Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[jonathan]

Form over function, the scourge of modern society.

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 01/11/2015 10:18, tony wroblewski wrote:

The current problem I see with the new default style is that it's very
very difficult to now plan routes on a zoomed out map. I can't clearly
see, for example, what is or isn't a motorway around Birmingham.
Although the new theme looks nice, it is much less practical than the
old one



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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Lester Caine]

On 31/10/15 21:51, Frederik Ramm wrote:
> As for the remainder of your posting, about a "single base" and how all
> this is somehow related to a few colours changing on the osm.org map, I
> think you lost me there.

Answered the colour problem in the thread on New Map Style.

The problem with setting up a tile server is the GENERATION of the tiles
and how that can be modified to provide the other element I've been
banging on about. Viewing the UK at a point in time rather than simply
providing what is the current often incorrect view of the country.
(Roads around Coventry are still wrong while the older views were
actually better). I switched from Apache to Nginx on the servers for the
performance improvements it gives working with the PHP sites I manage,
and it SHOULD be simple to get Nginx to front access to both the tile
server and the editing tools for playing with the style sheets. It
proxies everything else happily enough and serves all the PHP static
material directly.

I got to
http://lsces.co.uk/storage/attachments/71/2071/osm-lsces-z11.png but I
need to pull the nice county boundary twiddle from the French style
sheet now and work out why some mass 'farm' areas still display
incorrectly. That one is a tagging problem in the data!

http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/OSM+Development was where I was back in August,
but I've not been able to get back to that since, and the current fire
fighting will add further to that delay :(

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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Dave F.]

On 31/10/2015 19:51, Frederik Ramm wrote:

We must not allow ourselves to feel like we are a commercial service
provider[*]


I thought the main reason for this rerender /was/ to be more like them, 
to appease the 'why doesn't it look like Google' brigade.


As Fredrick points out we're (almost) all volunteers, all contributing 
to OSM to improve it's quality; be that typing in zeros & ones or, as I 
did yesterday, get wet feet trudging do a survey through a particularly 
boggy wood. All contributors have equal rights to be proud OSM & equal 
rights to criticise.


Dave F.


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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Marc Gemis]

On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 11:18 AM, tony wroblewski 
wrote:

> or isn't a motorway and I think it's almost universally accepted (In
> Europe at least), that motorways are shown in blue.
>

In Belgium international motorways (E-roads, e.g. E19) are indicated with
white on green signs.
National motorways (A-roads, e.g. A12) with black on white.
The printed maps that I remember used red and yellow for motorways, similar
to the rendering in the current German map:  see [1]

I had never seen a blue motorway before OSM.

regards

m

[1]
http://openstreetmap.de/karte.html?zoom=10=51.19771=4.51021=B000TT
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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Marc Gemis]

You could try to contact Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr
He understands English.

regards

m

On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 3:47 AM, Lester Caine  wrote:

> On 31/10/15 02:21, Steve Doerr wrote:
> > Lester,
> >
> > In the short term, would substituting http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/
> > solve your rendering problems?
>
> Interesting thought ... that actually solves one of the todo items on my
> own style sheet tweaks in that the French version actually shows the
> county boundaries a lot clearer, but switching to a large view which has
> French attributions and overlays may simply add to the confusion :(
>
> Having sold clients on the idea that we can show all the right parking
> and access around their premises on a UK style map, many have been
> helping by providing finer detail and corrections in their areas. I KNOW
> the phone will be ringing Monday if not before. In many of their areas
> Google and Bing are simply white blanks!
>
> OK ... where do I get a copy of the osmfr layer style sheet :) That is
> rendering the area around here a lot nicer than the 'defa...@osm.org'
> ... everything is a lot crisper.
>
> --
> Lester Caine - G8HFL
> -
> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 31 October 2015 at 03:09, Lester Caine  wrote:
> new indistinguishable rendering primary routes and motorways

For my information, could you take the test on
http://enchroma.com/test/instructions/ and tell me what it says? It's
ok if you prefer to respond off-list.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Andy Townsend]

On 31/10/2015 02:09, Lester Caine wrote:

OK ... what do we need to do to get a working UK map again?


Simply put, if you're relying on a remote resource staying the same over 
time (perhaps you're selling services based on that resource and don't 
want the customer re-education cost of a future change) then you need to 
have control over that resource.  That's true if you're paying for it 
(you'd make sure that your contract with the provider and SLA covers 
you) and even more so if you're not.  The colour change was widely 
trailled months before it happened, and there was a list thread about 
the best way to retain the existing UK style back in August***.


The good news is that setting up a server of your own is pretty 
straightforward these days*.  If you follow the recipe at 
https://switch2osm.org/serving-tiles/manually-building-a-tile-server-14-04/ 
you will get a working tile server**.  If you stray from the path 
outlined there and, say, try a different server OS with different 
packages then success won't be guaranteed, but if you just want a 
working map server it's difficult to know why you'd want to start elsewhere.


OSMBright (which those switch2osm notes guide you through), OSM Carto as 
it is now and OSM Carto as of any preferred data in the last 18 months 
(and probably more) will work on such as tile server (I currently have 
them installed on a small VM at home).  I'm sure that the French style 
would work there too.


Cheers,

Andy (SomeoneElse)


*Quite a few people pitch up on IRC et al saying "I've installed a tile 
server, now what?" so I think the tile server part of the OSM ecosystem 
is definitely one of the better documented bits.


** I ran through it "soup to nuts" on a newly-installed small 14.04 VM 
the other day.  The only caveats I found were that it doesn't make it 
explicitly clear that you need to do a couple of things as root, the 
.pbf file that you choose to use will probably be different to a full 
planet, and the osm2pgsql command will vary based on local resources 
such as memory.  However, all of the error messages you'll get back 
(even from osm2pgsql) will make it clear what you need to do.


*** 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2015-August/017659.html



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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Ed Loach]

Lester wrote:

> Bing and Google are almost useless, and the new indistinguishable
> rendering primary routes and motorways on OSM once everything
> finally
> re-renders are going to be useless as well. 

As I just posted on talk, I was attached to the old colour scheme and didn't 
want it to change for change's sake, but now it has I can see it is visually 
much clearer than the old colour scheme and I have no problem distinguishing 
between primary routes, trunk routes and motorways. 

I was particularly concerned about tertiary going white, but even those are 
significantly different to residential and unclassified that they stand out 
enough for me to feel it is an improvement.

Ed


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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[SK53]

Christian's Carto-CSS stylesheets are on github here
https://github.com/cquest/osmfr-cartocss.

Jerry

On 31 October 2015 at 06:39, Marc Gemis  wrote:

> You could try to contact Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr
> He understands English.
>
> regards
>
> m
>
> On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 3:47 AM, Lester Caine  wrote:
>
>> On 31/10/15 02:21, Steve Doerr wrote:
>> > Lester,
>> >
>> > In the short term, would substituting http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/
>> > solve your rendering problems?
>>
>> Interesting thought ... that actually solves one of the todo items on my
>> own style sheet tweaks in that the French version actually shows the
>> county boundaries a lot clearer, but switching to a large view which has
>> French attributions and overlays may simply add to the confusion :(
>>
>> Having sold clients on the idea that we can show all the right parking
>> and access around their premises on a UK style map, many have been
>> helping by providing finer detail and corrections in their areas. I KNOW
>> the phone will be ringing Monday if not before. In many of their areas
>> Google and Bing are simply white blanks!
>>
>> OK ... where do I get a copy of the osmfr layer style sheet :) That is
>> rendering the area around here a lot nicer than the 'defa...@osm.org'
>> ... everything is a lot crisper.
>>
>> --
>> Lester Caine - G8HFL
>> -
>> Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
>> L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
>> EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
>> Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
>> Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Lester Caine]

On 31/10/15 07:39, Ed Loach wrote:
>> Bing and Google are almost useless, and the new indistinguishable
>> > rendering primary routes and motorways on OSM once everything
>> > finally
>> > re-renders are going to be useless as well. 
> As I just posted on talk, I was attached to the old colour scheme and didn't 
> want it to change for change's sake, but now it has I can see it is visually 
> much clearer than the old colour scheme and I have no problem distinguishing 
> between primary routes, trunk routes and motorways. 
> 
> I was particularly concerned about tertiary going white, but even those are 
> significantly different to residential and unclassified that they stand out 
> enough for me to feel it is an improvement.

I'll provide visual examples of the problems that the new colour scheme
creates in rural areas. It's the same with Bing and Google, but osm's
'old' style while not perfect did at least allow the tertiary roads
which around this neck of the woods provide the key fast routes to be
distinguished.

I worked through to 5:30am and got a replacement for the embed facility
working into the French tile server and I can replace that with my own
server once it's updating reliably. The French tiles have provided a
couple of bonuses so on my own roadmap are working in the right
direction. http://goodflexrubber.com/wiki/Home+Block+10 is 90% there

Not quite sure what Bing is up to.  get the idea of the spooky stile for
halloween but the purple colouring for roads?

Anyway ... got to get out to site to fix another bloody sick M$ machine :(

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
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L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Richard Fairhurst]

Lester Caine wrote:
> while switch2osm may well produce a working system for
> some ... I have to also support current paying traffic on the 
> hardware and that prevents running too many different 
> competing web services.

You can run a tileserver for the UK on a £10/month virtual machine. If your
paying traffic can't support £10/month across all your clients, and instead
you have to rely on a third-party server operated by a non-profit
organisation, then there's something wrong with your business model.

Richard





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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Lester Caine]

On 31/10/15 15:18, Richard Fairhurst wrote:
>> while switch2osm may well produce a working system for
>> > some ... I have to also support current paying traffic on the 
>> > hardware and that prevents running too many different 
>> > competing web services.
> You can run a tileserver for the UK on a £10/month virtual machine. If your
> paying traffic can't support £10/month across all your clients, and instead
> you have to rely on a third-party server operated by a non-profit
> organisation, then there's something wrong with your business model.

My current business model is to provide a UK based service which I can
share freely with others and provides both current and historic material
for the UK. What is preventing this happening is all the disjointed
elements that are being used currently between OSM, OHM and other services.

Up until now my time has been spent trying to make that come to fruition
while still trying to add raw data and updates and trying to ensure
current material is not simply dumped when new history is created. The
current changes to OSM has changed priorities so what I'm trying to
achieve HERE is some help to get the alternative service running ASAP
while in the meantime fire fighting once again the support system :(

No I don't have a bottomless pit of money to pay for services, so I have
to compensate by the best use of what resources are available, and I can
provide hardware and use my spare bandwidth to do that. I bought the
machine for this job some months back but as yet it is still only
partially working ... now if others are working to the same end can we
not pool that resource?

-- 
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L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Andy Allan]

On 31 October 2015 at 15:18, Richard Fairhurst  wrote:
> Lester Caine wrote:
>> while switch2osm may well produce a working system for
>> some ... I have to also support current paying traffic on the
>> hardware and that prevents running too many different
>> competing web services.
>
> You can run a tileserver for the UK on a £10/month virtual machine. If your
> paying traffic can't support £10/month across all your clients, and instead
> you have to rely on a third-party server operated by a non-profit
> organisation, then there's something wrong with your business model.

It's the constant moaning whenever something changes that annoys me
most. All the effort that volunteers put in to create and improve the
style, to run the servers, to write the blog posts and announcements
and all we get from Lester is moan moan moan. I've had enough, to be
frank.

Lester, we make the styles available, we make the software available,
we make instructions available and you've had plenty of warning that
things are changing (in fact, they are always changing, and this
always displeases you). If it's important to you to keep a particular
style that's understandable. Make your own maps, pay someone else to
make them, or find some other volunteers to piggyback off.

But please, keep these constant complaints to yourself.

Thanks,
Andy

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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/31/2015 08:10 PM, Andy Allan wrote:
> It's the constant moaning whenever something changes that annoys me
> most. All the effort that volunteers put in to create and improve the
> style, to run the servers, to write the blog posts and announcements
> and all we get from Lester is moan moan moan. I've had enough, to be
> frank.

I'd like to broaden this a bit - it's not only about map styles, and not
only about Lester's complaint.

OSM is a team effort and most of us are doing this in their spare time.
Progress and innovation happen more or less at the whim of individuals
who happen to have a little time and a good idea. And we *need* that to
happen; we need to evolve to keep up, to remain attractive, to remain
worthwhile.

We must not allow ourselves to feel like we are a commercial service
provider[*] - we don't offer guarantees or service level agreements or
backwards compatible APIs or anything like that.

We reserve the right to, among other things,

* change the map style and map availability at any time - for example,
while we're not currently planning to do that, years ago the OSMF board
contemplated a decision to only serve map tiles in the context of the
www.openstreetmap.org web site and not to third parties.

* change the API at any time - for example, we might do away with HTTP
Basic Authentication soon, or introduce different data types, or change
the methods in which data is uploaded. API 0.7 could become reality
before the decade is over ;)

* take tile server or API offline for maintenance at any time and for
any duration required

* shut down or modify existing ancillary services currently run on the
OSMF platform

We *must* reserve this right or else having to care for the user base
will ruin our capacity to innovate. It is hard enough coming up with API
0.7, but how much harder would it be if we had to make sure that nobody
has to change anything on their end once we switch!

To be clear, none of this would happen overnight and everything will be
discussed and announced well before, but nobody can expect us to reject
change just so that their business case continues to work.

If you are building something, anything, where you count on the OSM
servers being available in a certain form, think twice because we don't
promise anything.

You have been warned ;)

Bye
Frederik

[*] Even though our volunteer operations people seem to achieve a
service quality that many commercial providers would dream of...

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Lester Caine]

On 31/10/15 19:51, Frederik Ramm wrote:
>> It's the constant moaning whenever something changes that annoys me
>> > most. All the effort that volunteers put in to create and improve the
>> > style, to run the servers, to write the blog posts and announcements
>> > and all we get from Lester is moan moan moan. I've had enough, to be
>> > frank.
> I'd like to broaden this a bit - it's not only about map styles, and not
> only about Lester's complaint.

My only complaint is that many decisions are still unilateral rather
than considered. Personally I could be contributing a lot more to the
software if it was using main stream tools rather than some of the
exotic elements that seem to be the in thing because of someone's pet
interest. But that is a problem across a whole gamete of open source
projects these days. We are now stuck with some elements which are less
than ideal and have to now work around them, so perhaps it is time to
isolate the data even further from the graphical tools and make it
easier to use with all tools?

How much bigger would the programmer base have been if a different base
had been adopted at the start. It's problematic enough adding python,
perl and java to a base of C/C++, PHP, javascript, css and html without
adding Ruby into the mix, and the spiralling range of tools and
libraries 'improving' javascript, css and the essential responcive
browser interfaces is spreading everything thinner and thinner. I'm
looking at the OHM rendering problem, and Kartotherian is now being
pushed from that side and I can't see why we have to be using different
bases to do exactly the same job? Why can't we have a single base?

SO I repeat what I said earlier? Is there ANYBODY who has an interest in
creating a simple generic system for creating material across the whole
spread of data that we have to work with. Initially targeting the vast
range of UK current and historic data. A vector based rendering system
is probably the right way to go and the OSMAND rendering works well and
as far as I can tell ALLOWS a selectable rendering style? But that is
yet another tangent and ring fenced solution :(

-- 
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-
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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 10/31/2015 10:24 PM, Lester Caine wrote:
> My only complaint is that many decisions are still unilateral rather
> than considered. 

I'd say they are considered - but by those who do the work, not by the
general public who might also have an opinion. The amount of
consideration that has happend on this particular map style change is
already way more than one could reasonably expect from people working at
this in their spare time.

> Personally I could be contributing a lot more to the
> software if it was using main stream tools rather than some of the
> exotic elements that seem to be the in thing because of someone's pet
> interest. 

... says the person who was trying to replace our established
Apache-based tile serving with newfangled Nginx ;)

> How much bigger would the programmer base have been if a different base
> had been adopted at the start. It's problematic enough adding python,
> perl and java to a base of C/C++, PHP, javascript, css and html without
> adding Ruby into the mix,

I agree that if you want to understand, handle, and improve OSM across
the full toolchain, from editing to API to tile serving, you *do* have
to be proficient in a frightening amount of technologies. But in the
same way that you don't need a degree in engineering to drive a car, it
should be possible to set up a tile server even if you know neither
C/C++ nor Javascript or Ruby.

As for the remainder of your posting, about a "single base" and how all
this is somehow related to a few colours changing on the osm.org map, I
think you lost me there.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Lester Caine]

On 31/10/15 09:27, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
>> new indistinguishable rendering primary routes and motorways
> For my information, could you take the test on
> http://enchroma.com/test/instructions/ and tell me what it says? It's
> ok if you prefer to respond off-list.

I have Normal 'Color' Vision even though I do now ware glasses. But I
work with a number of clients who support visually impaired or people
with other disabilities and we do take a great deal of care to get
flexible control of both size and contrast of material being displayed.
My urgent problem is the one already described ... people with learning
difficulties come to rely on stability and when things change to can
cause panic attacks. YES I need to remove the problem by building my own
servers, but this needs to be a consistent national resource. The simple
addition of a 'classic' default which can be restored is often all that
is required, but when the whole system keeps changing apparently from
day to day it can be frightening to some people, or makes safe usage
difficult if as is the case with both windows and android, the sequence
of operations a visually impaired user is used to suddenly stops
working! They often can't 'see' the fix. That is one of the major brick
walls with M$ ramming W10 onto machines without our being able to stop
it and retain the original W7 classic desktop. Often *WE* have no
control over updates :(

Just something simple like the current mess with scroll bars on
applications where some have both up and down button at the bottom, or
the modern style of hiding the thing off the side, added to the
apparently totally random way some page up and down when clicked outside
the bar and others just jump to that location. All of this makes for a
totally confusing mess.

When the renderers finally catch up with all the tiles in the areas I
want to use as a demonstration of the problems the new style is creating
in several of the rural areas I support then I'll publish a proper
document, but while switch2osm may well produce a working system for
some ... I have to also support current paying traffic on the hardware
and that prevents running too many different competing web services.

The MAIN problem which both Bing and Google maaps hve always had and
which many routing services also mess up is that around here many of the
main roads are 'tertiary' but they are still 60MPH speed limit, and it
would probably actually be better to dodge the problem by re-clasifying
them as secondary which has actually be done - incorrectly in some
places! The whole UK system is essentially SIX levels with motorways,
primary trunk roads, main roads, secondary classified roads, secondary
unclassified roads and the whole residential and service layer. The B
roads need to be clearly separated from the rest of the lower level
structure, but so do the tertiary roads and these are now slowly
vanishing from the new rendering :(

I have now established where some routing problems arise, and this is
down to segments of a tertiary route being tagged as 'minor' which
certainly on OSMAND used to add a block to the use of that route. A
combination of fixing the tagging, and the better defaults in OSMAND
does seem to be improving the situation, but IDEALLY what one is using
on the sat nav in the car should match display wise what one has
reviewed on the desktop prior to planning the route ... so in addition
to stabilising the broadband service, the off-line services need to be
kept in sync, along with the editors ... and so it goes on :(

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Steve Doerr]

Lester,

In the short term, would substituting http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/ 
solve your rendering problems?


Steve

On 31/10/2015 02:09, Lester Caine wrote:

OK ... what do we need to do to get a working UK map again?

Bing and Google are almost useless, and the new indistinguishable
rendering primary routes and motorways on OSM once everything finally
re-renders are going to be useless as well. I've just spent another
couple of hours trying to remember where I got to with the machine I've
been trying to build here to provide just the UK and Ireland, but I'm
going to have to go back to first principals and ignore the Nginx layer
and go back to slow old Apache for the tile cache :(

I know why the current tile servers can't handle more than one style,
and in my book THAT was the first problem that needed fixing rather than
forcing a complete new style sheet with no option to retain the current
style in parallel. So what do we need to do to get a UK friendly service
working?

I would like to throw into the mix that it would make sense to me if a
complete new rendering service also handled historic mapping as well
which should be relatively easy to do if confined to just the UK, but I
think we may need to be open to rendering more than just the UK?

It's bad enough at the moment tying to cope with W10 being rammed into
my clients systems and breaking perfectly good operational hardware,
android apps changing various operating procedures in illogical ways,
and the various 'browser improvements' resulting in even more legacy
sites no longer working without also having to start reworking every map
used across my client base. OSM is the only source that has much of the
detail that I need to show, and retaining blue ad green road links is
essential in my book ... and one of the reasons I started even
developing with OSM.




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Re: [Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Lester Caine]

On 31/10/15 02:21, Steve Doerr wrote:
> Lester,
> 
> In the short term, would substituting http://tile.openstreetmap.fr/
> solve your rendering problems?

Interesting thought ... that actually solves one of the todo items on my
own style sheet tweaks in that the French version actually shows the
county boundaries a lot clearer, but switching to a large view which has
French attributions and overlays may simply add to the confusion :(

Having sold clients on the idea that we can show all the right parking
and access around their premises on a UK style map, many have been
helping by providing finer detail and corrections in their areas. I KNOW
the phone will be ringing Monday if not before. In many of their areas
Google and Bing are simply white blanks!

OK ... where do I get a copy of the osmfr layer style sheet :) That is
rendering the area around here a lot nicer than the 'defa...@osm.org'
... everything is a lot crisper.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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[Talk-GB] Restoring a usable map service!

[Lester Caine]

OK ... what do we need to do to get a working UK map again?

Bing and Google are almost useless, and the new indistinguishable
rendering primary routes and motorways on OSM once everything finally
re-renders are going to be useless as well. I've just spent another
couple of hours trying to remember where I got to with the machine I've
been trying to build here to provide just the UK and Ireland, but I'm
going to have to go back to first principals and ignore the Nginx layer
and go back to slow old Apache for the tile cache :(

I know why the current tile servers can't handle more than one style,
and in my book THAT was the first problem that needed fixing rather than
forcing a complete new style sheet with no option to retain the current
style in parallel. So what do we need to do to get a UK friendly service
working?

I would like to throw into the mix that it would make sense to me if a
complete new rendering service also handled historic mapping as well
which should be relatively easy to do if confined to just the UK, but I
think we may need to be open to rendering more than just the UK?

It's bad enough at the moment tying to cope with W10 being rammed into
my clients systems and breaking perfectly good operational hardware,
android apps changing various operating procedures in illogical ways,
and the various 'browser improvements' resulting in even more legacy
sites no longer working without also having to start reworking every map
used across my client base. OSM is the only source that has much of the
detail that I need to show, and retaining blue ad green road links is
essential in my book ... and one of the reasons I started even
developing with OSM.

-- 
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk

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