Re: [talk-au] Discussion K: Evaluation of ACT paths audit 2012 and the OSM ACT dataset

2019-10-09 Thread Andrew Davidson

On 8/10/19 7:33 pm, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:


Are you sure that ways signed as designated
for cyclists and pedestrians are far more
popular than all other ways?



I think the issue is that he wants to tag paths like this one:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/474940890

which looks like this from the ground:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Footpath_in_Hackett,_Canberra,_Australia.jpg

the same as this path:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/219976432

which from the ground looks like this:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bike_path_in_Dickson,_Canberra,_Australia.jpg

because the ACT Government calls both of them "Community Paths".

Every other mapper that has mapped in Canberra has been OK with the 
concept of cycleway for the primary (low friction) network and footway 
for the secondary (high friction) network.


This has been discussed on this list here:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2015-September/010656.html
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-au/2016-April/010901.html

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Re: [talk-au] Discussion K: Evaluation of ACT paths audit 2012 and the OSM ACT dataset

2019-10-08 Thread Andy Townsend

On 08/10/2019 09:33, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:


7 Oct 2019, 23:02 by talk-au@openstreetmap.org:

"Community paths" (official term) are the most common path type in
the ACT and correspond in the OSM ATG to the tagging:
- highway=path
- foot=designated
- bicycle=designated
- segregated=no

Are you sure that ways signed as designated
for cyclists and pedestrians are far more
popular than all other ways?

The way that this question is phrased suggests that the user is either 
simply trolling, or struggles with the concept of "discussion" and 
treats this list as essentially write-only.  This wouldn't be unique in 
OSM; we've had people treat diaries and the wiki in a similar way before.


Until the author shows that they're willing to engage with other people 
(replying to other people's posts, answering questions, explaining how 
they've contributed to OSM) it's unlikely that anything of value will 
come from these posts.  The talk-au list is one of the sanest OSM lists 
around; relatively speaking it has fewer people grandstanding and more 
people collaborating to get things done than almost any other OSM forum 
that I'm subscribed to.


Best Regards,

Andy


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Re: [talk-au] Discussion K: Evaluation of ACT paths audit 2012 and the OSM ACT dataset

2019-10-08 Thread Mateusz Konieczny



7 Oct 2019, 23:02 by talk-au@openstreetmap.org:
> "Community paths" (official term) are the most common path type in the ACT 
> and correspond in the OSM ATG to the tagging:
> - highway=path
> - foot=designated
> - bicycle=designated
> - segregated=no
>
Are you sure that ways signed as designated
for cyclists and pedestrians are far more
popular than all other ways?___
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Re: [talk-au] Discussion K: Evaluation of ACT paths audit 2012 and the OSM ACT dataset

2019-10-07 Thread Richard Fairhurst
This is getting ridiculous.

Richard



--
Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Australia-f5416966.html

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[talk-au] Discussion K: Evaluation of ACT paths audit 2012 and the OSM ACT dataset

2019-10-07 Thread Herbert.Remi via Talk-au
# Discussion K: Evaluation of ACT paths audit 2012 and the OSM ACT dataset

## The Issue
It is clear from the OSM dataset for in the ACT, that it is the product of 
using the editor presets for paths. The OSM Australian Tagging Guidelines (ATG) 
is consistent with the real use and the legal definition of "community paths" 
in the ACT (and verifiable) but this is completely ignored by the mappers. No 
single incidence of this tagging exists in the ACT. Using ACT data from 2012, 
98% of ACT paths should be "community paths". The disconnect between the OSM 
ATG (correct) and the OSM path data (false) for the ACT is disturbing.

## QUESTION
What should we do about this?

## what you need to know
- Community paths ( permitted for both bikes and pedestrians) make up 98% off 
all paths that exist in the ACT.
- Editor presets overwhelmingly dominate in OSM dataset for the ACT: almost all 
the paths in the ACT are tagged with the Foot Path preset or the Cycle Path 
preset and some with the Cycle & Foot Path preset. The OSM ATG recommended 
tagging is NOT USED in the ACT. Prove it yourself below. :-)

## Most paths in the ACT are community paths
"Community paths" (official term) are the most common path type in the ACT and 
correspond in the OSM ATG to the tagging:
- highway=path
- foot=designated
- bicycle=designated
- segregated=no

Quoting the ACT document (link below) "Guidelines for community path repairs 
and maintenance":
"Footpaths and cycle paths (referred to as community paths) are provided to 
assist the community with walking and cycling activities. As at 30 June 2012, 
there was 2,533 kilometres of community paths in the ACT (2,190 kilometres of 
footpaths and 343 kilometres of off-road cycle paths). Community paths can be 
used by pedestrians, cyclists and motorised mobility devices (electric 
wheelchairs and mobility scooters/buggies that cannot travel over 10 kilometres 
per hour)."
source: 
https://www.tccs.act.gov.au/roads-paths/cycling/policy-for-footpath-maintenance

Back in 2012, there were 2533km of paths. As far as I know there where no bike 
ONLY and pedestrian ONLY paths at that time. Some bike ONLY paths have been 
built since: the Civic city loop (approx 4km in 2013), Woden bike path (2km), 
and Belconnen Bikeway (4.7km to be completed in 2020). None of these paths 
existed in 2012 so the calculation below is conservative. In the new suburbs, 
many community paths have been built since. They are not "footpaths"!

(1) Total paths in community paths 2533km
(2) Total "bike ONLY" paths know: approx 25km
(3) Double item 2 for possible "pedestrian ONLY" path duplication (unlikely): 
total now approx 50km
(4) There is approx 50km of bike ONLY and pedestrian ONLY paths
(5) Calculate bike ONLY and pedestrian ONLY paths as a percentage of the total 
1.97% (50/2533)
(6) The difference gives you the percentage of community paths (both bike and 
pedestrian) = 98%

**Community paths (both bike and pedestrian) make up 98% off all paths in the 
ACT.**

## Frequency distribution of path presets in the OSM ACT dataset
This can be best done visually from a live data set using the overpass-turbo 
tool. This "analysis" is a visuall comparison the standard ID editor presets 
with the ATG tagging recommended for the ACT. I will provide a link for each 
scenario.

**Almost all the paths in the ACT are tagged with the Foot Path preset or the 
Cycle Path preset and some with the Cycle & Foot Path preset.**

### Foot Path preset (symbol "walking man“)
frequency of tagging in OSM dataset: VERY COMMON
overpass-turbo link: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/MU7
tags:
- highway=footway

### Cycle Path preset (symbol blue bike)
frequency of tagging in OSM dataset: COMMON
overpass-turbo link: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/MU8
tags:
- highway=cycleway

### Cycle & Foot Path preset (symbol blue bike)
 ID editor preset
frequency of tagging in OSM dataset: NONE
overpass-turbo link: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/MUb
tags:
- cycleway=highway
- foot=designated
- bicycle=designated

 Alternate preset (not sure which editor though)
frequency of tagging in OSM dataset: SOME
overpass-turbo link: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/MUe
tags:
- highway= cycleway
- foot=designated
- bicycle=designated

### ATG recommended tagging for the ACT Community Path
frequency of tagging in OSM dataset: RARE
(but leave off the segregated=no and you get more)
overpass-turbo link: https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/MUc
tags:
- highway=path
- bicycle=designated
- foot=designated
- segregated=no

## QUESTION
What should we do about this?

I welcome your comments
Keywords: Australia, ACT, ATG, ID editor, presets, paths, root cause analysis___
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