Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Lester Caine]

On 17/01/16 17:28, Steve Doerr wrote:
> One possible approach is simply to draw each school's boundary so as to
> include the shared area (i.e. overlapping). If that's not possible, then
> it implies that the shared area really 'belongs' to one of the schools
> and the other one merely 'borrows' it at certain times.

Like Andy, I do feel that the whole area is 'amenity=school' and while
the government seems to be planning to sell off any land, on the whole,
the council owns the land and their schools use it as required. The
shared facilities do not belong to one school or another, and certainly
the ones I have personal knowledge off do not have parking areas
segregated to one or other building so there is not a 'shaded area' at all?

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Stuart Reynolds]

Also nearby there are what used to be two separate single-sex schools which are 
now combined as a mixed school. Two sites about a mile apart.


You should use the site relation for this. I was doing this for a lower and 
upper school in Southend, until I realised that the lower school had closed at 
the end of the last school year and so removed it. The only issue is that I had 
tagged the site relation with the edubase number and the school name, and it 
isn’t picked up by the matching algorithm - but that isn’t to say that it isn’t 
right.

Regards,
Stuart


Stuart Reynolds
for traveline south east & anglia



On 17 Jan 2016, at 13:46, Colin Spiller 
mailto:co...@thespillers.org.uk>> wrote:

Here in West Yorkshire, I have a newly-rebuilt Beckfoot School, sharing the 
site and facilities with Hazelbeck Special School. As far as I know, there 
isn't anything dividing the two. Robert has these entries for them (thanks 
Robert - great job!):

139975  BD16 
1EE   
Beckfoot School

139977  BD16 
1EE   
Hazelbeck Special School

They do have their own websites: http://www.beckfoot.org/ and 
http://www.hazelbeck.org/ !

Also nearby there are what used to be two separate single-sex schools which are 
now combined as a mixed school. Two sites about a mile apart.

Any recommendations as to how I should map these two extremes gratefully 
received!
Thanks
Colin, West Yorks


On 17/01/16 13:14, Lester Caine wrote:

On 17/01/16 12:40, Dave F. wrote:


Although I'm uncertain of a perfect solution as both the entrance and
recreation ground appears to be shared in Ed's example, I find there's
usually a defining boundary around schools that are adjacent to each
other. Especially infant schools where they don't want the little ones
wandering off. Looking at the site using a website that shall not be
mentioned, it appears to use a fence & the school building itself as the
barrier. On ground conformation will, of course, be required.


Situations where a school has a secure play area which is used by
Nursary and first school pupils at different times is not unusual,
especially now the 'Nursery' provision for younger children is being
added around the country. Ideally for us this would just extend the
range of an existing school, but there seems to be financial advantages
in creating a separate 'school'? Yes closer inspection may produce
different results, but to get the key data in now would be nice, and it
can be refined later?



As mapped ATM both the fhrs:id & ref:edubase tags aren't associated with
amenity=school which is not ideal for filtering data.


Proper quoting would have included this comment in with mine about
whether amenity=school was appropriate on the outer boundary when it is
difficult to separate multiple edubase refs inside the area. Just as
there are a number of ways off adding 'school' to an item, there may be
a case for 'landuse=school' where one is then going to add
'amenity=school' to the internal elements? Be that simple nodes for each
occupant of a high rise building, or the primary building of each where
several other buildings and play areas are shared during the day.

For filtering data I think that 'amenity=school' makes sense when linked
with all the primary data for each school, which ever country is looked
at, so some means of identifying the landuse for a multiple school area
is the logical follow through. I'm very tempted at the moment to simply
remove the Evesham boundary 'amenity=school' tag and replace it with on
on each primary building which will at least allow the current
verification to cross them off the list. What ever way things are
progressed, something needs to be changed.

( And in relation to mass adding wikidata tags to the CURRENT school
references, this is premature since in many cases the wrong area is tagged )





--
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co...@thespillers.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Andy Robinson]

I've no idea if it does but it sure feels like Northwich Hartford Campus takes 
the biscuit with respect to shared resource. 6 schools plus the college 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/53.2475/-2.5302. I have some cleaning up 
and more work to do on it which I'm leaving until I've done a ground survey.

My feeling is that where the whole area is owned by the local authority then 
it's appropriate to mark the whole area as one entity as amenity=school and 
then place the individual school info on the relevant school building.

Cheers
Andy

-Original Message-
From: Steve Doerr [mailto:doerr.step...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 17 January 2016 17:28
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one 
site

On 17/01/2016 13:14, Lester Caine wrote:

> Situations where a school has a secure play area which is used by 
> Nursary and first school pupils at different times is not unusual

One possible approach is simply to draw each school's boundary so as to include 
the shared area (i.e. overlapping). If that's not possible, then it implies 
that the shared area really 'belongs' to one of the schools and the other one 
merely 'borrows' it at certain times.

--
Steve

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Steve Doerr]

On 17/01/2016 13:14, Lester Caine wrote:

Situations where a school has a secure play area which is used by 
Nursary and first school pupils at different times is not unusual


One possible approach is simply to draw each school's boundary so as to 
include the shared area (i.e. overlapping). If that's not possible, then 
it implies that the shared area really 'belongs' to one of the schools 
and the other one merely 'borrows' it at certain times.


--
Steve

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Dave F.]

On 17/01/2016 13:46, Colin Spiller wrote:
Here in West Yorkshire, I have a newly-rebuilt Beckfoot School, 
sharing the site and facilities with Hazelbeck Special School. As far 
as I know, there isn't anything dividing the two. 


I'd be /very/ surprised if there wasn't a protect barrier around a 
special school.




Also nearby there are what used to be two separate single-sex schools 
which are now combined as a mixed school. Two sites about a mile apart.


Do they have separate fhrs:id & ref:edubase?

I've used 'operator' to combine schools which are separated by distance 
& names (Junior, senior; upper, lower etc).


Dave F.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Colin Spiller]

Here in West Yorkshire, I have a newly-rebuilt Beckfoot School, sharing 
the site and facilities with Hazelbeck Special School. As far as I know, 
there isn't anything dividing the two. Robert has these entries for them 
(thanks Robert - great job!):


139975 	BD16 1EE 
 
Beckfoot School



139977 	BD16 1EE 
 
Hazelbeck Special School



They do have their own websites: http://www.beckfoot.org/ and 
http://www.hazelbeck.org/ !


Also nearby there are what used to be two separate single-sex schools 
which are now combined as a mixed school. Two sites about a mile apart.


Any recommendations as to how I should map these two extremes gratefully 
received!

Thanks
Colin, West Yorks


On 17/01/16 13:14, Lester Caine wrote:

On 17/01/16 12:40, Dave F. wrote:

Although I'm uncertain of a perfect solution as both the entrance and
recreation ground appears to be shared in Ed's example, I find there's
usually a defining boundary around schools that are adjacent to each
other. Especially infant schools where they don't want the little ones
wandering off. Looking at the site using a website that shall not be
mentioned, it appears to use a fence & the school building itself as the
barrier. On ground conformation will, of course, be required.

Situations where a school has a secure play area which is used by
Nursary and first school pupils at different times is not unusual,
especially now the 'Nursery' provision for younger children is being
added around the country. Ideally for us this would just extend the
range of an existing school, but there seems to be financial advantages
in creating a separate 'school'? Yes closer inspection may produce
different results, but to get the key data in now would be nice, and it
can be refined later?


As mapped ATM both the fhrs:id & ref:edubase tags aren't associated with
amenity=school which is not ideal for filtering data.

Proper quoting would have included this comment in with mine about
whether amenity=school was appropriate on the outer boundary when it is
difficult to separate multiple edubase refs inside the area. Just as
there are a number of ways off adding 'school' to an item, there may be
a case for 'landuse=school' where one is then going to add
'amenity=school' to the internal elements? Be that simple nodes for each
occupant of a high rise building, or the primary building of each where
several other buildings and play areas are shared during the day.

For filtering data I think that 'amenity=school' makes sense when linked
with all the primary data for each school, which ever country is looked
at, so some means of identifying the landuse for a multiple school area
is the logical follow through. I'm very tempted at the moment to simply
remove the Evesham boundary 'amenity=school' tag and replace it with on
on each primary building which will at least allow the current
verification to cross them off the list. What ever way things are
progressed, something needs to be changed.

( And in relation to mass adding wikidata tags to the CURRENT school
references, this is premature since in many cases the wrong area is tagged )




--
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co...@thespillers.org.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Lester Caine]

On 17/01/16 12:40, Dave F. wrote:
> Although I'm uncertain of a perfect solution as both the entrance and
> recreation ground appears to be shared in Ed's example, I find there's
> usually a defining boundary around schools that are adjacent to each
> other. Especially infant schools where they don't want the little ones
> wandering off. Looking at the site using a website that shall not be
> mentioned, it appears to use a fence & the school building itself as the
> barrier. On ground conformation will, of course, be required.

Situations where a school has a secure play area which is used by
Nursary and first school pupils at different times is not unusual,
especially now the 'Nursery' provision for younger children is being
added around the country. Ideally for us this would just extend the
range of an existing school, but there seems to be financial advantages
in creating a separate 'school'? Yes closer inspection may produce
different results, but to get the key data in now would be nice, and it
can be refined later?

> As mapped ATM both the fhrs:id & ref:edubase tags aren't associated with
> amenity=school which is not ideal for filtering data.

Proper quoting would have included this comment in with mine about
whether amenity=school was appropriate on the outer boundary when it is
difficult to separate multiple edubase refs inside the area. Just as
there are a number of ways off adding 'school' to an item, there may be
a case for 'landuse=school' where one is then going to add
'amenity=school' to the internal elements? Be that simple nodes for each
occupant of a high rise building, or the primary building of each where
several other buildings and play areas are shared during the day.

For filtering data I think that 'amenity=school' makes sense when linked
with all the primary data for each school, which ever country is looked
at, so some means of identifying the landuse for a multiple school area
is the logical follow through. I'm very tempted at the moment to simply
remove the Evesham boundary 'amenity=school' tag and replace it with on
on each primary building which will at least allow the current
verification to cross them off the list. What ever way things are
progressed, something needs to be changed.

( And in relation to mass adding wikidata tags to the CURRENT school
references, this is premature since in many cases the wrong area is tagged )

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Dave F.]

Although I'm uncertain of a perfect solution as both the entrance and 
recreation ground appears to be shared in Ed's example, I find there's 
usually a defining boundary around schools that are adjacent to each 
other. Especially infant schools where they don't want the little ones 
wandering off. Looking at the site using a website that shall not be 
mentioned, it appears to use a fence & the school building itself as the 
barrier. On ground conformation will, of course, be required.


As mapped ATM both the fhrs:id & ref:edubase tags aren't associated with 
amenity=school which is not ideal for filtering data.


Dave F.

On 17/01/2016 11:29, Lester Caine wrote:

On 17/01/16 09:48, Ed Loach wrote:

I'd like some advice please on how to tag 2 Schools that use the

one site.

Lester replied:

What I've done initially is tagged the buildings of each part with the
correct name and ref:edubase tag, and not put a tag on the site
boundary. This I think will throw errors on the progress page, but in
some cases the sites have a public name ... such as Abbey Park
Schools
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/36626132, but the sites
in
Evesham I don't think make the distinction, with in one case 5
separate
edubase establishments across two sites. Not sure what to do there,
but
tagging the building has to be correct, and the lack of a site name is
not a problem! So should not be flagged as an error.

I was working through some schools last night and found this example:
http://osm.org/go/0EHYuEbV1--?m=
in Wivenhoe. Already well mapped in my opinion with the fhrs:id already on each 
school's building, so I just added ref:edubase to each building too. In this 
situation the amenity=school tag is on the site with the individual schools 
within the sites having the tags that apply to them (but not an additional 
amenity=school tag).

There are a few more examples in Colchester where neither school is currently 
mapped where I've added a note that a survey is required to see if they can be 
distinguished, or whether they might need to end up as two nodes in the same 
building even.

I was cogitating over night as to whether in the case of multiple
establishments it should be the outer boundary that has the 'amenity'
tag or the indivitual buildings, or as you flag up, nodes within a
single building.

If the building is multi-story, with different establishments on each
floor, then current rules almost force a separate node 'on-the-top' for
each, and amenity=school on the building if there is no outside ground
involved?

It would be nice if we can define a rule which allows any data mining to
correctly pick out the multiple tags? So if there is no ref:edubase on
the amenity=school boundary, then there are multiple ref:edubase tags
within the area each with it's own name tag. This allows the area to
have a name which may not actually appear in edubase.

The one that irritates me a little more is the way establishments like
Pershore College - which used to be one of the premier horticultural
establishments - is now just a campus of a larger group of colleges some
of which do not seem to have their own edubase reference. Not sure as
yet if the 'Pershore Group of Colleges' listed is actually 'Pershore
College' and I've currently added that as an alternate name. It is
perhaps too much to expect that the edubase would correctly identify
every location ... I have a similar problem with a couple of 'Federated
Schools' in the area where teaching takes place in two villages, but
there is no actual address listed for the 'satellite', and even from
their own websites no directions to it :(

For my own reference
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/391197329 - no postal address
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/239765335 - not sure if school is open




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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Lester Caine]

On 17/01/16 09:48, Ed Loach wrote:
>> I'd like some advice please on how to tag 2 Schools that use the
>> > one site.
> Lester replied:
>> > What I've done initially is tagged the buildings of each part with the
>> > correct name and ref:edubase tag, and not put a tag on the site
>> > boundary. This I think will throw errors on the progress page, but in
>> > some cases the sites have a public name ... such as Abbey Park
>> > Schools
>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/36626132, but the sites
>> > in
>> > Evesham I don't think make the distinction, with in one case 5
>> > separate
>> > edubase establishments across two sites. Not sure what to do there,
>> > but
>> > tagging the building has to be correct, and the lack of a site name is
>> > not a problem! So should not be flagged as an error.
> I was working through some schools last night and found this example:
> http://osm.org/go/0EHYuEbV1--?m=
> in Wivenhoe. Already well mapped in my opinion with the fhrs:id already on 
> each school's building, so I just added ref:edubase to each building too. In 
> this situation the amenity=school tag is on the site with the individual 
> schools within the sites having the tags that apply to them (but not an 
> additional amenity=school tag). 
> 
> There are a few more examples in Colchester where neither school is currently 
> mapped where I've added a note that a survey is required to see if they can 
> be distinguished, or whether they might need to end up as two nodes in the 
> same building even.

I was cogitating over night as to whether in the case of multiple
establishments it should be the outer boundary that has the 'amenity'
tag or the indivitual buildings, or as you flag up, nodes within a
single building.

If the building is multi-story, with different establishments on each
floor, then current rules almost force a separate node 'on-the-top' for
each, and amenity=school on the building if there is no outside ground
involved?

It would be nice if we can define a rule which allows any data mining to
correctly pick out the multiple tags? So if there is no ref:edubase on
the amenity=school boundary, then there are multiple ref:edubase tags
within the area each with it's own name tag. This allows the area to
have a name which may not actually appear in edubase.

The one that irritates me a little more is the way establishments like
Pershore College - which used to be one of the premier horticultural
establishments - is now just a campus of a larger group of colleges some
of which do not seem to have their own edubase reference. Not sure as
yet if the 'Pershore Group of Colleges' listed is actually 'Pershore
College' and I've currently added that as an alternate name. It is
perhaps too much to expect that the edubase would correctly identify
every location ... I have a similar problem with a couple of 'Federated
Schools' in the area where teaching takes place in two villages, but
there is no actual address listed for the 'satellite', and even from
their own websites no directions to it :(

For my own reference
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/391197329 - no postal address
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/239765335 - not sure if school is open

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Ed Loach]

 On 17/01/16 00:08, alasd...@dunakin.me.uk wrote:
> I'd like some advice please on how to tag 2 Schools that use the
> one site.

Lester replied:
> What I've done initially is tagged the buildings of each part with the
> correct name and ref:edubase tag, and not put a tag on the site
> boundary. This I think will throw errors on the progress page, but in
> some cases the sites have a public name ... such as Abbey Park
> Schools
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/36626132, but the sites
> in
> Evesham I don't think make the distinction, with in one case 5
> separate
> edubase establishments across two sites. Not sure what to do there,
> but
> tagging the building has to be correct, and the lack of a site name is
> not a problem! So should not be flagged as an error.

I was working through some schools last night and found this example:
http://osm.org/go/0EHYuEbV1--?m=
in Wivenhoe. Already well mapped in my opinion with the fhrs:id already on each 
school's building, so I just added ref:edubase to each building too. In this 
situation the amenity=school tag is on the site with the individual schools 
within the sites having the tags that apply to them (but not an additional 
amenity=school tag). 

There are a few more examples in Colchester where neither school is currently 
mapped where I've added a note that a survey is required to see if they can be 
distinguished, or whether they might need to end up as two nodes in the same 
building even.

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[Lester Caine]

On 17/01/16 00:08, alasd...@dunakin.me.uk wrote:
> I'd like some advice please on how to tag 2 Schools that use the one site.

Having just had a 3 hour session working my way across Worcestershire,
I've hit the same problem in a number of sites. Either the Nursery or
Middle School has an independent EduBase reference, or two or three
schools share a single set of playing field and parking facilities.

What I've done initially is tagged the buildings of each part with the
correct name and ref:edubase tag, and not put a tag on the site
boundary. This I think will throw errors on the progress page, but in
some cases the sites have a public name ... such as Abbey Park Schools
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/36626132, but the sites in
Evesham I don't think make the distinction, with in one case 5 separate
edubase establishments across two sites. Not sure what to do there, but
tagging the building has to be correct, and the lack of a site name is
not a problem! So should not be flagged as an error.

Another little niggle ... Morton Fire Service College :) Not on the
edubase list, but definitely a training centre, so again should it just
be ignored on the verifier?

One thing that IS obvious is that we should be messaging some of the
schools to get them to add local details. Something that would encourage
new mappers with an interesting local target. I've put in the outline
and key detail for http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/36625621 but
it has a LOT of detail that could be added and if students get the bug,
then the surrounding area is a little bare as well.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
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[Talk-GB] Quarterly Project : Schools - Multiple Schools on one site

[alasdair]

 Hi,

I'd like some advice please on how to tag 2 Schools that use the one
site.

I'm looking at Blairgowrie where they have a new site "Blairgowrie
Community Campus" and 2 Primary Schools are located there. Each School
has its own seedcode. I can't see any information on the websites of the
campus, either school or the Council to suggest how the building is
divided between the 2 schools or even if it is entirely shared.

I'm aware Stuart Reynolds asked a similar question but I don't think it
was ever answered.

I've used 
name=Blairgowrie Community Campus
alt_name= St Stephen's RC Primary 
alt_name_1= Newhill Primary School 

but I can only add one ref:seedcode

Does anyone have a suggestion?

As a relatively inexperienced mapper, can I just say that I like the
quarterly projects and thanks for the wiki page that answered a lot of
questions.

Thanks,

Alasdair.

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