Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[David Woolley]

On 23/11/16 09:53, Warin wrote:

A 'mobile' business .. such as a mobile caterer or a mobile mechanic may
not be something that needs to present on the OSM map? I'd think someone
looking for a mobile service would want to contact them by phone .. and
be best served by using a phone search.


Google certainly ban them from their map, as "service area businesses 
without a storefront" 
, 
for the above reasons.  There are, of course, a lot of such businesses 
actually on Google, and probably even more on Bing, because businesses 
see these as advertising directories not as maps (you can find these on 
OSM as well, typically with a very long description in marketing-speak).


Google do allow them in their business directory services.


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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Jez Nicholson]

Here is an example that is more like the startup business that Warin
mentions

Chillie Sauce
112 Barnett Road
Brighton
BN1 7GH
Business type: Other catering premises
http://ratings.food.gov.uk/business/en-GB/904285/

https://goo.gl/maps/SMDjwS1efVL2

Regards,
 Jez

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 at 09:57 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In Australia business have to have a legal physical address with a plaque
> on the entry with their name.
> Start up businesses start out using their home address for costs .. plaque
> usually goes on the back door ... the local council has the area designated
> for residential use and may discourage business there so they are on iffy
> ground hence the back door plaque.
>
> If things go well then the may get a rent on another location for the
> 'active' part of the business ... but retain the home address as the
> registered part just incase they find the rent too much or need to move to
> another location. That can go on for some time. Hence the register may
> contain a 'residential' address for a business that is actually located
> else where. I think that maybe what is going on here. Cost associated with
> changing the address of the 'business' dissuade frequent changes -
> particularly on startups.
>
> A 'mobile' business .. such as a mobile caterer or a mobile mechanic may
> not be something that needs to present on the OSM map? I'd think someone
> looking for a mobile service would want to contact them by phone .. and be
> best served by using a phone search.
>
>
> On 23-Nov-16 08:34 PM, Jez Nicholson wrote:
>
> Here is an example:
>
> The wonderfully named "Here Today, Scone Tomorrow"
> http://ratings.food.gov.uk/business/en-GB/892292/ at 35 Sandgate Road,
> Brighton, BN1 6JP
>
> Business type: mobile caterer
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/dKVXCkPHRTo
>
> Perhaps they prepare the food at their home address? or this is their
> official business address?
>
> Regards,
>  Jez
>
> On Tue, 22 Nov 2016 at 23:56 Steve Doerr  wrote:
>
> There's a cupcake business locally which I suspect is a home business
> (as the streets in that area are only residential AFAIK). I haven't
> actually been there to check it out.
>
> Steve
>
> On 22/11/2016 15:54, Dave F wrote:
> > I think they're misusing 'private' where they mean 'personal'
> >
> > I've only come across instances of mobile retailers. Does anyone have
> > an example of a home business on the FHRS website?
> >
> > If there's only a partial address/postcode how are OSM contributors
> > adding them?
> > Are the co-ordinates provided?
> >
> > DaveF.
> >
> > On 22/11/2016 13:36, David Woolley wrote:
> >> On 22/11/16 12:58, Dave F wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 21/11/2016 20:23, SK53 wrote:
>  A bit late, but according to the FHRS manual businesses run from
>  private addresses should be obscured (usually at the postcode district
>  level).
> >>>
> >>> Do you have a link?
> >>
> >> <
> https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/multimedia/pdfs/enforcement/fhrs-it-system-guidance.pdf
> >
> >> bottom of page 10.
> >>
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Jez Nicholson]

Here is an example:

The wonderfully named "Here Today, Scone Tomorrow"
http://ratings.food.gov.uk/business/en-GB/892292/ at 35 Sandgate Road,
Brighton, BN1 6JP

Business type: mobile caterer

https://goo.gl/maps/dKVXCkPHRTo

Perhaps they prepare the food at their home address? or this is their
official business address?

Regards,
 Jez

On Tue, 22 Nov 2016 at 23:56 Steve Doerr  wrote:

> There's a cupcake business locally which I suspect is a home business
> (as the streets in that area are only residential AFAIK). I haven't
> actually been there to check it out.
>
> Steve
>
> On 22/11/2016 15:54, Dave F wrote:
> > I think they're misusing 'private' where they mean 'personal'
> >
> > I've only come across instances of mobile retailers. Does anyone have
> > an example of a home business on the FHRS website?
> >
> > If there's only a partial address/postcode how are OSM contributors
> > adding them?
> > Are the co-ordinates provided?
> >
> > DaveF.
> >
> > On 22/11/2016 13:36, David Woolley wrote:
> >> On 22/11/16 12:58, Dave F wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 21/11/2016 20:23, SK53 wrote:
>  A bit late, but according to the FHRS manual businesses run from
>  private addresses should be obscured (usually at the postcode district
>  level).
> >>>
> >>> Do you have a link?
> >>
> >> <
> https://www.food.gov.uk/sites/default/files/multimedia/pdfs/enforcement/fhrs-it-system-guidance.pdf
> >
> >> bottom of page 10.
> >>
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Steve Doerr]

There's a cupcake business locally which I suspect is a home business 
(as the streets in that area are only residential AFAIK). I haven't 
actually been there to check it out.


Steve

On 22/11/2016 15:54, Dave F wrote:

I think they're misusing 'private' where they mean 'personal'

I've only come across instances of mobile retailers. Does anyone have 
an example of a home business on the FHRS website?


If there's only a partial address/postcode how are OSM contributors 
adding them?

Are the co-ordinates provided?

DaveF.

On 22/11/2016 13:36, David Woolley wrote:

On 22/11/16 12:58, Dave F wrote:


On 21/11/2016 20:23, SK53 wrote:

A bit late, but according to the FHRS manual businesses run from
private addresses should be obscured (usually at the postcode district
level).


Do you have a link?


 
bottom of page 10.


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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Steve Doerr]

On 22/11/2016 15:22, Dave F wrote:

Are you now suggesting the electoral roll should be hidden? Please 
don't assume duplicating freely available data in OSM makes it 
'personal' or somehow tainted.




It is possible to be 'ex-directory' in relation to the electoral register.

--
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Dave F]

I think they're misusing 'private' where they mean 'personal'

I've only come across instances of mobile retailers. Does anyone have an 
example of a home business on the FHRS website?


If there's only a partial address/postcode how are OSM contributors 
adding them?

Are the co-ordinates provided?

DaveF.

On 22/11/2016 13:36, David Woolley wrote:

On 22/11/16 12:58, Dave F wrote:


On 21/11/2016 20:23, SK53 wrote:

A bit late, but according to the FHRS manual businesses run from
private addresses should be obscured (usually at the postcode district
level).


Do you have a link?


 
bottom of page 10.


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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Dave F]

On 22/11/2016 13:41, David Woolley wrote:

On 22/11/16 12:45, Dave F wrote:


Please clarify exactly what data you believe to be personal? As it
contains no data on "identifiable living people", could you provide
evidence that it falls under the DPA?


Occupation.


There's no correlation to an individual



(Real name and address can be obtained by anyone from the edited 
electoral register and I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to get them 
from the full one.)

That can be done without the FHRS:ID.



Proprietor's home address.


Leaving the FHRS:ID out of OSM does not prevent the information being 
freely available (as you clearly pointed out)


Are you now suggesting the electoral roll should be hidden? Please don't 
assume duplicating freely available data in OSM makes it 'personal' or 
somehow tainted.


DaveF.

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[David Woolley]

On 22/11/16 12:45, Dave F wrote:


Please clarify exactly what data you believe to be personal? As it
contains no data on "identifiable living people", could you provide
evidence that it falls under the DPA?


Occupation.

(Real name and address can be obtained by anyone from the edited 
electoral register and I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to get them 
from the full one.)


Proprietor's home address.

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[David Woolley]

On 22/11/16 12:58, Dave F wrote:


On 21/11/2016 20:23, SK53 wrote:

A bit late, but according to the FHRS manual businesses run from
private addresses should be obscured (usually at the postcode district
level).


Do you have a link?


 
bottom of page 10.


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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Dave F]

On 21/11/2016 20:23, SK53 wrote:
A bit late, but according to the FHRS manual businesses run from 
private addresses should be obscured (usually at the postcode district 
level).


Do you have a link?


Not all authorities follow these rules; I have in the past had to 
point out to one authority that showing the private addresses of 
childminders raises safeguarding issues.


Hmm... The LAs shouldn't be assessing them at all:
"Childminders and businesses that offer caring services at home are not 
given ratings."


DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Dave F]

On 21/11/2016 13:38, Harry Wood wrote:

"Apart from size, I fail to see the difference"
Well the difference is whether you can go there and see the business.
The effect of this verifiability rule might be a size thing, which might mean 
that the cottage industry baking cupcakes doesn't get added but...


No. Irrelevant of size, If it's there, it's there.


More importantly from a process point of view this ultimately makes the 
difference between copying a database versus using a database as a check-list 
for surveying the existence of things.

Worth clarifying which of the two we think we're doing.

Both. They are not mutually exclusive.


  If we're going to add in things which we can't see when we go there, then we 
are just copying a database in.


Like postcodes?

DaveF.

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Dave F]

On 21/11/2016 13:18, David Woolley wrote:

On 21/11/16 12:58, Dave F wrote:

The FHRS database listing a business at a domestic address is
verification IMO.


It's also personal data.  I actually thought that FHRS itself 
suppressed some of this, but if you include it, it becomes subject to 
the Data Protection Act, which put legal constraints on the owners of 
OSM to manage it properly.


Please clarify exactly what data you believe to be personal? As it 
contains no data on "identifiable living people", could you provide 
evidence that it falls under the DPA?




Whilst a lot of home office businesses want to be on OSM, because it 
is a way of advertising, I think some of the FHRS registrations would 
not want that sort of publicity.


So you're suggesting the FSA should take down it own website which 
geo-locates all FHRS entries?


DaveF

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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[SK53]

A bit late, but according to the FHRS manual businesses run from private
addresses should be obscured (usually at the postcode district level).

Not all authorities follow these rules; I have in the past had to point out
to one authority that showing the private addresses of childminders raises
safeguarding issues. It may be worthwhile raising the issue with the
relevant local authority.

Jerry



On 19 November 2016 at 17:48, Andrew Hain 
wrote:

> Some FHRS entries refer to people’s names, or to business names, with the
> address of a private house. These may be people who cook from home or
> itinerantly. Is it however appropriate for OSM to map these addresses as
> anything more than houses, for example by adding fhrs:id or the name in the
> FHRS data set?
>
>
> --
>
> Andrew
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Brian Prangle]

Nicely put! I agree that we're should be using a database as a check-list
for surveying the existence of things.

Brian

On 21 November 2016 at 13:38, Harry Wood <m...@harrywood.co.uk> wrote:

> "Apart from size, I fail to see the difference"
> Well the difference is whether you can go there and see the business.
> The effect of this verifiability rule might be a size thing, which might
> mean that the cottage industry baking cupcakes doesn't get added but...
>
> More importantly from a process point of view this ultimately makes the
> difference between copying a database versus using a database as a
> check-list for surveying the existence of things.
>
> Worth clarifying which of the two we think we're doing. If we're going to
> add in things which we can't see when we go there, then we are just copying
> a database in.
>
> Harry
> 
> From: Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com>
> To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org
> Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016, 12:58
> Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home
>
>
>
> OSM became a company list as soon as the third business was added. Lists
> of things is what the database is all about, it's just that the most common
> way of representing them is geographically spaced out on a map, instead of
> an Excel spreadsheet.
>
> Apart from size, I fail to see the difference between a cottage
>industry baking cupcakes in the kitchen & Mr Kipling churning
>out battenbergs by the mile in huge factories. The FHRS database
>listing a business at a domestic address is verification IMO.
>
> Some see FHRS as a means to an end, by adding address data, which is
>fine, but I see it as an end in itself, referencing a well
>maintained external database providing information that's too
>ephemeral for OSM.
>
> Dave F.
>
>
> On 19/11/2016 16:48, Andrew Hain wrote:
>
> Some FHRS entries refer to people’s names, or to business names, with the
> address of a private house. These may be people who cook from home or
> itinerantly. Is it however appropriate for OSM to map these addresses as
> anything more than houses, for example by adding fhrs:id or the name in the
> FHRS data set?
>
> --
> Andrew
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Harry Wood]

"Apart from size, I fail to see the difference"
Well the difference is whether you can go there and see the business.
The effect of this verifiability rule might be a size thing, which might mean 
that the cottage industry baking cupcakes doesn't get added but...

More importantly from a process point of view this ultimately makes the 
difference between copying a database versus using a database as a check-list 
for surveying the existence of things.

Worth clarifying which of the two we think we're doing. If we're going to add 
in things which we can't see when we go there, then we are just copying a 
database in.

Harry

From: Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com>
To: talk-gb@openstreetmap.org 
Sent: Monday, 21 November 2016, 12:58
Subject: Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home



OSM became a company list as soon as the third business was added. Lists of 
things is what the database is all about, it's just that the most common way of 
representing them is geographically spaced out on a map, instead of an Excel 
spreadsheet.

Apart from size, I fail to see the difference between a cottage
   industry baking cupcakes in the kitchen & Mr Kipling churning
   out battenbergs by the mile in huge factories. The FHRS database
   listing a business at a domestic address is verification IMO.

Some see FHRS as a means to an end, by adding address data, which is
   fine, but I see it as an end in itself, referencing a well
   maintained external database providing information that's too
   ephemeral for OSM.

Dave F.


On 19/11/2016 16:48, Andrew Hain wrote:

Some FHRS entries refer to people’s names, or to business names, with the 
address of a private house. These may be people who cook from home or 
itinerantly. Is it however appropriate for OSM to map these addresses as 
anything more than houses, for example by adding fhrs:id or the name in the 
FHRS data set?

--
Andrew



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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[David Woolley]

On 21/11/16 12:58, Dave F wrote:

The FHRS database listing a business at a domestic address is
verification IMO.


It's also personal data.  I actually thought that FHRS itself suppressed 
some of this, but if you include it, it becomes subject to the Data 
Protection Act, which put legal constraints on the owners of OSM to 
manage it properly.


Whilst a lot of home office businesses want to be on OSM, because it is 
a way of advertising, I think some of the FHRS registrations would not 
want that sort of publicity.


Incidentally, Google has the concept of a service area business with no 
public access, so if a plumber tries to register their house, and they 
are caught out, they will be removed, because Google take the position 
that people will not actually visit the business at that location.


(Although I've no reason to believe that the data in question has a 
compatible licence, my council released a list of HMO addresses under 
FoI,  but withheld the owners' names under DPA.)


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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Dave F]

OSM became a company list as soon as the third business was added. Lists 
of things is what the database is all about, it's just that the most 
common way of representing them is geographically spaced out on a map, 
instead of an Excel spreadsheet.


Apart from size, I fail to see the difference between a cottage industry 
baking cupcakes in the kitchen & Mr Kipling churning out battenbergs by 
the mile in huge factories. The FHRS database listing a business at a 
domestic address is verification IMO.


Some see FHRS as a means to an end, by adding address data, which is 
fine, but I see it as an end in itself, referencing a well maintained 
external database providing information that's too ephemeral for OSM.


Dave F.

On 19/11/2016 16:48, Andrew Hain wrote:


Some FHRS entries refer to people’s names, or to business names, with 
the address of a private house. These may be people who cook from home 
or itinerantly. Is it however appropriate for OSM to map these 
addresses as anything more than houses, for example by adding fhrs:id 
or the name in the FHRS data set?



--

Andrew



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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Jez Nicholson]

You beat me to it. I was going to raise this. IMHO we should not add
private home businesses. It just won't be possible to give 100% coverage of
fhrs ids

On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 18:17 Ian Caldwell, 
wrote:

> One I noticed was the local country market (country-markets.co.uk), the
> FHRs address was, I assume, the home of the ore fhrs:id. ganise and was not
> where the market takes place. It takes place in a local hall. I was
> planning not to map the fhrs:id.
>
>
> Ian
>
> On 19 November 2016 at 16:48, Andrew Hain 
> wrote:
>
> Some FHRS entries refer to people’s names, or to business names, with the
> address of a private house. These may be people who cook from home or
> itinerantly. Is it however appropriate for OSM to map these addresses as
> anything more than houses, for example by adding fhrs:id or the name in the
> FHRS data set?
>
>
> --
>
> Andrew
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Ian Caldwell]

One I noticed was the local country market (country-markets.co.uk), the
FHRs address was, I assume, the home of the ore fhrs:id. ganise and was not
where the market takes place. It takes place in a local hall. I was
planning not to map the fhrs:id.


Ian

On 19 November 2016 at 16:48, Andrew Hain 
wrote:

> Some FHRS entries refer to people’s names, or to business names, with the
> address of a private house. These may be people who cook from home or
> itinerantly. Is it however appropriate for OSM to map these addresses as
> anything more than houses, for example by adding fhrs:id or the name in the
> FHRS data set?
>
>
> --
>
> Andrew
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Re: [Talk-GB] FHRS and businesses run from home

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat Nov 19 16:48:23 2016 GMT, Andrew Hain wrote:
> Some FHRS entries refer to people's names, or to business names, with the 
> address of a private house. These may be people who cook from home or 
> itinerantly. Is it however appropriate for OSM to map these addresses as 
> anything more than houses, for example by adding fhrs:id or the name in the 
> FHRS data set?
> 
I would say no, unless a business is verifiable i.e. has external signage then 
it has no place in OSM. We are not a business directory.

Phil (trigpoint)
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