Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
FYI, Franc was kind enough to let me have a copy of his original Perl import script. Email me if you want a copy. However, and I think Franc would agree, I understand it has really been superceded by the capabilities of ogr2osm. Emilie Laffray said to me in email, If it is done properly (and data is good), ogr2osm would remove duplicate nodes, merges ways etc... A little inspection of data should provide us this. On the discussion of whether it is actually a good idea, my mild suggestion, (I am no longer based in Australia), is that OpenStreetMap schema and so on is becoming stable enough to think about having separate layers outside the main database. This might well suit the suburbs boundary case. Perhaps one as an as is official layer and one as a community-edited version. Mike On 19/09/2012 11:17, Andrew Harvey wrote: Hi Ken, On 19/09/12 11:57, Ken Self wrote: In doing a manual load I am ensuring the boundaries share common boundaries with one another and the multipolygons close off properly. Those are pretty much impossible to do with an automated load. Even a few manual errors creep in but they are easily fixed. As I understand it from the ABS website http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/a9421cdfb258e4a4ca2570ad00818509?o pendocument they are supposed to be the gazetted boundaries ... that document is for the 2006 census boundaries. For the 2011 ASGS, the Non-ABS structures data is at http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/1270.0.55.003July%202011?OpenDocument With the documentation at http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/subscriber.nsf/log?openagent1270055003_oct%202011.pdf1270.0.55.003Publication469CDA45CE2B94CCCA257937000D966FJuly%20201131.10.2011Previous it states that the LGA boundaries which form part of the ASGS 2011, are an ABS approximation of officially gazetted LGAs as defined by each State and Territory (S/T) Local Government Department. Which is good enough for most purposes, and a good starting point for later corrections. I suppose that raises an interesting point, that in true OSM spirit if on the ground data indicates an area is LGA X (eg. street sign branding), but the official gazetted boundaries say otherwise, OSM should primarily contain what's on the ground, rather than the official one. Again quoting from that document, the suburb boundaries which form part of the ASGS 2011, are an ABS approximation of localities gazetted by the Geographical Place Name authority in each State and Territory (S/T). Since 1996 these boundaries have been formalised for most areas of Australia through a program coordinated by the Committee for Geographical Names in Australasia (CGNA) under the umbrella of the Intergovernmental Committee On Surveying and Mapping (ISCM). SSCs are built from Statistical Area Level 1 (SA1) that, singly or in combination, form an approximation of Gazetted Localities. The question is what to use as a definitive source for corrections that is ODBL compliant. I've found some maps on http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/publications/publications-maps.html#5 but not sure if we can use them to make corrections in OSM to the ABS boundaries. No you cannot gather information from those maps and transfer it into OSM. Those maps are Copyright All rights reserved. And the golden OSM rule is don't copy from other maps unless they are released under a compatible license. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
Unfortunately I've found that the ABS data that the data is not as good as it ought to be. Many nodes that should be shared are not coincident and in many cases a vertex node for one boundary has no corresponding node on the straight through boundary. And in some cases the vertex node is not quite on the adjacent way or the ways cross over. I'm finding that as often as not I have to join node to way rather than merge nodes to resolve the boundary intersection Ken -Original Message- From: Michael Collinson [mailto:m...@ayeltd.biz] Sent: Wednesday, 19 September 2012 7:50 PM To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries FYI, Franc was kind enough to let me have a copy of his original Perl import script. Email me if you want a copy. However, and I think Franc would agree, I understand it has really been superceded by the capabilities of ogr2osm. Emilie Laffray said to me in email, If it is done properly (and data is good), ogr2osm would remove duplicate nodes, merges ways etc... A little inspection of data should provide us this. On the discussion of whether it is actually a good idea, my mild suggestion, (I am no longer based in Australia), is that OpenStreetMap schema and so on is becoming stable enough to think about having separate layers outside the main database. This might well suit the suburbs boundary case. Perhaps one as an as is official layer and one as a community-edited version. Mike On 19/09/2012 11:17, Andrew Harvey wrote: Hi Ken, On 19/09/12 11:57, Ken Self wrote: In doing a manual load I am ensuring the boundaries share common boundaries with one another and the multipolygons close off properly. Those are pretty much impossible to do with an automated load. Even a few manual errors creep in but they are easily fixed. As I understand it from the ABS website http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/a9421cdfb258e4a4ca2570ad008 18509?o pendocument they are supposed to be the gazetted boundaries ... that document is for the 2006 census boundaries. For the 2011 ASGS, the Non-ABS structures data is at http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/DetailsPage/1270.0.55.003July% 202011?OpenDocument With the documentation at http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/subscriber.nsf/log?openagent1270055003 _oct%202011.pdf1270.0.55.003Publication469CDA45CE2B94CCCA257937000D 966FJuly%20201131.10.2011Previous it states that the LGA boundaries which form part of the ASGS 2011, are an ABS approximation of officially gazetted LGAs as defined by each State and Territory (S/T) Local Government Department. Which is good enough for most purposes, and a good starting point for later corrections. I suppose that raises an interesting point, that in true OSM spirit if on the ground data indicates an area is LGA X (eg. street sign branding), but the official gazetted boundaries say otherwise, OSM should primarily contain what's on the ground, rather than the official one. Again quoting from that document, the suburb boundaries which form part of the ASGS 2011, are an ABS approximation of localities gazetted by the Geographical Place Name authority in each State and Territory (S/T). Since 1996 these boundaries have been formalised for most areas of Australia through a program coordinated by the Committee for Geographical Names in Australasia (CGNA) under the umbrella of the Intergovernmental Committee On Surveying and Mapping (ISCM). SSCs are built from Statistical Area Level 1 (SA1) that, singly or in combination, form an approximation of Gazetted Localities. The question is what to use as a definitive source for corrections that is ODBL compliant. I've found some maps on http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/publications/publications-maps.html#5 but not sure if we can use them to make corrections in OSM to the ABS boundaries. No you cannot gather information from those maps and transfer it into OSM. Those maps are Copyright All rights reserved. And the golden OSM rule is don't copy from other maps unless they are released under a compatible license. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] suburb boundaries
Hello all, I would like to ask what the status of the suburb boundaries is? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data user pnorman (on IRC) has offered to import this data if nobody knows how to do it___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
I've been manually loading up the suburb and LGA boundaries in Victoria from ABS 2011. Figured that would be quicker than waiting for everyone to reach a consensus on how to automate it and means it gets done properly In doing a manual load I am ensuring the boundaries share common boundaries with one another and the multipolygons close off properly. Those are pretty much impossible to do with an automated load. Even a few manual errors creep in but they are easily fixed. As I understand it from the ABS website http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/a9421cdfb258e4a4ca2570ad00818509?o pendocument they are supposed to be the gazetted boundaries There are a few errors in the boundaries but I think it's easier to fix those once the main load is done. After that I'd suggest it's a manual effort to make any further changes. It's not something I'd want to do again from scratch. The question is what to use as a definitive source for corrections that is ODBL compliant. I've found some maps on http://www.vec.vic.gov.au/publications/publications-maps.html#5 but not sure if we can use them to make corrections in OSM to the ABS boundaries. Anyway - cross that bridge when we get to it. Cheers Ken On 18 Sep 2012 16:40:02, Ian Sergeant inas66+...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Anthony, I don't think not knowing how to do it is the issue. More to the point is that we imported the 2006 ABS data, and it may have caused more problems that it solved. The boundaries correspond to ABS statistical regions. They aren't necessarily suburb boundaries, nor towns, nor governed areas. If we import them again, what do they represent? Do we update the manually? If the ABS release a newer data set do we replace the old? If so, is it even reasonable to import data we don't want to modify? Every data consumer would like to see more data in the OSM database to consume. However as data maintainers we have to balance their needs with our ability to manage an incredibly voluminous import and keep it maintained and accurate within the OSM database. We've removed the ABS2006 data, and it did a fair bit of damage in doing so. I'd like to think we had learned the lessons of that before embarking on the next one. Feel free to initiate a discussion. Ian. On 18 September 2012 16:24, Anthony pan...@live.com wrote: Hello all, I would like to ask what the status of the suburb boundaries is? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data user pnorman (on IRC) has offered to import this data if nobody knows how to do it ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On 16 February 2010 17:32, Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com wrote: I hope you mean that *editors* should be improved to help prevent these accidents? (which I think is an excellent idea) Considering the types of editing wars that could happen over international borders, I wasn't suggesting anything about editors, it only takes one editor that allows a free for all and this is a pointless exercise for the most part... ...as opposed to the suggestion of appointing an authority to hand out various levels of editing authorisation (which I think is crazy). Actually I wasn't suggesting anything about an authority, just limiting what new accounts can do, although with the option of allowing new accounts to do this as well, remember this is suppose to be a deterent, not actually stop someone with appropriate skill level from doing anything. Anyone suitably determined won't be stopped by something like this. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On 16 February 2010 17:38, Elizabeth Dodd ed...@billiau.net wrote: Yes, if we can get editing software to co-operate rather than getting persons licensed that could be helpful Any particular ideas on how to phrase this for enhancement requests? I did make a suggestion about a potlatch tutorial mode... ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Tue, 2010-02-16 at 17:32 +1000, Roy Wallace wrote: On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: Perhaps admin boundaries need to be locked from editing until people have a certain amount of mapping under their belt and/or ask for the ability to add/edit/delete admin boundaries, this might prevent or at least reduce some of the accidents and new accounts being created to shift borders for the wrong reasons. I hope you mean that *editors* should be improved to help prevent these accidents? (which I think is an excellent idea) ...as opposed to the suggestion of appointing an authority to hand out various levels of editing authorisation (which I think is crazy). I think theres merit to both sides of the argument. Ive seen a few areas that have been drastically changed by a new user who didnt understand entirely what they were doing, but on the other hand, Ive been mapping for over a year and though I never purposely touch suburb boundaries, I have accidently changed (then fixed) them from time to time. I think it would be good to have some way to lock the boundaries (and as has been suggested before, hiding the boundaries too). While I think its important that anyone should be able to edit the boundaries, I think some/most changes to them are accidental and the user should have to specify whether they wish to be able to make changes to boundaries, or whether theyd rather the system protect itself from accidental changes they might make. David ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On 15 February 2010 18:27, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: And now Perth has gone under water: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.901lon=115.835zoom=10layers=B000FTF That was cached, I forced the server to regenerate the tile and it no longer shows that much blue. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
John Smith wrote: That was cached, I forced the server to regenerate the tile and it no longer shows that much blue. Perth's the one I hadn't tried regenerating reloading. Any thoughts on the other two, further south? John H ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 4:13 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 12 February 2010 17:57, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: I have no idea. But there are problems with the coastline in that area (and further south) at certain zoom levels. I've been looking for the source of the problems for a while, without luck and without changing anything. You might have uncovered it. There is a script that turns coastlines into shape files, I wonder what sort of error messages it spits out... Alternatively we could pull all the coastline ways from one of the XAPI servers and then try to build some code to check everything is right. I have no idea about the coast lines - though the coastline checker doesn't report any errors for WA at the moment: http://coastline.openstreetmap.nl/?lat=-30.02lon=120.85zoom=6layers=B00T The damage I reported to boundaries was accidental - a combination of Potlatch hiding the roads underneath the boundary ways and lack of awareness of what the boundary ways are for. Arie ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On 12 February 2010 17:57, John Henderson snow...@gmx.com wrote: I have no idea. But there are problems with the coastline in that area (and further south) at certain zoom levels. I've been looking for the source of the problems for a while, without luck and without changing anything. You might have uncovered it. There is a script that turns coastlines into shape files, I wonder what sort of error messages it spits out... Alternatively we could pull all the coastline ways from one of the XAPI servers and then try to build some code to check everything is right. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
I'm making some progress fixing up Perth suburb boundaries - honestly I'm finding it painful to untangle some of the changes, but I'm getting there. Looking further South I came across the relation for Burekup which was missing some of it's boundaries. OK, I think, I'll undelete the ways and it'll be easy. That led me to changeset 3790790 where the boundary had been deleted and from there to a number of other changesets by the same user (all without any comment). Here's the ones I found that affect boundary ways: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/3790790 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/3814003 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/3813839 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/3838876 There could be others, I didn't look through everything he's done. I have sent the user a message asking what he was trying to do but I'm not hopeful. Any suggestions about what to do before trying to manually repair? Arie. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
Arie Paap wrote: I'm making some progress fixing up Perth suburb boundaries - honestly I'm finding it painful to untangle some of the changes, but I'm getting there. Looking further South I came across the relation for Burekup which was missing some of it's boundaries. OK, I think, I'll undelete the ways and it'll be easy. That led me to changeset 3790790 where the boundary had been deleted and from there to a number of other changesets by the same user (all without any comment). Here's the ones I found that affect boundary ways: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/3790790 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/3814003 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/3813839 http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/3838876 There could be others, I didn't look through everything he's done. I have sent the user a message asking what he was trying to do but I'm not hopeful. Any suggestions about what to do before trying to manually repair? I have no idea. But there are problems with the coastline in that area (and further south) at certain zoom levels. I've been looking for the source of the problems for a while, without luck and without changing anything. You might have uncovered it. John H ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 6:31 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: While adding postcodes it looks like some people have incorrectly joined boundaries together, to make a single way for a stream/road etc, this has broken suburb boundaries in various areas. I emailed Franc the other day for a copy of osm files converted from the original shape file, but in the mean time I added a custom mapnik style sheet to display suburb boundaries, similar to the style sheet that displays postcode boundaries... http://maps.bigtincan.com/?layer=000B00FF After making that, it looks worst than I first feared, with most of the NT missing in action, and large areas of other states missing too, not sure if this is just a config issue with the style sheet and/or boundaries slightly tagged wrong or someone screwing up the boundaries. I know some care about these so I hope to have OSM files up soon for them similar to the postcode files so that we can fix things up. I've been trying to fix up some of the suburbs in Perth that are missing on the suburb display map and running into some problems: * Some of the relations seem to be completely missing. * some boundaries seem to be duplicated (and shifted) and it's not easy to tell which is the correct one. I'd like to know if the .osm files with suburb data are available somewhere. I have found the postcode files useful but they're missing some of the boundaries where a two suburbs have the same postcode and of course there aren't any relations. TIA, Arie. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On 10 February 2010 18:02, Arie Paap wildmy...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to know if the .osm files with suburb data are available somewhere. I have found the postcode files useful but they're missing some of the boundaries where a two suburbs have the same postcode and of course there aren't any relations. The suburb boundaries can be found here: http://map-data.bigtincan.com/data/suburbs/ ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 4:46 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 10 February 2010 18:02, Arie Paap wildmy...@gmail.com wrote: I'd like to know if the .osm files with suburb data are available somewhere. I have found the postcode files useful but they're missing some of the boundaries where a two suburbs have the same postcode and of course there aren't any relations. The suburb boundaries can be found here: http://map-data.bigtincan.com/data/suburbs/ Thanks John, Anyone have suggestions how to recreate the relations which have been deleted? I can manually put back most of the information but the SSC_2006 identifier and possibly the suburb's old name aren't available. Arie. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On 10 February 2010 19:35, Arie Paap wildmy...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone have suggestions how to recreate the relations which have been deleted? I can manually put back most of the information but the Are you sure the relation has been deleted? I've noticed a lot of suburb relations damaged by people merging and combining things they shouldn't but the suburb relation still exists and just needs fixing. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, John Smith wrote: On 10 February 2010 19:35, Arie Paap wildmy...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone have suggestions how to recreate the relations which have been deleted? I can manually put back most of the information but the Are you sure the relation has been deleted? I've noticed a lot of suburb relations damaged by people merging and combining things they shouldn't but the suburb relation still exists and just needs fixing. Merkaartor has a feature where you can view or not view relations and might help you decide if there is any left which can be salvaged Or would you like to give examples for others to check? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, John Smith wrote: On 10 February 2010 19:35, Arie Paap wildmy...@gmail.com wrote: Anyone have suggestions how to recreate the relations which have been deleted? I can manually put back most of the information but the Are you sure the relation has been deleted? I've noticed a lot of suburb relations damaged by people merging and combining things they shouldn't but the suburb relation still exists and just needs fixing. Merkaartor has a feature where you can view or not view relations and might help you decide if there is any left which can be salvaged Or would you like to give examples for others to check? I haven't used Merkaartor but I presume it presents relations in a way similar to JOSM which is what I've been using. The specific example I'm looking at is Hamersley, see http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.8482lon=115.8269zoom=14layers=B000FTF Balga and Warwick are right next door and are also a bit of a mess (in fact there's duplicate relations for those two). None of the boundaries for Hamersley are in a relation with that suburb name and what really made me think it's been deleted is that http://www.informationfreeway.org/api/0.6/relation[name=Hamersley] comes back empty. Arie. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On 11 February 2010 10:13, Arie Paap wildmy...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't used Merkaartor but I presume it presents relations in a way similar to JOSM which is what I've been using. The specific example I'm looking at is Hamersley, see http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.8482lon=115.8269zoom=14layers=B000FTF Balga and Warwick are right next door and are also a bit of a mess (in fact there's duplicate relations for those two). None of the boundaries for Hamersley are in a relation with that suburb name and what really made me think it's been deleted is that http://www.informationfreeway.org/api/0.6/relation[name=Hamersley] comes back empty. It does seem like it's been deleted but tracking down who and when will be difficult, although the new API for looking at changesets would help. Franc did the original import for suburbs so I've added him to this message. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
I haven't used Merkaartor but I presume it presents relations in a way similar to JOSM which is what I've been using. You can make it show big blue dotted lines on the map in a rectangle around the extreme points in the relation, or turn it off and not be alarmed by big blue dotted lines going everywhere.. If the relation has been renamed you could find it pictorially. I'll have a look tonight at home. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 8:27 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: On 11 February 2010 10:13, Arie Paap wildmy...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't used Merkaartor but I presume it presents relations in a way similar to JOSM which is what I've been using. The specific example I'm looking at is Hamersley, see http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-31.8482lon=115.8269zoom=14layers=B000FTF Balga and Warwick are right next door and are also a bit of a mess (in fact there's duplicate relations for those two). None of the boundaries for Hamersley are in a relation with that suburb name and what really made me think it's been deleted is that http://www.informationfreeway.org/api/0.6/relation[name=Hamersley] comes back empty. It does seem like it's been deleted but tracking down who and when will be difficult, although the new API for looking at changesets would help. Franc did the original import for suburbs so I've added him to this message. Ah, I found looking through the history for one of the relations named Warwick that it used to be Hamersley. I'll restore that to what it should be. Thanks all, Arie. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, Feb 11, 2010 at 12:27 PM, ed...@billiau.net wrote: You can make it show big blue dotted lines on the map in a rectangle around the extreme points in the relation, or turn it off and not be alarmed by big blue dotted lines going everywhere.. If the relation has been renamed you could find it pictorially. I'll have a look tonight at home. That would have been very handy in JOSM while I was fixing up these suburbs. I think I've fixed it up now. Arie ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Suburb boundaries
While adding postcodes it looks like some people have incorrectly joined boundaries together, to make a single way for a stream/road etc, this has broken suburb boundaries in various areas. I emailed Franc the other day for a copy of osm files converted from the original shape file, but in the mean time I added a custom mapnik style sheet to display suburb boundaries, similar to the style sheet that displays postcode boundaries... http://maps.bigtincan.com/?layer=000B00FF After making that, it looks worst than I first feared, with most of the NT missing in action, and large areas of other states missing too, not sure if this is just a config issue with the style sheet and/or boundaries slightly tagged wrong or someone screwing up the boundaries. I know some care about these so I hope to have OSM files up soon for them similar to the postcode files so that we can fix things up. After that it might be wise to figure out some strategy to monitor changes to admin boundaries to limit the effect of mistakes in future. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
After that it might be wise to figure out some strategy to monitor changes to admin boundaries to limit the effect of mistakes in future. Easy fix. Don't join other ways to them. -- Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
2009/12/22 Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com: After that it might be wise to figure out some strategy to monitor changes to admin boundaries to limit the effect of mistakes in future. Easy fix. Don't join other ways to them. That would assume I have total control over other peoples actions... Yeah, know what you mean. But for the whole list it again comes back to don't use the suburb/postcode boundaries to display other information. Draw another way beside it or something but make sure you don't accidently delete them. -- Cheers Ross ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
2009/12/22 Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com: Draw another way beside it or something but make sure you don't accidently delete them. When making postcode boundaries I'm starting to really agree with you, people using roads especially make a complete mess of things at times and you can't easily see the boundaries in JOSM. Although that is as much of a failing of JOSM to display boundaries better too. I think it's suitable to use boundaries for rivers/streams especially where there is no hi-res imagery or GPS traces, other than that it would be nice if JOSM didn't auto add nodes to boundaries when you are drawing roads etc. I wonder if there would be worth filing a request for enhancement against JOSM so it doesn't display boundaries by default, you need to load a boundary layer and/or specifically ask for the boundary to be loaded in the same layer. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:37 PM, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: After that it might be wise to figure out some strategy to monitor changes to admin boundaries to limit the effect of mistakes in future. Easy fix. Don't join other ways to them. I don't get it. If I join another way to a boundary, you're saying the boundary disappears? What's going on? ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
2009/12/23 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:37 PM, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: After that it might be wise to figure out some strategy to monitor changes to admin boundaries to limit the effect of mistakes in future. Easy fix. Don't join other ways to them. I don't get it. If I join another way to a boundary, you're saying the boundary disappears? What's going on? No, people are merging boundaries together breaking relations that have grouped them. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 7:04 AM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/12/23 Roy Wallace waldo000...@gmail.com: On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:37 PM, Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com wrote: After that it might be wise to figure out some strategy to monitor changes to admin boundaries to limit the effect of mistakes in future. Easy fix. Don't join other ways to them. I don't get it. If I join another way to a boundary, you're saying the boundary disappears? What's going on? No, people are merging boundaries together breaking relations that have grouped them. Could you give a detailed example? It's still not entirely clear to me. I'm only asking so that I don't accidentally do it myself. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.comwrote: After that it might be wise to figure out some strategy to monitor changes to admin boundaries to limit the effect of mistakes in future. I suggest asking the authors of JOSM/Potlatch/... to put in an option to hide boundaries. Most of the time they're just in the way, and there's no good reason to be editing them, most of the time. (Unlike roads or whatever, where you can improve them by matching against the imagery). Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
One possible approach to this that I believe will solve the more general case of this is the ability to move selected items to a new layer, which you can then hide cheers On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 5:28 PM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 9:31 PM, John Smith deltafoxtrot...@gmail.com wrote: After that it might be wise to figure out some strategy to monitor changes to admin boundaries to limit the effect of mistakes in future. I suggest asking the authors of JOSM/Potlatch/... to put in an option to hide boundaries. Most of the time they're just in the way, and there's no good reason to be editing them, most of the time. (Unlike roads or whatever, where you can improve them by matching against the imagery). Steve ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 12:29:52 +1030 Darrin Smith bel...@beldin.org wrote: On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 11:46:44 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, The upload has completed (much faster running from dev). There were a couple of problems:-] * Gruyere and 'Wandin North - Bar' in Victoria, which I *believe* I have fixed * Beatrice and Ellinjaa in Queensland which are too complex for me to fix as I don't have local knowledge cheers That made a serious difference the the speed of things, wow. Now to resolve the differences between my own boundary work and the ABS stuff in northern adelaide, and at a first glance I must say I'm glad I told you to upload the data anyway, because there's a couple of places where I think the ABS is more correct than my results (and a few the other way also of course ;) Going to be fun correlating the two. :) Futher poking around I've found the 'Unclassified SA' 'suburb', containing over 100 segments scattered all over the state, I assume most other states will have a similar object, what's the thoughts of everyone on this case? Is it really needed? (I assume it's just a category in the ABS data that's come across wholesale). Seems to me anything not in side a suburb boundary would be considered unclassified anyway? -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
Hi Franc, Great job. One thing I've noticed, in my area anyway (Whitsundays), is that it's given the outlines of some of the national parks. Cape Conway NP but not Dryander NP. So these could be updated as part of the relation as well. Having said that what would be the best way to go about it, tag etc. -- Ross Scanlon i...@4x4falcon.com On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 11:46:44 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, The upload has completed (much faster running from dev). There were a couple of problems:-] * Gruyere and 'Wandin North - Bar' in Victoria, which I *believe* I have fixed * Beatrice and Ellinjaa in Queensland which are too complex for me to fix as I don't have local knowledge cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
[snip] That made a serious difference the the speed of things, wow. Yep, latency is really nasty for this sort of thing Now to resolve the differences between my own boundary work and the ABS stuff in northern adelaide, and at a first glance I must say I'm glad I told you to upload the data anyway, because there's a couple of places where I think the ABS is more correct than my results (and a few the other way also of course ;) Going to be fun correlating the two. :) Yes, my head is spinning even from the small number of bit I have looked at. A friend very conveniently recently moved to the street that appears to define a border in the area I am in. However here address is the 'other' suburb from what the ABS data says. To throw a spanner in the works the ABS data seem very reasonable from my local knowledge, so the question is how to find out which is 'right' cheers -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
[snip] Futher poking around I've found the 'Unclassified SA' 'suburb', containing over 100 segments scattered all over the state, I assume most other states will have a similar object, what's the thoughts of everyone on this case? Is it really needed? (I assume it's just a category in the ABS data that's come across wholesale). Seems to me anything not in side a suburb boundary would be considered unclassified anyway? I noticed a small number of those in NSW and decided to ignore them and just put them, that might have been a bad idea ;-( cheers -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 13:38:40 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] Futher poking around I've found the 'Unclassified SA' 'suburb', containing over 100 segments scattered all over the state, I assume most other states will have a similar object, what's the thoughts of everyone on this case? Is it really needed? (I assume it's just a category in the ABS data that's come across wholesale). Seems to me anything not in side a suburb boundary would be considered unclassified anyway? I noticed a small number of those in NSW and decided to ignore them and just put them, that might have been a bad idea ;-( LOL, Well I guess we just need to decide if a 'unclassified' suburb is appropriate or not. If we decide it's not we blow away the relation and problem solved :) Or if keep it should we somehow flag it slightly differently so that we know it's not an actual suburb called 'Unclassified', although there are weirder names around ;) -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
Yep, sounds like a sensible approach. I'm inclined towards leaving them in and adding a tag as deleting them feels like 'information loss', which I have biases against . . . . cheers On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Darrin Smith bel...@beldin.org wrote: On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 13:38:40 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] Futher poking around I've found the 'Unclassified SA' 'suburb', containing over 100 segments scattered all over the state, I assume most other states will have a similar object, what's the thoughts of everyone on this case? Is it really needed? (I assume it's just a category in the ABS data that's come across wholesale). Seems to me anything not in side a suburb boundary would be considered unclassified anyway? I noticed a small number of those in NSW and decided to ignore them and just put them, that might have been a bad idea ;-( LOL, Well I guess we just need to decide if a 'unclassified' suburb is appropriate or not. If we decide it's not we blow away the relation and problem solved :) Or if keep it should we somehow flag it slightly differently so that we know it's not an actual suburb called 'Unclassified', although there are weirder names around ;) -- =b -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 11:46 +1100, Franc Carter wrote: Hi all, The upload has completed (much faster running from dev). Are the suburbs rendered, or do they only show up in an editor like JOSM? James Andrewartha ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
Boundaries are rendered on mapnik and osmarender as far as I know cheers On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 1:55 PM, James Andrewartha tr...@tartarus.uwa.edu.au wrote: On Sat, 2009-03-21 at 11:46 +1100, Franc Carter wrote: Hi all, The upload has completed (much faster running from dev). Are the suburbs rendered, or do they only show up in an editor like JOSM? James Andrewartha -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Franc Carter wrote: Hi all, The upload has completed (much faster running from dev). There were a couple of problems:-] thanks for letting us know its finished. my area is very bad - whether this is the council's fault or ABS fault I don't know, but the suburb boundaries are not right and I can't find any division between postcode 2680 and 2681. I don't know where the line is either, and probably not many people do know, as we don't have postal delivery and it isn't of practical importance. LIz ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
oops, not to the list On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 2:52 PM, Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.comwrote: I'm in the inner west of Sydney and am find that the boundaries are only *mostly correct* - so i'm not too surprised that outside the main cities they are a worse. Hopefully on a country wide basis it is still better than nothing. cheers On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 2:48 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Franc Carter wrote: Hi all, The upload has completed (much faster running from dev). There were a couple of problems:-] thanks for letting us know its finished. my area is very bad - whether this is the council's fault or ABS fault I don't know, but the suburb boundaries are not right and I can't find any division between postcode 2680 and 2681. I don't know where the line is either, and probably not many people do know, as we don't have postal delivery and it isn't of practical importance. LIz ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
Glad to see not all of NSW has been incorporated ;-) cheers On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Liz ed...@billiau.net wrote: On Sat, 21 Mar 2009, Franc Carter wrote: I noticed a small number of those in NSW and decided to ignore them and just put them, that might have been a bad idea NSW has a huge one, the unincorporated area ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
The Dept of Lands database was said to be 94% correct in 2007 and improving. Most of their errors relate to the house numbers on a street, and I would assume that their suburb boundaries are correct. This data should take precendence over ABS data. Regards, Narelle. 2009/3/8 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com: I wonder if this is because the data is/was off when it was created(2006) or because the boundaries have changed? On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. For NSW the Lands Department's Geospatial Portal http://gsp.maps.nsw.gov.au/ can show suburb boundaries in the cadastral layer. Of the area in question, where the ABS shows the boundary going neatly down the middle of my street, the NSW Lands Department shows the boundary between 1 street and 1/2 a street further south. That is, on the next street south, some houses are in my suburb, and some are in the next suburb. - Ben Kelley. 2009/3/6 Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com Hi. Any thoughts on how to work out the real boundary when the ABS data disagrees with commonly known boundaries? I don't know why I didn't notice this when I previewed the data, but the ABS data shows the boundary for my suburb going right down the middle of my street (when I believe it to be one street over). This puts my house in the next suburb over. I suspect the ABS data is wrong, but any thoughts on how to find out for sure? Franc - do you have a contact at the ABS who might be interested in corrections? - Ben Kelley. -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
I assumed it is copyrighted however, so not a valid source for OSM ;-( On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 11:23 PM, Narelle Irvine narelle.irv...@gmail.comwrote: The Dept of Lands database was said to be 94% correct in 2007 and improving. Most of their errors relate to the house numbers on a street, and I would assume that their suburb boundaries are correct. This data should take precendence over ABS data. Regards, Narelle. 2009/3/8 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com: I wonder if this is because the data is/was off when it was created(2006) or because the boundaries have changed? On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 8:47 AM, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. For NSW the Lands Department's Geospatial Portal http://gsp.maps.nsw.gov.au/ can show suburb boundaries in the cadastral layer. Of the area in question, where the ABS shows the boundary going neatly down the middle of my street, the NSW Lands Department shows the boundary between 1 street and 1/2 a street further south. That is, on the next street south, some houses are in my suburb, and some are in the next suburb. - Ben Kelley. 2009/3/6 Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com Hi. Any thoughts on how to work out the real boundary when the ABS data disagrees with commonly known boundaries? I don't know why I didn't notice this when I previewed the data, but the ABS data shows the boundary for my suburb going right down the middle of my street (when I believe it to be one street over). This puts my house in the next suburb over. I suspect the ABS data is wrong, but any thoughts on how to find out for sure? Franc - do you have a contact at the ABS who might be interested in corrections? - Ben Kelley. -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
Hi. 2009/3/8 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com I assumed it is copyrighted however, so not a valid source for OSM ;-( Yes I agree. Given the complicated nature of the boundary in this area (according to the Lands dept) I don't think copying their data without permission is a good idea (and their license would not allow this). The ABS boundary does actually disagree with the street signs though, so when the import is complete (it only has the relation for the suburb on one side of the boundary at present) I'll probably move it to be mid-way between the streets. This is a good approximation of the current local knowledge. - Ben Kelley. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
On Sat, 07 Mar 2009 23:51:35 +1100 b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote: Hi all, It's really nice to see suburb boundaries popping up around the place, it just makes the map look that little bit more professional. Yeah it is isn't it, Franc has done some nice work. There seems to be some naming redundancy in the NSW data though. The previous nswgnb import (before my time, don't know the source or history of this) placed suburb names all around the place, and now the ABS suburb import is repeating the data. An example of this is here: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-32.96227lon=151.65078zoom=16layers=B000FTF What are people's thoughts about this? Should the data be sanity checked for naming consistency then the nswgnb node deleted? Or should it be kept incase some renderer doesn't understand the suburb relation? Like perhaps it would be easier for the mkgmap devs to keep the nodes rather than have them write code to make a node from the relation. You've hit an interesting point here, one I've thought about a few times without coming to any reasonable answer myself. On the one hand we have the case where we leave around we're making allowances for any program that for whatever reason doesn't support 100% of the OSM data structures. On the other we're having multiple version of the same data which have to some how be kept consistent creating more maintenance of the data. After many years working with a number of databases I've found every un-necessary duplication of data leads to headaches, but there's inevitably going to be software that gets out of date and people are going to expect the data to change for it rather than update the software :/ I think what the boundaries need (and this is where a spot where it being a relation comes in handy) is a way to make a centre node, if the centre node is there then it can be assume it will display the name of the boundary, otherwise the renders should display their own boundary. This proposed option seems to be close to that kind of thing: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/add_center_in_Relation:boundary Of course then we'd have to get the renderers to recognize that fact on not render a centre text for a multipolygon with a 'centre' (unless they already do that?) (This has the benefit of moving the name display to a place more appropriate for the suburb rather than the exact centre of the area, I'm sure we can all thing of suburbs where the demographic centre isn't the physical centre) -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] suburb boundaries import - Darwin quirk
I was reminiscing about Darwin via OSM and noticed this boundary quirk. The boundary was created by ABS2006 on 1 Mar 09. I thought maybe the Casino had its own boundary but its actually the creek line. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-12.8lon=130.84079zoom=15layers=B000FTF Franc, I presume this will be an example of the minor touch ups needed polish of your great work? Or will the boundary probably make more sense as the nearby suburbs populate and the boundary takes its proper shape? Jeff. From: Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com To: Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com Cc: OSM Australian Talk List talk-au@openstreetmap.org Sent: Friday, 6 March, 2009 6:38:47 AM Subject: Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import I only have the licensing contact - I will follow up with her and see if I can get a content person. cheers On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. Any thoughts on how to work out the real boundary when the ABS data disagrees with commonly known boundaries? I don't know why I didn't notice this when I previewed the data, but the ABS data shows the boundary for my suburb going right down the middle of my street (when I believe it to be one street o ver). This puts my house in the next suburb over. I suspect the ABS data is wrong, but any thoughts on how to find out for sure? Franc - do you have a contact at the ABS who might be interested in corrections? - Ben Kelley. -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
Hi. For NSW the Lands Department's Geospatial Portal http://gsp.maps.nsw.gov.au/ can show suburb boundaries in the cadastral layer. Of the area in question, where the ABS shows the boundary going neatly down the middle of my street, the NSW Lands Department shows the boundary between 1 street and 1/2 a street further south. That is, on the next street south, some houses are in my suburb, and some are in the next suburb. - Ben Kelley. 2009/3/6 Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com Hi. Any thoughts on how to work out the real boundary when the ABS data disagrees with commonly known boundaries? I don't know why I didn't notice this when I previewed the data, but the ABS data shows the boundary for my suburb going right down the middle of my street (when I believe it to be one street over). This puts my house in the next suburb over. I suspect the ABS data is wrong, but any thoughts on how to find out for sure? Franc - do you have a contact at the ABS who might be interested in corrections? - Ben Kelley. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import - Darwin quirk
Hmm yeah - that looks pretty odd. It *might* be more sensible once the process has finished, but I'm not holding my breath. But please make sure you wait until the upload as finished, as I believe the bulk_upload will get confuse if things have changed when it comes back to reuse those borders cheers On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 8:28 AM, Jeff Price jeff.pr...@rocketmail.comwrote: I was reminiscing about Darwin via OSM and noticed this boundary quirk. The boundary was created by ABS2006 on 1 Mar 09. I thought maybe the Casino had its own boundary but its actually the creek line. http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-12.8lon=130.84079zoom=15layers=B000FTF Franc, I presume this will be an example of the minor touch ups needed polish of your great work? Or will the boundary probably make more sense as the nearby suburbs populate and the boundary takes its proper shape? Jeff. -- *From:* Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com *To:* Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com *Cc:* OSM Australian Talk List talk-au@openstreetmap.org *Sent:* Friday, 6 March, 2009 6:38:47 AM *Subject:* Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import I only have the licensing contact - I will follow up with her and see if I can get a content person. cheers On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. Any thoughts on how to work out the real boundary when the ABS data disagrees with commonly known boundaries? I don't know why I didn't notice this when I previewed the data, but the ABS data shows the boundary for my suburb going right down the middle of my street (when I believe it to be one street o ver). This puts my house in the next suburb over. I suspect the ABS data is wrong, but any thoughts on how to find out for sure? Franc - do you have a contact at the ABS who might be interested in corrections? - Ben Kelley. -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
Hi Ben, This raises an interesting copyright question. If, from multiple sources (Dept of Lands, UBD, ask the council/auspost etc) you can show that the ABS boundary is wrong how do we legally correct it? Without a sign on the ground that states the change of suburb we don't really have another free source of this data. I wonder what the legality is of reading lots of sources then just plonking source=knowledge in there. Brent (Biogenesis_) - Original Message - From: Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009 8:48 am Subject: Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import To: OSM Australian Talk List talk-au@openstreetmap.org, Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Hi. For NSW the Lands Department's Geospatial Portal http://gsp.maps.nsw.gov.au/ can show suburb boundaries in the cadastrallayer. Of the area in question, where the ABS shows the boundary going neatly down the middle of my street, the NSW Lands Department shows the boundary between 1 street and 1/2 a street further south. That is, on the next street south, some houses are in my suburb, and some are in the next suburb. - Ben Kelley. 2009/3/6 Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com Hi. Any thoughts on how to work out the real boundary when the ABS data disagrees with commonly known boundaries? I don't know why I didn't notice this when I previewed the data, but the ABS data shows the boundary for my suburb going right down the middle of my street (when I believe it to be one street over). This puts my house in the next suburb over. I suspect the ABS data is wrong, but any thoughts on how to find out for sure? Franc - do you have a contact at the ABS who might be interested in corrections? - Ben Kelley. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
Ask the people who live in the houses. ~Cameron 2009/3/8 b.schulz...@scu.edu.au Hi Ben, This raises an interesting copyright question. If, from multiple sources (Dept of Lands, UBD, ask the council/auspost etc) you can show that the ABS boundary is wrong how do we legally correct it? Without a sign on the ground that states the change of suburb we don't really have another free source of this data. I wonder what the legality is of reading lots of sources then just plonking source=knowledge in there. Brent (Biogenesis_) - Original Message - From: Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com Date: Sunday, March 8, 2009 8:48 am Subject: Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import To: OSM Australian Talk List talk-au@openstreetmap.org, Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Hi. For NSW the Lands Department's Geospatial Portal http://gsp.maps.nsw.gov.au/ can show suburb boundaries in the cadastrallayer. Of the area in question, where the ABS shows the boundary going neatly down the middle of my street, the NSW Lands Department shows the boundary between 1 street and 1/2 a street further south. That is, on the next street south, some houses are in my suburb, and some are in the next suburb. - Ben Kelley. 2009/3/6 Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com Hi. Any thoughts on how to work out the real boundary when the ABS data disagrees with commonly known boundaries? I don't know why I didn't notice this when I previewed the data, but the ABS data shows the boundary for my suburb going right down the middle of my street (when I believe it to be one street over). This puts my house in the next suburb over. I suspect the ABS data is wrong, but any thoughts on how to find out for sure? Franc - do you have a contact at the ABS who might be interested in corrections? - Ben Kelley. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
Hi. Any thoughts on how to work out the real boundary when the ABS data disagrees with commonly known boundaries? I don't know why I didn't notice this when I previewed the data, but the ABS data shows the boundary for my suburb going right down the middle of my street (when I believe it to be one street over). This puts my house in the next suburb over. I suspect the ABS data is wrong, but any thoughts on how to find out for sure? Franc - do you have a contact at the ABS who might be interested in corrections? - Ben Kelley. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
I only have the licensing contact - I will follow up with her and see if I can get a content person. cheers On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. Any thoughts on how to work out the real boundary when the ABS data disagrees with commonly known boundaries? I don't know why I didn't notice this when I previewed the data, but the ABS data shows the boundary for my suburb going right down the middle of my street (when I believe it to be one street o ver). This puts my house in the next suburb over. I suspect the ABS data is wrong, but any thoughts on how to find out for sure? Franc - do you have a contact at the ABS who might be interested in corrections? - Ben Kelley. -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] suburb boundaries import
Hi Franc, I've just noticed that the ABS boundary going straight up Wagonga Inlet (at Narooma) doesn't have a relation associated with it. The boundaries of Bungendore and Tarago look pretty good although there may be a bit of a gap bwtween them. The ones done in ACT so far look spot on (Macquarie, Richardson). Cheers Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] suburb boundaries import
PS This is a very big suburb but it appears that it may not have completed correctly since the bit just North of Tuross Heads has all the nodes in place but the ways aren't there. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
You ripper! How long are we looking at for the whole import? - Original Message - From: Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009 1:43 pm Subject: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org talk-au@openstreetmap.org Is now running, please leave anything with source=ABS_2006 alone until the import is complete cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:30 PM, b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote: Wow, that's almost a month. Well, keep us all posted :). This is rather exciting! Ok, that's nerdy, but we're on OSM so it's allowed, right? Yeah - the latency from here to the UK is just nasty. I'll send out updates interesting milestones. Do you know what area it is uploading? As in, can you link to a nicely rendered area once part of the upload is done? Not really, the upload is happening based of the order of extraction from a perl hash table which is effectively random cheers Apologies for the disjointed writing, I should be asleep. - Original Message - From: Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import To: b.schulz...@scu.edu.au Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Quite a while going on the current rate. The estimate from bulk_upload is 647 hours - but the estimate is still not particularly stable. cheers On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:06 PM, b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote: You ripper! How long are we looking at for the whole import? - Original Message - From: Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009 1:43 pm Subject: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org talk-au@openstreetmap.org Is now running, please leave anything with source=ABS_2006 alone until the import is complete cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
Yep, but I didn't have any luck finding a server to do it from - my inquiry on the dev list didn't get any response cheers On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:38 PM, Cameron osm-mailing-li...@justcameron.comwrote: Could it be interrupted and run on a server in the UK (or even better, on an OSM server in the same location as the db server?) ~Cameron 2009/3/1 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:30 PM, b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote: Wow, that's almost a month. Well, keep us all posted :). This is rather exciting! Ok, that's nerdy, but we're on OSM so it's allowed, right? Yeah - the latency from here to the UK is just nasty. I'll send out updates interesting milestones. Do you know what area it is uploading? As in, can you link to a nicely rendered area once part of the upload is done? Not really, the upload is happening based of the order of extraction from a perl hash table which is effectively random cheers Apologies for the disjointed writing, I should be asleep. - Original Message - From: Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import To: b.schulz...@scu.edu.au Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Quite a while going on the current rate. The estimate from bulk_upload is 647 hours - but the estimate is still not particularly stable. cheers On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:06 PM, b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote: You ripper! How long are we looking at for the whole import? - Original Message - From: Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009 1:43 pm Subject: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org talk-au@openstreetmap.org Is now running, please leave anything with source=ABS_2006 alone until the import is complete cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import
Could it be interrupted and run on a server in the UK (or even better, on an OSM server in the same location as the db server?) ~Cameron 2009/3/1 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:30 PM, b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote: Wow, that's almost a month. Well, keep us all posted :). This is rather exciting! Ok, that's nerdy, but we're on OSM so it's allowed, right? Yeah - the latency from here to the UK is just nasty. I'll send out updates interesting milestones. Do you know what area it is uploading? As in, can you link to a nicely rendered area once part of the upload is done? Not really, the upload is happening based of the order of extraction from a perl hash table which is effectively random cheers Apologies for the disjointed writing, I should be asleep. - Original Message - From: Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009 11:14 pm Subject: Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import To: b.schulz...@scu.edu.au Cc: talk-au@openstreetmap.org Quite a while going on the current rate. The estimate from bulk_upload is 647 hours - but the estimate is still not particularly stable. cheers On Sun, Mar 1, 2009 at 11:06 PM, b.schulz...@scu.edu.au wrote: You ripper! How long are we looking at for the whole import? - Original Message - From: Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009 1:43 pm Subject: [talk-au] suburb boundaries import To: talk-au@openstreetmap.org talk-au@openstreetmap.org Is now running, please leave anything with source=ABS_2006 alone until the import is complete cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] suburb boundaries import
Is now running, please leave anything with source=ABS_2006 alone until the import is complete cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
Suburb boundaries would not move that often, if that is all that is available, I vote to put it in. On 25/02/2009, Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: The data will be tagged as reviewed=no to indicate that a person has no confirmed that it is 'correct'. In the case if the Suburb boundaries I doubt it is actually possible to confirm the majority of the data 'on the ground' as their is no magical line on the ground. The data that will be imported is being provided by a government department (the ABS) who create it from the official source (the LGA). While the data is not 100% because it is a few years old, from the reviews of the data it looks pretty good. So, I see no way of getting a better set of information for this data set. On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:05 AM, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.auwrote: Hi all, No comment on the tag structure offered in the linked website, but I would like to stress that if you are importing mass data, that you clearly mark it as inaccurate, unless you have collected the data yourself by survey. There is nothing worse than a map of imported data (especially boundaries) that are indicated as correct when theyre not even close, due to importing old data or data with unknown faults. This has come up before from people importing mass data. Personally, I believe that OSM's strength is that most data is from personal survey, rather than just blindly imported from another database, and the mass importation of data, then means we not only have to survey, but also have to verify that data other people entered, is infact correct. Id rather have a 100% accurate map, than a 100% complete map. Then again, if you mean 'importing' from your own dataset of survey info, then by all means Im in agreeance with the move. Anyone else got a thought on the issue? David On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 00:15 +1100, Franc Carter wrote: Hi folks, I am ready to start the import of the suburb boundaries. So could you please have one last look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data#OSM_Representation and let me know of any issues, barring any objections I'll start the import soon(ish) cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
I know very little about the rendering, but I would suspect not. each boundary is going to divide two suburbs and may of them are quite short - so I would expect that representing them on a generic map is quite difficult to do. cheers On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Luke Woolley lswool...@gmail.com wrote: I am stoked that the import will soon commence, but I have one query. I can't remember if this has already been asked but do the boundaries of a suburb render the name of the suburb, like the place=suburb tag currently does for tagged nodes or will it just show those fancy purple lines on the map. Thanks. On 25/02/2009, at 9:16 PM, Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: I *believe* that it is a subdivision of a state. Sydney in an addressing sense refers to the CBD of the city (the area with post code 2000). cheers On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:12 PM, Nick Hocking nick.hock...@gmail.com nick.hock...@gmail.com wrote: I say go for it. Although I am 150% percent against any mass loading or routable things (like roads) I think that suburbs are best done by this import and then we have to try to validate the boundaries, maybe doorknock both sides of the alledged boundary and see if people know which suburb they are in. PS is a suburb a subdivision of a city or a state. E.G should Prospect be in Adelaide;South Australia;Australia ... or should it be in South Australia; Australia In Canberra it sounds better to say Turner, ACT than Turner, Canberra, ACT but I'm not so sure for larger cities. Maybe because there is only one city in the ACT. Nick ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.orgTalk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 22:50:20 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: I know very little about the rendering, but I would suspect not. each boundary is going to divide two suburbs and may of them are quite short - so I would expect that representing them on a generic map is quite difficult to do. Observe this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-34.7875lon=138.6422zoom=14layers=B000FTF You can see 2 Parafields, 1 grey (the place= one) and 1 black (the relation based one). You can also see a black '5107' from a postcode boundary I've put in in that area too. So the answer is yes it will render. -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:33:09 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: Nice. Do you want me to try to exclude some suburbs so as to not overlay the areas you have already done ? Nah, there's only about a dozen that I've got fully completed and they're all close enough together I'll just review what's there and merge the 2 sets of data as part of the manual review process. There's probably another 2 dozen that I've only got partial boundaries of so we'll need the abs data to finish them off anyway. -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] suburb boundaries
The data will be tagged as reviewed=no to indicate that a person has no confirmed that it is 'correct'. In the case if the Suburb boundaries I doubt it is actually possible to confirm the majority of the data 'on the ground' as their is no magical line on the ground. The data that will be imported is being provided by a government department (the ABS) who create it from the official source (the LGA). While the data is not 100% because it is a few years old, from the reviews of the data it looks pretty good. So, I see no way of getting a better set of information for this data set. On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:05 AM, David Murn da...@incanberra.com.auwrote: Hi all, No comment on the tag structure offered in the linked website, but I would like to stress that if you are importing mass data, that you clearly mark it as inaccurate, unless you have collected the data yourself by survey. There is nothing worse than a map of imported data (especially boundaries) that are indicated as correct when theyre not even close, due to importing old data or data with unknown faults. This has come up before from people importing mass data. Personally, I believe that OSM's strength is that most data is from personal survey, rather than just blindly imported from another database, and the mass importation of data, then means we not only have to survey, but also have to verify that data other people entered, is infact correct. Id rather have a 100% accurate map, than a 100% complete map. Then again, if you mean 'importing' from your own dataset of survey info, then by all means Im in agreeance with the move. Anyone else got a thought on the issue? David On Wed, 2009-02-25 at 00:15 +1100, Franc Carter wrote: Hi folks, I am ready to start the import of the suburb boundaries. So could you please have one last look at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ABS_Data#OSM_Representation and let me know of any issues, barring any objections I'll start the import soon(ish) cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries - getting close
BlueMM bluemm1975-...@yahoo.com wrote: I also like Jack's suggestion on name old_name, plus the is_in tag. +1 for the is_in tag from me, definitely with , Australia appended. My reasons are pretty selfish - My choice of GPS software is Navit and it requires the is_in tag to search for towns. I'd be happy enough to try to modify the software to not require is_in but I haven't seen a better solution. -- Sam Couter | mailto:s...@couter.id.au OpenPGP fingerprint: A46B 9BB5 3148 7BEA 1F05 5BD5 8530 03AE DE89 C75C signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Suburb boundaries - getting close
Ok, it seems my conversion script is now producing sane results so it's time to work out what the final output should look like. The first question that I think we need to answer is, how do we represent the data in OSM, there appears to be 3 options:- 1. Closed ways 2. Relations 3. Borders with a left/right tag Then we need to decide on what tags to apply to the data. The raw data has three fields * STATE_2006 A numerical identifier for the state the suburb is in * SSC_2006An identifier provided by the ABS * NAME_2006 The name of the suburb, which may have the old name in '()' after it. So, my initial proposal for tags is:- * name=? (with any old name removed) * source=Based_on_Australian_Bureau_of_Statistics _data (ABS ask for this) * ABS:reviewed=no * ABS:STATE_2006=? * ABS:NAME_2006=? * ABS:SSC_2006=? The 'ABS' part is just a suggestion - It's a bit short for my liking We also need to decide where these tags go - nodes, ways, relations. And if we go for the left/right approach a decision on how to -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries - getting close
On Mon, 16 Feb 2009 22:09:15 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, it seems my conversion script is now producing sane results so it's time to work out what the final output should look like. The first question that I think we need to answer is, how do we represent the data in OSM, there appears to be 3 options:- 1. Closed ways 2. Relations 3. Borders with a left/right tag My vote is for #2, and I'd be strongly against the use of #3 since it's essentially the system #2 set out to replace and is so dependant on way direction and making adjoining suburbs all match directions vs left/right will be painful. #1 is a fine choice in city regions but I think it will cause ways to be too large in country regions, it also prevents someone telling which suburbs a boundary way lies in. Then we need to decide on what tags to apply to the data. The raw data has three fields * STATE_2006 A numerical identifier for the state the suburb is in * SSC_2006An identifier provided by the ABS * NAME_2006 The name of the suburb, which may have the old name in '()' after it. So, my initial proposal for tags is:- * name=? (with any old name removed) * source=Based_on_Australian_Bureau_of_Statistics _data (ABS ask for this) * ABS:reviewed=no * ABS:STATE_2006=? * ABS:NAME_2006=? * ABS:SSC_2006=? The 'ABS' part is just a suggestion - It's a bit short for my liking My thought: Make it au:ABS:... that way it flags it as an Australian thing, and within Australia I don't think there's too many multiple uses of 'ABS' in this context :) We also need to decide where these tags go - nodes, ways, relations. And if we go for the left/right approach a decision on how to I think how far 'down' the tagging goes depends on how we want to handle the update every 4 years. - If we plan to do a point by point check each time then we probably need to tag each node with a unique ID number to detect changes. - If we plan to do more of a diffing of the 2 data sets and updating changes only then we can probably get away with just tagging the data to the ways. I think the 2nd option is going to work better for us in the long run (given how much adjusting the boundaries are looking to need anyway). Of course if we choose option #2 above then I think both ways and relations will need to be tagged, although the ways will only need the source= tag and the unique ID #. -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries - getting close
Hi hi, Firstly, having suburb boundaries will allow OSM to be even closer to a UBD replacement :). Anyway, my vote would go for relations. Yes, they're tricky and a lot of people don't understand them but given the current OSM data model they're the right choice. My main argument for relations is that suburb boundaries have a tendency to be defined in terms of roads, creeks etc and including these existing ways will greatly reduce the processing load on OSM. Also, having 3 ways in close proximity (eg, 2 suburb boundaries either side of a road) will get rather ugly when editing. Especially in the flash editor where selecting closely spaced objects can be difficult. Whichever data method is used though this will be a great boost to the OSM dataset, your effort is appreciated. - Original Message - From: Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com Date: Monday, February 16, 2009 10:10 pm Subject: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries - getting close To: OSM Australian Talk List talk-au@openstreetmap.org Ok, it seems my conversion script is now producing sane results so it's time to work out what the final output should look like. The first question that I think we need to answer is, how do we representthe data in OSM, there appears to be 3 options:- 1. Closed ways 2. Relations 3. Borders with a left/right tag Then we need to decide on what tags to apply to the data. The raw data has three fields * STATE_2006 A numerical identifier for the state the suburb is in * SSC_2006 An identifier provided by the ABS * NAME_2006 The name of the suburb, which may have the old name in '()' after it. So, my initial proposal for tags is:- * name=? (with any old name removed) * source=Based_on_Australian_Bureau_of_Statistics _data (ABS ask for this) * ABS:reviewed=no * ABS:STATE_2006=? * ABS:NAME_2006=? * ABS:SSC_2006=? The 'ABS' part is just a suggestion - It's a bit short for my liking We also need to decide where these tags go - nodes, ways, relations. And if we go for the left/right approach a decision on how to -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries - getting close
Franc Carter franc.car...@... writes: Ok, it seems my conversion script is now producing sane results so it's time to work out what the final output should look like. The first question that I think we need to answer is, how do we represent the data in OSM, there appears to be 3 options:- 1. Closed ways 2. Relations 3. Borders with a left/right tag Then we need to decide on what tags to apply to the data. The raw data has three fields * STATE_2006 A numerical identifier for the state the suburb is in * SSC_2006 An identifier provided by the ABS * NAME_2006 The name of the suburb, which may have the old name in '()' after it. So, my initial proposal for tags is:- * name=? (with any old name removed) * source=Based_on_Australian_Bureau_of_Statistics _data (ABS ask for this) * ABS:reviewed=no * ABS:STATE_2006=? * ABS:NAME_2006=? * ABS:SSC_2006=? The 'ABS' part is just a suggestion - It's a bit short for my liking We also need to decide where these tags go - nodes, ways, relations. And if we go for the left/right approach a decision on how to -- Franc +1 for Relations (I'm in the Darren camp on this one) I also like Jack's suggestion on name old_name, plus the is_in tag. Given Darren's suggestion for au:ABS, I wonder if there are any examples of country namespaced tags? Obviously ABS is not likely to be unique, maybe ABS_au or Jack's abs.gov.au? I think I like abs.gov.au the best (eg. abs.gov.au:SSC_2006). What is the purpose of ABS:reviewed=no tag? Is it to check for obvious data errors (like Darren pointed out for the industrial estate - assuming it's obvious)? Other than that, at this point we don't really have any other source for this data, so how could we possibly review boundaries? Assuming we go with the relations option, and ABS:SSC_2006 is tagged on the relation, what unique id to we tag the individual ways with? Wouldn't most ways be derived from 2 closed-area shapes, therefore ABS:SSC_2006 would have to be a combination of the parents id's (which might not be unique when converted anyway). I think once we get our import plan finalised (conversion of ways, tagging scheme etc.) we should update the wiki and post on the Talk mailing list with the plan, to hopefully get some comments from veteran importers (like Tiger the midway Canada importers). BlueMM ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
A quick update. David Dean found a bug, which I am working on. I'll let you know once I have a fix. cheers On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 2:44 PM, Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.comwrote: After some nashing of teeth and swearing I have script that converts the ABS data in to a set of non-overlapping ways with some minimal info on the ways. I'd like some volunteers who I can give some subset of the data to (name your subrubs/areas) to have a look over and see if it 'looks ok' (i.e correct enough and no pathological cases I have missed). Then, we can start making some more solid decisions about exactly what form we want the data uploaded in. cheers -- Franc -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 23:21:11 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: I'll have a think about whether can I work out something clever to see how well postcode boundaries match suburb boundaries. I suspect I am not going to be able to process both the suburb and post code data together to get one nice import as the size of the data blows the memory on my machine away (4GB). I wasn't meaning import the data together, just that a few people taking the suburb boundary data and applying which postcode each suburb is in could derive the postcode boundaries from that relatively easily. Give some people who might not be able to get out and collect data something constructive to do :) -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Suburb boundaries
After some nashing of teeth and swearing I have script that converts the ABS data in to a set of non-overlapping ways with some minimal info on the ways. I'd like some volunteers who I can give some subset of the data to (name your subrubs/areas) to have a look over and see if it 'looks ok' (i.e correct enough and no pathological cases I have missed). Then, we can start making some more solid decisions about exactly what form we want the data uploaded in. cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
Franc, I'd be happy to look at the suburb data for Brisbane. Send it my way. - David Franc Carter-2 wrote: After some nashing of teeth and swearing I have script that converts the ABS data in to a set of non-overlapping ways with some minimal info on the ways. I'd like some volunteers who I can give some subset of the data to (name your subrubs/areas) to have a look over and see if it 'looks ok' (i.e correct enough and no pathological cases I have missed). Then, we can start making some more solid decisions about exactly what form we want the data uploaded in. cheers -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Suburb-boundaries-tp21989638p21990489.html Sent from the OpenStreetMap - Australian Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:44:50 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: After some nashing of teeth and swearing I have script that converts the ABS data in to a set of non-overlapping ways with some minimal info on the ways. I'd like some volunteers who I can give some subset of the data to (name your subrubs/areas) to have a look over and see if it 'looks ok' (i.e correct enough and no pathological cases I have missed). Then, we can start making some more solid decisions about exactly what form we want the data uploaded in. I'll have a look at the Northern Suburbs of Adelaide if you like, compare them to the existing data I've put together :D (Elizabeth *, Salisbury * and Munno Para * if you need a list of names to match :) -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 2009-02-05 at 19:30 +1030, Darrin Smith wrote: Of course I only found out recently not only does S.A. have Hundreds as a land administration boundary but they also have Counties. Of course sourcing that information for a free source could be extremely tricky :D http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadastral_divisions_of_Australia covers the various divisions - counties, hundreds, parishes, land districts etc. You may also be interested in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrens_Title which suggests the state land registries are the people to contact, but they're usually operated on a cost recovery basis. For example, WA has datasets including road centrelines, property street address: http://www.landgate.wa.gov.au/corporate.nsf/web/Fundamental +Datasets?OpenDocument http://www.walis.wa.gov.au/resources/gis_resources/web_mapping.html/ has guidelines on web mapping using these datasets, but they don't really account for OSM usage, so ministerial pressure might have to be sought. James Andrewartha ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, BlueMM wrote: Apparently there was a big push for unification of suburb postcode boundaries a few years back by the governmental spatial agencies. I believe it hasn't been completed, parts of NT didn't correspond. we have one postcode here for many places - 8 distinct places inside one postcode and a few postcodes which also have a lot of places in them in areas outside of the town boundaries its likely that the postcodes cross shire boundaries as well ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 2009-02-05 at 21:16 +1030, Darrin Smith wrote: Futher to this I was looking back through this thread (thinking maybe about having a look at the data myself) and I James said: It's described as These boundaries have been based upon localities gazetted by the Geographic Place name authority current at the time of the Census. So it's always going to be out-of-date anyway and updated every 4 years, it's not going to change often. But it's a much better start than what we have now :) Very good point. I agree now that there's not much point trying to automate updates as the ABS dataset changes - that could be accomplished faster by just manually updating changes as when gazzetted (so long as someone keeps an eye on each Gazette, but that shouldn't be a problem spread across all the Aussie mappers) [Anyone know what the status is of the copyright (if any) on the Gazette itself?]. I still prefer the idea of areas rather than relations for suburb boundaries in general, for a whole bunch of reasons states earlier (which I won't bore the list with again), but I guess that's just something we'll probably always have differing opinions on... Regards, Jack. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 9:23 PM, Cameron osm-mailing-li...@justcameron.comwrote: How much do suburbs change anyway? Perhaps any changes could simply be introduced manually. ~Cameron I suspect this is true, changing large numbers of suburbs sounds unlikely. If we had suddenly had a new set of this data (say at the next census) then my first thought would be to just 'diff' the two sets in some way. Of course if they change the the format is supplied in or there are subtle changes in say the signifiant digits or node ordering then the whole thing gets harder. cheers 2009/2/5 Darrin Smith bel...@beldin.org On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:23:07 +1030 Jack Burton j...@saosce.com.au wrote: Consider two suburbs, A B, whose boundary is currently defined by a river. Now let's say that by the time the next ABS update occurs, that boundary has changed, and a small part of what used to be suburb A has become part of suburb B (it can happen). Since the ABS data contains only suburb boundaries (and no separate way for the river itself), and we're using multiple segments per boundary, and someone has helpfully merged that boundary segment with the way that forms the river (as I think you suggested earlier, to avoid stacking up ways on top of each other), there'd be no method for the update mechanism to know whether the course of the river itself has changed (and therefore so has the boundary segment, so it should move the way that defines both) or whether the river has stayed where it was but the boundary no longer uses that part of it (so it should split ways, create a new one, then add it to the boundary relation). This is an automated process, if it can be explain logically the computer can be made to do it. As I said before, as soon as any points are moved things become complicated anyway. If I were implementing this part of it (note Franc is only talking about a one-time import at this stage anyway, so we are talking somewhat theoretically): I'd uniquely identify each common boundary between 2 suburbs that we make a way. Use a diff mechanism to detect a change on said boundary, and look at the data, updating and adjusting a way that hasn't been modified at all and removing and replacing the way if it's been changed beyond the ability to adjust. With a single closed way around each suburb, the problem does not arise, since the update process does not need to care about the river itself (and should be clever enough to detect that another way uses some of the existing nodes, so duplicate those nodes instead of moving them). You fob it off so simply but there's a lot of work in your solution also. Following your example any time a minor change happens to a suburb it's likely to re-align every node on the boundary back to the original place, in fact it will most likely have to remove re-add the entire way since it won't be sure which nodes are which any more, someone could have added more, removed some, etc. You could tag every node I guess, but seems a lot of bloat for small gain, and similar gains would be made to the relation model with individual tags anyway. So we have the boundary solution which when a boundary changes only has to modify 1 shorter way along the common boundary between the suburbs that change or the way solution which most likely requires the whole way to be replaced on an update, possibly removing other adjustments made on other parts of the way. From this point of view the boundary solution requires less far reaching changes than the area solution. Of course any unique ID is risky anyway because it can be accidentally removed, but that's the risk I guess :D -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:23:07 +1030 Jack Burton j...@saosce.com.au wrote: Consider two suburbs, A B, whose boundary is currently defined by a river. Now let's say that by the time the next ABS update occurs, that boundary has changed, and a small part of what used to be suburb A has become part of suburb B (it can happen). Since the ABS data contains only suburb boundaries (and no separate way for the river itself), and we're using multiple segments per boundary, and someone has helpfully merged that boundary segment with the way that forms the river (as I think you suggested earlier, to avoid stacking up ways on top of each other), there'd be no method for the update mechanism to know whether the course of the river itself has changed (and therefore so has the boundary segment, so it should move the way that defines both) or whether the river has stayed where it was but the boundary no longer uses that part of it (so it should split ways, create a new one, then add it to the boundary relation). This is an automated process, if it can be explain logically the computer can be made to do it. As I said before, as soon as any points are moved things become complicated anyway. If I were implementing this part of it (note Franc is only talking about a one-time import at this stage anyway, so we are talking somewhat theoretically): I'd uniquely identify each common boundary between 2 suburbs that we make a way. Use a diff mechanism to detect a change on said boundary, and look at the data, updating and adjusting a way that hasn't been modified at all and removing and replacing the way if it's been changed beyond the ability to adjust. With a single closed way around each suburb, the problem does not arise, since the update process does not need to care about the river itself (and should be clever enough to detect that another way uses some of the existing nodes, so duplicate those nodes instead of moving them). You fob it off so simply but there's a lot of work in your solution also. Following your example any time a minor change happens to a suburb it's likely to re-align every node on the boundary back to the original place, in fact it will most likely have to remove re-add the entire way since it won't be sure which nodes are which any more, someone could have added more, removed some, etc. You could tag every node I guess, but seems a lot of bloat for small gain, and similar gains would be made to the relation model with individual tags anyway. So we have the boundary solution which when a boundary changes only has to modify 1 shorter way along the common boundary between the suburbs that change or the way solution which most likely requires the whole way to be replaced on an update, possibly removing other adjustments made on other parts of the way. From this point of view the boundary solution requires less far reaching changes than the area solution. Of course any unique ID is risky anyway because it can be accidentally removed, but that's the risk I guess :D -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:53:01 +1030 Cameron osm-mailing-li...@justcameron.com wrote: How much do suburbs change anyway? Perhaps any changes could simply be introduced manually. ~Cameron Yeah I did think that might be an easier solution, I was addressing automatic updates because jackb brought them up :) And as soon as we modify them in any way (align with road for example) I think it probably comes out the more appealing however we put it in initially. I know for example the SA Gazette tends to provide information about suburb boundary changes, probably before they make into the ABS structures. I imagine the other states have similar channels. -- =b ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
I just had a conversation with a really helpful person at the ABS. She indicated that the ABS is taking a view of the data that is very similar/compatible with (at least my understanding) the view that OpenStreetMap is taking towards the data. Specifically she indicated that the ABS was not specifically concerned that attribution was done in a specific manner, just that the attribution was able to be found. She will put something in an email so that we have an official statement. So, it looks like we may well have a some valuable data to add, which is good because I already spent a couple of hours working out hot to import it ;-) There are two issues that I have come across with converting to osm:- 1. What way do we want to represent the data, e.g closed ways or relations consisting of borders - something else ? 2. The more technical problem that the boundaries are defined fairly precisely (or more accurately there are lots of points defining the boundaries). So the .osm file is very large - so eyeballing it in josm is not going to work. So I'm interested in people's suggestions of how we want to represent the data and on methods we can use to sanity check the data before we upload it. cheers On Sat, Jan 31, 2009 at 6:23 AM, James Churchill pel...@gmail.com wrote: Franc Carter franc.car...@... writes: While putting together an email for this I came across an issue. Currently OSM is Creative Commons licensed which looks pretty compatible with their license (ignoring the practicalities of attribution). However the license is being discussed at the moment and may well soon change and/or split. Should I wait until the license issue gets 'sorted' ? I don't see a problem - the CC license the data is under only requires attribution, it doesn't restrict what the license of the derivative work is. And as OSM is looking for a license that (and I quote) needs to give our database the same three basic licensing elements (freely copiable; share-alike; attribution required) as it has at present there's little worry of OSM becoming incompatible. At least, the matter shouldn't delay inquiries :) - James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:26:13 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: There are two issues that I have come across with converting to osm:- 1. What way do we want to represent the data, e.g closed ways or relations consisting of borders - something else ? I'd personally prefer border relations. But given Franc and I seem to be the only significant creators of relations in .au anyway (A search of the australia.osm reveals we're the only two with 100 relations) I don't think the majority of regular osm mappers have got relations yet. However I think relations are the way data like this is going in OSM. 2. The more technical problem that the boundaries are defined fairly precisely (or more accurately there are lots of points defining the boundaries). So the .osm file is very large - so eyeballing it in josm is not going to work. So I'm interested in people's suggestions of how we want to represent the data and on methods we can use to sanity check the data before we upload it. Lots of the cases are along roads/rivers/railways I imagine to make them align with what we actually have on the map, lots of review is going to have to happen once it's actually in the map anyway. Given nearly all suburb boundaries are multiples (one suburb on each side). I'd think 1 way for a common boundary between 2 suburbs and joining up all those ways for each suburb in a relation would be the way to go. Then people can review them in areas where there's existing data and re-align them down the middle of roads they run along or remove the chunks than overlap single ways and add those ways to the boundary. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:52:43 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: From a 'philosophical point of view', I tend to agree that suburbs are made of a set of boundaries between adjacent areas. This was not how I did it in my first (very quick) attempt ;-( An advantage of having to sort out the legal issue means you get a bit of time to fiddle around trying out options before you get the full a-ok and import it ;) The data is in shapefiles that define each suburb boundary individually, so I'll have a think about how to extract out the individual borders (suggestions welcome) Hmm, so there's no real surety that 2 adjacent suburbs even share the same boundary? Perhaps then the single area option might have some merit from a 'getting the data in there' point of view or we write a convoluted script to correlate things... One question about aligning them that springs to mind is 'what should we align' - I wonder if the accuracy of the data is better than the average accuracy of a gps or yahoo imagery. That's a tricky question because it might be more 'accurate' because it might measure to an exact positional definition but is that useful or relevant to the OSM structure whereby a boundary down the middle of the road is more conceptually accurate Guess we have to get a small sample of the data into a city somewhere where we have plenty of GPS as a trial run (once we have the full ok). and see how it correlates to reality. GPS + Yahoo never correlate enough (at least in SA) to make it possible for both to be relevant :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
I did some basic sanity checking in my quick script and there is a lot of points that are doubled up (i.e have the same lat/lon) which indicates that the data does form sensible/consistent boundaries. My 'intuition' is that the shape=boundary problem is solvable, I'll just need to put some thought in to it - actually as I write this, I think I know the approach ;-) Solving this will also help with one of the other issues that I came across, which was 'curve simplification'. There are vast numbers of redundant points in many of the boundaries where they make no difference to the shape. However doing curve simplification on closed shapes with shared boundaries results in different points being removed from the two boundaries. Small samples sounds like a good first approach - I have lots of gps tracks for the area I live in that were taken with a roof mounted aerial, so I have a reasonably high level of confidence in them cheers On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Darrin Smith bel...@beldin.org wrote: On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 15:52:43 +1100 Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: From a 'philosophical point of view', I tend to agree that suburbs are made of a set of boundaries between adjacent areas. This was not how I did it in my first (very quick) attempt ;-( An advantage of having to sort out the legal issue means you get a bit of time to fiddle around trying out options before you get the full a-ok and import it ;) The data is in shapefiles that define each suburb boundary individually, so I'll have a think about how to extract out the individual borders (suggestions welcome) Hmm, so there's no real surety that 2 adjacent suburbs even share the same boundary? Perhaps then the single area option might have some merit from a 'getting the data in there' point of view or we write a convoluted script to correlate things... One question about aligning them that springs to mind is 'what should we align' - I wonder if the accuracy of the data is better than the average accuracy of a gps or yahoo imagery. That's a tricky question because it might be more 'accurate' because it might measure to an exact positional definition but is that useful or relevant to the OSM structure whereby a boundary down the middle of the road is more conceptually accurate Guess we have to get a small sample of the data into a city somewhere where we have plenty of GPS as a trial run (once we have the full ok). and see how it correlates to reality. GPS + Yahoo never correlate enough (at least in SA) to make it possible for both to be relevant :) ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 2009-02-05 at 14:26 +1100, Franc Carter wrote: I just had a conversation with a really helpful person at the ABS. She indicated that the ABS is taking a view of the data that is very similar/compatible with (at least my understanding) the view that OpenStreetMap is taking towards the data. Specifically she indicated that the ABS was not specifically concerned that attribution was done in a specific manner, just that the attribution was able to be found. She will put something in an email so that we have an official statement. So, it looks like we may well have a some valuable data to add, which is good because I already spent a couple of hours working out hot to import it ;-) That's great news! There are two issues that I have come across with converting to osm:- 1. What way do we want to represent the data, e.g closed ways or relations consisting of borders - something else ? Closed ways (areas) - as that's how ABS define them, so it will make merging updated ABS data into the OSM Australia dataset (each time ABS update their dataset, which is presumably quite regularly) significantly easier. 2. The more technical problem that the boundaries are defined fairly precisely (or more accurately there are lots of points defining the boundaries). So the .osm file is very large - so eyeballing it in josm is not going to work. So I'm interested in people's suggestions of how we want to represent the data and on methods we can use to sanity check the data before we upload it. Might I suggest that trying to verify the entire set of Australian suburb boundaries by inspection would seem an impossible task anyway - wouldn't be able to see the wood for the trees. For sanity checking purposes, why not split the generated OSM file up into a bunch of small, managable areas - then pick one you know really well and check it out in josm. If you're concerned that areas you don't know well might need checking too, perhaps put the whole lot on a webserver somewhere and ask on the list for other mappers to download check out areas they know well too before doing the bulk upload to OSM? Regards, Jack. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:29:39 +1030 Jack Burton j...@saosce.com.au wrote: 1. What way do we want to represent the data, e.g closed ways or relations consisting of borders - something else ? Closed ways (areas) - as that's how ABS define them, so it will make merging updated ABS data into the OSM Australia dataset (each time ABS update their dataset, which is presumably quite regularly) significantly easier. This isn't really relevant. Given the amount of data involved an automated process will have to be developed to bring it all in, so this process can just be re-utilised on any update. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:18:53 +1030 Jack Burton j...@saosce.com.au wrote: But I'm still not a fan of relations for suburb boundaries - even more so, now that we know that the authoritative set for Australia (the ABS data) is organised as a set of polygons (one for each suburb), since we'll presumably want to continue using this dataset for updates (e.g. when new suburbs appear, or old ones are split up/consolidated/renamed/etc.). This could be accomplished really easily if each item of ABS data was tagged with a source_ref:ABS (or whatever) set to corresponding object id from the ABS dataset (I'm assuming it uses such things - most large datasets do). And as soon as we edit that data in any way, such as you yourself suggest doing lower down in your reply, then updates from ABS are only ever going to be able to be imported as diffs - a straight 'update to these values' will break any adjusted edges and move other ways around. This will require extensive processing and either option can be handled at that time. You also assume the ABS is actually going to be (a) recently up to date (b) accurate, I'm not holding my breath on either, so blindly syncing with any changes they make is not necessarily wise. It still seems to me that the simplest possible set of data to define a suburb is the location of its town centre (a single node) and the outline of its boundary (a single way). [And we already have most of the nodes for NSW towns/suburbs in the OSM dataset, from another bulk import of government data - adding suburb areas from the ABS data would give us complete definitions for NSW, and the hard part done already for other states] I isolation this makes sense, when included with other features such as roads etc it makes more sense that if a suburb boundary runs down a road that road is some how flagged as part of the boundary. Stand alone areas make extra work correlating that kind of data. Also, consider the case of a user downloading a rectangular section from OSM (since I'd imagine most of us do that, rather than deal with enormous planet or country files), where a suburb boundary intersects the boundary of the rectangle downloaded: If we use the single way method, the OSM API will give the user the entire suburb boundary, even the bits that are outside the rectangle - so every suburb that has any part of itself within the rectangle will have its boundary fully defined within the user's osm file. If we use the relation method, only those segments of the boundary which have nodes within the rectangle will be supplied - leaving some suburbs with incomplete boundaries in the user's osm file. If the user doing the download is not prepared to handle the relation issue with respect to boundaries they will probably encounter far greater problems that just suburb boundaries. Multi-polygon relations for example will suffer from exactly the same problem. The issue is that the down-loader needs to be aware of the data structure and not make the data structure adjust to handle his in-competencies. For example in JOSM it's a matter of a 3 clicks to request all the ways of boundary. There are already issues of ways with too many nodes causing downloading problems for the OSM servers, a single area for a whole rural suburb (or one of the bigger boundaries like a council) is easily going to exceed reasonable limits of way length, and unlike a way where you have to download the entire way every time it's viewed, with relations you can choose to download only the relevant parts, and the whole lot if you need it. Should you happen to not have your download's bounding box cross any of the suburb boundaries with either method you may just end up with no suburb data at all anyway. Assuming you can rely on suburb data from a small are download is a little naive. The only situation I can think of where a relation would be necessary for a suburb boundary would be when one suburb exists wholly within the boundaries of another suburb - but we already have the multipolygon relation for that (and I can't think of a single Aussie example of this off the top of my head - in fact, the only one I can think of globally is Vatican City being wholly within Rome - although we do have a similar situation for state borders with NSW/ACT). It's also able to be handled by the boundary relation with enclaves and exclaves which are designed for exactly this reason. ACT/NSW being a prime example of exactly that. Interestingly there is now support in multi-polygon relations for outer and inner ways to be broken into multiple ways (mapnik and josm already handle them properly) rather than being single areas, further indicating that stacked ways is not considered the ideal solution to these problems. This can be done either way - since with the one closed way per suburb method, the nodes along shared portions of boundaries should be common anyway: a mapper fixing an incorrect boundary would still only
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
Franc Carter franc.car...@... writes: While putting together an email for this I came across an issue. Currently OSM is Creative Commons licensed which looks pretty compatible with their license (ignoring the practicalities of attribution). However the license is being discussed at the moment and may well soon change and/or split. Should I wait until the license issue gets 'sorted' ? I don't see a problem - the CC license the data is under only requires attribution, it doesn't restrict what the license of the derivative work is. And as OSM is looking for a license that (and I quote) needs to give our database the same three basic licensing elements (freely copiable; share-alike; attribution required) as it has at present there's little worry of OSM becoming incompatible. At least, the matter shouldn't delay inquiries :) - James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
While putting together an email for this I came across an issue. Currently OSM is Creative Commons licensed which looks pretty compatible with their license (ignoring the practicalities of attribution). However the license is being discussed at the moment and may well soon change and/or split. Should I wait until the license issue gets 'sorted' ? cheers On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.comwrote: I'm happy to follow this up with the ABS if no-one else has done so yet. cheers On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Luke Woolley lswool...@gmail.com wrote: Well, this is the copyright info displayed on the ABS website, which states that the data appears to be under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 Australia http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/au/ licence which means we can copy, distribute, transmit and/or remix the data as long as it is attributed. If the data is implemented into OSM and is unchanged from the original data, Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics must be mentioned. If the data is a derivative of the original data, Based on Australian Bureau of Statistics data must be mentioned. But because we want to look over everything we would like to use in OSM with the finest of fine tooth combs, somebody should shoot off an email to *intermediary.managem...@abs.gov.au*intermediary.managem...@abs.gov.au and see what they say. 2009/1/24 James Churchill pel...@gmail.com James Churchill pel...@... writes: Looks like it's CC licensed; here's a link: http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/70353d5dd53b0e2dca257522001e996c!OpenDocumenthttp://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/70353d5dd53b0e2dca257522001e996c%21OpenDocument - James Whoops, just noticed that link isn't explicit about what is CC licensed; here's another link: http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/Home/%C2%A9+Copyright?OpenDocument At the very least, it has contact details for the person to ask about the rights. - James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
I'm happy to follow this up with the ABS if no-one else has done so yet. cheers On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Luke Woolley lswool...@gmail.com wrote: Well, this is the copyright info displayed on the ABS website, which states that the data appears to be under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 Australia http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/au/ licence which means we can copy, distribute, transmit and/or remix the data as long as it is attributed. If the data is implemented into OSM and is unchanged from the original data, Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics must be mentioned. If the data is a derivative of the original data, Based on Australian Bureau of Statistics data must be mentioned. But because we want to look over everything we would like to use in OSM with the finest of fine tooth combs, somebody should shoot off an email to * intermediary.managem...@abs.gov.au* intermediary.managem...@abs.gov.au and see what they say. 2009/1/24 James Churchill pel...@gmail.com James Churchill pel...@... writes: Looks like it's CC licensed; here's a link: http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/70353d5dd53b0e2dca257522001e996c!OpenDocumenthttp://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/70353d5dd53b0e2dca257522001e996c%21OpenDocument - James Whoops, just noticed that link isn't explicit about what is CC licensed; here's another link: http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/Home/%C2%A9+Copyright?OpenDocument At the very least, it has contact details for the person to ask about the rights. - James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
Ben Kelley ben.kel...@... writes: Hi. No I haven't found a good source of boundaries. The cadastral layer for the NSW Lands Department geospatial portal probably has them, but I'm not sure of the licensing issues. - Ben. On 1/12/09, Franc Carter franc.car...@... wrote: Hi Ben, have you managed to find a good source of boundaries for NSW ? cheers *snip* -- Franc Hi, Have you looked at the data that the Australian Bureau of Statistics publishes? It's free to download (apparently all the ABS publications have been since '05), and includes a dataset of suburb boundaries. It's described as These boundaries have been based upon localities gazetted by the Geographic Place name authority current at the time of the Census. http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/a...@.nsf/Latestproducts/2923.0.30.001Main%20Features12006?opendocumenttabname=Summaryprodno=2923.0.30.001issue=2006num=view= - James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Sat, Jan 24, 2009 at 5:26 AM, James Churchill pel...@gmail.com wrote: Have you looked at the data that the Australian Bureau of Statistics publishes? It's free to download (apparently all the ABS publications have been since '05), and includes a dataset of suburb boundaries. It's described as These boundaries have been based upon localities gazetted by the Geographic Place name authority current at the time of the Census. http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/a...@.nsf/Latestproducts/2923.0.30.001Main%20Features12006?opendocumenttabname=Summaryprodno=2923.0.30.001issue=2006num=view= I can't find the copyright on this data, can someone supply a link? Pete ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
Peter Ross pe...@... writes: I can't find the copyright on this data, can someone supply a link? Pete Looks like it's CC licensed; here's a link: http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/70353d5dd53b0e2dca257522001e996c!OpenDocument - James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
Well, this is the copyright info displayed on the ABS website, which states that the data appears to be under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 Australia http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.5/au/ licence which means we can copy, distribute, transmit and/or remix the data as long as it is attributed. If the data is implemented into OSM and is unchanged from the original data, Source: Australian Bureau of Statistics must be mentioned. If the data is a derivative of the original data, Based on Australian Bureau of Statistics data must be mentioned. But because we want to look over everything we would like to use in OSM with the finest of fine tooth combs, somebody should shoot off an email to * intermediary.managem...@abs.gov.au* intermediary.managem...@abs.gov.au and see what they say. 2009/1/24 James Churchill pel...@gmail.com James Churchill pel...@... writes: Looks like it's CC licensed; here's a link: http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/4a256353001af3ed4b2562bb00121564/70353d5dd53b0e2dca257522001e996c!OpenDocument - James Whoops, just noticed that link isn't explicit about what is CC licensed; here's another link: http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/D3310114.nsf/Home/%C2%A9+Copyright?OpenDocument At the very least, it has contact details for the person to ask about the rights. - James ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
[talk-au] Suburb boundaries
Hi. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to mark suburb boundaries (in areas that have them)? The closest thing I can find is boundary=administrative at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:boundary but I haven't seen this used anywhere. London uses this to mark boroughs (equivalent to council areas) with left:district=name and right:district=name to indicate the names on either side of the way. The above page seems to indicate that admin_level=10 shows a suburb border in Australia. Has anyone used this tag? How do you show the suburb names? Are there any examples of how this renders? - Ben Kelley. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
Hi Ben, have you managed to find a good source of boundaries for NSW ? cheers On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to mark suburb boundaries (in areas that have them)? The closest thing I can find is boundary=administrative at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:boundary but I haven't seen this used anywhere. London uses this to mark boroughs (equivalent to council areas) with left:district=name and right:district=name to indicate the names on either side of the way. The above page seems to indicate that admin_level=10 shows a suburb border in Australia. Has anyone used this tag? How do you show the suburb names? Are there any examples of how this renders? - Ben Kelley. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
That's a shame. A couple of years ago I had an email conversation with someone from the Lands Department and got permission to 'Derive Suburb Boundaries' - however when I thought about the conversation more deeply I came to the conclusion that it probably wasn't ok as he had probably got a bogus understanding of the OSM license (as I did not understand it that well at the time). Unfortunately, when I went back to contact him he seems to have disappeared. cheers On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. No I haven't found a good source of boundaries. The cadastral layer for the NSW Lands Department geospatial portal probably has them, but I'm not sure of the licensing issues. - Ben. On 1/12/09, Franc Carter franc.car...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ben, have you managed to find a good source of boundaries for NSW ? cheers On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 9:03 AM, Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com wrote: Hi. Does anyone have any thoughts on how to mark suburb boundaries (in areas that have them)? The closest thing I can find is boundary=administrative at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:boundary but I haven't seen this used anywhere. London uses this to mark boroughs (equivalent to council areas) with left:district=name and right:district=name to indicate the names on either side of the way. The above page seems to indicate that admin_level=10 shows a suburb border in Australia. Has anyone used this tag? How do you show the suburb names? Are there any examples of how this renders? - Ben Kelley. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au -- Franc -- Ben Kelley ben.kel...@gmail.com http://www.users.on.net/~bhkelley/ http://www.users.on.net/%7Ebhkelley/ -- Franc ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
Re: [talk-au] Suburb boundaries
On Mon, 2009-01-12 at 17:06 +1030, Darrin Smith wrote: [On the single area option] Personally I think that is still the best approach (the only downside I can see with it would be if a suburb was not defined by a closed area - although I'd imagine that would be quite rare). However, you'll find plenty of others that prefer one of the other two approaches. Yeah I'd have to say I actively dislike this approach because it encourages more and more cases of stacked ways. There's places in northern Adelaide where 1 road would end up with 6 additional ways stacked on top of it to represent this setup :/ ... But when the boundaries (or more often, parts of them) are just imaginary lines, creating multiple ways just for a boundary, then grouping them together as a relation seems like an awful lot of double handling (both for the mapper putting them in the map and for any automated process trying to reassemble them for any useful purpose). For the mapper I'd say this approach is much easier than trying to untangle up to 6 areas stacked on top of each other on a common boundary, 8 along a state boundary! In JOSM, it's fairly simple to see all stacked ways (using the middle mouse button, with control to hold/select) - then (as long as the ways have been tagged) it's very easy to pick the one you want to work with. Not sure whether it's that straightforward in the other editors or not. Also straightforward when working with raw OSM data (again, particularly if the ways have been tagged). With the single area approach, you only ever have to worry about one way per suburb, but you often have to deal with a few stacked ways. Conversely, with the other two approaches, you only have one way in any given place on the map, but you often have a whole swag of boundary ways per suburb. So I guess it's really a case of 6 of one, half a dozen of the other... And 0.6 api relations are ordered, post-processing of them is about to become remarkably easier once clients start putting in the members in order. That sounds more promising. Darrin's mapped most of Adelaide's nothern suburbs using this method, and that's probably the best Australian example of using relations for suburb boundaries (as well as postcode local government boundaries). And haven't I been banging my head against a wall trying to find useful data to do it, council signs only go so far... But surveying those imaginary line parts of boundaries, particularly in areas where there are no houses or businesses close enough to the estimated boundary to be authoritative is a bit more problematic - I haven't come up with a good method yet; perhaps someone else on the list can suggest one? (the Government - including Aussie Post - published data all appears to be encumbered). Yeah, this has caused me the greatest trouble in northern Adelaide as some areas really are vague. I've opted in the end to use a best guess estimate of where they lie, following on from someones comment a month ago when talking about adding roads, that a straight line linking 2 points where a road run was still accurate at some level. My thinking goes - If I know at this point these 2 places are either side of the boundary and over there those 2 places are then it's reasonable as a first cut to just link the two points and hope someone gets some better data later to follow the exact lines. Sounds resonable enough (presumably tagged with source=extrapolation or similar). At least that way, suburb boundaries can be completed. Cheers, Jack. ___ Talk-au mailing list Talk-au@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-au
