Re: [OSM-talk-ie] religion=* and denomination=*

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

Oct 30, 2020, 14:51 by colmmoor...@hotmail.com:

> Hi,
>
> Apologies to the list and Mateusz for the confusion. :) Also apologies if I 
> step on religious toes.
>
>> From: Mateusz Konieczny 
>> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] religion=* and denomination=*
>>
>> Disclaimer: I never visited Ireland
>>
>> 27 paź 2020, 14:41 od colmmoor...@hotmail.com:
>>
>> > 3. Holy wells, mass rocks and the like. These are predominantly Roman 
>> > Catholic, but possibly with pagan origins.
>>
>> Are they still used by pagans/new age people? For OSM purposes current usage 
>> matters, not origins.
>>
>
> I concur that current usage matters. I suppose I'm wondering what the other 
> tags should be. The below seem inadequate, not least that 
> amenity=place_of_worship + religion=christian is interpreted as a church, not 
> an open-air location like a Mass Rock (a location where Roman Catholic mass 
> was said when Roman Catholicism was suppressed).
>
amenity=place_of_worship + religion=christian would be perfectly fine tagging 
if that is a place
where masses are still conducted.

If it is not such a place - how it is used? Very rare (yearly?) masses? 
Occasional worship
(acting as a historic=wayside_shrine)?
Some memorial plaque/tourism information board/tourism attraction?

> name=Holy Well
> natural=spring
> religion=christian
> denomination=roman_catholic
>
Is it a prayer location? Former prayer location? Tourism attraction? Pilgrimage 
target?

> name=Mass Rock
> amenity=place_of_worship
> religion=christian
> denomination=roman_catholic
>
Maybe disused:amenity=place_of_worship?

If it is an actual rock then tagging rock itself also would be a good idea
(see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rock  )

>> > 8. There are religion=no, religion=none and denomination=none tags. Should 
>> > these tags be rationalised or otherwise tidied up?
>>
>> How this tags are used?
>>
>
> Mostly for schools and cemeteries. In some cases, I suspect their use hasn't 
> considered all nuances, e.g. some state-owned schools also have religious 
> patrons or representation on the school board.
>
I would say that just religious patron would not make school religious, in the 
same way as
it would not make sense to add religion=* to Saint Barbara street, where only 
name is
of religious origin.
(though as it turns out many schools in Ireland are actually religious).

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] religion=* and denomination=*

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

I am really sorry for offtopic and quoting offlist message. Not sure what 
happened,
I just used standard reply.

Oct 28, 2020, 19:54 by talk-ie@openstreetmap.org:
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] religion=* and denomination=*

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

Huh, I though that secularization/atheisation of Ireland was quite 
far reaching and nearly complete.

(good thing that I included that diclaimer)

"crucifixes in most classrooms" applies also to Poland, but
"school boards pray at the start of board meetings" would be likely
to be considered as ridiculous.

AFAIK "teachers need to be certified to teach religion" applies
only to teachers teaching religion here and
"Religious organisations own the vast majority of schools" does
not apply (mostly result of WW II damage and communist occupation).

Oct 28, 2020, 15:13 by colmmoor...@hotmail.com:

> Hi,
>
> This email is off-list. Thank you for the feedback - I'll wait for more 
> people to comment before I answer your questions..
>
> In the Republic of Ireland, religion is fairly all-pervasive in schools. 
> Religious organisations own the vast majority of schools, school boards pray 
> at the start of board meetings, there are crucifixes in most classrooms, 
> teachers need to be certified to teach religion or it is difficult to get a 
> job, there are no Sunday schools. Inter-Denominational and 
> Multi-Denominational schools only account for 5% of schools and 7% of 
> students. Non-Denominational schools are essentially non-existent. The 
> religious organisations subvert the Department of Education.
>
> Northern Ireland isn't much different.
>
> The below data is for primary schools in the Republic of Ireland.
>
> Colm
>
>  Mainstream Schools  %   Special Schools %   Total   %
> Catholic  2,760 88.9%   105 78.4%  
> 2,86588.4%
> Church Of Ireland1725.5%0.0%  
> 172   5.3%
> Inter Denominational17  0.5% 1  0.7%  
>18 0.6%
> Jewish1 0.0%0.0%   1  
>   0.0%
> Methodist 1 0.0%0.0%  
>  10.0%
> Multi Denominational 1364.4%  1914.2% 
> 155   4.8%
> Muslim2 0.1%0.0%   2  
>   0.1%
> Presbyterian16  0.5%0.0% 16   
>   0.5%
> Quaker1 0.0%0.0%   1  
>   0.0%
> Other/Unknown9  6.7%   90.3%
> Total 3,106     100.0%  134 100.0% 3,240  
>   100.0%
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 15:04:55 +0100 (CET)
> From: Mateusz Konieczny 
> Cc: "talk-ie@openstreetmap.org" 
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk-ie] religion=* and denomination=*
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
> Disclaimer: I never visited Ireland
>
> 27 paź 2020, 14:41 od colmmoor...@hotmail.com:
>
>> 3.  Holy wells, mass rocks and the like. These are predominantly Roman 
>> Catholic, but possibly with pagan origins.
>>
> Are they still used by pagans/new age people? For OSM purposes current usage 
> matters, not origins.
>
>> 4.  Some objects have dual tagging, e.g. religion=christian;pagan or 
>> denomination=protestant;roman_catholic Are people happy to have such tagging?
>>
> If say church is shared by Roman Catholic parish and Protestant congregation 
> and not
> used by other denominations then denomination=protestant;roman_catholic is 
> 100% fine.
>
>> 5.  Many religious-run schools do not have the religion or denomination 
>> tagged.
>>
> It is a bit tricky as at least some religious-run schools have absolutely no 
> trace of religion
> in running of school, there is simply a religious owner/operator.
>
> In such cases operator:type=religious would fit better than religion tag
>
>> 8.  There are religion=no, religion=none and denomination=none tags. Should 
>> these tags be rationalised or otherwise tidied up?
>>
> How this tags are used?
>
> denomination=none seems fine for say ecumenical chapel used by all kinds of 
> denomination
> of a given religion...
>
>> multifaith 47 <
>>
> This may be actually valid.
>
> --
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] religion=* and denomination=*

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

Disclaimer: I never visited Ireland

27 paź 2020, 14:41 od colmmoor...@hotmail.com:

> 3.  Holy wells, mass rocks and the like. These are predominantly Roman 
> Catholic, but possibly with pagan origins. 
>
Are they still used by pagans/new age people? For OSM purposes current usage 
matters, not origins.

> 4.  Some objects have dual tagging, e.g. religion=christian;pagan or 
> denomination=protestant;roman_catholic Are people happy to have such tagging?
>
If say church is shared by Roman Catholic parish and Protestant congregation 
and not
used by other denominations then denomination=protestant;roman_catholic is 100% 
fine.

>  5.  Many religious-run schools do not have the religion or denomination 
> tagged.
>
It is a bit tricky as at least some religious-run schools have absolutely no 
trace of religion
in running of school, there is simply a religious owner/operator.

In such cases operator:type=religious would fit better than religion tag

>  8.  There are religion=no, religion=none and denomination=none tags. Should 
> these tags be rationalised or otherwise tidied up?
>
How this tags are used?

denomination=none seems fine for say ecumenical chapel used by all kinds of 
denomination
of a given religion... 

> multifaith 47 <
>
This may be actually valid.

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Some of the 3300 parks in OSM Ireland are just patches of grass.

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

18 paź 2020, 15:25 od br...@hollinshead.net:

> I understood that adding to the amount of land area that was
> classified with a landuse category was a good addition to the map.
>  
>
Yes, and mapping leisure=park area is
enough to classify area as used as a park


> My
> research showed that we have some 3,300 patches of land mapped but excluded
> from the landuse tag.
>
OSM tagging is organically grown and
is not very systematic.

leisure=park also marks land use
> For private citizens or public officials seeking data from OSM for
> structured park areas (with planting /benches.sports/keep fit apparatus
> etc) it makes the parks easier to find if they are tagged as landuse=park
> as well as leisure=park
>
Maybe, but introducing duplicate tag to
small subset of parks is not helpful
and just increases confusion.


> how you tag these areas when mapping in your home country.
>
In Poland urban parks are marked as 
leisure=park
> I note you suggest removing the leisure=park tags. I feel it would be
> presumptive of me to consider that those who used the tag some 3,300 times
> to have been mistaken or ill-judged in what they did. without me knowing
> the local conditions.
>
Yes, it would require verification.
From your email I understood that
you verified some cases and found it to
be a bare grass area without park.
>
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2020 at 13:00, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie <
> talk-ie@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> Oct 18, 2020, 11:59 by br...@hollinshead.net:
>>
>> > As part of my researches into what features we have on OSM that might
>> > interest someone wishing to make use of outdoor facilities, I find on the
>> > Island of Ireland we have close to 3,300 parks to choose from, wow!
>> > (leisure=park). On closer inspection I find that many of these in South
>> > Dublin at least are green areas of grass in housing estates, maybe 4
>> houses
>> > long by 8 houses wide. I tend to tag those as per the presets with
>> > landuse=grass.
>> >
>> I would remove leisure=park from them. Note that some people added
>> fake parks to manipulate outcomes in Pokemon Go that is
>> using OSM data.
>>
>> >  Yesterday I ran overpass landuse=park and got nil response!
>> >
>> Good!
>>
>> > This morning I have added landuse=park to about 24 of the parks already
>> on
>> > OSM and listed as parks by DLR, South Dublin and Fingal.
>> >
>> What is the point of this duplicate of leisure=park?
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Some of the 3300 parks in OSM Ireland are just patches of grass.

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

Oct 18, 2020, 11:59 by br...@hollinshead.net:

> As part of my researches into what features we have on OSM that might
> interest someone wishing to make use of outdoor facilities, I find on the
> Island of Ireland we have close to 3,300 parks to choose from, wow!
> (leisure=park). On closer inspection I find that many of these in South
> Dublin at least are green areas of grass in housing estates, maybe 4 houses
> long by 8 houses wide. I tend to tag those as per the presets with
> landuse=grass.
>
I would remove leisure=park from them. Note that some people added
fake parks to manipulate outcomes in Pokemon Go that is
using OSM data. 

>  Yesterday I ran overpass landuse=park and got nil response!
>
Good!

> This morning I have added landuse=park to about 24 of the parks already on
> OSM and listed as parks by DLR, South Dublin and Fingal.
>
What is the point of this duplicate of leisure=park? 

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] some of my inconsistent tagging - cure sought

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

Sep 20, 2020, 11:20 by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Fri, 18 Sep 2020 at 21:06, Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie
>  wrote:
>
>>
>> For start note
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
>> - but fixing your own edits falls under one of exceptions
>>
>
> It says:
>
>  Acceptable usage
>
>  Correcting your own work. If you know that you made a systematic
>  mistake then you may correct this systematically using an automated
>  process. Do however be aware of the risk that your process changes
>  data beyond the scope you intended.
>
> For cases such as the one currently under discussion, "Correcting your
> own work" should be changed to, say, "Correcting your own work (or
> that of another individual, at their express request)".
>
Changed - see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct&diff=2036167&oldid=1870850

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] some of my inconsistent tagging - cure sought

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

For start note
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits_code_of_conduct
- but fixing your own edits falls under one of exceptions

Typical such edit would use Overpass Turbo 
( https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Overpass_turbo ) to
find elements for editing and exporting it to either JOSM or level0.

In JOSM one may use usual filter/search/mass edit tools.

In level0 one may copy text description to file and use regular 
search and replace and then copy back and save.

Note that in both cases one needs to follow rules for automated edits and be
careful.

Sep 18, 2020, 17:12 by br...@hollinshead.net:

> During the lockdown I added a lot of Roman Catholic and Church of Ireland
> Parishes to OSM.
> I carelessly described 686 of them as anglican=Church Of Ireland instead of
> anglican=Church of Ireland.
>
> You can see them in overpass using type=boundary and anglican="Church Of
> Ireland". Is there some way one of you can please easily alter these at one
> fell swoop?
>
> It would be great if you could afterwards then detail the how-to as I have
> some smaller groups to cure and others besides me might also like to learn
> this useful skill, but maybe perhaps others don't need it as much as I do!
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Tagging of LEAs that changed in 2019

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

Is it a former administrative boundary?

I would comply delete it if it no longer
administrative boundary.

11 Sep 2020, 13:27 by br...@hollinshead.net:

> Under Si 615 of 2018 many of the LEAs in Dublin were altered. After
> creating the new ones, I added historic=yes and end dates to the ones that
> were changed and left boundary=political as the category. see
> openstreetmap.org/relation/4655804.
> Please is this the preferred method at large, and if not what is? Perhaps I
> need to change the 24 I did this with.
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Estimate of number of building=* in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

May 15, 2020, 00:04 by davecor...@gmail.com:

> The fact that so many buildings are being mapped as building=yes when more
> accurate tagging is plainly obvious makes this an utterly frustrating
> project.
>
> Saying that others can come along after and correct it is a totally
> avoidable requirement by using more appropriate tagging in the first place.
> Its also unlike to ever get corrected as evidenced by the volume of data in
> Ireland that was created and never improved upon.
>
If there is not enough mappers then likely mapping more building as building=yes
is more efficient than using specific building value anyway.

And anyone may map whatever (s)he wants, it is perfectly fine to 
map roads without mapping buildings, map trees instead of mapping roads,
map buildings as building=yes, map bicycle parkings and map no shops at all...

Note also that for example StreetComplete allows newbies and beginners to
build on build on initial not finished data and for example specify 
more exact building types.

> The logical approach should be to map it as house/garage/shed etc and ONLY
> use building=yes if you cannot make an educated guess.
>
> Doing otherwise puts this data on the level of the tiger import.
>
No. TIGER import had plenty of outright invalid, incorrect and insane data.
This is merely missing not very important part of info.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:TIGER_fixup_example_before.jpg
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Braided-streets-example.jpg
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/TIGER_fixup

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Estimate of number of building=* in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

both building=residential and landuse=residential
are valid tagging

(though, if possible then building=house
or other more specific value is preferable)


May 14, 2020, 12:47 by t4d...@gmail.com:

> The residential tag should be used for an area not a house.
>
> On Wed, 13 May 2020 at 14:38, Donie Kelly  wrote:
>
>> Don’t buildings have tags? Did I see a residential tag? Is it used in all
>> cases?
>>
>> > On 13 May 2020, at 13:24, Colm Moore  wrote:
>> >
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > Inspired by seeing the estimate in the Microgrant application of 5.5
>> million buildings on the island of Ireland, I did some number crunching.
>> >
>> > I downloaded the populations of Kilkenny townlands (1,500+) from the CSO
>> and analysed the population against the number of buildings per civil
>> parish (100+) for County Kilkenny. This is assuming Kilkenny has all or
>> nearly all buildings mapped. Based on my inspections, this is largely true.
>> >
>> > The CSO data is somewhat distorted for the Kilkenny city area (100+
>> townlands), due to the way the CSO have arranged the townlands and civil
>> parishes. I could look at this in more detail, but there would be a few
>> hours of effort (unless someone has a simple way of calculating number of
>> buildings per area, for a large number of areas).
>> >
>> > I calculated the 'number of buildings per civil parish' using the
>> Overpass Turbo query [building=* in "civilparishname, Kilkenny"]. Overpass
>> Turbo gives a summary of the data in the bottom right corner of the screen,
>> e.g.
>> >
>> > Loaded – nodes: 4261, ways: 867, relations: 2
>> > Displayed – pois: 0, lines: 0, polygons: 866
>> >
>> > I took the number of polygons to mean the number of buildings (this
>> might not be perfect - I don't know how those numbers add up).
>> Additionally, some polygons, e.g. building=terrace represent several
>> buildings, while in other cases buildings may have been crudely split or
>> joined-up.
>> >
>> > Depending on the civil parish, we're looking at 0.32-2.29 polygons per
>> capita (0.44-3.15 people per building). Rural areas ten to have more
>> polygons per capita, especially due to farm outbuildings, while urban areas
>> have fewer polygons per capita, due to apartments buildings and
>> semi-detached buildings (e.g. two square houses joined together might have
>> only six nodes).
>> >
>> > I also calculated 4.40-5.83 nodes per polygon. This means some civil
>> parishes have predominantly rectangular polygons / buildings, whereas
>> others have many L-shaped or other-shaped polygons / buildings.
>> >
>> > As I wasn't able to immediately get some 'number of buildings per civil
>> parish' numbers (Overpass Turbo had problems returning them, possibly due
>> to duplicate names and variations in name spellings), I had to calculate
>> them from their component townlands, using the Overpass Turbo query
>> [building=* in "townlandname, civilparishname, Kilkenny"].
>> >
>> > Depending on the townland, we're looking at 0.23-8.00 polygons per
>> capita (0.13-4.37 people per building) and 3.91-6.45 nodes per polygon
>> (i.e. some townlands have large numbers of semi-detached or terraced
>> buildings, whereas others have a high number of complicated-shape polygons
>> / buildings or buildings with too many mapped nodes). It is usual to see
>> more extreme spreads when looking at smaller areas.
>> >
>> > I'm coming up with about 5.4 million (close enough!) buildings for the
>> whole island, assuming the pattern is the same everywhere. However, as
>> shown by analysing the smaller areas, there is variation and the 'final'
>> number will vary from that. Of course, given that OSM is an ongoing
>> project, there will never be a final number.
>> >
>> > Colm
>> > VictorIE
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] OpenStreetMap Ireland Microgrant Application

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

Edit a wiki page of an appropriate proposal.

For example see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Microgrants/Microgrants_2020/Proposal/StreetComplete_as_an_entry_point_to_OpenStreetMap#Endorsements

In this case you may need to create an OSM Wiki account.

Go to https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:CreateAccount

Once you log in you should be able to edit entire page or specific sections,
look for an "edit" button.

You may want to use 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Special:Preferences
to customize Wiki for you
(for example to get rid of new editor that at least for me is quite irritating)

May 12, 2020, 20:25 by colmmoor...@hotmail.com:

> Hi,
>
> How do we do the "*Community members are encouraged to endorse your project 
> request here!*" bit?
>
> Colm
>
> ---
> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change 
> the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Tagging in the building tasks

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

Tagging everything as houses without
checking would be wrong.

This way you damage data and turns
building=house into duplicate of 
building=yes

Please, do not make this kind of thing.
25 Jan 2020, 09:51 by n...@sqrt.co.uk:
> Since the majority of buildings are houses, you could mass tag them all as 
> houses since that would be the least wrong tagging overall. 
>
> On Sat, 25 Jan 2020, 08:48 Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie, <> 
> talk-ie@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> It is typically much faster to add just
>>  geometries. Maybe whoever was doing
>>  this is not so interested in value of
>>  building tag?
>>  
>>  Or maybe a mistake was made somewhere?
>>  
>>  25 Jan 2020, 09:43 by >> davecor...@gmail.com>> :
>>  
>>  > I'll rephrase the question. 
>>  >
>>  > Why are these buildings being tagged with the least descriptive tag 
>> rather than utilising a more descriptive tag which can be easily done in 
>> approx 90% of cases from imagery?
>>  >
>>  > As I said, maybe I'm missing something here and there is a logical 
>> explanation as to why this is being done, I just can't see it. 
>>  >
>>  > Dave 
>>  >
>>  >
>>  > On Sat 25 Jan 2020, 07:51 Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie, <> >> 
>> talk-ie@openstreetmap.org>> > > wrote:
>>  >
>>  >> 24 Jan 2020, 23:05 by >> >> davecor...@gmail.com>> >> :
>>  >>  
>>  >>  > I'm wondering if there is something I'm missing here. Why are we not
>>  >>  > tagging buildings with the correct tagging?
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  building=yes is correct
>>  >>  
>>  >>  Adding specific building type is also
>>  >>  correct and desirable, but mapping all
>>  >>  buildings as building=yes is also correct
>>  >>  
>>  >>  mapping just landuse=residential without
>>  >>  mapping any buildings is also correct
>>  >>  Similarly, mapping shops just with
>>  >>  shop typeshop=convenience/supermarket/etc
>>  >>  without specifying name=*, opening_hours=*
>>  >>  and other similar tags is also correct.
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Tagging in the building tasks

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

It is typically much faster to add just
geometries. Maybe whoever was doing
this is not so interested in value of
building tag?

Or maybe a mistake was made somewhere?

25 Jan 2020, 09:43 by davecor...@gmail.com:

> I'll rephrase the question. 
>
> Why are these buildings being tagged with the least descriptive tag rather 
> than utilising a more descriptive tag which can be easily done in approx 90% 
> of cases from imagery?
>
> As I said, maybe I'm missing something here and there is a logical 
> explanation as to why this is being done, I just can't see it. 
>
> Dave 
>
>
> On Sat 25 Jan 2020, 07:51 Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie, <> 
> talk-ie@openstreetmap.org> > wrote:
>
>> 24 Jan 2020, 23:05 by >> davecor...@gmail.com>> :
>>  
>>  > I'm wondering if there is something I'm missing here. Why are we not
>>  > tagging buildings with the correct tagging?
>>  >
>>  building=yes is correct
>>  
>>  Adding specific building type is also
>>  correct and desirable, but mapping all
>>  buildings as building=yes is also correct
>>  
>>  mapping just landuse=residential without
>>  mapping any buildings is also correct
>>  Similarly, mapping shops just with
>>  shop typeshop=convenience/supermarket/etc
>>  without specifying name=*, opening_hours=*
>>  and other similar tags is also correct.
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Tagging in the building tasks

[Mateusz Konieczny via Talk-ie]

24 Jan 2020, 23:05 by davecor...@gmail.com:

> I'm wondering if there is something I'm missing here. Why are we not
> tagging buildings with the correct tagging?
>
building=yes is correct

Adding specific building type is also
correct and desirable, but mapping all
buildings as building=yes is also correct

mapping just landuse=residential without
mapping any buildings is also correct
Similarly, mapping shops just with
shop typeshop=convenience/supermarket/etc
without specifying name=*, opening_hours=*
and other similar tags is also correct.
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] ID freezing / hanging

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Can you share exact location where it was happening?

You can also try reporting issue at https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD

You can also try switching to  https://preview.ideditor.com/master (development 
version,
ahead of a released one - may contain new bugs, but also fixes to bugs. Has a 
completely
new interface)

22 Jan 2020, 21:32 by colmmoor...@hotmail.com:

> Hi,
>
> I exclusively use ID. Yeah, sue me. :) It has improved a lot.
>
> Over the last few weeks, it has been freezing / hanging a lot, for 30-60 
> seconds every few minutes. It coincides with me doing a lot of editing in 
> Lesotho, mostly adding / correcting tags to existing ways.
>
> Might this be because many of the ways (typically roads in extremely rural 
> areas) involved have as many as a thousand nodes?
>
> Colm
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Computer advice

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I simply switch to a different app,
with phone closing it if necessary.
You can also use back button.
19 Nov 2019, 12:28 by kgu...@php.net:

> I agree with all of this, josm, streetcomplete,  Vespucci etc.
>
> speaking of which, what's the best way to quit out of Vespucci? there's got
> to be something better than using the task manager to kill it !:-)
>
> cheers
>
> Ken
>
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 at 11:13, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> 18 Nov 2019, 22:42 by montg...@fuse.net:
>>
>> > What software would you recommend?  ArcGIS, QGIS, JOSM.  I could pick up
>> > any.  I would appreciate your suggestions and links to any tutorials to
>> > learn such software.
>> >
>> I recommend
>> - iD for newbie friendly editing,
>> - StreetComplete Android app for limited but very easy editing
>> - JOSM for more advanced editing
>> - Vespucci as a mobile version of JOSM on Android
>>
>> For Apple mobile devices there is GoMap!! that is described as working
>> well.
>>
>> iD has a build-in tutorial, and more info at
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ID
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM has some listed help and
>> tutorials
>>
>> For StreetComplete see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete
>> and
>> and its quest list
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete/Quests
>> Entire StreetComplete tutorial follows:
>> It is intended to be used as one walks across some place,
>> with quests appearing as markers on the map. Selecting marker
>> allows one to answer a simple question.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Go_Map!! and
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vespucci describes other editors.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editors has listing of editors
>>
>> I would not recommend QGIS and ArcGis as OSM editors.
>> I never used them for such purpose and I strongly suspect that
>> programs intended solely as an OSM editor will be far better
>> and more people can help in case of a trouble.
>>
>> > What about touch screens vs 2-in-1 computers?  Any preferences for those
>> of
>> > you in the field?
>> >
>> I strongly prefer editing on StreetComplete and Vespucci over making notes
>> and
>> editing at home.
>>
>> I still use JOSM for more complex edits, tracing aerial imagery. And iD
>> for quick
>> fixes based on what I remember and spotted to be wrong.
>>
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>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Computer advice

[Mateusz Konieczny]

18 Nov 2019, 22:42 by montg...@fuse.net:

> What software would you recommend?  ArcGIS, QGIS, JOSM.  I could pick up
> any.  I would appreciate your suggestions and links to any tutorials to
> learn such software.
>
I recommend 
- iD for newbie friendly editing,
- StreetComplete Android app for limited but very easy editing
- JOSM for more advanced editing
- Vespucci as a mobile version of JOSM on Android

For Apple mobile devices there is GoMap!! that is described as working well.

iD has a build-in tutorial, and more info at 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/ID

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JOSM has some listed help and tutorials

For StreetComplete see https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete and
and its quest list https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/StreetComplete/Quests
Entire StreetComplete tutorial follows:
It is intended to be used as one walks across some place, 
with quests appearing as markers on the map. Selecting marker 
allows one to answer a simple question.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Go_Map!! and
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Vespucci describes other editors.
 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Editors has listing of editors

I would not recommend QGIS and ArcGis as OSM editors.
I never used them for such purpose and I strongly suspect that
programs intended solely as an OSM editor will be far better
and more people can help in case of a trouble.

> What about touch screens vs 2-in-1 computers?  Any preferences for those of
> you in the field?
>
I strongly prefer editing on StreetComplete and Vespucci over making notes and
editing at home.

I still use JOSM for more complex edits, tracing aerial imagery. And iD for 
quick 
fixes based on what I remember and spotted to be wrong.

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Computer advice

[Mateusz Konieczny]

11 Nov 2019, 23:16 by montg...@fuse.net:

>  2. I could obtain a copy of ArcGIS.  Or do you use QGIS?
>
It highly depends on a situation (integrating with existing systems,
who would pay for ArcGis licences, needed features), but I would consider 
QGIS as generally preferable as it is an open source and without expensive
licences.
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] How to map Irish pubs?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

I would expect brand tag to be brand 
of pub (what AFAIK is rare), not
list of brands of its inventory.

8 Oct 2019, 23:43 by t4d...@gmail.com:

> This doesn't directly solve the problem, but you could use the brand tag
> and put in the Guinness and other drinks that are traditionally in an Irish
> pub if you knew their selection.
>
> On Tue, 8 Oct 2019 at 21:38, Rory McCann  wrote:
>
>> Hi there fellow OSMers,
>>
>> What's the best way to tag an Irish pub? Not just a pub in Ireland, but
>> a specifically themed "Irish Pub" (which are usually outside Ireland)?
>>
>> There's ~300 instances of `cuisine=irish`, which would make total sense
>> for places which (also) serve food. Traditionally pubs in Ireland would
>> rarely serve food. Calling Tayto's “cuisine” is a stretch, and using the
>> `cuisine` tag seems weird for a bar/pub that doesn't serve any food.
>>
>> I've used `theme=irish` once or twice. But I don't think anyone else
>> does, and it's not supported. This might be related to mapping “sports
>> bars” or other themed bars. In theory the `theme` of a restaurant/bar
>> could be different from the `cuisine` of any food/drink it serves, so it
>> might make sense to tag this difference.
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> Rory
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Walking trails/cycling routes

[Mateusz Konieczny]

28 Apr 2019, 18:23 by webmas...@killyfole.org.uk:

> they are constantly being vandalised, mainly by inexperienced 
> users not understanding the relations and removing/amending ways without also 
> fixing the relations.
>
I would use other word like "broken", "vandalised" implies that it is malicious.

> I was wondering if there was a way to better educate new users in how 
> relations work
>
For start - how iD and JOSM react to user breaking relations in a typical
way? Is it safe to assume that cycling route that was continuous before edit
should almost certainly stay continuous after the edit?

If iD/JOSM validators are currently not spotting such mistakes - it may be 
useful to
suggest adding such detection.

The same with https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Osmose 
 and other QA

Maybe iD/JOSM  editors can start displaying such routes in a default map 
rendering
to visually indicate what edit is doing.

If you want to do that but unsure how to start - I can write more how it can be 
done.

> Maybe this could be automated to ping the IRC channel 
> when a relation is broken?
>
In principle it is possible, but I would start from improving existing QA tools
rather than making a new one (I made mistake with creating one[1] that is 
unused because
we have no shortage of QA tools but shortage of mappers interested in fixing 
detected
issues)

[1] https://matkoniecz.github.io/OSM-wikipedia-tag-validator-reports/

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Validator of Wikipedia and Wikidata links in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 20, 2019, 1:24 PM by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 18:12, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> <mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>> > wrote:
>
>> Mar 19, 2019, 5:04 PM by >> a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk 
>> <mailto:a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk>>> :
>>
>> > Can you do this outside Ireland also?
>>
>> Are you interested in Ireland, part of the Ireland or some other part of the 
>> world?
>>
>
> I'm in the UK (so please do that), but have a global interest in
> improving OSM/Wikidata+Wikipedia integration.
>
https://matkoniecz.github.io/OSM-wikipedia-tag-validator-reports/ 
<https://matkoniecz.github.io/OSM-wikipedia-tag-validator-reports/>
For now just Dublin is added but it has some things to fix.
So for start it should be enough.

Let me know if there are some false positives or if report can be presented in
way making using it easier/more efficient.

>> (in fact this bot edit is result of project that was about listing invalid
>> wikipedia and wikidata tags).
>>
>
> Is that documented, please?
>
Wikipedia tag validator code is published at 
https://github.com/matkoniecz/OSM-wikipedia-tag-validator
but it is not too useful as part of its dependencies is not published
(open an issue on Github if you are interested in using the code, 
it will increase chance that I will focus on this project)
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 20, 2019, 1:01 PM by marc.ge...@gmail.com:

> AFAIK, one should use the main language of the area in which the
> feature is located. I think it is supposed to follow the language used
> to determine the name tag.
> So for the Belgian/Flemish town Antwerpen (Antwerp in English), you
> should use wikipedia=nl:Antwerpen (stad)
> This links to the Wikipedia page: > 
> https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antwerpen_(stad) 
> 
> Wikipedia knows that the English page is
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antwerp 
> >  (perhaps by using Wikidata
> internally)
>
Yes, the most useful part of Wikidata is linking Wikipedia articles 
in various languages with each other.

In this case see right side of https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q12892 

And Wikipedia is using this data to display


> This link and links to over a hundred other languages is found on the left
>

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Talk-ie Digest, Vol 118, Issue 12

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Yes, the same applies to wikidata tag, should have the same prefix.

(replying not to ml due to digest thing)


Mar 19, 2019, 8:44 PM by colmmoor...@hotmail.com:

> Hi,
>
> I'll sort out the memorials. :) If one does subject:wikipedia does one also 
> need to do subject:wikidata ?
>
> Some less obvious "wiki" related tags.
>
>  *   FIXME
>  *   artist:wikipedia
>  *   brand:wikidata
>  *   brand:wikipedia
>  *   fixme
>  *   flag
>  *   image
>  *   name:etymology:wikidata
>  *   note
>  *   operator:wikidata
>  *   operator:wikipedia
>  *   photo
>  *   photograph
>  *   royal_cypher:wikidata
>  *   source:data
>  *   source:image
>  *   source:name
>  *   source:ref
>  *   subject:wikidata
>  *   subject:wikipedia
>  *   url
>  *   website
>
> Colm
>
>
> ---
> Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change 
> the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. Margaret Mead
>
> --
>
>
> Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 16:11:57 +
> From: Andy Mabbett <> a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk 
> > >
>
> On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 13:04, Colm Moore <> colmmoor...@hotmail.com 
> > > wrote:
>
>> 2. I add the wikipedia tag to a variety of objects, not just geographical 
>> entities.
>>
>
> Please don't do that; at least not in the manner discussed below.
>
>> Memorials
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4217632743 
>> 
>>
>
> That should be subject:wikipedia=en:Lafcadio Hearn.
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 19, 2019, 2:04 PM by colmmoor...@hotmail.com:

> Hi,
>
> 1. If it makes things easier for people, then go for it.
>
> 2. I add the wikipedia tag to>  a variety of objects, not just geographical 
> entities. Why won't these be converted?
>
wikipedia tag is supposed to be specifically about mapped object

For example statue of George Boole would have
subject:wikipedia=en:George Boole
tag, not
wikipedia=en:George Boole

Or
brand:wikipedia=en:McDonald's
on a McDonald's fast food rather than
wikipedia=en:McDonald's

See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wikipedia#Secondary_Wikipedia_links 
 
for more info.

> 4. Are there actually only about 40 entries to be changed?
>
Yes, but note
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_old-style_Wikipedia_links_in_Ireland#Repetition
 

that it may be rerun in future.


> http://stat.latlon.org/ie/latest/tags-w.html 
> 
> wikidata 3904
> wikimedia_commons 3
> wikipedia 1633
> wikipedia:de 1
> wikipedia:en 38
> wikipedia:fi 1
> wikipedia_1 1
>
> 5. Is there a big discrepancy between the number of > wikidata (> 3904> ) and 
> wikimedia (> 1633> ) objects? Is this an issue?
>
In Poland tagging standard is to use both wikipedia and wikidata tags if 
possible, if
the tagging standard in Ireland is the same I may add missing wikipedia and 
wikidata tags.

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 19, 2019, 3:10 PM by r...@technomancy.org:

> I'm not sure why one would bother with this, but whatever.
>
It went as follows:

- I made small prototype tool listing tourism attractions based on OSM data
- during development I discovered massive amount of broken wikipedia and 
wikidata tags
- due to scale and that problems were fixable by automatic edit I made a 
program for bot edits
(library parts ended on https://github.com/matkoniecz/osm_bot_abstraction_layer 
 and
https://github.com/matkoniecz/wikibrain 
 )
- I made bot edits that fixed tens of thousands objects in Poland
- in most cases (except one depending on links to TERYT, official government 
dataset in Poland)
scripts can be used in other regions
- so now I am checking whatever I would be allowed to run this script in 
various places,
including ones where some tagging issues are quite rare and would not justify
writing and testing an OSM bot - but running existing one is IMHO a good idea

> Are they any cases where there are more than wikipedia:XX tag, and what will 
> you do in that case? What will the wikipedia tag be?
>
In case of existing matching wikipedia tag - there is no problem and 
wikipedia:XX tags
will be removed.

Otherwise object will be skipped for a manual review.

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 19, 2019, 5:04 PM by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> On Tue, 19 Mar 2019 at 08:49, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> <mailto:matkoni...@tutanota.com>> > wrote:
>
>> For example "wikipedia:en=Ireland" is an old style link, while
>> "wikipedia=en:Ireland" is a form that is currently standard.
>>
>> Please comment no matter what you think about this idea! I will not
>> make the edit without a clear support so please comment if you think
>> that it is a good idea and if you think that it should not be done.
>>
>
> Sounds good. Can you do this outside Ireland also?
>
For now I processed Poland and USA.

I posted on mailing lists for Australia and Ireland, and I am planning to do it 
for GB.

It is not done as global edit as within Ukraine, Belarus and some other 
countries
multitagging Wikipedia tags is done as compromise to language wars -
and I am not interested in retriggering this case of "Ukraine vs Russia" 
discussions.

Also, proposing global bot edits is frequently protested by people believing
that any automated edit is harmful because it causes object to be edited.

>> Links detected as invalid (leading to disambigs, articles about humans,
>> animals, plants, events etc) are also skipped
>>
>
> Can you flag these up; perhaps by writing to a list on a wiki page?
> They need to be reviewed, and probably corrected.
>
OK! I will do it and post about it on this mailing list.

Are you interested in Ireland, part of the Ireland or some other part of the 
world?
Feel free to specify as narrow as you would like, requests up to
"withing X km from town Y" are feasible.

(in fact this bot edit is result of project that was about listing invalid 
wikipedia and wikidata tags).
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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 19, 2019, 5:11 PM by a...@pigsonthewing.org.uk:

> This is why its batter to tag with Wikidata IDs.
>
My favorite form is both wikipedia and wikidata tag,
wikipedia tag is human readable while wikidata is more stable
and allows easily follow article name changes.

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Re: [OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mar 19, 2019, 6:13 PM by r...@technomancy.org:

> On 19/03/2019 09:49, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> Old style wikipedia link is one where language is stored in key, not in
>> value.
>>
>> For example "wikipedia:en=Ireland" is an old style link, while
>> "wikipedia=en:Ireland" is a form that is currently standard.
>>
>
> To expand, what do you mean here? What makes one the "standard" and the other 
> not? 
>
Usage. See https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/wikipedia 
<https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/wikipedia> and
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/wikipedia%3Aen 
<https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/wikipedia%3Aen> (8000 vs 1 088 000 
uses).

To lesser degree - OSM Wiki recommendations and support from data consumers.

>
> What/who consumers wikipedia* tags in OSM and what do they do with it?
>
As usual with data consumers - various things.

For example fetching descriptions from Wikipedia (Osmand and other map
displays) or influence on search results rankings (or example Nominatim) and 
others uses.

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/wikipedia#projects 
<https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/wikipedia#projects> has lists of 4 more 
projects that
submitted used tags to taginfo, but there are more not mentioned there.


> Which format is better for the data consumers?
>
One where it is enough to support single tagging scheme.

>
> If the wikipedia=en:X format is better than wikipedia:en=X format for data 
> consumer Y, that's one thing. It just seems to squash a lot of data into one, 
> and run the risk of losing data, since many wikipedia tags would be removed 
> from OSM...
>
Information would not be lost. If there would be only wikipedia:en tag then 
wikipedia tag would be created.

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[OSM-talk-ie] Proposed mechanical edit - elimination of old-style Wikipedia links in Ireland

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Old style wikipedia link is one where language is stored in key, not in
value.

For example "wikipedia:en=Ireland" is an old style link, while
"wikipedia=en:Ireland" is a form that is currently standard.

Many old-style Wikipedia links remain and updating them to new style
manually is boring, tedious and some mistakes may appear during this.

Some OSM elements have old-style Wikipedia link without new tag what
means that this data is harder to process for editors and data
consumers.

Also, remaining old-style Wikipedia tags confuse mappers, especially
less experienced.

Therefore I propose to run an automatic edit that will replace
old-style Wikipedia links with current style of Wikipedia links.

Please comment no matter what you think about this idea! I will not
make the edit without a clear support so please comment if you think
that it is a good idea and if you think that it should not be done.

Plan is as follows:

I will take full responsibility for all edits and if anything goes
wrong I will fix it.

Editing is limited to objects with old-style Wikipedia tags is not
conflicting with existing wikipedia=* or wikidata=* tag or other
old-style wikipedia tags.

Links detected as invalid (leading to disambigs, articles about humans,
animals, plants, events etc) are also skipped

Each changeset contains a single element or group of close elements to
avoid edits spanning across large areas (it is impossible in cases
where edited object itself spans very large area)

After every changeset bot sleeps for one minute.

This is proposed as reoccurring edit and may be made as soon as new
old-style wikipedia links appear.

documentation page on OSM Wiki is at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Mechanical_Edits/Mateusz_Konieczny_-_bot_account/elimination_of_old-style_Wikipedia_links_in_Ireland

I have experience with automatic edits. exactly the same task was run
in Poland to remove more than 6000 old-style Wikipedia links what was
completed without any issues.

I recently processed also old-style Wikipedia tags across USA. 


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