Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Thanks Chris (and everyone else) for your very helpful contributions.

I've tried to synthesise the discussion on this thread and would like to
propose the following for the Wales section of the Multilingual Tagging
page on the OSM Wiki.

This would be a slight change from the current entry

BEGINS/---

In Wales many, but by no means all, places and features are named
differently in Welsh and English.

*Instances where the name is different in Welsh and English*

The name tag should contain the name widely used by the local population.

This should be either the name used in English or the name used in Welsh
but not both.

If the name included in the name: tag is that used in English, name:cy can
be added to show the alternate name (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language
code for the Welsh language).

If it is the name included in the name: tag is the name used in Welsh,
name:en can be added to show the alternate name (en is the two letter
ISO639-1 language code for the English language).

Examples:

name: Welshpool
name:cy Y Trallwng

name: Biwmares
name:en Beaumaris

It should not be necessary to add both name:en and name:cy though it is not
harmful to do so.

*Instances where the name is the same in Welsh and English*

The name: tag should contain the name.

It is not, in principle, necessary to add either a name:cy or a name:en
(since there is only one name in both languages).

However

Multi-lingual tagging in Wales is currently patchy. Adding a name:cy tag
even though this will duplicate the information in the name: tag would help
other mappers distinguish between cases where multi-lingual tagging has not
yet been applied and cases where the name is the same in Welsh and English.

Example:
name: Caernarfon
name:cy Caernarfon

---/ENDS


I *think* this largely synthesises the discussion so far. I'd welcome more
comments on this.


On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 4:40 PM Christopher Jones 
wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>
> Personally, I don’t see the point of
>
> name: Swansea
> name:en Swansea
> name:cy Abertawe
>
> It's stating the obvious that if name:cy is not the same as name: for a
> place in Wales, the name attribute is the English, and visa versa. It’s a
> little close to “tagging for the renderer” for my taste. That said it costs
> little to duplicate it in practice, so rock on if that’s what you want to
> do!
>
> Regarding what should be in the name tag, we have a set of flawed options…
>
> You initially suggested using a “widely” known by rule, this by its nature
> favours the English names. The majority of the Welsh population are primary
> English speakers, and despite a huge amount of time and money being spent
> on welsh language laws and education provision that’s not about to change
> in any of our lifetimes, even the welsh governments hugely ambitious target
> is for 1M welsh speakers by 2050, that still less than a third of the
> population.
>
> • always use the name that is used in Welsh
>
> In Gwynedd where 65% of the population identify as able to speak welsh,
> this might make some sense, in Blaenau Gwent where its 7.8%, this makes no
> sense. (Figures from the 2011 census)
>
> • use the Welsh name and English name together separated by a
> hyphen (which is the practice in some other countries)
>
> I’m going to refer you to
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020478.html
> where I made my argument against this (tl;dr - its ugly, confusing and
> there are much better ways of achieving the aim (ie localised renders))
>
> • use the name on local signage
>
> I’m going to assume you mean to use the first name on the local signage
> because the vast majority of signage has both English and welsh names
> (where they both exist), indeed its been a legal requirement for them to do
> so for quite some time. The major issue with this is since the Welsh
> Language Measure of 2011 councils have a duty to ensure "that the Welsh
> language is treated no less favourably than the English language” this
> ensures that on any sign made in the last 10 years Welsh is first
> regardless of local usage.
>
> So we end up with the status quo….
>
> • use the name that is used by the "local population" (which is
> what the wiki currently suggests)
>
> This too has issues, the main one being its hard to verify, it relies on
> local mappers being able to reach a consensus.
>
> To me, this remains the pragmatic option!
>
> Thanks for reading!
>
> And Ben, thanks for taking on the welsh render!
>
> —
> Chris - not a Welsh speaker, but ran cyOSM, the first multilingual OSM
> render many moons ago.
>
>
> > On 21 Oct 2020, at 12:10, Ben Proctor  wrote:
> >
> > Thanks to everyone who has chipped in on this thread so far.
> >
> > 

Re: [Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

t; local usage.  Sometimes that loses some local colour - in Dublin "Anglesea
> Road" used to be signed as "Bóthar Môn" but now in OSM it's just "Bóthar
> Anglesea".  See also https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/52241235 which
> I've heard referred to as "Dingle / An Daingean" (there's lots of politics
> both national and local associated with that).
>
>
> All of the above is written with the big caveat that I'm new to OSM and
> not a Welsh language or place name expert in any way, I wouldn't go against
> the group decision on this and have been quite conservative with my edits
> so far because I know it's a huge topic to get into. Overall I think you
> should be congratulated for broaching the subject and trying to pin down a
> policy on it as it really does stir up a lot of strong sentiment in this
> part of the world!
>
> As I'm sure Ben and Mapio Cymru would echo, thanks for making sure that
> Welsh names of places are recorded where they currently are not.  It always
> strikes me as a bit jarring to see English names jumping out in
> predominantly Welsh areas at https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ (which will
> use the default "name" tag if name:cy is missing in areas where it's trying
> to show Welsh names).
>
> Moving on to Ben's original mail:
> On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:06, Ben Proctor  wrote:
>
>
>> From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion,
>> replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):
>>
>>
>>
>> *[starts/---] In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which
>> the place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not
>> both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name:
>> Wales/Cymru. *
>>
> *Where I suspect there may be further questions is where a place is known
> in Welsh-speaking areas as one name and in English-speaking areas as
> another.  In OSM typically the "name" tag would be set according to the
> locally-used language, so "Yr Wyddfa" for
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1745517169> makes sense to me.*
>
>
> *That gets tricky for areas that include multiple languages -
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437
> <https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/58437> is currently "name=Cymru /
> Wales" in OSM, but I'll let people who are actually from that area comment
> on whether that's appropriate or not. *
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> * name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or feature
>> is known in English. name:cy should be used to give the name by which the
>> place or feature is known in Welsh Even though this will lead to apparent
>> duplication. For example: name: Swansea name:en Swansea name:cy Abertawe
>> This allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so rather
>> than duplication is conveying useful new information.*
>> *[---/ends]*
>>
>
> *I'd agree that that bit (duplicating names) does make sense for
> essentially the same reasons as you - so that people do know that "yes
> there is an English name" and "yes there is a Welsh name".  Otherwise if
> someone was to change the name there to "name=Swansea / Abertawe" it would
> break map.atownsend.org.uk <http://map.atownsend.org.uk> which explicitly
> tries not to show compound names in Wales, England or Scotland.  Someone
> who does want to show compound names can of course do that using "name:cy /
> name:en".  For completeness, as you also mention, some OSM communities do
> use compound names.  The Brussels region of Belgium is another example, and
> hyphenated names there are I believe "the official names".  That sort of
> tagging hasn't traditionally been done in Wales, England, or Scotland
> though. *
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Andy
>
> For completeness - I'm both a member of OSM's Data Working Group who tend
> to handle some of these language disputes and separately to that the
> developer of https://map.atownsend.org.uk/ .
>
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[Talk-GB] Multi-lingual tagging in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi everyone

I'd like to open up the currently unresolved question of multilingual
tagging in Wales.

In the Mapio Cymru project we've been exploring Welsh language mapping
https://openstreetmap.cymru/ and we've done some thinking about how Welsh
and English naming works in parts of Wales. We plan to organise some
(online) workshops in November to encourage people to add Welsh language
tags to the map. Those workshops will initially be delivered through the
medium of Welsh but we hope also to run some in English at a later date.

The wiki entry for Wales in Multilingual Names highlights that this has
been an area of discussion.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

The current entry is short and so I'll reproduce it here in full.






*[starts/---]In Wales, the name tag should be used for whatever the local
population uses.name:en and name:cy can be used to give English and Welsh
names where such names exist but are not the name used by the local
population. (cy is the two letter ISO639-1 language code for the Welsh
language.)The percentage of Welsh speakers varies very significantly across
the country and visiting mappers should be aware of local usage.*
*[---/ends]*

>From a Mapio Cymru perspective we'd like to propose, for discussion,
replacing this text with the following (reasoning follows):













*[starts/---]In Wales the name tag should be used for the name by which the
place is widely known in Wales. This could be English or Welsh but not
both. So name: Wales or name: Cymru would be acceptable but not name:
Wales/Cymru.name:en should be used to give the name by which the place or
feature is known in English.name:cy should be used to give the name by
which the place or feature is known in WelshEven though this will lead to
apparent duplication. For example:name: Swanseaname:en Swanseaname:cy
AbertaweThis allows places and features to be named unambiguously and so
rather than duplication is conveying useful new information.*
*[---/ends]*

*Our Reasoning*
Wales is a bilingual country and many places have different names in Welsh
and English. Many other places have the same name in Welsh and English. It
is not possible to infer from the Name tag whether the contents are in
Welsh or English.

We believe that the only unambiguous way to name places and features in
Wales is to use the name:en and name:cy tags.

The "name" tag does not fit the Wales context well but we recognise its
importance within the wider OSM community. Though in some bilingual
countries the name tag contains both versions of a name and notably in the
Basque country this seemingly reflects the official state policy of
designating the official name of a town as its two names delimited by a
hyphen. We believe in the Wales context this would be better achieved by
processing name:en and name:cy tags.

We're really happy to get some feedback, questions or comments on this
proposal. Especially highlighting things we might have missed or
misconstrued.

Cheers

Ben
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OpenStreetMap.Cymru
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Re: [Talk-GB] Tagging a St John's Ambulance base

[Ben Proctor]

Thanks both

On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 21:53, Peter Neale via Talk-GB <
talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

> ...Or, looking at their website, it is a charity, so perhaps that makes it
> a "social facility"?
>
> Oh BTW, it is "St John Ambulance", not "St John's Ambulance" (I don't know
> why, but it is...)
>
> See St John Ambulance - the nation’s leading first aid charity
> <http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/default.aspx>
>
> St John Ambulance - the nation’s leading first aid charity
>
> First aid is a simple skill with an incredible impact. We want everyone to
> learn it, so that they can be the dif...
> <http://www.sja.org.uk/sja/default.aspx>
>
> Regards,
> Peter Neale
> t: 01908 309666
> m: 07968 341930
> skype: nealepb
>
>
> On Wednesday, 10 July 2019, 21:20:36 BST, Peter Neale via Talk-GB <
> talk-gb@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
>
> Personally, I would have thought of it as a club, in which first aid is
> taught, as a hobby ( No offence intended to any St John volunteers)
>
> Peter
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> <https://go.onelink.me/107872968?pid=InProduct=Global_Internal_YGrowth_AndroidEmailSig__AndroidUsers_wl=ym_sub1=Internal_sub2=Global_YGrowth_sub3=EmailSignature>
>
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2019 at 20:30, Mark Goodge
>  wrote:
>
>
> On 10/07/2019 19:08, Ben Proctor wrote:
> > Hello mapping people
> >
> > There is a building and yard in Hereford used by St John's Ambulance.
> > The building functions as a meeting venue (like a scout hut but for St
> > John's) and some vehicles are stored in the yard.
> >
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.06051/-2.71419
> >
> > How would you tag this?
> >
> > It's currently amenity=doctors which doesn't seem right.
> > emergency=ambulance_station doesn't seem to describe this use.
> >
> > I was heading down amenity=community_centre route but I'm not sure
> > that's right either.
> >
> > A quick search for St John's Ambulance reveals a wider range of
> > approaches in other areas.
>
> I'd be inclined to go for community centre, in this case. It isn't an
> emergency ambulance station, which is what the
> emergency=ambulance_station tag is for (and, in any case, is rapidly
> becoming obsolete with the new distributed means of organising an
> ambulance service), and it isn't a doctor or a clinic either. And the
> main purpose of the building (as opposed to the yard) is for things like
> first aid training (both for St John volunteers themselves and the wider
> community). So a community centre is probably closest.
>
> Mark
>
> Mark
>
>
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[Talk-GB] Tagging a St John's Ambulance base

[Ben Proctor]

Hello mapping people

There is a building and yard in Hereford used by St John's Ambulance. The
building functions as a meeting venue (like a scout hut but for St John's)
and some vehicles are stored in the yard.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/52.06051/-2.71419

How would you tag this?

It's currently amenity=doctors which doesn't seem right.
emergency=ambulance_station doesn't seem to describe this use.

I was heading down amenity=community_centre route but I'm not sure that's
right either.

A quick search for St John's Ambulance reveals a wider range of approaches
in other areas.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
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Re: [Talk-gb-westmidlands] Collaboration with shire transport authorities

[Ben Proctor]

Hi

I'm based in Hereford and happy to be a contact here.

Cheers

Ben

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 at 12:39, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Tue, 2019-04-23 at 11:45 +0100, Brian Prangle wrote:
>
> Hi everyone
>
> Mainly for west mids mappers but cross-posted to talkgb for a wider
> audience.
>
> For some time I've collaborated with TfWM who make extensive use of
> OpenStreetMap. Together we've refreshed the entire NapTAN dataset for the
> West Midlands and we're engaged on an ongoing basis in solving data quality
> issues where the OSM data throws up errors with their bus routeing software.
> Word spreads and at a regional meeting of  shire transport authorities
> there was a request for contact with local OSM volunteers in the following
> areas:
>
> Herefordshire, Shropshire, Staffordshire, Stoke, Telford, Warwickshire,
> Worcestershire
>
> If anyone wants to volunteer please get in touch with me and I can put you
> in touch. It will mainly involve dealing with errors they spot such as
> missing/wrong roadnames, missing/wrong roads. With TfWM there's been an
> average of one of these week, sometimes bunched together followed by weeks
> with nothing - so not a heavy workload and worth the effort to improve the
> data.
>
> If my experience is anything to go by, there'll be an initial peak and
> then they'll realise, with a little prompting, it's easier and quicker to
> fix the errors themselves. But it's good to have an initial period of
> handholding as  I think they are respectful  of causing any damage
>
> Hi Brian
> Please put me forward for Shropshire and Telford.
>
> Cheers Phil
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Re: [Talk-GB] Mapping Shropshire's rights of way

[Ben Proctor]

I'm not sure whether this is helpful but I wrote this earlier this year
with the help of the OS. It's an attempt to unpick some of the issues in
asking local authorities for mapping data.

https://medium.com/the-satori-lab/alpha-asking-your-council-for-mapping-data-b174a0875e42

Though we didn't have OSM contribution as a use case in mind when we wrote
it. I plan to revise it soon (this is rather overdue actually). Any
feedback that would make the next version helpful would be very gratefully
received.

On 4 September 2018 at 12:40, Jez Nicholson  wrote:

> Hello James,
>
> Please also take a look at the current OSMUK quarterly project which is
> highly relevant
> https://osmuk.org/quarterly-projects/ ...and consider joining the group.
>
> Regards,
>Jez
>
> On Tue, 4 Sep 2018 12:17 David Woolley, 
> wrote:
>
>> On 04/09/18 10:55, James wrote:
>> > The officer confirmed that Rights of Way data was in the
>> > public domain for any use.
>>
>> That's a bad sign, as it indicates that they don't understand UK
>> intellectual property law.  They only way that database rights can lapse
>> into the public domain is through the passage of time.
>>
>> There are two likely rights owners.  One is the council.  They need to
>> explicitly licence their data base right under the Open Government
>> Licence.  Any other licence needs to be approved centrally.
>>
>> The other is Ordnance Survey.  That normally means that any actual map
>> cannot be used, although, if licensed by the council, the narrative
>> description can be used.
>>
>> >
>> > Following some more research, I discovered rowmaps.com which has a
>> > database of Shropshire's RoW data from 2014. I contacted the owner,
>> > Barry, to enquire about this data. He is currently seeking a more
>> > up-to-date database for me.
>>
>> I believe there are concerns that a lot of this data has been lifted
>> from council web sites without getting appropriate licenses.  Typically
>> web sites are licensed for personal, non-commercial, use, but OSM
>> requires that the licence permit redistribution, and permit commercial
>> use.
>>
>> >
>> > Once I have this data, what would be the best way to make it available
>> > in OSM? Is it not considered accurate to directly import the data, or
>> > should it be used as a guide for a ground survey?
>>
>> Given that it is likely that the database rights on the actual
>> coordinates are owned by OS, and you will have to use the narrative
>> descriptions, you are going to have use other sources, and on the ground
>> surveys are always best, to fill in the details.  In any case, any
>> import needs to be checked to make sure it is consistent with existing
>> data (e.g. doesn't duplicate it, and is topologically consistent with
>> other features, even if they are not in their true, WGS-84, positions.
>>
>> Also, what many OSM users are interested in is mapping those public
>> rights of way that the council does not know about, as there is a
>> deadline looming after which only those known to the council will be
>> valid rights of way.
>> >
>>
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Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi Adam

That makes sense to me. So for example..?

name - Caernarfon
name:cy - Caernarfon
old_name:en Carnarvon

Cheers

Ben




On 24 March 2018 at 21:17, Adam Snape <adam.c.sn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I think Ben's suggestion is sensible where there is a consistent and clear
> preference.
>
> As name:en is for the standard English name, I suggest avoiding using that
> tag for English names where the Welsh name is now also the more common one
> used in English. That said, I think avriant names are always worth adding.
> I would suggest using alt_name (if a name is still used by some) or
> old_name (if it is now out of usage).
>
> Regards,
>
> Adam
>
>
>
>
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 16:04, Ben Proctor <b...@satorilab.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it
>> was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project
>> in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
>> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
>> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
>> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
>> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>>
>> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
>> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
>> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> /wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
>> Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
>> their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
>> Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
>> Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *
>>
>> *In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when
>> communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in
>> doubt look for local usage / signage.*
>>
>>
>>
>> *Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the
>> place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.It
>> may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the
>> name in Welsh.*
>>
>> *Examples:*
>> *name - Swansea*
>> *name:cy - Abertawe*
>>
>> *name - Caernarfon*
>> *name:cy - Caernarfon*
>>
>> *name - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:cy - Heol Eglyws*
>> *name:en - Church Road*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape <adam.c.sn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
>>> criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
>>> the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
>>> either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or
>>> 'alternative' (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because
>>> there is no consensus and existing use counts for a lot.
>>>
>>> If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should
>>> be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we
>>> actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
>>> verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
>>> how we ought to map (but don't yet).
>>>
>>> Adam
>>>
>>> On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not
>>>>>> dictate how they should map.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method,
>>>>> not what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for 
>>>>> example!).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi Miguel

Thanks for the thoughts.

Personally I'm against bilingual labelling though I recognise that this is
common and uncontroversial in other parts of OSM.

My thought process has been like this:

   - There is no single name for many places. In Wales most places have a
   name that they are called when communicating in English and a name that
   they are called when communicating in Welsh. In neither language are both
   names used.
   - So the most important thing is that we label them with the English and
   Welsh name tags.
   - What then should we include in the "name" tag? Including both
   alternates seems, at first sight, like an attractive solution.
   - But what about the city of Henffordd or the town of Amwythig? They
   have Welsh names and English names so the logic would be to use both in the
   name tag. Except Hereford - Henffordd and Shrewsbury - Amwythig are in
   England and, I suspect, there would not be support to use bilingual names
   in OSM outside of the current boundary of Wales. I don't challenge that but
   I'd see it as a political judgement about the boundaries of Wales and the
   status of the Welsh language within the United Kingdom rather than a
   mapping decision.
   - In the UK generally "name" refers to the name by which it is known
   when communicating in English. It seems most straightforward, and least
   politically fraught, to me to continue this practice in Wales,.
   - The fundamental problem is that there is no "name" which is correct.
   In the medium term, as long as the name:cy and name:en are correct then the
   value of "name" should become less significant. Then it can be up to the
   user to decide if they want to display English, Welsh or both (and if both
   which language taking priority).

To address your specific question [3] what I would do when seeing a panel
displaying the Welsh and English name would be to add the values to name:en
and name:cy and then add one of those to the name tag. The choice of which
one to add to the name tag would be:
- if I know which one is used when communicating in English, choose that
- of I don't know, choose the Welsh name

But I'd be interested to understand more about the practice used in other
bilingual/multilingual nations on OSM.

Cheers

Ben


On 23 March 2018 at 23:49, Miguel Sevilla-Callejo <msevill...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Great initiative! Congratulations Ben,
>
> I'm sure you have more knowledge than me about the use of Welsh but I'd
> considerate an other the option for your propose for the generic "name"
> tag: the bilingual one.
>
> So, as I suggested last summer [1], and it was in the previous edition of
> the wiki, I'd use, for some situations (e.g. Aberytwyth street names) both
> languages in "name" tag with a "/" as separation following the indications
> and panels you could see in the field [2]. I guess It is a neutral an a
> real bilingual approach for a non English or Welsh render of OSM maps.
>
> What do you expect if I'm editing OSM in the ground and I see a bilingual
> panels to fill for the name tag? Well, I did what I saw: a bilingual name
> as you could see in other bilingual places of the World like Basque Country
> [3].
>
> Cheers
>
> Miguel
>
> [1] follow this threat from the beginning: https://lists.openstreetmap.
> org/pipermail/talk-gb/2017-August/020465.html
> [2] https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/j1ngoo9wTxbfXfnMdcEGVA
> [3] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Spain
>
> --
> *Miguel Sevilla-Callejo*
> Doctor en Geografía
>
> On 23 March 2018 at 17:04, Ben Proctor <b...@satorilab.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it
>> was in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project
>> in Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
>> Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
>> https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm
>> in Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue
>> this work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in
>> Wales. Here are the blogs about the project in English
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
>> http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/
>>
>> We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
>> project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
>> section of the Wiki https://wiki.openstreetmap.org
>> /wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales
>>
>> I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Ben
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Wa

Re: [Talk-GB] Edits in Wales

[Ben Proctor]

Hi all

I was lurking on this list when the original discussion started and it was
in my head when someone approached me about running a mapping project in
Wales. We've been using a little Welsh Government funding to support a
Welsh Language render of osm (currently just covering Wales)
https://openstreetmap.cymru . We've also been raising the profile of osm in
Wales, particularly in Welsh speaking communities. We hope to continue this
work over the coming months and grow a stronger osm community in Wales.
Here are the blogs about the project in English
http://cardiff.theodi.org/tag/mapiocymru/ and in Welsh
http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/tag/mapiocymru/

We've been discussing the issue of multi-language tagging as part of this
project and we would like to propose an update to the Welsh language
section of the Wiki
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Wales

I'd appreciate any comment and thoughts.

Cheers

Ben






*Wales is a bilingual country and many place names have both English and
Welsh versions. When communicating in English some places are known by
their Welsh name and some by their English name. When communicating in
Welsh all places are know by their Welsh name. Bilingual names (English and
Welsh versions) are not used in Wales. *

*In general the name tag should contain the name generally used when
communicating in English. In some cases this will be the Welsh name. If in
doubt look for local usage / signage.*



*Where possible please add a name:cy which is the name in Welsh for the
place. Please add this tag even if the name tag uses the name in Welsh.It
may also be helpful to add a name:en, especially if the name tag uses the
name in Welsh.*

*Examples:*
*name - Swansea*
*name:cy - Abertawe*

*name - Caernarfon*
*name:cy - Caernarfon*

*name - Heol Eglyws*
*name:cy - Heol Eglyws*
*name:en - Church Road*



On 16 August 2017 at 14:10, Adam Snape <adam.c.sn...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The 'best mapping method' is somewhat subjective. If it were the sole
> criteria, then we would instantly create documentation to replace lots of
> the less than ideal tags which have developed and explicitly depreciate
> either the classic (highway=footway/bridleway/cycleway) or 'alternative'
> (highway= path, access=*) tagging schemes. We don't because there is no
> consensus and existing use counts for a lot.
>
> If there is genuine consensus upon a better way then perhaps this should
> be documented. In the absence of such consensus, documenting how we
> actually currently map is preferable (because it is already prevalent and
> verifiable) to not documentating or documenting one school of thought on
> how we ought to map (but don't yet).
>
> Adam
>
> On 16 August 2017 at 11:20, Dave F <davefoxfa...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 16/08/2017 00:22, Warin wrote:
>>
>>> On 16-Aug-17 05:27 AM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>>>
>>>>   The wiki is after all intended to document how people map not dictate
>>>> how they should map.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would think that the wiki should guide to the best mapping method, not
>>> what people have done in the past (as found using taginfo for example!).
>>>
>>
>> +1
>>
>> DaveF
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>
>


-- 
Ben Proctor, Technical Director

*The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK

b...@satorilab.org | @likeawor <https://twitter.com/likeaword>d | 07904 1234
98 | LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/likeaword/>

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Re: [Talk-GB] Welsh language map

[Ben Proctor]

On 15 November 2017 at 14:38, SK53 <sk53@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Ben,
>
> Good to hear.
>
> I actually have a version of Carto-CSS which displays welsh names when
> present. It merely replaces all instances of name in the Carto-CSS queries
> with a more complicated bit of SQL. For complicated logistical reasons I
> haven't uploaded this to github, but can put aside some time to do so now.
> The style also has blue motorways!
>

Hi Jerry



That's excellent. Especially the motorways :-)


>
> Less successfully I have been trying to create a welsh name transparent
> overlay. This would be useful for places like Leicester Liverpool and
> London which have Welsh names but are outside the principality. A full set
> of tiles covering the UK for a handful of names is overkill. Apart from
> styling issues (finding colours and offsets which are legible with the main
> carto style), the biggest issue is names of areas which are multi-line and
> of variable size, and therefore more or less impossible to offset so that
> both the Welsh name & the name on the Carto style are visible.
>

There are a number of things we'd like to get into once we've done this bit:
- the idea of creating a Welsh language Atlas of the UK and the world is
very attractive (but definitely a phase 2 development)
- the discussion about how to handle English and Welsh side by side is
something to work through. Though there is a use case for a Welsh language
only render there are also use cases for Bilingual renders. (phase 2 again)
a transparent overlay sounds like a very interesting angle...


>
> Regards,
>
> Jerry
>
> On 15 November 2017 at 13:31, Ben Proctor <b...@satorilab.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi all
>>
>> The Welsh Government announced yesterday a grant to ODI-Cardiff to fund
>> some work around the Welsh language on OSM.
>>
>> This is our announcement
>>
>> In English http://cardiff.theodi.org/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/
>> and in Welsh http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/
>>
>> In the way of these things, the funding application was put together at
>> the last minute and, though we heard a couple of weeks ago that we would be
>> getting the grant we couldn't talk about it publicly until yesterday.
>>
>> We hope to:
>> - create a Welsh language tileserver (building on the excellent cysom
>> project)
>> - do some work to encourage tagging in the Welsh language and to
>> encourage more mapping in Wales
>> - encourage organisations in Wales (including the public sector) to make
>> more use of OSM including by demonstrating one or two simple Welsh
>> language uses
>>
>> The funding covers a project until end of March and we will also be
>> looking for opportunities for ongoing funding/support to keep the server
>> infrastructure viable into the medium term.
>>
>> We have contacted a few people off list to talk about this project but
>> I'm conscious that there are people who have been very actively mapping in
>> Wales for some time who we haven't had the chance to contact.
>>
>> We really hope to work with the whole community on this. Any suggestions,
>> insights, ideas, "definitely don't do this..." experiences etc would be
>> very gratefully received.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> --
>> Ben Proctor
>> ODI-Cardiff / The Satori Lab
>>
>> ___
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>> Talk-GB@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-gb
>>
>>
>


-- 
Ben Proctor
Technical Director
b...@satorilab.org | @likeaword | 07904 1234 98
*The Satori Lab*, 22 Windsor Place Cardiff. CF10 3BY Wales, UK


The Satori Lab Ltd is a company registered in Wales.
Registered number: 8857719.
Registered office: 22 Windsor Place, Cardiff, CF10 3BY
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[Talk-GB] Welsh language map

[Ben Proctor]

Hi all

The Welsh Government announced yesterday a grant to ODI-Cardiff to fund
some work around the Welsh language on OSM.

This is our announcement

In English http://cardiff.theodi.org/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/
and in Welsh http://cardiff.theodi.org/cy/2017/11/14/map-i-gymru/

In the way of these things, the funding application was put together at the
last minute and, though we heard a couple of weeks ago that we would be
getting the grant we couldn't talk about it publicly until yesterday.

We hope to:
- create a Welsh language tileserver (building on the excellent cysom
project)
- do some work to encourage tagging in the Welsh language and to encourage
more mapping in Wales
- encourage organisations in Wales (including the public sector) to make
more use of OSM including by demonstrating one or two simple Welsh language
uses

The funding covers a project until end of March and we will also be looking
for opportunities for ongoing funding/support to keep the server
infrastructure viable into the medium term.

We have contacted a few people off list to talk about this project but I'm
conscious that there are people who have been very actively mapping in
Wales for some time who we haven't had the chance to contact.

We really hope to work with the whole community on this. Any suggestions,
insights, ideas, "definitely don't do this..." experiences etc would be
very gratefully received.

Cheers

-- 
Ben Proctor
ODI-Cardiff / The Satori Lab
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