[Talk-gb-westmidlands] Hockley Flyover art
I used to drive under and over Hockley Flyover daily, but I never knew about the artwork(s) there, by William Mitchell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mitchell_(sculptor) until today. See: https://www.flickr.com/photos/seva_nmb/7865992708/in/pool-1910185@N24/ and other pics there. I've added a node to the map: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3151337391 but a survey is needed. I'll do that when I can, but one of you might be close by... -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Hockley Flyover art
I recognise that artist's work! He has a piece in Coventry too. I was pretty sure I'd mapped it and could just add the wikidata tags but turns out I was wrong. Anyway it's now mapped and includes wikidata tags and the English Heritage listed status tags: http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3151797275 See here if you're interested in what it looks like: http://wharferj.wordpress.com/2012/02/13/three-murals-bill-mitchell-gordon-cullen-dorothy-annan/ Thanks Andy :-) On 26 October 2014 18:44, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: I used to drive under and over Hockley Flyover daily, but I never knew about the artwork(s) there, by William Mitchell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Mitchell_(sculptor) until today. See: https://www.flickr.com/photos/seva_nmb/7865992708/in/pool-1910185@N24/ and other pics there. I've added a node to the map: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3151337391 but a survey is needed. I'll do that when I can, but one of you might be close by... -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands ___ Talk-gb-westmidlands mailing list Talk-gb-westmidlands@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb-westmidlands
Re: [Talk-GB] UK Retail chains
The tag addr:place has been used to locate one element inside another addressed element. See this example for shops within a Tesco Extra store http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/5CN. This usage is useful but probably a little difficult to consume, particularly as there seem to be rather more usages of addr:place as a synonym of addr:city. The idea is that one looks for the thing named in addr:place within the immediate locality (I presume this should be mapped as an area and the node or way with the addr:place tag should sit within that area). Examples of usage include: post offices in shops, shops in hypermarkets, hospitals, restaurants bars in hotels, some retail business parks where the address is solely for the area not the street, possibly shopping centres etc.), university campus buildings, etc. This overpass query shows how this has been used in the Nottingham area: http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/5CO, largely by Will. The benefit of using a tag like addr:place is that address information does not get duplicated confusingly (e.g., on a bar, 2 restaurants and a hairdresser all inside a hotel). There are at least 2 post offices in other shops in Nottingham which I mapped. at Wilkinson http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/386846669#map=19/53.00082/-1.19583(possibly now Wilko !) in Bulwell I never checked inside the store so rather lazily I just tacked on the amenity tag; at The Co-operative http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/4440508#map=19/52.95587/-1.22930 supermarket (need to check how this is branded these days too) I did survey inside and added the post office associated post box reasonably accurately. The distinct disadvantage of putting the shop and amenity tags on the same node is that only one gets rendered. (Incidentally, this applies to many smaller sub postoffices, they are actually located within a convenience store or similar, but we rarely try and separate the locations) Jerry On 25 October 2014 22:29, ael law_ence@ntlworld.com wrote: On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 08:19:25PM +0100, Dan S wrote: However two nodes with standard tags don't distinguish W H Smiths inside Post office from the inverse. That seems a useful distinction. sub_shop=yes is ugly, but perhaps something along these lines already exists or is needed? This may have been discussed heavily elsewhere, I don't know. My own opinion is that if you need something to be _inside_ something else, there's no point trying to do that just with nodes, since areas are perfect for the job! Agreed, but it breaks the symmetry and requires more careful survey. In my case, gps is a bit poor among tall buildings, and the shops are all in one big building. I can get a rough outline from Bing, but the inner walls would be guesswork. I don't want to introduce spurious accuracy into the database, so nodes seem appropriate here. I suppose a relation might capture the semantics, but I don't think that would be very obvious to the average user, who may not be a mapper at all. He/she needs to know he has to go inside WHS to find the Post Office. I suppose the obvious rendering would be as you suggest: WHS as an area containing the PO. Ho hum... ael ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names
Hi all, Coincidentally, I noticed this online project to maintain a list of canonical names. It's used for auto-suggest in iD, not for mechanical-edit: https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index I've checked the list against Matthijs' proposal, and I've proposed a few of his suggestions to go on their list too: https://github.com/osmlab/name-suggestion-index/pull/12/files Best Dan 2014-10-24 14:44 GMT+01:00 Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl: Dear all, I am proposing to unify the names of chain shops within the UK. For details, please see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Math1985/UK_Shop_Names. Please let me know if you have any comments. If there are no further comments, I will invite list members to vote on this automatic edit. I will not proceed without at least 8 votes with 2/3 approval. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addr:place (was: UK Retail chains)
On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 07:28:42 + SK53 sk53@gmail.com wrote: The tag addr:place has been used to locate one element inside another addressed element. See this example for shops within a Tesco Extra store http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/5CN. Surely that could be inferred from the fact that the object is spatially within the parent? This usage is useful but probably a little difficult to consume, particularly as there seem to be rather more usages of addr:place as a synonym of addr:city. The way I've always undersood addr:place was not as a synonym for addr:city but rather to specify the bit of the address between the road (addr:street) and the post town (addr:city). -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addr:place
On 26/10/2014 10:36, Andy Street wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 07:28:42 + SK53 sk53@gmail.com wrote: The tag addr:place has been used to locate one element inside another addressed element. See this example for shops within a Tesco Extra store http://overpass-turbo.eu/s/5CN. Surely that could be inferred from the fact that the object is spatially within the parent? Sure it can, but I think there is something to be said for tagging things explicitly. I would only tag it in this way when it is part of the official address. This usage is useful but probably a little difficult to consume, particularly as there seem to be rather more usages of addr:place as a synonym of addr:city. The way I've always undersood addr:place was not as a synonym for addr:city but rather to specify the bit of the address between the road (addr:street) and the post town (addr:city). My understanding has always been that addr:place is similar to addr:street, except when the unit in question isn't a street but some other grouping of addresses such as a business park, retail park or shopping centre, which serves a similar function to a street in the address. For example: Unit 5 XYZ Retail Park Suburb City As far as I'm aware this has been what the wiki has said since the tag was first proposed and I remember mailing list discussions broadly agreeing. The wiki page - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:place - does explicitly state it shouldn't be used instead of addr:suburb. It's unfortunate when a tag is used by different people to mean substantially different things, because it makes the data less useful. I think there should be a wiki page dedicated to UK addresses, which would suggest best practices for tagging more complicated addresses. The only reason I haven't already created one is the lack of discussion and consensus over issues like parent/subsidiary streets, usage of addr:interpolation on buildings, and so on. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addr:place
On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 13:11:39 + Will Phillips wp4...@gmail.com wrote: My understanding has always been that addr:place is similar to addr:street, except when the unit in question isn't a street but some other grouping of addresses such as a business park, retail park or shopping centre, which serves a similar function to a street in the address. So far I've been tagging addresses like this: addr:housename = Enterprise House addr:site = The Business Park addr:street= High Street addr:place = Locality addr:city = Posttown addr:postcode = AB12 3CD addr:country = GB As far as I'm aware this has been what the wiki has said since the tag was first proposed and I remember mailing list discussions broadly agreeing. The wiki page - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:addr:place - does explicitly state it shouldn't be used instead of addr:suburb. It certainly appears that I have been tagging wrongly given the wiki page you cite. Frankly I find the whole address tagging schema rather confusing as many of the tags are either too specific (housenumber needn't be a house nor city a city) or too vague (place). There is also an issue when reading the data of which way to order the various tags, especially when people mix in district, province, state, etc. It's unfortunate when a tag is used by different people to mean substantially different things, because it makes the data less useful. I think there should be a wiki page dedicated to UK addresses, which would suggest best practices for tagging more complicated addresses. The only reason I haven't already created one is the lack of discussion and consensus over issues like parent/subsidiary streets, usage of addr:interpolation on buildings, and so on. I've largely given up on adding addresses in OSM but if I were to resume then I'd certainly find it helpful if we had a wiki page with clear and concise examples of how to map GB addresses. -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addr:place
On 26/10/14 19:02, Andy Street wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 13:11:39 + Will Phillips wp4...@gmail.com wrote: My understanding has always been that addr:place is similar to addr:street, except when the unit in question isn't a street but some other grouping of addresses such as a business park, retail park or shopping centre, which serves a similar function to a street in the address. So far I've been tagging addresses like this: addr:housename = Enterprise House addr:site = The Business Park addr:street= High Street addr:place = Locality addr:city = Posttown addr:postcode = AB12 3CD addr:country = GB The last thing I would include in OSM addressing is the confusing and wholly unjustifiable post town as defined by Royal Mail. I live in a village in its own civil parish and completely separate from a nearby village that Royal Fail insist is my postal town. This postal town is a village; it has nothing at all to do with my village except that my post is delivered from a small office there. When I quote my postcode, companies who use Royal Fail's PAF conclude that I live in the next door village rather than the one I actually live in. When a delivery is sent here, the CARP or sat-nav -generated route sends the driver to my door in a village that is not always on the delivery note (because that wrongly has the postal town on it), causing problems including abandoned deliveries. We in OSM can do SO much better and we must not use the imaginary, spurious and wholly wrong concept of Royal Fail's postal town. Postal towns are not real and have no place in OSM. One good thing is that Royal Fail has finally removed Humberside from the PAF. In fact they had North South Humberside in the PAF when only Humberside ever existed. Humberside was abolished in 1996, so Royal Fail are really good at keeping up. We can do SO much better. -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addr:place
On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:27:11 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Hello Chris, Like you, I live in a different parish than the one RM route my post through. spurious and wholly wrong concept of Royal Fail's postal town. Postal I agree it's a shame that so many people attribute so much value to RM's postal address. After all it was, and remains, designed for *their* purposes only. That is, the purpose of routing mail deliveries. Nothing more. -- Regards _ / ) The blindingly obvious is / _)radnever immediately apparent I'll be the paint on the side if you'll be the tin Love Song - The Damned ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addr:place
On Sun Oct 26 2014 19:34:14 GMT+ (GMT), Brad Rogers wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:27:11 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Hello Chris, Like you, I live in a different parish than the one RM route my post through. spurious and wholly wrong concept of Royal Fail's postal town. Postal I agree it's a shame that so many people attribute so much value to RM's postal address. After all it was, and remains, designed for *their* purposes only. That is, the purpose of routing mail deliveries. Nothing more. Absolutely, would be so good to put the postcode genie back in the bottle. Postal addresses are the reason Donington Park is referred to as The Derbyshire Circuit by geographicakk ignorant motor racing commentators, its in Leicestershire. Ramblers are assigned to wrong county as a result of postcodes, it took some work to convince London office staff that that Castle Donnngton, Kegworth, Measham, Moira are in Leicestershire. Its a shame grid references are not taught in schools, they are as simple to use and remember. They give geographic meaning, I can see instantly that SK53 lives in an area 100km east and 10km north of me. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:27:11 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: We in OSM can do SO much better and we must not use the imaginary, spurious and wholly wrong concept of Royal Fail's postal town. Postal towns are not real and have no place in OSM. Okay, now I'm confused! I know what Royal Mail considers my address to be and that includes a post town. If post towns have no place in OSM then presumably we have either adopted another addressing standard or created our own. Can someone please point me in the direction of a document describing how addresses in OpenStreetMap are derived? -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 26/10/14 21:58, Andy Street wrote: On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 19:27:11 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: We in OSM can do SO much better and we must not use the imaginary, spurious and wholly wrong concept of Royal Fail's postal town. Postal towns are not real and have no place in OSM. Okay, now I'm confused! I know what Royal Mail considers my address to be and that includes a post town. If post towns have no place in OSM then presumably we have either adopted another addressing standard or created our own. Can someone please point me in the direction of a document describing how addresses in OpenStreetMap are derived? Addresses are allocated by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. I use the address the LA recognise, plus the postcode which, AFAIK, Royal Mail do issue. Is this contentious? How can you determine the postal town from a survey? -- Cheers, Chris user: chillly ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On 26/10/14 21:58, Andy Street wrote: We in OSM can do SO much better and we must not use the imaginary, spurious and wholly wrong concept of Royal Fail's postal town. Postal towns are not real and have no place in OSM. Okay, now I'm confused! I know what Royal Mail considers my address to be and that includes a post town. If post towns have no place in OSM then presumably we have either adopted another addressing standard or created our own. Can someone please point me in the direction of a document describing how addresses in OpenStreetMap are derived? The correct information is contained in a reference we are not allowed to use. The NLPG - National Land and Property Gazetteer. In that the correct places and town names are used for the cross link references in the National Street Gazetteer. Post Codes are cross referenced, but to not form a 'primary' key since there ARE deemed to be of secondary importance and may not be accurate. The LLPG files that I have private access to throw up some interesting problems when trying to create a post code table from them since the front line staff prefer to use that as a quick means of finding a persons address, so one has to cheat to get it to work in cases like those already highlighted. Camden and the like are places in London, but nowadays London tends to get classified as a 'county' and then the boroughs are 'towns' but neither models are particularly accurate? The metropolitan areas simply don't fit a 'place/town' model. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] Mechanical shop edits (Was: RFC Mechanical edit: UK Shop Names)
On 24 October 2014 19:07, Matthijs Melissen i...@matthijsmelissen.nl wrote: Could you indicate how these changes relate to the Nottingham tagging scheme? Were all old tags seen as correct by your scheme? SK53, you haven't responded yet to this question. I think it's important to join the discussion, especially after having asked for a revert. Of course, no problem to respond later if you're busy at the moment. I have reverted my edits of today and yesterday. I have now added Notes as a replacement for my (reverted) edits. I invite you to check your local area for new Notes, close them if you disagree with them, and fix them otherwise. Note that I checked for each object manually whether a change (in my opinion) would be useful, so automated QA tools wouldn't be able to generate such notes. I realize that it is easy to flood the note system and its users by adding too many notes, so I won't be adding any new large amount of Notes for the time being. As an aside, just a reminder that it is possible to generate an RSS feed of new Notes in any area you're interested in. See for example http://tyrasd.github.io/osm-qa-feeds/ for an easy to use interface. As always, hoping that this will have a positive effect on the quality on the map. Kind regards, Matthijs ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 22:41:56 + Chris Hill o...@raggedred.net wrote: Addresses are allocated by Local Authorities, not Royal Mail. I use the address the LA recognise, plus the postcode which, AFAIK, Royal Mail do issue. I was aware that LAs have a role in numbering and naming new streets but I was unaware that they assigned full addresses. Perhaps someone could take pity on this poor simpleton and explain how this works. I've grabbed my GPS, wandered down High Street and added a waymark outside number 10. When I get back home how do I go about converting this data into a full address that I can add to OSM? Is this contentious? No, just confusing! ;) How can you determine the postal town from a survey? In my local area all addresses within a postcode district share the same post town. -- Regards, Andy Street ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] addressing (was addr:place)
In my local area all addresses within a postcode district share the same post town. .. Which is the norm. Wikipedia says : In a minority of cases a single number can cover two post towns - for example, the WN8 district includes Wigan and Skelmersdale post towns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postcodes_in_the_United_Kingdom ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
