Re: [talk-au] What A Day

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2011 13:02:14 +0100
80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> 3) (ok, three things), there is no map hosted as fosm.org at the
> moment, there are people working on rendering (such as bigtincan) and
> I'm happy to encourage such diversity as it makes the project
> stronger.  I'm trying to keep the core of fosm small and tight.  I
> don't want to create features like user dairies else I'd be accused
> of forking the community.  We all have the same goals, some people
> just want to license them differently.

So we would like a little code change and remove the 'map' link at the
top, with some text info to sharedmap.org and bigtincan
It will reduce some confusion.
Liz

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Re: [talk-au] Active Australian OSM contributors in light of CT/license changes

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 08 Jul 2011 11:05:28 -0700
Steve Coast  wrote:

> If you go look at talk@ you'll find a lot of history from the people
> who now inhabit this list. In fact, several of them have either been
> banned or moderated.
> 

big snip of trash
> 
> I've known them for a lot longer than you have it seems, and as I 
> mention they've been kicked, banned or moderated before.


I have not been kicked, banned or moderated, not on any list in my life.
Am I missing out on something here? Why am I discriminated against?

I can confirm that other mappers have received emails telling them that
"their views are well known, and don't require repeating". 
Likewise I can confirm that All Blokes is not a pseudonym of John Smith.


And to return to the topic
I'm hardly mapping anything now - since the big argument blew up I have
little interest and decided to do some other things.

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[talk-au] What A Day

[Elizabeth Dodd]

The quiet and languid mailing list of normally laid back Australians
exploded into vitriolic exchanges after a non-Australian hijacked a
thread on the list. 
A number of listees found themselves offended by rash statements and
then attempts were made to claim that white was black and black was
white.
I understand that this mail will not be read by the offending poster*,
as I would happily say that I am a friend of John Smith. I don't always
agree with him, but certainly we can discuss our differences without
the need for alcohol to keep the peace.
I am quite disturbed by the failure of the offending poster to even
follow the thread of his own argument. Sadly, I have to deal with
people like this every day, as I do see a large number of elderly and
dementing people in my job.

My biggest concern is quite different. What provoked this virtual visit
to the list? Why are rabble rousing Australians such a threat to a
world wide project? I thought that it came from our ability to think
for ourselves and make our own decisions, but the accusation was made
that we were drawn to our ways by the influence of a single Pom.

I have no recall of the offending poster appearing on the list before,
but do not claim to have searched the archives to support this
hypothesis. 
So what has caused this earthquake and corresponding tsunami?



* ie, the one who caused offence

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Re: [talk-au] ODBL and real life...

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 18:12:25 +0100
Grant Slater  wrote:

> We have people subverting our CC-BY-SA license right now!!1! *zomg*
> And they wouldn't be abusing our ODbL license in future.
> Case: UN: http://www.unitar.org/unosat-releases-new-maps-over-haiti

I viewed these maps and understand why you have made the claim that the
licence has been subverted, with no attribution given, assuming that
the finding of the displaced person camps and damaged bridges etc was
OSM volunteer work.
I've not seen this example mentioned in the LWG or Board minutes, so I
don't know when you contacted UNITAR / UNOSAT to have this clarified.
I cannot however, follow your logic that it won't happen with a
differently licensed map.

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Re: [talk-au] rationalising administrative boundaries

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 00:10:47 +1000
Mark Pulley  wrote:

> > And as they won't be pulled from fosm why should I be concerned?  
> 
> 
> Did you get out of bed on the wrong side this morning?
> 
> Not everyone here has decided to give up on OSM. I'm going to decide  
> once I see what the map looks like after changeover - in the
> meantime I'll keep mapping here.

Rudeness won't get you anywhere.
I am not permitting an irrevocable licence on my contributions. I never
was, so I didn't contribute map updates to Garmin or Sensis or Google. 

I was invited to join a CC-by-SA project, was aware of which licence
was appropriate for me at the time of joining, and will not be part of
the obscure and doubtbul licence project.

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Re: [talk-au] rationalising administrative boundaries

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:32:58 +1000
Mark Pulley  wrote:

> On 15/06/2011, at 3:15 PM, John Smith wrote:
> > The current boundaries will be removed in the near future, so if I
> > were you I wouldn't spend to much time fussing over them.
> 
> 
> Some of these boundaries have been edited to include highway=* and  
> waterway=* tags (mainly in areas with (at the time) no good
> imagery). How easy is it to get a list of these ways? Now that better
> imagery is available, 

most of those places don't have better imagery, certainly not the
places I did.
And as they won't be pulled from fosm why should I be concerned?


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Re: [talk-au] Statement from nearmap.com regarding submission of derived works from PhotoMaps to OpenStreetMap

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:12:24 +0800
James Andrewartha  wrote:



> 
> Sadly, that's not how I understand it - particularly the "terms in
> place between OSM and the individual ... at the relevant time." bit
> says to me that retrospective signing of the CTs to cover old
> contributions isn't allowed.
> 
> James Andrewartha
> 
>
the last time I read the CTs (which have several versions), there was a
clear reference to me having the rights to the data and perpetually
licensing those rights to another organisation
That would stop me signing up whether I used Yahoo! or Bing or NearMap.
Indeed it would put a query on a lot of stuff I obtained by sending out
GPS devices with random others to collect tracks.

Ben, thanks for the offer, but worded as it is I still don't find that
compatible with OSMF's terms and conditions.

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Re: [talk-au] Most insanely dissected street ?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2011 23:44:12 +1000 (EST)
"John Berkers"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> We've got a few roads around here (Narre Warren South/Lynbrook) that
> are split and not yet joined.  One such road is Glasscocks Road,
> which runs from Dandenong Frankston Road, through through Lynbrook
> and Narre Warren South to Clyde Road in Berwick.  It is currently in
> three parts, and you can visualise where it is planned to go in
> future.
> 
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-38.0687&lon=145.2707&zoom=14&layers=M
> 
> It looks like there are a few hold-out land owners that have not yet
> sold their properties for redevelopment, but as soon as they do, the
> road will get filled in.
> 
> I'm not sure about property numbering at this point.  There are
> portions of Glasscocks Road with houses on, some portions without.
> 
> Regards,
> 

when the Northern Distributor was built in Wollongong, it carved
through a number of streets.
I think Cross Street Corrimal has a number of pieces now unconnected.

For numbering absurdity - the Sturt Highway wins.
Numbers out of Adelaide increase to about 231000 after Paringa. We took
photos at about 217000.
In Vic I didn't note a house number from the driver's seat.
At Gol Gol the numbers are about 8000 and decrease until Euston, except
in each town they start again at 1 and 2 for each side of the road.
No numbers Euston to Balranald, Hay and Darlington Point.
Houses in Balranald and Hay are numbered

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Re: [talk-au] Wiki censorship

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 17 May 2011 22:53:42 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> Sugar coat it all you want, but what action did you take against
> anyone else involved?

Without wasting my time looking at the wiki
this business is as well organised as a schoolyard

Set of rules made by one group, complaints handled by same group,
prosecution handled by same group, judgement made by same group,
punishment handled by same group.

Whether something is attended or not attended is at a whim.
I still do not have an answer other than "I'm busy right now"
concerning a mapper who admitted to copying from google and whose edits
have not been reverted - a 12 month period since I first contacted the
mapper concerning their edits in Australia.

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Re: [talk-au] Nearmap badly out of date

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 14 May 2011 18:14:37 +1000
Ross  wrote:

> The consensus was that all input should have a source=tag whether
> it's from survey, nearmap, bing whatever.

There were two concepts of what source=unmentioned was.
one was Yahoo, and the other was GPS trace.

The only way forward was to encourage all mappers to state the source.
Merkaartor does this automatically if you have aerial imagery loaded.

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Re: [talk-au] Reassurance and Licensing

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 4 May 2011 20:29:22 +1000
Ian Sergeant  wrote:

> On 4/05/2011 5:18 PM, David Murn wrote:
> > Well, I have yet to hear any Australians complain about the freedom
> > of the data, other than being incompatible with the new
> > one-of-a-kind licence that OSM is wanting to use.  
> 
> I'm not objecting to freedom of data.  The comment I objected to is
> the one that said if it is good enough for the Australian government,
> then it must be good enough for all Australians, with no need to
> examine it further. 

In which case the comment is taken somewhat out of its context
The start is the ODBL faction asserting that CC-by-SA is unsuitable for
data, or proven unusable for data.
The Commonwealth of Australia has assessed licences under which to
release geographic data, and chosen initially CC-by-SA and then CC-by.
I am aware that the bureaucracy is very slow in its movements and very
conservative, and that the Commonwealth of Australia can afford as many
lawyers as it likes to examine the situation. 

My assertion is that those who know Australian copyright law, know what
changes are likely in the near future to that law (not to legal
judgements) have chosen CC licensing for geographic data, so the
assertion from ODBL camp that the CC licence is not suited to data is
proven to be false in this instance.

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Re: [talk-au] Reassurance and Licensing

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 3 May 2011 18:28:09 +0100
Grant Slater  wrote:

> On 27 April 2011 05:42, Alex (Maxious) Sadleir 
> wrote:
> > On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 8:01 AM, Grant Slater
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> Wait, why did the Australian government stop using CC-by-SA and
> >> move to CC-by? I actually wasn't aware of this, maybe because
> >> CC-by-SA adds needless restrictions and ambiguity on using the
> >> data?
> >
> > Basically yes - having to choose between the different variants was
> > causing alot of confusion to individual authors; see recommendations
> > 6.3-6.7 @
> > http://www.finance.gov.au/publications/gov20taskforcereport/chapter5.htm
> >
> >> The AU government also provides the data under other specific
> >> terms on request. Mike of LWG has made a formal request. Notes in
> >> today's LWG meeting minutes.
> > I can't see them on
> > http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Working_Group_Minutes yet 
> 
> The draft minutes are out:
> --
> Section 8...
>* Imported Dataset Licensing
>** Australia Gov allows specific licensing. In mid December 2010
> Mike wrote a formal letter to the following address but has not
> received a reply. He will follow up.
> Commonwealth Copyright Administration,
> Attorney General’s Department,
> National Circuit,
> Barton
> ACT 2600
> AUSTRALIA
> --
> Questions / comment likely best addressed to Mike on this item.
> 
> / Grant
> 

Mike and Grant obviously have zero understanding of the bureaucracy
guarding the data.
I refer them to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtEkUmYecnk
which clearly describes the length of the process.

Being realists at this end, we have the data, we accept the licence
from the Commonwealth of Australia.
Just remind yourselves that if CC-by and CC-by-SA are good enough for
our government, they are good enough for us, without spending any money
on lawyers to help us make the decision.

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[talk-au] Barrier Reef Island Geographic Offset

[Elizabeth Dodd]

Brampton Island
http://osm.org/go/vIwcP8wt-
Also saw the same for Lady Musgrave Island.

I've not made any alterations, because I do not have any idea whether
the possibly traced outline or the ABS boundaries are correct.

Liz

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Re: [talk-au] How many NearMap users do you think have accepted the new CTs and ODbL?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 2 May 2011 12:40:55 +0800
Andrew Gregory  wrote:

> Yes, it's all based on surveys where I've gone there in person. (How
> else would I get the name?)

I have been to towns already traced from Nearmap and simply got the road
names. Not been up and down every street so they are tagged 
source=nearmap
source:name=survey

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[talk-au] Comment from another user looking at sign-up screen

[Elizabeth Dodd]

It asks you to agree. It doesn't ask you to accept or decline as you
wish - and doesn't say what will happen if you decline.


" Contributor terms

Please read the agreement below and press the agree button to confirm
that you accept the terms of this agreement for your existing and
future contributions."

Then anonymous user is reading the entire agreement and finds in the
very fine print you can click accept or decline

but still doesn't say what happens if you decline



He is now reading the CTs
and finds them internally contradictory
in that (1) give non-exclusive licence 
(2) you agree not to assert your moral rights 

I don't think he will agree to the CTs.

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Re: [talk-au] How many NearMap users do you think have accepted the new CTs and ODbL?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:24:09 +1000
David Murn  wrote:

> Using my australian test extract from 21/03/2011, I found that 3390
> users have made edits in the area of interest (the Australian extract
> available on osmaustralia.org).
> 
> Of these 3390 users, 536 have used the tag source=nearmap at least
> once.
> 
> Of these 536 users, 134 have agreed to the ODbL+CTs.

In my recent foray into Victoria, I found spots which must have been
mapped from Nearmap, judging from the quality of the mapping and the
lack of street names or POIs.
I haven't done any check to see if those mappers have attributed
Nearmap on a changeset or otherwise. I believe 536 mappers is a minimum
who have used Nearmap.

And if I take 134 as the numerator, and 3390 as the denominator, then I
get 4%. 

This represents a large community who have decided that they are
staying CC-by-SA.


Some of those mappers aren't local and don't count - like stae**er who
traced parts of remote Australia from Google, admitted it and still
hasn't had any attention to his edits from the DWG, although I
pointed out that he had edited over the whole world from his armchair,
and the source of those was likely to be Google as well.
Rosscoe cleaned up Crystal Brook, I cleaned up Marree, and Halls Creek
remains polluted.

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Re: [talk-au] Reassurance and Licensing

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:17:33 +0100
Grant Slater  wrote:

> Unfortunately there are some very vocal (anonymous) members of the
> Australian community who seem intent on creating a virtual "Us vs
> Them" conflict in the community with exaggerated claims and mistruths.

We aren't anonymous.
We have names, and we do know each other.
Whether we share our names with persons outside Australia is our
business.

There is definitely a major problem with the future of OSM in Australia.
Writing nincompoop essays on this mailing list about "we are here to
help you" does not convince us otherwise.

Bluntly, 
CC-by-SA for geodata is fine here. It's good enough for our government,
it's good enough for us. (Au government now is using CC-by for data).
We believe in Share-Alike. Actually, we have been brought up to believe
in share alike and helping each other, and that might be part of the
reason you reach a brick wall on the change to a complex legal licence.

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Re: [talk-au] Tragedy of the commons...

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 12:11:29 +0100
Grant Slater  wrote:

> 
> FOSM.org is hosted on a virtual machine of hypercube provided for
> XAPI. Without any explanation I was banned from the FOSM when I stated
> this.
> 
> Regards
>  Grant
>  OSM Sysadmin team.
> 


Banned from the mailing list for OSM_Fork.
If there was no explanation you may rationalise that there was cause
and effect. They may simply be concomitant.

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Re: [talk-au] Tragedy of the commons...

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 22:18:41 +1000
"Alex (Maxious) Sadleir"  wrote:

> Also, I hear that Kiwi OSM surveyors are having just as much trouble
> convincing OSM-F that their government too has done the due diligence
> on Creative Commons for geodata:
> http://brainoff.com/weblog/2011/04/11/1635#comment-222869

the comments are now error 403

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Re: [talk-au] Does FOSM really work?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 09:58:08 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> On 25 April 2011 08:09, Kevin Sheather 
> wrote:
> > I have tried to use FOSM but with no success. I have opened an
> > account and logged in but none of the links seem to work with the
> > exception of the Attribution link that takes me back to an OSM Wiki
> > page. The Potlatch link produces a mostly blank page with not a map
> > in sight. Is it designed to operate on Windows Explorer 9?
> 
> I've only used FOSM with JOSM, I've found it a little slow in
> downloading data, but it does work for me. Although it doesn't seem to
> have the same 0.25 of a degree limit when downloading, so in rural
> areas it actually makes life easier.
> 
>
I've used with merkaartor.
But I couldn't be bothered to map right now, as I guess I would like a
fosm tile server.
When we hear back from 80n about fosm timeline we can consider setting
up au-nz tile server if needed

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Re: [talk-au] Transponders mistagged

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 22 Apr 2011 13:31:22 +1000
Gary Gallagher  wrote:

> Hi,
>I've been editing some areas of rural Victoria and I keep coming
> across communications transponders that have been mis-tagged as
> relations. in the .osm file the xml looks like this:-
> 
>timestamp='2010-05-22T23:46:04Z' uid='74617' user='JohnSmith'
> visible='true' version='2' changeset='4779256'>
> 
> 
> 
>  v='http://www.acma.gov.au/WEB/STANDARD/pc=PC_9150' />
>  v='directional' />  v='744.25' />  v='PAL' />  v='horizontal' />  v='1000' /> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> I'm not sure about some of the tags but from what I can figure out
> from the transponder proposal at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Communications_Transponder
> the  should be  v='communications_transponder' /> and the whole thing should be a
> node and not a relation. I could perhaps write an xsl script to clean
> up the individual .osm files I use but this mis-tag is all over the
> state, and perhaps Australia. Is there someone who knows how to do a
> more systemic clean up.
> 
> cheers
>Gary

The logical reason for a relation is that there are numerous parts to
the transponders at various heights and that there are several per
aerial mast / comms hut
Perhaps the wiki page needs a rewrite?

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Re: [talk-au] ABS CodePlay

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 16:02:52 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> On 16 April 2011 15:56, Elizabeth Dodd  wrote:
> > On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:21:59 +1000
> > John Smith  wrote:
> >
> >> An Australian Bureau of Statistics initiative to help drive
> >> collaboration between students, developers and national and
> >> international statistical agencies.
> >>
> >> http://data.gov.au/2770/contest-abs-codeplay/
> >>
> >>
> > that link is to a comment spot rather than to information
> > have you got another link?
> 
> I was hoping the person that posted previous comments on ABS data
> would be able to comment further, but that came through on RSS...

http://www.codeplay.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/corporate.nsf/home/codeplay

i s'pose it was find-it-your-b*y-self time

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Re: [talk-au] ABS CodePlay

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 16 Apr 2011 15:21:59 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> An Australian Bureau of Statistics initiative to help drive
> collaboration between students, developers and national and
> international statistical agencies.
> 
> http://data.gov.au/2770/contest-abs-codeplay/
> 
>
that link is to a comment spot rather than to information
have you got another link?

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[talk-au] Fw: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.

[Elizabeth Dodd]

Someone local to this guy want to speak with him?

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 17:58:25 -0700
From: Steve Coast 
To: t...@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Hoping you can point me in the right
direction.




 Original Message 
Subject:Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.
Date:   Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:00:51 +1000
From:   R Lynch 
To: Steve Coast 



Sorry yes thank you

Sent from my iPhone

On 12/04/2011, at 8:10 AM, Steve Coast mailto:st...@asklater.com>> wrote:

> you mailed the OSMF board which isn't set up or designed to help with 
> what you want, we have mailing lists with people who can help you 
> though, so I'm offering to connect you to them
>
> On 4/11/2011 3:11 PM, R Lynch wrote:
>> Steve,
>>
>> Sorry im lost, What do you mean mailing list?
>>
>> Robert
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On 12/04/2011, at 7:40 AM, Steve Coast > > wrote:
>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> Can I forward this to our mailing lists?
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>> On 4/10/2011 7:44 PM, Robert Lynch wrote:

 Hi Steve,

 My name is Robert Lynch and I am the owner of a few small
 transport companies in Australia. Over the past 12 months I have
 been building a new transport, logistics and recruitment software
 to Launch in Australia. As part of this software we are looking
 for routing solutions and direct guidance for the drivers and a
 few other unique developments for this industry.

 Currently there is nothing like this in the market place and can
 be quickly replicated for other areas around the world.

 What i would like to do is speak with someone to see how we can 
 partner up through a Joint venture or any other means.

 I hope to hear from you soon

 *_Robert F. Lynch_*

 *Head office:   1300 400 450*

 *Direct line:  (02) 8093-1207*

 *Fax:(02) 8093-1243*

 *Mobile:0403 753 371*

 

 */PART OF THE DYNAMIC GROUP OF COMPANIES/*

 We now do Point-to-Point in Sydney:

 *www.dynamicexpress.com.au;* 

 Formally All Purpose Messengers; Delivering Excellent since
 1954*/__/*

 This email and any attached files are confidential. They are 
 intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom 
 they are addressed. If you have received this email in error, 
 please notify the sender by return email, and delete the original.

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 any liability for any damage caused by this email or attachments


 



  
  


 Original Message 

  

  Subject: 
  Re: Hoping you can point me in the right direction.


  Date: 
  Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:00:51 +1000


  From: 
  R Lynch 


  To: 
  Steve Coast 

  



Sorry yes thank you
  
  Sent from my iPhone

  On 12/04/2011, at 8:10 AM, Steve Coast 
  wrote:
  


   you mailed the OSMF board which isn't set up or designed to
help with what you want, we have mailing lists with people who
can help you though, so I'm offering to connect you to them

On 4/11/2011 3:11 PM, R Lynch wrote:

  Steve,
  
  
  Sorry im lost, What

  do you mean mailing list?
  

  Robert
  
  
  

Sent from my iPhone
  
On 12/04/2011, at 7:40 AM, Steve Coast 

wrote:

  
  
 Robert
  
  Can I forward this to our mailing lists?
  
  Steve
  
  On 4/10/2011 7:44 PM, Robert Lynch wrote:
  



  Hi Steve,
   
  My name is Robert Lynch and I am
the owner of a few small transport companies in
Australia. Over the past 12 months I have been
building a new transport, logistics and recruitment
software to Launch in Australia. As part of this
software we are looking for routing solutions and
direct guidance for the drivers and a few other
unique developments for this industry.
   
  Currently there is nothing like
this in the mar

Re: [talk-au] How to tag reaches (segments of a waterway)?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 13:54:53 +1000
Elizabeth Dodd  wrote:

> Have we got some other word for the smaller part of the waterway?

Just checking my ancient brain synapses with some help from online
dictionaries
reach [intransitive verb] 5.  Nautical To sail with the wind abeam.
reach [noun] 6.  Nautical The tack of a sailing vessel with the wind
abeam.
 7. The stretch of water visible between bends in a river or
channel.

taken from http://www.thefreedictionary.com/reach

so a river in English can consist of bends and reaches



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Re: [talk-au] How to tag reaches (segments of a waterway)?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 10 Apr 2011 13:23:57 +1000
{withheld}  wrote:

> Bearing in mind "reach" is also the nautical term for a tack, is it
> worth considering Andrew's source map might be documenting the lines
> of sailing between navigation markers (or indeed landmarks) which are
> no longer even well-known? [Disclaimer: I-am-not-a-sailor.] They may
> not even document current-day navigation channels, if that part of
> the river required dredging to keep such open in the past.
> 
> In other words I am wondering whether it might be best to add the new
> names completely independently of both the waterway and the
> administrative boundary. Maybe create a tag like
> "waterway:navigation", perhaps for the new feature, perhaps?
> 
> Justification for independence: these things are straight segments
> which rationalise a natural (i.e. curved) waterway for boating
> purposes... therefore are not the waterway itself. Similar argument
> for them not being the administrative layer (although they might be -
> can this be checked in any way?)
> 
> My 2c.

Stuck in my mind is "Madmen's Bend" at Hay, which refers to a part of
the river, and it is not a /reach/, but also warrants its name
recording as the sign nearby is recording the name.
http://billiau.net/zoph/photo.php?album_id=144&_order=date&_off=1246

Have we got some other word for the smaller part of the waterway?

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Re: [talk-au] How to tag reaches (segments of a waterway)?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 9 Apr 2011 18:22:49 +1000
Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> I would like to map some named reaches ("straight portion of a stream
> or river, as from one turn to another;") part of a major river.
> 
> The river (e.g.
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-33.50134&lon=150.8778&zoom=15&layers=M
> ) currently has both a riverbank area drawn, and a way down the middle
> of the river. To make things even more complicated, the way running
> down the middle of the river has both waterway tags and administrative
> boundary tags.
> 
> I'm thinking the ideal way to map this (reaches + river + admin
> boundary) would be split the way into segments for each reach, tag
> each segment as waterway=reach, name=Foo Reach, then collect up the
> river segments into a relation which contains waterway=river, name=Bar
> River, and just leave the riverbank area as is. Not sure what to do
> with the admin boundary tags though.
> 
> I'm not sure what's best though. Any thoughts? Thanks.
> 

I'd be looking at another word for "reach". I'm not making any
suggestions, but it isn't a simple English term, and using difficult
terms makes the cross-language stuff hard.

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Re: [talk-au] Wiki + Data Sources + Licensing Categories

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 8 Apr 2011 20:47:58 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> On 8 April 2011 16:58, Ian Sergeant  wrote:
> > Despite your attempts to sidetrack this discussion from the your
> > data import to some wider OSM licencing issue, I won't be
> > sidetracked here.  
> 
> The problem is no one seems to want to answer the hard questions,
> everyone that should be dealing with these issues just seem to want to
> ignore them and hope they stopped being asked. I don't wish to seem to
> be picking on you personally, however someone needs to man up and take
> responsibility for their choices or change where OSM-F is headed if
> the positions are unsupportable with facts.

Let's summarise some very important questions

(1) What is the point at which non-ODbL data will be removed? Is it
related to number of accounts signed up? Is it related to percentage
loss of data?
(2) Why can't we go with CC-by-SA 3.0? And if not suitable, why can't
we make CC-by-SA 4.0 suitable?

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Re: [talk-au] Wiki + Data Sources + Licensing Categories

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 8 Apr 2011 16:33:57 +1000


> >> Please list sources for this comment, because as far as I
> >> understand it there is no further appeals on the matter currently
> >> pending.  
> >
> > http://www.smh.com.au/business/directories-fight-to-go-to-high-court-20110113-19pw2.html
> >   

that comment is that Telstra is asking for special leave to appeal
after that is decided in court then another stage would be to appeal
however the High Court has to accept the request to have an appeal first


perhaps you could learn to read exactly what it says before you
continue bluffing?

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Re: [talk-au] Wiki + Data Sources + Licensing Categories

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 8 Apr 2011 16:58:04 +1000
Ian Sergeant  wrote:

> If you still consider importing this data without permission was in
> the best interest of the project, I'm afraid we are going to have to
> agree to disagree.  Others can make up their own mind.

and we have had to edit the data and correct it, so what is in the OSM
database is not what "we" got from BP or Shell

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Re: [talk-au] Wiki + Data Sources + Licensing Categories

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 8 Apr 2011 10:40:15 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> On 8 April 2011 09:28, Ian Sergeant  wrote:
> > If the data owner doesn't grant permission under an acceptable
> > licence then we shouldn't relying on one interpretation of very
> > recent Australian case.  Especially since there are other areas of
> > law that may come into play here.  
> 
> Actually the court case was a few years ago I think, this was an
> appeal against the earlier ruling.

The Court system has affirmed the original decision.
Copyright (Au) depends on thinking about the input, and cannot be
derived from machine generated data. 

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Re: [talk-au] Wiki + Data Sources + Licensing Categories

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2011 23:27:57 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> Also the locations have been fixed for numerous locations so if you
> ever get in contact with anyone please let them know about OSM having
> more accurate data than they offer, I think 30km out is still the
> worst case.

The locations have had to be corrected in almost every case that I have
passed by, and the Victorian Police Stations also.

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: [OSM-dev] To OSM editor authors

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 08 Apr 2011 07:30:29 +1000
{withheld}  wrote:

> >> Whilst I agree / commiserate with your basic point (been there;
> >> done that; spent the fuel), don't you still have the raw traces
> >> from your device? I certainly do, and consider at no point have I
> >> ever given up my rights to them.  
> > 
> > I couldn't see any point in keeping those traces at the time, so a
> > couple of years OSM work of mine will be lost to OSM.  
> 
> That is annoying. I feel for you; as I nearly did the same thing; and
> in fact have lost some information as well,but obviously not quite so
> severely.

I have the vast majority of mine. I removed them from OSM already, and
have them roughly sorted by year. 

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: [OSM-dev] To OSM editor authors

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 04:47:39 -0700 (PDT)
All Blokes  wrote:

> I was very keen and learning ...had done a few edits not many
> but I was planning on getting right into it. 
> 
> I don't agree with the new licensing and have just been sitting on
> the side reading. 
> 

It's sad that this is happening
A vibrant aussie community has gone down the drain within the last 12
months.
I have spent 3 1/2 years (nearly) adding big tracts of eastern
australia to the osm map, and now think I will do something else with
my spare time.

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: [OSM-dev] To OSM editor authors ...

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2011 11:53:02 +1000
Leon Kernan  wrote:

> >
> >
> >
> > Supposedly it sends you to this flippant page if you decline the CT:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributor_Terms_Declined
> >
> >
> >
> I think the lolcat picture on that page tells us exactly what they
> think of those of us that won't / can 't / don't want to accept their
> terms.
> 
> Certainly helps give the impression of a professional organisation...
> (not)

I don't see a lolcat on that page, was it on another page?
Certainly the lolcat on the front page of the osm wiki makes me wonder
about the IQ of the page writers

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: [OpenStreetMap] OpenStreetMap is changing the licence

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2011 11:48:55 +1000
Leon Kernan  wrote:

> >
> >
> > More importantly is it a official OSMF or semi-official LWG email,
> > or just some pro-ODbL people spamming everyone?
> >
> >  
> Pretty sure it's the last one. I received it a few weeks back, even
> through i'd put a note on my OSM user page saying i didn't want it.
> 
> I'm sure i've seen something on the OSM wiki about it, and there is
> the following on the top right of the odbl.de page:

i'm sure its spam, and I haven't received it yet, so I can't give the
sender the forks in a virtual manner

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Re: [talk-au] Nearmap

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2011 08:19:39 +0100
Grant Slater  wrote:

> On 7 April 2011 06:58, Ian Sergeant  wrote:
> > On 7 April 2011 12:57, David Murn  wrote:
> >
> >> If the Australian issue is so important, as others have suggested
> >> why isnt OSMF seeking to make a rapid agreement with NearMap as
> >> was done with Bing?
> >
> > This really needs to be done.
> >
> > Is wonder if this is just due to a shortage of time that the LWG
> > hasn't included this as yet?
> >
> 
> Absolutely and it is a important to LWG too. We have had discussions
> with NearMap in the past. Last discussion with NearMap was passing the
> revised Contributor Terms 1.2.4 to NearMap for their legal review, we
> are currently waiting on them.
> 
> Regards
>  Grant
>  LWG Member.
> 
>
Grant, that sounds like 
"here are the terms, take it or shove it"
you may or may not understand the vernacular, we will
but I don't see any evidence of cooperatively trying to reach a
solution.

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: [OSM-dev] To OSM editor authors ...

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 19:31:53 +1000
John Smith  didn't write: (Michael Collinson
did)

> For clarity:
> 
> - This will only affect (77,000) contributors who registered before
> May 2010 and who have not accepted the new terms as part of the
> voluntary re-licensing program.

those who see a big hole in the numbers
total contributors at May 2010 ~250,000
Those who have signed up ~9,000
Those who have not signed up ~77,000

the gap I guess refers to accounts which have been completely idle and
will be prevented from editing
(source, LWG minutes 5th April 2011)

I still have trouble understanding how 9,000 of 86,000 is a large
majority.
Those who signed up after May 2010 got no option, so they can't be
construed as supporting either side.

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Re: [talk-au] Experimental OSM Mapnik/NearMap Shaded Relief of Sydney

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2011 20:35:23 +1100
Andrew Harvey  wrote:

> I thought I should post this link in case it is of interest:
> http://andrew.liway.net/nearmap-osmmapnik-shaded.html
> 
> It is a slippy map of the OSM mapnik rendering combined with NearMap
> shaded relief tiles for Sydney (yes, it's probably in violation of the
> ShareAlike component of the OSM Mapnik render, but anyway...).
> 
>

Is it a Derived Work or a Produced Work?

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[talk-au] GPS jamming

[Elizabeth Dodd]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/11/3161861.htm

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[talk-au] Need a laff?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

If you need a laff, try the wiki page on countryside
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Countryside

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Re: [talk-au] temp name change

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 21 Feb 2011 07:47:08 +1100
Jim Croft  wrote:

> Apparently from Yorkeshire,
> "All the world is queer save thee and me, and even thou art a little
> queer." -- Robert Owen, 1828
> 
> This is how my dad used to quote it.
> 
> Jim
> 
> Nov 26 03, 6:19 PM
> 
> 
> On Monday, February 21, 2011, Elizabeth Dodd 
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:21:49 +1100
> > Steve Bennett  wrote:
> >
> >> Just out of curiosity, am I the only normal person on this email
> >> list?
> >>
> >> Steve
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > "everyone's odd except thee and me and even then i'm worried about
> > thee"
> >
> > sorry i can't recall the exact words of the quote nor do i know the
> > original source
> >
>
thanks Jim


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Re: [talk-au] temp name change

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:21:49 +1100
Steve Bennett  wrote:

> Just out of curiosity, am I the only normal person on this email list?
> 
> Steve
> 



"everyone's odd except thee and me and even then i'm worried about thee"

sorry i can't recall the exact words of the quote nor do i know the
original source

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Re: [talk-au] Unsuitable for caravans

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:56:03 +1100
Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 7:25 PM, John Smith
>  wrote:
> > Nope I meant what I said, access:caravan=* same with access:4wd=*
> 
> As I understand it, foot, motorcar, bicycle, hgv etc are all
> considered subtags of the access tag. So, for consistency, it would be
> caravan=no, just like it's foot=no, motorcar=no...
> 
> Steve
> 
>
a complete subtag like caravan=no
will cause misunderstandings with those highway tags which mark a
cycleway as part of the way
sample 
highway=secondary
cycleway=lane
caravan=no

will the caravan=no belong on the cycleway or will it belong on the
main way?

however
highway=secondary
cycleway=lane
access:highway:caravan=maybe
would be clear.

This discussion just informs us that the access tagging system has
faults.

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Re: [talk-au] Unsuitable for caravans

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:56:03 +1100
Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 7:25 PM, John Smith
>  wrote:
> > Nope I meant what I said, access:caravan=* same with access:4wd=*
> 
> As I understand it, foot, motorcar, bicycle, hgv etc are all
> considered subtags of the access tag. So, for consistency, it would be
> caravan=no, just like it's foot=no, motorcar=no...
> 
> Steve
> 
>
Inconsistent tagging is what you have just described
compare
source:name=
source:ele=
source=

 and

access= yes / no / muddle
foot=no
car=yes
caravan:max_camels=10

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[talk-au] temp name change

[Elizabeth Dodd]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/02/18/3142067.htm
anyone fixing this on the map?

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Re: [talk-au] Relicensing per changeset?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:07:48 +1100
David Murn  wrote:

> On Wed, 2011-02-16 at 00:04 +, David Groom wrote:
> > I just want to draw attention to the survey at 
> > http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/WFVK6XS
> > , the link was mentionedn Richard Weait's email to this list on 1
> > Feb, but I have to admit that I missed it the first time I read his
> > posting
> 
> Out of interest, who runs this survey and who is (or when will we be)
> allowed to know the results?
> 
> David
> 

and can I do it 20 times as "Jane Smith"? 
seeing it asks for a name

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[talk-au] time change on bing

[Elizabeth Dodd]

obvious time change between two sets of photos here

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=-31.607381813961595~143.33909511566418&lvl=17&dir=0&sty=h&where1=Wilcannia%2C%20NSW&q=Wilcannia%20NSW

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Re: [talk-au] Relicensing per changeset?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 13:45:52 -0500
Richard Weait  wrote:

> A small thing perhaps, but the next step requested by the board prior
> to 31 March is Phase 3, which adds the "decline" option to the current
> accept option.  I expect that the improved CTs (1.2.4) will be
> available at the same time, pending the required translations.  March
> 31 is not a "switch over" date,
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Database_License/Implementation_Plan

In that case I've missed some meeting minutes, because that is not what
I last read.
Mushroom theory confirmed.

My understanding (shared by some others) was that Phase 3 was to start
1st April 2011, that is if not accepting new terms, no editing. the
Implementation Plan referenced above doesn't seem to have "adding the
Decline button" in it, but it is an important step.

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Re: [talk-au] Relicensing per changeset?

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 5 Feb 2011 13:30:47 +0800
Andrew Gregory  wrote:

> On 3 February 2011 08:38, Stephen Hope  wrote:
> 
> > On 3 February 2011 09:28, David Murn 
> > wrote:
> > > I also wonder how this works, using your example, if the user had
> > > entered street names and then another user came along and fixed a
> > > spelling mistake in one which they had surveyed themselves.  When
> > > the changeset is relicenced, you have v1 of an object under a
> > > non-compatible licence, and v2 is compatible, so what happens to
> > > the object?
> >
> > It goes away.  All objects get rolled back to the last valid state
> > that have no unlicensed edits before them.  So any object where v1
> > is unlicensed is gone, no matter how many changes have been done to
> > it since.
> >
> 
> Surely that can't be correct? For example, I've surveyed an awful lot
> of the Perth northern suburbs, but I started off by tracing Nearmap
> imagery. My understanding is that Nearmap haven't agreed to the new
> licensing but nevertheless I've since personally surveyed the
> streets, corrected alignments, added names and changed
> "source=nearmap" to "source=survey".
> 
> I would understand if data and records of the original
> "source=nearmap" disappeared with the license change, but the
> subsequent "source=survey" edits would be able to be kept? Dropping
> data simply because at one time it was in an incompatible-license
> state but is now no longer sounds incredibly destructive to me.
> 
> Is what's going to happen documented anywhere? I've had a poke around
> the wiki, but can't see anything relevant to how the data is being
> handled.
> 

There is no easy answer for this. How does one sort out exactly what
has been surveyed and what is traced?
Then we still aren't sure if you can agree to the contributor terms
yet, having used NearMap at all - the CTs are still being revised, and
until there is some 'final' version, again there is no answer.

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[talk-au] i presume university western sydney

[Elizabeth Dodd]

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Christian%20Nold/diary/12968

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: HOT for Cyclone Yasi

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Thu, 3 Feb 2011 12:52:28 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> Are you all, or others in the Australian community, wanting to
> coordinate response to Cyclone Yasi? What are the mapping needs if
> any?
> -Mikel

I don't think anyone has a clue at present
It will remain very cloudy for some days yet, so no possibility of
satellite imaging to check for damaged buildings etc

>From my household one will be leaving tomorrow for emergency work and
be away for the week coming. Not likely to have contact with the top of
the emergency hierarchy during this period, just work on the ground. 

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Re: [talk-au] waterway=coastline

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 2 Feb 2011 21:36:24 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> > What do you mean by canal? I thought they were saltwater...hence,
> > waterway=coastline is ok?  
> 
> Should we tag salt lakes as coastline too using that logic?

Even lake eyre, lake frome

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Re: [talk-au] Emergency Markers

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 11:21:08 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> What about the national parks mentioned previously that don't actually
> have paths to prevent people from creating goat tracks?

Someone must have got in there with the sign, somehow.

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Re: [talk-au] Emergency Markers

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 1 Feb 2011 10:37:15 +1100
Luke Woolley  wrote:

>  Doesn't make sense putting emergency markers in places where
> emergency vehicles can't get access.
why not?
just because the emergency workers have to walk?

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Re: [talk-au] JOSM filtering image/map tile URLs

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 16:00:11 -0800 (PST)
Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> that P2 does indeed prevent you from using any URL with the string
> "google" in it.

I like Merkaartor and JOSM, and have not seen any need yet to try
Potlatch2.

I could set up a proxy - on my squid to rewrite URL
'forbidden_image' to 'google' if I wanted.

However I have zero interest in using google imagery, so I won't.

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Re: [talk-au] JOSM filtering image/map tile URLs

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:00:08 -0500
Richard Weait  wrote:

> For JOSM, the Java OpenStreetMap editor?  Really?  That's what you
> are asking?
> 
> from josm.openstreetmap.de
> 
> "Java OpenStreetMap Editor ¶
> /svn/trunk/images/logo.png
> JOSM is an editor for  OpenStreetMap (OSM) written in  Java 1.6. "
> 
> Which seems to declare the core interest of the JOSM project pretty
> clearly.

If you wade through the whole conversation on the josm-dev mailing list
you would be aware that Dirk uses it for other data and is encouraging
others in his work life to do the same.

Projects do change focus from their original aims, or expand their
uses, and no one ever updates the "mission statement" bar changing the
version number.

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Re: [talk-au] Victorian Coastline

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:01:46 +0800
4x4falcon  wrote:

> What was the source of this if you don't mind me asking as I'm sure 
> Steve will.

Me
I said that boundaries stay put whether they are right or wrong
don't move with roads moving
don't move if the coastline erodes.

too late at night to look for the proof :)

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Re: [talk-au] BYO restaurants

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 16:19:45 +
SomeoneElse  wrote:

> On 26/01/2011 16:12, David Murn wrote:
> > The only issue I would have, is with the spelling of licence. Steve 
> > suggested licensed but as OSM is traditionally British English, 
> > shouldnt licenced=yes/no be used?
> > taginfo shows licenced=yes has 2 usages where licensed=yes has 9,
> > so its early enough to still rectify the discrepencies.
> >
> >
> 
> In British English licence = noun; license=verb, I believe:
> 
> http://www.future-perfect.co.uk/grammartips/grammar-tip-license-licence.asp
> 
> so "licensed=yes" is correct I think?  In American English it's 
> "license" for both I believe.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 

We are already using licensed_club because that is exactly how it is in
Au English
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Licensed_Club

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Re: [talk-au] BYO restaurants

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:58:04 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> On 26 January 2011 09:21, David Murn  wrote:
> > Upon doing a bit of research, the exact meaning varies depending on
> > where you are.  In [1]New York for example, a BYO establishment MUST
> > have a liquor license.  In [2]Victoria, a BYO license (actually a
> > permit) is for places that dont have a liquor license.
> 
> So what was your conclusion?
> 
Drink more or less?

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Re: [talk-au] Massive flooding

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:35:58 +1100
Nick Hocking  wrote:

> JohnSmith wrote
> 
> "I originally cc'd my original email to the HOT list as well, however
> it would see they doesn't bother trying to help unless you are a 3rd
> world country with a high chance of PR..."
> 
> Given the incessant trolling and cyber-stalking of OSM by some vocal
> Australians, I'd be suprised if anyone else
> in OSMWorld gave tuppance for what happens in Australia.

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there's a link just there, you are able to use it to unsubscribe

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Re: [talk-au] Brisbane Flooding on NearMap

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 07:57:49 +0100
"waldo000...@gmail.com"  wrote:

> On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 6:02 AM, Elizabeth Dodd 
> wrote:
> >
> > > > flood_prone=yes
> > >
> > > Need to expand it a little to cover how often that level is
> > > likely to occur etc and/or height above the normal river level.
> >
> > Jan 2010 added to it somehow would be adequate?
> 
> I think it would be better to describe the flood by a height, rather
> than by a date. This way, it is generalisable to future floods.
> 
> Something like:
> flood_prone=yes
> flood_prone:height=*
> 
> Obviously, we'd need to carefully define "height" (is it normally with
> respect to some marker, or with respect to sea level, etc.?) Anyway,
> the idea is that this field would describe under what conditions the
> area (or way) is flood prone.

flood markers exist at particular points but are subject to being moved
you can find references on bom.gov.au to some river heights not being
at the same point as the historical flood marker
so you can say that this is Xmetres on the Brisbane City Gauge
flood_prone:height=* sounds good but we don't have that much data - we
can mark the edge as being inundated at X+4.3metres but we don't have
enough data to know where the edge is at X+2 metres (etc)
there are generalised standards avail off BOM where floods are
major:moderate:minor
and those terms are defined here
http://www.bom.gov.au/hydro/flood/flooding.shtml#definitions_terminology

so i suggest we make an effort to fit in with that established
terminology

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Re: [talk-au] Looks like Nearmap is gone from JOSM slippymap plugin

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 13:03:10 +0800
Ben Last  wrote:

> Er... there's lots!  Most of the FairFax media sites picked up the
> Sydney Morning Herald article yesterday, 
> 
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/flood-devastation-mapped-by-highres-sky-cams-20110114-19qer.html

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Re: [talk-au] Brisbane Flooding on NearMap

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 16:04:01 +1100
Elizabeth Dodd  wrote:

> 
> > 
> > ps. does anyone have a time stamp for exactly when the flood reached
> > peak height?
> 
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/infographics/qld-floods/height.htm
> 
> ___
>
taken from this data
http://www.bom.gov.au/fwo/IDQ65389/IDQ65389.540198.tbl.shtml
(read now, it has rolling expiry)

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Re: [talk-au] Brisbane Flooding on NearMap

[Elizabeth Dodd]

> 
> ps. does anyone have a time stamp for exactly when the flood reached
> peak height?


http://www.abc.net.au/news/infographics/qld-floods/height.htm

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Re: [talk-au] Brisbane Flooding on NearMap

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:55:14 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> On 15 January 2011 12:52, 4x4falcon  wrote:
> >>
> >> I have no idea what to tag it, I'm sure you'll work something out.
> >>
> >>
> >> Brendan
> >
> >
> > flood_prone=yes
> 
> Need to expand it a little to cover how often that level is likely to
> occur etc and/or height above the normal river level.
> 
> ___

Jan 2010 added to it somehow would be adequate?

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Re: [talk-au] Looks like Nearmap is gone from JOSM slippymap plugin

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:29:01 +0800
Ben Last  wrote:

> Also: we're being linked like crazy from several major media sources,
> so if you can ensure you have a decent-size browser cache and avoid
> trying to spider down large areas of tiles, that'd be very helpful in
> reducing the load (currently around 3x the peak we saw during the WA
> Telethon competition, and climbing).

that sounds great Ben, please tell us more about the interest in your
business

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Re: [talk-au] Victorian Coastline

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 14 Jan 2011 22:46:08 +1030
"Markus_g"  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Someone has added coastline to the administration boundaries from the
> SA border to Port Philip Bay and removed the old coastline. There
> edit comment was "removed malformed Victorian/SE SA coastlines and
> added 'coastline' tag to administrative boundaries to form accurate
> coastlines" 
> 
> The direction of the coastline is mostly now reversed. I am planning
> to reverse the coastline direction and repair the Conservation Park
> at the SA/Vic boarder unless someone beats me to it. 
> 
> Markus_g
> 

It would be best that the coastline was duplicated, and separate from
the admin boundary
I spent some hours on a wet weekend doing this for 2 major rivers, and
just like the mentioned coastline, directions weren't always right, and
one river had a gap in it which I closed.

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Re: [talk-au] Australia Post finds new routes around floods

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:35:06 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> Flooding has disrupted mail deliveries in Queensland.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/01/05/3106734.htm
> 
> I guess it might be useful after all to tag flood prone roads:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:flood_prone
> 

so you just download Qld and tag the lot??

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Re: [talk-au] Locations of underground creeks

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 20:10:23 +1100
Elizabeth Dodd  wrote:

> > >> Yer, but GPS's don't work underground.  
> > >
> > > AGPS does...
> > >  
> > 
> > or rather, some forms of AGPS do...
> >   
> I'm waiting for this to actually become available
> https://www.eglobaldigitalcameras.com.au/casio-exilim-ex-h20g-digital-camera.html
> because it has GPS, INS and the firmware update will record gps tracks

I didn't mention that I'm not volunteering for the job.

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Re: [talk-au] Locations of underground creeks

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 19:04:58 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> On 4 January 2011 19:04, John Smith  wrote:
> > On 4 January 2011 15:51, Steve Bennett  wrote:
> >> Yer, but GPS's don't work underground.
> >
> > AGPS does...
> >
> 
> or rather, some forms of AGPS do...
> 
I'm waiting for this to actually become available
https://www.eglobaldigitalcameras.com.au/casio-exilim-ex-h20g-digital-camera.html
because it has GPS, INS and the firmware update will record gps tracks

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Re: [talk-au] Locations of underground creeks

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 16:51:54 +1100
Steve Bennett  wrote:

> Yer, but GPS's don't work underground.

you need an INS

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Re: [talk-au] highway shields: AU

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 15:15:58 -0500
Richard Weait  wrote:

> If, in your future highway editing, you could update your network tags
> to the AU_NH, AU_NR, etc. form, that will mean that Australian shields
> will continue to render after I clean up the Dirty Hack(r). ;-)

we now put network tags in relations so another line in the relation
would be appropriate

but thanks for making highway shields

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[talk-au] Murray and Murrumbidgee rivers and anabranches

[Elizabeth Dodd]

I've been working on the Murray anabranches and the Murrumbidgee River
so far this year.
Filling in gaps and putting the flow in an appropriate direction and
disentangling from the admin boundaries.

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Re: [talk-au] Suitable Garmin GPS Devices

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 3 Jan 2011 11:22:00 +1100
Eraina & Richard Jenkins  wrote:

> My T_m-T_m GPS is over two years old ... and its maps are showing some
> errors. I was looking at buying a new set of maps ... but if I can get
> them for my model, they will cost almost as much as a new gps!!
> 
> Some friends have told me that a Garvin GPS is the way to go ...
> because I can then take advantage of the OSM work done by others ...
> and keep my maps up to date.  I can even contribute by inputting data
> from places I visit on my winter travels up the north coast!  
> 
> Accepting this, are there any Garvin GPS that will not support OSM ...
> i.e. that I should stay away from.  This buying of commercial maps
> every couple of years is a pain!!  Maybe I should scan the discount
> stores for a Garvin ... now ... during the after-Xmas sales??  
> 
> Maybe if you have specific advice you could email me direct.  I don't
> want to start a flame-war ... over different brands of GPS!  I use my
> GPS in the car/motorhome ... so a 4.5in screen would be a plus.  The
> windscreen in our truck is a metre from my eyes! 
> 
> Thanks for any help...
> 
> Richard 
> 

I am using routable maps for Garmin from

http://osmaustralia.org/garminroute.php

and these work OK in my Garmin Oregon. I have not tested them in the
Garmin car sat-nav at all, which is a 2007 model for which I have no
new maps since 2008.

On being able to add to the data - note that there is a split in the
community over the new licence for OSM and some substantial
contributors to the Australian map will provide no more data to OSM
after April Fool's Day.
We will have alternate data sources by then.

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Re: [talk-au] [Fwd: [OpenStreetMap] Re: Roundabouts]

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 17:08:42 +1000
John Smith  wrote:

> Someone else was starting a new thread for every reply because they
> didn't want to recieve the emails, but instead view replies via the
> web archives, I was trying to help them and myself by suggesting other
> ways of doing things since it kept screwing up threading, I received a
> similar response but I stuck with it and eventually came up with a
> suggestion that the person liked better than web archives and in the
> end I got a thank you for sticking with it email...
> 
> On 31 December 2010 17:02,   wrote:
> > Interesting attitude by some people when your just trying to help.
> >
> > Cheers
> > Ross

well congrats on your persistence JS

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Re: [talk-au] "airports" import

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 16:45:19 +1100
Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Elizabeth Dodd 
> wrote:
> > we mark them all with a 'fixme'
> 
> Sounds good to me.
> 
> Steve

so do we have a consensus and a volunteer?

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Re: [talk-au] "airports" import

[Elizabeth Dodd]

> Dear god.
> 1) You, and about a thousand other people have pointed this out.
> 2) Clearly the person involved didn't know this, and is now doing the
> right thing.
> 3) Why complain *here* about it?
> 
> Steve

could you reduce the exaggeration?
I don't see anything on talk or tagging about things being sorted out
and asked here if someone was interested in actually removing stuff from
Au.

I assume that there are a few thousand of these nodes.
Either we remove them or we mark them all with a 'fixme'



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Re: [talk-au] "airports" import

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Wed, 29 Dec 2010 09:00:45 +1000
"Kevin & Ruth Sheather"  wrote:

> As a regular traveller in remote Australia, I can see advantage for
> map users in having cattle station air strips in OSM. Quite apart
> from RFDS operations, there is a progressive merging of tourism and
> agriculture. To have strips shown in OSM is of value to light
> aircraft owners planning their trip. More visitors will travel to
> tourist cattle stations as time goes on. I don't think you can make a
> comparison with back yard pools and tennis courts at all.
> 
> Kevin

Airstrip?
or Airport?

these are not distinguished, and those I have been able to place were
not correctly placed
to me that is useless information
Some could be placed from aerial imagery but others not so,
particularly when the airstrip and the racecourse share the same space
eg Ardlethan NSW currently, and Quamby Qld from memory

Correctly tagged and placed, this could have been useful information.
However right now it is very poor quality.

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Re: [talk-au] "airports" import

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 22:17:33 +1100
Steve Bennett  wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 8:12 PM, John Smith
>  wrote:
> > Many small towns in regional areas have (or at least had) airstrips
> > that are public, I'm guessing most of the ones Liz is referring to
> > are private.
> 
> Are private airstrips not wanted? It's not hard to imagine situations
> where it would be useful information.
> 
> Steve

IF they are in the right place, and IF they are appropriately tagged.
I couldn't find a hierarchy of tags for airports / airstrips in the wiki
These sort of things are worked out before import when people discuss
things beforehand.

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Re: [talk-au] "airports" import

[Elizabeth Dodd]

> We have a set of rules or guidelines about importing stuff
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Guidelines

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Re: [talk-au] "airports" import

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:53:20 +1100
Steve Bennett  wrote:

> Hi Liz,
>   The airport import has been discussed on OSM-talk - see "Massive
> import of airports" thread. If the imported data represents genuine
> airstrips, then it sounds like they belong in OSM, but perhaps with
> different tags. Maybe "xxx airstrip" rather than "xxx airport".
> 
> PS Would you mind toning down the inflammatory language?
> "Crazy"..."trash"...etc. Let's keep it friendly.
> 
> Steve
> 
> On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 8:55 PM, Elizabeth Dodd 
> wrote:
> > someone from somewhere else in the world has imported "airports"
> > from some crazy list.
> > I went looking for some way off the beaten track places in NWQ
> > only to find
> > Kamileroi Airport
> > Lorraine Airport
> > Gregory Downs Airport
> >
> > which are all station / homestead airstrips
> >
> > Is someone bored enough to remove this trash import from Au ?
> >

I've read the talk discussion
The licence of the import was discussed
Very little discussion about the use of the import at all.
We have a set of rules or guidelines about importing stuff
and all of them have been violated by this import
not discussed in advance
global import without checking with other parties
licence is doubtful, stated PD but is copied from elsewhere

actual points are off (because they are calculated??) so its as bad as
trying to chase down those rogue BP service stations that were found up
to 33km from home.

I still find "crazy" and "trash" are appropriate.


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[talk-au] "airports" import

[Elizabeth Dodd]

someone from somewhere else in the world has imported "airports" from
some crazy list.
I went looking for some way off the beaten track places in NWQ
only to find 
Kamileroi Airport
Lorraine Airport
Gregory Downs Airport

which are all station / homestead airstrips

Is someone bored enough to remove this trash import from Au ?

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Re: [talk-au] a local data compilation ruling that may be of interest

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:57:34 +1100
David Murn  wrote:

> On Mon, 2010-12-20 at 13:53 +1100, Jim Croft wrote:
> > or not...
> > 
> > http://minterstmt.blogspot.com/2010/12/no-copyright-in-white-and-yellow-pages.html
> 
> I can see how this ruling applies to White pages, as that is simply a
> listing of facts.  Yellow pages however, is very different, with
> listings all sorted into categories (some listings into multiple
> categories), and a lot of the listings having artwork and other
> copyrighted materials like logos, etc.  How can someone claim that
> theres no creative copyrightable work in the yellow pages?
> 
> David
> 
> 

The logos etc in the YP are copyright to the businesses who stick them
in. 

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Re: [talk-au] a local data compilation ruling that may be of interest

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:53:20 +1100
Jim Croft  wrote:

> or not...
> 
> http://minterstmt.blogspot.com/2010/12/no-copyright-in-white-and-yellow-pages.html
> 
> jim
> 

Interesting.
Not considered is the possibility that the people working as
contractors for Telstra (as I recall they were/are not employees)
retained any copyright over what they collected. 
Certainly the compilation of the facts/data is not subject to
copyright, "sweat of the brow" does not bring copyright, but no light
is shed on the intelligent effort involved in "how do I tag this
object?" including when new tags are proposed and used.

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Re: [talk-au] NearMap

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 10:49:07 +0800
Ben Last  wrote:

> The nearmap.com twitter feed (or Facebook, if you prefer) is your
> friend... we announce flight starts, flight ends and publication of
> new surveys.
> http://www.nearmap.com/?ll=-35.082167,147.302565&z=21&t=h&nmd=20101207
> Cheers Ben
> 
> On 18 December 2010 08:49, Elizabeth Dodd  wrote:
> 
> > New nearmap imagery from 7th December of flooding in Wagga I just
> > noticed.
> >
I'm not into twitter, facebook or anything similar - I can spend enough
time on the net now without any other distractions.


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Re: [talk-au] Looks like Nearmap is gone from JOSM slippymap plugin

[Elizabeth Dodd]

> 
> So, whens the aussie fork coming?
> 
> David
> 

world-wide 
osm-f...@googlegroups.com


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[talk-au] NearMap

[Elizabeth Dodd]

New nearmap imagery from 7th December of flooding in Wagga I just
noticed.

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Re: [talk-au] NSW Bridge numbers

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 20:02:58 +1100
Elizabeth Dodd  wrote:

> Today, driving around various flood diversions, we found a bridge
> number >
> Mirrool Creek, south of Ardlethan on the Newell is 10029.
> Photo proof coming later
> My internet is either flaky or b**g*d
> 


http://billiau.net/zoph/photo.php?photo_id=19389

Guest / Guest should login if required


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[talk-au] NSW Bridge numbers

[Elizabeth Dodd]

Today, driving around various flood diversions, we found a bridge
number >
Mirrool Creek, south of Ardlethan on the Newell is 10029.
Photo proof coming later
My internet is either flaky or b**g*d

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: license change map

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 20:42:01 +1100
Elizabeth Dodd  wrote:

> Let's talk real advice, from the old white haired lady, who has been
> on non-profit Boards and for-profit Boards over the last 15 years.

Just published is this guide from the Institute of Directors and some
others, for UK registered unlisted companies

http://www.iod.com/MainWebsite/Resources/Document/corp_gov_guidance_and_principles_for_unlisted_companies_in_the_uk_final_1011.pdf

Definitely worth a read, and should be compulsory for all those serving
on the OSMF Board.

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: license change map

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sun, 28 Nov 2010 11:43:52 +0100
Mike  Dupont  wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Steve Bennett 
> wrote:
> > On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 8:29 PM, Mike  Dupont
> >  wrote:
> >> Yeah, I dont pay in money, I pay in code and data. Does that count?
> >> Also I payed in trips all over to collect data, dinners with
> >> people, etc etc. Why do I need to pay money to a bank account so
> >> that I have a say? FAIL!
> >
> > You could make that argument for virtually every volunteer
> > organisation. Virtually all organisations need some kind of funds,
> > and if there is no other form of revenue, it comes from members.
> > Nothing unusual there.
> 
> The question is of funds for voting rights or merit for voting rights.
> 
> This means that the people with funds will have a vote and the people
> who are just working will not.
> 
> mike
> 

I can see the legal line of thought for paying to belong to a company /
organisation. 
I do support the right of those without large amounts of cash -
students, those living in developing countries - to have a say.
All contributions to the project need to be valued - code, data, server
maintenance and cash.

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: license change map

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 15:12:32 -0800 (PST)
Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> OSMF is a democratically elected body. Candidates welcome. I guess
> 2011's elections will take place at the start of July as usual.

I can honestly say that I do not have time available to put into such a
job in the near future.
Standing as a candidate when you have not the time to provide the input
is morally wrong.

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Re: [talk-au] Looks like Nearmap is gone from JOSM slippymap plugin

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Sat, 27 Nov 2010 17:57:25 -0500
Richard Weait  wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 26, 2010 at 3:59 AM, John Smith
>  wrote:
> > Does this mean talks with Nearmap has failed to come to an amicable
> > arrangement?
> 
> From
> http://www.mail-archive.com/talk-au@openstreetmap.org/msg06524.html
> 
> Where, Ben Last said:
> 
> "I asked Richard F to remove NearMap support from Potlatch, since we
> didn't want to encourage anyone to add data to OSM which might be, or
> become, incompatible with the CTs."
> 
> Seems like it just took a little longer for this to be reflected in
> the JOSM plugin.
> 

No-one 'asked' for removal from JOSM.
No-one announced its removal from JOSM.

It was found to be removed by a concerned person checking the code.

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: license change map

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 21:33:15 +
Grant Slater  wrote:


> 
> Elizabeth, I tried to start a discussion with you offlist a few months
> ago, instead you decided to belittle me about my age. (I haven't had
> that since I was in my twenties so maybe I am just being overly
> sensitive.)
> Since you have stated: "I will continue to be somewhat disruptive on
> the lists and remain polite while doing so."
> 
I found a similar statement in a prominent developer's wiki page too :D

> Lets leave the past and restart...
> 
> Could you kindly restate your questions and I will attempt to answer
> them to the best of my ability.
> 
> Regards
>  Grant

1. Discussions are public. They go into a place where they are archived.
2. The questions continue, exactly the same while differing a little
with time.
A. From where does OSMF get a mandate to change the licence? There was
a plebiscite of OSMF members only, and of those eligible to vote, less
than half wanted to go with ODbL.
B. What is the real timeline? At what time will a decision be made one
way or the other? It's Ok, I read in the minutes of OSMF Board that the
'way to go' was by attrition.
C. What are the real amounts of data that OSMF Board is willing to
remove to achieve its aim of licence change? Is this a global quantity?
Is it OK to decimate the map in a smaller place eg Chile or Australia
if the rest of the world goes ODbL? Or is not OK?


Let's talk real advice, from the old white haired lady, who has been on
non-profit Boards and for-profit Boards over the last 15 years.

1. OSMF needs a written out strategic plan.
Where the Board would like to see the organisation be in 3 or 5 years;
how they plan to get there (usually vague); how success will be
measured; who is responsible for achieving success.
So if the goal is to have every potential source of aerial imagery
freed up for tracing purposes - is this a legal battle to prove that
traced work does not infringe copyright OR perhaps the system of
persuading those who buy imagery to share their wealth with OSM.
Who negotiates, how do we measure success are noted.

2. OSMF needs a business or annual plan, written out.
Take the above goals and decide how much we can bite off this year, be
precise about the goal. So the Board might authorise Mr Coast to
negotiate with Bing to get access to imagery. The Board would decide if
any concessions are offered to the donor, or no concessions at all. 

3. OSMF Board members need to state their conflicts of interest and
these must be recorded in the minutes. This is a legal requirement
where I live, and I think it would be in the UK, where OSMF is
registered. Following the declaration of conflicts of interest the
Board then decides how to handle the conflict of interest. It is common
practice for people to leave the room or the teleconference at these
points, but not obligatory. The Board needs to make these decisions
knowing that they need to withstand the scrutiny of company members.

4. OSMF Board must be prepared to admit when things aren't going as
planned and discuss whether a change of priorities is in order. 

Following these principles would put an end to a large amount of
bickering. I wouldn't read emails which can be summarised as "just a
little bit longer, and it will be all right". Reference could be made
to the business (annual) plan and then the statement would be "we
expect to be at point XYZ at date ABC, and if we do not reach this the
Board will have to review progress formally".

There are other ways of reviewing the progress of the organisation.
Reviews of potential threats and new opportunities need to happen. Some
Boards do this formally because they have staff to go through such
things. Others make sure that the question appears on the meeting
agenda so that members are prompted to mention new matters.

Volunteer based organisations and volunteer boards have difficulties
getting people with enough time to make sure that the organisation runs
smoothly. The legal status of a volunteer board is the same as one of a
large public company, and the government office with oversight of
registered companies will not accept a defence of "we're volunteers and
we didn't have time or we didn't know better". 
Specifics vary between jurisdictions, so I don't want to write an
essay on governance of an organisation Australian style when the
details may be quite wrong for OSMF.

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Re: [talk-au] MS imagery

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Thu, 25 Nov 2010 13:41:04 +1000
Stephen Hope  wrote:

> Planning to enable access is not the same as enabling access.  So, at
> the moment, we can't use it.

Merkaartor is ready to go, as soon as the legalities are OK.

from Merkaartor list
>> I guess we need a good way to use the Bing photos in Merkaartor now.
>> Or can we already? Some insight can be found here:
>> http%3A%2F%2Fmsdn.microsoft.com%2Fen-us%2Flibrary%2Fbb259689.aspx
>>
>> Preliminary (as we actually have no idea of what will be allowed,
>> yet)  
> version of Bing Maps plugin is in GIT.  

A snapshot including that was uploaded to Debian experimental some
minutes ago.



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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: license change map

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 20:18:07 +
Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

> [off-list]
> 
> > I have been labelled a 'troll' which I am not, and
> > been the subject of personal abuse by SteveC.
> 
> Hang about. I'm not SteveC and I wouldn't necessarily class him as  
> among "the guys who are doing stuff" that I referred to. I wouldn't  
> say "oh, all the Australians are a PITA because one of them said
> this".
> 
> Richard
> 
> 

this was quite deliberately done in this provocative manner
because you were claiming that all was very friendly in OSM

and it simply is not

I have not been rude to anyone on a public list
but I certainly have been the recipient of derogatory comments on an
OSM list
and to prove my point that this happens, I made a similar suggestion to
yourself, that is, to shut up because I am in disagreement.
I ask questions which are still valid, and they are not answered, but
ignored.

I'm still mapping, because I'm filling the database with more hundreds
of km of CC-by-SA data, just having taken the scenic way home from the
feedlot this morning to 'get' more roads.

and so I am an active participant in this project, as I have been for 3
years

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Re: [talk-au] CT / ODbL approval by changeset.

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 11:58:21 -0500
Richard Weait  wrote:

> Glad to have your support on this. 

I guess you don't comprehend Australian idiom. 
I didn't read support in the reply at all, noting some sarcasm.

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: license change map

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 08:59:13 -0800 (PST)
Richard Fairhurst  wrote:

>  Because when you engage with the guys who are
> doing stuff, make suggestions, talk to them in a friendly manner, the
> result is better for everyone. That applies as much to licence
> discussions as it does to OSM software or website development. But
> when you throw assumptions and resentment around and assume the
> worst, yes, the worst usually happens.

I find this quite offensive. Because I have discussed things and asked
questions, while indicating that I do not agree, I have been treated
extremely rudely on other OSM mailing lists, in particular by persons
in 'high places'. I have been labelled a 'troll' which I am not, and
been the subject of personal abuse by SteveC.

All that has happened is polarisation of the debate, and I firmly
suggest that if you read talk-au you never post again.

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Re: [talk-au] Fwd: license change map

[Elizabeth Dodd]

On Mon, 22 Nov 2010 22:50:09 +1100
Steve Bennett  wrote:

>  But I also
> haven't yet seen any reasons, other than sheer bloody mindedness, why
> a person who was happy to contribute under a CC-BY-SA licence would be
> unhappy to do so under ODbL, assuming they were able to do so.

I don't agree with ODBL. I don't think that it is right that those
providing manipulated data eg data ready for a navigation app (Navit,
Garmin format) should have to provide access to a planet dump of OSM as
well. I also am a 'share-alike' person, and those who use the data need
to add their additions to the pool of data.


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