Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Komяpa]

Hi,

We've updated http://disaster.ninja/live/ to use fresh 2019 release of GHSL
dataset.
Mountains in Switzerland aren't populated anymore. Chinese mountain regions
are also better detailed.

Have a good day!

Darafei
Kontur.io

On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 3:23 PM Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> On Sunday 07 July 2019, Darafei "Komяpa" Praliaskouski wrote:
> >
> > We're using GHS population grid in Switzerland.
> > https://ghsl.jrc.ec.europa.eu/data.php
> > Methodologically, they use radar data to find "houses". It means on
> > their dataset people also live along roads with asphalt, and - may
> > happen - bare rocks are also populated. You can drop them a line on
> > jrc-ghsl-d...@ec.europa.eu to say thanks.
>
> I am familiar with that data - they use census based or otherwise
> estimated population numbers per admininstrative unit and distribute
> this population among areas they identified as "built-up" using rather
> questionable processes (what we in German tend to describe
> as "Kaffeesatzleserei").  There is no identification of houses - source
> data used is way too low resolution for that.
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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Komяpa]

Thank you!
Will keep publishing :)

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 2:56 PM Sérgio V.  wrote:

> Excelent and inteligent initiative Darafei.
> Measuring "density of OSM data" per "Population density" is a powerful
> metric to analyse where is it lacking more mapping in OSM.
> It's a nice effort to minimize "inequality" in OSM map.
> (for more info, see "World Inequality Database" at https://wid.world/world
> )
>
> I've did that metric for Brazil in 2017, "Demography in Brazil to help
> mapping in OSM", at:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Demografia_do_Brasil_como_auxiliar_no_OSM
> It helped me much to find places lacking mapping.
> Everytime I just take a fast look at the highlighted places int that map,
> I've actualy found undermapped places, lacking roads mostly.
>
> These metrics lead to view two aspects:
> a) By one hand, the world is in a fast urbanizing process. People more and
> more migrate to bigger cities, looking for better jobs, services, better
> life.
> According to United Nations report, "68% (2/3) of the world population
> projected to live in urban areas by 2050" (UN 2018-05-16 -
> https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/2018-revision-of-world-urbanization-prospects.html
> ).
> So, it's generally expected to have a lot of irregular setlements to map
> in broader urban areas. Even benig irregular, millions of people live in
> such places.
> b) By the other hand, people remaining in country sides become more alone
> (many times old people), living far away from good public services and
> enough incomes, broadly unassisted. So also important to map their
> accessibility.
>
> Don't matter with objections for too much fine precision on demography.
> That metric anyway gives much more reasonable focus than usual
> over mapping done in OSM.
> Nice, keep going, publish it.
> Regards
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
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>


-- 
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Support me: http://patreon.com/komzpa
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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Sérgio V .]

Excelent and inteligent initiative Darafei.
Measuring "density of OSM data" per "Population density" is a powerful metric 
to analyse where is it lacking more mapping in OSM.
It's a nice effort to minimize "inequality" in OSM map.
(for more info, see "World Inequality Database" at https://wid.world/world)

I've did that metric for Brazil in 2017, "Demography in Brazil to help mapping 
in OSM", at:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Demografia_do_Brasil_como_auxiliar_no_OSM
It helped me much to find places lacking mapping.
Everytime I just take a fast look at the highlighted places int that map, I've 
actualy found undermapped places, lacking roads mostly.

These metrics lead to view two aspects:
a) By one hand, the world is in a fast urbanizing process. People more and more 
migrate to bigger cities, looking for better jobs, services, better life.
According to United Nations report, "68% (2/3) of the world population 
projected to live in urban areas by 2050" (UN 2018-05-16 - 
https://www.un.org/development/desa/en/news/population/2018-revision-of-world-urbanization-prospects.html).
So, it's generally expected to have a lot of irregular setlements to map in 
broader urban areas. Even benig irregular, millions of people live in such 
places.
b) By the other hand, people remaining in country sides become more alone (many 
times old people), living far away from good public services and enough 
incomes, broadly unassisted. So also important to map their accessibility.

Don't matter with objections for too much fine precision on demography.
That metric anyway gives much more reasonable focus than usual 
over mapping done in OSM.
Nice, keep going, publish it.
Regards



- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Christoph Hormann]

On Sunday 07 July 2019, Darafei "Komяpa" Praliaskouski wrote:
>
> We're using GHS population grid in Switzerland.
> https://ghsl.jrc.ec.europa.eu/data.php
> Methodologically, they use radar data to find "houses". It means on
> their dataset people also live along roads with asphalt, and - may
> happen - bare rocks are also populated. You can drop them a line on
> jrc-ghsl-d...@ec.europa.eu to say thanks.

I am familiar with that data - they use census based or otherwise 
estimated population numbers per admininstrative unit and distribute 
this population among areas they identified as "built-up" using rather 
questionable processes (what we in German tend to describe 
as "Kaffeesatzleserei").  There is no identification of houses - source 
data used is way too low resolution for that.

I am not aware of any serious overall evaluation of the quality of this 
or any other global population density data sets.  If you read 
literature on the matter the quality/validation part is usually just 
some superficial "throwing around numbers to make the results look 
good" without actually looking at how the data compares to the 
geographic reality it is meant to represent and where and how it fails 
to do so.

I am sorry for the negativity - i just know all too well how these kind 
of publicly financed research projects work in Europe and how detached 
from reality they often become.

> To fix it we can get "unpopulated areas" polygons from OSM.

Not really - you would have to reproduce the population distribution 
process described above based on corrected data of builtup areas.  If 
you just remove populations that are obviously wrong locally you'd 
underestimate the overall population.

> > And i am not a fan of deliberately pixelated visualizations where
> > the data is shown in a pixel grid at a coarser resolution than what
> > the display offers.
>
> Can you point to a better visualization which we can learn from?
> Map is supposed to be used on settlement level, where our grid is "4
> pixels per screen" - to highlight a settlement without trying to
> predict its boundaries.

You are essentially visualizing a classification map (with ten classes).  
The most common way to do this would be on a per pixel basis.  See for 
example the "NLCD Land Cover" layer on https://viewer.nationalmap.gov/. 
If this is too noisy (which is also very much influenced by the choice 
of colors) you can denoise and geometrically generalize the 
classification for the target resolution.  Just subsampling at a coarser 
grid does not really work for this - you just get coarser noise and 
less information.

> We've built such map initially, and it's not significantly different
> from this one in disaster mapping perspective. People don't map
> physical geography far from their home much in OSM [...].

The thing is that statement is correct to very different degrees in 
different parts of the world.  Looking selectively at the mapping of 
physical geography would allow evaluating those differences.

Of course you are right that just counting features would not really 
work for analyzing that.  Counting features works well for things with a 
fairly defined amount of information per feature (like buildings, 
addresses, POIs) but not for geometrically sophisticated geometries.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Komяpa]

On Sun, Jul 7, 2019 at 3:46 AM Pierre Béland  wrote:

> Speaking more generally,
> Populatation is growing fast in Africa and many african countries dont
> have the resources to organize regular census. See the UN Statistics
> Division record of last census by country
> https://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/sources/census/censusdates.htm
>
> This means that quality vary from one country to the other and that often
> we lack good info about distribution of population in the various
> countries.  The OSM building mapping projects are often used for population
> estimates.
>

This is exactly the reason we threshold the visualization into just three
population classes: population dataset behind it is using classified
satellite imagery multiplied with census counts.
We're not much interested in exact population counts for this task, rather
whether there's something on satellite that's worth inspecting and probably
mapping.

Darafei Praliaskouski
Kontur.io
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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Komяpa]

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 3:42 PM Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> On Friday 05 July 2019, Darafei "Komяpa" Praliaskouski wrote:
> >
> > http://disaster.ninja/live/
> >  >65046,bivariate_class;id=GDACS_EQ_1183112_1265046;layer=default-style;
> >position=-13.88712117940031,30.076044779387132;zoom=2.4760319802318693
> >>
> >
> > What do you think?
>
> Are your densities in people/object per ground square kilometers or per
> mercator square kilometers? (just to be sure - this is the number one
> mistake of any kind of density analysis in the OSM context)
>

These are ellipsoid based square kilometers. I also dislike when
visualizations fade out to the poles :)



> One warning:  All global population data sets that exist are rough
> estimates with usually significant systematic biases and errors.  For
> example in Switzerland the data set you used sees high population
> density in mountain areas with no basis in reality.
>

We're using GHS population grid in Switzerland.
https://ghsl.jrc.ec.europa.eu/data.php
Methodologically, they use radar data to find "houses". It means on their
dataset people also live along roads with asphalt, and - may happen - bare
rocks are also populated. You can drop them a line on
jrc-ghsl-d...@ec.europa.eu to say thanks.

Is there a better resolution population dataset for Switzerland?

To fix it we can get "unpopulated areas" polygons from OSM. I see that
forest, fields, water, quarry are likely candidates to be used to mark
population as zero, if no buildings are present in OSM. What tagging would
be used for unpopulated mountain?



> And i am not a fan of deliberately pixelated visualizations where the
> data is shown in a pixel grid at a coarser resolution than what the
> display offers.
>

Can you point to a better visualization which we can learn from?
Map is supposed to be used on settlement level, where our grid is "4 pixels
per screen" - to highlight a settlement without trying to predict its
boundaries.


> Apart from that this is an interesting analysis.  It would be kind of
> nice to also do it separately for density of features that actually
> correlate with population density in reality (buildings, roads,
> addresses, shops etc.) and physical geography, which can be mapped just
> as densely in areas with no population as in densely populated areas.


We've built such map initially, and it's not significantly different from
this one in disaster mapping perspective. People don't map physical
geography far from their home much in OSM, and large unmapped regions don't
become more mapped if we lower feature counts in more mapped regions.
Note that any large multipolygon is counted as just 1 feature here.


Darafei Praliaskouski
Kontur.io
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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Oleksiy Muzalyev]

Good morning,

As an aside, I've heard at a conference that the amount of data in the 
OpenStreetMap database per capita in a country is proportional to the 
per capita income [1] of the country.


I wonder if there is an inverse relationship. For example, if we take a 
country and map it exhaustively and extremely well, increasing by this 
the amount of the OSM data for it. Will it increase the per capita income?


I cannot be sure, but in principle in could, as a good readily available 
map favors economic activity. And if it were the case, the OSM mapping 
could be taught to millions of pupils and students as part of curriculum.


Best regards,
Oleksiy (Alex-7 @ OSM)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per_capita_income

On 7/5/19 13:46, Darafei "Komяpa" Praliaskouski wrote:

Hi,

In HOT mailing list I was advised to bring a part of a thing we did to 
wider audience :)


We've correlated global population datasets with plain OpenStreetMap 
objects count. The main use case is to quickly determine how much is 
there to map in case of natural disaster in a smaller region, but the 
map itself is global - it's interesting to see what's around you and 
find the spots to map next, even outside of the disaster.


http://disaster.ninja/live/ 



What do you think?

(The HOT list thread if you are interested in disaster.ninja tool 
itself: 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2019-June/014908.html)


Darafei Praliaskouski
kontur.io 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[John Whelan]

There is another side to this the population counts often depend on 
building counts but some towns and villages are growing rapidly.  You 
can see the difference sometimes going from one zoom level tile to the 
next so the ones with buildings in often haven't the newer buildings 
mapped but just the old ones are so the population estimates are based 
on the old images not the later ones.


Cheerio John

Pierre Béland via talk wrote on 2019-07-06 8:45 PM:

Speaking more generally,
Populatation is growing fast in Africa and many african countries dont 
have the resources to organize regular census. See the UN Statistics 
Division record of last census by country 
https://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/sources/census/censusdates.htm


This means that quality vary from one country to the other and that 
often we lack good info about distribution of population in the 
various countries.  The OSM building mapping projects are often used 
for population estimates.


Pierre


Le samedi 6 juillet 2019 20 h 08 min 09 s UTC−4, Darafei "Komяpa" 
Praliaskouski  a écrit :



Hi,

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 4:09 PM Jean-Marc Liotier > wrote:


On Fri, July 5, 2019 2:40 pm, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>
> One warning:  All global population data sets that exist are rough
> estimates with usually significant systematic biases and errors. For
> example in Switzerland the data set you used sees high population
> density in mountain areas with no basis in reality.

Same in rural Senegal. Low-resolution population data I guess.


Can you point to a specific place please?

What would be the population dataset that you would recommend for Senegal?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Pierre Béland via talk]

Speaking more generally, 
Populatation is growing fast in Africa and many african countries dont have the 
resources to organize regular census. See the UN Statistics Division record of 
last census by country 
https://unstats.un.org/unsd/demographic/sources/census/censusdates.htm
This means that quality vary from one country to the other and that often we 
lack good info about distribution of population in the various countries.  The 
OSM building mapping projects are often used for population estimates.
 
Pierre 
 

Le samedi 6 juillet 2019 20 h 08 min 09 s UTC−4, Darafei "Komяpa" 
Praliaskouski  a écrit :  
 
 Hi,
On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 4:09 PM Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

On Fri, July 5, 2019 2:40 pm, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>
> One warning:  All global population data sets that exist are rough
> estimates with usually significant systematic biases and errors.  For
> example in Switzerland the data set you used sees high population
> density in mountain areas with no basis in reality.

Same in rural Senegal. Low-resolution population data I guess.


Can you point to a specific place please?

What would be the population dataset that you would recommend for 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Komяpa]

Hi,

On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 4:09 PM Jean-Marc Liotier  wrote:

> On Fri, July 5, 2019 2:40 pm, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> >
> > One warning:  All global population data sets that exist are rough
> > estimates with usually significant systematic biases and errors.  For
> > example in Switzerland the data set you used sees high population
> > density in mountain areas with no basis in reality.
>
> Same in rural Senegal. Low-resolution population data I guess.
>

Can you point to a specific place please?

What would be the population dataset that you would recommend for Senegal?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Fri, July 5, 2019 2:40 pm, Christoph Hormann wrote:
>
> One warning:  All global population data sets that exist are rough
> estimates with usually significant systematic biases and errors.  For
> example in Switzerland the data set you used sees high population
> density in mountain areas with no basis in reality.

Same in rural Senegal. Low-resolution population data I guess.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Christoph Hormann]

On Friday 05 July 2019, Darafei "Komяpa" Praliaskouski wrote:
>
> http://disaster.ninja/live/
> 65046,bivariate_class;id=GDACS_EQ_1183112_1265046;layer=default-style;
>position=-13.88712117940031,30.076044779387132;zoom=2.4760319802318693
>>
>
> What do you think?

Are your densities in people/object per ground square kilometers or per 
mercator square kilometers? (just to be sure - this is the number one 
mistake of any kind of density analysis in the OSM context)

One warning:  All global population data sets that exist are rough 
estimates with usually significant systematic biases and errors.  For 
example in Switzerland the data set you used sees high population 
density in mountain areas with no basis in reality.

And i am not a fan of deliberately pixelated visualizations where the 
data is shown in a pixel grid at a coarser resolution than what the 
display offers.

Apart from that this is an interesting analysis.  It would be kind of 
nice to also do it separately for density of features that actually 
correlate with population density in reality (buildings, roads, 
addresses, shops etc.) and physical geography, which can be mapped just 
as densely in areas with no population as in densely populated areas.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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[OSM-talk] Map of Population Density vs. OpenStreetMap density

[Komяpa]

Hi,

In HOT mailing list I was advised to bring a part of a thing we did to
wider audience :)

We've correlated global population datasets with plain OpenStreetMap
objects count. The main use case is to quickly determine how much is there
to map in case of natural disaster in a smaller region, but the map itself
is global - it's interesting to see what's around you and find the spots to
map next, even outside of the disaster.

http://disaster.ninja/live/


What do you think?

(The HOT list thread if you are interested in disaster.ninja tool itself:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/hot/2019-June/014908.html)

Darafei Praliaskouski
kontur.io
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