Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 30/04/15 22:49, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk
mailto:les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
tag - disposal_point
Values
pump_out:grey (No sewage)
pump_out:black(Contains Sewage)
pump_out:bilge(May contain oil)
pump_out:restricted (note advise restrictions)
dump:black(may have restrictions?)
chemical:contained(cartridge style disposal)
chemical:clean_down('wet' disposal with clean down facility)
chemical:gel_only (may be other restrictions depending on country?)
Access
clients_only (marina or campsite or leisure facility clients)
public_free (council provided facility?)
public_fee:rates (see debate in Oz about lack of public
facilities even if they paid for access)
LOCATION should show if it's private access to boats or other vehicles
Payment methods or private access also expand the data.
Ok, so if understand, in that proposal a UK canal waterway=elsan_point
might be re-tagged like:
/disposal_point=yes/
/chemical:contained=yes
chemical:clean_down=yes
/
/chemical:gel_only=no
/
/chemical:restrictions=uses a septic field, and only biodegradable
tank chemicals are allowed.//
/
/access=/public_fee:rates
/boat=yes/
/motor-home=no/
NO ...
amenity=marina
disposal_point=chemical:clean_down
access=clients_only
I see no reason for boat or motor-home ... that is determined by the
presence or absence of camping grounds on the marina. If the marina is a
day boat facility it may well have caravan and RV pitches for those who
want to stay overnight and having to add duplicate tags is pointless? It
is the ACCESS tags which determine who can access the facilities, And if
there is no publicly accessible route to the facility anyway ...
Perhaps next to a:
/water_point=yes/
/access=public_free/
Access to that may well be different to the disposal facilities!
Emergency access to drinking water should be universal.
The tags boat=yes and motorhome=no are not universally processed by
rendering. Thus most
of the time the feature will show up undifferentiated.
I see no value to those tags at all ...
OpenSeaMap has chosen to use it's own tags in part to avoid motorhome
features showing up
on Mariner's map.
If they don't want to show publicly accessible facilities simply because
they are not 'boat users only' then that is up to them. It just seems
wrong especially when one starts looking at the sort of combine leisure
facilities that are being developed in many countries. There are some
interesting comments on the sanidumps sites about access to
'government/council' provided facilities being restricted where they
should be universally accessible be that from land or water.
If your map only shows half of the facilities you can ACTUALLY use then
I think I would be using a different map?
--
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
You can see the issue of how to tag this has come up several times: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sanitary_Dump_Station#See_Also With no consensus tagging diverged many ways. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
tag - disposal_point
Values
pump_out:grey (No sewage)
pump_out:black(Contains Sewage)
pump_out:bilge(May contain oil)
pump_out:restricted (note advise restrictions)
dump:black(may have restrictions?)
chemical:contained(cartridge style disposal)
chemical:clean_down('wet' disposal with clean down facility)
chemical:gel_only (may be other restrictions depending on country?)
Access
clients_only (marina or campsite or leisure facility clients)
public_free (council provided facility?)
public_fee:rates (see debate in Oz about lack of public
facilities even if they paid for access)
LOCATION should show if it's private access to boats or other vehicles
Payment methods or private access also expand the data.
Ok, so if understand, in that proposal a UK canal waterway=elsan_point
might be re-tagged like:
*disposal_point=yes*
*chemical:contained=yeschemical:clean_down=yes*
*chemical:gel_only=no*
*chemical:restrictions=uses a septic field, and only biodegradable tank
chemicals are allowed.*
*access=*public_fee:rates
*boat=yes*
*motorhome=no*
Perhaps next to a:
*water_point=yes*
*access=public_free*
*boat=yes*
*motorhome=no*
Where the boat=yes motorhome=no tag could exist on an enclosing way such as
a Marina.
---
I see the issue as centered on complexity, mapper behavior, and
rendering/searching behavior.
The system depends on two types of access : legal permission and physical
access. A marine
site may only be accessible to boat, or free and public but only welcome
marine users. That subtlety will likely
be lost in rendering or gps searching, leading people to an inappropriate
facility. The reality is that
top level tags are what controls most searching and rendering.
The tags boat=yes and motorhome=no are not universally processed by
rendering. Thus most
of the time the feature will show up undifferentiated.
*OpenSeaMap* has chosen to use it's own tags in part to avoid motorhome
features showing up
on Mariner's map. This allows ready and reliable creation of a mariner's
map (or in this case a UK
waterway map). The cost of a new high level tag seems small compared to
the benefits. The toilet
stations I map will be with something simpler.
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Thu, Apr 23, 2015 at 3:15 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=dump Has a lot lower usage than disposal, but *I* don't like the use of 'sanitary' ... that is more of a problem than the dump/disposal question! The tagging numbers are skewed because I tediously edited every odd variant I could find, mostly outside of Europe. Those included: name=RV Dump (with other tags) name=RV Dump Station (with no other tags) amenity=dump_station amenity=dump-station amenity=dumpstation amenity=dump amenity=RV Dump amenity=fuel;dump station;convenience highway=service + service=dumpstation shop=fuel;dump station;convenience shop=fuel;services=dump station;mini-mart;propane leisure=caravan_site + note=Motorhome dump station recycling=dump-station recycling=waste_basket + note=RV Dump Station recycling=waste_basket + waste=excrement. amenity=waste_disposal + waste=excrement (which variously meant pump-out, dog_bin, and dump station). tourism=caravan_site + note=Dumping place tourism=information + description=RV dump man_made=wastewater_plant + tag=Motorhome dumping station amenity=dump (mostly refers to garbage dumps, but a few were RV holding tank emptying spots). The term toilets:disposal was something I coined a few years back for walk-up toilets.: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Sanitary_Dump_Station http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:amenity%3Dtoilets Some 15 odd uses of the term *elsan_point* are present: and none outside of the UK. -- Apparently some people care a lot what the name of the tag is. I am not among those people. I care that the feature has rational tagging, as to attract enough interested from the osm-carto maintainers to actually render it: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1466 This feature is glaringly missing from campground and canal maps rendered with OSM data. Monolithic tagging matching the desire of richardwest would be fine with me: *amenity=elsan_point* *amenity=pump-out* *amenity=rv_dump_station* *waterway=elsan_point* *waterway=pump-out* Plus the same for toilets drinking_water, and fuel (in particular waterway=fuel). In that scheme, *waterway=elsan_point* + *amenity=elsan_point* is a sensible combination. Access tags are need to cover the case of facilities available only to overnight guests, since that case is so common. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
To summarize: Nobody likes to talk about waste, so euphemisms abound. Past tagging has been all over the map, and the same tags were used in Europe for dog_waste bins as well as motorhome dump points. - The basic styles of holding tank station seem to be: - elsan point (walk up dumping basin)(also called a CDP) - round drain (gravity drain hose : 3 in diameter in the USA) - pump-out (mechanical suction). Accepting: - Gray water (usually) - Bilge water (rarely) - Black water (usually) - Black water but not gray water (occasionally) Prohibiting: - Certain tank chemicals Offering at the same location: - Rinse water which may not be potable. - Drinking water (amenity=water_point). - Drinking water (amenity=drinking_water). - Walk up toilets. Access Rules: - From water or land, or in a few cases both. - Free, paid in advance, pay at the pump with coins or cards, or pay at the office. - Part of regional network or not (card key, payment card). - Accessible to overnight guests only, or to everyone. Position may be: - Located on a dock next to waterway=fuel (often) - Located on a separate dock. - Located on land, even it only serves marine users. - Located at each camping pitch. - Located at a central location, with varying degrees of accessibility by large boats or motorhomes (often). - Unknown (many RV and Marina sites list dump services on their websites, but the exact location does not appear on the brochure or map)(often). - Associated with a walk up toilet, or not. Rendered by: - Opensea map, and nothing else prominent. - Marine fuel, and amenity=water_point are very similar. - A chemical toilet is something completely different in the USA. Aporta potty is a walk up toilet in the USA. German facilities sport about a dozen designs of coin pay stations incorporating a CDP and round drain into one unit, and sometimes a pumpout, water point, and rinse hose for good measure. - So how do we get to the point where these facilities can be rendered, so a campground map looks proper when brought up on a smartphone? ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 23/04/15 21:53, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
So how do we get to the point where these facilities can be rendered, so
a campground map looks proper when brought up on a smartphone?
Well the starting point there is a proper database of information which
can be accessed via the phone. It would have a lot more information than
I would anticipate adding to the tagging on OSM! But that is a different
problem.
I could make an argument for this being part of tag:waste_disposal as
that is an integral part of the clear out of both boat and RV/van but I
think that this is better, and might become a base for solid
waste/recycling at a later date. The access to both would probably be
identical
tag - disposal_point
Values
pump_out:grey (No sewage)
pump_out:black(Contains Sewage)
pump_out:bilge(May contain oil)
pump_out:restricted (note advise restrictions)
dump:black(may have restrictions?)
chemical:contained(cartridge style disposal)
chemical:clean_down('wet' disposal with clean down facility)
chemical:gel_only (may be other restrictions depending on country?)
Access
clients_only (marina or campsite or leisure facility clients)
public_free (council provided facility?)
public_fee:rates (see debate in Oz about lack of public
facilities even if they paid for access)
LOCATION should show if it's private access to boats or other vehicles
Payment methods or private access also expand the data.
Location is dependent on how one is mapping. A CDP may be inside the
toilet and shower block which is the case in good UK sites, in it's own
room normally, so may be tagged on the building. Some RV/caravan sites
may have dump points adjacent to a pitch, which will also provide mains
electric, TV, broadband, and water hookup. Adding icons for all of those
is impractical, which is why I say the smartphone would get that
information from the pitch booking facility, but communal fill up points
would be tagged. However none of that is part of the disposal icon?
amenity=drinking_water - lacks an indication if it can be used
for fillup
amenity=water_point - lacks the 'potable' tagging
waterway=water_point- HAS been dropped in favour of the amenity
entry so why should disposal be different?
It is interesting that
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Pumpout was
rejected because it was 'only for boats' or very strangely 'recycling'.
I suppose we could hook the black waste direct into the bio-digester ;)
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 23/04/15 17:53, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Some 15 odd uses of the term *elsan_point* are present: and none outside of the UK. chemical toilet waste disposal unit is the more normal UK usage, along with grey and black waste water disposal, be that marine or land. Dump stations would seem to be American, although the Ozies seem to switch between the two. Dump station DOES seem to be specifically for hooking up RV and other vehicle pump out hoses and NOT for the safe disposal of chemical toilet waste. The two are rather different facilities! As I said ... if a point is still marked on the ground as an 'Elsan Point' then I would expect to maintain that name, but I'm not happy with the way a generic alternative is being developed. I don't have time to monitor the 'tagging' list ... I'll just carry on following local practice and sanitary_dump_station does not fit the bill, but I'm not sure just what is a suitable alternative to correctly tag the facilities I've got survey notes on for our local caravan sites ... what would have been legal as an elsan_point in the past would probably be shut down by the local council today anyway! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 22/04/15 23:17, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Note a number of people don't like the word disposal, and persist in tagging toilets:type instead, with the same data. https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=dump Has a lot lower usage than disposal, but *I* don't like the use of 'sanitary' ... that is more of a problem than the dump/disposal question! Use as a value rather than a key is more of a problem. ACCESS to the facility is a secondary matter. And I can give you examples where a disposal point will serve both boat and caravan traffic. The facility is a disposal point, rather than a 'waterway disposal point' and and I would be happy with the current few 'elsan' values in tags if that is how they are designated on the ground, with a separate generic amenity tag. This is perhaps where a waterways map would only support waterway activities, while a general map would link into the adjacent usage. What is needed however is consistency to using 'amenity' or some other key, or defining a key on it's own which is where the toilets:disposal is the most popular usage. In waterway terms, disposal of grey_water may well be separate to disposal of chemical toilet waste, so waste_disposal with the correct values may be a more generic solution to the problem. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 3:39 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Bryce Nesbitt wrote: What can we assume the UK tag waterway=elsan_point means? One or more of: 1) Walk up toilet 2) Cassette dump for boats 3) Cassette dump for motorhomes 4) Pump out Very firmly and unambiguously 2. I propose making the assumption the present elsan_point tag means* #3*, Could I make the evidently-not-bleeding-obvious-enough observation that the waterway= bit is quite a good hint that it's not meant for motorhomes. Yes, I think waterway is an excellent hint. Thus: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waterway%3Dsanitary_dump_station *waterway=elsan_point *would become *waterway=sanitary_dump_station*, nothing more. Motorhomes need not apply. --- Note this sanitary_dump_station scheme replaced over a dozen other tagging styles worldwide. It was a real mess: fragmented and tagged for the rendering such as to be absolutely unprocessable in any rational way. There were advocates for using UK term Elsan for the cleanup. Others objected to the use of a trade name. Thus *sanitary_dump_station* as an attempt at a generic term with a good chance of understanding when translated into multiple languages, and a good match to the customary terms used locally. The scheme's wiki page is now in French, German, English and Russian. Elsan point is not a term with recognition outside the UK. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
Is there any intrinsic difference between one for boats and one for motorhomes? If they are actually pretty much the same thing, maybe the difference would better be expressed by access=customers or purely geometric/geographic properties. On 2015-04-22 20:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 3:39 AM, Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net wrote: Bryce Nesbitt wrote: What can we assume the UK tag waterway=elsan_point means? One or more of: 1) Walk up toilet 2) Cassette dump for boats 3) Cassette dump for motorhomes 4) Pump out Very firmly and unambiguously 2. I propose making the assumption the present elsan_point tag means* #3*, Could I make the evidently-not-bleeding-obvious-enough observation that the waterway= bit is quite a good hint that it's not meant for motorhomes. Yes, I think waterway is an excellent hint. Thus: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waterway%3Dsanitary_dump_station [2] WATERWAY=ELSAN_POINT would become WATERWAY=SANITARY_DUMP_STATION, nothing more. Motorhomes need not apply. --- Note this sanitary_dump_station scheme replaced over a dozen other tagging styles worldwide. It was a real mess: fragmented and tagged for the rendering such as to be absolutely unprocessable in any rational way. There were advocates for using UK term Elsan for the cleanup. Others objected to the use of a trade name. Thus SANITARY_DUMP_STATION as an attempt at a generic term with a good chance of understanding when translated into multiple languages, and a good match to the customary terms used locally. The scheme's wiki page is now in French, German, English and Russian. Elsan point is not a term with recognition outside the UK. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb [1] Links: -- [1] https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/waterway%3Dsanitary_dump_station___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 22/04/15 19:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Others objected to the use of a trade name. Thus *sanitary_dump_station* as an attempt at a generic term with a good chance of understanding when translated into multiple languages, and a good match to the customary terms used locally. The scheme's wiki page is now in French, German, English and Russian. 'dump' just sounds wrong ... disposal would be better, but effluent_disposal_point is I think a little more generic. sanitary is more generally related to female related disposal. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
I too have problems with the name of this proposed tag, as follows:
1) It's not recognisably British English. This has been the default for tag
names since the inception of the project, mainly to avoid natural
complications when en-us and en-gb differ. As a native Brit I wouldn't have
a clue what this tag was supposed to mean on its own.
2) As Lester says, sanitary has the wrong connotations
3) Dump is colloquial en-gb for defecation.
4) Stations are places I catch trains.
Despite objections to a trade name, the current tag does reflect what these
are called by waterway users in the UK. Elsan has long entered standard
english as a synonym for chemical toilet. Personally I would have tried to
choose something a little more generic at the outset to help mappers
outwith the British Isles, but the current suggestion really doesnt help
either.
Ideally tags suggest what they refer to ('duck tagging') and do not require
navigating the wiki to find elaborate circumlocutions for something which
is really straightforward.
Jerry
On 22 April 2015 at 20:25, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote:
On 22/04/15 19:07, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
Others objected to the use of a trade name.
Thus *sanitary_dump_station* as an attempt at a generic term with a good
chance of understanding when translated into multiple languages, and a
good match to the customary terms used locally. The scheme's wiki page
is now in French, German, English and Russian.
'dump' just sounds wrong ... disposal would be better, but
effluent_disposal_point is I think a little more generic. sanitary is
more generally related to female related disposal.
--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
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Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
Here are some totally typical prior taggings of this feature (in land vehicle form): http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/3075600244 http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/369645049 ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Wed, Apr 22, 2015 at 12:00 PM, Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl wrote: Is there any intrinsic difference between one for boats and one for motorhomes? If they are actually pretty much the same thing, maybe the difference would better be expressed by *access=customers* or purely *geometric*/geographic properties Yes, there are intrinsic differences for marine and land facilities. And *access=customers* has a specific different definition here, as it is common for a pump-out or dump station to be restricted only to paying overnight guests at the facility (e.g. you can't even pay to use it unless you're staying overnight). Purely *geometric* properties don't work, as fuel station tagging shows. Proximity to the water's edge or a marina polygon does not itself disambiguate the feature type. The new tagging style covers a lot of bases: maybe not all, but many more than any of the dozen or so informal methods. The terms were also chosen carefully for worldwide use. Chemical Dump Point or CDP was found in the UK, and Dump station is well recognized in the USA Australia and NZ. Sanitary is a pretty icky word, but not nearly as rude as excrement, for the USA. Elsan was objected to as a brand name not a generic type. Of the 200 or so stations I found in searching note, description, and recycling tags, most used some form of the word dump for land station and pump for marine pumpouts. A small group of nodes are tagged Elsan along British canals. The term human effluent did not come up in that discussion, but would also be suitable (though effluent is likely never taught in the public schools in the USA) The choice of the exact wording of the tag is not as important as seeking common tagging for a common feature. Where would we be if every country used it's own word for highway. Marine and land facilities are different, but there's no on the ground difference between a comfort station and a toilet. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 22/04/15 20:38, SK53 wrote: Despite objections to a trade name, the current tag does reflect what these are called by waterway users in the UK. Elsan has long entered standard english as a synonym for chemical toilet. Personally I would have tried to choose something a little more generic at the outset to help mappers outwith the British Isles, but the current suggestion really doesnt help either. I knew I'd seen disposal used for chemical toilets ... https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=disposal#keys -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:51 PM, Malcolm Herring malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com wrote: On 21/04/2015 18:08, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Are what's presently tagged elsan_point /both/ walk up toilets /and/ CDP chemical holding tank emptying points? And do they welcome waste originating from Elsan-based motorhomes as well as canal boats? This is going to vary from point to point. On-the-ground surveys will be required. What can we assume the UK tag waterway=elsan_point means? One or more of: 1) Walk up toilet 2) Cassette dump for boats 3) Cassette dump for motorhomes 4) Pump out I propose making the assumption the present elsan_point tag means* #3*, then let local mappers adjust the tags as needed. The tag scheme can handle all the above: 1) Walk up toilet (amenity=toilet) 2) Cassette dump for boats (waterway=sanitary_dump_station) 3) Cassette dump for motorhomes (amenity=sanitary_dump_station) 4) Pump out (sanitary_dump_station:pump-out=yes) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 21/04/2015 18:08, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: Are what's presently tagged elsan_point /both/ walk up toilets /and/ CDP chemical holding tank emptying points? And do they welcome waste originating from Elsan-based motorhomes as well as canal boats? This is going to vary from point to point. On-the-ground surveys will be required. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 22/04/2015 08:04, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: What can we assume the UK tag waterway=elsan_point means? One or more of: 1) Walk up toilet 2) Cassette dump for boats 3) Cassette dump for motorhomes 4) Pump out The only safe assumption is (2) ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
Bryce Nesbitt wrote: What can we assume the UK tag waterway=elsan_point means? One or more of: 1) Walk up toilet 2) Cassette dump for boats 3) Cassette dump for motorhomes 4) Pump out Very firmly and unambiguously 2. I propose making the assumption the present elsan_point tag means* #3*, Could I make the evidently-not-bleeding-obvious-enough observation that the waterway= bit is quite a good hint that it's not meant for motorhomes. Although, http://changingears.com/images/terra-wind-3-330.jpg Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/elsan-points-tp5841270p5841442.html Sent from the Great Britain mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Tue, 21 Apr 2015, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: I've checked with Richard about this, to make sure the current tagging can cover the use case. Most canal-side/marina-side are accessed-protected using a 'BWB' key; but not all (Atherstone top lock comes to mind). Some points have not suitable for self-pumpout usage (I believe those that simply empty into a septic tank). I admit I hadn't really focused on adding these facilities these because of a long-term hope of obtaining the dataset from BWB/CRT---but if that happens it looks like it's going to require quite a bit of checking/correcting anyway (taking the example above, CRT have it on the wrong side of the canal): https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/directory/603/elsan-atherstone-lock-1-footbridge -Paul ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 21/04/2015 08:01, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: I'm seeking additional local input on this tagging. Elsan is simply a trade name for a chemical toilet (likewise Portapotti). So your cassette tagging covers these use cases. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On 21/04/2015 10:01, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: In the UK is the Elsan trade name used for both the mobile toilet and the fixed spot to empty it? It appears the intent of the elsan_point tag in the UK was the later ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tELRMqFZKM ). Yes. This dates from the days when Elsan had the market to themselves in UK, so elsan became the generic term for any chemical toilet (This also happened with vacuum cleaners Hoover - we still refer to any vacuum cleaner as ‘a hoover’). So the word elsan made its way onto the signage for chemical toilet emptying points. --- Note the comparable USA term porta-potty refers to a portable chemical toilet with no separate cassette (usually dragged by trailer to events, construction activity, or in camping areas without sewer access). Note the spelling: “Porta Potti” is a trade name of the Thetford Corporation and refers their chemical toilet products. On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:22 AM, Paul Sladen o...@paul.sladen.org mailto:o...@paul.sladen.org wrote: Most canal-side/marina-side are accessed-protected using a 'BWB' key; There also seems to be a card: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/navigating-the-waterways/services-for-boats/how-to-buy-your-pump-out-card I'm not sure which OSM mapped elsan_points are part of the CRT key system, but the network tag was designed for use by someone who does. Waterside facilities provided by CRT (previously known as British Waterways Board - BWB) are accessed by use of a key issued to all waterway license holders. Chemical toilet emptying points are usually within these facilities. Pump-out stations, on the other hand, are necessarily outside usage is controlled by pre-paid charge cards which activate the pump. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 12:36 AM, Malcolm Herring malcolm.herr...@btinternet.com wrote: On 21/04/2015 08:01, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: I'm seeking additional local input on this tagging. Elsan is simply a trade name for a chemical toilet (likewise Portapotti). So your cassette tagging covers these use cases. In the UK is the Elsan trade name used for both the mobile toilet and the fixed spot to empty it? It appears the intent of the elsan_point tag in the UK was the later ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tELRMqFZKM ). --- Note the comparable USA term porta-potty refers to a portable chemical toilet with no separate cassette (usually dragged by trailer to events, construction activity, or in camping areas without sewer access). On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 1:22 AM, Paul Sladen o...@paul.sladen.org wrote: Most canal-side/marina-side are accessed-protected using a 'BWB' key; There also seems to be a card: https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/boating/navigating-the-waterways/services-for-boats/how-to-buy-your-pump-out-card I'm not sure which OSM mapped elsan_points are part of the CRT key system, but the network tag was designed for use by someone who does. ___ Talk-GB mailing list Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
Re: [Talk-GB] elsan_points
Malcome Herring wrote:
Waterside facilities provided by CRT (previously known as British
Waterways Board - BWB) are accessed by use of a key issued to all waterway
license holders. Chemical toilet emptying points are usually within these
facilities. Pump-out stations, on the other hand, are necessarily outside
usage is controlled by pre-paid charge cards which activate the pump.
Are what's presently tagged elsan_point *both* walk up toilets *and* CDP
chemical holding tank emptying points?
And do they welcome waste originating from Elsan-based motorhomes as well
as canal boats?
In tagging form does this represent a typical station?
amenity=toilets
network=CRT
access=key
toilets:disposal={flush/chemical/pitlatrine}
+
waterway=sanitary_dump_station
sanitary_dump_station:basin=yes
network=CRT
access=key
Also note that based on feedback from a German tagger, the cassette tag
name changed to basin.
Marine pumpouts of course are separate:
waterway=sanitary_dump_station
payment:crt_prepaid:yes
payment:cash=no
sanitary_dump_station:pump-out=yes
sanitary_dump_station:rinse_water=yes
seamark:small_craft_facility:category = water;pump-out
note=Self service prohibited, see Marina attendant
Note that *porta-potty *is also a trade name, which has also become a
generic like Hoover, Xerox and Crescent Wrench. In the USA it refers only
to the walk up toilets.
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