Re: [talk-au] How to tag a non-existent road
I would rather that we don't have non existant roads on OSM. Twenty plus years ago, I heard a comment that maps had deliberate errors in them so that the mapmakers could find if others were copying their work. In my job of driving around Australia checking mobile phone coverage, I am constantly reading maps (provided by the company) to work out a driving plan, and relying on a Garmin Nuvi to confirm where I am. I did 193,000 km in 18 months in my first car and now I do about 100,000 km per year (in my second car) because our driving is now concentrated on city and suburban areas. (where people live, work and play) I work out driving plans that can take weeks to complete ie, all of NSW west of the Great Divide, and all of SW Western Australia. Both took about 8 weeks to complete. I take great pride in doing what I call efficient driving where I cover the greatest distance and area in the least time and fuel used. I used $22,000 plus worth of fuel in the first 12 months. I also 'cut it fine' a lot of the time with no buffer for time if there is an error. I go out for 10 working days straight, then fly back to Canberra for a 4 day weekend, then go out again. If I have been delayed anywhere, then the driving plan gets mucked up because I dont want to miss my flight and when I return I may have to take another day to drive back to the area that I should have completed, finish the job, then drive to the new area. Again, more time lost and fuel used. Two of the greatest, most hair tearing and frustrating things that can scuttle my driving plan are non existant roads and no through roads that are not marked as such. Now some of these non existant roads are not a real problem if they are in a small out back town with only a few hundred people in them and I can quickly alter the plan and work around it, and I have found places where the roads are obviously gazetted and therefore appear on the Garmin Nuvi, but the locals have fenced the streets off and run goats and chooks there. Squatting, in other words. But if a road does not exist but is marked on my maps or appears in the Garmin Nuvi, then I have to drive back over roads that I have already driven on which makes the job take longer and uses more fuel. There is a good example north of Penrith heading for Castlereigh. A road is gazetted and the farms either side have been cleared and fenced, but the road is virgin bush. Stuffed my plan right up. Another place where non existant roads turned my hair white is Katoomba. If you rely on the Garmin Nuvi it will take you over a cliff in several places. I looked up whereis.com and found where I could make complaints, but decided that it would be a near full time job correcting their errors. No through roads are another bane. I don't know if OSM has a function to tag no through roads, but if they dont, then could we have it please. NTR No Through Road. There are many instances of intersections that have been converted to T junctions and one no thru road. One suburb in Cairns in particular (Edge Hill), and Salisbury in Adelaide have lots. It's obviously been done as a road safety initiative and I will not critisize this decision. The printed company maps that I get generally can't show some no thru roads because the scale is too small to see that the intersection has been converted, and the Nuvi again has to have the scale set right down to see it, which takes my focus off to road. When I first started on OSM, I wanted to have altitude data in with the lat lon info, and was told bluntly that OSM is a street map, not a GIS. So, my bottom line is: Don't have non existant roads. OSM is a street map displaying roads that do exist! _ Use Messenger in your Hotmail inbox Find out how here http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=823454___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a non-existent road
2009/10/25 Graeme Wilson wandere...@live.com.au: I would rather that we don't have non existant roads on OSM. I'm sure we all have things we dislike about OSM. Twenty plus years ago, I heard a comment that maps had deliberate errors in them so that the mapmakers could find if others were copying their work. This has nothing to do with copyright, it has everything to do with seeing roads blanks on OSM and non-blanks on other maps and wasting time trying to constantly re-map non-existent features time and time again. In this instance we are trying to determine if something is blank because it hasn't been surveyed or because it's truly blank. snip Two of the greatest, most hair tearing and frustrating things that can scuttle my driving plan are non existant roads and no through roads that are not marked as such. This is exactly what we're trying to address, showing others the difference between non-existent and non-mapped. snip, snip, snippity snip So, my bottom line is: Don't have non existant roads. OSM is a street map displaying roads that do exist! OSM is a lot more than what is only rendered, just because the data exists doesn't mean it should always be rendered or will be useful to everyone all the time, and this is one very good example of where OSM becomes very useful to a diverse group of people. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a non-existent road
On Sun, Oct 25, 2009 at 11:54 PM, Graeme Wilson wandere...@live.com.au wrote: [cut for brevity] When I first started on OSM, I wanted to have altitude data in with the lat lon info, and was told bluntly that OSM is a street map, not a GIS. We do have altitude now in the Shuttle Radar Topography Mission data (provided by NASA so doesn't require surveying by OSM at all!). Many cyclists use this for their OpenCycleMap. eg. http://www.opencyclemap.org/?zoom=4lat=-33.43234lon=145.67438layers=B000 . I believe that there is a way to export this elevation data to Garmin devices too - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/GroundTruth So, my bottom line is: Don't have non existant roads. OSM is a street map displaying roads that do exist! I believe the intention of the discussion we are having here is that we want to mark non-existant roads in such a way that we won't accidently introduce them to OSM again if we get data from a source that may be outdated or intentionally misleading (just like those copying fearful mapmakers). It will of course be essential that these are not displayed in a misleading way (or not displayed at all) and are not suggested as possible routes. We do have a way of marking no through roads via the access=no tag so while whichever tag is chosen for nonexistent roads is being adopted worldwide, we can still ensure that there will not be any confusion. However, I'm not sure how that is displayed on the various outputs (such as the Garmin devices, the web page maps etc.). ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a non-existent road
I agree with Graeme Wilson. OSM should not include non-existent roads. The only convincing argument I have seen put so far by the minority who want to show them is that it will save other mappers from wasted time. Given that mappers are the minority and people like Graeme in the majority I think it is there needs that should be given priority. Further, there is still the unresolved problem of what to tag these roads. Non-existent is unhelpful and ambiguous as many people have pointed out here. As far as I am concerned non-existent roads are in the same category as childrens' imaginary friends, important to the individual but not of much interest to anyone else. Let's face it. There is so much that really does exist left to be mapped we hardly need to put effort, particularly given the problems, into what does not. 2009/10/26 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com 2009/10/25 Alex (Maxious) Sadleir maxi...@gmail.com: It will of course be essential that these are not displayed in a misleading way (or not displayed at all) and are not suggested as possible routes. We do have a way of marking no through roads via the access=no tag so while whichever tag is chosen for nonexistent roads is being adopted worldwide, we can still ensure that there will not be any confusion. However, I'm not sure how that is displayed on the various outputs (such as the Garmin devices, the web page maps etc.). If they do appear we need to file bugs so that the parsing code is fixed up to not show them :) The problem here isn't collecting data, it's making sure it doesn't appear most of the time. Unlike raster images which display everything collected, vector information can be selectively shown etc. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a non-existent road
2009/10/26 swanilli swani...@gmail.com: I agree with Graeme Wilson. OSM should not include non-existent roads. The only convincing argument I have seen put so far by the minority who want to show them is that it will save other mappers from wasted time. Given that mappers are the minority and people like Graeme in the majority I think it is there needs that should be given priority. The only reason given so far that this shouldn't happen is so it doesn't render, but there is a lot of data that exists that isn't intended for rendering. Further, there is still the unresolved problem of what to tag these roads. Non-existent is unhelpful and ambiguous as many people have pointed out here. As far as I am concerned non-existent roads are in the same category as childrens' imaginary friends, important to the individual but not of much interest to anyone else. So far you are the only one suggesting non-existent is unhelpful or ambiguous, please explain how it is either of these things. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] How to tag a non-existent road
2009/10/26 John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com So far you are the only one suggesting non-existent is unhelpful or ambiguous, please explain how it is either of these things. A browse through the preceding 30 or so entries in this thread will show that this is not the case. However, in an attempt to move this towards resolution, I have opened another to give people the opportunity to vote on the specifics. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Vote on highway=nonexistent
The current suggestion in http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines is that roads that do not yet exist be tagged highway=nonexistent. There are two key questions to be answered: 1. Should such roads be entered into OSM? 2. If they are to be entered, should they be tagged highway=nonexistent? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
