Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 12:32 AM, Dave F. dave...@madasafish.com wrote: On 26/10/2010 10:04, Dave Stubbs wrote: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Andy Mabbetta...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 25 October 2010 12:47, Ed Avise...@waniasset.com wrote: Shaun McDonaldsh...@... writes: I have been adding the three letter short code as the ref tag when I have been editing around stations. e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/9779990 OK so 'ref' is the de facto convention for this three-letter code. Wouldn't it be better to have a unique key? If not, why not? (Genuine question; I'm relatively new to this.) The contents of the ref tag is generally the publicly used reference code for an object. For roads that'd be M1 or A303 etc. For stations it'd be the three letter code that's in all the timetables and gets printed on online booking receipts etc. There's no harm in using ref for this as it doesn't really conflict with anything else and it's what the key is for. To do a special key would be a lot like doing a special key for station_name -- there's little point and it just makes it harder for everyone to remember what the keys are :-) I disagree. It should be 'station_code' which is de facto, as used on Wikipedia even on National Rail Enquiries. Using that unique descriptive key clarifies what it is your trying to describe makes it *easier* for everyone to remember.. Sorry, yes, I should have been more precise about why it's easier to remember. Obviously there's nothing hard to remember about the tag station_code, I was more thinking of the sheer number of tags that get created if we were to follow this method. Instead we tend much more towards key reuse which lowers the total number of keys for ancillary data and hopefully makes the learning process more tractable. The meta discussion over whether reusing ref or using station_code is more memorable, is, I'm sure you'll agree, a rather pointless discussion :-) Given the number of editors these days supporting presets, most users will hopefully be insulated from this. The field can even be aliased Three Letter Station Code if we make localised presets files for Potlatch2/JOSM. Dave ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
On 24 October 2010 23:46, Shaun McDonald sh...@shaunmcdonald.me.uk wrote: National Rail seems to use a three-letter code for stations - does that have any relationship to this NaPTAN code? Nailsea and Backwell's is NLS, which does not appear in the Naptan code, 9100NAILSEA listed above. Wikipedia has all these codes, in article infoboxes. I would urge that they be added to OSM. I have been adding the three letter short code as the ref tag when I have been editing around stations. e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/9779990 As have I, indeed I added a job lot of them to lots of inner south London stations back in January: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/3709824 Tom -- http://tom.acrewoods.net http://twitter.com/tom_chance ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Andy Mabbett a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 25 October 2010 12:47, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: Shaun McDonald sh...@... writes: I have been adding the three letter short code as the ref tag when I have been editing around stations. e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/9779990 OK so 'ref' is the de facto convention for this three-letter code. Wouldn't it be better to have a unique key? If not, why not? (Genuine question; I'm relatively new to this.) The contents of the ref tag is generally the publicly used reference code for an object. For roads that'd be M1 or A303 etc. For stations it'd be the three letter code that's in all the timetables and gets printed on online booking receipts etc. There's no harm in using ref for this as it doesn't really conflict with anything else and it's what the key is for. To do a special key would be a lot like doing a special key for station_name -- there's little point and it just makes it harder for everyone to remember what the keys are :-) The main reason you would do a special key is if there where two distinct references of equal prominence and it wasn't appropriate to use loc_ref (local), int_ref (international) etc. In this case the naptan code should use it's own key because nobody (in the general public at least) actually uses them, leaving the ref key open for the common 3 letter code. Dave ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
On 26/10/2010 10:04, Dave Stubbs wrote: On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 9:11 PM, Andy Mabbetta...@pigsonthewing.org.uk wrote: On 25 October 2010 12:47, Ed Avise...@waniasset.com wrote: Shaun McDonaldsh...@... writes: I have been adding the three letter short code as the ref tag when I have been editing around stations. e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/9779990 OK so 'ref' is the de facto convention for this three-letter code. Wouldn't it be better to have a unique key? If not, why not? (Genuine question; I'm relatively new to this.) The contents of the ref tag is generally the publicly used reference code for an object. For roads that'd be M1 or A303 etc. For stations it'd be the three letter code that's in all the timetables and gets printed on online booking receipts etc. There's no harm in using ref for this as it doesn't really conflict with anything else and it's what the key is for. To do a special key would be a lot like doing a special key for station_name -- there's little point and it just makes it harder for everyone to remember what the keys are :-) I disagree. It should be 'station_code' which is de facto, as used on Wikipedia even on National Rail Enquiries. Using that unique descriptive key clarifies what it is your trying to describe makes it *easier* for everyone to remember.. Cheers Dave F. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
Shaun McDonald sh...@... writes: can we also load the NaPTAN codes for railway stations? National Rail seems to use a three-letter code for stations Wikipedia has all these codes, in article infoboxes. I would urge that they be added to OSM. I have been adding the three letter short code as the ref tag when I have been editing around stations. e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/9779990 OK so 'ref' is the de facto convention for this three-letter code. I'll see if I can populate all of the missing ones at some point. -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
[Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
We're importing the location of bus stops from NaPTAN, can we also load the NaPTAN codes for railway stations? All the GB railway stations are in OSM, but they're just identified by name. For example my local station: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/492098581 It is tagged like this: name: Nailsea and Backwell railway: station source: GPX + NPE The name is fragile thing to link on, somebody might change the 'and' to ''. I'd like to add the NaPTAN code to every station, using the same tag as bus stops, 'naptan:AtcoCode'. For example Nailsea and Backwell would be tagged like this: naptan:AtcoCode: 9100NAILSEA In NaPTAN all railway stations codes start with 9100. http://data.gov.uk/dataset/nptdr The recently released National Public Transport Data Repository (NPTDR) uses NaPTAN codes to refer to bus stops and stations. Making it easy to match NPTDR data with railway stations in OSM would be a good thing. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN says the dataset is Crown copyright but we have special permission to load it into OSM as CC-BY-SA. Would that include adding the NaPTAN codes to railway stations? Would this bulk import have to be done by the NaPTAN user, or would it be okay for me to use my account to load the data? http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/NaPTAN -- Edward. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
On 10/24/10 20:26, o...@edwardbetts.com wrote: We're importing the location of bus stops from NaPTAN, can we also load the NaPTAN codes for railway stations? snip http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN says the dataset is Crown copyright but we have special permission to load it into OSM as CC-BY-SA. Would that include adding the NaPTAN codes to railway stations? Would this bulk import have to be done by the NaPTAN user, or would it be okay for me to use my account to load the data? http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/NaPTAN This was all on the todo list, but I never got around to doing anything about it. I'd be happy to hand over the account details if others have the time and motivation to do it. (I also need to get around to importing the remaining requested counties for bus stops...) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
o...@... writes: We're importing the location of bus stops from NaPTAN, can we also load the NaPTAN codes for railway stations? I'd like to add the NaPTAN code to every station, using the same tag as bus stops, 'naptan:AtcoCode'. For example Nailsea and Backwell would be tagged like this: naptan:AtcoCode: 9100NAILSEA National Rail seems to use a three-letter code for stations - does that have any relationship to this NaPTAN code? For example http://traintimes.org.uk/london/edinburgh/ shows that Edinburgh is EDB, Euston is EUS and so on. From a technical point of view, I think importing this data should be unproblematic. Unlike the bus stop import, it won't create lots of extra objects on the map, and also unlike the bus stops, the data won't need manual checking after the upload. (It's just loading a new tag for stations that have already been added to the map from other sources.) The only difficulty would be stations that exist as two or more objects - some manual intervention might be needed to choose the right one(s). -- Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
Great idea, but don't forget to think about any consequences of the likely license change. If the data is not available under the new licence the data will be removed from the main database and consigned to a pre-change mirror which won't be maintained. Which I guess also applies to the imports done to date? Kevin --Original Message-- From: o...@edwardbetts.com Sender: talk-gb-boun...@openstreetmap.org To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org Sent: 24 Oct 2010 20:26 Subject: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes We're importing the location of bus stops from NaPTAN, can we also load the NaPTAN codes for railway stations? All the GB railway stations are in OSM, but they're just identified by name. For example my local station: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/492098581 It is tagged like this: name: Nailsea and Backwell railway: station source: GPX + NPE The name is fragile thing to link on, somebody might change the 'and' to ''. I'd like to add the NaPTAN code to every station, using the same tag as bus stops, 'naptan:AtcoCode'. For example Nailsea and Backwell would be tagged like this: naptan:AtcoCode: 9100NAILSEA In NaPTAN all railway stations codes start with 9100. http://data.gov.uk/dataset/nptdr The recently released National Public Transport Data Repository (NPTDR) uses NaPTAN codes to refer to bus stops and stations. Making it easy to match NPTDR data with railway stations in OSM would be a good thing. http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/NaPTAN says the dataset is Crown copyright but we have special permission to load it into OSM as CC-BY-SA. Would that include adding the NaPTAN codes to railway stations? Would this bulk import have to be done by the NaPTAN user, or would it be okay for me to use my account to load the data? http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/NaPTAN -- Edward. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] NaPTAN station codes
On 24 Oct 2010, at 21:41, Andy Mabbett wrote: On 24 October 2010 21:12, Ed Avis e...@waniasset.com wrote: o...@... writes: We're importing the location of bus stops from NaPTAN, can we also load the NaPTAN codes for railway stations? National Rail seems to use a three-letter code for stations - does that have any relationship to this NaPTAN code? Nailsea and Backwell's is NLS, which does not appear in the Naptan code, 9100NAILSEA listed above. Wikipedia has all these codes, in article infoboxes. I would urge that they be added to OSM. I have been adding the three letter short code as the ref tag when I have been editing around stations. e.g. http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/node/9779990 I have also been adding that tag tfl_travelzone, in the hope that at some point there will be a map showing the travel map zone in a geographic layout. Shaun ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
