Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[stevea]

On Aug 20, 2020, at 11:58 AM, pangoSE  wrote:
> ...I would go so far as to say that
>> ignoring this problem with missing references makes the names in the
>> whole database worthless to use and contribute to because it could just
>> be random joe next door sitting on a late night and adding/changing a
>> lot of crap names wi h a handful of new accounts to the database
>> objects and no-one regularly does QA-checks to see if it has any link
>> to reality.

I don't like it when people say to me about (my country, for example) "love it 
or leave it" because that precludes being a good citizen and suggesting or 
making IMPROVEMENTS to whatever it is that offends.  However, because of the 
pure falsity of the first part of the above statement ("names in the whole 
database (are) worthless"), I am tempted to say exactly this to pangoSE:  
simply don't use OSM if you find our data so worthless.  Your problem is thusly 
solved.

Or, (much better) if you are going to use them and complain (as you are and 
do), propose a way to fix them.  You have done so, but your proposal has 
elements that are so very over-engineered and reliant upon principles of 
semantic binding and tuple-/triple-stores (as I mentioned before) that are new, 
untried/untested, are in the earlier stages of their development and are 
largely unfamiliar to most (besides academics and first-/early-adopters) that 
they need several additional "heavy lifts" associated with them to even be 
considered at a beginning phase by this community.  I listed some of the more 
important ones in my earlier post and I could list more, but I'll refrain for 
now.

What pangoSE did was not address my (I believe thoughtful and considered) post, 
which looks to accommodate pangoSE's proposal over a much-more reasonable 
longer-term, absolutely required given the complexity and massive kind of 
changes such a proposal would entail.  Rather, pangoSE "piled on" and "dug in," 
now hurling insults at the data in OSM which already exist.  This behavior 
(both kinds I just outlined) does not endear such proposals to the OSM 
community and dulls pangoSE's effectiveness in presenting them (again, while 
ignoring constructive reply).

As such, I find his proposal (and concomitant seeming lack of willingness to 
listen to the feedback he solicited) to be disingenuous, especially as a result 
of his petulant "sour grapes" attitude towards our data (and project, really).

>> Additionally the tags and their changes over time is really hard to
>> follow on openstreetmap.org (it is much better in JOSM though). Thats
>> bad because it means less eyeballs to make sure we have correct
>> information. A wiki-like interface for all our metadata would solve
>> both these examples and for good reasons wikidata is not the right
>> place for this data, but a community run wikibase could probably work
>> just fine.

In a community (USA-based) "Mappy Hour" I participated in last night about 
doing imports well, one important question asked about imports which either are 
or tend towards actual vandalism.  The (correctly offered) answers are (at 
least) two-fold:  secondarily, there is complexity to doing imports 
(especially) well that makes for a "high bar" to diminish "script kiddies" and 
the unsophisticated from largely ruining our map data (though this can and does 
happen) and primarily and much more importantly, there are quite a fair number 
of both human eyeballs and 'bot-watching data sentinels which pay attention to 
bad data entering the map.  Sufficient (at least for now) enough that this 
project has a handle on it.  Not without somewhat pricey vigilance and 
sometimes friction, but certainly much more good data enters than bad, so OSM 
is "winning that race."

>> WDYT?

I told Original Poster pangoSE what I think in terms of a medium- to 
longer-term approach to these sort of "Web 3.0-style" introductions to OSM in a 
four-point outline in my last post to this (or a related?) thread.  It is (and 
remains MY turn to ask YOU, pangoSE):  What do YOU think?" (about my 
longer-term approach and four-point post).  Can we get YOUR feedback to THAT 
reply?

Let's not talk "past" each other, let's talk "to" each other.

SteveA
California
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

See below

PangoSE skrev: (20 augusti 2020 15:55:11 CEST)
>It was certainly not a joke. The tags in OSM are IMO broken and cannot
>handle the social complexity it tries to model.
>
>One of the biggest problems is missing references to on the ground
>truth like e.g. images. 
>How would you e.g. state when you recorded a name from a sign and link
>to the image? You could do it in the changeset information but that
>means that anyone looking for the reference has to download/traverse
>the whole history of the object and find the changeset that changed the
>name.
>
>The problem with that is that it is nearly impossible to e.g. create a
>script that e.g. check how many of our millions of names we have are
>properly referenced with either an URL or a link to an image or a good
>source like say the Swedish Geographical Survey Organizaion
>(Lantmäteriet).
>This means that the community is not able to easily judge whether the
>names we have on objects today are actually real or on the ground truth
>and it is also impossible to e.g. create a list of those that are not
>referenced at all in your local area and look up references and add
>them to the database. 
>
>This is really bad IMO and a suboptimal way of designing a world wide
>database handling cultural references and data about human objects
>sourced from millions of individuals. I would go so far as to say that
>ignoring this problem with missing references makes the names in the
>whole database worthless to use and contribute to because it could just
>be random joe next door sitting on a late night and adding/changing a
>lot of crap names wi h a handful of new accounts to the database
>objects and no-one regularly does QA-checks to see if it has any link
>to reality. 
>
>Additionally the tags and their changes over time is really hard to
>follow on openstreetmap.org (it is much better in JOSM though). Thats
>bad because it means less eyeballs to make sure we have correct
>information. A wiki-like interface for all our metadata would solve
>both these examples and for good reasons wikidata is not the right
>place for this data, but a community run wikibase could probably work
>just fine.
>
>WDYT?
>
>Dave F via talk  skrev: (20 augusti 2020
>14:35:21 CEST)
>>Just caught up with this thread, & I'm unsure if it's a joke.
>>
>>If there are any problems/disagreements with names in OSM then surely 
>>the same problem occurs in Wikiland?
>>
>>DaveF.
>>
>>
>>On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote:
>>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and
>updating
>>
>>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>>
>>> The rationale is explained here:
>>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>>
>>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well.
>
>>> Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit
>>the 
>>> names or add name references (through the editors)
>>>
>>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata
>>somehow. 
>>> It could probably be done on the fly.
>>> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying
>
>>> any object.
>>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>>wikidata.
>>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata
>>objects.
>>> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We
>should
>>
>>> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how
>to
>>
>>> do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask 
>>> users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>>>
>>> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM 
>>> closer than the islands they are today.
>>>
>>> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already 
>>> prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply 
>>> better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better
>>protected 
>>> against vandalism.
>>>
>>> WDYT?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> pangoSE
>>> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but
>>to 
>>> the wider ecosystem.
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Dave F via talk]

Just caught up with this thread, & I'm unsure if it's a joke.

If there are any problems/disagreements with names in OSM then surely 
the same problem occurs in Wikiland?


DaveF.


On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote:
I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating 
names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.


The rationale is explained here:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. 
Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the 
names or add name references (through the editors)


Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. 
It could probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying 
any object.

* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should 
unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to 
do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask 
users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?


I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM 
closer than the islands they are today.


As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already 
prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply 
better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected 
against vandalism.


WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to 
the wider ecosystem.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Andy Mabbett]

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 19:05, Imre Samu  wrote:

> Wikidata is a graph database .. and there is a "known" scalability problem
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikidata/2019-June/013124.html

That post discusses the SPARQL front end (the "Wikidata Query
Service") specifically, and not Wikidata (a Wikibase instance)
itself.

--
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Imre Samu]

some info for the planning :

>  Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better
quality,

most of  the labels /names generated/transliterated  by bots ..
or imported from other databases ( GeoNames !! )

> better modeled, better referenced

Wikidata:  The Cathedral style ... top-bottom
OpenStreetMap:  Bazaar style data model:  ... bottom-up

in the OSM .. There are a lot of name tags :
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=name
and it is not easy  to map everything to the wikidata model.

Wikidata is a graph database .. and there is a "known" scalability problem
https://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikidata/2019-June/013124.html

*"Scaling graph databases is a "known hard problem", and we are reaching*
*a scale where there are no obvious easy solutions to address all the*
*above constraints. At this point, just "throwing hardware at the*
*problem" is not an option anymore."*



can't protect against bad import ..  no strict  community rules ...
for example -  the cebwiki  re-imported the full GeoNames database ...
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2018/06#A_proposed_course_of_action_for_dealing_with_cebwiki/svwiki_geographic_duplicates
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2018/07#Another_cebwiki_flood%3F
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Project_chat/Archive/2017/10#Cebuano

> and better protected against vandalism.

anyone can modify the wikidata - without registration.
in the wikidata JSON dump - no user info .. so it is hard to detect the
modifications type ( from logged or unlogged users )


Best,
 Imre

pangoSE  ezt írta (időpont: 2020. aug. 9., V, 10:29):

> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>
> The rationale is explained here:
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>
> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every
> OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or
> add name references (through the editors)
>
> Substantial changes will have to be made:
> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It
> could probably be done on the fly.
> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any
> object.
> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should
> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do
> that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to
> create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>
> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer
> than the islands they are today.
>
> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer
> Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality,
> better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.
>
> WDYT?
>
> Cheers
> pangoSE
> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the
> wider ecosystem.___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Aug 2020, at 15:08, pangoSE  wrote:
> 
> To support and emphasize ground truth I think we should setup a service like 
> Wikimedia commons also to host verification images that proves how it looks 
> on the ground.


I agree photos from the current on the ground situation are a very useful 
addition. I only recently started to add image tags in a systematic way, and am 
quite satisfied with these first steps. I’m currently using wikimedia commons, 
which after a few experiments now works sufficiently well for me, and while I 
also agree that a tighter integration of an image store into the system (avoids 
having to copy the names, might avoid having to type descriptions and adding 
categories) would make my life easier, I also acknowledge that the resources 
needed to make such a system working and keeping it online are significant 
(think data storage, network traffic and computing power for image scaling), so 
I’m not holding my breath for this to come any soon.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2020-08-09 at 09:04 -0400, James wrote:
> Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object,
> does the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the
> editor do it automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it
> offer a list to the user? This is going to make osm a massive turn
> off to new contributors on the steep learning curve(which is already
> pretty high) to contributing to osm.
> This whole idea is really terrible and could just be offered as a
> post-processed data set: wikidata? use that instead of name tag.
> 

This leads me to a fairly fundamental question, what if a mapper does
not want to be associated with wikidata and refuses to sign up?
Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

Hi

Martin Koppenhoefer  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 15:00:21 
CEST)
>
>
>sent from a phone
>
>> On 9. Aug 2020, at 10:44, Mateusz Konieczny via talk
> wrote:
>> 
>> tagging name tag is a fundamental  part of OSM tag,
>> offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not
>happen
>
>
>+1, names are a fundamental part of OpenStreetMap, we must keep the
>decision and authority in the project, decide on edge cases and
>contested values according to our rules and not based on someone else’s
>rules.

I wholeheartedly agree, integrating into wikidata is I not the best route 
forward, see the other thread about OSMData.

To support and emphasize ground truth I think we should setup a service like 
Wikimedia commons also to host verification images that proves how it looks on 
the ground.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

Yes. The data could be downloaded in bulk like osmand does today and can be 
easily parsed. 
We would of course have to split it into region or country sized files just 
like the planet files are today but thats trivial compared to integrating 
seamless support in the editors.

Wikidata dumps to json see 
https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Database_download

Jeremy Harris  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:25:02 CEST)
>On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote:
>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
>names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>
>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata
>somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
>> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying
>any object. 
>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>wikidata.
>
>How would that work for an offline renderer?
>Not everyone has, or wants to have, their phone connected 24/7.
>-- 
>Cheers,
>  Jeremy
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[James]

Not to mention if someone wants to add a name for a new item/object, does
the user need to create a wikidata item on top of it? Will the editor do it
automatically? How does it pick the right one? Does it offer a list to the
user? This is going to make osm a massive turn off to new contributors on
the steep learning curve(which is already pretty high) to contributing to
osm.

This whole idea is really terrible and could just be offered as a
post-processed data set: wikidata? use that instead of name tag.

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:58 a.m. pangoSE,  wrote:

> Yeah this is probably not the best route forward, given that wikidata is
> so big and contains a lot of osm unrelated data.
>
> James  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:31:57 CEST)
>>
>> and if the solution is to download the data then download wikidata, it's
>> even more clunky than the name tag itself
>>
>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:29 a.m. Jeremy Harris,  wrote:
>>
>>> On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote:
>>> > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
>>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>>
>>> > Substantial changes will have to be made:
>>> > * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow.
>>> It could probably be done on the fly.
>>> > * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying
>>> any object.
>>> > * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>>> wikidata.
>>>
>>> How would that work for an offline renderer?
>>> Not everyone has, or wants to have, their phone connected 24/7.
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>>   Jeremy
>>>
>>> ___
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>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 9. Aug 2020, at 10:44, Mateusz Konieczny via talk  
> wrote:
> 
> tagging name tag is a fundamental  part of OSM tag,
> offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not happen


+1, names are a fundamental part of OpenStreetMap, we must keep the decision 
and authority in the project, decide on edge cases and contested values 
according to our rules and not based on someone else’s rules.

In particular, regarding wikidata, we are focusing on ground truth, while 
wikidata is mostly a mixture of different sources, often imported without even 
having a human looking at it. I also agree with Simon that this would be an 
enormous drop in quality.


Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

Yeah this is probably not the best route forward, given that wikidata is so big 
and contains a lot of osm unrelated data.

James  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:31:57 CEST)
>and if the solution is to download the data then download wikidata,
>it's
>even more clunky than the name tag itself
>
>On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:29 a.m. Jeremy Harris, 
>wrote:
>
>> On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote:
>> > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and
>updating
>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>
>> > Substantial changes will have to be made:
>> > * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata
>somehow.
>> It could probably be done on the fly.
>> > * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when
>displaying
>> any object.
>> > * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>wikidata.
>>
>> How would that work for an offline renderer?
>> Not everyone has, or wants to have, their phone connected 24/7.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>   Jeremy
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
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>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

Ok. I agree with that, there is nothing hindering OSM from hosting the wikibase 
instance on the same machine/cluster/whatever as the main osm database which 
btw. seems to lack a name.

James  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:49:36 CEST)
>Network calls incur a performance hit. I didn't say it was complicated.
>
>On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:46 a.m. pangoSE,  wrote:
>
>>
>> I disagree. With (permanent) unique ids is trivial and the overhead
>is IMO
>> neglible.
>>
>> Its not rocket science to query an API endpoint from any programming
>> language. All our data consumers are already doing this.
>>
>> I made a simple map in a few hours that query both overpass and
>wikidata
>> based on the osmid to find links to images of shelters. See
>> https://github.com/pangoSE/sheltermap
>>
>> James  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:59:40 CEST)
>>>
>>> Not to mention the additional overhead of conflating two databases
>to get
>>> something essential like a name
>>>
>>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 7:57 a.m. Alan Mackie, 
>wrote:
>>>
 This seems like a bad idea.

 Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is
>not
 always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a
>specific
 wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious
>when it
 comes to trademarks.

 We also should not be doing bulk name changes until we have
>verified
 that the signage on the individual locations has actually changed.
 Depending on the brand these could take years to ripple through to
>the
 individual stores, and particularly 'historic' stores may retain
>old
 branding as part of a conscious effort not to irk locals. Branding
>changes
 in the Wikidata would likely be over-applied.

 Abandoning the name tags for chains would essentially be
>carte-blanche
 permission for automated edits. As it stands now, a disagreement
>between
 OSM name and Wikidata name may be a useful indicator that resurvey
>is
 needed. If we abandon name tags we open the door to the
>introduction of
 dodgy data that isn't caught by any of our QA tools because it
>doesn't even
 have a changeset.

 If "duplication"  is really an issue, I would prefer to remove all
 Wikidata tags than to depreciate names where they exist. Forcing
 contributors to check an independant database before uploading
>survey
 results seems like a lot of extra effort for a volunteer driven
>project.

 On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 12:11, pangoSE  wrote:

> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up
>our own
> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/
>
> It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.
>
> It would also be a new and currently unnecessary drain on OSMF's
 resources.

 In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into
>wikidata
> which is very tied to education and does not accept all our
>objects that
> have names currently.
>
> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix
>than
> Q for our unique ids.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mateusz Konieczny via talk  skrev: (9
>augusti
> 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
>>
>> or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM
>> mappers?
>> or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them
>quickly?
>>
>> Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com:
>>
>> is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to
>exist?
>>
>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, 
>wrote:
>>
>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and
>updating
>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>
>> The rationale is explained here:
>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>
>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as
>well.
>> Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to
>edit the
>> names or add name references (through the editors)
>>
>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata
>somehow.
>> It could probably be done on the fly.
>> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when
>displaying
>> any object.
>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>> wikidata.
>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata
>> objects.
>>
>> These seems like large burdens to dump on open source developers.

> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We
>should
>> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on
>how to do
>> that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask
>users
>> to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>>
>> I'm not sure if I 

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

Thanks 
I actually tried searching for it before posting but did not find it. 
I accept the statement from Lydia closing it:
"I've been thinking a lot about this. The prefixes Q, P, L, F, S, E and M are 
there to represent the concepts of Items, Properties, Lexemes, Forms, Senses, 
Entity Schemas and MediaInfo respectively. They are not intended as an 
indication of a specific Wikibase instance. Each entity type should be 
addressed with the same letter on every Wikibase instance. Distinction between 
individual Wikibase instances needs to happen with prefixes for example."

Our prefix could be "od:" for OSMData.

mmd  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 14:42:42 CEST)
>On 2020-08-09 14:33, pangoSE wrote:
>
>
>>> IIRC, Yuri already tried that when implementing Wikibase on our own
>>> wiki, and it turned out to be massively complicated, not to say not
>>> feasible at all. Didn't you follow that discussion back then?
>> 
>> I was not aware. Link? 
>> Its not a dealbreaker for me but it would be nice to avoid confusion
>for non SPARQL aware users.
>> 
>
>Here we go: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T202676
>
>
>-- 
>
>
>
>
>___
>talk mailing list
>talk@openstreetmap.org
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[James]

Network calls incur a performance hit. I didn't say it was complicated.

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:46 a.m. pangoSE,  wrote:

>
> I disagree. With (permanent) unique ids is trivial and the overhead is IMO
> neglible.
>
> Its not rocket science to query an API endpoint from any programming
> language. All our data consumers are already doing this.
>
> I made a simple map in a few hours that query both overpass and wikidata
> based on the osmid to find links to images of shelters. See
> https://github.com/pangoSE/sheltermap
>
> James  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:59:40 CEST)
>>
>> Not to mention the additional overhead of conflating two databases to get
>> something essential like a name
>>
>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 7:57 a.m. Alan Mackie,  wrote:
>>
>>> This seems like a bad idea.
>>>
>>> Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not
>>> always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a specific
>>> wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious when it
>>> comes to trademarks.
>>>
>>> We also should not be doing bulk name changes until we have verified
>>> that the signage on the individual locations has actually changed.
>>> Depending on the brand these could take years to ripple through to the
>>> individual stores, and particularly 'historic' stores may retain old
>>> branding as part of a conscious effort not to irk locals. Branding changes
>>> in the Wikidata would likely be over-applied.
>>>
>>> Abandoning the name tags for chains would essentially be carte-blanche
>>> permission for automated edits. As it stands now, a disagreement between
>>> OSM name and Wikidata name may be a useful indicator that resurvey is
>>> needed. If we abandon name tags we open the door to the introduction of
>>> dodgy data that isn't caught by any of our QA tools because it doesn't even
>>> have a changeset.
>>>
>>> If "duplication"  is really an issue, I would prefer to remove all
>>> Wikidata tags than to depreciate names where they exist. Forcing
>>> contributors to check an independant database before uploading survey
>>> results seems like a lot of extra effort for a volunteer driven project.
>>>
>>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 12:11, pangoSE  wrote:
>>>
 These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
 If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own
 wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

 It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.

 It would also be a new and currently unnecessary drain on OSMF's
>>> resources.
>>>
>>> In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata
 which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that
 have names currently.

 In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than
 Q for our unique ids.

 Cheers

 Mateusz Konieczny via talk  skrev: (9 augusti
 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
>
> or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM
> mappers?
> or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?
>
> Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com:
>
> is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?
>
> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE,  wrote:
>
> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>
> The rationale is explained here:
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>
> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well.
> Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the
> names or add name references (through the editors)
>
> Substantial changes will have to be made:
> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow.
> It could probably be done on the fly.
> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying
> any object.
> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
> wikidata.
> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata
> objects.
>
> These seems like large burdens to dump on open source developers.
>>>
 * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should
> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do
> that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users
> to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>
> I'm not sure if I have a Wikidata account so this is a non-issue for
>>> me.
>>>

> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM
> closer than the islands they are today.
>
> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already
> prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better
> quality, better modeled, 

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

I disagree. With (permanent) unique ids is trivial and the overhead is IMO 
neglible. 

Its not rocket science to query an API endpoint from any programming language. 
All our data consumers are already doing this. 

I made a simple map in a few hours that query both overpass and wikidata based 
on the osmid to find links to images of shelters. See 
https://github.com/pangoSE/sheltermap

James  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:59:40 CEST)
>Not to mention the additional overhead of conflating two databases to
>get
>something essential like a name
>
>On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 7:57 a.m. Alan Mackie, 
>wrote:
>
>> This seems like a bad idea.
>>
>> Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not
>> always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a
>specific
>> wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious
>when it
>> comes to trademarks.
>>
>> We also should not be doing bulk name changes until we have verified
>that
>> the signage on the individual locations has actually changed.
>Depending on
>> the brand these could take years to ripple through to the individual
>> stores, and particularly 'historic' stores may retain old branding as
>part
>> of a conscious effort not to irk locals. Branding changes in the
>Wikidata
>> would likely be over-applied.
>>
>> Abandoning the name tags for chains would essentially be
>carte-blanche
>> permission for automated edits. As it stands now, a disagreement
>between
>> OSM name and Wikidata name may be a useful indicator that resurvey is
>> needed. If we abandon name tags we open the door to the introduction
>of
>> dodgy data that isn't caught by any of our QA tools because it
>doesn't even
>> have a changeset.
>>
>> If "duplication"  is really an issue, I would prefer to remove all
>> Wikidata tags than to depreciate names where they exist. Forcing
>> contributors to check an independant database before uploading survey
>> results seems like a lot of extra effort for a volunteer driven
>project.
>>
>> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 12:11, pangoSE  wrote:
>>
>>> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
>>> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our
>own
>>> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/
>>>
>>> It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.
>>>
>>> It would also be a new and currently unnecessary drain on OSMF's
>> resources.
>>
>> In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata
>>> which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects
>that
>>> have names currently.
>>>
>>> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix
>than Q
>>> for our unique ids.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Mateusz Konieczny via talk  skrev: (9
>augusti
>>> 2020 12:16:33 CEST)

 or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM
>mappers?
 or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them
>quickly?

 Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com:

 is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

 On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, 
>wrote:

 I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and
>updating
 names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

 The rationale is explained here:
 https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655

 This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as
>well.
 Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit
>the
 names or add name references (through the editors)

 Substantial changes will have to be made:
 * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata
>somehow.
 It could probably be done on the fly.
 * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when
>displaying
 any object.
 * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>wikidata.
 * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata
 objects.

 These seems like large burdens to dump on open source developers.
>>
>>> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We
>should
 unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how
>to do
 that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask
>users to
 create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?

 I'm not sure if I have a Wikidata account so this is a non-issue
>for
>> me.
>>
>>>
 I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM
>closer
 than the islands they are today.

 As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already
 prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply
>better
 quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected
>against
 vandalism.

 WDYT?

 Cheers
 pangoSE
 Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but
>to
 the wider 

Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[mmd]

On 2020-08-09 14:33, pangoSE wrote:


>> IIRC, Yuri already tried that when implementing Wikibase on our own
>> wiki, and it turned out to be massively complicated, not to say not
>> feasible at all. Didn't you follow that discussion back then?
> 
> I was not aware. Link? 
> Its not a dealbreaker for me but it would be nice to avoid confusion for non 
> SPARQL aware users.
> 

Here we go: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T202676


-- 




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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[James]

and if the solution is to download the data then download wikidata, it's
even more clunky than the name tag itself

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 8:29 a.m. Jeremy Harris,  wrote:

> On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote:
> > I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>
> > Substantial changes will have to be made:
> > * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow.
> It could probably be done on the fly.
> > * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying
> any object.
> > * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
>
> How would that work for an offline renderer?
> Not everyone has, or wants to have, their phone connected 24/7.
> --
> Cheers,
>   Jeremy
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
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talk@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

Hi

mmd  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 13:47:43 CEST)
>On 2020-08-09 13:05, pangoSE wrote:
>> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
>> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our
>own
>> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/
>
>Our own Wiki.openstreetmap.org already has a wikibase installed. You're
>not proposing to install another one?

Yes I am.

>
>
>> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix
>than
>> Q for our unique ids.
>> 
>
>IIRC, Yuri already tried that when implementing Wikibase on our own
>wiki, and it turned out to be massively complicated, not to say not
>feasible at all. Didn't you follow that discussion back then?

I was not aware. Link? 
Its not a dealbreaker for me but it would be nice to avoid confusion for non 
SPARQL aware users.

Cheers 

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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Jeremy Harris]

On 09/08/2020 09:25, pangoSE wrote:
> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names 
> in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

> Substantial changes will have to be made:
> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It 
> could probably be done on the fly.
> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any 
> object. 
> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.

How would that work for an offline renderer?
Not everyone has, or wants to have, their phone connected 24/7.
-- 
Cheers,
  Jeremy

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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[James]

Not to mention the additional overhead of conflating two databases to get
something essential like a name

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 7:57 a.m. Alan Mackie,  wrote:

> This seems like a bad idea.
>
> Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not
> always as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a specific
> wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious when it
> comes to trademarks.
>
> We also should not be doing bulk name changes until we have verified that
> the signage on the individual locations has actually changed. Depending on
> the brand these could take years to ripple through to the individual
> stores, and particularly 'historic' stores may retain old branding as part
> of a conscious effort not to irk locals. Branding changes in the Wikidata
> would likely be over-applied.
>
> Abandoning the name tags for chains would essentially be carte-blanche
> permission for automated edits. As it stands now, a disagreement between
> OSM name and Wikidata name may be a useful indicator that resurvey is
> needed. If we abandon name tags we open the door to the introduction of
> dodgy data that isn't caught by any of our QA tools because it doesn't even
> have a changeset.
>
> If "duplication"  is really an issue, I would prefer to remove all
> Wikidata tags than to depreciate names where they exist. Forcing
> contributors to check an independant database before uploading survey
> results seems like a lot of extra effort for a volunteer driven project.
>
> On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 12:11, pangoSE  wrote:
>
>> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
>> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own
>> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/
>>
>> It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.
>>
>> It would also be a new and currently unnecessary drain on OSMF's
> resources.
>
> In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata
>> which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that
>> have names currently.
>>
>> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q
>> for our unique ids.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Mateusz Konieczny via talk  skrev: (9 augusti
>> 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
>>>
>>> or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
>>> or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?
>>>
>>> Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com:
>>>
>>> is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?
>>>
>>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE,  wrote:
>>>
>>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
>>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>>
>>> The rationale is explained here:
>>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>>
>>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well.
>>> Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the
>>> names or add name references (through the editors)
>>>
>>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow.
>>> It could probably be done on the fly.
>>> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying
>>> any object.
>>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
>>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata
>>> objects.
>>>
>>> These seems like large burdens to dump on open source developers.
>
>> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should
>>> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do
>>> that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to
>>> create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if I have a Wikidata account so this is a non-issue for
> me.
>
>>
>>> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer
>>> than the islands they are today.
>>>
>>> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already
>>> prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better
>>> quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against
>>> vandalism.
>>>
>>> WDYT?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> pangoSE
>>> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to
>>> the wider ecosystem.___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Alan Mackie]

This seems like a bad idea.

Name tags are generally very easy to verify on the ground. It is not always
as easy to tell if a shop with a certain name belongs to a specific
wikidata entry, especially in jurisdictions that are less litigious when it
comes to trademarks.

We also should not be doing bulk name changes until we have verified that
the signage on the individual locations has actually changed. Depending on
the brand these could take years to ripple through to the individual
stores, and particularly 'historic' stores may retain old branding as part
of a conscious effort not to irk locals. Branding changes in the Wikidata
would likely be over-applied.

Abandoning the name tags for chains would essentially be carte-blanche
permission for automated edits. As it stands now, a disagreement between
OSM name and Wikidata name may be a useful indicator that resurvey is
needed. If we abandon name tags we open the door to the introduction of
dodgy data that isn't caught by any of our QA tools because it doesn't even
have a changeset.

If "duplication"  is really an issue, I would prefer to remove all Wikidata
tags than to depreciate names where they exist. Forcing contributors to
check an independant database before uploading survey results seems like a
lot of extra effort for a volunteer driven project.

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 at 12:11, pangoSE  wrote:

> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own
> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/
>
> It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.
>
> It would also be a new and currently unnecessary drain on OSMF's
resources.

In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata which
> is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that have
> names currently.
>
> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q
> for our unique ids.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mateusz Konieczny via talk  skrev: (9 augusti
> 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
>>
>> or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
>> or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?
>>
>> Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com:
>>
>> is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?
>>
>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE,  wrote:
>>
>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>
>> The rationale is explained here:
>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>
>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well.
>> Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the
>> names or add name references (through the editors)
>>
>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It
>> could probably be done on the fly.
>> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any
>> object.
>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
>>
>> These seems like large burdens to dump on open source developers.

> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should
>> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do
>> that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to
>> create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>>
>> I'm not sure if I have a Wikidata account so this is a non-issue for me.

>
>> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer
>> than the islands they are today.
>>
>> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already
>> prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better
>> quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against
>> vandalism.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Cheers
>> pangoSE
>> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to
>> the wider ecosystem.___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[mmd]

On 2020-08-09 13:05, pangoSE wrote:
> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own
> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

Our own Wiki.openstreetmap.org already has a wikibase installed. You're
not proposing to install another one?


> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than
> Q for our unique ids.
> 

IIRC, Yuri already tried that when implementing Wikibase on our own
wiki, and it turned out to be massively complicated, not to say not
feasible at all. Didn't you follow that discussion back then?

-- 





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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Stefano]

More than deprecating name=* to replace with Wikidata, it would be needed
deprecating it in favour of name:=* and leaving to the client the
decision of what language to render.
It would partially solve the multilanguage issue...

Stefano

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020, 13:11 pangoSE,  wrote:

> These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
> If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own
> wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/
>
> It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.
>
> In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata
> which is very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that
> have names currently.
>
> In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q
> for our unique ids.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mateusz Konieczny via talk  skrev: (9 augusti
> 2020 12:16:33 CEST)
>>
>> or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
>> or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?
>>
>> Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com:
>>
>> is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?
>>
>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE,  wrote:
>>
>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>
>> The rationale is explained here:
>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>
>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well.
>> Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the
>> names or add name references (through the editors)
>>
>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It
>> could probably be done on the fly.
>> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any
>> object.
>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
>> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should
>> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do
>> that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to
>> create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>>
>> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer
>> than the islands they are today.
>>
>> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already
>> prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better
>> quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected against
>> vandalism.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Cheers
>> pangoSE
>> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to
>> the wider ecosystem.___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
>> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

These are valid concerns. See my response to James.
If Wikimedia should become uncooperative we could easily set up our own 
wikibase installation. See https://www.wbstack.com/

It takes a few minutes plus some configuration time.

In fact this might be much better than forcing our data into wikidata which is 
very tied to education and does not accept all our objects that have names 
currently.

In case we take this route I would recommend having another prefix than Q for 
our unique ids.

Cheers

Mateusz Konieczny via talk  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 
12:16:33 CEST)
>or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM
>mappers?
>or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?
>
>Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com:
>
>> is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?
>>
>> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <> pang...@riseup.net> >
>wrote:
>>
>>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and
>updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>>
>>> The rationale is explained here:
>>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>>
>>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well.
>Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the
>names or add name references (through the editors)
>>>
>>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata
>somehow. It could probably be done on the fly.
>>> * >> openstreetmap.org >>  will need to
>fetch from wikidata when displaying any object. 
>>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>wikidata.
>>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata
>objects. 
>>> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We
>should unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on
>how to do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on >> osm.org
>>>  and ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead
>and log in with that? 
>>>
>>> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM
>closer than the islands they are today.
>>>
>>> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already
>prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply
>better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected
>against vandalism.
>>>
>>> WDYT?
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> pangoSE
>>> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but
>to the wider ecosystem.___
>>>  talk mailing list
>>>  >> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

Also a valid concern worth pondering. I guess having a local snapshot of 
wikidata on an osm controlled server should fix that. 

Wikibase is free software so we can set up our own in the very unlikely case 
that no-one else does it. 

Note that both Facebook, Microsoft and Google are dependent on wikidata now so 
it is very unlikely that it will cease to exist for the near future. 

If it ever becomes unstable someone is going to fork it rather quickly I think. 


James  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 11:45:02 CEST)
>is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?
>
>On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE,  wrote:
>
>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>
>> The rationale is explained here:
>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>
>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well.
>Every
>> OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the
>names or
>> add name references (through the editors)
>>
>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata
>somehow. It
>> could probably be done on the fly.
>> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying
>any
>> object.
>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>wikidata.
>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata
>objects.
>> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should
>> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to
>do
>> that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users
>to
>> create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>>
>> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM
>closer
>> than the islands they are today.
>>
>> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already
>prefer
>> Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better
>quality,
>> better modeled, better referenced and better protected against
>vandalism.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Cheers
>> pangoSE
>> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but
>to the
>> wider ecosystem.___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

or has downtime? or deletes data/items used by OSM? or bans OSM mappers?
or refuses to ban vandal/troll/harasser? or fails to ban them quickly?

Aug 9, 2020, 11:45 by james2...@gmail.com:

> is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?
>
> On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE, <> pang...@riseup.net> > wrote:
>
>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names 
>> in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>
>> The rationale is explained here:
>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>
>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every 
>> OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or 
>> add name references (through the editors)
>>
>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It 
>> could probably be done on the fly.
>> * >> openstreetmap.org >>  will need to fetch from 
>> wikidata when displaying any object. 
>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects. 
>> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify 
>> the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. 
>> Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on >> osm.org >>  and 
>> ask users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that? 
>>
>> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than 
>> the islands they are today.
>>
>> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer 
>> Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, 
>> better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Cheers
>> pangoSE
>> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the 
>> wider ecosystem.___
>>  talk mailing list
>>  >> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>  >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>

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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[James]

is there a contingency plan if wikipedia/wikimedia ceases to exist?

On Sun., Aug. 9, 2020, 4:29 a.m. pangoSE,  wrote:

> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>
> The rationale is explained here:
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>
> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every
> OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or
> add name references (through the editors)
>
> Substantial changes will have to be made:
> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It
> could probably be done on the fly.
> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any
> object.
> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should
> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do
> that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to
> create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>
> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer
> than the islands they are today.
>
> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer
> Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality,
> better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.
>
> WDYT?
>
> Cheers
> pangoSE
> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the
> wider ecosystem.___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Aug 9, 2020, 11:09 by pang...@riseup.net:

> >"there is no such thing as an international name. Names are part of a
> >language whih is part of a culture. They are not GIS objects and the 
> >osm datamodel does not handle this complexity well at all."
>
>>
>>
> >Are you aware that we have other tags beyond name tag?
>
> Yes
>
Then what kind of complexity is not handled by OSM?

> >loc_name, name:pl and many others?
>
That is not handled by already existing tags?
If there is some actual problem then it should be solved.


> >"No more name vandalism in osm. We export the name handling to
> >wikidata which has a much better system for handling vandalism."
>
>>
>>
> >Because vandalism in third-party service is superior?
> >Are you seriously claiming that Wikidata has less trouble with
> >vandalism
> >and deals with it better?
>
> Yes. The new york defacement could most probably have been avoided wih this 
> approach. 
>
How it would be avoided? 
How pulling data from Wikidata would change anything in such case?
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Lester Caine]

On 09/08/2020 09:42, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:

Aug 9, 2020, 10:25 by pang...@riseup.net :

I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and
updating names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

Absolutely no.

tagging name tag is a fundamental  part of OSM tag,
offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not happen

https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655 contains several misleading, 
wrong, mistaken
and problematic claims, statements and implications but I have no time 
to process in detail
as the entire idea is fundamentally bad, mistaken, problematic, broken, 
not workable,

not acceptable, not going to happen and wrong.


Seconded ...
However sensible LINKING to third party services does make sense such as 
with geonames which already has services linking back to OSM ... 
geonames is a useful source of local time data for example.


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.uk/wiki/Contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.uk
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

This is a valid concern. What I'm suggesting to solve that is to create a new 
property "OpenStreetMap name" that can hold names in multiple languages and 
every single one can be independently referenced.

Cheers

Simon Poole  skrev: (9 augusti 2020 10:36:34 CEST)
>The "names" in wikidata are mostly the names of WP pages for the object
>in question and have little to do with actually existing names (as per
>the OSM definition) of places.
>
>It would be a massive drop in quality if we would do the proposed
>switch.
>
>Simon
>
>Am 09.08.2020 um 10:25 schrieb pangoSE:
>> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
>> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>>
>> The rationale is explained here:
>> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>>
>> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well.
>> Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit
>the
>> names or add name references (through the editors)
>>
>> Substantial changes will have to be made:
>> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata
>somehow.
>> It could probably be done on the fly.
>> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying
>> any object.
>> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from
>wikidata.
>> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata
>objects.
>> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should
>> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to
>> do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask
>> users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>>
>> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM
>> closer than the islands they are today.
>>
>> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already
>> prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply
>> better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better
>protected
>> against vandalism.
>>
>> WDYT?
>>
>> Cheers
>> pangoSE
>> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but
>to
>> the wider ecosystem.
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Aug 9, 2020, 10:25 by pang...@riseup.net:

> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names 
> in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>
Absolutely no.

tagging name tag is a fundamental  part of OSM tag,
offloading it to a third party service is a mistake that will not happen

https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655 contains several misleading, wrong, 
mistaken
and problematic claims, statements and implications but I have no time to 
process in detail
as the entire idea is fundamentally bad, mistaken, problematic, broken, not 
workable,
not acceptable, not going to happen and wrong.

Some samples:

"there is no such thing as an international name. Names are part of a
language whih is part of a culture. They are not GIS objects and the 
osm datamodel does not handle this complexity well at all."

Are you aware that we have other tags beyond name tag?

loc_name, name:pl and many others?

"No more name vandalism in osm. We export the name handling to
wikidata which has a much better system for handling vandalism."

Because vandalism in third-party service is superior?
Are you seriously claiming that Wikidata has less trouble with vandalism
and deals with it better?

> Substantial changes will have to be made:
> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It 
> could probably be done on the fly.
>
Untrue, Nominatim is doing it already.

>  retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia 
> account instead and log in with that? 
>
If you think that it is a viable idea then you are mistaken.


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Re: [OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[Simon Poole]

The "names" in wikidata are mostly the names of WP pages for the object
in question and have little to do with actually existing names (as per
the OSM definition) of places.

It would be a massive drop in quality if we would do the proposed switch.

Simon

Am 09.08.2020 um 10:25 schrieb pangoSE:
> I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating
> names in OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.
>
> The rationale is explained here:
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655
>
> This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well.
> Every OSM user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the
> names or add name references (through the editors)
>
> Substantial changes will have to be made:
> * nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow.
> It could probably be done on the fly.
> * openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying
> any object.
> * rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
> * all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects.
> * maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should
> unify the logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to
> do that. Perhaps retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask
> users to create a Wikimedia account instead and log in with that?
>
> I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM
> closer than the islands they are today.
>
> As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already
> prefer Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply
> better quality, better modeled, better referenced and better protected
> against vandalism.
>
> WDYT?
>
> Cheers
> pangoSE
> Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to
> the wider ecosystem.
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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[OSM-talk] Roadmap for deprecation of name tags in OSM

[pangoSE]

I suggest we create a roadmap for deprecating of storing and updating names in 
OSM for objects with a Wikidata tag.

The rationale is explained here:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/19655

This of course affects the whole project and data consumers as well. Every OSM 
user will have to become a Wikidata user as well to edit the names or add name 
references (through the editors)

Substantial changes will have to be made:
* nominatim will need to support fetching names from wikidata somehow. It could 
probably be done on the fly.
* openstreetmap.org will need to fetch from wikidata when displaying any 
object. 
* rendering the standard map will have to support fetching from wikidata.
* all editors would have to fetch and enable editing of Wikidata objects. 
* maybe it no longer makes sense to have 2 separate logins? We should unify the 
logging in as much as possible. Ideas are welcome on how to do that. Perhaps 
retire signing up as OSM user on osm.org and ask users to create a Wikimedia 
account instead and log in with that? 

I personally don't see any problems connecting Wikimedia and OSM closer than 
the islands they are today.

As mentioned in the ticket above data consumers like Mapbox already prefer 
Wikidata names. I'm guessing thats because they are simply better quality, 
better modeled, better referenced and better protected against vandalism.

WDYT?

Cheers
pangoSE
Ps I choose this list because this not only relates to tagging, but to the 
wider ecosystem.___
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