date:20110415


Hi,

(Thread moved over from talk)

On 04/15/2011 05:55 PM, Kai Krueger wrote:

In addition, it is imho not clear that not some of the many imports listed
as Attribution licensed wouldn't fall into this category, too (rather than
in category 3 as CC-BY).


To be clear, my category 3 was meant for *everything* that would be 
theoretically compatible but lacks the authorisation to sublicense. The 
category 4 introduced by David Groom was a hypothetical category that 
did have the sublicensing option but was somehow otherwise incompatible 
with the CT.



So we are back to
nothing is compatible with the CTs other than a PD (like) license?


The Ordnance Survey Open Data License, for example, explicitly permits 
sublicensing so that one would be ok. Also, NearMap imagery could easily 
be made compatible if NearMap were to say yeah fine, everyone has the 
right to allow OSMF to sublicence under CC-BY-SA or ODbL.


The change in the CT means that in the early versions, you had to vouch 
for the data you contribute being compatible with any future license 
change. This isn't the case any more, you only have to say that it is 
compatible with the current license and that you have the right to 
authorize OSMF to distribute the data under that license.


This last sentence, when read strictly, rules out the import of plain 
CC-BY-SA or ODbL data sets without the sublicensing option.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Francis Davey

On 15 April 2011 19:35, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:


 In addition, it is imho not clear that not some of the many imports listed
 as Attribution licensed wouldn't fall into this category, too (rather
 than
 in category 3 as CC-BY).

I haven't seen this list so cannot comment.

[snip]


 The Ordnance Survey Open Data License, for example, explicitly permits
 sublicensing so that one would be ok. Also, NearMap imagery could easily be

I am afraid it wouldn't be OK because it requires that all
sub-licenses (including onward sub-licenses) have a specified
attribution statement. That is a restriction on use which means that a
contributor (as licensee) does not have sufficient right to grant all
the rights granted in clause 2.

There's a practical outworking of this: the attribution and licence
structure of OSMF does not appear to require me a user of OSM to add
the specified attribution statement myself, which is a requirement of
the Ordnance Survey Open Data Licence.

 made compatible if NearMap were to say yeah fine, everyone has the right to
 allow OSMF to sublicence under CC-BY-SA or ODbL.

Better would be the right to grant all rights to OSMF. A lot more is
being granted than just a right to sublicense under CC-BY-SA etc.


 The change in the CT means that in the early versions, you had to vouch for
 the data you contribute being compatible with any future license change.
 This isn't the case any more, you only have to say that it is compatible
 with the current license and that you have the right to authorize OSMF to
 distribute the data under that license.

 This last sentence, when read strictly, rules out the import of plain
 CC-BY-SA or ODbL data sets without the sublicensing option.

If I understand you correctly, that's right. Clause 2 appears to
prevent most licensed data from being imported. Recently on this list
(I think) we were pointed at the LWG's minutes where it was decided to
take this approach to avoid various risks to OSMF.

-- 
Francis Davey

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Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday


Hi,

On 04/15/2011 09:16 PM, Francis Davey wrote:

In addition, it is imho not clear that not some of the many
imports listed as Attribution licensed wouldn't fall into this
category, too (rather than in category 3 as CC-BY).


I haven't seen this list so cannot comment.


Sorry for that. I had been drawn into a legal discussion on talk and
decided to move it back here, without giving proper context. The context
is this:

Someone asked wether, if we someone has agreed to CT but
we later find out his contribution was tainted (their wording), we
would then delete all data contributed by that person. My answer was:


If data is tainted in a way that makes in incompatible with the
currently used license then it will have to be removed in order not
to put the project at risk (e.g. data copied from proprietary
sources). This is independent of the license change.

If data is tainted in a way that makes it compatible with the
currently used license, but it is likely that the data will have to
be removed should OSM ever change to a different license under the
CT 2/3 of active mappers clause, then things are difficult - it
would certainly be better in the long run to replace such data by
data that is fully compliant, and I would estimate tools to be
developed that would aim to gradually phase out such limited-release
data and make sure such data is not used to build upon if it can be
avoided. But I don't think it would be removed outright - I guess the
decision will be delayed until such time as anyone actually proposes
changing the license again.

There's also a third kind of tainted that sits in the middle of
these two, namely data that has e.g. been released CC-BY. Such data
looks compatible at first, but closer inspection (see current
discussion on legal-talk) reveals that CC-BY explicitly forbids
sublicensing, and sublicensing is what the new scheme is all about.
So in that case we'd have a legal outcome (data being distributed
with attribution) but an untidy process that took us there. I don't
know if this is a minor problem that can be ignored, or a
showstopper.


Note that with this third kind I was basically trying to echo what you
(FD) had written earlier on legal-talk.

The list mentioned in the quote at the top of this email is
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue.

Someone replied to my message with:


There's also a fourth kind of tainted data. Data that might be
compatible with CC-BY-SA, and might be compatible with ODbL, but is
incompatible with the CT's.


To which I again replied


It would be very hard to construct something of that kind. The most
common thing is certainly going to be the above third case, where
you have the right to distribute data under CC-BY-SA or maybe even
ODbL or maybe you even have the right to distribute it under any
license with a BY component, but you do not have the right to
authorize a third party (OSMF) to perform such distribution.

For data of your fourth kind you would have to have a data provider
who says you can use my data under CC-BY-SA or ODbL, and you have
the right to sublicense not only under these licenses, but you also
under these licenses plus the additional privilege of further
sublicensing. I'm not aware of such a situation even existing.


If you find anything wrong with that, I'm happy to correct my own 
statement on talk.


I shouldn't have started replying to legal stuff on talk in the first 
place. Normally i only say if you want to discuss this come to 
legal-talk...


Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] We Need to Stop Google's Exploitation of Open Communities


Mikel,

On 04/11/2011 05:27 PM, Mikel Maron wrote:

http://brainoff.com/weblog/2011/04/11/1635


In the following message, all quotes are from your blog post.

I've given this matter some thought and I think while your concerns are 
legitimate, you are perhaps overreacting a bit.


OpenStreetMap and Google have always been friendly competitors. We have 
profited a lot from Google. They have invented many things that we could 
copy (e.g. the slippy map); they have blazed a trail that we could 
follow, they have made online maps into the commodity they are, they 
have established the product and created the market.


How often have I had it easy to OSM to someone because I could say: This 
is just like Google Maps, just that list differences.


Google have also supported us directly. Ed Parsons being present at a 
number of State of the Map conferences has given us a credibility boost 
in the eyes of many (when they could also have sent a low-ranking minion 
for information gathering). Google gave us cash for a new server at a 
time when money wasn't flowing like it is today; and they have given our 
project Summer of Code stipends even though it would have been perfectly 
in their right to say no, we don't want to support the competition.


On top of all this, they have patiently accepted that we are bashing 
their product nearly every time we market OSM: We are like Google 
Maps, only better!



Google’s strategy is to build market in Africa by appropriating the
appearance of open data community methodologies, yet maintaining
corporate control of what should rightfully be a common resource.


I share your sentiment, but I have long given up fighting this. I stand 
aghast at someone waving their iPhone, asking them why on earth they 
willfully submit to Apple's dictate over what they can and cannot do on 
this little machine that, for many, quickly becomes an integral part of 
their life. Their answer: It just works! - I see people uploading half 
their lifes to Twitter, geocaching.com, Facebook, and I say don't you 
know these are closed platforms operated by commercial entities with the 
aim of maintaining corporate control? - and they go but everyone does 
it, and it works so well, it doesn't cost a thing, and anyway it's not 
really closed, look it even has an API!


And what works for the individual also works for large organisations - 
whole universities training their geography students in ESRI software 
because ESRI made this great offer where the academic license was almost 
free and comes with premium support - when one could argue that this 
provides them quite a bit of corporate control over education.


What you lament for countries in Africa has happended to cities in 
Germany in very similar fashion - the city had their own geodata but no 
printed street map; a publishing house came along and offered to print 
free street maps for everyone if they get an exclusive license to using 
the data in print; the city said great, win-win situation and signed 
the contract; now they're stuck with second-rate printed maps and don't 
even control their own resources.


It happens all over the world, all the time - commercial entities making 
offers that are too good to refuse, just sign away a tiny little part of 
your sovereignty here and we'll give you all this for free. (Thing 
exploration of natural resources!) I, too, find a lot to be criticised 
here, but I think it is unfair to single out Google.



What bothers me so much is how they have blatantly copied
OpenStreetMap. First their MapMaker product is directly modelled on
OSM, but with a restrictive data license, where you can not use the
data as you see fit. Second, they have stolen the idea of Mapping
Parties, a unique concept and name we developed. Third, they’re even
copying initiatives to map impoverished informal settlements, like
Map Kibera.


I think blatantly copy and steal are not the right words to describe 
the situation. Could we have patented the ideas of OSM and of mapping 
parties if we had wanted to? I doubt it. It is ok for others to be 
inspired by the success of OSM - just as we have been inspired by what 
Google offers their users in online mapping.


I think we have to admit that free and open is a luxury thing. First 
you want a working computer, and then you can think about whether it's 
free and open. If Microsoft offers to install a Windows PC in every 
school in your impoverished city, you will not say no just because it's 
a proprietary operating system.


And while some might bash Microsoft for exploiting the weakness of the 
other side in this situation, I don't think that's fair - they make an 
offer and the other side is free to accept or reject.


Which brings us back to Google offering, as you say free maps to 
impoverished countries in return for, I assume, commercial exploitation 
rights to the geodata that has been collected. Yes, you could say 
they're exploiting the weakness of the other side - but then

Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden 80n

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 6:08 AM, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.com wrote:
 So my understanding now, from Francis' comment, is that CC-By-SA and
 CC-By are not compatible (you can't accept the CTs if you've
 contributed data obtained under those licenses, without infringing
 those licenses?), but ODbL for example might be compatible with CT
 although it's not compaitble with the current OSM's license.  But it
 might be in the future.

Is ODbL licensed content compatible with the current CTs?

My understanding is that ODbL does not allow you to grant a
worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable licence
bla bla bla... to anyone.  So no ODbL licensed datasets can be
contributed to OSM.  None at all.  And that includes ODbL content that
came from OSM in the first place.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Grant Slater

On 15 April 2011 00:38, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote:
If data is tainted in a way that makes in incompatible with the currently
 used license then it will have to be removed in order not to put the project
 at risk (e.g. data copied from proprietary sources). This is independent of
 the license change.

 I assume that the currently used license means to the ODBL license now in
 use by contributors.  If  so how and to whom do I serve notice that even
 though I clicked on the accept button I'm not comfortable that all my edits
 before March 2011 contain only data is that is completely untainted so
 rather than put the OSM project at risk could they be removed.  I'm happy to
 get out my GPS and notepad and ensure anything I add from today forward will
 meet the new criteria.


Hi John,

What is your OSM account name? Where did the imported data come from:
government source, printed map, something else?

Regards
 Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden David Groom

- Original Message - 
From: Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org

To: David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

Hi,

David Murn wrote:

What about if you become aware that once youve got someone, who has
agreed and who has contributed tainted data?  Will you (or someone else
wielding the magical OSMF+3 wand) reverse it?

If data is tainted in a way that makes in incompatible with the
currently used license then it will have to be removed in order not to
put the project at risk (e.g. data copied from proprietary sources).
This is independent of the license change.

If data is tainted in a way that makes it compatible with the
currently used license, but it is likely that the data will have to be
removed should OSM ever change to a different license under the CT 2/3
of active mappers clause, then things are difficult - it would
certainly be better in the long run to replace such data by data that is
fully compliant, and I would estimate tools to be developed that would
aim to gradually phase out such limited-release data and make sure such
data is not used to build upon if it can be avoided. But I don't think
it would be removed outright - I guess the decision will be delayed
until such time as anyone actually proposes changing the license again.

There's also a third kind of tainted that sits in the middle of these
two, namely data that has e.g. been released CC-BY. Such data looks
compatible at first, but closer inspection (see current discussion on
legal-talk) reveals that CC-BY explicitly forbids sublicensing, and
sublicensing is what the new scheme is all about. So in that case we'd
have a legal outcome (data being distributed with attribution) but an
untidy process that took us there. I don't know if this is a minor
problem that can be ignored, or a showstopper.

There's also a fourth kind of tainted data.  Data that might be compatible 
with CC-BY-SA, and might be compatible with ODbL, but is incompatible with 
the CT's.

In which case the question becomes, if someone who has accepted the CT's, 
is in breach of the CT's  because some data they have contributed in the 
past is incompatible with the CT's, will all their data be removed and their 
user account blocked?

Or is OSM happy to allow those people who are in breach of the CT's to 
continue to contribute to the project, in which case why bother having the 
CT's in the first place?

David

Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09 E008°23'33

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Re: [OSM-talk] CC-BY-SA still available?

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 01:38:30 +0200
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 So I chose a slightly humorous response, treating Anthony as if he 
 really were an innocent newbie.
 
 I didn't expect that I would have to explain the humour, but I guess
 I should have known better.

Humour is quite language specific.
I don't expect you to get Strine jokes.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 16:49:20 +0200
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Hi,
 
 Eric Marsden wrote:
It is not clear to me, from your message or from what I have read
  on the wiki, whether choosing Decline is a irreversible decision,
  or whether one would still be able later to accept the licence + CT.
 
 Decline is reversible. Accept isn't. Once we've got you, we'll
 never let go.
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 

This is not a simplistic legal question at all.
Where I am, right now, a contract has to have certain features to be
valid. It must be agreed to by both parties, and there shall not be
coercion, and it must not be unconscionable.
So a shrink-wrap or click-through licence is not enforceable.
We have already one example of a person who has mistakenly agreed, and
who has notified OSMF, and will have to be released from the contract.
So instead of claiming that every yes is permanent, protocols will
need to be made for these circumstances.
As OSMF has delved into contract law with the ODbL, the various
contract laws of hundreds of nations worldwide will have to be
considered. Hopefully they fall into major groupings to make your task
easier.

Liz

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday


Hi,

On 04/15/2011 10:13 AM, David Groom wrote:

There's also a third kind of tainted that sits in the middle of these
two, namely data that has e.g. been released CC-BY. Such data looks
compatible at first, but closer inspection (see current discussion on
legal-talk) reveals that CC-BY explicitly forbids sublicensing, and
sublicensing is what the new scheme is all about. So in that case we'd
have a legal outcome (data being distributed with attribution) but an
untidy process that took us there. I don't know if this is a minor
problem that can be ignored, or a showstopper.



There's also a fourth kind of tainted data. Data that might be
compatible with CC-BY-SA, and might be compatible with ODbL, but is
incompatible with the CT's.


It would be very hard to construct something of that kind. The most 
common thing is certainly going to be the above third case, where you 
have the right to distribute data under CC-BY-SA or maybe even ODbL or 
maybe you even have the right to distribute it under any license with a 
BY component, but you do not have the right to authorize a third party 
(OSMF) to perform such distribution.


For data of your fourth kind you would have to have a data provider 
who says you can use my data under CC-BY-SA or ODbL, and you have the 
right to sublicense not only under these licenses, but you also under 
these licenses plus the additional privilege of further sublicensing. 
I'm not aware of such a situation even existing.



In which case the question becomes, if someone who has accepted the
CT's, is in breach of the CT's because some data they have contributed
in the past is incompatible with the CT's, will all their data be
removed and their user account blocked?


The best was to deal with such situations is to identify the affected 
data and remove only that. Ideally, users should, when agreeing to the 
CT, notify OSMF of those past contributions that are not CT compatible.


The idea of accepting selected individual contributions without CT 
agreement - i.e. contributions which are CC-BY-SA or ODbL only with 
sublicensing option - has been floated over half a year ago, and this 
is a real possibility for cases where data loss would be too great 
otherwise. This would essentially defer data loss - the loss would not 
happen right away but at some later time if the license is changed 
again. This will always have to be a case-by-case decision by OSMF 
because it has the potential to cause trouble in the future and puts 
holes in the shiny new license regime we're hoping to have.



Or is OSM happy to allow those people who are in breach of the CT's to
continue to contribute to the project, in which case why bother having
the CT's in the first place?


As I said, there might be *selected* *individual* cases where we say oh 
well, we'll rather have your data now and accept that we have to remove 
it if we should ever change the license again, than not have your data 
at all. But just because we say so in one or two cases, doesn't mean we 
abandon the idea of a simplified later license change altogether.


Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war, Mitrovica

On Mon, 11 Apr 2011 04:08:56 -0700 (PDT)
ThomasB toba0...@yahoo.de wrote:

 Mitrovica was deleted by uboot
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/7348595
 
 could you please stop publicly blaming others for mistakes that you
 personally has made? 
 ubot has deleted 15 ways and add some 60. The other edits were DupNode
 fixes. 
 
 You personally have deleted the streets there
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/98163924/history
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/98171028/history
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/96950414/history
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/96577541/history
 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/97831272/history
 
 do you want me to continue?
 

There is a logic error here. How does removing duplicates remove an
entire city of streets?
Mike has reimported the streets overnight, using the original data, and
they are slowly being rendered.

The most polite thing that I think may have happened is for two
duplicate node removers to have decided to attack the area at once. 
The result was devastation of the map in that area.

I don't like 'duplicate node removing' scripts or bots. Duplicate nodes
may well have a function, or may not be duplicate at all.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war, Mitrovica


Hi,

On 04/15/2011 01:14 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:

I don't like 'duplicate node removing' scripts or bots. Duplicate nodes
may well have a function, or may not be duplicate at all.


+1. Anyone who plans to indiscriminately fix duplicate nodes without 
actually looking at the situation (e.g. anyone running a bot removing 
such nodes) *must* discuss their planned actions with the affected 
community beforehand.


Bye
Frederik


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Re: [OSM-talk] Edit war, Mitrovica

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Vincent Pottier


Le 15/04/2011 13:24, Frederik Ramm a écrit :

Hi,

On 04/15/2011 01:14 PM, Elizabeth Dodd wrote:

I don't like 'duplicate node removing' scripts or bots. Duplicate nodes
may well have a function, or may not be duplicate at all.


+1. Anyone who plans to indiscriminately fix duplicate nodes without 
actually looking at the situation (e.g. anyone running a bot removing 
such nodes) *must* discuss their planned actions with the affected 
community beforehand.


Bye
Frederik

+1 !
I fear for the survey marks in France !
--
FrViPofm

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden David Groom

- Original Message - 
From: Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org

To: talk@openstreetmap.org
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

Hi,

On 04/15/2011 10:13 AM, David Groom wrote:

There's also a third kind of tainted that sits in the middle of these
two, namely data that has e.g. been released CC-BY. Such data looks
compatible at first, but closer inspection (see current discussion on
legal-talk) reveals that CC-BY explicitly forbids sublicensing, and
sublicensing is what the new scheme is all about. So in that case we'd
have a legal outcome (data being distributed with attribution) but an
untidy process that took us there. I don't know if this is a minor
problem that can be ignored, or a showstopper.

There's also a fourth kind of tainted data. Data that might be
compatible with CC-BY-SA, and might be compatible with ODbL, but is
incompatible with the CT's.

It would be very hard to construct something of that kind. The most common 
thing is certainly going to be the above third case, where you have the 
right to distribute data under CC-BY-SA or maybe even ODbL or maybe you 
even have the right to distribute it under any license with a BY 
component, but you do not have the right to authorize a third party (OSMF) 
to perform such distribution.

For data of your fourth kind you would have to have a data provider who 
says you can use my data under CC-BY-SA or ODbL, and you have the right 
to sublicense not only under these licenses, but you also under these 
licenses plus the additional privilege of further sublicensing. I'm not 
aware of such a situation even existing.

Surely all you need is a data provider who says  you can use my data under 
CC-BY-SA or ODbL but you dont have the right to grant a worldwide, 
royalty-free, non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable licence to do any act 
that is restricted by copyright , in respect of my data

In which case the question becomes, if someone who has accepted the
CT's, is in breach of the CT's because some data they have contributed
in the past is incompatible with the CT's, will all their data be
removed and their user account blocked?

The best was to deal with such situations is to identify the affected data 
and remove only that. Ideally, users should, when agreeing to the CT, 
notify OSMF of those past contributions that are not CT compatible.

So your ideal is that people should agree to the CT's even if they know 
that they are in breach of the CT's!

That's not my idea of ideal, but I guess we will have to agree to differ 
on this point, and wait to see what the official OSM position is on dealing 
with people who are in breach of the CT's

David

The idea of accepting selected individual contributions without CT 
agreement - i.e. contributions which are CC-BY-SA or ODbL only with 
sublicensing option - has been floated over half a year ago, and this is 
a real possibility for cases where data loss would be too great otherwise. 
This would essentially defer data loss - the loss would not happen right 
away but at some later time if the license is changed again. This will 
always have to be a case-by-case decision by OSMF because it has the 
potential to cause trouble in the future and puts holes in the shiny new 
license regime we're hoping to have.

Or is OSM happy to allow those people who are in breach of the CT's to
continue to contribute to the project, in which case why bother having
the CT's in the first place?

As I said, there might be *selected* *individual* cases where we say oh 
well, we'll rather have your data now and accept that we have to remove it 
if we should ever change the license again, than not have your data at 
all. But just because we say so in one or two cases, doesn't mean we 
abandon the idea of a simplified later license change altogether.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden john whelan

Johnwhelan is the account name.  Unfortunately I have made a fair number of
edits.  The concern is I'm not comfortable that all of these meet the new
standard but I'm unsure which ones do and which don't.  I'm happy to reenter
data  following the new guidelines.  I'm not happy to have some one else say
don't worry about it.

Thanks John

On 15 April 2011 03:55, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote:

 On 15 April 2011 00:38, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote:
 If data is tainted in a way that makes in incompatible with the
 currently
  used license then it will have to be removed in order not to put the
 project
  at risk (e.g. data copied from proprietary sources). This is independent
 of
  the license change.
 
  I assume that the currently used license means to the ODBL license now in
  use by contributors.  If  so how and to whom do I serve notice that even
  though I clicked on the accept button I'm not comfortable that all my
 edits
  before March 2011 contain only data is that is completely untainted so
  rather than put the OSM project at risk could they be removed.  I'm happy
 to
  get out my GPS and notepad and ensure anything I add from today forward
 will
  meet the new criteria.
 

 Hi John,

 What is your OSM account name? Where did the imported data come from:
 government source, printed map, something else?

 Regards
  Grant

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Grant Slater

On 15 April 2011 13:28, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote:
 Johnwhelan is the account name.  Unfortunately I have made a fair number of
 edits.  The concern is I'm not comfortable that all of these meet the new
 standard but I'm unsure which ones do and which don't.  I'm happy to reenter
 data  following the new guidelines.  I'm not happy to have some one else say
 don't worry about it.


Thanks for that. What is the answer to my second question? Where do
the potentially problem contributions come from? Email me off list if
you must.

Regards
 Grant


 Thanks John

 On 15 April 2011 03:55, Grant Slater openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote:

 On 15 April 2011 00:38, john whelan jwhelan0...@gmail.com wrote:
 If data is tainted in a way that makes in incompatible with the
  currently
  used license then it will have to be removed in order not to put the
  project
  at risk (e.g. data copied from proprietary sources). This is
  independent of
  the license change.
 
  I assume that the currently used license means to the ODBL license now
  in
  use by contributors.  If  so how and to whom do I serve notice that even
  though I clicked on the accept button I'm not comfortable that all my
  edits
  before March 2011 contain only data is that is completely untainted so
  rather than put the OSM project at risk could they be removed.  I'm
  happy to
  get out my GPS and notepad and ensure anything I add from today forward
  will
  meet the new criteria.
 

 Hi John,

 What is your OSM account name? Where did the imported data come from:
 government source, printed map, something else?

 Regards
  Grant



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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Alex Ruddick

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 5:10 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Hi,

 Do you expect any positive outcome from this, or is it for moral reasons
 that you choose this course of action?  There are regions in OSM where a
 visible no vote will lead to your data being re-surveyed and replaced by
 other contributors rather quickly. I can only hope that this is not the case
 in your area because otherwise what you plan to do will yield the worst
 possible outcome - others duplicating the efforts you have put in (instead
 of using their time for something more productive), and you being miffed
 because your contributions have been removed before you had the chance to
 redecide.


I hope to delay the process as long as possible in the interest of another
plan being implemented.  My two hopes are (1) remaining with the current
license until CC4 fixes things.  (2) an ODbL fork instead of a CC one.  My
data won't be resurveyed, but that doesn't change my view anyway.  Please
note I ultimately plan to stay with the project under the new terms!


 There are regions in OSM where a visible no vote will lead to your data
 being re-surveyed and replaced by other contributors rather quickly. I can
 only hope that this is not the case in your area because otherwise what you
 plan to do will yield the worst possible outcome - others duplicating the
 efforts you have put in (instead of using their time for something more
 productive), and you being miffed because your contributions have been
 removed before you had the chance to redecide.


  My contributions aren't as numerous as his http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?NE2,
 but if removed they would set my area back a half-decade.


 How so, if it has only taken you three years ;)?


It's much more lossy to go backwards, since my edits are intertwined with
others.  You know as well as I do that reverting is a messy process, and
will lose more than I originally put in.  I said a half-decade because I was
thinking TIGER started in 2006, so I stand corrected on that.


  If NEII's (and others) are removed, we can add the United States to
 Australia as 'countries the OSMF is willing to sacrifice.'


 It's a hard language to use.


Avoiding saying difficult things doesn't mean they're not happening.
Actions speak too.


 We don't want to lose any contributors, and we don't want to lose any data
 either. I don't want to compare OSM to a hill of mindless ants each of whom
 just execute their genetic programming; I believe that OSM works precisely
 because we're all individuals and contribute our own ideas, our style, our
 quirks. Every contributor is uniqe and (with very, very little exceptions)
 every contributor adds something valuable to OSM. Still, in the grand scheme
 of things, no single contributor is irreplaceable. Rip something out (and
 shed a couple tears about the love that went into it and is now lost to OSM)
 - it will grow back in time, and bring with it new people, a new community
 rallied to the cause.

 You are perfectly correct here overall, but I see one caveat.  The
*magnitude* of the time it will take OSM to 'grow back' is rather
significant in my case.  (i.e. the US).  The community here has just barely
gotten off the ground, and I fear the damage caused by mass deletion will be
enough to kill it.  I see a rather strong parallel to the US nuclear
industry: it had just about recovered from TMI but is now set back further
decades because of Fukushima.


 We're not sacrificing countries. We saw that we have built our project on
 (legal) sand, and we're moving to rectify the situation. The patient may
 lose some tissue about this but he will live, and after the wounds have
 healed, will be healthier than before.

 I'm talking all flowery because this is the talk list. If you want hard
 facts, go to legal-talk.

 I read legal-talk occasionally, and have not been convinced that the
illness is more dangerous than the medicine.


Regards,
Alex
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[OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines


this occurred to me while surveying speed limits in a somewhat rural
part of the US.

are any of the routing engines looking at the surface tag as part of
their decision making?

i ask this because in NY, the default speed limit in rural areas is 55
on all roads. there are numerous unpaved roads (dirt, gravel) which
do not have posted speed limits, but where driving at 55 is not
reasonable unless you're a rally driver and the road is closed.

i want to tag these accurately, and am doing so, but i should think
that the routing engines ought to avoid, when possible, this combination
or others like it:

highway=unclassified
name=Mead Road
maxspeed=55 mph
surface=dirt

richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Nic Roets

Hello Richard,

Gosmore looks at maxspeed and tracktype.

I did not use surface, because I am under the impression that it is
possible to drive fast on properly maintained dirt roads in dryer
regions.

Regards,
Nic

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 this occurred to me while surveying speed limits in a somewhat rural
 part of the US.

 are any of the routing engines looking at the surface tag as part of
 their decision making?

 i ask this because in NY, the default speed limit in rural areas is 55
 on all roads. there are numerous unpaved roads (dirt, gravel) which
 do not have posted speed limits, but where driving at 55 is not
 reasonable unless you're a rally driver and the road is closed.

 i want to tag these accurately, and am doing so, but i should think
 that the routing engines ought to avoid, when possible, this combination
 or others like it:

 highway=unclassified
 name=Mead Road
 maxspeed=55 mph
 surface=dirt

 richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines

2011/4/15 Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net:
 i ask this because in NY, the default speed limit in rural areas is 55
 on all roads.
 highway=unclassified
 name=Mead Road
 maxspeed=55 mph
 surface=dirt


I suggest you also add source:maxspeed=US:NY:rural or sth. similar to
the roads with no explicit maxspeed sign.
Have a look here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines


On 4/15/11 10:53 AM, Nic Roets wrote:

Hello Richard,

Gosmore looks at maxspeed and tracktype.

I did not use surface, because I am under the impression that it is
possible to drive fast on properly maintained dirt roads in dryer
regions.

interesting. i haven't been setting tracktype because these are named
roads with a mixture of residences, farms, or other businesses along
them and so end up with highway=unclassified instead of track

but setting tracktype in this case seems a reasonable way to signal
the road condition. the roads i'm looking at generally fall under
grade2 or grade3 standards.

richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Kai Krueger

Frederik Ramm wrote:

It would be very hard to construct something of that kind. The most
common thing is certainly going to be the above third case, where you
have the right to distribute data under CC-BY-SA or maybe even ODbL or
maybe you even have the right to distribute it under any license with a
BY component, but you do not have the right to authorize a third party
(OSMF) to perform such distribution.

For data of your fourth kind you would have to have a data provider
who says you can use my data under CC-BY-SA or ODbL, and you have the
right to sublicense not only under these licenses, but you also under
these licenses plus the additional privilege of further sublicensing.
I'm not aware of such a situation even existing.

Looking at the imports catalogue (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue ), there seem to be a
number of imports that have an explicit licensing of CC-BY-SA or ODbL and
thus sound like they fall into that category (e.g. plan.at or Afghanistan
Roads). So they would be compatible with the OSM license, but not the CT.

In addition, it is imho not clear that not some of the many imports listed
as Attribution licensed wouldn't fall into this category, too (rather than
in category 3 as CC-BY).

I thought that the new CTs were supposed to fix this issue by only
requiring people to give the full rights they them selves own and then
vouch for that the data is also compatible with the current licensing. But
it sounds like that clause was dropped again in CTs 1.2.4? (At least that is
how I understood the recent discussion on legal-talk). So we are back to
nothing is compatible with the CTs other than a PD (like) license?

--
View this message in context:
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/OpenStreetMap-License-Change-Phase-3-begins-Sunday-tp6272616p6276776.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines


On 4/15/11 11:30 AM, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2011/4/15 Richard Weltyrwe...@averillpark.net:

i ask this because in NY, the default speed limit in rural areas is 55
on all roads.
highway=unclassified
name=Mead Road
maxspeed=55 mph
surface=dirt


I suggest you also add source:maxspeed=US:NY:rural or sth. similar to
the roads with no explicit maxspeed sign.
Have a look here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:source:maxspeed

thanks. there are a bunch of interesting things on that page.

richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] CC-BY-SA still available?

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 He knows perfectly well, because he has been told a thousand
 times, that one of the countries where CC-BY-SA doesn't work for our data is
 his country of residence, the USA.

Being told something is not equivalent to knowing it.  There is
absolutely no evidence that CC isn't recognised for map data in the
United States.

 He has gone on record, multiple times,
 saying that he likes the CC-BY-SA precisely because he belives that it
 doesn't work.

I'm not sure what you mean by the intentionally ambiguous phrase
doesn't work.  CC-BY-SA works exactly as intended.  In fact, the
license even explicitly states its intent:  Nothing in this License
is intended to reduce, limit, or restrict any uses free from copyright
or rights arising from limitations or exceptions that are provided for
in connection with the copyright protection under copyright law or
other applicable laws.

In any case, my question was what jurisdiction does not recognize CC
for map data.

 I think my message was entirely in order. Even a newbie could be expected to
 read at least a few articles of background on our Wiki before engaging in a
 discussion. Anyone reading e.g.
 http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/License/Why_CC_BY-SA_is_Unsuitable would
 immediately be informed that the USA is one of the countries in which
 CC-BY-SA won't work for our data.

Again with the intentionally ambiguous phrase won't work.  And
again, being told something is not equivalent to knowing it.

 As you probably know, Anthony's account on OSM has been terminated because
 he openly boasted about violating copyright.

That is completely untrue.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Grant Slater
openstreet...@firefishy.com wrote:
 The revert script used to remove Anthony's edits (which were traced
 from Google) was a basic revert script which only used API methods.
 There were also mistakes made like reverting the items anthony had
 deleted only after most of the cleanup/improvement work had already
 been done. Live an learn.

Except that you haven't learned.  By reinstating edits which I had
created and then later deleted, you have failed to remove all my
contributions (and created a bigger mess).

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 6:55 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:
 Hi,

 David Murn wrote:

 Out of interest Grant, what other large-scale open source projects have
 changed their licence the way that OSM has?  In fact, changed their
 licence full-stop..?

 Wikipedia went from GFDL to CC-BY-SA.

Wikipedia went from GFDL to a GFDL/CC-BY-SA dual license - with the
help of the FSF.

If OSMF wanted to go from CC-BY-SA to a CC-BY-SA/ODbL dual license,
that would greatly simplify things.

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Re: [OSM-talk] CC-BY-SA still available?

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Anthony o...@inbox.org wrote:
 CC-BY-SA works exactly as intended.  In fact, the
 license even explicitly states its intent:  Nothing in this License
 is intended to reduce, limit, or restrict any uses free from copyright
 or rights arising from limitations or exceptions that are provided for
 in connection with the copyright protection under copyright law or
 other applicable laws.

This is a fundamental principle of free licenses.  Any license which
does not contain such a provision, is not a free license.

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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden john

You are assuming that all dirt roads will be well-maintained, and that all dirt 
roads are in dry regions.  Both assumptions are false.  Most of the eastern 
half of the USA, and the Pacific Northwest of the USA, get plenty of rainfall, 
and even the dryer regions get some rainfall, some of it heavy enough to erode 
an unpaved roadway.

---Original Email---
Subject :Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines
From  :mailto:nro...@gmail.com
Date  :Fri Apr 15 09:53:24 America/Chicago 2011


Hello Richard,

Gosmore looks at maxspeed and tracktype.

I did not use surface, because I am under the impression that it is
possible to drive fast on properly maintained dirt roads in dryer
regions.

Regards,
Nic

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 4:36 PM, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 this occurred to me while surveying speed limits in a somewhat rural
 part of the US.

 are any of the routing engines looking at the surface tag as part of
 their decision making?

 i ask this because in NY, the default speed limit in rural areas is 55
 on all roads. there are numerous unpaved roads (dirt, gravel) which
 do not have posted speed limits, but where driving at 55 is not
 reasonable unless you're a rally driver and the road is closed.

 i want to tag these accurately, and am doing so, but i should think
 that the routing engines ought to avoid, when possible, this combination
 or others like it:

 highway=unclassified
 name=Mead Road
 maxspeed=55 mph
 surface=dirt

 richard


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-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all. -- Hypatia of Alexandria
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday


Hi,

On 04/15/2011 05:55 PM, Kai Krueger wrote:

I thought that the new CTs were supposed to fix this issue


[...]

I have answered on legal-talk.

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Andreas Perstinger


On 2011-04-14 21:18, Alex Ruddick wrote:

If NEII's (and others) are removed, we can add the United States to
Australia as 'countries the OSMF is willing to sacrifice.'


I'm not afraid that NEII's contributions are lost because he states on 
his user page: All of my edits are released into the public domain.

(http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/NE2)

Bye, Andreas

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 20:36:34 +0200
Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:

 Hi,
 
 On 04/15/2011 05:55 PM, Kai Krueger wrote:
  I thought that the new CTs were supposed to fix this issue
 
 [...]
 
 I have answered on legal-talk.
 
 Bye
 Frederik
 

Frederick, it has occurred to me that if you are unhappy with what is
discussed on talk, you could unsubscribe.


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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines

On Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:36:55 -0400
Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:

 this occurred to me while surveying speed limits in a somewhat rural
 part of the US.
 
 are any of the routing engines looking at the surface tag as part of
 their decision making?
 
 i ask this because in NY, the default speed limit in rural areas is 55
 on all roads. there are numerous unpaved roads (dirt, gravel) which
 do not have posted speed limits, but where driving at 55 is not
 reasonable unless you're a rally driver and the road is closed.
 
 i want to tag these accurately, and am doing so, but i should think
 that the routing engines ought to avoid, when possible, this
 combination or others like it:
 
 highway=unclassified
 name=Mead Road
 maxspeed=55 mph
 surface=dirt
 
 richard
 
Navit considers the highway type and the surface type. Exactly what
speed you expect to do for those parameters is user configurable in a config 
file. 

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Alan Mintz


At 2011-04-12 11:56, Michael Collinson wrote:
This is to let you know the license
change process is moving to Phase 3 [1] very shortly.
What exactly will be done with the existing data, and when? Understanding
what happens to objects and their parents/siblings/children based on the
license acceptance of the original creator/intermediate editors/last
editor is key to deciding whether I should accept or decline.

--
Alan Mintz alan_mintz+...@earthlink.net



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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Mike Dupont

What worries me here is that there are all these versions of the document,
the licenses etc. How are you going to deal with different people agreeing
to different contracts at different times?

mike

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 7:08 AM, andrzej zaborowski balr...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 14 April 2011 21:06, David Groom revi...@pacific-rim.net wrote:
  - Original Message - From: andrzej zaborowski 
 balr...@gmail.com
  Under the Contributor Terms 1.2.4 I believe it will be the
  OpenStreetMap Foundation's responsibility to remove such data before
  switching the license, you will not be liable.  Until then the data
  will only be distributed under CC-By-SA and you can accept these new
  Contributor Terms by which you would be granting OSMF only the rights
  which you are able to grant.
 
  I'm not sure if my interpretation is correct and if it's not then I
  would like to know the correct interpretation to be able to give an
  answer to people asking about this in non-English forums.
 
  see this thread (in particular Fracis Davey's comments) on the legal talk
  mailing list
 
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2011-April/005915.html

 So my understanding now, from Francis' comment, is that CC-By-SA and
 CC-By are not compatible (you can't accept the CTs if you've
 contributed data obtained under those licenses, without infringing
 those licenses?), but ODbL for example might be compatible with CT
 although it's not compaitble with the current OSM's license.  But it
 might be in the future.

 Is that correct?  Is that also the intent of the CTs 1.2.4?  I think
 it would be good to have a human readable form of this document
 written by its authors.

 I haven't read the CC-By-SA license code in this context but I'm
 reading in Francis' response that there's something in it that makes
 it not compatible.

 Cheers

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Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova and Albania flossk.org
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[OSM-talk] Fwd: Fwd: Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Steve Coast

oops think I sent this to talk-IT too...

 Original Message 
Subject: 	[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Hoping you can point me in the right 
direction.

Date:   Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:58:25 -0700
From:   Steve Coast st...@asklater.com
To: talk@openstreetmap.org

 Original Message 
Subject:Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.
Date:   Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:00:51 +1000
From:   R Lynch r.ly...@ddsnsw.com.au
To: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com

Sorry yes thank you

Sent from my iPhone

On 12/04/2011, at 8:10 AM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com 
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:

you mailed the OSMF board which isn't set up or designed to help with 
what you want, we have mailing lists with people who can help you 
though, so I'm offering to connect you to them

On 4/11/2011 3:11 PM, R Lynch wrote:

Steve,

Sorry im lost, What do you mean mailing list?

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

On 12/04/2011, at 7:40 AM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com 
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:

Robert

Can I forward this to our mailing lists?

Steve

On 4/10/2011 7:44 PM, Robert Lynch wrote:

Hi Steve,

My name is Robert Lynch and I am the owner of a few small transport 
companies in Australia. Over the past 12 months I have been 
building a new transport, logistics and recruitment software to 
Launch in Australia. As part of this software we are looking for 
routing solutions and direct guidance for the drivers and a few 
other unique developments for this industry.

Currently there is nothing like this in the market place and can be 
quickly replicated for other areas around the world.

What i would like to do is speak with someone to see how we can 
partner up through a Joint venture or any other means.

I hope to hear from you soon

*_Robert F. Lynch_*

*Head office:   1300 400 450*

*Direct line:  (02) 8093-1207*

*Fax:(02) 8093-1243*

*Mobile:0403 753 371*

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement


Alan,

On 04/15/2011 11:01 PM, Alan Mintz wrote:

What exactly will be done with the existing data, and when?
Understanding what happens to objects and their
parents/siblings/children based on the license acceptance of the
original creator/intermediate editors/last editor is key to deciding
whether I should accept or decline.


I don't think this is cast in stone yet, and it is unlikely to be cast 
in stone any time soon. In my opinion (and I am not part of OSMF board 
or LWG), it is very likely that the process will be a fuzzy one, where 
easy cases are decided automatically and everything else by the community.


Personally I do not expect any rules about this to be devised until long 
after we've entered phase 4. If you are interested in the process, I 
believe there are lots of opportunities to participate.


Be reminded that you are asked to agree to a contract with OSMF (the 
CT); you are not asked whether or not you like the way OSMF goes about 
implementing that contract. It is important to separate these two. Even 
if there already *were* plans on how exactly to implement things, these 
plans would *not* become part of the contract; they could be changed the 
minute after you have agreed to the CT.


Also, it is not unlikely that the OSMF board overseeing the license 
changeover in phase 5 will be quite different from the board we have now 
(as there will be elections at SOTM).


Thus it doesn't make any sense to say that you want to base your 
agreement or non-agreement to the CT on whatever plans there may or may 
not be for dealing with objects that have been touched by many people.


Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Ian Dees

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote:


 Thus it doesn't make any sense to say that you want to base your agreement
 or non-agreement to the CT on whatever plans there may or may not be for
 dealing with objects that have been touched by many people.


How else does the community vote on this transition then? I've asked about
this several times and haven't heard a response. Perhaps someone thinks I'm
trolling? Quite the opposite: I've asked people privately specifically to
keep trolls from exploiting my question and starting a flamewar. (Mostly
because I feel responsible for being the first person to ask such a question
and causing the subsequent destruction of the talk@ mailing list:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2009-December/045105.html)

At what point was the entire (active) OSM community asked if they wanted to
relicense their data? If they haven't (I certainly wasn't) then when will
we? Is this accept/decline that vote? If so, how do I vote no? How do I vote
yes but withhold the option of changing my vote when I see the final
license?
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Dermot McNally

On 15 April 2011 23:21, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:

 At what point was the entire (active) OSM community asked if they wanted to
 relicense their data? If they haven't (I certainly wasn't) then when will
 we? Is this accept/decline that vote? If so, how do I vote no? How do I vote
 yes but withhold the option of changing my vote when I see the final
 license?

Well, I'm not trolling either, though this probably isn't the answer
you were looking for. Still, it's one way of breaking what seems to be
a deadlock:

Ian, could I ask you to consider agreeing to license your work to date
under ODbL? And in addition, to agree to the new CTs, which seem to me
to contain important provisions to avoid orphaning our map data if for
some reason we are not around to agree to some later legally
significant point that a significant majority of the Community active
at that time agrees is necessary?

So now that you've been asked, the discussion can turn in the IMHO
more productive direction of dealing with actual concerns with the
change rather than the protocol.

Dermot

-- 
--
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Ian Dees

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Dermot McNally derm...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 15 April 2011 23:21, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:

  At what point was the entire (active) OSM community asked if they wanted
 to
  relicense their data? If they haven't (I certainly wasn't) then when will
  we? Is this accept/decline that vote? If so, how do I vote no? How do I
 vote
  yes but withhold the option of changing my vote when I see the final
  license?

 Well, I'm not trolling either, though this probably isn't the answer
 you were looking for. Still, it's one way of breaking what seems to be
 a deadlock:


Thanks for asking me (if this were a vote my answer would be No, but in
the interest of moving on from this nonsense and keeping data flowing I'll
eventually say Yes), but the important part of my question was everyone
else -- the community of OpenStreetMap. When were *they* asked?
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Dermot McNally

On 16 April 2011 00:07, Ian Dees ian.d...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks for asking me (if this were a vote my answer would be No, but in
 the interest of moving on from this nonsense and keeping data flowing I'll
 eventually say Yes), but the important part of my question was everyone
 else -- the community of OpenStreetMap. When were *they* asked?

FWIW I would have favoured earlier specific requests for a vote, but
it's basically been an impossible position for the LWG from what I can
see as an outsider. On the one hand, everybody wants to feel consulted
about the change. On the other, plenty of people have complained
throughout the process about being offered a half-baked solution.
Turns out this stuff is complicated.

I'm not the first person to say so on the lists, but it seems to bear
repeating - the process has not been a secret, the key details of what
problem the change attempts to solve have been documented for a long
time now and absolutely anybody with a thirst for knowledge on the
matter has had many resources at his or her disposal. When I first
became aware of the documentation and read it, I certainly felt
consulted, and very soon after it became possible to indicate
approval, it was clear to me both that the promoters of the change
wished me to do so (at that point I felt asked) and how I might go
about doing so.

As of Sunday, we are now aware, those not yet to vote yes are to
asked to vote yes or no. It remains unclear whether an OSMF message
is to be a part of this asking - I would tend to feel this would be a
good thing, as some mappers just wanna have fun^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H map,
and may well not know about this process at all.

Many mappers have had concerns and actual difficulties with some of
the consequences of the changes. Some of them have engaged positively
in the process to try and find an accommodation. Many... quite frankly
haven't. I started mapping with OSM in good faith and expecting good
faith from other mappers. So far I have only been disappointed by
those mappers who willfully vandalised the map or undermined it
through tainted data.

This licence change now gives every mapper the means of undermining
the map through withholding of their own data, once freely given and
now very likely a foundation of data created by other mappers, also in
good faith. I understand that many mappers feel they _can't_ relicense
some or all of their work, and that's a really tough situation. But
mappers who just plain _won't_ agree to leave their data in, even
though there is no legal obstacle to it, should strongly consider
whether they are being true to the community they claim to be a part
of.

Dermot

-- 
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ja ma oma ei leiagi üles

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden andrzej zaborowski

On 16 April 2011 01:29, Dermot McNally derm...@gmail.com wrote:
 This licence change now gives every mapper the means of undermining
 the map through withholding of their own data, once freely given and
 now very likely a foundation of data created by other mappers, also in
 good faith. I understand that many mappers feel they _can't_ relicense
 some or all of their work, and that's a really tough situation. But
 mappers who just plain _won't_ agree to leave their data in, even
 though there is no legal obstacle to it, should strongly consider
 whether they are being true to the community they claim to be a part
 of.

At this point it's only known that there's an unspecified non-zero
part of the community which wants OSM to switch license.  Not everyone
needs to be true to that part of the community just like not everyone
needs to be true to the part that wants OSM data in Public Domain or
the part that drinks coffee with milk etc.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 Pre-Announcement

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Kai Krueger

Dermot McNally wrote:

FWIW I would have favoured earlier specific requests for a vote, but
it's basically been an impossible position for the LWG from what I can
see as an outsider.

No, the vote part really isn't that difficult. Wikipedia managed to hold a
vote on their licensing change. In fact the Contributor terms states a
procedure to hold a vote for a licensing change. Just that LWG appears to
have decides to apply those rules only for a future license change and not
for the current one. (Which legally seems well within the current CTs)

It would still be perfectly possible to follow the rules that are specified
in the CT for a license change, for the current proposed change as well.

Dermot McNally wrote:

But mappers who just plain _won't_ agree to leave their data in, even
though there is no legal obstacle to it, should strongly consider
whether they are being true to the community they claim to be a part
of.

Until there is a clear vote of the community to determine what they want it
is impossible to say which side of the debate is true to the community. At
the moment, we simply don't know. And so it is unhelpful to accuse long time
OSM enthusiasts as not being true to the community because they disagree
with your opinion. Many of them have the community just as much at hart as
the proponents. They just disagree or are unsure on the effects this change
will have on it.

Kai

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Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden David Murn

On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 20:36 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 Hi,
 
 On 04/15/2011 05:55 PM, Kai Krueger wrote:
  I thought that the new CTs were supposed to fix this issue
 
 [...]
 
 I have answered on legal-talk.

We dont care if you answered on a podcast sent to the moon.  The
question was asked here, and if you believe that discussion should
belong on legal-talk, Ive got over 200 messages from the last 4 days
that disagree and believe the issue is of great enough importance to not
be hidden away.  As much as you might like feeling superior that you
read a legal list, most of us really couldnt give a toss, and simply
want answers to our questions.

If youre not prepared to answer them concisely (other than keeping on
pointing at a mailing list archive) then would you please kindly sit
down and STFU?  I dont think Im the only one getting sick of you fobbing
off tricky questions in the same generic way, if you dont know the
answer, dont say anything and leave it up to those who DO know the
answer.

David


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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap License Change Phase 3 begins Sunday

2011/4/16 David Murn da...@incanberra.com.au:
 On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 20:36 +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote:
 I have answered on legal-talk.
 that disagree and believe the issue is of great enough importance to not
 be hidden away.


it is not hidden away, and you don't even have to be subscribed to
legal talk to read it:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/


cheers,
Martin

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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines

On 16 April 2011 00:36, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 i ask this because in NY, the default speed limit in rural areas is 55
 on all roads. there are numerous unpaved roads (dirt, gravel) which
 do not have posted speed limits, but where driving at 55 is not
 reasonable unless you're a rally driver and the road is closed.

Pfft, I was taught to drive on gravel roads, and they can be perfectly
safe to drive on at 100km/hr in places, but you have to be familiar
with the stretch of road you're on and drive for the condition etc.

 i want to tag these accurately, and am doing so, but i should think
 that the routing engines ought to avoid, when possible, this combination
 or others like it:

 highway=unclassified
 name=Mead Road
 maxspeed=55 mph
 surface=dirt

Dirt isn't very useful information imho, in Australia dirt roads could
be made of gravel, black soil, red soil etc, and knowing the type of
dirt road is useful, gravel roads are often still usable after lots of
rain, but you definitely don't want to do black soil roads after heavy
rain.

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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines

On 16 April 2011 01:30, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:
 I suggest you also add source:maxspeed=US:NY:rural or sth. similar to
 the roads with no explicit maxspeed sign.

Well he said 55mph is the default maximum for unsigned roads, wouldn't
it be more useful for routing software to know that, than keep track
of a bunch of strings that may or may not be documented properly.

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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines


On 4/15/11 11:16 PM, John Smith wrote:

On 16 April 2011 00:36, Richard Weltyrwe...@averillpark.net  wrote:

i ask this because in NY, the default speed limit in rural areas is 55
on all roads. there are numerous unpaved roads (dirt, gravel) which
do not have posted speed limits, but where driving at 55 is not
reasonable unless you're a rally driver and the road is closed.

Pfft, I was taught to drive on gravel roads, and they can be perfectly
safe to drive on at 100km/hr in places, but you have to be familiar
with the stretch of road you're on and drive for the condition etc.


and you know, i have rally  racing experience, and 70 mph on dirt doesn't
scare me, but i'm not every driver and you haven't seen these roads.

what i'm after are parameters so that the routing engines present
rational results to drivers who aren't me. so why don't we focus on
the actual problem in front of us instead of posturing about our
driving skills.

richard


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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines

On 16 April 2011 13:25, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 what i'm after are parameters so that the routing engines present
 rational results to drivers who aren't me. so why don't we focus on
 the actual problem in front of us instead of posturing about our
 driving skills.

Well you seemed to have skipped my next comment about describing what
sort of dirt road they are.

As for describing conditions, you could describe sections of the road
as being corrugated or potholed etc... That sort of information is
useful even on tarred roads...

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Re: [OSM-talk] question for folks working on routing engines

On 16 April 2011 13:43, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:
 On 16 April 2011 13:25, Richard Welty rwe...@averillpark.net wrote:
 what i'm after are parameters so that the routing engines present
 rational results to drivers who aren't me. so why don't we focus on
 the actual problem in front of us instead of posturing about our
 driving skills.

 Well you seemed to have skipped my next comment about describing what
 sort of dirt road they are.

 As for describing conditions, you could describe sections of the road
 as being corrugated or potholed etc... That sort of information is
 useful even on tarred roads...


I actually wrote a comment to the talk-au list about having accurate
map data, and not just for navigation.

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2011-April/007874.html

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Veerse Meer

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Robert Elsenaar


LEnnard,

Ik voel mij niet in de positie om jouw noeste arbeid in twijfel te trekken. 
Ik was echter niet in de positie (op het werk) om in JOSm te kijken. Wel zag 
ik op de map dat het verkeerd was.

Bedankt voor het fiksen.
Was Tavernses dankbaar voor de reverts? ;-)

Groet
Robert



-Oorspronkelijk bericht- 
From: Lennard

Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:02 PM
To: talk-nl@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Veerse Meer

On 14-4-2011 22:29, Lennard wrote:


Die import is al van lang geleden, ergens vorig jaar. De huidige
drooglegging zal dus niets anders zijn dan een mapper aan het werk.


Zo, gefixt. De enige werkbare methode was het reverten van een berg
changesets van Tavernsenses. Het enige dat sneuvelde, zover ik kan zien,
zijn wat pieren op de Schutteplaat.

--
Lennard

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Re: [OSM-talk-nl] Veerse Meer

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Lennard


On 15-4-2011 21:58, Robert Elsenaar wrote:


Ik voel mij niet in de positie om jouw noeste arbeid in twijfel te
trekken. Ik was echter niet in de positie (op het werk) om in JOSm te
kijken. Wel zag ik op de map dat het verkeerd was.
Bedankt voor het fiksen.
Was Tavernses dankbaar voor de reverts? ;-)


Geen idee. Het was laat, ik heb geen contact opgenomen.

Het was echter een enorme zooi, met vlakken die opgeknipt waren, tags 
die verplaatst waren (water was opeens gras), het Veerse Meer zelf die 
geen aaneengesloten buitenste ring vormde, etc. Ook landvlakken langs 
het water waren op deze manier kapotgeknipt. Geknoei in Potlatch2. De 
edits (een dozijn changesets) waren klein, maar op deze manier wel 
destructief. Een quick revert was de effectiefste manier om het op te 
lossen.


--
Lennard

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[talk-au] Fw: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.

Someone local to this guy want to speak with him?

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:58:25 -0700
From: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com
To: t...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Hoping you can point me in the right
direction.

 Original Message 
Subject:Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.
Date:   Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:00:51 +1000
From:   R Lynch r.ly...@ddsnsw.com.au
To: Steve Coast st...@asklater.com

Sorry yes thank you

Sent from my iPhone

On 12/04/2011, at 8:10 AM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com 
mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:

 you mailed the OSMF board which isn't set up or designed to help with 
 what you want, we have mailing lists with people who can help you 
 though, so I'm offering to connect you to them

 On 4/11/2011 3:11 PM, R Lynch wrote:
 Steve,

 Sorry im lost, What do you mean mailing list?

 Robert

 Sent from my iPhone

 On 12/04/2011, at 7:40 AM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com 
 mailto:st...@asklater.com wrote:

 Robert

 Can I forward this to our mailing lists?

 Steve

 On 4/10/2011 7:44 PM, Robert Lynch wrote:

 Hi Steve,

 My name is Robert Lynch and I am the owner of a few small
 transport companies in Australia. Over the past 12 months I have
 been building a new transport, logistics and recruitment software
 to Launch in Australia. As part of this software we are looking
 for routing solutions and direct guidance for the drivers and a
 few other unique developments for this industry.

 Currently there is nothing like this in the market place and can
 be quickly replicated for other areas around the world.

 What i would like to do is speak with someone to see how we can 
 partner up through a Joint venture or any other means.

 I hope to hear from you soon

 *_Robert F. Lynch_*

 *Head office:   1300 400 450*

 *Direct line:  (02) 8093-1207*

 *Fax:(02) 8093-1243*

 *Mobile:0403 753 371*

 mime-attachment.png

 */PART OF THE DYNAMIC GROUP OF COMPANIES/*

 We now do Point-to-Point in Sydney:

 *www.dynamicexpress.com.au;* http://www.a-p-m.com.au/

 Formally All Purpose Messengers; Delivering Excellent since
 1954*/__/*

 This email and any attached files are confidential. They are 
 intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom 
 they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, 
 please notify the sender by return email, and delete the original.

 All outgoing emails and attached files are virus scanned, but we
 do not represent that this email and any attached files are free
 from computer viruses or other defects. Further, we do not accept
 any liability for any damage caused by this email or attachments

 mime-attachment.jpg mime-attachment.jpg mime-attachment.png 
 mime-attachment.jpg

 Original Message 

  Subject: 
  Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.

  Date: 
  Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:00:51 +1000

  From: 
  R Lynch r.ly...@ddsnsw.com.au

  To: 
  Steve Coast st...@asklater.com

Sorry yes thank you

  Sent from my iPhone

  On 12/04/2011, at 8:10 AM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com
  wrote:

   you mailed the OSMF board which isn't set up or designed to
help with what you want, we have mailing lists with people who
can help you though, so I'm offering to connect you to them

On 4/11/2011 3:11 PM, R Lynch wrote:

  Steve,

  Sorry im lost, What

  do you mean mailing list?

  Robert

Sent from my iPhone

On 12/04/2011, at 7:40 AM, Steve Coast st...@asklater.com

wrote:

 Robert

  Can I forward this to our mailing lists?

  Steve

  On 4/10/2011 7:44 PM, Robert Lynch wrote:

  Hi Steve,

  My name is Robert Lynch and I am
the owner of a few small transport companies in
Australia. Over the past 12 months I have been
building a new transport, logistics and recruitment
software to Launch in Australia. As part of this
software we are looking for routing solutions and
direct guidance for the drivers and a few other
unique developments for this industry.

  Currently there is nothing like
this in the market place and can be quickly

[talk-au] ABS CodePlay

An Australian Bureau of Statistics initiative to help drive
collaboration between students, developers and national and
international statistical agencies.

http://data.gov.au/2770/contest-abs-codeplay/

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Re: [talk-au] ABS CodePlay

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:21:59 +1000
John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote:

 An Australian Bureau of Statistics initiative to help drive
 collaboration between students, developers and national and
 international statistical agencies.
 
 http://data.gov.au/2770/contest-abs-codeplay/
 

that link is to a comment spot rather than to information
have you got another link?

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[Talk-br] Videos sobre Geoprocessamento

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Djavan Fagundes

Pessoal, 

Recebi hoje um link com uma série de vídeos falando sobre
geoprocessamento. É bem interessante..

Fala sobre o episódio do Haiti..

http://geospatialrevolution.psu.edu/


-- 
Djavan Fagundes

E-mail | xmpp: dja...@comum.org

http://djavan.comum.org/blog/
http://butequeiro.comum.org/
http://comum.org



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Re: [Talk-br] Digest Talk-br, volume 31, assunto 7

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden vitor

Oi Mauro,

Abaixo está o link com todas as cidades

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Brasil_250_Cidades/Lista_Completa_de_Cidades
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Brasil_250_Cidades/Lista_Completa_de_Cidades

Você pode buscar as coordenadas digitando os nomes das cidades aqui:

http://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/

Qualquer outra dúvida é só falar.

Abs,
Vitor

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Brazil/Brasil_250_Cidades/Lista_Completa_de_Cidades
2011/4/15 Mauro Borowsky mauro...@gmail.com

  Vitor como faço para ajudar a colocar as coordenadas?

 Mauro

 Em 14/04/2011 08:00, talk-br-requ...@openstreetmap.org escreveu:

 Enviar submissões para a lista de discussão Talk-br para
   talk-br@openstreetmap.org

 Para se cadastrar ou descadastrar via WWW, visite o endereço
   http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-br
 ou, via email, envie uma mensagem com a palavra 'help' no assunto ou
 corpo da mensagem para
   talk-br-requ...@openstreetmap.org

 Você poderá entrar em contato com a pessoa que gerencia a lista pelo
 endereço
   talk-br-ow...@openstreetmap.org

 Quando responder, por favor edite sua linha Assunto assim ela será
 mais específica que Re: Contents of Talk-br digest...


 Tópicos de Hoje:

1. Re: Brasil 5500 (vitor)
2. Re: Brasil 5500 (Rodrigo de Avila)


 --

 Message: 1
 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:09:25 -0300
 From: vitor vitor.geo...@gmail.com vitor.geo...@gmail.com
 To: OSM talk-br talk-br@openstreetmap.org talk-br@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 5500
 Message-ID: banlktinh+mgz2okvce4_xqj9wrigayj...@mail.gmail.com 
 banlktinh+mgz2okvce4_xqj9wrigayj...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

 Pessoal,

 Atualizei o relatório:
 http://mapaslivres.org/brasil5500.html
 http://mapaslivres.org/brasil5500.html 
 http://mapaslivres.org/brasil5500.htmlVi que foram colocadas 100% das
 coordenadas do ES, parabéns! Agora é só ver as conexões que faltam.

 Só queria avisar para que não sejam colocadas no wiki coordenadas com
 separador decimal de vírgula.

 Abs,
 Vitor




 2011/4/12 vitor vitor.geo...@gmail.com vitor.geo...@gmail.com

  Olá Pessoal,

 Gostaria de apresentar para vocês o projeto Brasil 5500.

 Basicamente, é um projeto para colocar todas as cidades brasileiras no
 mapa.

 Fiz um script que testa a conexão entre entre cidades-pólo e cidades dentro
 de um mesmo estado.

 Os resultados podem ser vistos aqui:
 http://mapaslivres.org/brasil5500.html

 Como devem ter percebido, não estão todas as 5562 cidades brasileiras. Para
 que todas estejam aí, será necessário buscar as coordenadas que estão
 faltando e adicionar aqui:
 http://goo.gl/WZQIw

 *Quem quiser adicionar coordenadas, me avise que eu mando o
 compartilhamento.*

 Periodicamente postarei o relatório, utilizando as coordenadas que estão
 nesta planilha.

 O script precisa ainda de alguns ajustes, como por exemplo marcar rotas
 tortuosas. Sugestões são bem vindas!

 Bom mapeamento!

 Vitor


  -- Próxima Parte --
 Um anexo em HTML foi limpo...
 URL: 
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-br/attachments/20110413/528540b9/attachment-0001.html
  
 http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-br/attachments/20110413/528540b9/attachment-0001.html

 --

 Message: 2
 Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:14:56 -0300
 From: Rodrigo de Avila rodr...@avila.net.br rodr...@avila.net.br
 To: OSM talk-br talk-br@openstreetmap.org talk-br@openstreetmap.org
 Subject: Re: [Talk-br] Brasil 5500
 Message-ID: BANLkTi==aa-aq6afy2__p4vangvxsk7...@mail.gmail.com 
 BANLkTi==aa-aq6afy2__p4vangvxsk7...@mail.gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

 Será que a gente não consegue as coordenadas de todos os municípios usando o
 Xapi?
 http://developer.mapquest.com/web/products/open/xapi


 --
 Rodrigo de Avila
 Analista de Desenvolvimento
 rodr...@avila.net.br ? www.avila.net.br



 Em 13 de abril de 2011 14:09, vitor vitor.geo...@gmail.com 
 vitor.geo...@gmail.com escreveu:


  Pessoal,

 Atualizei o relatório:
 http://mapaslivres.org/brasil5500.html
 http://mapaslivres.org/brasil5500.html 
 http://mapaslivres.org/brasil5500.htmlVi que foram colocadas 100% das
 coordenadas do ES, parabéns! Agora é só ver as conexões que faltam.

 Só queria avisar para que não sejam colocadas no wiki coordenadas com
 separador decimal de vírgula.

 Abs,
 Vitor




 2011/4/12 vitor vitor.geo...@gmail.com vitor.geo...@gmail.com

  Olá Pessoal,

 Gostaria de apresentar para vocês o projeto Brasil 5500.

 Basicamente, é um projeto para colocar todas as cidades brasileiras no
 mapa.

 Fiz um script que testa a conexão entre entre cidades-pólo e cidades
 dentro de um mesmo estado.

 Os resultados podem ser vistos aqui:
 http://mapaslivres.org/brasil5500.html

 Como devem ter percebido, não estão todas as 5562 cidades brasileiras.
 Para que todas

Re: [Talk-de] Schreibweise von Hausnummern

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Rainer Knaepper


koppenho schrieb:

Hallo *,

wie taggt man am besten folgende addr:housenumber-Angaben:

1. Hausnummer mit Buchstabenzusatz: Trage ich immer ohne Leerzeichen 
zwischen Nummer und Buchstabe ein.


2. Hausnummer mit Zusatz Einhalb: 42 1/2? Das ist vermutlich ok, 
aber kommt damit eine Zielort-Suche klar?


3. Hausnummernbereiche - große Gebäude oder Firmen haben oft mehrere 
Hausnummern: 5-9 oder 5 - 9, mit oder ohne Leerzeichen erfassen? 
Was ist besser?


Die Fragen wurden vermutlich schon öfter gestellt. Nur leider finde 
ich nichts dazu...



Ich biete noch 24.1

Rainer


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Re: [Talk-de] Schreibweise von Hausnummern

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Peter Wendorff


Hallo Andreas.
Soweit ich bisher gelesen und selbst getan habe, tagge ich die 
Hausnummern unter addr:housenumber so, wie sie auf dem Schild bzw. in 
der Adresse steht.


Hausnummern mit Zusatz folgen schon national in Deutschland keinen 
einheitlichen Regeln - da gibt es 42 1/2, 1 a, 1 A, 1a, 1A und 
vermutlich noch viel mehr, international aber noch viel weniger.
Ich weiß nicht mehr genau, wo das war, aber in mindestens einem Land 
werden Hausnummern nach Entfernung vom Straßenende vergeben.


Einen Standard zu finden, der hier ein nicht-existentes Schema 
berücksichtigt, ist deshalb vermutlich unmöglich.


Deshalb tagge ich Zusätze so, wie sie auf dem Schild stehen.

Gruß
Peter

Am 15.04.2011 06:07, schrieb koppenho:

Hallo *,

wie taggt man am besten folgende addr:housenumber-Angaben:

1. Hausnummer mit Buchstabenzusatz: Trage ich immer ohne Leerzeichen 
zwischen Nummer und Buchstabe ein.


2. Hausnummer mit Zusatz Einhalb: 42 1/2? Das ist vermutlich ok, 
aber kommt damit eine Zielort-Suche klar?


3. Hausnummernbereiche - große Gebäude oder Firmen haben oft mehrere 
Hausnummern: 5-9 oder 5 - 9, mit oder ohne Leerzeichen erfassen? 
Was ist besser?


Die Fragen wurden vermutlich schon öfter gestellt. Nur leider finde 
ich nichts dazu...





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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel Phase 3 beginnt am Sonntag

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Rainer Knaepper


Frederik Ramm schrieb:

Rainer Knaepper wrote:
Knuffig ist, daß ich einer rechtsverbindlichen Vereinbarung zustimmen 
soll, die ich nicht verstehe.


Es gibt inoffizelle Uebersetzungen. Wenn Du auf die Wikiseite zu den 
Contributor Terms schaust


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Database_License/Contributor_Terms 



- dort sind alle verlinkt. Die deutsche Version ist auf dem 
allerneusten Stand.
Finde ich prima, daß man dafür in ML nachfragen muß, warum ist das auf 
dem Zustimmungsformular nicht verlinkt?


Dermot hat uebrigens recht, wenn er sagt, dass das bei der Anmeldung 
schon immer so war.

Es geht nicht um Recht haben.

Wenn Du Dich nicht gerade im letzten Jahr angemeldet hast, dann hast 
Du einen komplett englischen Anmeldeprozess mit Link auf eine 
englische Lizenz durchlaufen, von der es lediglich inoffizielle 
Uebersetzungen gab (rechtsverbindlich war immer das englische Original).
CC-Lizenzen gibt es seit 2004 auch auf deutsch, wobei sich die deutsche 
Version im Wesentlichen nicht von der englischsprachigen unterscheidet 
und nur ein paar Anpassungen an die Besonderheiten deutschen 
Urheberrechts enthält. Wenn man in den Grundzügen mit CC übereinstimmt, 
kann man auch eine englische Anmeldeprozedur durchlaufen. Was will 
Dermot beweisen?
Problematisch ist die Sache allerdings in der Tat nicht fuer Deutsche, 
sondern fuer Sprecher von Sprachen, fuer die wir keine Uebersetzung 
haben. Hier kann man sich auf den Standpunkt stellen, dass bei der 
CC-BY-SA wenigstens eine inoffizielle Uebersetzung da war, bei unseren 
CT aber gar nichts. Allerdings sind auch unsere sonstigen Tools in 
aller Regel nicht so breit uebersetzt, so dass man hoffen darf, dass 
die meisten Teilnehmer, die z.B. aus Osteuropa mitmachen, Englisch 
koennen.
Ein englischsprachiges Tool zu benutzen oder einen rechtsverbindlichen 
Text zu verstehen sind doch wohl zwei SEHR unterschiedliche Dinge. 
Würdest Du einen Kaufvertrag unterschreiben, der Dir nur auf Kisuaheli 
vorliegt und von dem Dir irgend ein flüchtiger Bekannter sagt Ja, paßt 
schon!?


Ich habe schon einmal eine Lizenzumstellung miterlebt, die Tücken liegen 
oft in Details, auf die ein juristisch Ungebildeter beim Durchlesen im 
Leben nicht kommt. Ich lasse mich gerne davon überzeugen, daß die ODbL 
die bessere Lösung ist, aber das ist alles ziemlich erbärmlich 
kommuniziert worden. Wenn man etwas von seinen (freiwilligen) 
Mitarbeiten will, muß man auf die  ZUGEHEN, und nicht die Brocken vor 
die Nase setzen und sagen den Rest sucht auch mal selbst zusammen.


Nur zur Verklaring: Mein Rant richtet sich nicht gegen die Schreiber 
hier in der Liste, die sich redlich bemühen, Probleme aller Art zu lösen.


Rainer


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Re: [Talk-de] Schreibweise von Hausnummern

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Florian Lohoff

On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 06:07:42AM +0200, koppenho wrote:
 Hallo *,
 
 wie taggt man am besten folgende addr:housenumber-Angaben:
 
 1. Hausnummer mit Buchstabenzusatz: Trage ich immer ohne Leerzeichen
 zwischen Nummer und Buchstabe ein.
 
 2. Hausnummer mit Zusatz Einhalb: 42 1/2? Das ist vermutlich ok,
 aber kommt damit eine Zielort-Suche klar?
 
 3. Hausnummernbereiche - große Gebäude oder Firmen haben oft mehrere
 Hausnummern: 5-9 oder 5 - 9, mit oder ohne Leerzeichen erfassen?
 Was ist besser?
 
 Die Fragen wurden vermutlich schon öfter gestellt. Nur leider finde
 ich nichts dazu...

Das es da nichts einheitliches gibt werden die Präprozessoren das
alles koennen muessen. Gerade spaces sind wirklich technisch kein problem
und ob das 238a oder 38 a spielt keine rolle.

Und was 42 1/2 angeht - Ich glaube nicht das das offiziell ist. Da hat
sich jemand einen Scherz geleistet :)

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
„Für eine ausgewogene Energiepolitik über das Jahr 2020 hinaus ist die
Nutzung von Atomenergie eine Brückentechnologie und unverzichtbar. Ein
Ausstieg in zehn Jahren, wie noch unter der rot-grünen Regierung
beschlossen, kommt für die nationale Energieversorgung zu abrupt.“
Angela Merkel CDU 30.8.2009


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Re: [Talk-de] Darstellung von geotagged Bildern in OSM

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden hike39

Hallo Kolossos,
ich weiss meine ursprüngliche Anfrage ist schon lange her, aber bis
jetzt hatte ich leider noch keine Zeit mich mit Openlayers zu befassen.
Gibt es zufällig eine eteas umfangreichere Beschreibung, zu dieser Lösung?

Grüße
hike39


Am 09.10.2010 00:24, schrieb Kolossos:
 Schau mal:
 http://toolserver.org/~kolossos/openlayers/commons-on-osm.php?zoom=16lat=51.05738889lon=13.73836111
 
 Das ganze basiert auf einer je nach Bildausschnitt aus einer Datenbank
 neu erzeugten KML,
 wenn es um max. 1000 Bilder geht, würde auch ein statisches KML-file
 reichen.
 Es wäre auch ein leichtes statt den Icons kleine Bildchen anzuzeigen.
 
 Grüße Kolossos
 
 
 hike39 schrieb:
 Hallo,
 ich bin auf der Suche nach einer Möglichkeit Photos, die ich über das
 JOSM-Addon Photo Geotagging mit Positionsinfos versehen habe, auch in
 OSM anzeigen zu lassen.

 Gibt es hierzu schon eine Lösung? Ich habe gerade überall im Wiki und
 in den dt. Diskussionsgruppen gesucht, aber leider nichts gefunden.

 hike39


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Re: [Talk-de] Mapnik deutscher Kartenstil: fehlende Bezeichnung von Flüssen

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Sven Geggus

yobiSource yobisou...@googlemail.com wrote:

 ich erstelle gerade SLD Styles für Geoserver und orientiere mich dabei 
 am deutschen Mapnik Kartenstil.
 Mir ist dabei aufgefallen das in der Datei layer-water.xml.inc (im 
 Gegensatz zum englischen Stil)
 waterway=river keine Bezeichnung hat aber drain und ditch sehr wohl.
 
 Hat das einen bestimmten Grund warum mehrere Meter breite Flüsse nicht 
 bezeichnet werden aber kleine Bäche usw. schon?
 Lustigerweise werden Flüsse in Tunneln wieder bezeichnet. :)

Wie wäre es wenn Du uns einfach eienn patch machen würdest?

Gruss

Sven

-- 
Der wichtigste Aspekt, den Sie vor der Entscheidung für ein Open
Source-Betriebssystem bedenken sollten, ist, dass Sie kein
Windows-Betriebssystem erhalten. (von http://www.dell.de/ubuntu)
/me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] Schreibweise von Hausnummern

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Dietmar

Hallo Florian,



 Von: Florian Lohoff [mailto:f...@zz.de]
 Gesendet am: Freitag, 15. April 2011 10:02
  ...
 Und was 42 1/2 angeht - Ich glaube nicht das das offiziell ist. Da hat
 sich jemand einen Scherz geleistet :)

 Flo

Nö, bei uns in Augsburg gibt es die offiziell. Das Extrem ist
Schertlinstraße 11 1/218, in dem Komplex gibt es auch noch 11 1/.. a

Wenn ein Flurstück an der Straße ist und mit mehreren Gebäuden bebaut wird,
bekommt das erste x 1/2, das nächste x 1/3 usw. Häuser in zweiter Reihe
erhalten dann a, 3. Reihe b usw.

Gibt es mind. in Bayern öfters, macht aber immer wieder Spaß bei einigen
Adressprogrammen ;)

Viele Grüße

Dietmar


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[Talk-de] Tag für Bauunternehmer

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden hike39

Hallo zusammen,

hat jemand von Euch einen Tipp wie man Büros oder Gelände von
Bauunternehmern taggt? Dies schließt natuerlich Hoch- und Tiefbau ein.

Gruß
hike39


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Re: [Talk-de] Tag für Bauunternehmer

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden André Joost


Am 15.04.11 10:20, schrieb hike39:

Hallo zusammen,

hat jemand von Euch einen Tipp wie man Büros oder Gelände von
Bauunternehmern taggt? Dies schließt natuerlich Hoch- und Tiefbau ein.



Wenn es dir um den Bauhof geht:
landuse=industrial
industrial=construction_company

Wenn es dir um die (Büro-)Zentrale geht:
building=yes
office=construction_company

oder hier nachschlagen:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:craft

Gruß,
André Joost


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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel Phase 3 beginnt am Sonntag

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Bernd Wurst

Am Freitag, 15. April 2011, um 09:42:40 schrieb Rainer Knaepper:
 Nur zur Verklaring: Mein Rant richtet sich nicht gegen die Schreiber 
 hier in der Liste, die sich redlich bemühen, Probleme aller Art zu lösen.

Sondern?

Gegen die dick bezahlten Bosse, die sich im Hauptquartier der OSMF den ganzen 
Tag ihren dicken Ledersessel platt drücken?


Alle im Projekt OSM sind Freiwillige. Alle Sachgebiete sind darauf angewiesen, 
dass jemand mit macht. Scheinbar hat das Engagement der Freiwilligen eben 
nicht dafür gereicht, jedem alles auf dem Silbertablett zu servieren. Mach 
halt auch mit und hilf dabei. Oder sei froh, dass es überhaupt eine deutsche 
Übersetzung gibt.

Und wer wirklich ein Problem damit hat einen englischsprachigen Vertrag (von 
dem es nur eine unverbindliche Übersetzung gibt) einzugehen, der soll es halt 
lassen. Dieses Na, na na, ich könnte das aber anfechten, wenn ich ein böser 
Bub wär nervt nämlich gewaltig. Jeder ist mündig genug zu sagen ist mir zu 
heikel, ich lass es sein.

Gruß, Bernd

-- 
Das Ärgerlichste in dieser Welt ist, daß die Dummen todsicher und die 
Intelligenten voller Zweifel sind.


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Re: [Talk-de] Schreibweise von Hausnummern

Am 15. April 2011 06:07 schrieb koppenho koppe...@online.de:
 1. Hausnummer mit Buchstabenzusatz: Trage ich immer ohne Leerzeichen
 zwischen Nummer und Buchstabe ein.


ich auch


 2. Hausnummer mit Zusatz Einhalb: 42 1/2? Das ist vermutlich ok, aber
 kommt damit eine Zielort-Suche klar?


m.E. ist das nicht Einhalb sondern 1 von 2 (Vermutung). Einhalb
würde ich evtl. so eintragen: ½


 3. Hausnummernbereiche - große Gebäude oder Firmen haben oft mehrere
 Hausnummern: 5-9 oder 5 - 9, mit oder ohne Leerzeichen erfassen? Was ist
 besser?


ich würde es ohne Leerzeichen machen, aber im Prinzip ist es egal


Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Schreibweise von Hausnummern

Nachtrag zum Thema kuriose Hausnummern:

die Null habe ich auch schon gefunden:
http://www.23hq.com/dieterdreist/photo/5258357

und so was hier fand ich auch schön absurd ;-)
http://www.23hq.com/dieterdreist/photo/6281418?

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Mapnik deutscher Kartenstil: fehlende Bezeichnung von Flüssen

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden yobiSource


Am 15.04.2011 10:11, schrieb Sven Geggus:

Wie wäre es wenn Du uns einfach eienn patch machen würdest?

Da muss nur wie im englischen Stil folgende Zeile bei den River 
Definitionen rein:
TextSymbolizer name=name fontset_name=book-fonts size=9 
fill=#6699cc halo_radius=1 placement=line spacing=400 /


Ab zoom 14 mit size=10

Gibt es den jemanden der am deutschen Stil gearbeitet hat und sagen kann 
ob das ein Bug ist oder aus einen bestimmten Grund so gemacht wurde? 
(gerade in Bezug auf die Umrandung der Gebäudeflächen)


MfG
yobiSource

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Re: [Talk-de] Tag für Bauunternehmer

Je nachdem, was mit Bauunternehmer gemeint ist, oft bezeichnen sich
Rohbaufirmen so (=Maurer/Betonbauer, ggf. Stahlbauer, Tiefbaufirmen),
und je nach Größe um industrial oder ggf. craft. Bauunternehmer im
rechtlichen Sinn sind alle Firmen, die Bauleistungen anbieten, es
kommt darauf an, welche Leistungen erbracht werden (Fachunternehmer,
Generalunternehmer, Totalunternehmer, Generalübernehmer) (einzelnes
Gewerk, alle/die meisten Gewerke, einschl. Planungsleistungen,
Ausführung überwiegend durch Subunternehmer). Einzelne Gewerke können
mit craft angegeben werden.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel Phase 3 beginnt am Sonntag

Am 14. April 2011 19:44 schrieb Chris66 chris66...@gmx.de:
 Am 14.04.2011 18:37, schrieb Manuel Reimer:

 Genau dieser Zwitter-Zustand, der jetzt schon ewig andauert, beginnt
 zumindest mich so langsam zu nerven.

 +1


+1

wieso sollen immer noch weiter die Daten mit vermutlich zukünftig
inkompatiblen Edits belastet werden? Wenn jemand Probleme hat,
aufgrund von einzelnen (oder allen Edits) der ODbL zuzustimmen, dann
kann der ja verläufig mit einem neuen Account weitermachen.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel Phase 3 beginnt am Sonntag

Am 14. April 2011 20:09 schrieb Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org:
 ist es vielleicht auch gar nicht so schlecht, wenn man vom
 Lizenzwechsel durch einen Mapper aus der eigenen Stadt erfaehrt (und
 vorallem auch: in der eigenen Sprache)


Ich hoffe, dass diese Rundmail jeweils in der eigenen Sprache (evtl.
zweisprachig engl. / lokal) verschickt wird. So was zu übersetzen
sollte uns vor keine allzu großen Probleme stellen, und Zeitdruck
scheint es ja nicht zu geben ;-)

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel Phase 3 beginnt am Sonntag

Am 14. April 2011 22:37 schrieb Rainer Knaepper sm...@gmx.de:
 Frederik Ramm schrieb:
 http://openstreetmap.org/user/terms
 Knuffig ist, daß ich einer rechtsverbindlichen Vereinbarung zustimmen soll,
 die ich nicht verstehe.


wobei es schon ein paar Dokumente gibt, die versuchen, es Dir auch auf
Deutsch zu erklären. So ist das nunmal in einer globalisierten Welt,
wenn man an einem Projekt in England teilnimmt. Ich hätte kein
Verständnis, wenn die OSMF für viel Geld den Vertrag in zig Sprachen
rechtsverbindlich übersetzen ließe, obwohl es rechtlich nicht
erforderlich ist.

Von daher ist hier eigentlich der falsche Ort fürs Lamentieren, Du
müsstest Dich an den deutschen Gesetzgeber wenden, der solche Verträge
zulässt --- was in anderen Ländern übrigens teilweise anders ist,
weshalb die OSMF für wenige andere Sprachen rechtsverbindliche
Übersetzungen anbieten muss.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Schreibweise von Hausnummern

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Rainer Knaepper


M∡rtin Koppenhoefer schrieb:

Nachtrag zum Thema kuriose Hausnummern:

die Null habe ich auch schon gefunden:
http://www.23hq.com/dieterdreist/photo/5258357
  

Entschuldigung, ist das hier Hausnummer LXII?
Nein, dies ist LXIII, aber es ist heruntergefallen ein I

Rainer


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Re: [Talk-de] Mapnik deutscher Kartenstil: fehlende Bezeichnung von Flüssen

Am 15. April 2011 12:25 schrieb yobiSource yobisou...@googlemail.com:
 Gibt es den jemanden der am deutschen Stil gearbeitet hat und sagen kann ob
 das ein Bug ist oder aus einen bestimmten Grund so gemacht wurde? (gerade in
 Bezug auf die Umrandung der Gebäudeflächen)


Ich habe da zwar nicht daran mitgearbeitet, aber den Grund kenne ich
vermutlich: der deutsche Stil basiert auf einer älteren Version des
offiziellen Mapnik-stils, wo Umrandungen von Gebäuden noch nicht drin
waren.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Lizenzwechsel Phase 3 beginnt am Sonntag

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Dermot McNally

2011/4/15 Rainer Knaepper sm...@gmx.de:

 Was will Dermot beweisen?

Beweisen nichts, sondern nur verstehen. Es scheinte und scheint mir
noch, dass du bei der ersten OSM Anmeldung auf gleicher Art eine Liste
auf Englisch von verbindlichen Bedingungen zur Teilnahme zugestimmt
hast. Und dann, wie auch heute, hättest du die Option gehabt, dich von
inoffiziellen aber glaubwürdigen Communityquellen in der Muttersprache
zu informieren. Deine Aussage finde ich gerade so überraschend weil es
seit lange deutsche Übersetzungen gibt - jeder, der danach gesucht hat
hätte mit Sicherheit was gefunden, oder?

Dermot

-- 
--
Igaühel on siin oma laul
ja ma oma ei leiagi üles

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Re: [Talk-de] itoworld Layers

Am 14. April 2011 21:23 schrieb Johannes Huesing johan...@huesing.name:
 Die neuen Hervorhebungen von ITO World sind ziemlich schmuck, aber es wird
 wieder etwas als Fehler gebrandmarkt, was hier viele nicht als Fehler
 empfinden. Mir ist hier 
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ITO_Map#Buildings_and_addresses
 aufgefallen. Gebäudeumrisse, die keine Hausnummer und keinen Hausnamen haben,
 werden rot dargestellt, so, als ob hier ein Manko herrschte. Dabei halten
 es viele so und verteidigen dies auch auf dieser Liste so, dass die Adressen
 als einzelne Punkte in den Gebäudeumriss oder an dessen Rand gesetzt
 werden.


naja, das ist evtl. zwar Ansichtssache, ein Node ist aber in dem Fall
fast immer schlechter als ein Polygon, korrekterweise/idealerweise am
Grundstück (bei kleineren Einheiten) bzw. am
Gebäude/Treppenaufgang/etc. wo es jeweils gilt.

Was sind denn ausser besserem Rendering die Argumente für einen Node?

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Tag für Bauunternehmer

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden hike39

Genau dort habe ich nachgesehen. Leider ist dieser Tag dort noch nicht
aufgeführt. Aber ich möchte mich dennoch recht herzlich für die schnelle
Antwort bei Dir und Martin bedanken.

hike39

Am 15.04.2011 11:40, schrieb André Joost:

 oder hier nachschlagen:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:craft
 



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Re: [Talk-de] Tag für Bauunternehmer

Am 15. April 2011 15:30 schrieb hike39 ho...@hike.de:
 oder hier nachschlagen:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:craft
 Genau dort habe ich nachgesehen. Leider ist dieser Tag dort noch nicht
 aufgeführt.


ja, eine der OSM-Wiki-Seiten, wo zig Details aufgeführt sind und die
wichtigsten Dinge (zumindest aus dem Bauhandwerk) allesamt fehlen *
oder z.T. falsch übersetzt sind.

So eine DetailSeite wie die hier:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dcarpenter hätte man
auch ruhig mal diskuttieren können, dann würde nicht so ein Zeugs wie
Zimmermann=Tischler (carpenter=joiner) oder Zimmermann=Möbeltischler
(carpenter=cabinet_maker) empfohlen (Tischler==Schreiner für die
Süddeutschen).

Strukturellen Holzbau (=Zimmermann) würde ich auf jeden Fall vom
Innenausbau / Möbelbau unterscheiden.


Gruß Martin

* Nämlich die Rohbaugewerke, d.h. diejenigen, die das eigentliche
Gebäude erstellen: Rohbauer (Maurer, Beton- und Schalungsbauer,
Stahlbauer, Zimmerleute (die sind zwar da, aber als Schreiner
bezeichnet auf der dt Seite)).

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Re: [Talk-de] Tag für Bauunternehmer

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Andre Joost

M∡rtin Koppenhoefer schrieb:
 Am 15. April 2011 15:30 schrieb hike39 ho...@hike.de:
 oder hier nachschlagen:
 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:craft
 Genau dort habe ich nachgesehen. Leider ist dieser Tag dort noch nicht
 aufgeführt.
 
 
 ja, eine der OSM-Wiki-Seiten, wo zig Details aufgeführt sind und die
 wichtigsten Dinge (zumindest aus dem Bauhandwerk) allesamt fehlen *
 oder z.T. falsch übersetzt sind.
 

Dann mach doch mal. Du bist doch vom Fach ;-)

-- 
Gruß,
André Joost


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[Talk-de] Holzbereich in craft

Aufgrund eines parallelen Threads schlage ich vor, den Holzbereich im
Wiki zu überarbeiten.

Grundsätzlich würde ich zwischen strukturellen Arbeiten (tragende
Bauteile wie Wände und Dach) und Innenausbau/Möbelherstellung
unterscheiden. Die Grenzen sind da zugegebenermaßen teilweise etwas
schwammig, eine Holztreppe kann einem sowohl der Schreiner als auch
der Zimmermann herstellen (je nachdem, welche Toleranzen man will ;-)
), aber prinzipiell gibt es schon diese Unterscheidung.

Ich würde carpenter als das definieren, was im Deutschen ein
Zimmermann ist. Joiner könnte man als Tischler verwenden. Untergruppen
wären site_joinery (Bautischler) und fine_joinery / cabinet_maker
(Möbeltischler), wobei es da (wie überall bei craft) durchaus auch
kulturelle Unterschiede gibt (gem. Wikipedia sind joiner Leute, die
Verbindungen ohne Nägel herstellen).

Geigenbauer würde ich nicht in diese Kategorie packen, kann man aber
evtl. auch streiten drüber.

Messebauer / Bühnenbauer (scenic) bin ich mir nicht sicher, einerseits
sind das oft (z.T. ungelernte) Monteure von Fertigsystemen,
andererseits machen das schon auch Zimmerleute.

Schiffsbauer (Schiffszimmerer) könnte man, soweit es um Holzschiffe
geht, aus meiner Sicht als Untergruppe der Zimmerer sehen. Kunststoff,
Stahl- und Betonschiffe werden naturgemäß von anderen Gewerken (oft
auch industriell) hergestellt.

Fensterbauer, soweit sie Holzfenster herstellen, sind auch verwandt
mit den Schreinern (aber auch mit den Glasern).

Im Wiki gibt es neben craft bisher das hier
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dcarpenter

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] Tag für Bauunternehmer

Am 15. April 2011 16:47 schrieb Andre Joost andre+jo...@nurfuerspam.de:
 ja, eine der OSM-Wiki-Seiten, wo zig Details aufgeführt sind und die
 wichtigsten Dinge (zumindest aus dem Bauhandwerk) allesamt fehlen *
 oder z.T. falsch übersetzt sind.


 Dann mach doch mal. Du bist doch vom Fach ;-)


schon angefangen. Ist leider nicht so einfach, da es da kulturelle
Unterschiede gibt.

Gruß Martin

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Re: [Talk-de] ?Mapnik deutscher Kartenstil: fehlende Bezeichnung von Flüssen

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Sven Geggus

M∡rtin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ich habe da zwar nicht daran mitgearbeitet, aber den Grund kenne ich
 vermutlich: der deutsche Stil basiert auf einer älteren Version des
 offiziellen Mapnik-stils, wo Umrandungen von Gebäuden noch nicht drin
 waren.

Das ist ziemlich sicher der Grund. AFAIK suchen wir für den deutschen Stil
Maintainer.

Sven

-- 
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly
(Henry Spencer)

/me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] Mapnik deutscher Kartenstil: fehlende Bezeichnung von Flüssen

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Sven Geggus

yobiSource yobisou...@googlemail.com wrote:

 Da muss nur wie im englischen Stil folgende Zeile bei den River 
 Definitionen rein:
 TextSymbolizer name=name fontset_name=book-fonts size=9 
 fill=#6699cc halo_radius=1 placement=line spacing=400 /
 
 Ab zoom 14 mit size=10

Poste das doch mal im diff format, dann würd ich es gleich im SVN
einchecken.

Gruss

Sven

-- 
/*
 * Wirzenius wrote this portably, Torvalds fucked it up :-)
 */(taken from /usr/src/linux/lib/vsprintf.c)
/me is giggls@ircnet, http://sven.gegg.us/ on the Web

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Re: [Talk-de] Holzbereich in craft

Am 15. April 2011 17:00 schrieb Peter Körner osm-li...@mazdermind.de:
 um das abzukürzen: just do it :)


ich danke Dir für das Vertrauen, aber leider ist das gar nicht so
einfach. Carpenter ist wohl doch eher eine generische Bezeichnung, so
was wie Holzverarbeiter, d.h. ein Zimmermann ließe sich evtl. besser
als framer übersetzen. Ich würde dann allerdings diese nicht alle im
carpenter gruppieren, sondern die Subklassen gleich in die obere
Ebene packen. Wikipedia:en wird halt auch viel von Ausländern
geschrieben ;-), Leo bringt einen auch nicht weiter.

Evtl. geht es so:
joiner=Bautischler (=Schreiner Innenausbau)
framer (od. carpenter) = Zimmermann
cabinet_maker=Möbeltischler (=Möbelschreiner) scheint hingegen
eindeutig zu sein.

Dazu kommt, dass es Schnittmengen immer gibt in diesen Bereichen, im
Prinzip macht Dir jeder Handwerker (fast) alles (na ja gut,
übertrieben), aber i.d.R. ist man besser bedient, wenn man den
Spezialisten nimmt.

Vielleicht sollte man auch noch ein Spezialgebiet taggen können, vor
allem, wenn man mit den Daten was anfangen will, z.B. gezielt jemanden
suchen, der sich auf Messebau oder Bühnenbildherstellung spezialisiert
hat.

Gruß Martin

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[Talk-de] Hilfe: Leere Relation E 54 Europastraße

2011-04-15 Diskussionsfäden Toni Erdmann


Hallo zusammen,

wie gesagt: die Relation 77040, Europastraße E 54 ist leer, und dass
mit der Version 455.

Laut

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_Europe/E-road_network

muss sie mal zu 70% gemapped gewesen sein.


http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/77040/history

hilft leider nicht, Request dauert zu lange.

Wie kann ich die letzte nicht-leere Version zurück holen.

Ich erinnere mich, dass ich selbst vor 2 Jahren den
Radweg D 11 geleert hatte und Frederik Ramm das Ding
restaurieren konnte - nur wie geht's.

Danke,
Toni

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Re: [Talk-de] Hilfe: Leere Relation E 54 Europastraße