Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Michael, thanks for your comments!

The original searchbox functionality has been restored, sorry for the
delay.  See also some related requests to make it even more useful. [1]

I have made some changes to the OpenStreetMap:Wikibase wiki page - could
you take a look?  I would love your help in creating a better guide, so any
feedback, suggestions, and outlines of how it should be done are welcome.
Feel free to even sketch some page content and I will be happy to improve
it with details.

We had 18 wonderful contributors to the new data system in just over a
week, providing hundreds of improvements. This seems to indicate that 1)
there is significant interest, especially in providing translations, and 2)
editing is not extremely difficult.  That said, we certainly should make it
even easier to use.

You do have a point about the validation rules and wiki.  As a developer,
you can create and maintain them yourself. It does require a lot of work,
reduces the number of contributors, and has far less community oversight,
but it gives the developer full control over the rules. Wiki solves most of
it, but gives you less control.  I think one approach is to mix the two,
e.g. run a simple script to generate and store the rules file from the
wiki. Every time you regenerate that file, you will see all the changes,
but you won't have to create them yourself.  Plus all other developers will
be looking at the same data, so there is far better chance of spotting
issues early on.

[1] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T190454

(P.S. Michael sorry for the dup, i made a few minor changes)
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Thu, Sep 27, 2018 at 9:50 AM Mateusz Konieczny <  matkoni...@tutanota.com
  > wrote:

> Main point of separate presets is that creator of an editor has control
> over it.
>

Mateusz, who should control an app's behavior - the developer or the
community?  Can app make certain editing choices because the dev feels it
should be a certain way, without consulting the community? Can community
make changes impacting the app?  Going too far into both direction seems
bad.  See my other post to Michael -- I think having a structured data
approach allows the dev to easily generate and compare versions of the
rules. This way both the community can easily modify the rules when needed,
and the dev can have a second glance over it, to see exactly what has
changed.

Essentially it is the same problem as with any other wiki, including osm
map data itself -- ease and speed of community's contributions vs
vandalism/errors.  Someone makes a mistake and half of Asia shows as being
under water (I saw that once on WP maps).  Someone else vandalizes NYC
name, and we get a lot of media attention... bad attention.

Devs cannot know all the mapping rules - they cannot be responsible for
checking them all. Instead, it would be better if we build good validation
practices around those rules, so that any vandalism or simple mistakes
become easy to spot, and very quick to fix.

(P.S. Mateusz, sorry for the dup)
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Mateusz Konieczny]

26. Sep 2018 21:18 by yuriastrak...@gmail.com :


> In the last week, we had 18 users making nearly 900 changes




For someone maintaining an editor it is a drawback, not benefit. On wiki if 
someone

decides to mark (for example) landuse=forest as wrong, evil and deprecated it 
will be 


just ignored or reverted.




If it would be imported into editor it may result in a buggy editor encouraging 
to make 


undesirable edits (undesirable as defined by author of the editor).





Main point of separate presets is that creator of an editor has control over it.
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Mateusz, I think we have a chance of success this time because unlike other
rulesets that are stored in the specific project's GIT repos, this project
is
* wiki based and centralized, just like the tag documentation, and
accessible to a much wider community.  In the last week, we had 18 users
making nearly 900 changes (in addition to the original bot import)
* offers tag documentation to the tools, not just rules, so they are more
likely to integrate with it even without the rules, and then switchover
* does not hardcode any structure of the rules - in a way it is "free form"
- allowing incremental growth.

This said, we should take it one step at a time.  First start using it as a
primary key/value multilingual description store and update wiki templates.
Migrate existing tools like TagInfo. Remove duplicate data from template
parameters.

Afterwards, we could expand the scope -- see if we can store validation
rules, presets, etc. for other tools, how complex can we get them, and many
other fun things...

On Wed, Sep 26, 2018 at 11:03 AM Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

>
> Part of Wikibase that are an attempt to create yet another preset and
> validator ruleset
> are probably not going to be used by anybody.
>
> Note that so far every editor creates its own (iD, Vespucci, JOSM...).
>
> 23. Sep 2018 14:05 by osm...@michreichert.de:
>
> TBH, if I were an editor developer, I would neither take regular
> expressions for validation rules nor all my presets from the wiki. The
> wiki can be edited by everyone. There are a lot people whose hobby is to
> edit the wiki to make it represent how they expect OSM and the usage of
> tags to be [1].
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Part of Wikibase that are an attempt to create yet another preset and validator 
ruleset 
are probably not going to be used by anybody.
Note that so far every editor creates its own (iD, Vespucci, JOSM...).

23. Sep 2018 14:05 by osm...@michreichert.de :


> TBH, if I were an editor developer, I would neither take regular
> expressions for validation rules nor all my presets from the wiki. The
> wiki can be edited by everyone. There are a lot people whose hobby is to
> edit the wiki to make it represent how they expect OSM and the usage of
> tags to be [1].
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 6:34 PM Christoph Hormann  wrote:

> > The content stored in Wikibase is editable by wiki users using a
> > regular wiki account, same as with other wiki pages.
>
> This i have no doubts about - but this is not the question.  The
> question is who is de facto in control of the information and in
> particular who defines what information is considered valid and what
> not.  And by designing the interfaces through which information and
> rules are entered you can pretty well control who will actually control
> the information.
>

Current system - one must know wiki markup to edit description, know how to
structure template parameters, how to create new pages and copy magical
parameters, translatewiki syntax, etc.  New system (once implemented): you
simply click "edit" next to the description of a key, it takes you to the
description page, you click edit again and modify existing description in a
clear form. To add a new language, switch to that language in the upper
right corner if you haven't already, and again - use edit and add the
description.

Unless you suggest that only those who understand wiki markup are allowed
to edit descriptions, the new system is clearly easier.  Also, noone is
stopping us from creating additional dedicated "description editors" -
where you can modify it via some other interface, but still using your wiki
login.

Note that neither old nor new system addresses the "who has the right to
change stuff", and "whose edit is correct".  If you want to propose it -
sure, but even then the new system allows us to build it, whereas the old
one does not.

>
> I am fine with editing the wiki to document tags, i am also fine with
> the various templates in there even if they are sometimes cumbersome to
> understand.  And i acknowledge that technologically the way templates
> are used in the OSM wiki is a dead end.  But this whole wikibase thing
> is repulsive to me in the way it communicates the human editor is
> supposed to serve the computer system and not the other way round.  The
> very idea of making up numerical identifiers for keys and tags which by
> definition already are unique identifiers is ridiculous.
>

You shouldn't worry about numeric identifiers. If you want, I can even show
you how you can hide them from your interface (using CSS). They are not
needed when editing descriptions.  Also, editing template parameters is
also "serving the computer system".

Long story short:  You will never get me to enter or edit tag
> documentation in such an interface which makes me think i have time
> traveled to the last century.


You mean wiki markup-style editing is 21st century? Seriously?


>   You will also not get me to write
> documentation in a place where non-human editors (a.k.a. bots) are
> allowed to modify what i wrote.


Bot is used to initially copy descriptions from the other wiki pages. Once
created, it will not modify description.  Other tools may -- e.g. JOSM or
iD editor could ask the user to enter/modify description in their language,
but it won't be automated. Consider iD editor as an alternative UI to the
wikibase, but the edit will show up as a regular user edit, not a bot.


>   Apart from that if you find a way to
> improve they way in which tag documentation is stored and processed
> without sacrificing ergonomics and intuitive adaptability of the way it
> is entered for typical mappers i will be all for it.
>

Per above, I think it already does - editing template params is by far less
intuitive than filling out a "description" filed in your language.  Also,
it is possible to make a description editor that appear directly in the tag
page (e.g. with a js gadget).
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Christoph Hormann]

On Sunday 23 September 2018, Tobias Knerr wrote:
> On 23.09.2018 17:07, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> > If you'd now impose
> > technical constraints preventing mappers from documenting things
> > that do not match a certain ideal of structure would you would
> > effectively make the wiki unsuitable for its primary application
> > and mappers would need to set up a new place to document their
> > tags.
>
> The content stored in Wikibase is editable by wiki users using a
> regular wiki account, same as with other wiki pages.

This i have no doubts about - but this is not the question.  The 
question is who is de facto in control of the information and in 
particular who defines what information is considered valid and what 
not.  And by designing the interfaces through which information and 
rules are entered you can pretty well control who will actually control 
the information.

I am fine with editing the wiki to document tags, i am also fine with 
the various templates in there even if they are sometimes cumbersome to 
understand.  And i acknowledge that technologically the way templates 
are used in the OSM wiki is a dead end.  But this whole wikibase thing 
is repulsive to me in the way it communicates the human editor is 
supposed to serve the computer system and not the other way round.  The 
very idea of making up numerical identifiers for keys and tags which by 
definition already are unique identifiers is ridiculous.

Long story short:  You will never get me to enter or edit tag 
documentation in such an interface which makes me think i have time 
traveled to the last century.  You will also not get me to write 
documentation in a place where non-human editors (a.k.a. bots) are 
allowed to modify what i wrote.  Apart from that if you find a way to 
improve they way in which tag documentation is stored and processed 
without sacrificing ergonomics and intuitive adaptability of the way it 
is entered for typical mappers i will be all for it.

The OSM wiki has a lot of problems and deficits but the vast majority of 
them are social in nature and will not be solved by means of 
technology - even if said technology is not on the level of the last 
century.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Christoph Hormann]

On Sunday 23 September 2018, Andrew Hain wrote:
> Could you give some examples so that the wider OSM community can do
> something about it?

I am somewhat reluctant to point to specific people here but there are 
in particular a few fans of key systematics who eagerly defend their 
view on how tags are supposed to be used and who are quick to revert 
any edits that document tags being used differently or that might 
suggest to readers the use of tags other than the 'correct' ones.

You can find examples for that in the edit histories of various 
landcover and landuse tag and key pages.

-- 
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http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Tobias Knerr]

On 23.09.2018 17:07, Christoph Hormann wrote:
> If you'd now impose 
> technical constraints preventing mappers from documenting things that 
> do not match a certain ideal of structure would you would effectively 
> make the wiki unsuitable for its primary application and mappers would 
> need to set up a new place to document their tags.

The content stored in Wikibase is editable by wiki users using a regular
wiki account, same as with other wiki pages.

Ultimately, this is simply a different implementation of the infoboxes
that already exist on the wiki's key and tag pages. An implementation
that will be easier to maintain and easier to parse for projects like
Taginfo (which already parses today's infoboxes, but has to jump through
a lot of hoops to do so). But it isn't any more restrictive than filling
in the parameters of today's infobox.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018, 14:58 Christoph Hormann  wrote:

>
> For clarification:  The main purpose of the OSM wiki is to allow mappers
> to document tags they use and allow them to coordinate and communicate
> about this use of tags with other mappers.


Agree

If you have some data
> collecting application related to OSM tags it would be advisable to
> maintain this outside the OSM wiki - like for example taginfo and
> taghistory do.
>
> Mixing systematic data collection into the OSM wiki is just asking for
> trouble.


Not sure what you are referring to. Wikbase project is designed to be the
primary source of the tag description. This will NOT replace the freeform
wiki page that describe finer points of the tag usage. But it will simplify
the info card, and help all other projects that need tag documentation,
this fulfilling the primary goal even better.

Other projects like taginfo will have an easier time using that data.
Currently, it has considerable and error prone code to parse wiki markup.
Fewer errors and easier data usage should lead to better tools for the
mappers.
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Andrew Hain]

Could you give some examples so that the wider OSM community can do something 
about it?

--
Andrew


From: Christoph Hormann 


We already have quite a few people on the wiki who try to forbid mappers
accurately documenting widely used tags because these tags are bad in
terms of certain systematics and should not 
exist.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Yuri Astrakhan]

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 2:36 PM Richard  wrote:

> > Key:bridge:movable:https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q104
> > Tag:bridge:movable=bascule:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q888
>
> how do I get at other language's versions, and how do I get easily at the
> original source of the information (description text) to fix it?
>
>
Richard, the original information has not changed in any form just yet.
There are several ways to get to docs from the search box:
* type the exact page name with the language, e.g. "FR:Key:bridge:movable"
and hit enter
* type the exact page name, e.g. "Key:bridge:movable" (without quotes) and
hit enter, Select language at the top.
* type "bridge:movable" and click "search in content" (last item in the
dropdown)
* type bridge:movable, open the wikibase entry, and click the big link in
the upper right corner

I am hoping to enable search autocomplete back, but it might mean that we
won't be able to find wikibase items as easily (which might be ok)

The general hope is that once the data has been copied to wikibase items,
all of the existing {{KeyDescription}}, {{ValueDescription}}, and
{{RelationDescription}} templates will use that data directly. The data
will also be localized - so in a French version of the page, it will
automatically use french descriptions, unless they don't exist, and it
would show English (until translated).

There will be a small link next to each value that came from Wikibase. If
you click it, it will take you to the wikibase entry, where you will be
able to edit descriptions in all of the languages.

 Also, the tables of tags will also be generated directly from that data,
which will allow us not to use all the crazy template inclusion magic (e.g.
using the same table on multiple pages will not require storing it in a
template).
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Christoph Hormann]

On Sunday 23 September 2018, Tobias Knerr wrote:
>
> > I suspect that the attempts for more structured metadata won't be
> > really accepted by the community (the editors of the wiki).
>
> As one of the more active editors of the wiki, I'm very hopeful for
> this project. The current "solution" for this kind of data is to
> manually copy templates across several pages. This is a massive pain
> point and leads to pages unintentionally getting out of sync all the
> time.

For clarification:  The main purpose of the OSM wiki is to allow mappers 
to document tags they use and allow them to coordinate and communicate 
about this use of tags with other mappers.  If you have some data 
collecting application related to OSM tags it would be advisable to 
maintain this outside the OSM wiki - like for example taginfo and 
taghistory do.

Mixing systematic data collection into the OSM wiki is just asking for 
trouble.  The OSM wiki is not Wikipedia.  It is also not a playground 
for wiki curators who want to manage it as a standalone project 
describing their ideas on how OSM should look like, it is meant to be 
used by mappers to describe what OSM actually looks like (which often 
happens to be unstructured and non-systematic).

We already have quite a few people on the wiki who try to forbid mappers 
accurately documenting widely used tags because these tags are bad in 
terms of certain systematics and should not exist.  If you'd now impose 
technical constraints preventing mappers from documenting things that 
do not match a certain ideal of structure would you would effectively 
make the wiki unsuitable for its primary application and mappers would 
need to set up a new place to document their tags.

-- 
Christoph Hormann
http://www.imagico.de/

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Richard]

Hi,

> as of today, OSM Wiki can store structured tag metadata similar to
> Wikidata.  In every possible language, cross-linked, with images,
> validation rules, or anything else the community decides to store there.
> See examples:
> 
> Key:bridge:movable:https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q104
> Tag:bridge:movable=bascule:   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q888

how do I get at other language's versions, and how do I get easily at the 
original source of the information (description text) to fix it?

Richard

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Tobias Knerr]

On 23.09.2018 14:05, Michael Reichert wrote:
> Currently, the search of the wiki is not really useful any more.

Indeed, the search field is pretty much broken at the moment.

However, this has been brought up on the wiki talk page, and Yuri said
he was looking for a fix. So I think it's safe to say that this is not
intended behavior, at least.

> I suspect that the attempts for more structured metadata won't be really
> accepted by the community (the editors of the wiki).

As one of the more active editors of the wiki, I'm very hopeful for this
project. The current "solution" for this kind of data is to manually
copy templates across several pages. This is a massive pain point and
leads to pages unintentionally getting out of sync all the time.

Of course, it's still too early to say whether the idea will work out.
But I'm willing to help it succeed.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Dave F]

Hi

If I type 'bridge' into the wiki search & press return it loads the 
Key:bridge
However if I type it & select the top response in the popdown it takes 
me to Q103, which AFAICS is of no help to anyone, least of all newcomers 
who are most likely to use the wiki.


1) Why the difference in selection?
2) What benefits do your actions bring to OSM contributors?

Cheers
DaveF

On 18/09/2018 10:30, Yuri Astrakhan wrote:

Osmaritans,

as of today, OSM Wiki can store structured tag metadata similar to 
Wikidata.  In every possible language, cross-linked, with images, 
validation rules, or anything else the community decides to store 
there. See examples:


Key:bridge:movable: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q104
Tag:bridge:movable=bascule: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q888

I have imported most frequent Keys from the TagInfo, plus parsed wiki 
pages to try to get multilingual descriptions, images, etc.  Our next 
step is to add more descriptive properties, translations, 
validations(?), better images. The structured data is accessible via 
Lua (our new templating language), so at some point we may want to 
replace info cards and tables(?) with the automatically generated ones.


Help is needed: our wiki is large and multilingual. If you can help, 
especially if you can run a wiki bot to automate some data parsing and 
wikibase item creation, please reply. When editing, please do not 
change or translate the "label" field. Only use description field for 
the translation efforts, add statements, etc. If you need new 
properties, please write at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap_talk:Wikibase


Other fun links:

Documentation: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap:Wikibase
All items: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:AllPages?from===120
Other bridge:movable tags: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AWhatLinksHere=Item%3AQ104=120


Reg-ex based validation rules: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q574#P13


For many Key:* pages, you will now see a link on the left side 
"OpenStreetMap Wiki item".


P.S.  Big thank you goes to Tom Hughes for helping to launch this project!


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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Michael Reichert]

Hi Yuri,

Am 18.09.18 um 11:30 schrieb Yuri Astrakhan:
> as of today, OSM Wiki can store structured tag metadata similar to
> Wikidata.  In every possible language, cross-linked, with images,
> validation rules, or anything else the community decides to store there.
> See examples:
> 
> Key:bridge:movable:https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q104
> Tag:bridge:movable=bascule:   https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Item:Q888
> 
> I have imported most frequent Keys from the TagInfo, plus parsed wiki pages
> to try to get multilingual descriptions, images, etc.  Our next step is to
> add more descriptive properties, translations, validations(?), better
> images. The structured data is accessible via Lua (our new templating
> language), so at some point we may want to replace info cards and tables(?)
> with the automatically generated ones.
> 
> Help is needed: our wiki is large and multilingual. If you can help,
> especially if you can run a wiki bot to automate some data parsing and
> wikibase item creation, please reply. When editing, please do not change or
> translate the "label" field. Only use description field for the translation
> efforts, add statements, etc. If you need new properties, please write at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap_talk:Wikibase

Have you considered the side effects of this change?

Currently, the search of the wiki is not really useful any more. If I
search for any page and type the correct page title, the autocompletion
only returns Wikidata based results but no page titles. IMHO, this is
more harmful than the absence of structured data on the wiki which could
be stored outside the wiki as well.

I suspect that the attempts for more structured metadata won't be really
accepted by the community (the editors of the wiki). I don't find
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap:Wikibase really
helpful to understand what to do and how to do it. Is there any better
explanation on the wiki?

TBH, if I were an editor developer, I would neither take regular
expressions for validation rules nor all my presets from the wiki. The
wiki can be edited by everyone. There are a lot people whose hobby is to
edit the wiki to make it represent how they expect OSM and the usage of
tags to be [1].

Best regards

Michael


[1] I did that in some cases in the past, too.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Yuri Astrakhan]

Everyone, please ignore the "don't edit or translate the label"
restriction.  There is now a dedicated ID P16 property.

We can change label to be more useful to the new editors, e.g. "name in
English" instead of "name:en"

Thanks!

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018, 18:01 Shu Higashi  wrote:

> Hi Yuri, thanks for offering this feature.
>
> > When editing, please do not
> > change or translate the "label"
> > field. Only use description field for
> > the translation efforts,
>
> Can you please explain the reason for this? Is it both the label of items
> and properties that should not be translated?
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] OSM Wikibase is now live

[Shu Higashi]

Hi Yuri, thanks for offering this feature.

> When editing, please do not
> change or translate the "label"
> field. Only use description field for
> the translation efforts,

Can you please explain the reason for this? Is it both the label of items
and properties that should not be translated?
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