[talk-au] Suburbs in Australia
Hi I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you guys. Hope you can help me help OSM. --- Hi I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location of the [suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to West Pymble. I would have called West Pymble the shopping centre located [here][2]. I note the following with respect to Sydney: a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg California, where I would have compared many cities to be 'suburbs'. It's probably a population thing. There seems to be a trend towards more cities, (eg Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith etc) but in general usage, most places are referred to principally as 'suburbs'. b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went to town' in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg Town Hall station. This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many of the places I would have referred to as suburbs were referred to as towns. These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally expanded organically from a central point. c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the suburb, they would refer to the principal activity centre of that area. In most cases that is the main shopping or commercial area. Sometimes it might be a train station. Sometimes something else. But if you drive to the West Pymble located above, you are in the middle of a residential area. And here's where things extrapolate. **IMPORTANT** Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in Australia][3]. My West Pymble example is trivial. However, in Australia is not just a matter of inconvenience. I'd welcome any other Aussies kicking in their opinions as well. As I said, my example is trivial, but it could turn wickedly wrong on some of the cattle stations that are [24000 square kms][4] (6m acres). Centre of that (geographically) could see you 100s or 1000s of kms away from help, and be life or death. I went looking at the definition of suburb and [found][5] that it refers to the 'centre of the suburb'. It is not clear if this is meant to be the geographic centre or some other type of centre. This need clarification. Look. I'm new to this editing and everything. I am hoping to get some clarification on this to help with not just this suburb, but to provide valuable guidance for other suburbs as well. I would request an update to the wiki as well to help clarify this. Appreciate your help. [1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.756665lon=151.128885zoom=18layers=M [2]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.761018lon=151.128327zoom=18layers=M [3]: http://www.geekosystem.com/apple-maps-australia/ [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Creek_station [5]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Suburb - ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia
Hi. Suburb can mean an area bounded by a gazetted boundary. There is a sense in which town is similar to suburb, in the sense of how the boundary is defined. I am pretty sure the UK is different in this regard. I don't know if West Pymble is a gazetted suburb (I think yes), but it would then have a boundary. The name you see is likely a node, possibly placed within the gazetted boundary for West Pymble, or possibly not. See the recent discussion on this list for town vs city, in the OSM sense. - Ben. On 20/12/2012 9:35 PM, Darren Burt burt.dar...@gmail.com wrote: Hi I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you guys. Hope you can help me help OSM. --- Hi I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location of the [suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to West Pymble. I would have called West Pymble the shopping centre located [here][2]. I note the following with respect to Sydney: a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg California, where I would have compared many cities to be 'suburbs'. It's probably a population thing. There seems to be a trend towards more cities, (eg Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith etc) but in general usage, most places are referred to principally as 'suburbs'. b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went to town' in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg Town Hall station. This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many of the places I would have referred to as suburbs were referred to as towns. These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally expanded organically from a central point. c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the suburb, they would refer to the principal activity centre of that area. In most cases that is the main shopping or commercial area. Sometimes it might be a train station. Sometimes something else. But if you drive to the West Pymble located above, you are in the middle of a residential area. And here's where things extrapolate. **IMPORTANT** Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in Australia][3]. My West Pymble example is trivial. However, in Australia is not just a matter of inconvenience. I'd welcome any other Aussies kicking in their opinions as well. As I said, my example is trivial, but it could turn wickedly wrong on some of the cattle stations that are [24000 square kms][4] (6m acres). Centre of that (geographically) could see you 100s or 1000s of kms away from help, and be life or death. I went looking at the definition of suburb and [found][5] that it refers to the 'centre of the suburb'. It is not clear if this is meant to be the geographic centre or some other type of centre. This need clarification. Look. I'm new to this editing and everything. I am hoping to get some clarification on this to help with not just this suburb, but to provide valuable guidance for other suburbs as well. I would request an update to the wiki as well to help clarify this. Appreciate your help. [1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?**lat=-33.756665lon=151.128885** zoom=18layers=Mhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.756665lon=151.128885zoom=18layers=M [2]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?**lat=-33.761018lon=151.128327** zoom=18layers=Mhttp://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.761018lon=151.128327zoom=18layers=M [3]: http://www.geekosystem.com/**apple-maps-australia/http://www.geekosystem.com/apple-maps-australia/ [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Anna_Creek_stationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Creek_station [5]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/**wiki/Suburbhttp://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Suburb - __**_ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/talk-auhttp://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia
This is *exactly* what was referred to in my original email included below. *The 'official' centroid location is the middle of residential nowhere for West Pymble.* I fear this is the same when you search for Mildura in Victoria per the article that I had linked to below. Regards Darren On 20/12/12 21:49, Christopher Barham wrote: Ref West Pymble location, it's fairly simple to check for the 'official' centroid location of the suburb here: http://www.ga.gov.au/place-names/PlaceDetails.jsp?fctext=RESVfctext=SUBsubmit1=NSW73064 They have it at -33.7568, 151.129 On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:29:47 +1100, Darren Burt wrote: I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location of the [suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to West Pymble. I would have called West Pymble the shopping centre located [here][2]. [1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.756665lon=151.128885zoom=18layers=M [2]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.761018lon=151.128327zoom=18layers=M Hi I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you guys. Hope you can help me help OSM. --- Hi I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location of the [suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to West Pymble. I would have called West Pymble the shopping centre located [here][2]. I note the following with respect to Sydney: a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg California, where I would have compared many cities to be 'suburbs'. It's probably a population thing. There seems to be a trend towards more cities, (eg Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith etc) but in general usage, most places are referred to principally as 'suburbs'. b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went to town' in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg Town Hall station. This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many of the places I would have referred to as suburbs were referred to as towns. These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally expanded organically from a central point. c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the suburb, they would refer to the principal activity centre of that area. In most cases that is the main shopping or commercial area. Sometimes it might be a train station. Sometimes something else. But if you drive to the West Pymble located above, you are in the middle of a residential area. And here's where things extrapolate. **IMPORTANT** Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in Australia][3]. My West Pymble example is trivial. However, in Australia is not just a matter of inconvenience. I'd welcome any other Aussies kicking in their opinions as well. As I said, my example is trivial, but it could turn wickedly wrong on some of the cattle stations that are [24000 square kms][4] (6m acres). Centre of that (geographically) could see you 100s or 1000s of kms away from help, and be life or death. I went looking at the definition of suburb and [found][5] that it refers to the 'centre of the suburb'. It is not clear if this is meant to be the geographic centre or some other type of centre. This need clarification. Look. I'm new to this editing and everything. I am hoping to get some clarification on this to help with not just this suburb, but to provide valuable guidance for other suburbs as well. I would request an update to the wiki as well to help clarify this. Appreciate your help. [1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.756665lon=151.128885zoom=18layers=M [2]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.761018lon=151.128327zoom=18layers=M [3]: http://www.geekosystem.com/apple-maps-australia/ [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Creek_station [5]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Suburb - ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia
See the recent discussion on this list for town vs city, in the OSM sense. Can you provide a direct link or forward information on this? After being told about the maillist, I went looking for information specific for Australia, and there was only date based (monthly) archives linked. Unless I indexed the information myself, there appeared to be no way to search for information at all. Appreciate any guidance you can provide. And apologies for future questions. About to send in 3...21... Thanks Darren On 20/12/12 21:53, Ben Kelley wrote: Hi. Suburb can mean an area bounded by a gazetted boundary. There is a sense in which town is similar to suburb, in the sense of how the boundary is defined. I am pretty sure the UK is different in this regard. I don't know if West Pymble is a gazetted suburb (I think yes), but it would then have a boundary. The name you see is likely a node, possibly placed within the gazetted boundary for West Pymble, or possibly not. See the recent discussion on this list for town vs city, in the OSM sense. - Ben. On 20/12/2012 9:35 PM, Darren Burt burt.dar...@gmail.com mailto:burt.dar...@gmail.com wrote: Hi I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you guys. Hope you can help me help OSM. --- Hi I've been editing around the area, and noticed that the location of the [suburb][1] is not what I would have called a reference to West Pymble. I would have called West Pymble the shopping centre located [here][2]. I note the following with respect to Sydney: a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg California, where I would have compared many cities to be 'suburbs'. It's probably a population thing. There seems to be a trend towards more cities, (eg Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith etc) but in general usage, most places are referred to principally as 'suburbs'. b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went to town' in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg Town Hall station. This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many of the places I would have referred to as suburbs were referred to as towns. These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally expanded organically from a central point. c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the suburb, they would refer to the principal activity centre of that area. In most cases that is the main shopping or commercial area. Sometimes it might be a train station. Sometimes something else. But if you drive to the West Pymble located above, you are in the middle of a residential area. And here's where things extrapolate. **IMPORTANT** Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in Australia][3]. My West Pymble example is trivial. However, in Australia is not just a matter of inconvenience. I'd welcome any other Aussies kicking in their opinions as well. As I said, my example is trivial, but it could turn wickedly wrong on some of the cattle stations that are [24000 square kms][4] (6m acres). Centre of that (geographically) could see you 100s or 1000s of kms away from help, and be life or death. I went looking at the definition of suburb and [found][5] that it refers to the 'centre of the suburb'. It is not clear if this is meant to be the geographic centre or some other type of centre. This need clarification. Look. I'm new to this editing and everything. I am hoping to get some clarification on this to help with not just this suburb, but to provide valuable guidance for other suburbs as well. I would request an update to the wiki as well to help clarify this. Appreciate your help. [1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.756665lon=151.128885zoom=18layers=M [2]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.761018lon=151.128327zoom=18layers=M [3]: http://www.geekosystem.com/apple-maps-australia/ [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Creek_station [5]: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Suburb - ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Australia Postcodes - using AusPost database
Hi again I've been mapping around the West Pymble area and noticed that the postcode was wrong. Looking around some of the streets, they were associated with Macquarie Park which is the other side of Lane Cove River! In short, there are serious and obvious errors. So, I followed some of the links on the wiki, and found that AusPost provides post code data[1]. But one of the key aspects of the license is that it can only be provided free for non-commercial activities. Now, my basic understanding of the 'new' OSM license is that the OSM database may be used for commercial activities, which would put it in direct conflict with the Auspost database usage requirements. Can anyone confirm that this is the case? Or at least pass it on/up to some legal expertise? Regards Darren [1] https://auspost.com.au/devcentre/postcodedata/register.asp ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia
Darren Burt wrote: See the recent discussion on this list for town vs city, in the OSM sense. Can you provide a direct link or forward information on this? The list archives are here: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/ and the city thread started here: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2012-December/009710.html Cheers, Andy. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] cities changed to towns
On Thu, Dec 20, 2012 at 12:41 AM, David dban...@internode.on.net wrote: I think it might be a mistake to suggest that we don't get to have a say in how (eg) the main osm map is rendered just because we can personally render our own. Firstly, setting up to do that rendering is not trivial, nor is reconfiguring it for a different view. But mainly because we contribute to the map to make it useful for other people. Exactly. We do all have a say in how the default and other layers are presented on osm.org. And if we wish to suggest a change then suggesting such a change along with a patch to execute it stands a much better chance of adoption. Also, and this is important, making a new style is really fun. Now, i don't see anyone sponsoring the necessary server and bandwidth capabilities (maybe i am wrong?) here in Oz. So i think we should assume that the 'other people' we want to help will be looking at osm.org or at an app that has been written by someone guided by what they see at osm.org . Designing a new map style does not require massive hardware, a years-old box is just fine. That said, there is a brand new shiny tile cache server in Brisbane. So there is some 'sponsorship' in Australia now. http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/10/04/australia-server/ My point is not to discourage you by saying that your idea is unworthy. My point is to encourage you by letting you know about the tools that are already available to you, so that you can solve the problem that you see. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia Postcodes - using AusPost database
Am 20.12.2012 16:08, schrieb Darren Burt: Now, my basic understanding of the 'new' OSM license is that the OSM database may be used for commercial activities, which would put it in direct conflict with the Auspost database usage requirements. Can anyone confirm that this is the case? Or at least pass it on/up to some legal expertise? OSM data distribution licence (both old and new) has always allowed commercial usage and yes that is likely to make the AusPost data unusable for OSM. Simon ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] List search and archive web tool (was Re: Suburbs in Australia)
For list traffic and search try visiting : http://markmail.org/search/?q=city+list%3Aorg.openstreetmap.talk-au On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 02:03:28 +1100, Darren Burt wrote: SNIP Can you provide a direct link or forward information on this? After being told about the maillist, I went looking for information specific for Australia, and there was only date based (monthly) archives linked. Unless I indexed the information myself, there appeared to be no way to search for information at all. /SNIP ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] cities changed to towns
Richard, I most certainly don't disagree with with you but maybe the picture is a little incomplete ? On Thu, 2012-12-20 at 11:52 -0500, Richard Weait wrote: ... if we wish to suggest a change then suggesting such a change along with a patch to execute it stands a much better chance of adoption. https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/1447 lodged four years ago, several suggestions and examples of how it can be done. Its about rendering unsealed roads differently from the default sealed. Its a safety issue and very important in Australia. No progress. Also, and this is important, making a new style is really fun. Fun, but as I said, not easy. I have been doing so, trying to demonstrate how to deal with unsealed and 4x4 roads. My time is limited and I've made little progress. I of all people know how hard it is to get developers and sys admins to doc what they have done ! ... there is a brand new shiny tile cache server in Brisbane. http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2012/10/04/australia-server/ I believe thats a cache server, not a tile server in its own right. So it caches and delivers what already exists on (eg) osm.org. If it could deliver an Aussie view of Australia, that would be great ! That might also be a good way to trial localized styles. That would be good! My point is not to discourage you No, of course not, like I said, we agree on most. I certainly would not want to send any sort of message that I am unhappy with OSM. Far from it! David ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburbs in Australia
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:29:47 +1100 Darren Burt burt.dar...@gmail.com wrote: Hi I wrote a long question at OSm help and they referred me to you guys. Hope you can help me help OSM. --- Hi a) Cities. There are few 'cities' in comparison, to , eg California, where I would have compared many cities to be 'suburbs'. It's probably a population thing. There seems to be a trend towards more cities, (eg Sydney, Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith etc) but in general usage, most places are referred to principally as 'suburbs'. Parramatta, Bankstown, Penrith, etc retained their political status of city long after Sydney swallowed them mostly due to powerful councils clinging to their status for good or ill. In Brisbane up to perhaps a dozen Town Councils were merged (swallowed whole) with Brisbane City Council to become the Greater Brisbane City Council in the second half of the 20th century but it has been many years since 'Greater' has been used in the name. b) Towns in general are referring to country centres. If I 'went to town' in Sydney, I would be going to Sydney City centre, eg Town Hall station. This is in contrast, eg to the UK, where many of the places I would have referred to as suburbs were referred to as towns. These are probably a historical growth thing. Sydney has generally expanded organically from a central point. c) As a general definition, if somebody referred to just the suburb, they would refer to the principal activity centre of that area. In most cases that is the main shopping or commercial area. Sometimes it might be a train station. Sometimes something else. But if you drive to the West Pymble located above, you are in the middle of a residential area. And here's where things extrapolate. The suburbs of cities started as outlying farming or industrial (mining, timber getting, etc.) settlements that surrounded the cities and their map placement was based on a vague 'centre' of the built-up area. As they developed, along with transport and communications services their centre was fixed on the Post Office and/or Staging Inn. In time they became the seat of the local government area (shire). With the growth of the near-by city they gradually became swallowed by the city, losing their political status and were left as suburbs. In the case of recently created suburbs, they arise where ever the developers can obtain large parcels of farmland to bury under houses and roads and have no political history. **IMPORTANT** Please refer to this recent article about [Apple Maps in Australia][3]. My West Pymble example is trivial. However, in Australia is not just a matter of inconvenience. The Apple Maps fiasco occurred due to a failure to clarify weather they were marking a town or a shire, a dumb mistake that in Britain would be minor but in an Australian context, when combined with the absolute faith people place in computers, leads them to ignore obvious valid indicators and turn off major highways on to tracks leading nowhere. The Australian bush is unforgiving and will soon take the life of the unprepared. mick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Australia Postcodes - using AusPost database
:-( I just looked at the license you referenced and it is very, very restrictive. So no. Both the old and new OSM licenses allow commercial usage, (otherwise it would not be an open license). Some publishers if specifically and courteously asked *may* make an exception as OpenStreetMap itself is not a commercial venture. However ... Amongst other thins, the license is also limited and revocable so they could ask you at any time to stop using it without reason. The killer though is the first bullet in the read more link, no use in public databases; effectively an anti-OSM clause. Mike OSMF licensing working group On 20 Dec 2012, at 23:08, Darren Burt burt.dar...@gmail.com wrote: Hi again I've been mapping around the West Pymble area and noticed that the postcode was wrong. Looking around some of the streets, they were associated with Macquarie Park which is the other side of Lane Cove River! In short, there are serious and obvious errors. So, I followed some of the links on the wiki, and found that AusPost provides post code data[1]. But one of the key aspects of the license is that it can only be provided free for non-commercial activities. Now, my basic understanding of the 'new' OSM license is that the OSM database may be used for commercial activities, which would put it in direct conflict with the Auspost database usage requirements. Can anyone confirm that this is the case? Or at least pass it on/up to some legal expertise? Regards Darren [1] https://auspost.com.au/devcentre/postcodedata/register.asp ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
