Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
On Sun, Dec 07, 2014 at 07:08:20PM +0100, Marc Gemis wrote: On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: @Ben : The legal definition (see website url) of 'Jaagpad' starts with: Het jaagpad is een private dienstweg of exploitatieweg . That means it's not a public highway. This is the reason that I would use access=private. According to the wiki page on access this means Only with permission of the owner on an individual basis. Which is IMHO exactly the same as permit. access=private foot=yes bicycle=yes moped_a=yes horse=??? is simple and does IMHO what it should do: navigations software for cars will not route you along the path. Everybody that really needs to be there will have to ignore the car navigation to get at their destination. I think that are some jaagpaden where the access=destination (or even yes). Every few months I find that someone changes is back to cycleway, but it's always someone else as far as I know. I've been fixing this for years. It's really annoying. Those roads are private property, where they give permissions to use them. So I think access=private makes the most sense. access=designated does not apply to any that I saw, but those would be with one of the blue signs. So I think this makes perfect sense: access=private foot=yes bicycle=yes There somethings are also parts to be able to reach a house, and you might need to change it to access=destination. As far as I know they typically use one side as service road and that side is ussually paved. Around here it's ussually with asphalt. So it makes most sense to me to use highway=service for that side. You can actually argue that both sides are service roads, so that would work for me too. But so would things like unclassified and track and maybe path depending on surface and width. Kurt ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
On Monday 08 December 2014 10:58:58 Kurt Roeckx wrote: access=private foot=yes bicycle=yes If we go this way, I'd prefer to stay closer to the signs and have it vehicle=private + bicycle=yes For the paved roads I guess it would then become highway=service, should we add a service=towpath tag as well? Unpaved towpaths would then become highway=track, and in some cases there would be a highway=path. That said, not even sure if I want to see it as highway=service. Paths in a park are often also wide enough for vehicles, and with a permit you can also drive there, yet that would just be a path/footway/cycleway? Ben ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
Kurt Roeckx schreef op 8/12/2014 om 10:58: Every few months I find that someone changes is back to cycleway, but it's always someone else as far as I know. I've been fixing this for years. It's really annoying. I was looking for the write answers Missing of correct info and interpretation and consencius lack Perhaps a wiki table with complete tag example for this topic jaagpaden Belgium law - no building at all special -with houses or factory's access or This could be usefull. Reading the talk I still do not know :) Jakka ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
I would suggest this tagging scheme because access = private is wrong : access:conditional=yes @ permit_holder bicycle=yes description=Jaagpad highway=track mofa=yes source=survey surface=unpaved tracktype=grade2 traffic_sign=BE:C3,BE:Type-IV vehicle=no website=http://www.wenz.be/nl/burger/Jaagpaden/ This probably covers it all, It has indeed passed this same list a few times. It is important not to name it as they have no official name. This is from : https://plus.google.com/photos/101291905535513785025/albums/6019150774027442577?banner=pwa Glenn On 07-12-14 08:19, Marc Gemis wrote: This topic pops up from time to time, see e.g. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/2013-July/004376.html . Don't remember the outcome, besides that they are not cycleways and do not have names in general. If I would start completely afresh I would propose: highway=service service=towpath access=private bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
highway=service service=towpath access=private jaagpaden tekst vermeld met nadruk met vergunning acces= permissive nederlandse item keuze Algemene toegang=met vergunning of zou deze service=towpath te niet doen? bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 Marc Gemis schreef op 7/12/2014 om 8:19: This topic pops up from time to time, see e.g. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/2013-July/004376.html . Don't remember the outcome, besides that they are not cycleways and do not have names in general. If I would start completely afresh I would propose: highway=service service=towpath access=private bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 In some cases the access might be more open, such as destination or even yes. m On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Jakka vdmfrank...@gmail.com mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, jachtpaden near the Leie Schelde Albert Kanaalenz... are tagged as cycleway but in serveye there is no sign http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/__wiki/NL:Cycleway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Cycleway http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/__Fietspad http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fietspad And the owner of those ways says: http://www.descheepvaart.be/__Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.__aspx http://www.descheepvaart.be/Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.aspx What would be the correct tag? Jakka ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
No, Met vergunning, than the best choice is what I suggested and it's legit OSM tagging: access:conditional=yes @ permit_holder It covers it all. Simple, elegant and readable. Permissive doesn't cover it. I haven't seen service=towpath being used on a jaagpad yet, but that kind of makes sense as in the whole of OSM, this combination has been used 0 times. Better not invent new tagging' schemes I believe. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/service#values Glenn On 07-12-14 11:01, Jakka wrote: highway=service service=towpath access=private jaagpaden tekst vermeld met nadruk met vergunning acces= permissive nederlandse item keuze Algemene toegang=met vergunning of zou deze service=towpath te niet doen? bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 Marc Gemis schreef op 7/12/2014 om 8:19: This topic pops up from time to time, see e.g. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/2013-July/004376.html . Don't remember the outcome, besides that they are not cycleways and do not have names in general. If I would start completely afresh I would propose: highway=service service=towpath access=private bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 In some cases the access might be more open, such as destination or even yes. m On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Jakka vdmfrank...@gmail.com mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, jachtpaden near the Leie Schelde Albert Kanaalenz... are tagged as cycleway but in serveye there is no sign http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/__wiki/NL:Cycleway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Cycleway http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/__Fietspad http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fietspad And the owner of those ways says: http://www.descheepvaart.be/__Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.__aspx http://www.descheepvaart.be/Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.aspx What would be the correct tag? Jakka ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be -- Everything is going to be 200 OK. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
But vehicle= is more specific than access=. This holds even for tags extended with conditionals (else the bicycles would need a permit). So, since a car is a vehicle, it would have not access at all. 2014-12-07 11:12 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be: No, Met vergunning, than the best choice is what I suggested and it's legit OSM tagging: access:conditional=yes @ permit_holder It covers it all. Simple, elegant and readable. Permissive doesn't cover it. I haven't seen service=towpath being used on a jaagpad yet, but that kind of makes sense as in the whole of OSM, this combination has been used 0 times. Better not invent new tagging' schemes I believe. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/service#values Glenn On 07-12-14 11:01, Jakka wrote: highway=service service=towpath access=private jaagpaden tekst vermeld met nadruk met vergunning acces= permissive nederlandse item keuze Algemene toegang=met vergunning of zou deze service=towpath te niet doen? bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 Marc Gemis schreef op 7/12/2014 om 8:19: This topic pops up from time to time, see e.g. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/2013-July/004376.html . Don't remember the outcome, besides that they are not cycleways and do not have names in general. If I would start completely afresh I would propose: highway=service service=towpath access=private bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 In some cases the access might be more open, such as destination or even yes. m On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Jakka vdmfrank...@gmail.com mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, jachtpaden near the Leie Schelde Albert Kanaalenz... are tagged as cycleway but in serveye there is no sign http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/__wiki/NL:Cycleway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Cycleway http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/__Fietspad http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fietspad And the owner of those ways says: http://www.descheepvaart.be/__Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.__aspx http://www.descheepvaart.be/Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.aspx What would be the correct tag? Jakka ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be -- Everything is going to be 200 OK. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
Well, that was covered as well in my full copy/paste access:conditional=yes @ permit_holder bicycle=yes description=Jaagpad highway=track mofa=yes source=survey surface=unpaved tracktype=grade2 traffic_sign=BE:C3,BE:Type-IV vehicle=no website=http://www.wenz.be/nl/burger/Jaagpaden/ It's a one on one with what I see on that location: https://plus.google.com/photos/101291905535513785025/albums/6019150774027442577?banner=pwa It concerns the 'left' side looking at the Zenne. Still doubts? Let me know, I've thought about this one a lot and we had a discussion about this before and this is what I came up with after taking in consideration all the input I got back then on this list. Glenn On 07-12-14 11:44, Sander Deryckere wrote: But vehicle= is more specific than access=. This holds even for tags extended with conditionals (else the bicycles would need a permit). So, since a car is a vehicle, it would have not access at all. 2014-12-07 11:12 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be mailto:gl...@byte-consult.be: No, Met vergunning, than the best choice is what I suggested and it's legit OSM tagging: access:conditional=yes @ permit_holder It covers it all. Simple, elegant and readable. Permissive doesn't cover it. I haven't seen service=towpath being used on a jaagpad yet, but that kind of makes sense as in the whole of OSM, this combination has been used 0 times. Better not invent new tagging' schemes I believe. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/service#values Glenn On 07-12-14 11:01, Jakka wrote: highway=service service=towpath access=private jaagpaden tekst vermeld met nadruk met vergunning acces= permissive nederlandse item keuze Algemene toegang=met vergunning of zou deze service=towpath te niet doen? bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 Marc Gemis schreef op 7/12/2014 om 8:19: This topic pops up from time to time, see e.g. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/2013-July/004376.html . Don't remember the outcome, besides that they are not cycleways and do not have names in general. If I would start completely afresh I would propose: highway=service service=towpath access=private bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 In some cases the access might be more open, such as destination or even yes. m On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Jakka vdmfrank...@gmail.com mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, jachtpaden near the Leie Schelde Albert Kanaalenz... are tagged as cycleway but in serveye there is no sign http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/__wiki/NL:Cycleway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Cycleway http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/__Fietspad http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fietspad And the owner of those ways says: http://www.descheepvaart.be/__Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.__aspx http://www.descheepvaart.be/Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.aspx What would be the correct tag? Jakka ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be -- Everything is going to be 200 OK. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be -- Everything is going to be 200 OK. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
What about horses ? I know several places where they come on the Jaagpad, especially where there is no asphalt. I don't know whether they are legally allowed to do so. m On Sun, Dec 7, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be wrote: Well, that was covered as well in my full copy/paste access:conditional=yes @ permit_holder bicycle=yes description=Jaagpad highway=track mofa=yes source=survey surface=unpaved tracktype=grade2 traffic_sign=BE:C3,BE:Type-IV vehicle=no website=http://www.wenz.be/nl/burger/Jaagpaden/ It's a one on one with what I see on that location: https://plus.google.com/photos/101291905535513785025/albums/6019150774027442577?banner=pwa It concerns the 'left' side looking at the Zenne. Still doubts? Let me know, I've thought about this one a lot and we had a discussion about this before and this is what I came up with after taking in consideration all the input I got back then on this list. Glenn On 07-12-14 11:44, Sander Deryckere wrote: But vehicle= is more specific than access=. This holds even for tags extended with conditionals (else the bicycles would need a permit). So, since a car is a vehicle, it would have not access at all. 2014-12-07 11:12 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be mailto:gl...@byte-consult.be: No, Met vergunning, than the best choice is what I suggested and it's legit OSM tagging: access:conditional=yes @ permit_holder It covers it all. Simple, elegant and readable. Permissive doesn't cover it. I haven't seen service=towpath being used on a jaagpad yet, but that kind of makes sense as in the whole of OSM, this combination has been used 0 times. Better not invent new tagging' schemes I believe. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/service#values Glenn On 07-12-14 11:01, Jakka wrote: highway=service service=towpath access=private jaagpaden tekst vermeld met nadruk met vergunning acces= permissive nederlandse item keuze Algemene toegang=met vergunning of zou deze service=towpath te niet doen? bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 Marc Gemis schreef op 7/12/2014 om 8:19: This topic pops up from time to time, see e.g. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/2013-July/004376.html . Don't remember the outcome, besides that they are not cycleways and do not have names in general. If I would start completely afresh I would propose: highway=service service=towpath access=private bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 In some cases the access might be more open, such as destination or even yes. m On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Jakka vdmfrank...@gmail.com mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com mailto:vdmfrank...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, jachtpaden near the Leie Schelde Albert Kanaalenz... are tagged as cycleway but in serveye there is no sign http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/__wiki/NL:Cycleway http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Cycleway http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/__Fietspad http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fietspad And the owner of those ways says: http://www.descheepvaart.be/__Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.__aspx http://www.descheepvaart.be/Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.aspx What would be the correct tag? Jakka ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be -- Everything is going to be 200 OK. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be -- Everything is going to be 200 OK. ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
Ok, thanks. Some valid points. But highway=track tag does allow implicit access I figured. I can't seem to find it in the wiki what is allowed for track. I do read for highway=track what 'can' : Roads for agricultural or forestry uses etc, often rough with unpaved/unsealed surfaces, that can be used only by off-road vehicles (4WD, tractors, ATVs , …) * But that is not way is allowed imho. Right now, vehicle is coverded though: access:conditional=yes @ permit_holder bicycle=yes highway=track mofa=yes vehicle=no traffic_sign=BE:C3,BE:Type-IV I would believe that the conditional rule would override any 'vehicle' class specific one in this case. But, Re-re-re-reading that overrule strategy it might be correct in some cases what you state. Elsewhere on that page I also read: Restriction-value This is the actual value of the restriction, e.g. yes, private, 80, 55 mph. The restriction can be absolute (yes, no, permissive and other values that apply to everybody), according to the purpose of the highway use (destination, delivery, customer, forestry, agricultural etc) or according to an explicit permission (private, permit_holder). ** I took that into account, since they talk about OR there. What we want is : everyone with a permit can access, bicycles, pedestrian are allowed, vehicles are not due to the C3 sign. not sure about horses I would love to get closure on this. What do you propose, taking the permit_holder into account. @Ben : The legal definition (see website url) of 'Jaagpad' starts with: Het jaagpad is een private dienstweg of exploitatieweg . That means it's not a public highway. Glenn * http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway ** https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions#Evaluation_of_conflicting_restrictions On 07-12-14 12:20, Sander Deryckere wrote: You tags access tags say * access:conditional = yes @ permit_holder * mofa=yes * bicycle = yes * vehicle = no Since a conditional restriction overrules only a non-conditional restriction of the same vehicle class and direction (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Conditional_restrictions#Evaluation_of_conflicting_restrictions), and since your tags don't contain any other info that talks about cars or tractors, this means that cars or tractors are never allowed. Even not when they have a permit. Your tags will be read as following: * Pedestrians: no specific tag, so the conditional access tag counts: they need a permit * Bicycles: a specific tag, saying yes, so they are allowed * Cars: a specific tag (vehicle), saying no, so they are never allowed I don't think this is quite correct. 2014-12-07 11:56 GMT+01:00 Glenn Plas gl...@byte-consult.be mailto:gl...@byte-consult.be: Well, that was covered as well in my full copy/paste access:conditional=yes @ permit_holder bicycle=yes description=Jaagpad highway=track mofa=yes source=survey surface=unpaved tracktype=grade2 traffic_sign=BE:C3,BE:Type-IV vehicle=no website=http://www.wenz.be/nl/burger/Jaagpaden/ It's a one on one with what I see on that location: ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
[OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
Hi, jachtpaden near the Leie Schelde Albert Kanaalenz... are tagged as cycleway but in serveye there is no sign http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Cycleway http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fietspad And the owner of those ways says: http://www.descheepvaart.be/Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.aspx What would be the correct tag? Jakka ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
Re: [OSM-talk-be] Jachtpaden are not cycleway Highway (path along the rivers)
This topic pops up from time to time, see e.g. https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-be/2013-July/004376.html . Don't remember the outcome, besides that they are not cycleways and do not have names in general. If I would start completely afresh I would propose: highway=service service=towpath access=private bicycle=yes foot=yes surface=asphatl/earth/ maxspeed=30 In some cases the access might be more open, such as destination or even yes. m On Sat, Dec 6, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Jakka vdmfrank...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, jachtpaden near the Leie Schelde Albert Kanaalenz... are tagged as cycleway but in serveye there is no sign http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NL:Cycleway http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fietspad And the owner of those ways says: http://www.descheepvaart.be/Rubriek/Recreatie/Jaagpaden.aspx What would be the correct tag? Jakka ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be ___ Talk-be mailing list Talk-be@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-be
