Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-09-01 13:14, Dave F. wrote:

That the icon is used purely as a place holder & *removed* when a
picture is added proves its irrelevance.

Why would a newbie care or even need to know the XML structure of the 
database?


Why is that relevant?


The wiki has to be a clear & simple as possible.


Disagree. The wiki also has to go into detail. The wiki has to cover 
every angle. But that is also not relevant here.



"I see that icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a
assortment of icons within the page."
"the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search on the raw
data rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map."

Sorry, but I don't really understand what you've said there.


I don't understand the issue. Why is the icon confusing? Why would it be 
wrong to have this icon if there are people that don't care about the 
XML structure? Other people may care and it is not confusing for them. I 
don't even see why the icon could be confusing. The icon is there 
because there is no specific icon for the value. If you don't want this 
icon th show, insert an icon for the value.

Really, I do not understand your problem with the icon.

Regards,
Maarten



On 30/08/2015 20:15, Lester Caine wrote:

On 30/08/15 13:02, Dave F. wrote:
As it doesn't help anyone learn the basics of OSM, it has no purpose 
on

a wiki & be removed.

The fact that there are now two identical icons is a little careless,
but that icon has a very valid place on both the original pages (
multiple languages ) that explaon exactly what a tag is, and I see 
that
icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a assortment 
of

icons within the page. YES is some places it has been used where there
is not currently an available icon on the rendering which has now been
added, but often the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to 
search

on the raw data rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map. It
has very well defined uses, which may need an element of tidying up, 
but

if you remove it do you start by wiping the basic 'tags' pages?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tags is a basic starting point and
k=v makes perfect sense ...




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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 30.08.2015 um 12:50 schrieb "ajt1...@gmail.com" :
> 
> It's a wiki.  If you think you can improve it, do so.


yes, it is a wiki, but I appreciate that he's asking here before making a 
change that will affect many pages. Just because everybody has write access 
does not mean changes shouldn't be discussed beforehand (e.g. it happens a lot 
that people silently, and often not instantly noticed by others, change the 
definition of introduced tags, creating hereby confusion amongst other 
contributors who then read it. This might even lead to deprecation of tags 
because it becomes unclear which of the parallel meanings does apply).

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Dave F.]

That the icon is used purely as a place holder & *removed* when a 
picture is added proves its irrelevance.


Why would a newbie care or even need to know the XML structure of the 
database?


The wiki has to be a clear & simple as possible.

"I see that icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a 
assortment of icons within the page."
"the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search on the raw data 
rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map."


Sorry, but I don't really understand what you've said there.

Dave F.

On 30/08/2015 20:15, Lester Caine wrote:

On 30/08/15 13:02, Dave F. wrote:

As it doesn't help anyone learn the basics of OSM, it has no purpose on
a wiki & be removed.

The fact that there are now two identical icons is a little careless,
but that icon has a very valid place on both the original pages (
multiple languages ) that explaon exactly what a tag is, and I see that
icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a assortment of
icons within the page. YES is some places it has been used where there
is not currently an available icon on the rendering which has now been
added, but often the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search
on the raw data rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map. It
has very well defined uses, which may need an element of tidying up, but
if you remove it do you start by wiping the basic 'tags' pages?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tags is a basic starting point and
k=v makes perfect sense ...




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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Lester Caine]

On 01/09/15 12:14, Dave F. wrote:
> That the icon is used purely as a place holder & *removed* when a
> picture is added proves its irrelevance.
> 
> Why would a newbie care or even need to know the XML structure of the
> database?

That there is a lot of material that is NOT rendered on the map is a
fact. These do not have icons so the k=v is the IDEAL icon for entries
in the wiki that ARE only available as XML data.

> The wiki has to be a clear & simple as possible.
> 
> "I see that icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a
> assortment of icons within the page."
> "the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search on the raw data
> rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map."
> 
> Sorry, but I don't really understand what you've said there.

You seem to think that every page only as a single icon associated with
it? A large number of pages have a column for the icon that relates to
those sub-entries the page describes. Some sub-elements will again not
be available rendered on a map. Perhaps we should simply strip the icon
on the page header when there is no single selection, but it is a useful
prompt that the page contains key/value data rather than other types of
material.

Are we now saying that the wiki is only allowed to document key/value
elements that are rendered and therefore have to have icons defined? The
growing number of maps do have different lists of rendered objects so
even the fact that a page has an icon does not mean you will see it on
the map you are looking at.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[ajt1...@gmail.com]

On 30/08/2015 10:34, Dave F. wrote:


I'm looking for either a valid reason to keep it  if there is none, 
remove it.


Poor/lazy wiki page design doesn't seem a valid one.

Neither is giving irrelevant, baffling info to newbies. We're meant to 
be encouraging people to join in, not turn them away.


It's a wiki.  If you think you can improve it, do so.

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Dave F.]

On 27/08/2015 11:13, Maarten Deen wrote:

On 2015-08-27 11:21, Dave F. wrote:

On 26/08/2015 21:54, Andrew Hain wrote:

Dave F. davefox at madasafish.com writes:


Hi

Bearing in mind the wiki is used more often by new OSM

contributors 

therefore should be a clear  concise as possible, I'm curious why

this

icon is so
prevalent:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/5/5f/Osm_element_tag.sv
g/200px-Osm_element_tag.svg.png

There's no description of what it means or relates to. It refers

purely

to 'behind the scenes' business. New users are interested in that.

Even

if it were described, it would still be irrelevant as *all* tags

are

based on a key=value format.

The graphic is used when there isn’t a specific image to put in a
tag value infobox, with a k= graphic for key descriptions. A “No
image yet” graphic used to be used. The message is buried within the
{{description}} template. Although there are some pages that could
have pictures but don’t it doesn’t always make sense to have one.


If there's not a specific image, can't it just be ignored  start with
'description' or whatever?
The k=v icons are irrelevant to people who edit the map.


It is a placeholder image that probably the person making the first 
page about a key/value combination made and got taken over in the 
template and though that mechanism got so prominent in all tag pages. 
Don't look for more behind it.


Unsure what you mean by that last comment.

I'm looking for either a valid reason to keep it  if there is none, 
remove it.


Poor/lazy wiki page design doesn't seem a valid one.

Neither is giving irrelevant, baffling info to newbies. We're meant to 
be encouraging people to join in, not turn them away.




BTW: why are there two k=v images in the wiki? Some reconstructing 
leads to the wiki page of this image at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osm_element_tag.svg

but there is also http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Mf_tag.svg

The Mf_tag.svg image is used in pages where the key-value system is 
explained, so the image is not unnecessary as such.
But since Osm_element_tag.svg is more abundantly used, I propose to 
change all occurences of Mf_tag.svg to Osm_element_tag.svg.


Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Lester Caine]

On 30/08/15 13:02, Dave F. wrote:
 As it doesn't help anyone learn the basics of OSM, it has no purpose on
 a wiki  be removed.

The fact that there are now two identical icons is a little careless,
but that icon has a very valid place on both the original pages (
multiple languages ) that explaon exactly what a tag is, and I see that
icon as an indication that the detail I'm looking at has a assortment of
icons within the page. YES is some places it has been used where there
is not currently an available icon on the rendering which has now been
added, but often the only way of viewing data tagged by k=v is to search
on the raw data rather than expecting an icon to appear on the map. It
has very well defined uses, which may need an element of tidying up, but
if you remove it do you start by wiping the basic 'tags' pages?
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tags is a basic starting point and
k=v makes perfect sense ...

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Dave F.]

I'd love to, but know I'd make a pigs ear of it. Unlike many people I'm 
aware of my limitations.


Those limitations, however, are not valid reasons for keeping this icon. 
As it doesn't help anyone learn the basics of OSM, it has no purpose on 
a wiki  be removed.


Dave F.

On 30/08/2015 11:50, ajt1...@gmail.com wrote:



On 30/08/2015 10:34, Dave F. wrote:


I'm looking for either a valid reason to keep it  if there is none, 
remove it.


Poor/lazy wiki page design doesn't seem a valid one.

Neither is giving irrelevant, baffling info to newbies. We're meant 
to be encouraging people to join in, not turn them away.


It's a wiki.  If you think you can improve it, do so.

Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Maarten Deen]

On 2015-08-27 11:21, Dave F. wrote:

On 26/08/2015 21:54, Andrew Hain wrote:

Dave F. davefox at madasafish.com writes:


Hi

Bearing in mind the wiki is used more often by new OSM

contributors 

therefore should be a clear  concise as possible, I'm curious why

this

icon is so
prevalent:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/5/5f/Osm_element_tag.sv
g/200px-Osm_element_tag.svg.png

There's no description of what it means or relates to. It refers

purely

to 'behind the scenes' business. New users are interested in that.

Even

if it were described, it would still be irrelevant as *all* tags

are

based on a key=value format.

The graphic is used when there isn’t a specific image to put in a
tag value infobox, with a k= graphic for key descriptions. A “No
image yet” graphic used to be used. The message is buried within the
{{description}} template. Although there are some pages that could
have pictures but don’t it doesn’t always make sense to have one.


If there's not a specific image, can't it just be ignored  start with
'description' or whatever?
The k=v icons are irrelevant to people who edit the map.


It is a placeholder image that probably the person making the first page 
about a key/value combination made and got taken over in the template 
and though that mechanism got so prominent in all tag pages. Don't look 
for more behind it.


BTW: why are there two k=v images in the wiki? Some reconstructing leads 
to the wiki page of this image at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Osm_element_tag.svg

but there is also http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Mf_tag.svg

The Mf_tag.svg image is used in pages where the key-value system is 
explained, so the image is not unnecessary as such.
But since Osm_element_tag.svg is more abundantly used, I propose to 
change all occurences of Mf_tag.svg to Osm_element_tag.svg.


Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Dave F.]

On 26/08/2015 21:54, Andrew Hain wrote:

Dave F. davefox at madasafish.com writes:


Hi

Bearing in mind the wiki is used more often by new OSM

contributors 

therefore should be a clear  concise as possible, I'm curious why

this

icon is so
prevalent:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/5/5f/Osm_element_tag.sv
g/200px-Osm_element_tag.svg.png

There's no description of what it means or relates to. It refers

purely

to 'behind the scenes' business. New users are interested in that.

Even

if it were described, it would still be irrelevant as *all* tags

are

based on a key=value format.

The graphic is used when there isn’t a specific image to put in a
tag value infobox, with a k= graphic for key descriptions. A “No
image yet” graphic used to be used. The message is buried within the
{{description}} template. Although there are some pages that could
have pictures but don’t it doesn’t always make sense to have one.


If there's not a specific image, can't it just be ignored  start with 
'description' or whatever?

The k=v icons are irrelevant to people who edit the map.




In a similar vein I notice a few wiki pages concerning tagging

have XML

OSM database code. Completely unnecessary  again, might put off

users

who believe you have to have programming experience to contribute.

Where?


Of the top of my head: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:multipolygon
The information it's trying to convey could be written in a much 
clearer, more understandable layout.


A while back I noticed a few others, but didn't keep a record. They may 
have been upgraded since.



Cheers
Dave F.

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Re: [OSM-talk] What's the point of the Wiki 'k=v' icon?

[Andrew Hain]

Dave F. davefox at madasafish.com writes:

 
 Hi
 
 Bearing in mind the wiki is used more often by new OSM 
contributors  
 therefore should be a clear  concise as possible, I'm curious why 
this 
 icon is so
 prevalent:
 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/5/5f/Osm_element_tag.sv
g/200px-Osm_element_tag.svg.png 
 
 There's no description of what it means or relates to. It refers 
purely 
 to 'behind the scenes' business. New users are interested in that. 
Even 
 if it were described, it would still be irrelevant as *all* tags 
are 
 based on a key=value format.

The graphic is used when there isn’t a specific image to put in a 
tag value infobox, with a k= graphic for key descriptions. A “No 
image yet” graphic used to be used. The message is buried within the 
{{description}} template. Although there are some pages that could 
have pictures but don’t it doesn’t always make sense to have one.

 In a similar vein I notice a few wiki pages concerning tagging 
have XML 
 OSM database code. Completely unnecessary  again, might put off 
users 
 who believe you have to have programming experience to contribute.

Where?

 Dave F.



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