graphical tablet available for a really low
 price. [1]
 I'd like to ask about your experience with using graphical tablets
 with OSM editors, preferably JOSM. My area of interest is tracing
 roads, buildings (with building_tools), and finally, features like
 lakes and forests (which could be the best use, since they tend to
 have complex shapes - to be used with FastDraw plugin).
 I hope that when I get responses, there will be still one available in
 one of the many shops in my area ;-)

 [1] 
 http://www.biedronka.pl/pl/product,id,3727,name,tablet-graficzny-one-by-wacom-s

 Cheers
 Michał

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Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol

[Serge Wroclawski]

Olekisy,

I think the point about statistics is like your point about alcohol
free beer- it misses the point. The question before OSM isn't Do OSM
events model the alcoholic consumption trends of the country they're
in? nor is the question Are there beverages which taste similar to
alchol free beer?, the question from Richard Weait was Do the
alcohol events turn anyone off? and the answer for several of us is
yes.

What's a more useful question is then Why? And I can tell you that
for me, it's not the alcohol per se, but the whole bar/beer culture.
It's not that if you provide some beverages, I'm more willing to go,
it's that being in a loud, crowded place is quite literally painful,
and so while I will tolerate accepting some level of pain for some
period of time, when given the choice between doing that and not doing
it, I will generally choose not to.

As for beer and its role- I have some gastrointestinal issues which
prevent me from having beer. I'm gluten intolerant and alcohol itself
is not kind on my system. That's why I don't generally drink, because
the alcoholic drinks which don't give me trouble me are few and far
between. When I used to be able to drink beer, I think that my
tolerance for the above noise/etc was dulled by the inebriation.

But there are lots of reasons why people may not choose to go to an
event that's beer centric. Maybe they're gluten intolerant, or alcohol
intolerant, or alcoholic (and abstaining), maybe they don't drink for
religious reasons, or maybe they just make a choice not to, or they
have sensory issues,  or maybe if an event is held in a bar, it keeps
people who are under 21 away, or I know some women don't like to go to
bar/drinking events because of past bad experiences. The causes are
different but the result is the same.

I don't think Richard was asking How can I find an alcohol free
beer?, he was asking about Are there people who find themselves
unable to attend OSM events which are based around alcohol? and for
me the answer is yes, and as an example I offered, the SOTM US social
events have either taken place at a bar (starting from the very first
one in Atlanta), or were essentially just taking an office and putting
alcohol in it. The result is either I tried attesting and found myself
extremely uncomfortable and left after a very short time (10-15
minutes) or more recently, I've just stopped trying to attend these
social events and just go to the conference itself.

Contrasting this, by the way, is SOTM in Birmingham, the last day,
food was served, and alcohol was offered as well. We had tables, and
so things didn't seem quite as alcohol centric, even though Brits tend
to have more of a beer culture than even Americans.

It's never possible to make things perfect for every person, but
offering smaller rooms, or more quiet, low key places/events as part
of a larger event can make a big difference to me. I don't expect
people to accommodate, though, I just choose not to put myself in a
situation where I feel either socially or physically uncomfortable.
What event organizers choose to do with this information is entirely
up to them.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Serge Wroclawski]

Andy,

This is a good question. I'd hoped to write the blog post about the
feature before it went live, but it didn't happen. I did end up
writing it, and in my blog post, I presented several use case
scenarios for it:

https://blog.openstreetmap.org/2014/11/02/introducing-changeset-discussions/

As for utility vs PMs, I'd argue that a majority of the time when
communicating to someone about something OSM DB related, this should
be the preferred method. You can think of this as something akin to
the Discussion page on a wiki. If you compliment someone on their
work, make it public. If you have a question, make it public, etc.

I'd say the need for PMs in OSM should be greatly diminished with the
introduction of this feature.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] discussion: inclusion and alcohol

[Serge Wroclawski]

Richard,

Yes, it's quite significant.

There are many events, eg at SOTM-US where I've felt very
uncomfortable both due to alcohol and noise.

It's hard to find public places to hold social events that don't serve
alcohol, though.

While I do drink on occasion (once every 3-4 months), I often feel a
bit uncomfortable with the alcohol culture of geek events in general.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Changeset comment function

[Serge Wroclawski]

Mikel,

Short answer: Not at this time.

Longer answer:

Yes, that's a good idea for sure. It's something I didn't have on the
roadmap, but after just a day of using the feature in real life, I
already want it.

There are a bunch of other features that would be nice to implement
based changeset discussions, some of which gave been discussed on the
thread, and some of which haven't been. But after the GSoC window
ended, Tom decided that we'd push to get the main functionality in
place first, and then we could always add more. I completely agree
with him on this. If we tried to do it all at once, it would just end
up delaying things.

You've already written code for osm.org, so you might even have less
of a ramp-up time to create a patch for this than even I would (I
haven't looked at this code since the summer).

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

[Serge Wroclawski]

Hi Kate,

Replies in-line.

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

 I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I do think
 however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF membership
 isn't the best approach. Those elected from OSM contributors (I frequently
 have seen in the past people post people's OSM edits for board elections)
 are not necessarily the best to be on a board. It does not allow the
 flexibility to seek out board members with specialized skills. For example
 most of the board would not claim to be experts in finance, or legal
 matters. I certainly think election from part of the community is not a bad
 thing, but perhaps it isn't the only way.

I think you're connecting board membership with officer positions and
that doesn't need to be connected.

It's possible (and often preferable) to have a board of people who
oversee the officers but are not one of them. That also gives you
flexibility because your board can say We will nominate so-and-so to
be CEO and so-and-so to be CFO, rather than using terms like
President and Treasurer. It also means the board positions can be
equal, if the board so chooses.

I think that this argument of separation of concerns makes a lot of
sense, I think that board members should be members, but officers may
not need to be.

 Yes, I think that paid staff can certainly help with some of the tasks.
 Financing this is a different issue however. I used to work as paid staff on
 an animal shelter for abused/neglected horses that had many volunteers while
 attending uni. When there was 2 feet of snow in the middle of January it was
 the paid staff usually out feeding the animals and shoveling the manure.
 Volunteers were great for the fun tasks such as giving tours, grooming
 horses and giving pony rides at fundraisers. We need to seriously look at
 what the OSM equivalent is of shoveling manure and if it is appropriate
 hire people to do it.

Yes, and adding on, some recognition would also be nice, even for volunteers.

Last month I received an extremely nasty, rude email from someone
about actions that I took as part of my DWG duties. That email
insulted me, attacked my sexuality, was vaguely threatening to my
fiancee, etc. and the board was CCed by the original author. None of
the board members or members of management team (who was also CCed)
said a word about it.

This kind of dismissal for our feelings as individuals as we put work
into the project is really disheartening.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

[Serge Wroclawski]

I want to actually apologize for one mis-statement. Michael Collinson
from the MT actually was very good about this and one-on-one, board
members who I speak with have been kind/supportive,

I want to also point out that this is not about me getting recognition
for my work on OSM, but about the general lack of support that the
volunteers can get from the board, when just a pat on the back would
be nice.

The board is under incredible stress and strain, and they're
volunteers like the rest of us, but there's a ton of work being done
by groups like the Operations Team, the License Working Group, the
Management Team, the Communications Working Group, the Data Working
Group, etc. All of these folks deserve more support and recognition.

- Serge

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Kate,

 Replies in-line.

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

 I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I do think
 however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF membership
 isn't the best approach. Those elected from OSM contributors (I frequently
 have seen in the past people post people's OSM edits for board elections)
 are not necessarily the best to be on a board. It does not allow the
 flexibility to seek out board members with specialized skills. For example
 most of the board would not claim to be experts in finance, or legal
 matters. I certainly think election from part of the community is not a bad
 thing, but perhaps it isn't the only way.

 I think you're connecting board membership with officer positions and
 that doesn't need to be connected.

 It's possible (and often preferable) to have a board of people who
 oversee the officers but are not one of them. That also gives you
 flexibility because your board can say We will nominate so-and-so to
 be CEO and so-and-so to be CFO, rather than using terms like
 President and Treasurer. It also means the board positions can be
 equal, if the board so chooses.

 I think that this argument of separation of concerns makes a lot of
 sense, I think that board members should be members, but officers may
 not need to be.

 Yes, I think that paid staff can certainly help with some of the tasks.
 Financing this is a different issue however. I used to work as paid staff on
 an animal shelter for abused/neglected horses that had many volunteers while
 attending uni. When there was 2 feet of snow in the middle of January it was
 the paid staff usually out feeding the animals and shoveling the manure.
 Volunteers were great for the fun tasks such as giving tours, grooming
 horses and giving pony rides at fundraisers. We need to seriously look at
 what the OSM equivalent is of shoveling manure and if it is appropriate
 hire people to do it.

 Yes, and adding on, some recognition would also be nice, even for volunteers.

 Last month I received an extremely nasty, rude email from someone
 about actions that I took as part of my DWG duties. That email
 insulted me, attacked my sexuality, was vaguely threatening to my
 fiancee, etc. and the board was CCed by the original author. None of
 the board members or members of management team (who was also CCed)
 said a word about it.

 This kind of dismissal for our feelings as individuals as we put work
 into the project is really disheartening.

 - Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

[Serge Wroclawski]

Simon,

Thanks for that. I want to make it clear that my frustration is not
based on any one incident, but rather that I just wish the board did
more to recognize the hard work of the dozens of individuals who
volunteer hours of their time to this project in so many ways.

I feel that the working groups often get short shrift. The board gets
a lot of attention (positive and negative) but it's the working groups
(and a special and emphatic emphasis on the work of Operations Team)
that make OSM possible.

The DWG gets a lot of abuse thrown at us, and I think something in
Kate's email really spoke to that idea of fun. I've never considered
the work I do for the DWG to be fun. I find it stressful and
frustrating. Sometimes I find it sad, but never fun.

We may need a staff to do certain jobs, but whether we do decide to
hire a staff or not, it'd be great if the volunteers we do have now
got a bit more recognition for their hard work.

- Serge

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:

 Serge

 I want to apologize in case you missed explicit support from me (and the
 board), it was likely just a miscommunication given that the person in
 question lambasted essentially everybody that he had ever had contact
 with and you in discussion suggested that we simply ignore him.

 Simon


 Am 22.10.2014 22:54, schrieb Serge Wroclawski:
 I want to actually apologize for one mis-statement. Michael Collinson
 from the MT actually was very good about this and one-on-one, board
 members who I speak with have been kind/supportive,

 I want to also point out that this is not about me getting recognition
 for my work on OSM, but about the general lack of support that the
 volunteers can get from the board, when just a pat on the back would
 be nice.

 The board is under incredible stress and strain, and they're
 volunteers like the rest of us, but there's a ton of work being done
 by groups like the Operations Team, the License Working Group, the
 Management Team, the Communications Working Group, the Data Working
 Group, etc. All of these folks deserve more support and recognition.

 - Serge

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi Kate,

 Replies in-line.

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:

 I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I do 
 think
 however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF membership
 isn't the best approach. Those elected from OSM contributors (I frequently
 have seen in the past people post people's OSM edits for board elections)
 are not necessarily the best to be on a board. It does not allow the
 flexibility to seek out board members with specialized skills. For example
 most of the board would not claim to be experts in finance, or legal
 matters. I certainly think election from part of the community is not a bad
 thing, but perhaps it isn't the only way.
 I think you're connecting board membership with officer positions and
 that doesn't need to be connected.

 It's possible (and often preferable) to have a board of people who
 oversee the officers but are not one of them. That also gives you
 flexibility because your board can say We will nominate so-and-so to
 be CEO and so-and-so to be CFO, rather than using terms like
 President and Treasurer. It also means the board positions can be
 equal, if the board so chooses.

 I think that this argument of separation of concerns makes a lot of
 sense, I think that board members should be members, but officers may
 not need to be.

 Yes, I think that paid staff can certainly help with some of the tasks.
 Financing this is a different issue however. I used to work as paid staff 
 on
 an animal shelter for abused/neglected horses that had many volunteers 
 while
 attending uni. When there was 2 feet of snow in the middle of January it 
 was
 the paid staff usually out feeding the animals and shoveling the manure.
 Volunteers were great for the fun tasks such as giving tours, grooming
 horses and giving pony rides at fundraisers. We need to seriously look at
 what the OSM equivalent is of shoveling manure and if it is appropriate
 hire people to do it.
 Yes, and adding on, some recognition would also be nice, even for 
 volunteers.

 Last month I received an extremely nasty, rude email from someone
 about actions that I took as part of my DWG duties. That email
 insulted me, attacked my sexuality, was vaguely threatening to my
 fiancee, etc. and the board was CCed by the original author. None of
 the board members or members of management team (who was also CCed)
 said a word about it.

 This kind of dismissal for our feelings as individuals as we put work
 into the project is really disheartening.

 - Serge
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Osmf-talk] A Better Map

[Serge Wroclawski]

Kate,

That's a great question. I recently joined the CWG, so maybe its my
job now to fix this, but I feel like generally there's a deep seated
communication problem in OSM.

On one hand you have the vast majority of mappers who don't know what
the OSMF is, or if they do, probably aren't members.

Then we have the OSM community who sticks around and is participatory.
Sadly if you look at the current candidates for the board, most of
them have never even been in a working group. I think the one
exception may actually be Frederik, who is currently serving on the
board. It illustrates a series of serious problems (perhaps I should
expand on that on another thread).

As for what the OSMF can do... generally be more communicative and
supportive with the people that keep the project going. As Simon
points out, there's a budge proposal period, but I think that the OSMF
could be doing more analysis with the WG's. Sometimes it's not clear
when you're in the middle of something that it could be solved with
money (vs time/effort).

I just think that the discussion regarding the OSMF, and paid staff
especially, ignores the fact that a great deal of work is done today
by people who are happy to do it (as I am) but feel that the board
could hilight this work, get more volunteers involved, and encourage
those who want to lead to be participatory in the organization.

- Serge

On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com wrote:
 Hi Serge,

 What would you like the board to do to recognize the work of the volunteers?
 Within HOT for example we've learned culturally people don't necessarily
 even want the same type of recognition. I'm sorry I should have sent you a
 message regarding the tirade, it was not empathic of me. I honestly only
 read the first paragraph and then ignored it as I thought I was supposed to
 do. From a human perspective however I should have talked you.

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 2:12 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:

 Simon,

 The DWG gets a lot of abuse thrown at us, and I think something in
 Kate's email really spoke to that idea of fun. I've never considered
 the work I do for the DWG to be fun. I find it stressful and
 frustrating. Sometimes I find it sad, but never fun.


 I think within volunteering there are a couple different aspects that cause
 people to help. Fun is only one variable. If a job is really important for
 an organization such as the DWG for example people will do it because it is
 necessary, not because it is fun. In my example of working on a farm, there
 were volunteers who would come do very not fun jobs because they knew they
 were needed. There were also jobs that it was extremely hard to get people
 to help.



 We may need a staff to do certain jobs, but whether we do decide to
 hire a staff or not, it'd be great if the volunteers we do have now
 got a bit more recognition for their hard work.


 As I stated before I'm a bit unsure how to respond to this. I suppose one
 thing we can say now is everyone is a volunteer and not getting any
 recognition! Anyway, what I mean by that is I'm unsure exactly what people
 want. I appreciate the working groups and the jobs that people do that I
 would never have the patience to do. The fact that the servers run, we don't
 get shutdown because of data licensing and all out edit wars don't destroy
 the map is a testament to everyone that spends hours volunteering.

 -Kate


 - Serge

 On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 5:04 PM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote:
 
  Serge
 
  I want to apologize in case you missed explicit support from me (and the
  board), it was likely just a miscommunication given that the person in
  question lambasted essentially everybody that he had ever had contact
  with and you in discussion suggested that we simply ignore him.
 
  Simon
 
 
  Am 22.10.2014 22:54, schrieb Serge Wroclawski:
  I want to actually apologize for one mis-statement. Michael Collinson
  from the MT actually was very good about this and one-on-one, board
  members who I speak with have been kind/supportive,
 
  I want to also point out that this is not about me getting recognition
  for my work on OSM, but about the general lack of support that the
  volunteers can get from the board, when just a pat on the back would
  be nice.
 
  The board is under incredible stress and strain, and they're
  volunteers like the rest of us, but there's a ton of work being done
  by groups like the Operations Team, the License Working Group, the
  Management Team, the Communications Working Group, the Data Working
  Group, etc. All of these folks deserve more support and recognition.
 
  - Serge
 
  On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  Hi Kate,
 
  Replies in-line.
 
  On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Kate Chapman k...@maploser.com
  wrote:
 
  I'd say the size of the board to me is not necessarily the issue. I
  do think
  however having a board elected completely just from the OSMF

Re: [OSM-talk] Detrimental validation software

[Serge Wroclawski]

Simon,

That's a great point you make, about talking directly with your
neighbor. But speaking as someone who had some negative experiences in
a similar situation dealing with digitizers (offsite mappers) working
for a company- how does one engage a company vs an account? If you are
seeing multiple accounts making edits that are problematic, which may
or may not identify themselves as working on behalf of a single
entity- how are we to engage them?

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Detrimental validation software

[Serge Wroclawski]

Simon,

So if i understand you right, the answer for a mapper is to find a
company representative  and work with them? Do we have a list of such
representatives and their contact, along with the accounts that work
on their behalf?

- Serge

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Re: [diversity-talk] OSM code of conduct: starting points

[Serge Wroclawski]

I'm not arguing for an exception for unacceptable behavior, but I am
saying that we need to be cognizant of a few issues:

1. Whereas the Code of Conduct presumes that most behavior is done
with full knowledge and intent, we cannot really assume that. We can't
assume that if someone is behaving in a way that we dislike, that it
must be purposeful.

2. We can't assume that in all cases, someone is able to modify some
behavior just because they're aware of it.

3. If the purpose of a code of conduct is to increase diversity, then
it should focus on correction and inclusion, rather than shame and
exclusion.

The current mailing list CoC proposes public shaming and a three
strikes rule. Based on messages I'm getting off list from people who
seem afraid to speak up, this is concerning people, but they do not
want to be seen as being against the process in general. I share this
concern.

As an aside, how can those people who seem to be leading this CoC
process make those people feel safe enough to speak on their own?

4. Understanding and utilizing the communication channels involved is
really important here.

A mailing list can allow someone to be moderated, whereas you can't
moderate someone at an event.

At the same time, you can be more strict on a mailing list about being
on topic, not having a social (or sexual) component to the discussion,
etc.

5. We must also allow for cultural differences.

What is acceptable and normal in San Fransisco is going to be
different from what's normal and acceptable in Jakarta. We need to
allow for tweaks and changes to reflect local culture and mores.

- Serge

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Re: [diversity-talk] OSM code of conduct: starting points

[Serge Wroclawski]

I think the right way forward is to focus on directed efforts, rather
than try to have a single, unified code of conduct at the start.

This is for a few reasons:

1. I tried to create a CoC from the top down in 2010. It didn't work.
People don't like top down things imposed upon them.

2. There is no central OSM Community but rather several communities
and several ways of interacting and communicating, and any code of
conduct needs to respect that. If there's one central unifying
document- that won't work.

3. The mailing list code of conduct is still in an experimental phase.
It will undoubtely need additions, corrections, etc. It's better to
make something small and flexible now than try to set it up in stone
and try to fix.

- Serge


On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Dan S danstowell+...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all,

 Both Jo and Kathleen recently suggested ways forward for us, and they
 both placed code of conduct as their first suggestion. (Jo also said
 diversity statement.) So I'd like to ask if we can collectively
 decide on a good starting point for developing a code of conduct. I
 hope it's OK to start a thread specifically for this.

 Here I'll aggregate the starting points suggested from Jo and Kathleen's 
 emails:

 * Puppet community guidelines:
 https://docs.puppetlabs.com/community/community_guidelines.html

 * QGIS code of conduct plus diversity statement:
 http://www.qgis.org/en/site/getinvolved/governance/codeofconduct/codeofconduct.html
 http://www.qgis.org/en/site/getinvolved/governance/codeofconduct/diversitystatement.html

 * Draft OSM code of conduct (drafted in 2010):
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Community_Code_of_Conduct_%28Draft%29

 * HOT OSM code of conduct:
 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Lo7o9YuOCdH94XCFcK-HsH5Ja4fPnpVl7GioKg_4Ht8/edit

 * Recommendations from Geekfeminism:
 http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Code_of_conduct

 Plus I may have missed out suggestions from others!


 My immediate reactions:

 I don't think the HOT one is an appropriate starting point, because
 it's much more related to formal membership and therefore has loads of
 focus on members' and associates' relation to the HOT brand and the
 HOT executive. So if it's OK with everyone I'd like to propose we can
 save our energy by ignoring that one at least for now.

 Second, it's good that we have at least a draft osm code of conduct.
 One might want to simply pick that back up again and run with it.
 However, in the light of recent conversations it's entirely possible
 that the osm draft (since it's from 2010) doesn't address the specific
 reasons people are currently requesting a code of conduct. That would
 be a reason to start somewhere else. I simply don't know, though.

 It's very hard (IMHO) to get a clear overview, given all the recent
 conversations, plus the conversations from 2010. Hence I'd be grateful
 to hear your perspective, and I hope I haven't missed any obvious
 threads of thought!

 Best
 Dan

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Re: [Talk-us] changeset 25081346 spanning contiguous United States

[Serge Wroclawski]

Peter,

It's great you reached out to the user. The DWG is really the best
place for such complaints/concerns at this point. The email for the
DWG  is d...@osmfoundation.org

I've forwarded your email to the DWG and you should receive a reply
about it shortly from a DWG member (most likely myself).

- Serge

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 12:33 PM, Peter Dobratz pe...@dobratz.us wrote:
 Hi,

 I noticed the following changeset which touches UPS Store objects across the
 whole contiguous United States:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/25081346

 I have contacted user andrewpmk inquiring about communications prior to
 making this change and I have not received a response.

 After checking a few of the objects, it looks like this change removed
 shop=copyshop and added amenity=post_office.  I don't necessarily
 disagree with this change.  In my mind I had been reserving post_office for
 entities controlled by the government-run United States Postal Service, but
 after reading the wiki I see that private companies can be also designated
 as post_office, and the UPS Store certainly fulfills many of the same
 functions as government-run post offices.

 I don't think that sweeping changes like this across large geographic areas
 should be made without communication of some kind.  One option would be
 sending OSM Messages to all of the users whose work is being changed.
 Another option would be sending a message to this talk-us mailing list.
 Is there some other communication channel that I'm not aware of?

 Thanks,
 Peter



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Re: [Talk-us] changeset 25081346 spanning contiguous United States

[Serge Wroclawski]

There is... this is something I'd consider a contentious edit but not
*strictly* incorrect.

The author of the changeset should have consulted the US/Canadian
community before making it, and if he had done so, would have seen
that he should have added an operator= or some other tag indicating
that this is a commercial entity as per
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Post_office


Personally, I don't agree with this new nclassification, but it's not
*wrong* per se, just the way it was done is not the way we (as a
community) should be going about such things.

- Serge

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 12:43 PM, Eric H. Christensen
e...@christensenplace.us wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA512

 On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 09:33:08AM -0700, Peter Dobratz wrote:
 After checking a few of the objects, it looks like this change removed
 shop=copyshop and added amenity=post_office.  I don't necessarily
 disagree with this change.  In my mind I had been reserving post_office for
 entities controlled by the government-run United States Postal Service, but
 after reading the wiki I see that private companies can be also designated
 as post_office, and the UPS Store certainly fulfills many of the same
 functions as government-run post offices.

 Isn't there a way to specify the provider of the service (outside the name?)? 
  I've run into this while marking post_box for UPS and FedEx drop points that 
 I run across.

 - --Eric
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Re: [Talk-us] Statistics of board candidate edits

[Serge Wroclawski]

Alan,

The number of edits a user names is a data point. For some people,
it's an important data point, for others it may not be, but it's an
interesting piece of information.

By analogy, if this were a cyclist organization, I would hope that a
board member had experience as a cyclist. The number of edits a user
has made is only one factor, but it can illustrate quite a bit,
especially the type of edits a user has made, and the frequency of
their edits.

What's just as interesting, if not more interesting to me is how many
edits a person has made through on the ground surveying vs using other
datasets or imagery. That is hard to capture, but getting a user's #
of edits in the US, and their core location gives me some hints. If
I know someone lives in Orlando, FL and their edits are mainly focused
in Africa, I can make a reasonable assumption that unless they travel
to Africa frequently, that they're using imagery.

Why is that important? For me it speaks to someone's mapping modality,
and therefore their experience with the project. It speaks to their
involvement, their experience editing, etc.

What I've found really curious, and frustrating, is the amount of
negativity directed towards Paul for simply putting out data about the
candidates. To me, this is the same kind of information that we
celebrate when organizations like the Sunlight Foundation aggregate
and distribute. Others are free to disagree, certainly, but I found
the data to be helpful. It won't be my only factor in the decision
making process, but it will be a factor.

Now there are other questions for the candates I'd like to know, such
whether or not they're paid to work on OSM, and if so, by who. I'd
like to know from the incumbents what they've done in the past that's
notable or some other way by which we can judge their performance.

Maybe someone would like to ask these questions- I'm pretty turned off
my the negativity and largely disengaged from the process other than
my need to stand up when I see someone being unfairly attacked simply
for providing information.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Statistics of board candidate edits

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Fri, Oct 3, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Darrell Fuhriman darr...@garnix.org wrote:

 On Oct 3, 2014, at 08:28, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote:

  It is just one lens through which one might view the candidates.

 Sure, I get that. I’m just saying it’s at best a meaningless lens, and a 
 misleading one at worst.

I must say that I disagree strongly with your message, and that your
tone is extremely disrespectful. Paul is giving information about the
candidates, whether you choose to vote based on it or other criteria
is your choice, but I feel that your messages are downright rude to
Paul.

 I don’t see anything in that description that required editing experience. 
 (Relatedly, I’d be curious to see some of the TODO lists, but the github repo 
 seems to be private.)

If you don't feel that participating in the core activity that this
community is founded on is important- then *that is your choice*, but
calling is misleading, etc. is really beyond the pale IMHO.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] A new contributor action to be investigated

[Serge Wroclawski]

Pierre,

As the DWG person who is already working on this case, we have said
that we are investigating and will take action after our investigation
is complete.

I will not discuss that investigation on this public forum, but you
knew this and decided to send this letter to talk despite this. I am
very saddened by this.

I'm concerned that in response to your mail, there will be a lot of
people harassing this newbie (whether or not his actions in this
matter were correct).  This is not a positive response, so please,
instead, let the DWG continue its process.


- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] A new contributor action to be investigated

[Serge Wroclawski]

Rafeal,

There are circumstances which I cannot discuss at the moment.

I would just to prevent any user harassment.

- Serge
On Aug 25, 2014 10:06 AM, Rafael Avila Coya ravilac...@gmail.com wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi, Serge:

 I don't see why people can't speak out their concerns about a user
 that is doing some suspicious edits, really.

 In case you think so, I don't feel guilty to have sent a message to
 this user at the request of Pierre Béland. It's not harmful in my
 opinion, whether s/he did it on purpose or not.

 I will let you go on with the research though. Thanks for that.

 Cheers,

 Rafael.

 On 25/08/14 21:40, Serge Wroclawski wrote:
  Pierre,
 
  As the DWG person who is already working on this case, we have
  said that we are investigating and will take action after our
  investigation is complete.
 
  I will not discuss that investigation on this public forum, but
  you knew this and decided to send this letter to talk despite this.
  I am very saddened by this.
 
  I'm concerned that in response to your mail, there will be a lot
  of people harassing this newbie (whether or not his actions in
  this matter were correct).  This is not a positive response, so
  please, instead, let the DWG continue its process.
 
 
  - Serge
 
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 - --
 Twitter: http://twitter.com/ravilacoya

 - 

 Por favor, non me envíe documentos con extensións .doc, .docx, .xls,
 .xlsx, .ppt, .pptx, aínda podendoo facer,  non os abro.

 Atendendo á lexislación vixente, empregue formatos estándares e abertos.

 http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument#Tipos_de_ficheros
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: Using GnuPG with undefined - http://www.enigmail.net/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Detrimental to the OSM database

[Serge Wroclawski]

Dave,

OSM is by far the best free geographic database in the world, but we have
anomalies which need to be addressed. MapRoulette helps address these kinds
of problems and brings to light errors which might not otherwise be seen or
fixed.

Many tasks do require local knowledge, but there are also many which only
require some common sense, or ability to read a photograph. MapRoulette
taps into that community potential and has incredible results to show for
it.

MapRoulette is not  substitute for going out and mapping, but no one has
argued that it is.

I did not see much in your email that was actionable. That is, I didn't see
any practical suggestions for improving MapRoulette. Perhaps if you have
some, you can share them with us and we can integrate those ideas.

- Serge




On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 9:03 PM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote:

  Hi Martijn

 MapRoulette challenges have been designed specifically with the armchair
 mapper in mind - no local knowledge should be required to fix what
 MapRoulette asks you to fix

 There's the fundamental flaw in these types of sites. Of course you need
 local knowledge.

 Please provide factual evidence that it adds to OSM accuracy.
 Please provide factual evidence that they are actual fixes.

 MapRoulette gets help to some of the remote, forgotten places.
 If they're that remote do they need helping. Who's going to go there? 
 again prove the edits in those locations are accurate  genuine.

 OK. First random from your site:

 http://maproulette.org/#t=IT_WaterCrossings/IT_RXING_11.333811432368_43.474069354879
 How can anyone who doesn't live in area (I tried to copy/paste the
 location but the info box disappeared!) possibly know which is correct?


 http://maproulette.org/#t=osmose-8170-147-soccer/osmose-8170-147-soccer-None-d19295cc3e005283ae80b66bde86f474
 Supposed missing soccer pitch in France. I mean, really?

 I believe these sites add more inaccuracy than accuracy.

 Dave F.

 On 23/08/2014 01:30, Martijn van Exel wrote:

 Dave,

  MapRoulette challenges have been designed specifically with the armchair
 mapper in mind - no local knowledge should be required to fix what
 MapRoulette asks you to fix.

  If you can provide factual evidence that MapRoulette (or its new cousin
 MapBoxRoulette) are causing significant harm to OpenStreetMap data, please
 let me know and - at least for MapRoulette - I can see about appropriate
 measures. These could include providing better instructions, or even taking
 down a particular challenge - as I have done in the past.

  My extensive experience preparing MapRoulette challenges, listening to
 feedback from its users and looking at lots and lots of edits made by
 MapRoulette users all point to the conclusion that this is a good way to
 get a lot of eyes on particular problems, and get them fixed much, much
 faster than would otherwise have been possible.

  In a perfect world, we’d have local mappers everywhere. In the real
 world, we can use all the help we can get. MapRoulette gets help to some of
 the remote, forgotten places.
  --
 Martijn van Exel

  From: Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com dave...@madasafish.com
 Reply: Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com dave...@madasafish.com
 Date: August 22, 2014 at 6:16:33 PM
 To: Martijn van Exel m...@rtijn.org m...@rtijn.org,
 maproule...@openstreetmap.org maproule...@openstreetmap.org
 maproule...@openstreetmap.org, OSM Talk talk@openstreetmap.org
 talk@openstreetmap.org
 Subject:  Re: [OSM-talk] Detrimental to the OSM database (was: Ways
 needing smoothing back on track)

   Hello All

 Please include all replies to OM-Talk:

 I was meaning to start a separate thread on this subject, but this seems
 the appropriate time  place.

 This website, along with http://osmlab.github.io/to-fix/ (  maybe
 others) are encouraging errors to be introduced to the OSM database.

 For obvious reasons there's a discouragement of armchair mapping. These
 sites take it another step into inaccuracy by asking you to randomly
 correct a supposed error (  I /really/ want to emphasise 'supposed') that
 the user can have no factual knowledge of whether the error is true or not.

 I live in the UK. How can I possibly know if there's genuinely a sharp
 angle in Arizona or there's something less than 2 metres away from another
 object that should be connected in Cambodia?

 IMO these websites are detrimental to the OSM database  should be
 rescinded.

 Dave F.

 On 22/08/2014 22:25, Martijn van Exel wrote:

  Hi all - just wanted to let you know that the ‘Ways Needing Smoothing’
 MapRoulette challenge is finally being updated again. It used to consist of
 mostly false positives for the past week, and there still are some, but
 there should be some fun to be had there still :)

  http://maproulette.org/#t=waysneedingsmoothing/

  It’s still U.S. only :( but we’re getting closer to being able to doing
 it for other countries as well.
  --
 Martijn van Exel



 

Re: [OSM-talk] online survey about the OSM community

[Serge Wroclawski]

I have some questions about this survey.

First of all, you never explain what this survey is for. Is it
academic, is it commercial? You mention names of professors, but not
institutions. You also never explicitly state what you're studying.
Knowing these would put me at ease.

Secondly, you don't talk about the outcome of the research. Will it be
under an Open Academic License?

Thirdly, from what others are saying, there's a lot of sensitive
information here. What are you doing to secure the personal
identifiable information?

I think if you answered these questions, I and others would be more
likely to participate.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] photon

[Serge Wroclawski]

Easy setup? The previous version required nominatim. What about the current one?

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 4:55 AM, Christoph Lingg | komoot
christ...@komoot.de wrote:
 Dear all,

 we want to let you know that we have just released version 0.1 of photon. It 
 is a geocoder based upon elasticsearch, features we provide already are:

  - Typeahead suggestion
  - Fast responses
  - Scalability
  - Multilingual
  - Typo tolerance
  - Minutely up to date OSM data
  - Easy setup

 There are prepared dumps available, which makes it very simple to setup your 
 own instance. But we provide also a public API available on our product page: 
 http://photon.komoot.de . More technical information is available on our 
 github page: https://github.com/komoot/photon

 Give it a try and let us know what you think about it!

 Cheers,
 Christoph
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Re: [Talk-us] Road abbreviations

[Serge Wroclawski]

Toby,

Thanks for the pointer. I think you're right that in this case
especially, there's no reason to admonish anyone, but perhaps we can
examine the data and see if there's a safe way to expand it, like we
did the TIGER data.

That may also explain some large portion of the contractions I found.
Maybe it's worth trying to map them

I'll have to spend some time with tilemill to get a visualization.

- Serge


On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:30 PM, Toby Murray toby.mur...@gmail.com wrote:
 I believe this was an import done in 2009. Here is an example changeset that
 is obviously an address import in the area:

 http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/3407483

 The import is documented on the import catalog page[1] on the wiki and
 mentioned on the California imports page[2] as well. It isn't a recent rogue
 import so please don't send angry messages. This was done before the first
 TIGER name expansion bot was run (in 2010) so I'm not really sure if the no
 abbreviations consensus had been solidified at that point.

 But yeah, it should be fixed and it will take a bot to do so.

 Toby

 [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue
 [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/California/Import


 On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 9:32 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us
 wrote:


 On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 12:22 AM, Hans De Kryger
 hans.dekryge...@gmail.com wrote:

 I just came across a import of address data in San Diego. I checked the
 data and all of it is using road abbreviations. Is that normal?


 Not normal nor acceptable. I would suggest sending a message to the
 importer asking them to stop and fix what they imported.

 As Serge suggested, send a link an area in San Diego with the bad
 formating.

 Clifford

 --
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Re: [Talk-us] Road abbreviations

[Serge Wroclawski]

Clifford,

I think the thing right now is to really understand the problem in
depth. The issues the community gets into and complains about
regarding automated edits is when they come out wrong. For example,
the expansion that was run before that was turning all E's into East.
That's very bad and we need to make sure that doesn't happen.

We have to make some tradeoffs between what we can reasonably assume
and what we know absolutely to be true. For example, if I see Rd at
the end of a highway=residential way, I'm pretty sure that is a
contraction for Road. Of course if there's a street somewhere named
Main Saint rather than Main Street, well, it will be wrong, and that
will be bad, but hopefully this kind of problem can be minimized if
we, for example, try to match the roads up with newer TIGER data road
names and use the TIGER metadata, or any local street address data
which we can use to validate against.

This is why I want to map this problem visually, to see if there are
localized clusters of problems and to see if we can reduce the
problems by using local data sources alongside the software's
educated guesses.

And we also need to realize, as a community, that automated edits,
like manual edits, will never be 100% correct. I'd be happy with 99.5%
correct. That's better than the rate of typos and other problems we
see with our normal mappers. The remaining .5% will be something that
either local community members will fix, or some further iteration of
a tool will fix.

So if you have expertise in Tilemill, I'd love the help in setting up
some tiles that show probable abbreviations.

- Serge



On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote:

 On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 9:48 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks for the pointer. I think you're right that in this case
 especially, there's no reason to admonish anyone, but perhaps we can
 examine the data and see if there's a safe way to expand it, like we
 did the TIGER data.

 That may also explain some large portion of the contractions I found.
 Maybe it's worth trying to map them


 I agree with Serge and Toby's post - this is old data that should be fixed.

 I pulled the data from a Mapzen city extract (San Diego  Tijuana). There
 are 488,571 address points. Looking at OSMI, the whole area has addresses
 with abbreviated street names.

 Serge, anything I can do to help you with the expansion bot, just let me
 know. Knowing how to do this would help me down the road as we try to figure
 out how to update address info from my local county.

 Clifford


 --
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Re: [Talk-us] Road abbreviations

[Serge Wroclawski]

 Paul,

Yeah, I'm just trying to figure out where the problems are- not trying
to dig deeply into them yet- I'm looking for clusters of problems (ie
San Diego), or I heard about a problem in Michigan where someone
decided to revert a bunch of the bot-mode changesets because he didn't
like the way they rendered, so in this case, I'd just look for some
known contractions at the end. We may change that later, but that's
where I'd start.

- Serge

On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote:
 On 7/30/2014 1:45 PM, Serge Wroclawski wrote:

 So if you have expertise in Tilemill, I'd love the help in setting up
 some tiles that show probable abbreviations.

 I have the databases to do this, but it's not clear to me how to visualize
 this. Just color roads in that have abbreviations?

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Re: [Talk-us] More road name expansion thoughts

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Mon, Jul 21, 2014 at 9:01 AM, Mikel Maron mikel.ma...@gmail.com wrote:

 Here in Washington DC, the street names are all suffixed with the quadrant
 (NW, SE, SW, NE) the road lies in. The official names of the streets kept by
 the DC city government all use the contraction. Historically, I could find
 no maps that used the expansion.

The city maps may use the same contractions as TIGER, etc. but we know
they're contractions, which is distinct from being words, so I don't
the city maps as being a reason for changing the way the entire OSM
project handles contractions.

BTW, for anyone who isn't aware, I lived in DC from 1996-2012, which
is both a long time, and also a recent time. I consider myself
essentially a local in this matter.

 For spoken navigation systems, this is probably the easiest situation to
 identify and handle, without ambiguity.

The real issue is trying to standardize the OSM data for data
consumers, which text-to-speech systems will benefit from, but they're
not the only ones.

 OSM maps of DC now just look a bit bizarre.

The MapBox folks seemed to have figued this out US-wide and
re-contract the road names and the directional identifiers. This is a
rendering problem- one which I agree with you 100% that it should be
fixed, not just for directions but also for road identifiers, because
we in the US are used to seeing contractions.

Another proposal I've seen which seemed interesting (though not free
of problems) is the idea of a new tag that was basically the name of
the road exactly as it appears on a road sign.

I agree with you 100% that we should strive for a map that looks
American for US map users. The MapBox folks seem to have done it, so
really this is a problem with osm.org's map. Their map is really
British-Euro centric in many ways, and it would really be nice if we
had a good, solid alternative, much like osm.fr. Maybe MapBox can
share some of their style with us, or if not, we have our work cut out
for us, but I'm sure we can do it.

 So I don't recommend we apply this expansion without consideration of
 regional variation. Before any expansion scripts are run, in DC or anywhere,
 the local community needs to be consulted sufficiently.

Can you elaborate on this?

- Serge

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[Talk-us] More road name expansion thoughts

[Serge Wroclawski]

Hi all,

After reading about the issues with Scout and problems with name
expansion, I decided to do a little thinking on this issue.

The short answer is that Scout (as well as other text to speech
engines) should not need to be expanding values, ie E - East. The
reason for this is that practice is error prone. We can (and largely
have) solved this problem through expanding names in the raw values.

A couple of years ago, I ran a bot that expanded hundreds of
thousands of names in OSM. The bot was very conservative about what it
expanded, which was good, but it also meant that we had a lot of names
that were left unexpanded- and as we know, if there are enough
exceptions, we have to treat those exceptions as the norm. That leads
to exactly the kind of problem Scout is experiencing now. From their
perspective, if there's a large number of unexpanded names, then they
have to do the expansion themselves, so I decided to look at the scope
fo the problem.

I took an extract of OSM of North America and looked at the last words
in road names and looked for words that looked like contractions I
found the following words that look like abbreviations:

Dr, Rd, St, Ave, Ln, Blvd, Cir, Pl and Hwy.

The total number of instance of finding one of those at the end of a
road name was 71100.

In addition, I found a bunch of directional prefixes that are probably
directional abbreviations, NE, NE, SW and SE. There were
29,130 instances of those.

And then for N, S, E, W, there were a total of of 13,494

When you look at the total of these values, the number becomes pretty
scary- over 100,000 objects, which is just about 10% of all roads.
That means that if you're parsing OSM data, 1 in 10 roads you find
will have contractions. The numbers get worse when you realize  that
this analysis only covered the last word in a road name, not any other
word in it. I suspect the real number would be much higher.

I think we (the US OSM community) should try to make it easier for our
data consumers to work with our data by making it more consistent.

So here's what I'm thinking, and I'd really like a dialog about this:

1. I think for the first case, for Rd as the last word, we can be
reasonably sure that this is a contraction for Road and we can
expand it. This won't trigger the Saint problem because ot would
only trigger if St was the last word in the name.


2. I think we can do the same thing for NW/NE, etc. Those seem safe to me.

3. We could probably do the same type of expansion of NE, NW, SE, SW
if it's the first word in a name.

4. We work on some better ways of detecting these contractions and
decide what to do with them in the future (maybe find a way to expand
them automatically, maybe use MapRoulette, maybe use notes, etc.)

I'm not saying I'm going to do this. I'm not even officially proposing
it yet. I'm pointing out a problem and potential solution. My feeling
is that if we can drop the number of problems in our dataset by 90%
without much effort, then we should do that.

I really want to hear people's thoughts on this.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] More road name expansion thoughts

[Serge Wroclawski]

Thanks to all the folks who've commented on this thread and also to
the folks who contacted me off list about this. A majority of the
feedback I received was very positive, which I'm thankful about. I
attribute much of this to the very conservative approach that was
taken last time, because there were so few problems, people are more
open to more of the same kind of work.

I want to give a comprehensive answer to a lot of your questions.

* Problems with bad TIGER data

I heard that there were a few questions raised about the last bot
expansion. It turns out that there were problems last time related to
bad TIGER data. So for example, the TIGER data may have included
something indicating that the road had a directional suffix for East,
and the road name was Foo T E, since the road had a TIGER tag
indicating the directional suffix, the name was changed to Foo T East.

The previous bot used the TIGER data to do the name expansions. If
TIGER was wrong, so was the name expansion.

* Missed contractions in the previous name expansion

I received some feedback about lesser used contractions not getting
expanded. This should probably be addressed. I'm collecting these and
will likely propose just quickly running through them, outside of this
expansion.

* Common contractions

People seemed pretty to agree that for a majority of cases, if the
contraction is either a prefix or suffix and is relatively
unambiguous, like Rd or Blvd, we can just expand it. I think this
also extends to NW and other two letter directions.

* Concerns about ambiguous contractions and local editing

A few people brought up a concern about words which could be
contractions but aren't always, such as E or S. I agree with this
concern and I think we need to put the plain ordinals into a separate
cateogry.

I agree and I also agree with people who expressed concerns that the
only way to solve these problems is through direct survey. Maybe the
solution here is to create notes?

* Continually running bot

There was discussion about a continually running bot that would go
around and fix these, as well as other problems. This is something
that OSM has has in the past with fixbot, xybot and currently has with
WALL-E in Germany. I think it might make sense for us to have
something similar here in the US  to address common problems, like
expanding Rd to Road, or road to Road.

I'm in favor of this idea, but I'd like to hear more feedback about
this. If we did it, I'd want the process to be as transparent as
possible.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-ro] sorein

[Serge Wroclawski]

Strainu,

Thank you for your question. The answer to how we handle clones/proxy
accounts/sock puppets is quite straightforward.

Any account that Sorin creates has the same status for us as the
sorein account. How do we determine if an account is a sock puppet?
We work with the admin team to determine that. I will not say that the
process is perfect and that it's impossible that he will return, but
if he does, I think it would be quite evident in the data editing
patterns.

I also very much appreciate your question about Sorin's enemies. We
are also concerned about this issue. The DWG never took a position on
the issue of road naming- we were concerned about the edit war and the
language. We are not the etiquette police, but Sorin's language was
beyond what I think a reasonable person would find acceptable. We are
especially concerned that there may be some editing backlash, and if
people see it, they are encouraged to contact the DWG.

In general, we hope that the Romanian community focuses more on
community building- physical meetings, etc. We have found that having
such events reduces conflict in general.

- Serge

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[Talk-ro] sorein

[Serge Wroclawski]

Dragă comunitatea românească,

Eu cer scuze în avans, în cazul în care acest e-mail sună ciudat. Eu
nu vorbesc limba română și eu sunt, folosind un program de traducere
pentru a traduce acest e-mail (originalul este în partea de jos a
acestui e-mail).

După o deliberare de mult, grupul de lucru de date a decis să plaseze
un bloc nedefinită pe utilizator sorein:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/493

Explicația completă pentru această interdicție este situat pe mesajul
ban, așa că nu voi repeta ceea ce am scris acolo.

Acest lucru nu este ceva care DWG ia ușor, dar am simțit că era
necesar în acest caz. Dacă cineva are întrebări cu privire la acest
lucru, poți să mă întrebi în acest thread, sau cere
d...@osmfoundation.org

Va multumesc,

Serge
în numele DWG

Mesaj originală

Dear Romanian Community,

I appologize in advance if this mail sounds strange. I do not speak
Romanian and I am using a translation program to translate this email
(the original is at the bottom of this mail).

After a long deliberation, the Data Working Group has decided to place
an indefinite block on user sorein:

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user_blocks/493

The full explanation for this ban is located on the ban message, so I
will not repeat what we have written there.

This is not something that the DWG takes lightly, but we felt it was
necessary in this case. If anyone has any questions about this, you
can ask me in this thread, or ask  d...@osmfoundation.org

Thank you,

Serge
on behalf of the DWG

Original Message

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Re: [Talk-us] How is Scout?

[Serge Wroclawski]

Martijn,

How often would this be? If it's once every few months, that might not
be so bad, but if it's more frequently, maybe Twitter would be better.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Organizational mapping policy

[Serge Wroclawski]

To elaborate on what Frederik said a bit...

The DWG has seen some what we're calling organized mapping which we
can generally define as a set of mappers being directed or working on
behalf of an organization.

The difference between what OSM experienced and what Wikipedia
experiences regarding paid contributors is a bit different, so I'll
elaborate on this a bit.

For Wikipedia the issue is really about independence. If I work for
GloboChem and write in Wikipedia that GloboChem has a wonderful
environmental reputation, there's an issue of bias and possibly truth.

That's not the kind of thing we're seeing or thinking about. Instead,
we're seeing issues like:

1. One mapper (on behalf of an organization) mapping in a very sloppy
way. This might be something like extranious nodes, disconnected roads
or broken relations. These aren't necessarily wrong in the sense of
vandalism, but they may not be correct either.

2. If you ask the mapper about what's going on, they don't answer.

3. You might see more than one account doing the same type of mapping

4. The DWG has to find the responsible party on their own because #2
and #3. This is not always easy, and it's often time consuming.

5. If the DWG sees that there's a lot of problems being caused by #1
or perhaps something more extreme, then even if we are able to get
through to a single mapper, other accounts (that turn out to be from
the same organization, though not necessarily the same person)
continue the same
problematic mapping activity in the same style

6. Organizations differ in how they want to be communicated with. Some
want us to treat them as a single entity and use some external
communication tool (ie not OSM messaging), while others want us to
treat mappers as individuals, and sometimes they want both, depending
on the context. This complexity puts a burden on the DWG to find the
right communication channel for each mapper in each context, using up
our volunteer time and resources.

7. Once a problem has been identified, it's often difficult to get the
individual or organization to take ownership of the problem and
especially to fix previous mistakes.

8. It's not infrequent for these organizations to be using remote
mappers, so sometimes you will see things mapped how they think they
should look based on where they live/how the imagery looks rather than
the on the ground truth. This gets more complicared when conflicts
arise between these remote mappers and existing mapped data from local
contributors. It's not a matter of vandalism, because it's not
malicious, but it can be hard to figure out the right way forward in
these situations.

The proposal, which was relatively modest IMHO, mainly focued around
the issue of transparency, making it easier to identify when a mapper
is working on behalf of a larger organization, and if they are, the
best way to communicate with the organization. In my opinion this
would benefit all of OSM, especially our concerned users who come to
the DWG with these complaints. It would probably end up reducing or
eliminating the need for DWG involvement in many cases.

As Frederik implied, for some reason the discussion on this turned
quite bitter. I think it's inevitable that we'll have to address this
topic, but I get the impression that parts of our community aren't
ready to address this topic yet.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Proposed repeated mechanical edit: Empty relations

[Serge Wroclawski]

This seems reasonable to me.

With these kinds of objects, there's really no easy way to understand
the editor's intent, and figuring that out would very likely be more
work that re-doing it.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Nominatim in CDP

[Serge Wroclawski]

CDPs in OSM have been an ongoing issue of discussion for a while.

NE2 stated that he would delete them all unless someone could show him
a single example of them being useful.

I pointed out that Bethesda, MD (noted for being where the NIH and the
Naval Medical Academy, along with several other large landmarks) is a
CDP, as is Silver Spring, MD, which is the 2nd most dense place in MD
except for Baltimore.

After some discussion, he agreed not to delete the objects in the whole US.

The general feeling from many people were that the CDPs were useless
information- only interesting to the census workers and not the
regular people on the street. For them, it probably made sense to
delete the CDPs. For places where CDPs do make sense to keep in, it
would be sad if someone deleted them, but that's likely what happened.

This is (yet another) reason why I believe so strongly in Ian's effort
to move government boundary data out of OSM and into another dataset.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Nominatim in CDP

[Serge Wroclawski]

Clifford,

I do not like your statement in favor of deleting Bethesda from OSM.

- Serge
 On Jun 11, 2014 4:21 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote:


 On Wed, Jun 11, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net
 wrote:

 however folks may feel about CDPs, they aren't administrative government
 entities and the current tagging of them with an admin_level is clearly
 wrong (which Paul Norman pointed out to me a little while ago and he's
 absolutely right). if we can't get them out of the database then we should
 at least make an effort to come up with better tagging.


 After reading the message thread, I agree that CDP's do not belong in OSM.
 I do think they describe some small rural areas but they are not
 administrative boundaries in the in the state, county, city, neighborhood
 sense.

 I think that Ian is correct that Nominatim is failing to find the address
 because of the CDP boundary. But does that make Nominatim wrong or the
 admin boundary? I can fix the admin boundary for this area, but that leaves
 hundreds of others untouched. Anyone want to help me understand how to
 remove the CDP for Union Hill-Novelty Hill CDP so I can test out if this
 fixes the address search?

 Serge, I like having administrative boundaries in OSM. For one it makes
 overpass area queries slick. I would prefer that boundaries be in a
 separate layer. Just recently I've been adding park and rides in NW
 Washington State. A number of the parking lots were connected to completely
 unrelated objects. The parking lots had grown since they were originally
 mapped. It made changing them a pain. That alone doesn't justify layers,
 but instead it makes OSM somewhat easier to maintain. How layers get
 implemented might involve separate tables or even databases, just so long
 as the contributor has the sense that if the admin boundary needs fixing,
 it is done from a separate layer.

 Clifford
 --
 @osm_seattle
 osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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[Talk-us] Fwd: USBRS WikiProject seeks volunteer mappers

[Serge Wroclawski]

Russ,

My opinion is that this is a single data source issue. Unlike other
data that we collect, there is nothing in the ground indicating the
existence of this as a route. There's no sign indicating where the
route is, so there's be no way to collect this data other than by
looking at an external dataset and either importing or tracing.

I think that's an import, because it's taking external data and
applying it to OSM without even the potential for ground validation.

I did mess up in that I needed to have stated, and will state now,
that I was not talking from the position of the DWG.


We have a lot of data that we could include in OSM that would be
useful. Every so often someone wants to add property lines. I think
those would be potentially interesting, but unsurveyable. These bike
routes are similar. There's nothing on the ground that tells you that
you're on the particular bus route- which means that the only
definitive answer we could have about a bus route is some external
dataset. If two OSMers disagree, the answer will always be What does
the original data say? - rather than What does the ground look
like? - right?

I think that this kind of data doesn't belong in OSM. It's not
something that lends itself well to OSM. It think it could be mixed in
during rendering or for routing, but it doesn't belong in OSM proper.

The issue of tracing vs importing is orthogonal to this question.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] USBRS WikiProject seeks volunteer mappers

[Serge Wroclawski]

Steve,

On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 8:34 PM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:

 After my talk, Serge and Paul (Norman) had lunch with me, and while they
 said that they did not represent the DWG, in fact they actually did.  Serge
 characterized this as If a cop pulls you over and says 'I'm going to let
 you off with a warning', you don't then respond 'But I wasn't doing anything
 wrong' or more apropos, 'The law is unclear.'  He challenged my assertion
 that a USBR is a real, tangible thing that ought to be mapped in OSM when it
 doesn't have signs:

Steve, there's so much wrong with your claim that I can't begin to
take it all apart, but I will certainly defend myself against what I
have no choice but to classify as plain ol' lies.

What I said to you at that time was that I was not wearing my DWG hat
in talking with you because the DWG hadn't received a complaint about
the proposed routes, which were the issue we were discussing. These
were not official routes, these were (and now I will quote you)
[Using OSM as a] platform for discussion and debate in where the
routes should be placed. I said that OSM was not a place for things
which do not exist and are up for debate. That issue is quite clear
and we had not one or two, at least three emails about it, in addition
to the nearly hour long discussion we had at SOTM US.

You then officially went to the DWG asking about the proposed and
official routes, and the DWG position was that we were not going to
intervene unless we received a complaint from a community member, but
that if you kept pushing the issue, then the DWG would need to do an
investigation, which might result in the deletion of your data. I
didn't want to have to do that because while I think you were in the
wrong, you were generally acting on what I felt to be good faith. I
suggested to you that you drop the issue unless you wanted to make
this official DWG business. In fact, you escalated the issue several
times and I pleaded with you not to because I wanted to avoid needing
the DWG to take an official stance on this data. That is where we left
it.

Proposals/plans do not belong in OSM. That is very clear. OSM is not a
platform for debate about where things should be- it reflects ground
truth only.

USBR data is an edge case because it is not universally ground
verifiable. The DWG has not taken a position on whether or not it
belongs in OSM, but I personally believe that data which comes from a
single source and is not ground verifiable does not belong in OSM.
That view extends to government boundaries such as state and county
boundaries.

 No mention was made at
 that lunch about Import Guidelilnes or that the network's entry into OSM
 was an import.  That came later.

That's correct, because you told me the work was done. If it was done,
there was nothing left to discuss in regards to an import.

Whether or not the non-proposed route data would be classified as an
import is a matter of discussion. I personally believe that this would
be an import- but am happy to entertain the idea that it's not- or
whether or not the data belongs in OSM at all, which is still a
discussion that needs to happen.

The issue of utility, of course, is separate from the issue of Does
it belong in OSM, as we have had the question of ground verifiability
many times with data which would be useful to have, including property
lines, bird spotting data, wifi access points, etc.

Your email contains things which I believe you know to be false. That
kind of behavior certainly does not make for a condusive collaborative
environment and I believe that you owe both Paul Norman and myself a
personal appology.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] USBRS WikiProject seeks volunteer mappers

[Serge Wroclawski]

Since there is no signage for these routes, this is an import and should be
following the import guidelines.

- Serge
On May 31, 2014 3:19 PM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote:

  OSM's USBRS WikiProject seeks volunteer mappers to help map new APPROVED
 United States Bicycle Routes.  Please see
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_U.S._Bicycle_Route_System
 , a reference and status report for the project.  Effective immediately,

 USBR 1 in Massachusetts
 USBR 10 in Washington state
 USBR 36 and 37 in Illinois
 USBR 50 in the District of Columbia and
 USBR 50 in Ohio

 were declared by AASHTO as approved national routes.  These are
 essentially equivalent to freshly opened Interstate highways, except these
 are for bicycles.  Very helpful would be additional experienced OSM
 volunteers, comfortable editing OSM relations, to improve/complete USBRs 1,
 10, 37 and 50 (in Ohio) by adding additional route members to a relation
 from a soft-copy map or text description of the route.

 If you wish to help build our national bicycle network in OSM, please
 contact me to obtain route data to enter into OSM.  The wiki offers
 technical/tagging guidance, as well as acts as a progress reporting
 mechanism.

 It is important to communicate your intentions and progress via email or
 preferably wiki.  The project has established process and enjoys new growth
 by asking widely for additional volunteers, so please pay attention to the
 many moving parts by keeping communication flowing where it needs to.  (Get
 route data via email, wiki update your progress).  USBRS is ~10,000
 kilometers and has momentum to grow to 20,000 in the medium-term future.
 Help out by adopting a route near you!

 Though this work isn't difficult, each route might take a few hours of
 effort starting with an email.  After you complete a route in OSM, one
 reward is to see the red line of a new, official USBR blossom in Cycle Map
 layer.  Other rewards happen for on-the-ground participants (cities,
 counties, state DOTs, the public, stakeholders, bicycle coalition
 groups...), who see the route in our widely available map.  This encourages
 more routes to emerge in a geographically friendly way, facilitating
 harmonious progress and further growth in our national bicycle network.

 To begin your contributions to this OSM WikiProject, reply using steveaOSM
 at softworkers (dot) com.  Put USBR mapping in OSM in the Subject line
 and say where you'd like to map.  Thank you!

 SteveA
 California

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Re: [Talk-us] USBRS WikiProject seeks volunteer mappers

[Serge Wroclawski]

Ian,

OpenTripPlanner can handle routing, which is a pretty core part of
handling bus data. OpenTripPlanner can also be fed directly from the
GTFS data from the transit authority, which simplifies updates, etc.,
making a really ideal choice for applications where you want to work
with local transit data.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] [OSM-talk] Highly suspicious edit

[Serge Wroclawski]

The DWG moderators can only block accounts on a temporary basis.

DWG moderators can't make permanent blocks, or delete spam diary
entries, or spam profiles (at least not at this time).

The OSMF has only banned a single user AFAIK; Doing that requires
intervention from the OSMF board.

IME spammers and vandals go away on their own.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Organizational mapping policy

[Serge Wroclawski]

 Kate,

You bring up some really excellent questions.

Like Frederik, the key that differentiates the organizational mapping
is central planning/management.

From your email it seems that HOT is involved in various project, some
of which would qualify as this organizational mapping, while others
would not, and some of it would be meta in the sense that you are
organizing organizations.

I'd like to keep this discussion focused on how we can address the
current issues. We will surely be in a place where it will be
necessary to update and clarify the policies in the future.

Do you have suggestions that you want to share on addressing the
concerns Paul brought up, and if you have concerns about how it may
negatively impact your work, where that might be the case and how you
would suggest changing the proposal to address it?

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths

[Serge Wroclawski]

Being an American has nothing to do with a really bad data design.
I've been an American 35 years and I think this is really not a good
way to model sidewalks.

The problem (aside from the issue of data clutter) is that the
sidewalk data can't be used for pedestrian routing because the
information about the street is not captured. You can't tell someone
to follow Main Street, because the path is not labeled as such.

In my experience, people trace the sidewalk because it looks pretty in
the renderer. What we really want is better rendering of sidewalk
tags, not data which can't be used.

- Serge

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 9:36 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 As an American, I'd say tracing out the sidewalk is perfectly legitimate,
 considering jaywalking laws that typically apply in locations with
 sidewalks, the total non universal nature of sidewalks.

 On May 1, 2014 11:40 PM, Tod Fitch t...@fitchdesign.com wrote:

 It is my understanding that in the US the roadway design in a
 urban/suburban environment includes the sidewalks, possibly a
 parkway/planting strip, the curbs and the traveled way. From that point of
 view I'd only consider mapping a walkway as a separate way only if it did
 not run parallel and close to the road.

 -Tod



 On May 1, 2014, at 8:35 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

  Here in Nashville TN, sidewalks in some business districts alternate
  every few yards between having concrete extend all of the way to the curb,
  and having planted strips with grass, flowers, and small trees between the
  sidewalk and the curb. It would be rather tedious to have the tagging have
  to alternate between sidewalk and footway every few yards.
 
 
  On April 30, 2014 11:19:31 PM CDT, Russ Nelson nel...@crynwr.com
  wrote:
  Kai Krueger writes:
  But in the US (at least in suburbia), the sidewalks are often much
  more detached from the road with wide grass strips between
  them. They also sometimes aren't entirely parallel to the road.
 
  Indeed. In Potsdam, NY, we get enough snow that we need those wide
  grass strips to plow the snow onto. But they're not practical in some
  places, so the sidewalk can come close to the road in places. It's
  still a sidewalk, though, and not a way of its own.
 
  There is not a wonderful solution for how do map pedestrian routing
  when it differs from road-associated routing.
 


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Re: [Talk-us] Sidewalks as footpaths

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Mike  Dupont
jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote:

 On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 4:58 AM, Serge Wroclawski emac...@gmail.com wrote:

 I've been an American 35 years and I think this is really not a good
 way to model sidewalks.


 Ok, serge, well how do you address my issues here in Kansas. How will you
 model that you have sidewalks of different quality for each property on both
 sides.

I don't know what you mean by quality but if a sidewalk isn't usable
as a sidewalk, then don't label it as such, just as I wouldn't be
inclined to map a road that's unusable as a usable road.

 How are we going to model damaged sidewalks as I wrote? Adding in points on
 the sidewalk way?

If you insist on micromapping, then you can use complex objects like
relations, but your is a special case, most sidewalks mapped are not
micromapped in the same way.

In other words, I wouldn't bother to map sidewalks that are not usable.

- Serge

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[Talk-us] Fwd: Sidewalks as footpaths

[Serge Wroclawski]

Bill,

You're right that we should map what exists on the ground. I think we
need to really consider a few factors here:

1. Why we map sidewalks at all (in either style)
2. What benefits one mapping method has over another
3. The data as it exists now

1. Why map sidewalks

This is a judgement call. In NYC it's reasonable to assume that a road
has a sidwalk. It would be better to map roads without sidwalks than
roads with them, because a vast majority of roads have sidewalks.

In DC, where I used to live, many roads did not have sidewalks, or
only had sidewalks on one side of the street.

Maybe where you are, it's closer to DC, or possibly even less. Or
maybe you are trying to bright some light on the state of sidewalks in
your area.

2. Benefits of one mapping method over another

I think we've beaten this topic to death, not only on this thread, but
several times in the past on this and other lists. Benefits of
sidewalks as attributes: simplicity (which often wins in OSM).

Benefits of mapping them as separate ways: Potentially more data about
quality, breaks in the sidewalk, etc. Downsides: Routing engines can't
know what sidewalk is associated with what street.

Benefits of using relations is that it gets around the routing
problem, except that AFAIK no router does that.

3. Usage

The biggest issue here is usage. It's not what mappers should do,
but What mappers actually do and what mappers actually do is not to
create relations. Most sidewalks are either mapped as separate ways,
as attributes, or not at all.

That's why I'd prefer it to be made as easy as possible for them.

Ultimately this is a decision people can make for themselves. I'd
rather they map than not map, but certainly people have their own
ideas on how people should represent things.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: Sidewalks as footpaths

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote:
 I'm trying to work out how using name=* on the sidewalks isn't the easiest,
 most obvious answer.

Because there are walking paths with names, and that's not what you're
talking about.

What you want is essentially a reference to another object, which is
why relations are useful- but they're complex to work with.

Additionally, using any name reference means that you now need to keep
the two objects in sync in non-obvious ways.

Let's take an example from NYC.

If I had a sidewalk for 6th Avenue, what would the associated street
tag name need to be?

6th Avenue
Sixth Avenue
Avenue of the Americas

These tricky edge cases aren't insurmountable, but they add a great
deal of complexity to software needing to parse the data in a
meaningful way, the end result of which is that more times than not,
if the data model is too complex, the programmer simply doesn't
bother.

That's why I advocate using tags like sidwalk=yes/no/left/right/both
directly on the road object.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Menufy.com added hundrets of stores with payment:bitcoin=yes, which don't accept Bitcoin

[Serge Wroclawski]

There are two issues here.

The first is the accuracy of the data and the second is tagging.

For data, we in OSM prefer primary source data That is someone going
to a location and verifying the information. We also allow information
such as satellite imagery to be used, but again, in this case there is
a user looking at the imagery and verifying that the data is accurate
(or at least as accurate as the imagery).

In this case, the data appears to be either from another source, or
else its user generated.That would qualify as an import, which must go
through an import process and follow the import guidelines.

Discussing tagging seems secondary to me when the issue of Does this
data qualify as imported data or not still exists.

We've had a number of issues with Bitcoin mapping in OSM, including
people copying directly from Google Maps (copyright violations),
people using geocoded addresses from Google or other providers
(copyright again), people using Nominatim to determine the location in
areas where our coverage is poor (poor quality data), data not  being
validated (users not knowing for certain if bitcoin is an acceptable
option).

If you're the author of this tool, you will need to explain all this
and come to a resolution if you wish to continue to use OSM as a
repository for this data.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Menufy.com added hundrets of stores with payment:bitcoin=yes, which don't accept Bitcoin

[Serge Wroclawski]

Andreas,

It sounds to me like then it's menufly which offers bitcoin, and not
the restaurants themselves. If that's the case, we need to remove
these tags.

- Serge

On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Andreas Goss andi...@t-online.de wrote:
 Update:

 /u/dansfloyd (Reddit) who works at Menufy finally replied:

 I believe it is just random bitcoin supporters... we have had some issues
 with people not understanding that the bitcoin purchases have to be made
 online, and not in the restaurant.


 So sorry for the subject of the mail :(


 Andi
 __
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Re: [OSM-talk] Menufy.com added hundrets of stores with payment:bitcoin=yes, which don't accept Bitcoin

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Wed, Apr 30, 2014 at 3:20 PM, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote:
 Or possible tag accepts payment from menufly, (menufly=yes?)there is some
 added value in the information here.

We don't tag any other business information that way. We don't say
delivery=grubhub, for example.

If we went down that road, the amount of ever-changing information
we'd want to store would become endless...

cake_supplier=sysco. etc.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Burning Man old data, publicity opportunity

[Serge Wroclawski]

I have to say that I have very mixed feelings about Burning Man being in OSM.

While I think that it's interesting because the event is so large and
there's potential utility, there are two things that bring me a bit of
concern:

1. Based on past years, the data is added but not deleted. The event
lasts one week, so even if you were to assume that it took time to
remove the various structures, the majority of it is gone, if not
entirely removed from the landscape, then it's at least gone in
functionality by the end of the event, and thus needs to be removed
from OSM. Burning Man's website on exodus states that the event should
ideally leave no trace. The same should then be true in OSM- the data
for the event should be gone as soon as the event is over.

2. In OSM, we map things which are permenent, and Burning Man's
transient nature puts it right on the fence. If I saw a sign for a
Weeklong Sale on the street, I'd be disinclined to map that sign.
But then again, if I knew that a major road was temporarily out due to
flooding, I'd indicate it.  HOT mapping of temporary structures would
work the same way- I'd map them, despite being temporary. This issue
of permennce and prominence is somewhat of a personal call, but
because Burning Man is transient by design, it bears mentioning.

So if it's valuable to Burning Man attendees to add it to OSM, and
it's meaningful, etc. then I don't see a problem, so long as it gets
cleaned out of OSM afterwards.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Last call spring #editathon

[Serge Wroclawski]

As much as I love when people use MapRoulette, OSM NYC will be holding
a mapping party this upcoming weekend.

- Serge

On Mon, Apr 21, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Alex Barth a...@openstreetmap.us wrote:
 This weekend the annual OpenStreetMap spring #editathon takes place in the
 US.

 Are you planning to host an #editathon this upcoming weekend?

 Put your place on the list to be in the blog announcement on
 openstreetmap.us tomorrow:

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/US_Spring_Editathon_2014

 Learn all about #editathon's here:
 http://openstreetmap.us/2013/07/why-editathons/

 Alex

 --
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 Secretary
 OpenStreetMap United States Inc.

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Re: [OSM-talk] local chapter DWG

[Serge Wroclawski]

Maning,

Are you concerned about a specific issue in particular? Is there
something that you've complained about that the DWG hasn't acted upon,
because I haven't seen any mail from you to the DWG.

If there's a specific issue you're concerned about, I think the best
step would be to contact the DWG.

And if there are specific trusted members of the community there who
have this much spare time to work on DWG issues, they should volunteer
for the DWG.

AFAIK neither have you asked for anything, nor have any new volunteers
stepped forth for consideration.

- Serge


On Mon, Apr 14, 2014 at 7:57 AM, maning sambale
emmanuel.samb...@gmail.com wrote:
 Dear everyone,

 This is a thorny issue bit will ask anyway. ;)

 Not very often, but we do encounter questionable contributions.
 Normally, local mappers would contact the specific contributor  to
 explain and provide guidance.  But in some cases, these messages were
 ignored and the contributor continues to do questionable edits.

 There is a DWG [0] to resolve such issue.  We do understand that DWG
 members are volunteers like most of us and local issues might not get
 attention immediately.  I would like to discuss the possibility for
 our local chapter/community to form our own sort of DWG where we can
 address local concerns/disputes.

 We have a few active and trusted volunteers who can discuss and
 resolve such issues.  But in rare occasions we think we should have
 the rights to do temporary blocks within our local areas.

 [0] wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Data_working_group
 --
 cheers,
 maning
 --
 Freedom is still the most radical idea of all -N.Branden
 wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
 blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
 --

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Re: [OSM-talk] [HOT] Advices on OSM mobile applications for IPhone and Ipad handy for field work in humanitarian contexts

[Serge Wroclawski]

It's not an app but POIPond is a great tool for making/editing POIs
quickly and easily.

It's a mobile application that runs on pretty much any phone (Android,
IOS, Windows Mobile, etc.)

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] Vandalism in NYC - reverted

[Serge Wroclawski]

Alex (or anyone else),

If you find vandalism like this, please do not email DWG members
individually, but instead, you should:

1. Free free to revert it. You do not need permission to do so.

2. Message the user through the OSM message system

3. If you want help, please email d...@osmfoundation.org. We have
people in the DWG with geographic, cultural and linguistic diversity,
along with access to (as mentioned) put temporary blocks on users or
remove data where necessary.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] No new information on the SOTM since January 2014

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 3:57 PM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com wrote:

 Why don't we focus on the substance raised, rather than framing everything as 
 Steve sitting around sending volumes of flak your way which let's face it 
 isn't very accurate.

I find this statement a bit hard to understand. How can you say that
you're not criticizing the board when your keynote at last year's SOTM
was essentially that you did not have confidence in OSMF and wanted to
focus on a commercial that entity that you control take over those
functions?

 The board doesn't do nearly as much as it used to, some members of it are 
 disengaged to say the least, and there are a number of reflections on that, 
 some already raised. Is this a good or bad thing? What metrics are good 
 metrics to judge the board? If we look at those same metrics for OSMF US, 
 where do they sit?


Why don't you tell us, because I'm not following what you're saying.

 If the board doesn't push to run great conferences and secedes that, doesn't 
 meet face to face and has email discussions about telephony options or 
 whether meetings are even possible... what *does* it do? Why should we keep 
 it around?

So you're suggesting no Foundation whatsoever?

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] mappy hour tonight, 8:30pm eastern time

[Serge Wroclawski]

Richard asked me to start the hangout.

The URL is:

https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/7acpifm4a9c1h4a4l7ef511218?hl=en

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] Crimea/Russia/Ukraine Borders

[Serge Wroclawski]

The DWG has an OSMF approved process for handling political disputes.
There's no reason to start a flamewar about this.

- Serge

On Tue, Mar 18, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote:
 I'm curious how OSM handles this dispute. I expect Russia's parliament
 ratify the annexation and I expect that Ukraine will continue to disagree.
 Do we have a documented process in place to determine when the border is
 changed? I couldn't find anything on the wiki after a quick search. If it is
 documented, can someone please point it out to me? We have a disputes page
 which is fine for handling disputes. I'm looking for the process for
 determining when we all agree that a border should be changed.

 Please, let's not get hung up on if you agree or disagree with the
 annexation.

 Thanks,
 Clifford
 --
 @osm_seattle
 osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
 OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch

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Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Serge Wroclawski]

Alex,

Some of the points you continue to make are patently false.

 1. There is more open data coming online by the day and we are not compatible


Let's take this apart. If the data is open, by which you mean that
it would fall into something like the definition of
freedomdefined.org, then there are only a few ways in which the ODbL
would be incompatible:

1. Requirement for attribution

If this were the case, dropping Share-Alike would change nothing

2. Requirement for Share-Alike

If this were the case, dropping Share-Alike would make us less compatible

3. An addition requirement on the data

If this is the case, it's not open data and thus the statement is false

 The world is doing more stuff with raw data.

Yes, they should do more stuff with Free data, and what they can do
has virtually no limitations.

 OpenStreetMap's problem is that share-alike's diminishing effect on utility 
 is more severe for data than for software.

Hyperbole, and as shown previously, based on statements which are just not true.

There are unfortunate side effects. It would be nice if OSM were
compatible with governments, for example, but unfortunately do to so
would grant our non-Free competitors far too much advantage over us.

How do I know this to be the case? Because it's happened already. It's
already happened that companies like Google have used OSM data, and
have bad to take that data down after it was pointed out that the
license was incompatible.

The minute that OSM data were put out without Share-Alike, we would be
utterly demolished by other entities taking OSM data, adding data to
it, and then selling enhanced versions.


- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Serge Wroclawski]

Alex,

Some of the points you continue to make are patently false.

 1. There is more open data coming online by the day and we are not compatible


Let's take this apart. If the data is open, by which you mean that
it would fall into something like the definition of
freedomdefined.org, then there are only a few ways in which the ODbL
would be incompatible:

1. Requirement for attribution

If this were the case, dropping Share-Alike would change nothing

2. Requirement for Share-Alike

If this were the case, dropping Share-Alike would make us less compatible

3. An addition requirement on the data

If this is the case, it's not open data and thus the statement is false

 The world is doing more stuff with raw data.

Yes, they should do more stuff with Free data, and what they can do
has virtually no limitations.

 OpenStreetMap's problem is that share-alike's diminishing effect on utility 
 is more severe for data than for software.

Hyperbole, and as shown previously, based on statements which are just not true.

There are unfortunate side effects. It would be nice if OSM were
compatible with governments, for example, but unfortunately do to so
would grant our non-Free competitors far too much advantage over us.

How do I know this to be the case? Because it's happened already. It's
already happened that companies like Google have used OSM data, and
have bad to take that data down after it was pointed out that the
license was incompatible.

The minute that OSM data were put out without Share-Alike, we would be
utterly demolished by other entities taking OSM data, adding data to
it, and then selling enhanced versions.


- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Serge Wroclawski]

Indeed, almost no license violation cases make it to court. In the 20
years since the GPL was created, it has gone to court only a handful
of times, yet there have been hundreds (maybe thousands) of license
violations which have been settled out of court.

A court case benefits neither side. It's expensive to bring litigation
and expensive to defend against it. This is why you hear of so few
cases coming out the SFLC, because a vast majority of them are settled
out of court, often with non-disclosure as a part of the settlement.

This is by design. The goal here is no need to use the court system.
Writing a letter should be enough.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Sat, Mar 15, 2014 at 2:44 PM, moltonel 3x Combo molto...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 15/03/2014, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote:
 On 14.03.2014 23:21, moltonel 3x Combo wrote:
 There's one fairly obvious to me : the share-alike requirement is
 necessary to enforce the attribution requirement (otherwise any user
 could just change the license to one that doesn't require
 attribution).

 It would not be legal for them to get rid of the attribution like that.
 Attribution requirements can exist without share-alike, see e.g. CC-BY.

Section 4 of CC-BY.

http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/us/legalcode

Since this discussion isn't about CC-BY, there's no point in
discussing it further, though.

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Serge Wroclawski]

Norbert,

1. Yes, it would be fair to say that ODbL is much closer to LGPL than
it is to GPL. The ODbL does not require Share-Alike merely on
combining two datasets, but only if you modify the data that's in OSM
in addition to adding your own.

2. Using GPG is good. Using GPG without MIME encapsulation is pretty
bad. http://www.phildev.net/pgp/pgp_clear_vs_mime.html#pgpmime

- Serge

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap Isn't All That Open, Let's Change That and Drop Share-Alike

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 7:43 AM,  o...@k3v.eu wrote:

 On the flip side of this, if share alike is so great where are the
 examples of organisations contributing back to OSM because of it?

We see this already. I've spoken to companies and orgs who have said
specifically that they would not contribute to OSM if it was not
Share-Alike. No one wants to be competing against themselves in the
future.

You don't see it because it's already part of OSM, rather than something new.

- Serge

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Re: [Talk-us] FW: Report of Explosion, Building Collapse in Manhattan

[Serge Wroclawski]

I saw smoke from my apartment, but I was going to wait to go over there
until the smoke cleared and they'd handled any hazards.

- Serge


On Wed, Mar 12, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Russell Deffner russdeff...@gmail.comwrote:

 Anyone want to individually figure out the building and update in OSM?

 =Russ



 Russell Deffner

 russell.deff...@hotosm.org

 The Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team

 http://hot.openstreetmap.org/







 *Feed:* NBC News Top Stories
 *Posted on:* Wednesday, March 12, 2014 7:52 AM
 *Author:* NBC News Top Stories
 *Subject:* Report of Explosion, Building Collapse in Manhattan



 Authorities are responding to reports of an explosion and collapse in
 Manhattan.


 http://share.feedsportal.com/share/twitter/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fus-news%2Freport-explosion-building-collapse-manhattan-n50786t=Report+of+Explosion%2C+Building+Collapse+in+Manhattan
  
 http://share.feedsportal.com/share/facebook/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fus-news%2Freport-explosion-building-collapse-manhattan-n50786t=Report+of+Explosion%2C+Building+Collapse+in+Manhattan
  
 http://share.feedsportal.com/share/linkedin/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fus-news%2Freport-explosion-building-collapse-manhattan-n50786t=Report+of+Explosion%2C+Building+Collapse+in+Manhattan
  
 http://share.feedsportal.com/share/gplus/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fus-news%2Freport-explosion-building-collapse-manhattan-n50786t=Report+of+Explosion%2C+Building+Collapse+in+Manhattan
  
 http://share.feedsportal.com/share/email/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fnews%2Fus-news%2Freport-explosion-building-collapse-manhattan-n50786t=Report+of+Explosion%2C+Building+Collapse+in+Manhattan




 http://da.feedsportal.com/r/191801213722/u/191/f/663303/c/35002/s/38174c0c/sc/20/rc/1/rc.htm
 http://da.feedsportal.com/r/191801213722/u/191/f/663303/c/35002/s/38174c0c/sc/20/rc/2/rc.htm
 http://da.feedsportal.com/r/191801213722/u/191/f/663303/c/35002/s/38174c0c/sc/20/rc/3/rc.htm


 http://da.feedsportal.com/r/191801213722/u/191/f/663303/c/35002/s/38174c0c/a2.htm


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