Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Mark Goodge]

On 26/09/2018 17:33, Philip Barnes wrote:

On Wed, 2018-09-26 at 17:18 +0100, Tony Shield wrote:


From the examples given it seems that passing the facing sign is 
the limiting event, the end of the restriction may be posted with a

grey end of restriction sign; surveying them could be a nightmare
if the road/way is tagged - the restriction can be several miles
and in one direction.


I have never known such a restriction to be only in one direction.


The way it's actually done, from a legal perspective, is to put a 
Traffic Restriction order (TRO) on a very short length of road, and then 
only put the signposts at one end of the stretch.


Using ascii art, it looks a bit like this:

-<==---

where - is unrestricted road, = is restricted road, and < is a sign 
facing in that direction (ie, left in this case).


Because a TRO needs signs to be enforceable, that effectively makes it a 
one-way restriction as only traffic approaching from the left sees the 
sign. It's a bit of a hack, but quite a common one.


That's as opposed to a fully restricted road, which would be TRO'd and 
signed like this:


---<>---

I hope that makes sense. It's a bit difficult to explain!

Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Philip Barnes]

On Wed, 2018-09-26 at 17:18 +0100, Tony Shield wrote:
> Hi
> 
> What are we going to tag? The length of road/way with the
> restriction 
> and which lanes, or the placement of the sign as a node and with
> some 
> directionality.
> 
>  From the examples given it seems that passing the facing sign is
> the 
> limiting event, the end of the restriction may be posted with a grey
> end 
> of restriction sign; surveying them could be a nightmare if the
> road/way 
> is tagged - the restriction can be several miles and in one
> direction.

I have never known such a restriction to be only in one direction. But
Jerry's suggestion to map the signs is good as we can then build up the
zones in the same way that we build speed limit zones.

Phil (trigpoint)

> 
> Regards
> 
> Tony
> 
> 
> On 26/09/2018 13:10, Mark Goodge wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On 26/09/2018 12:35, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> > > Hey there
> > > 
> > > I can't believe this didn't come up before - or maybe it did but
> > > was not
> > > documented in the wiki.
> > > 
> > > In United Kingdom, how do you tag roads signed with this sign?
> > > 
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_622.1A.svg
> > 
> > That's a good question. I've had a look, and none of them seem to
> > be 
> > tagged on the roads in my town.
> > 
> > Another issue is how we tag "gateway" weight restrictions. These
> > apply 
> > only to traffic in one direction, and not to an entire length of
> > road. 
> > They're typically used in towns and villages that have been by-
> > passed, 
> > to ensure that HGV through traffic has to use the by-pass, but,
> > having 
> > accessed the town via a legitimate route, can then leave it via 
> > whichever is most convenient. Here's an example of what I mean:
> > 
> > https://www.markgoodge.com/files/by-pass.png
> > 
> > The primary route (in green) which originally passed through the
> > town 
> > has been diverted to by-pass it on a new construction. Junctions A
> > and 
> > B will have weight restriction signs (as above) on the route into 
> > town, but junction C will not. So HGVs can enter the town via C,
> > but 
> > then leave via either A, B or C. The intention, of course, is to 
> > ensure that only trucks which need to enter the town do so, as it 
> > can't be used as a short-cut (eg, if the by-pass is congested),
> > but 
> > once in the town, there's no restriction on which parts of the
> > town 
> > the trucks can service.
> > 
> > I really don't know how we'd tag that, because it would be a tag
> > that 
> > only applies to one traffic direction of a way rather than the
> > entire 
> > way.
> > 
> > > Note that the GVM for which the sign applies is given explicitly
> > > on the
> > > sign, which is apparently always the case for any HGV-access-
> > > restriction
> > > sign in the UK.
> > 
> > That's not a major issue. Although the limit is always stated,
> > it's 
> > also almost always 7.5t, as that's the boundary between different 
> > categories of goods vehicle. With very few exceptions, it's just
> > the 
> > larger ones which are prohibited.
> > 
> > Mark
> > 
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> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Tony Shield]

Hi

What are we going to tag? The length of road/way with the restriction 
and which lanes, or the placement of the sign as a node and with some 
directionality.


From the examples given it seems that passing the facing sign is the 
limiting event, the end of the restriction may be posted with a grey end 
of restriction sign; surveying them could be a nightmare if the road/way 
is tagged - the restriction can be several miles and in one direction.


Regards

Tony


On 26/09/2018 13:10, Mark Goodge wrote:



On 26/09/2018 12:35, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Hey there

I can't believe this didn't come up before - or maybe it did but was not
documented in the wiki.

In United Kingdom, how do you tag roads signed with this sign?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_622.1A.svg


That's a good question. I've had a look, and none of them seem to be 
tagged on the roads in my town.


Another issue is how we tag "gateway" weight restrictions. These apply 
only to traffic in one direction, and not to an entire length of road. 
They're typically used in towns and villages that have been by-passed, 
to ensure that HGV through traffic has to use the by-pass, but, having 
accessed the town via a legitimate route, can then leave it via 
whichever is most convenient. Here's an example of what I mean:


https://www.markgoodge.com/files/by-pass.png

The primary route (in green) which originally passed through the town 
has been diverted to by-pass it on a new construction. Junctions A and 
B will have weight restriction signs (as above) on the route into 
town, but junction C will not. So HGVs can enter the town via C, but 
then leave via either A, B or C. The intention, of course, is to 
ensure that only trucks which need to enter the town do so, as it 
can't be used as a short-cut (eg, if the by-pass is congested), but 
once in the town, there's no restriction on which parts of the town 
the trucks can service.


I really don't know how we'd tag that, because it would be a tag that 
only applies to one traffic direction of a way rather than the entire 
way.



Note that the GVM for which the sign applies is given explicitly on the
sign, which is apparently always the case for any HGV-access-restriction
sign in the UK.


That's not a major issue. Although the limit is always stated, it's 
also almost always 7.5t, as that's the boundary between different 
categories of goods vehicle. With very few exceptions, it's just the 
larger ones which are prohibited.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Mark Goodge]

On 26/09/2018 14:21, Paul Berry wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 at 13:10, Mark Goodge > wrote:


Another issue is how we tag "gateway" weight restrictions. These apply
only to traffic in one direction, and not to an entire length of road.
They're typically used in towns and villages that have been by-passed,
to ensure that HGV through traffic has to use the by-pass, but, having
accessed the town via a legitimate route, can then leave it via
whichever is most convenient.


Surely by updating every highway's tags within the are demarcated by the 
gateways? The same as is done for speed limits, etc... (That's how I'd 
do it.)


But that isn't how it is. Inside the gateways, there are no 
restrictions. It's just that you can't get there through the gateways.


And then we have interesting situations like this where, if anything, 
two hgv=no gateways back onto each other: https://goo.gl/maps/dRLTKeEH1RD2


Yes, the effect there is to effectively cut the road in half as far as 
HGVs are concerned. They can enter the road from either end, and no part 
of the road has a restriction. But, whichever end they enter from, they 
have to return the same way and can't pass the gateway in the middle.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Philip Barnes]

On 26 September 2018 15:21:41 BST, David Woolley  
wrote:
 
>In practice you are not going to get an HGV restriction below 7.5T MAM 
>as that would rule out appliance delivery vehicles and house movers. 
That is why most are qualified with except for loading or except for access. 

I guess loading is better as access could be interpreted as calling at a shop 
to buy a yorkie. 

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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Colin Smale]

The term "HGV" is not actually legally defined in the UK. Goods vehicles
start from 3.5T MAM. There is a special driving licence group D1 which
allows you to drive up to 7.5T, but the difference is in the licence,
not the vehicle. 

The sign with an image of a lorry is used for a so-called "environmental
restriction", e.g. to keep trucks out of residential areas. 

The sign with just a weight like "5t" is normally a physical
restriction, due to a weak bridge for example, and therefore has to
apply to all vehicles. 

In order to distinguish between an environmental restriction and a
physical restriction, we have been using maxheight:physical=* and
maxwidth=* for the physical size limits. Maybe we can apply the same
pattern to maxweight? 

In the UK both types of weight limit refer to the MAM/MGW, not to the
current weight. I agree that the OSM wiki is ambiguous in this regard.___
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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[David Woolley]

On 26/09/18 14:49, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Thank you for the answers given. Perhaps there are some
misunderstandings, so I want to clarify two points:

1.
A HGV is defined as a vehicle with a max allowable mass of above 3.5t,
even in the UK. Tagging "hgv=no" when seeing this sign is plain
incorrect, except if we specifically redefine only for OSM what
constitutes a HGV contrary to what can be found in the actual
legislation. I don't think it is wise to do that.



In terms of licensing, up to 7.5T MAM (or up to 8.25T with trailer) can 
be driven by people with suitable classes on an ordinary driving 
licence.  Many older drivers already have these.  7.5T is where HGV 
licensing really bites.  Some sources use the term MGV (Medium Goods 
Vehicle for the 3.5T to 7.5T range, but it does seem to be the case that 
HGV is used in some places.


In practice you are not going to get an HGV restriction below 7.5T MAM 
as that would rule out appliance delivery vehicles and house movers. 
You might have a maxweight below that, because of weak structures.


Also technically, the limit is on mass, not weight.  It is not dependent 
on the barometer reading or whether the vehicle is at the poles or the 
equator.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Tobias Zwick]

Thank you for the answers given. Perhaps there are some
misunderstandings, so I want to clarify two points:

1.
A HGV is defined as a vehicle with a max allowable mass of above 3.5t,
even in the UK. Tagging "hgv=no" when seeing this sign is plain
incorrect, except if we specifically redefine only for OSM what
constitutes a HGV contrary to what can be found in the actual
legislation. I don't think it is wise to do that.

2.
How HGV are defined (>3.5t) and what can be seen on signs like these
(7.5t) is NOT THE WEIGHT but the maximum allowed weight. This is very
important.
The maximum allowed weight, also known as the gross vehicle mass or GVM
or GVWR is the maximum permitted weight of the vehicle at full load, as
specified by the manufacturer. (See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_vehicle_weight_rating)

Just to be clear, an example. Let's say there is a lorry with the
following properties on the road:
- Without any load it weighs 2 tons -> this is the unladen/empty weight
- It carries 4 tons of gravel -> this is the tara/load
- It currently weighs 6.5 tons
  -> this is the current/actual weight. Used for maxweight=*
- It could load up to 7 tons -> this is the maximum capacity
- It is permitted to weigh in total up to 9 tons
  -> this is the maximum permitted/allowed weight/mass, aka gross
 vehicle mass, aka GVM
- in other words, GVM = unladen weight + maximum capacity

Thus, using maxweight=7.5 is incorrect already because the maxweight tag
is about the maximum CURRENT weight. A HGV whose permitted maximum
weight is above 7.5 tons but which currently weighs below 7.5 tons is
not allowed on roads signed with the linked sign.

So, these are the points I wanted to clarify. Also, turns out that
someone else already noticed the exact problem and created a proposal
for this, which seems kind of abondoned, as usual:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/gross_weight

How can we get this proposal started again? Because, the only correct
way to tag the sign initially posted here would be with

maxweightrating:hgv=7.5

(if the proposal is unchanged)

Greetings
Tobias


On 26/09/2018 13:35, Tobias Zwick wrote:
> Hey there
> 
> I can't believe this didn't come up before - or maybe it did but was not
> documented in the wiki.
> 
> In United Kingdom, how do you tag roads signed with this sign?
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_622.1A.svg
> 
> Note that the GVM for which the sign applies is given explicitly on the
> sign, which is apparently always the case for any HGV-access-restriction
> sign in the UK.
> 
> In other words, you will never find a sign like this in the UK:
> 
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C7.svg
> 
> Greetings
> Tobias
> 
> P.S: GVM is gross vehicle mass
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_vehicle_weight_rating
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Paul Berry]

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 at 13:10, Mark Goodge  wrote:

> Another issue is how we tag "gateway" weight restrictions. These apply
> only to traffic in one direction, and not to an entire length of road.
> They're typically used in towns and villages that have been by-passed,
> to ensure that HGV through traffic has to use the by-pass, but, having
> accessed the town via a legitimate route, can then leave it via
> whichever is most convenient.


Surely by updating every highway's tags within the are demarcated by the
gateways? The same as is done for speed limits, etc... (That's how I'd do
it.)

And then we have interesting situations like this where, if anything, two
hgv=no gateways back onto each other: https://goo.gl/maps/dRLTKeEH1RD2

Regards,
*Paul*
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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Philip Barnes]

On 26 September 2018 13:13:51 BST, Mark Goodge  wrote:
>
>
>On 26/09/2018 13:00, Colin Smale wrote:
>> On 2018-09-26 13:48, David Woolley wrote:
>> 
>>> In that specific case (7.5T), which is the most common, it would be 
>>> hgv=no, as that is the defining maximum authorised mass for an HGV. 
>>>  I'd consider maxweight, for higher limits.
>>>
>> Is a bus/coach considered to be a goods vehicle for these purposes? 
>
>No, they're not. If there is a restriction on buses, it will be signed 
>separately. If it applies to all vehicles, irrespective of 
>classification, it will look like this one:
>
>https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4872708
>
>> They 
>> are usually heavier than 7.5t. In the case of hgv=no then they would 
>> still be allowed, but maxweight=18000 might erroneously imply a 
>> prohibition of other vehicles as well. Some larger coaches can far 
>> exceed 18 tons.
>hgv=no would be correct for the sign that Tobias linked to. You'd use 
>maxweight= for signs like the one in the Geograph photo, above.
>
It is unusual to see the no goods vehicles over 7.5 t without a plate 
underneath, most usually it will say 'except for loading' which we tag as 
hgv=destination. 

The primary reason for these restrictions is to prevent goods vehicles from 
using towns and villages as through routes and causing a nuisance to residents. 

Usage varies Leicestershire has been very good at these restrictions, 
Shropshire has a lot to learn. It needs to start by declassify most B roads. 

Phil (trigpoint) 

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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Tony Shield]

Hi Tobias

How is it done in Europe or The Netherlands - is it different to the 
answers given?


Tony

On 26/09/2018 12:35, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Hey there

I can't believe this didn't come up before - or maybe it did but was not
documented in the wiki.

In United Kingdom, how do you tag roads signed with this sign?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_622.1A.svg

Note that the GVM for which the sign applies is given explicitly on the
sign, which is apparently always the case for any HGV-access-restriction
sign in the UK.

In other words, you will never find a sign like this in the UK:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C7.svg

Greetings
Tobias

P.S: GVM is gross vehicle mass
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_vehicle_weight_rating

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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Mark Goodge]

On 26/09/2018 13:00, Colin Smale wrote:

On 2018-09-26 13:48, David Woolley wrote:

In that specific case (7.5T), which is the most common, it would be 
hgv=no, as that is the defining maximum authorised mass for an HGV. 
 I'd consider maxweight, for higher limits.


Is a bus/coach considered to be a goods vehicle for these purposes? 


No, they're not. If there is a restriction on buses, it will be signed 
separately. If it applies to all vehicles, irrespective of 
classification, it will look like this one:


https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/4872708

They 
are usually heavier than 7.5t. In the case of hgv=no then they would 
still be allowed, but maxweight=18000 might erroneously imply a 
prohibition of other vehicles as well. Some larger coaches can far 
exceed 18 tons.
hgv=no would be correct for the sign that Tobias linked to. You'd use 
maxweight= for signs like the one in the Geograph photo, above.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Mark Goodge]

On 26/09/2018 12:35, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Hey there

I can't believe this didn't come up before - or maybe it did but was not
documented in the wiki.

In United Kingdom, how do you tag roads signed with this sign?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_622.1A.svg


That's a good question. I've had a look, and none of them seem to be 
tagged on the roads in my town.


Another issue is how we tag "gateway" weight restrictions. These apply 
only to traffic in one direction, and not to an entire length of road. 
They're typically used in towns and villages that have been by-passed, 
to ensure that HGV through traffic has to use the by-pass, but, having 
accessed the town via a legitimate route, can then leave it via 
whichever is most convenient. Here's an example of what I mean:


https://www.markgoodge.com/files/by-pass.png

The primary route (in green) which originally passed through the town 
has been diverted to by-pass it on a new construction. Junctions A and B 
will have weight restriction signs (as above) on the route into town, 
but junction C will not. So HGVs can enter the town via C, but then 
leave via either A, B or C. The intention, of course, is to ensure that 
only trucks which need to enter the town do so, as it can't be used as a 
short-cut (eg, if the by-pass is congested), but once in the town, 
there's no restriction on which parts of the town the trucks can service.


I really don't know how we'd tag that, because it would be a tag that 
only applies to one traffic direction of a way rather than the entire way.



Note that the GVM for which the sign applies is given explicitly on the
sign, which is apparently always the case for any HGV-access-restriction
sign in the UK.


That's not a major issue. Although the limit is always stated, it's also 
almost always 7.5t, as that's the boundary between different categories 
of goods vehicle. With very few exceptions, it's just the larger ones 
which are prohibited.


Mark

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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-09-26 13:48, David Woolley wrote:

> In that specific case (7.5T), which is the most common, it would be hgv=no, 
> as that is the defining maximum authorised mass for an HGV.  I'd consider 
> maxweight, for higher limits.

Is a bus/coach considered to be a goods vehicle for these purposes? They
are usually heavier than 7.5t. In the case of hgv=no then they would
still be allowed, but maxweight=18000 might erroneously imply a
prohibition of other vehicles as well. Some larger coaches can far
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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[SK53]

I can only answer for my self. I generally tag these I usually see with a
plain hgv=destination, possibly with maxweight=7.5t. The sign is very rare
without an additional plate allowing for deliveries. I do this largely
because I want to capture the information rather than because it is the
most precise tag. Such restrictions are extremely common in Leicestershire
& Rutland, and very noticeable along the A606.

I believe the 'proper' (i.e., more precise) tagging approach is to use a
conditional restriction, but I'm not sure which property (maxweight or hgv
is most widely used).

A number of other values are present on taginfo.

It may also be useful to map the signs explicitly as this may enable the
actual tagging of the restriction to be refined (made more complex) over
time.

Jerry

On Wed, 26 Sep 2018 at 12:36, Tobias Zwick  wrote:

> Hey there
>
> I can't believe this didn't come up before - or maybe it did but was not
> documented in the wiki.
>
> In United Kingdom, how do you tag roads signed with this sign?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_622.1A.svg
>
> Note that the GVM for which the sign applies is given explicitly on the
> sign, which is apparently always the case for any HGV-access-restriction
> sign in the UK.
>
> In other words, you will never find a sign like this in the UK:
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C7.svg
>
> Greetings
> Tobias
>
> P.S: GVM is gross vehicle mass
>  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_vehicle_weight_rating
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[David Woolley]

In that specific case (7.5T), which is the most common, it would be 
hgv=no, as that is the defining maximum authorised mass for an HGV.  I'd 
consider maxweight, for higher limits.


The traditional UK term is Gross Weight, but the, more scientifically 
correct, term now used, in formal documents, is Maximum Authorised Mass.



On 26/09/18 12:35, Tobias Zwick wrote:

Hey there

I can't believe this didn't come up before - or maybe it did but was not
documented in the wiki.

In United Kingdom, how do you tag roads signed with this sign?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_622.1A.svg

Note that the GVM for which the sign applies is given explicitly on the
sign, which is apparently always the case for any HGV-access-restriction
sign in the UK.

In other words, you will never find a sign like this in the UK:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C7.svg

Greetings
Tobias

P.S: GVM is gross vehicle mass
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_vehicle_weight_rating

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[Talk-GB] Access restrictions for lorries above a certain GVM

[Tobias Zwick]

Hey there

I can't believe this didn't come up before - or maybe it did but was not
documented in the wiki.

In United Kingdom, how do you tag roads signed with this sign?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:UK_traffic_sign_622.1A.svg

Note that the GVM for which the sign applies is given explicitly on the
sign, which is apparently always the case for any HGV-access-restriction
sign in the UK.

In other words, you will never find a sign like this in the UK:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nederlands_verkeersbord_C7.svg

Greetings
Tobias

P.S: GVM is gross vehicle mass
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_vehicle_weight_rating

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