Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[Nick Bearman]

Hi,

Thank you everyone for your replies (both on and off list) - I really
appreciate the time you've taken to write them. There is a lot to think
about in there, which I will spend some time doing.

I've not made any decisions yet (the university have kept me quite busy
since December) but I will let you know what I end up doing.

Best wishes, and many thanks again.
Nick.

On 27 November 2014 at 13:50, Nick Bearman 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I hope this is the correct place to post this - if not, please be kind to
> me (as a newbie) and point me in the right direction!
>
> I'm teaching a 1st year Undergraduate module on GIS with approx. 200
> Planning and/or Geography students on it next year (Oct 2015 - Mar 2016).
> This is an Introduction to GIS module, and I'd also like to explore the
> potential of getting the students to explore and contribute to OSM. This
> is still quite a way off so I am still developing the material and what the
> students are going to cover elsewhere in the module. I've found various
> bits of material on using OSM in this form (
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education, http://teachosm.org/en/w,
> http://learnosm.org/en/osm-data/).
>
> I'm looking for someone who has completed something similar in the past
> and has any recommendation on how to do this most effectively, and what
> areas in Liverpool would benefit most from the students contribution.
> Currently, giving the time available to the students, I would be thinking
> of a desk-based digitisation exercise, but this can be flexible. I've
> already contacted John McKerrell but I'm interested to talk to other
> mappers in Liverpool that can suggest areas that need the most attention
> and/or who might like to be involved.
>
> Please feel free to get in touch (on-list or off-list) if you'd like more
> details.
>
> Best wishes,
> Nick.
>
> --
>
> Dr Nick Bearman | Research Associate & University Teacher |
> n.bear...@liverpool.ac.uk
> Department of Geography and Planning | University of Liverpool
>



-- 

Dr Nick Bearman | Research Associate & University Teacher
Department of Geography and Planning | University of Liverpool
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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[Paul Bivand]

As an ex Liverpool Uni student (late 1970s)...

These are 1st years so beginners - not doing theses yet.

However, something that makes them think as well as do can be useful.

The Vaughan & Geddes paper here: http://www.radstats.org.uk/no099/index.htm
gives something to look at in terms of impacts of connectedness and links to 
social factors. 

Liverpool used to have segregated orange and green (Belfast-style) areas that 
were broken up by slum clearance in the 1960s associated with building large 
estates on the edge of town (now some in Knowsley). 

The physical form of terraces, social housing and more recent housing 
association building will reflect these and other changes. As will how bus 
routes reflect housing, work etc patterns. Bus route relations may be more 
advanced than this course

http://datashine.org.uk/#zoom=14&lat=53.407&lon=-2.95717&layers=BTTT&table=QS119EW&col=QS119EW0006&ramp=YlOrRd
 
uses OS buildings but does not go down to high zoom levels. 

Filling in buildings in OSM especially in areas where visible smartphones may 
not be totally advisable may be especially useful.  Walking or cycling through 
with gps in pocket may help determining connectivity.

More here on how to do the datashine maps. 
http://oobrien.com/2012/02/reworking-booth-geodemographics-of-housing/

Paul Bivand





On Thursday 27 Nov 2014 23:05:42 David Woolley wrote:
> On 27/11/14 14:09, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> > Nice initiative! I think adding building outlines is quite useful, and
> > has relatively low risk that the students break things (an important
> 
> The disadvantage, here, is that it is a vocational type exercise, not an
> academic one.  An academic one should include a significant element of
> mapping for the database, should involve higher level decisions than
> needed just for drawing, and might want to make the students actually
> consider things like whether data can legally be used.
> 
> Whereas, for a normal new mapper, you don't want to put them in a
> position where they need to make complex decisions that they may not
> appreciate, for an academic course, you want to give people an
> appreciation of the need for those decisions.
> 
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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[Andy Robinson]

/me looks forward to the thesis on adding a tagged node to OSM ;-)

-Original Message-
From: David Woolley [mailto:for...@david-woolley.me.uk] 
Sent: 27 November 2014 23:06
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) 
volunteers)

On 27/11/14 14:09, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Nice initiative! I think adding building outlines is quite useful, and 
> has relatively low risk that the students break things (an important

The disadvantage, here, is that it is a vocational type exercise, not an 
academic one.  An academic one should include a significant element of mapping 
for the database, should involve higher level decisions than needed just for 
drawing, and might want to make the students actually consider things like 
whether data can legally be used.

Whereas, for a normal new mapper, you don't want to put them in a position 
where they need to make complex decisions that they may not appreciate, for an 
academic course, you want to give people an appreciation of the need for those 
decisions.

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[David Woolley]

On 27/11/14 14:09, Matthijs Melissen wrote:

Nice initiative! I think adding building outlines is quite useful, and
has relatively low risk that the students break things (an important


The disadvantage, here, is that it is a vocational type exercise, not an 
academic one.  An academic one should include a significant element of 
mapping for the database, should involve higher level decisions than 
needed just for drawing, and might want to make the students actually 
consider things like whether data can legally be used.


Whereas, for a normal new mapper, you don't want to put them in a 
position where they need to make complex decisions that they may not 
appreciate, for an academic course, you want to give people an 
appreciation of the need for those decisions.


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[SomeoneElse]

On 27/11/2014 13:50, Nick Bearman wrote:
and what areas in Liverpool would benefit most from the students 
contribution. Currently, giving the time available to the students, I 
would be thinking of a desk-based digitisation exercise, but this can 
be flexible.


Based on a fleeting visit to Liverpool earlier in the year, I'd agree 
with most of what's already been said.


Certainly the areas outside the centre of town are less well mapped than 
the centre; even just looking out towards Wavertree most looks still 
just traced from aerial imagery rather than a record of what's there 
(though I notice that the construction areas east of the University that 
weren't marked when I was there previously are now mapped, so there's 
clearly lots of ongoing work there).


A couple of thoughts spring to mind:

o One is to try and get your students to map their home area or some 
other area that they're familiar with rather than the centre of town.  
Even just using aerial imagery they're going to be able to say things 
like "hey! I know that there's a footpath joining these two roads" or 
"there's a gate on that alley that stops you getting through".


o Another is to think perhaps about particular topics rather than 
particular areas - such as the project in the West Midlands to get 
listed buildings (and more) mapped:


http://www.mappa-mercia.org/maps/west-midlands-heritage-map

A topic might also be something like "mapping all the restaurants in 
Chinatown from food hygiene data" or "mapping the historical remains of 
the former Liverpool docks" - but there are lots of other possibilities.


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 27 November 2014 at 21:09, SK53  wrote:
> One other point about metrics such as POI collection: it will greatly depend
> on POI density (city centre vs. suburbs) and the current number of POIs
> already mapped. It's fundamentally easier to map somewhere de novo rather
> than identifying what is missing and what has changed in somewhere which has
> already been partially mapped.

Interesting to see how our mapping styles are so different. For me
re-mapping an already mapped area is much faster than mapping from
scratch. Probably also something to do with the fact that I'm mapping
with my phone. Maybe it's time for a new phone battery for you by the
way?

I know this is not relevant to Nick, sorry for hijacking the topic...

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[SK53]

All my metrics are based on survey followed by data entry. I am sure direct
entry using OsmAND or Vespucci has a significant advantage of avoiding the
some of the work involved in the data entry phase. Unfortunately, using the
GPS on my phone limits the time for data collection to an hour or less. I
doubt if either of these tools are appropriate for a course-based
assignment simply because of the range of phones students might possess.

My rough estimates are that I can collect around 250 house numbers in an
hour (either with KeyPadMapper3, a notebook, or a digital audio recorder).
Photo mapping greatly increases the amount of data which can be collected
because facts can be checked. Similarly using FHRS address data means that
trying to record POIs and their addresses can be simplified simply by using
the FHRS data after the survey. In practice most places really require a
second survey to correct omissions or peculiarities which only become
obvious when entering the data.

One other point about metrics such as POI collection: it will greatly
depend on POI density (city centre vs. suburbs) and the current number of
POIs already mapped. It's fundamentally easier to map somewhere de novo
rather than identifying what is missing and what has changed in somewhere
which has already been partially mapped.

In general the longest part of adding data is the building outlines.

There has been some discussion on this topic in the past on this list.

Jerry

On 27 November 2014 at 15:34, Matthijs Melissen 
wrote:

> On 27 November 2014 at 16:35, SK53  wrote:
> > I have metrics from my own surveys of this type, but would expect a
> shopping
> > street 200 metres long would occupy a student for perhaps a couple of
> hours
> > (certainly my first shopping street, Floral Street in London, took quite
> a
> > long time). In general data collection is much faster than data entry (a
> > ratio of 1:3 or 1:5 for experienced mappers probably more for
> inexperienced
> > mappers).
>
> I think this really depends on the mapper and the method used. My
> collection:entry rate is somewhere between 1:1 and 2:1. In retail
> areas, I collect roughly 80 points of interest per hour, and I can
> enter, very roughly, about 100 points of interest per hour.
>
> I collect data by adding POI as favourites in OsmAND (using both the
> map and Bing layers), and then I export my favourites to JOSM. That
> way, I don't need to type out POI names twice (still a check for typos
> made on mobile is necessary of course), so it goes relatively quick.
>
> Of course, metrics like this are not useful to estimate the time
> students will spend on an assignment. I was taught that at university
> level, students will take roughly eight times as much time to complete
> an exercise as their instructor, and I think in this case the factor
> will even be larger.
>
> -- Matthijs
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 27 November 2014 at 16:35, SK53  wrote:
> I have metrics from my own surveys of this type, but would expect a shopping
> street 200 metres long would occupy a student for perhaps a couple of hours
> (certainly my first shopping street, Floral Street in London, took quite a
> long time). In general data collection is much faster than data entry (a
> ratio of 1:3 or 1:5 for experienced mappers probably more for inexperienced
> mappers).

I think this really depends on the mapper and the method used. My
collection:entry rate is somewhere between 1:1 and 2:1. In retail
areas, I collect roughly 80 points of interest per hour, and I can
enter, very roughly, about 100 points of interest per hour.

I collect data by adding POI as favourites in OsmAND (using both the
map and Bing layers), and then I export my favourites to JOSM. That
way, I don't need to type out POI names twice (still a check for typos
made on mobile is necessary of course), so it goes relatively quick.

Of course, metrics like this are not useful to estimate the time
students will spend on an assignment. I was taught that at university
level, students will take roughly eight times as much time to complete
an exercise as their instructor, and I think in this case the factor
will even be larger.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[SK53]

I agree with Matthijs that this is a nice initiative, and I'm very pleased
that you have started this discussion.

I am not a Merseysider myself, but I lots of family in the area. Although I
visit fairly frequently I rarely get the opportunity to map, but can form a
general impression about the local level of mapping detail.

My general impression of mapping both on the Wirral, and in Liverpool
proper, is that what the area seriously lacks is some
decent on the ground surveys. For instance the roads located here
 in Everton have
undergone extensive re-development since the available aerial photos
(disclaimer, I believe some of the houses which have been demolished were
built by my great-grandfather). An excellent resource, although not
suitable for direct use in OSM, is the Flickr photos by Russ Oakes
(Liverpool Suburbia) https://www.flickr.com/photos/liverpoolsuburbia/. (I
have in the past briefly discussed the use of his photos for OSM, but have
not followed this (see for example this discussion ).
He may be amenable to use of his photos for his project.

I think digitising buildings in Central Liverpool is quite difficult, but
the suburbs are OK (as demonstrated by recent work on The Wirral): I
recently added a number of food outlets based on Food Hygiene Open Data,
and better building outlines would certainly help for this. In Nottingham
we have found that really we also need street-level photos to assist in
correct interpretation of the aerial images. The biggest caveat is ensuring
that any building outlines added are actually still extant.

I don't know to what extent you will want to assess individual students
with this work, but here are some suggestions for things which might work:


   - Get individual students to create Mapillary
   
sequences
   for streets in the city centre (I imagine Liverpool One is not suitable as
   most shopping centres prevent photography). Experience shows that Sunday
   mornings are the optimal time to collect such photo sequences: mainly
   because there are fewer people about.
   - Use the Mapillary sequences to map POIs (mainly shops, restaurants and
   pubs). (The existing sequences can be used to trial this approach).
   - Add address data from Food Hygiene Open Data
    where available
   - Use Mapillary sequences and the available aerial imagery to create
   building outlines. (Other sources such as Geograph photos can also assist).

Tasking can be done by individual street or a set of postcodes
(particularly useful if cross-referenced to the FHRS Open Data). The
advantage of using Mapillary is that this provides additional sources of
information about Liverpool which can also be used by other mappers.

I have metrics from my own surveys of this type, but would expect a
shopping street 200 metres long would occupy a student for perhaps a couple
of hours (certainly my first shopping street, Floral Street in London, took
quite a long time). In general data collection is much faster than data
entry (a ratio of 1:3 or 1:5 for experienced mappers probably more for
inexperienced mappers).

The reason I suggest this approach is that unlike many OSM tasks it can be
fairly readily bounded (all shops in a given postcode is usually < 40), and
introduces a wider range of mapping techniques other than digitising
buildings (as well as ontology issues, which might make for interesting
classroom discussion).

Of course I would like to see more work done in the suburbs, but suspect
that this would be impractical to manage for a large student assignment.
Getting students to add their local knowledge using the OSM Note facility
may also be beneficial.

The key problem with OSM assignments is that mastering the editors may take
most of the time allowed for the practical. There are a number of useful
presentations on using OSM in a variety of teaching environments: I dont
have a list to hand, but I think most SotM-US conferences have featured at
least one.

Hope these comments might be of some use.

Jerry Clough





On 27 November 2014 at 11:09, Matthijs Melissen 
wrote:

> On 27 November 2014 at 13:50, Nick Bearman 
> wrote:
> > I'm looking for someone who has completed something similar in the past
> and
> > has any recommendation on how to do this most effectively, and what
> areas in
> > Liverpool would benefit most from the students contribution. Currently,
> > giving the time available to the students, I would be thinking of a
> > desk-based digitisation exercise, but this can be flexible. I've already
> > contacted John McKerrell but I'm interested to talk to other mappers in
> > Liverpool that can suggest areas that need the most attention and/or who
> > might like to be involved.
>
> Nice initiative! I think adding building outlines is quite useful, and
> has relativel

Re: [Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 27 November 2014 at 13:50, Nick Bearman  wrote:
> I'm looking for someone who has completed something similar in the past and
> has any recommendation on how to do this most effectively, and what areas in
> Liverpool would benefit most from the students contribution. Currently,
> giving the time available to the students, I would be thinking of a
> desk-based digitisation exercise, but this can be flexible. I've already
> contacted John McKerrell but I'm interested to talk to other mappers in
> Liverpool that can suggest areas that need the most attention and/or who
> might like to be involved.

Nice initiative! I think adding building outlines is quite useful, and
has relatively low risk that the students break things (an important
consideration, especially with such a large group). West of the
Mersey, most buildings are added, but East of the Mersey, there are
hardly any building outlines yet. I think with such a large group, you
should be able to cover the entire city even if you give everyone a
tiny area to do. Probably best to split the city into several 'tasks'
yourself to prevent overlap?

Make sure that your students have a reference to your contact details
somewhere, in their profile or changeset comment perhaps, so that
mappers can contact you if something goes wrong.

I am not a local mapper in Liverpool, make sure to also get support /
approval from the locals.

-- Matthijs

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[Talk-GB] OSM University of Liverpool exercise (or 200 free(ish) volunteers)

[Nick Bearman]

Hi,

I hope this is the correct place to post this - if not, please be kind to
me (as a newbie) and point me in the right direction!

I'm teaching a 1st year Undergraduate module on GIS with approx. 200
Planning and/or Geography students on it next year (Oct 2015 - Mar 2016).
This is an Introduction to GIS module, and I'd also like to explore the
potential of getting the students to explore and contribute to OSM. This is
still quite a way off so I am still developing the material and what the
students are going to cover elsewhere in the module. I've found various
bits of material on using OSM in this form (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education, http://teachosm.org/en/w,
http://learnosm.org/en/osm-data/).

I'm looking for someone who has completed something similar in the past and
has any recommendation on how to do this most effectively, and what areas
in Liverpool would benefit most from the students contribution. Currently,
giving the time available to the students, I would be thinking of a
desk-based digitisation exercise, but this can be flexible. I've already
contacted John McKerrell but I'm interested to talk to other mappers in
Liverpool that can suggest areas that need the most attention and/or who
might like to be involved.

Please feel free to get in touch (on-list or off-list) if you'd like more
details.

Best wishes,
Nick.

-- 

Dr Nick Bearman | Research Associate & University Teacher |
n.bear...@liverpool.ac.uk
Department of Geography and Planning | University of Liverpool
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