[Talk-us] Highway shield rendering: What's the blocker?
if I remember correctly, the US Local Chapter was planning to render highway shields, now that combined shield and overlap rendering is solved. What happened to that? Is there a blocker? If so, what is / are the blocker(s)? There appears to be periodic community interest in highway shields. Who is still interested in advancing this? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway shield rendering: What's the blocker?
On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 7:58 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: if I remember correctly, the US Local Chapter was planning to render highway shields, now that combined shield and overlap rendering is solved. What happened to that? Is there a blocker? If so, what is / are the blocker(s)? There appears to be periodic community interest in highway shields. Who is still interested in advancing this? I committed to throwing together the render after an ODbL licensed planet was released so I could reimport and not have to worry about dropping/re-adding the database. Sounds like just such a planet is available, so I will try to get that imported as soon as possible. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway shield rendering: What's the blocker?
Hi, On 09/13/2012 03:12 PM, Ian Dees wrote: Sounds like just such a planet is available, ... in a couple hours! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway shield rendering: What's the blocker?
can't wait! Unfortunately, I don't have enough disk space to import a ODbL planet while keeping the CC planet up. I need an up-to-date ways table to run the Fairy Dust against for the Remap-a-tron. Or more to the point: I need a current osmosis snapshot schema ways table (with ways geometry) and my custom deletedways table plus my Fairy Dust PL/PGSQL function in one database, and a cron job to run the Fairy Dust periodically, and either hosting of a simple python web service that extracts a random un-remapped way as geojson or access to the deletedways table for that script running remotely. Who can help out with that? Martijn On Thu, Sep 13, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: Hi, On 09/13/2012 03:12 PM, Ian Dees wrote: Sounds like just such a planet is available, ... in a couple hours! Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- martijn van exel http://oegeo.wordpress.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
One possible enhancement: add a border of the same color as the highway (e.g. red for primary). This would make it easier to identify which highway the shield refers to, which isn't always clear. This may of course be very complicated, in which case never mind. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org [2012-04-13 06:30 -0700]: Wait, what? I was under the impression that the banners as a network thing was proposed initially in this discussion, given that the modifier tag has been documented in the wiki for well over a year now. And it makes a lot more sense, since bannered routes aren't a different network. * Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-13 15:56 -0400]: Whether or not there was a consensus last year, it's clear that there is none at the present time. See the recent thread about the network tag. First, I have to apologize for not realizing that the network tag was mentioned in the wiki. I know http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route fairly well, but it makes no mention of the modifier tag. The only mention I can find on the wiki is at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging#Tagging_with_relations , which I didn't realize existed. I've mostly been going based on discussion on this list, a summary of which follows. (Hang on, though. Even as a summary, it's pretty long. I hope that I have adequately represent each person's oninion on the matter.) Jan 01, 2011: highway shields: get your kicks, where? http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/highway-shields-quot-get-your-kicks-where-quot-td5286976.html Thread mostly about Richard Weait's rendering of the Historic Route 66 shield, but Alan Mintz says: Cool. Shouldn't the relation be tagged: network=US:US ref=66 modifier=HISTORIC and NE2 replies: Using the modifier tag for a banner seems wrong, as the route designation is e.g. 30 Business, not 30. It's a little more iffy for a historic route. Presumably, Alan Mintz at the time would have supported, for US 1 Alternate, network=US:US, ref=1, modifier=ALTERNATE, while NE2 would have supported network=US:US, ref=1 Alternate. (More recent evidence indicates that NE2 would now prefer network=US:US, ref=1 Alternate, modifier=Alternate.) Aug 20, 2011: Use of ref-tag on state highways http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Use-of-ref-tag-on-state-highways-td5285587.html The thread was mostly about tagging ways, but it dipped into route relations a little. Craig Hinners said: Similarly, instead of this style of tagging of US business routes (example found in Salisbury, MD): network=US:US ref=50 Business I'd prefer: network=US:US:BUSINESS ref=50 and Jason Straub separately said: As the person that just got done labelling each TX state highway, I'll chime in here with some comments. For the network tag, I think that the labelling should be (country : state network : network within the state : subnetwork in state), while the ref is JUST the number for that highway. So: US:I - Interstate US:I:BUS - Business Interstate US:US - US Route US:US:BUS - Business US Route US:US:ALT:BUS - Business Alt US Route NE2 disagreed: I disagree with putting alternate and business in the network. These modifiers are part of the designation, and some states (Arkansas in particular) treat them as lettered suffixes rather than separate plates. Mar 11, 2012: Route Relations and Special (Bannered) Routes gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Route-Relations-and-Special-Bannered-Routes-tp103p103.html In was would be the first dedicated thread on the subject, I asked how things should be tagged. Richard Welty didn't like putting the modifier in the ref tag, but implied that data consumers were using route relations' ref tags, which I don't believe is true: i like the idea of separating banners out too, but many current data consumers assume that they can just use the ref tag to label a route and be done with it. Craig Hinners again supported what he called network-classification-per-banner: This was discussed in the August 2011 thread, Use of ref-tag on state highways. At the time, a number of people seemed to be on board with the network-classification-per-banner scheme, as in: network=US:US:Alternate ref=1 NE2 disagreed: It's obvious to me that the banner is not part of the network. US 1 Alternate is part of the U.S. Highway system (US:US), not some mythical U.S. Highway Alternate system. It also makes the most sense to put it in the ref tag. Otherwise there's inconsistency between an alternate signed as US 1 Alternate and one signed as US 1A (with the suffix in the shield). In each case I'll also use the modifier tag (modifier=Alternate/A). Richard Weait also liked network-classification-per-banner: increasing specificity on the network tag like network=US:US:Alt follows the original intent of the network tag. It also offers the least surprise to naive consumers of the data. AJ Ashton also liked network-classification-per-banner: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: increasing specificity on the network tag like network=US:US:Alt follows the original intent of the network tag. It also offers the least surprise to naive consumers of the data. I would
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/14/2012 2:38 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: If you count out all the emails on the subject, there are probably more emails opposing the network-classification-per-banner approach, but if you count the people expressing opinions on the matter, network-classification-per-banner has a strong majority. If this is so, the wiki and data needs to reflect that the network tag is not a network tag. That's why I started the recent discussion about whether network should actually represent the shield design, and there was no consensus. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Foot paths can be tagged in multiple ways. Renderers and tools need to be able to handle them all. It's not the renderer's place to tell us how to tag. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-12 15:52 -0400]: On 4/12/2012 2:59 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: * Minh Nguyenm...@1ec5.org [2012-04-12 10:06 -0700]: There's an ALT I-75 that needs its own sequence file I wouldn't necessarily oppose a separate network tag in this case, since it's clearly not part of the Interstate Highway System. (The same would apply to business Interstates.) * Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-12 16:03 -0400]: Also I-270 Spur in Maryland, which *is* part of the Interstate Highway System and thus belongs in network=US:I First off, I still feel that there was a consensus last year on using the network tag for distinct network subsets as well as for mainline roads and you, despite being the only dissenter, continue to argue against something the rest of community more or less settled on. Secondly, I think this highlights a reason to use network subsets in the network tag: because it's a simpler rule to apply than deciding whether a variant route is different enough to deserve its own network value. You seem to have a clear idea about what constitutes a network from your perspective--Interstate 75 Alternate and Downtown Interstates do, but Interstate 270 Spur doesn't. I think there's a lot of grey area where people with different perspectives would disagree[0], especially mappers who just want to represent what they see on the signs where they live without arguing the minutiae of which road network a route is really a member of. In short, you seem to want to have the final say about what is or isn't a real network, but OpenStreetMap is a community effort and not only does the network tag can have distinct values for network subsets scheme appear to have broader community support, but it also seems to me to be the most generally applicable by people who in all likelihood will have different opinions about what *really* constitutes a distinct road network. [0] I feel, for instance, that I could make a convincing argument either way as to whether Texas's loop roads should count as their own network or should be part of the state's main network. Likewise for routes signed as US 1, US 1A, and US 1 Alternate. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- How do RPG characters manage to carry so much? Very deep pockets. -- MenTaLguY --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Fri, Apr 13, 2012 at 5:42 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: * Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-12 16:03 -0400]: Also I-270 Spur in Maryland, which *is* part of the Interstate Highway System and thus belongs in network=US:I First off, I still feel that there was a consensus last year on using the network tag for distinct network subsets as well as for mainline roads and you, despite being the only dissenter, continue to argue against something the rest of community more or less settled on. Secondly, I think this highlights a reason to use network subsets in the network tag: because it's a simpler rule to apply than deciding whether a variant route is different enough to deserve its own network value. You seem to have a clear idea about what constitutes a network from your perspective--Interstate 75 Alternate and Downtown Interstates do, but Interstate 270 Spur doesn't. I think there's a lot of grey area where people with different perspectives would disagree[0], especially mappers who just want to represent what they see on the signs where they live without arguing the minutiae of which road network a route is really a member of. In short, you seem to want to have the final say about what is or isn't a real network, but OpenStreetMap is a community effort and not only does the network tag can have distinct values for network subsets scheme appear to have broader community support, but it also seems to me to be the most generally applicable by people who in all likelihood will have different opinions about what *really* constitutes a distinct road network. Wait, what? I was under the impression that the banners as a network thing was proposed initially in this discussion, given that the modifier tag has been documented in the wiki for well over a year now. And it makes a lot more sense, since bannered routes aren't a different network. [0] I feel, for instance, that I could make a convincing argument either way as to whether Texas's loop roads should count as their own network or should be part of the state's main network. Texas considers itself to have multiple state networks (Texas, Park, Rec, NASA, Loop, Spur). What's not entirely obvious is if toll routes are their own network (like Kansas and Oklahoma) or merely a bannered route. Likewise for routes signed as US 1, US 1A, and US 1 Alternate. Those would be the same network, though US 1A and 1 Alternate may be the same route. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/13/2012 8:42 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: First off, I still feel that there was a consensus last year on using the network tag for distinct network subsets as well as for mainline roads and you, despite being the only dissenter, continue to argue against something the rest of community more or less settled on. Whether or not there was a consensus last year, it's clear that there is none at the present time. See the recent thread about the network tag. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Ngày 2012-04-11 4:23 PM, Phil! Gold viết: * Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-04 11:54 -0700]: More requests: in addition to its circular-shield state highway system, Kentucky also has an ad-hoc parkway network. At least some of them are tagged `network=US:KY:Parkway` with a shield URL in `symbol`. Since I've now got shields rendering larger at higher zoom levels, I made some shields for the Kentucky Parkways. They are indeed pretty unreadable until you get to about z17, but at that point you can mostly make out what they are (or you can also just read the name on the road...). At least there's something on the motorways so they don't just look naked. Even if the parkway shields are mostly illegible, they're still quite an improvement over Google Maps (which uses the parkways' unsigned 900x route numbers) and Bing and MapQuest (nothing other than the road name at higher zoom levels). Thanks for your attention to detail! We're putting the shield images in the public domain (well, we're putting them under a CC0 waiver, which amounts to the same thing semantically), so I don't think the Kentucky Unbridled image would be compatible with that. I just went with an italic font. (It's not like you can tell at these resolutions, anyway.) One way to simplify them would be to use the routes' two-letter abbreviations. NE2 suggested this for New York's parkways, too. I want to see how the current shields are received now that you can zoom in and see more detail on them, but using the routes' initials is certainly a possibility if no one likes their current incarnation. On second thought, some of the Kentucky parkways' abbreviations require a little guessing anyways, so maybe the spelled-out images are good enough. Someone who tries to navigate based on this map will say that blue and white sign with tiny text, which is exactly how they'll see it on guide signs. Adding to the mess, the AA Highway is a special case that I *think* belongs in `network=US:KY` as `ref=AA`. I've added that, too. The network=US:KY, ref=AA relation does not appear to include all of the ways with the name AA Highway (it looks like the relation ends somewhere around KY 2828). I'll get right to it. By the way, four-digit circle shields appear to have broken over the last day or two: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/cutouts/12/1081/1569.png -- Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: m...@1ec5.org; Blog: http://notes.1ec5.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-12 00:09 -0700]: Thanks for your attention to detail! You're welcome. :) By the way, four-digit circle shields appear to have broken over the last day or two. Indeed they were. It should be fixed now, pending a rerender. (A few days ago, I changed the shield generating mechanism from pregenerating every shield and every known cluster (in every possible orientation) and saving them in directories--to only pregenerating every individual shield (which is still almost 45,000 images), storing them in the database, and letting the database generate the clusters on demand. With the old system, we'd been cheating a little with the circle- and lozenge-style shields by generating two sets of images (one with circles for all numbers from 1 to , and one with circles for 1 to 99 and lozenges for 100 to ) and then symlinking states to those as appropriate. With the new setup, we have to generate all the shields for each state individually and I just didn't go high enough for Kentucky. I've now generated shields for Kentucky up to 3999, which should cover everything I see in the database. Wikipedia lists 9006 and 9008, but it looks like those are unsigned reference numbers for some of the parkways.) -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- You know you're really somebody in the software world when Richard Stallman complains about you having a gratuitous patent -- Source unknown --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com [2012-04-12 09:40 -0400]: You need to create shields up to at least in the 6000 range for Kentucky. The reason I'm saying this is that the have a 6000 series for small service roads. [snip] So, on the safe side for the KY routes, I would create shields up to at least 6299 so that when people get around to properly tagging the 6000 series, they will be rendered when necessary. Are there any roads in the 4000s or 5000s? If not, I can skip those and just do the range from 6000 to 6299. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- I think... I think it's in my basement... Let me go upstairs and check. -- Escher --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
There's an ALT I-75 that needs its own sequence file: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2118037 It'd look like this: http://roadfan.com/altn75c.JPG -- Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: m...@1ec5.org; Blog: http://notes.1ec5.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-12 10:06 -0700]: There's an ALT I-75 that needs its own sequence file I had no idea there were alternate Interstates. I added it under network=US:I:Alternate, ref=75. (Right now, it's rendering as regular I-75.) -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Hydrogen is a colorless, odorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people. -- Henry Hiebert --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/12/2012 2:59 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: * Minh Nguyenm...@1ec5.org [2012-04-12 10:06 -0700]: There's an ALT I-75 that needs its own sequence file I had no idea there were alternate Interstates. I added it under network=US:I:Alternate, ref=75. (Right now, it's rendering as regular I-75.) Sounds like a bug in the rendering. However, I wouldn't necessarily oppose a separate network tag in this case, since it's clearly not part of the Interstate Highway System. (The same would apply to business Interstates.) Michigan has some 'emergency' Interstates that are essentially detours, but are permanently signed: http://www.stopandgo.org/gallery/trafficsigns/Emergency_plaque.html There's also an I-278 Truck in New York City that avoids a piece of the Grand Central Parkway that's closed to large trucks: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2131889 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Thu, Apr 12, 2012 at 03:52:35PM -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 4/12/2012 2:59 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: * Minh Nguyenm...@1ec5.org [2012-04-12 10:06 -0700]: There's an ALT I-75 that needs its own sequence file I had no idea there were alternate Interstates. I added it under network=US:I:Alternate, ref=75. (Right now, it's rendering as regular I-75.) Sounds like a bug in the rendering. However, I wouldn't necessarily oppose a separate network tag in this case, since it's clearly not part of the Interstate Highway System. (The same would apply to business Interstates.) Michigan has some 'emergency' Interstates that are essentially detours, but are permanently signed: http://www.stopandgo.org/gallery/trafficsigns/Emergency_plaque.html Yeah, those are odd. What the description on that page fails to mention is that I-94 also passes by the Cook Nuclear Power Plant at Bridgman, so it's not just snow MDOT is worried about :-) -- Kristian M Zoerhoff ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/12/2012 3:52 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: There's also an I-278 Truck in New York City that avoids a piece of the Grand Central Parkway that's closed to large trucks: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2131889 Also I-270 Spur in Maryland, which *is* part of the Interstate Highway System and thus belongs in network=US:I: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1685926 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
I couldn't find any Kentucky State Routes that are in the 4000's and 5000's. So, you should be able to get away with just doing the 6000-series shields. As far as I can tell, currently, they only go up to KY-6334 (per http://bunkerblast.info/roads/sric.html). Now, not all of these 6000-series highways are posted, so, I would just create shields in the range of 6000-6500. I don't see them ever going over 6500 to be honest any time in the future. -- James Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:10:26 -0400 From: phi...@pobox.com To: talk-us@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering * James Mast rickmastfa...@hotmail.com [2012-04-12 09:40 -0400]: You need to create shields up to at least in the 6000 range for Kentucky. The reason I'm saying this is that the have a 6000 series for small service roads. [snip] So, on the safe side for the KY routes, I would create shields up to at least 6299 so that when people get around to properly tagging the 6000 series, they will be rendered when necessary. Are there any roads in the 4000s or 5000s? If not, I can skip those and just do the range from 6000 to 6299. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- I think... I think it's in my basement... Let me go upstairs and check. -- Escher --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com [2012-04-03 17:27 -0400]: Okay. If there aren't any strenuous objections from other Virginians on the list, I'll go with US:VA:Secondary for the secondary routes and won't render them if they're tagged US:VA. I've made this change. It'll take a little while for everything to rerender. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Who do you think you are, Zaphod Beebelbrox? Count the heads. --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-04 11:54 -0700]: More requests: in addition to its circular-shield state highway system, Kentucky also has an ad-hoc parkway network. At least some of them are tagged `network=US:KY:Parkway` with a shield URL in `symbol`. Since I've now got shields rendering larger at higher zoom levels, I made some shields for the Kentucky Parkways. They are indeed pretty unreadable until you get to about z17, but at that point you can mostly make out what they are (or you can also just read the name on the road...). At least there's something on the motorways so they don't just look naked. We're putting the shield images in the public domain (well, we're putting them under a CC0 waiver, which amounts to the same thing semantically), so I don't think the Kentucky Unbridled image would be compatible with that. I just went with an italic font. (It's not like you can tell at these resolutions, anyway.) One way to simplify them would be to use the routes' two-letter abbreviations. NE2 suggested this for New York's parkways, too. I want to see how the current shields are received now that you can zoom in and see more detail on them, but using the routes' initials is certainly a possibility if no one likes their current incarnation. Adding to the mess, the AA Highway is a special case that I *think* belongs in `network=US:KY` as `ref=AA`. I've added that, too. The network=US:KY, ref=AA relation does not appear to include all of the ways with the name AA Highway (it looks like the relation ends somewhere around KY 2828). -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance, but the illusion of knowledge. -- Daniel Boorstin --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/11/2012 7:23 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: We're putting the shield images in the public domain (well, we're putting them under a CC0 waiver, which amounts to the same thing semantically), so I don't think the Kentucky Unbridled image would be compatible with that. You might have a problem with some other toll roads, depending on whether the designs pass the threshold of originality (and whether any signs were posted sans copyright notice before 1989). (You also would have had a problem with the Trans-Canada Highway if you were doing this 5 years ago, but Crown copyright on the logo expired in 2009 at the latest.) Normal state route shields should all be public domain per the MUTCD introduction. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Is there a reason there are no shields or fallback ovals here on Nocatee Parkway? http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=30.12344lon=-81.39063layers=B0 The way is tagged ref=CR 210 and the relation is network=US:FL:CR:St. Johns ref=210. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-09 17:40 -0400]: Is there a reason there are no shields or fallback ovals here on Nocatee Parkway? http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=30.12344lon=-81.39063layers=B0 The way is tagged ref=CR 210 and the relation is network=US:FL:CR:St. Johns ref=210. The short answer is that it appears to be a rendering bug. The happy response is that I just finished a reworking of the shield image generation process[0] which appears to have fixed that bug as a side effect. County shield support is still pending[1], so it just gets the fallback shields for now. [0] The main benefit is that shield clusters are now generated on demand, rather than in a separate batch process. This should help keep the rendered map more up to date. [1] Including New Jersey county routes. I took them out because they didn't really fit into the code reworking I did. They'll return when I get the general-purpose county shield rendering working. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Your pet monster should be kept in a secure cage from which it cannot escape and into which you cannot accidentally stumble. -- Evil Overlord's Handbook, entry 28 --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
I think I would prefer horizontally arranged shields regardless of way direction. I think a variety of tagging schemes should be condensed into a unified scheme by data preprocessing, rather than handled by an overly-complex rendering stylesheet. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 08:56:17PM -0700, Minh Nguyen wrote: Ng?y 2012-04-05 5:46 AM, Phil! Gold vi?t: * Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com [2012-04-05 08:14 -0400]: * Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-04 11:54 -0700]: Looks like the Indiana Toll Road has no relation yet. That's fine. We don't have a shield for it yet either. :) Ah. And that's because my visit to Wikipedia left me unsure what the current design for the Toll Road's shield was. Any pointers would be appreciated. As of a few years ago, it was a green circle with two Indianas. [1] The orange logo was introduced in 2007, but I don't know if they've started to use it in signage or just the toll plazas. When I was last on the toll road in January, the guide signs were still the old green circles. I won't be back that way until June or July for another check, though. -- Kristian M Zoerhoff pgpQUeiPDoUKf.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
If you have any questions about real-world shields that aren't answered here, you can sign up for http://www.aaroads.com/forum/ and ask. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-04 22:26 -0400]: On 4/4/2012 10:23 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: There seems to be a problem here with US 17-92: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12lat=28.96029lon=-81.31906layers=B0 Change over to sign style and a bunch of shields appear. Er - upon rerendering, they don't appear in sign style anymore. That definitely says there's a problem now. I appear to have inadvertantly broken the rendering of shield clusters with one of my code changes last night. (One of the deawbacks of having the only public version of this also being my development environment.) It's fixed now[0], and I've scheduled that area for rerendering. I'll see if I can tell which other areas were rendered during the bad window and get them rerendered. [0] It's fixed with the cutout shields. Because of some changes I'm working on, I don't have the source images to fix the sign style at the moment, so it'll take me a little while to regenerate them. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else. -- Delenn (Babylon 5, Severed Dreams) --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-04 11:54 -0700]: More requests: in addition to its circular-shield state highway system, Kentucky also has an ad-hoc parkway network. [1] At least some of them are tagged `network=US:KY:Parkway` with a shield URL in `symbol`. The Kentucky Parkways are on our TODO list. I put them off initially because not all of them have public domain SVGs on Wikipedia, so we'll have to find appropriate reference images and make our own. Unfortunately, Kentucky has made these highways' shield designs more and more intricate over the years, most recently for the state's Unbridled Spirit tourism campaign, to the point that they're more appropriate as entire guide signs than shields. I know you prefer to keep true to the official signage, but the various shields are simply illegible at the current size. So I see. The old signs looked different enough that if you knew them you'd probably be able to tell them apart even if you couldn't read the tiny text. The new ones look like they're too similar for that. New York's parkways have a similar problem with legibility. One of my plans for dealing with them is to use larger shield images at high zoom levels. Kentucky's parkways would probably benefit from this approach as well. Adding to the mess, the AA Highway is a special case that I *think* belongs in `network=US:KY` as `ref=AA`. It'd be nice to get that shield on the map, too. I've made a note of that in the TODO. It won't render until we make images for its and the other parkways' shields. Finally, I just added `network=US:OH` and `symbol` to the Ohio Turnpike, à la Pennsylvania. And there it is: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=13lat=40.92904lon=-80.56185layers=B0 (It wasn't rendering before because the cluster script hadn't created a cluster for it yet. I forced that through.) There's no shield for I-76 because it's tagged as ref=I 76. Also, the rendering doesn't use the symbol URL. It's not bad to tag it, of course, since it's potentially useful information, but it won't affect our rendering one way or another. Looks like the Indiana Toll Road has no relation yet. That's fine. We don't have a shield for it yet either. :) -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- What can you tell me about Dracula? Dracula? Poncy bugger owes me £11, for one thing. -- Riley and Spike (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Buffy vs. Dracula) --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com [2012-04-05 08:14 -0400]: * Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-04 11:54 -0700]: Looks like the Indiana Toll Road has no relation yet. That's fine. We don't have a shield for it yet either. :) Ah. And that's because my visit to Wikipedia left me unsure what the current design for the Toll Road's shield was. Any pointers would be appreciated. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- joeyo msg nickserv identify m0rd0r joeyo doh! * SignOff joyeo: #kuro5hin (Killed (NickServ (GHOST command used by Dolgan))) -- seen on #kuro5hin --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/5/2012 8:14 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: New York's parkways have a similar problem with legibility. One of my plans for dealing with them is to use larger shield images at high zoom levels. The Long Island parkways are nice and legible: http://alpsroads.net/roads/ny/ocean/e3.jpg Most other parkways use large initial caps in a green state route shield: http://alpsroads.net/roads/ny/sawmill/begin.jpg It should be reasonable to simply use the abbreviation horizontally, like the occasional (erroneous) sign: http://alpsroads.net/roads/ny/taconic/tsp.jpg ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
I just fixed the ref tag on all of the I-26 relations (I 26 26), so, those should render correctly the next time any section of that route gets re-rendered. -- James ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Ngày 2012-04-05 5:46 AM, Phil! Gold viết: * Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com [2012-04-05 08:14 -0400]: * Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-04 11:54 -0700]: Looks like the Indiana Toll Road has no relation yet. That's fine. We don't have a shield for it yet either. :) Ah. And that's because my visit to Wikipedia left me unsure what the current design for the Toll Road's shield was. Any pointers would be appreciated. As of a few years ago, it was a green circle with two Indianas. [1] The orange logo was introduced in 2007, but I don't know if they've started to use it in signage or just the toll plazas. [1] http://www.billburmaster.com/rmsandw/indiana/misc/images/intoll90ina.jpg -- Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: m...@1ec5.org; Blog: http://notes.1ec5.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Ngày 2012-04-05 5:14 AM, Phil! Gold viết: * Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-04 11:54 -0700]: More requests: in addition to its circular-shield state highway system, Kentucky also has an ad-hoc parkway network. [1] At least some of them are tagged `network=US:KY:Parkway` with a shield URL in `symbol`. The Kentucky Parkways are on our TODO list. I put them off initially because not all of them have public domain SVGs on Wikipedia, so we'll have to find appropriate reference images and make our own. The shields incorporate Kentucky's trademarked (and presumably copyrighted) Unbridged Spirit logo. You can get a vector version from the state's website: http://kentucky.gov/pages/unbridledspirit.aspx Otherwise, I'd suggest just using standard italic text. Adding to the mess, the AA Highway is a special case that I *think* belongs in `network=US:KY` as `ref=AA`. It'd be nice to get that shield on the map, too. I've made a note of that in the TODO. It won't render until we make images for its and the other parkways' shields. Thankfully, this one didn't get rebranded: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a8/AA_Highway_Shield.svg -- Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: m...@1ec5.org; Blog: http://notes.1ec5.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Richard Weait rich...@weait.com [2012-04-04 01:09 -0400]: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: * Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 10:21 -0400]: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.13887lon=-80.34525layers=B0 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.19653lon=-80.22878layers=B0 Try those URLs again Wow. Vertical pairs. Looks nice, and switches back to horizontal as the line orientation changes. :-) I stayed up way too late last night. Try visiting those URLs again. (Once again, most of the map will rerender after you've looked at it so the way to see the changes in different areas is to look at them once then come back as much as a half hour later.) Other places that I know are rerendered include these: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.27562lon=-79.93635layers=B0 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=13lat=40.12983lon=-74.71446layers=B0 -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- ps axh -o%p | xargs perl -e '`kill -9 $ARGV[rand @ARGV]`' --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: I stayed up way too late last night. Try visiting those URLs again. (Once again, most of the map will rerender after you've looked at it so the way to see the changes in different areas is to look at them once then come back as much as a half hour later.) Other places that I know are rerendered include these: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.27562lon=-79.93635layers=B0 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=13lat=40.12983lon=-74.71446layers=B0 Amazing, this looks fantastic! Can't wait to see this as the official map of OSM US. Is this something that could be used in a Carto stylesheet, or does it use special syntax only supported by XML? I know it's not really relevant to this thread, but since you have a separate stylesheet from the standard OSM one, maybe you could reduce the prominence of standard highway labels on residential/unclassified highways: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=38.78332lon=-77.30564layers=B0 https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4183 -Josh ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/2/2012 11:35 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: For things like Florida's toll roads, we currently treat that as a separate network, so a route relation tagged as network=US:FL:Toll, ref=528 would get the toll shield. I've done this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/11177509 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-04 10:41 -0400]: On 4/2/2012 11:35 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: For things like Florida's toll roads, we currently treat that as a separate network, so a route relation tagged as network=US:FL:Toll, ref=528 would get the toll shield. I've done this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/11177509 The server's a bit overloaded at the moment, so already-rendered tiles might take a while to rerender and show the shields, but new renderings of not-yet-present tiles are given priority, so I was able to get some fresh tiles at zoom 15: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=28.4117lon=-80.82026layers=B0 -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- He won't be able to summon a demon THAT quick... -- Famous Last Words, #879 --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/4/2012 11:49 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: * Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-04 10:41 -0400]: On 4/2/2012 11:35 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: For things like Florida's toll roads, we currently treat that as a separate network, so a route relation tagged as network=US:FL:Toll, ref=528 would get the toll shield. I've done this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/11177509 The server's a bit overloaded at the moment, so already-rendered tiles might take a while to rerender and show the shields, but new renderings of not-yet-present tiles are given priority, so I was able to get some fresh tiles at zoom 15: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=28.4117lon=-80.82026layers=B0 Just noticed it in the Orlando area. Cheers. (By the way, if it wasn't clear, you've done some good work here.) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com [2012-04-04 08:55 -0400]:
Is this something that could be used in a Carto stylesheet, or does it
use special syntax only supported by XML?
I'm not sure, because I don't really know Carto. Most of the magic comes
from two places: first, there are PostgreSQL functions that take a way ID
and return a string that gives the path to the shield for that way;
second, there's the path expression syntax added to Mapnik2 that lets you
use database fields in image filenames. If you can represent both of
those in Carto, you don't need to touch an XML stylesheet.
Just for reference, here's a relevant extract from the XML we're using:
Style name=roads-text-ref
Rule
Filter[highway] = 'motorway' and [route_shield] lt;gt;
''/Filter
maxscale_zoom13;
minscale_zoom18;
ShieldSymbolizer file=shields;/[route_shield].png
minimum-distance=30 no-text=true placement=line spacing=640
fontset-name=book-fonts size=10 fill=whitenull/ShieldSymbolizer
/Rule
!-- ... --
/Style
Layer name=roads-text-ref status=on srs=osm2pgsql_projection;
StyleNameroads-text-ref/StyleName
Datasource
Parameter name=table
(SELECT way, highway, aeroway, ref, char_length(ref) as length,
CASE WHEN bridge IN ('yes','true','1') THEN 'yes'::text
ELSE bridge END AS bridge,
route_shield(osm_id) route_shield
FROM prefix;_line
WHERE (highway IS NOT NULL OR aeroway IS NOT NULL)
AND ((ref IS NOT NULL AND char_length(ref) BETWEEN 1 AND
8) OR
route_refs(osm_id) IS NOT NULL)
) AS roads
/Parameter
datasource-settings;
/Datasource
/Layer
I know it's not really relevant to this thread, but since you have a
separate stylesheet from the standard OSM one, maybe you could reduce
the prominence of standard highway labels on residential/unclassified
highways:
http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=38.78332lon=-77.30564layers=B0
https://trac.openstreetmap.org/ticket/4183
Ooof. I'm trying to limit the stylesheet changes to just what's needed to
put our shields on properly, but I can probably tweak the font settings on
those a little. They do kind of need it.
--
...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/
PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2
--- --
Like the ski resort full of girls hunting for husbands and husbands
hunting for girls, the situation is not as symmetrical as it might seem.
-- Alan MacKay
--- --
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Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-04 11:51 -0400]: (By the way, if it wasn't clear, you've done some good work here.) Thank you. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- There's a frood who really knows where his towel is. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Ngày 2012-04-02 5:25 AM, Phil! Gold viết: I'm not an expert on every state, so I'm particularly interested in whether things look good to the natives of each state and, if not, what could make them look better. More requests: in addition to its circular-shield state highway system, Kentucky also has an ad-hoc parkway network. [1] At least some of them are tagged `network=US:KY:Parkway` with a shield URL in `symbol`. Unfortunately, Kentucky has made these highways' shield designs more and more intricate over the years, most recently for the state's Unbridled Spirit tourism campaign, to the point that they're more appropriate as entire guide signs than shields. I know you prefer to keep true to the official signage, but the various shields are simply illegible at the current size. One way to simplify them would be to use the routes' two-letter abbreviations. [2] At least some of the abbreviations (WK, BG) do appear in everyday usage because old shields once used them. Adding to the mess, the AA Highway is a special case that I *think* belongs in `network=US:KY` as `ref=AA` (but correct me if I'm wrong, NE2). [3] It'd be nice to get that shield on the map, too. Finally, I just added `network=US:OH` and `symbol` to the Ohio Turnpike, à la Pennsylvania. [4] Looks like the Indiana Toll Road has no relation yet. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Kentucky#Kentucky_parkways [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Parkways_and_named_roads_in_Kentucky#List_by_designation [3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/409222 [4] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1661720 -- Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: m...@1ec5.org; Blog: http://notes.1ec5.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 5:55 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 8:08 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: I stayed up way too late last night. Try visiting those URLs again. (Once again, most of the map will rerender after you've looked at it so the way to see the changes in different areas is to look at them once then come back as much as a half hour later.) Other places that I know are rerendered include these: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.27562lon=-79.93635layers=B0 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=13lat=40.12983lon=-74.71446layers=B0 Amazing, this looks fantastic! Can't wait to see this as the official map of OSM US. Given that trailblazers vary country-to-country, there's no reason this couldn't be applicable worldwide. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
There seems to be a problem here with US 17-92: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12lat=28.96029lon=-81.31906layers=B0 Change over to sign style and a bunch of shields appear. Example tiles (to avoid loading the whole thing): http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/cutouts/12/1122/1704.png http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/shields/12/1122/1704.png ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/4/2012 10:23 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: There seems to be a problem here with US 17-92: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12lat=28.96029lon=-81.31906layers=B0 Change over to sign style and a bunch of shields appear. Example tiles (to avoid loading the whole thing): http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/cutouts/12/1122/1704.png http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/shields/12/1122/1704.png Er - upon rerendering, they don't appear in sign style anymore. That definitely says there's a problem now. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Posting a cc of this to talk-us in case others can't download data in while OSM is in read-only mode: try THIS! Wbat version of JOSM are you using? I'm having no problem using that plugin in v5159. Ah, thank you so much, James. I was using 5088, upgrading to 5159 did it. Dang, that's a fast download! Now I really mean it: So awesome. I don't know how widely known using mirrored_download plugin is, but this is exactly what I meant when I said stay communicative. Wiki: good. Latest version: good. Talking to each other on talk-us: good. Peace and thanks yet again! SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Ngày 2012-04-02 5:25 AM, Phil! Gold viết: There are actually two shield styles we have. There's the cutout-style that you see by default and another style you can switch to that more closely resembles the roadside reassurance signs for the routes. The cutouts will probably load faster--more of them have been rendered already--but please take a look at the other one, too; I'd like to know which one people prefer. Thank you for using cutout-style shields. They look great! I'm not an expert on every state, so I'm particularly interested in whether things look good to the natives of each state and, if not, what could make them look better. Displaying concurrent shields in bunches is certainly an improvement over all the maps that just pick one shield to display, and they look like reassurance sign assemblies to boot. But it's still strange to see shields hanging off either side of a north-south stretch of road. [1] I'd prefer to see the shields strung out along the concurrency, with no spacing between each shield. That would be especially helpful where the concurrency's shields happen to appear near a junction. Google Maps does that, but they space the shields apart somewhat. Better yet, two routes of the same network could share a vertically stretched shield, like on printed maps. So US 25/42 would look like this, if you'll pardon the crude ASCII art: _vv_ )25( ( 42 ) \/ Ohio's and Kentucky's shields look perfect. How about replacing the words INDIANA and ILLINOIS with slightly larger I N and I L for readability? [2] [1] http://elrond.aperiodic.net/mtiles/cutouts/15/8690/12512.png [2] http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=38.68386lon=-87.53913layers=B0 -- Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: m...@1ec5.org; Blog: http://notes.1ec5.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* CrystalWalrein closed...@hotmail.com [2012-04-02 15:45 -0700]: For areas in New Jersey, when I look at this rendering, I get county shields for all 500-series roads, but no shields are shown for 600-series roads anywhere. The formatting for county route relations in New Jersey is 'network=US:NJ:[county name]' for all county routes that are not part of the statewide system (for which 'network=US:NJ:CR' is used). This is a known problem and more or less falls under we're not really doing county roads yet. We render the pentagon for routes with the network US:NJ:CR, but there's no rendering yet for US:NJ:county. That's partly because I haven't sorted through the counties to separate out the ones that don't use the blue pentagon, and partly because handling a lot of differently-named but having-very-similar-shields networks would be kind of a pain with our current setup, so I need to write some more code to help with that. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- I think... I think it's in my basement... Let me go upstairs and check. -- Escher --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
stevea wrote: Most specific shields in California look good and familiar, as you make correct distinctions between Interstates and state routes. However, county routes (designated by a regional letter and a number, such as S 21) are not rendered with proper shields at all. This is a critical component for many areas. You probably should know that I've been adding the S21 tags to Old Highway 101. I could add a route relation for it if needed. And oddly, in the San Diego area, CA 209 and CA 75 (Point Loma and Coronado, respectively) don't render with your newer shields, but the old style Mapnik shields. Even in read only mode I am unable coax JOSM to read only so I can't see what these (S 21, CA 209 and CA 75) tags are. It may be that they are tagged in a wrong or odd way, it may be that you aren't catching a certain case of things, I'm not sure. Rosecrans is technically no longer a state highway, as CA 209 was decommissioned in 2003. I could take another look at 75 when the database is editable again. PS Shouldn't Palomar Airport Road be S12? -Alexander ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-03 02:19 -0700]: Displaying concurrent shields in bunches is certainly an improvement over all the maps that just pick one shield to display, and they look like reassurance sign assemblies to boot. But it's still strange to see shields hanging off either side of a north-south stretch of road. [1] How does this compare? http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/cincinnati.png I opted to string three shields out in a row because I think that fits into the rendering better; most text is horizontal, so there's less chance for conflicts, plus three-shield reassurance signs almost always have them in a single row. I could probably be convinced to do it differently if enough people prefer the two-row rendering. I'd prefer to see the shields strung out along the concurrency, with no spacing between each shield. That would be especially helpful where the concurrency's shields happen to appear near a junction. Google Maps does that, but they space the shields apart somewhat. This is something that would probably look nice, but is difficult (possibly impossible) to do in Mapnik. I'll see what I can do and how it looks on the map. Better yet, two routes of the same network could share a vertically stretched shield, like on printed maps. I'm resistant to this idea. Part of our goal for this rendering was to make the map look like what's actually on the road signs. With only a couple exceptions that I know of[0], concurrencies are always signed with separate sheilds for each route. Ohio's and Kentucky's shields look perfect. How about replacing the words INDIANA and ILLINOIS with slightly larger I N and I L for readability? [2] [2] http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=38.68386lon=-87.53913layers=B0 Hm. Again, I'd prefer to match the reference signs as much as possible and leave it up to context to distinguish similar signs. (Maine and Massachusetts are close neighbors, for example, and have identical plain rectangular shields. And quite a few states use plain circular shields.) I did increase the size of the text on those two states. The 'L's in Illinois are a little more obvious now, though Indiana is still completely unreadable. I'll think about just putting the initials in (though it still might be a challenge to make it readable). [0] The US 1/US 9 concurrency in New Jersey is signed as US 1-9, and the MD 2/MD 4 concurrency in Maryland is signed as MD 2-4. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- The Alchemist's Guild is opposite the Gambler's Guild. Usually. Sometimes it's above it, or below it, or falling in bits around it. -- _Men at Arms_, Terry Pratchett --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-02 14:34 -0400]: A total of *two* relations have network=US:US:Business, vs. 707 with network=US:US and modifier=Business. Yes, I know I had major influence in that, but that was months ago. There's also one US:OR:Business (which also has modifier=Business), one US:CA:BUSINESS, and one US:I:BUSINESS:SPUR (which surprised me; I wasn't expecting to see that in the database). Even though the last time this was discussed in detail a couple people said they preferred using US:US:BUS, there are no instances of that in the current database. It's possible they used to exist but have been since changed, but I can't tell that one way or the other. That notwithstanding, I've gone back and looked through all the past discussions about route relation networks that I can find and it seems that almost everyone who expresses a preference prefers to view routes with modifiers as subsets of the main network and put the modifier in the network tag. With my data consumer hat on, I'm inclined to agree: although there are drawbacks to both approaches, I feel there are fewer inherent in the network-with-modifiers way. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Volt egy brilló's, a csuszbugó Gimbelt és gált távlengibe, Minden mimicre purrogó, Mómája ingibe. -- Lewis Carroll, Jabberwocky --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: Here's something that might be a diversion while you wait for the database to allow editing again. Richard Weait and I have been working on a rendering that uses route relations to make individual shields that reflect what each state uses. I've got a working prototype, and I'd like to get some feedback on it. The server is a rather slow one sitting at my place behind a slow-ish DSL connection, which means that it'll probably range from a little slow to very slow indeed. I'm working on getting some better hosting for it. If you're not yet deterred, I invite you to look at http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/ . The code and source files are at https://launchpad.net/osm-shields . Awesome! I definitely think this is the sort of thing that will bring in more North American mappers by making the map seem more familiar. I took a look around Blacksburg and just noted a couple of things (once all the pink frowny-faces went away): - Secondaries (network US:VA:secondary) don't seem to be rendering at all, and the fallback shields aren't showing up even where there are ref tags (just seems to be using Mapnik style). Simple rule for VA: if the ref = 600, or it has a letter in it, it's a secondary (except 785 and 895, which are signed primary). 1 = 599 are primary. - The US 460 business route doesn't seem to be getting shields. URL for the area: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.19755lon=-80.40427layers=B0 Also, a more general comment - I think concurrencies might look better stacked vertically in some circumstances... you'd have to have some logic about the underlying direction of the way to make that happen, but vertical stacking would look nicer on N-S ways I think. Compare: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.13887lon=-80.34525layers=B0 and http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.19653lon=-80.22878layers=B0 Other oddities: I-26 in TN seems to be missing: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=11lat=36.35713lon=-82.42503layers=B0 (It also seems to be missing in NC... maybe the relation got accidentally nuked? I can't even get the data view at OSM to work at the moment...) Similarly, while the 4-way US multiplex over the old bridge in Memphis is rendered fine, I-55 seems to be missing in both AR and TN (but is OK in MS): http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=35.1354lon=-90.07954layers=B0 Looks great so far otherwise - keep up the good work! Chris ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 4:26 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: * CrystalWalrein closed...@hotmail.com [2012-04-02 15:45 -0700]: For areas in New Jersey, when I look at this rendering, I get county shields for all 500-series roads, but no shields are shown for 600-series roads anywhere. The formatting for county route relations in New Jersey is 'network=US:NJ:[county name]' for all county routes that are not part of the statewide system (for which 'network=US:NJ:CR' is used). This is a known problem and more or less falls under we're not really doing county roads yet. We render the pentagon for routes with the network US:NJ:CR, but there's no rendering yet for US:NJ:county. That's partly because I haven't sorted through the counties to separate out the ones that don't use the blue pentagon, and partly because handling a lot of differently-named but having-very-similar-shields networks would be kind of a pain with our current setup, so I need to write some more code to help with that. Also curious how some of the more interesting edge cases work out, such as Missouri Secondary State Highways, Oregon/Washington/Oklahoma State Tour Routes, Oklahoma/Kansas Turnpike, or the 7 state highway networks in Texas that aren't Texas... ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:40 AM, Alexander Jones happy5...@gmail.com wrote: And oddly, in the San Diego area, CA 209 and CA 75 (Point Loma and Coronado, respectively) don't render with your newer shields, but the old style Mapnik shields. Even in read only mode I am unable coax JOSM to read only so I can't see what these (S 21, CA 209 and CA 75) tags are. It may be that they are tagged in a wrong or odd way, it may be that you aren't catching a certain case of things, I'm not sure. Rosecrans is technically no longer a state highway, as CA 209 was decommissioned in 2003. I could take another look at 75 when the database is editable again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but only routes with relations render with shields, right? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/3/2012 10:21 AM, Chris Lawrence wrote: - Secondaries (network US:VA:secondary) don't seem to be rendering at all, and the fallback shields aren't showing up even where there are ref tags (just seems to be using Mapnik style). Simple rule for VA: if the ref= 600, or it has a letter in it, it's a secondary (except 785 and 895, which are signed primary). 1= 599 are primary. 785 isn't signed at all. The 895 near Richmond is primary, but there are also secondary 895s. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tuesday, April 03, 2012 08:17:16 AM Phil! Gold wrote: * Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-03 02:19 -0700]: I'd prefer to see the shields strung out along the concurrency, with no spacing between each shield. That would be especially helpful where the concurrency's shields happen to appear near a junction. Google Maps does that, but they space the shields apart somewhat. This is something that would probably look nice, but is difficult (possibly impossible) to do in Mapnik. I'll see what I can do and how it looks on the map. I don't know if they use Mapnik, but I like the way Stamen places their shields along concurrencies. e.g. http://maps.stamen.com/terrain/#15/39.7542/-86.0373 Your current work is awesome! ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org [2012-04-03 07:21 -0700]: Also curious how some of the more interesting edge cases work out, such as Missouri Secondary State Highways Someone seems to have made route relations for a lot of these already, with a network of US:MO:Supplemental, so that's what I chose to key off of. Oregon/Washington/Oklahoma State Tour Routes Not currently supported. Can you point me at some information about these? Oklahoma/Kansas Turnpike There's support for the Kansas Turnpike, but it's not rendered because the route relation doesn't have a network on it. (I don't trust every named highway with its own shield to have a globally unique name, so I key off the network, which in most cases I expect to be the same as the main state network.) I'll have to add the Chikasaw Turnpike; I don't see any information about shields for the other Oklahoma turnpikes on Wikipedia. or the 7 state highway networks in Texas that aren't Texas... Mostly I've followed the networks already in use: US:TX, US:TX:LOOP, US:TX:SPUR, US:TX:FM, US:TX:RM, US:TX:FM:Business, US:TX:NASA, US:TX:PR, some others. A lot of those still don't render because they duplicate the subnetwork in the ref tag, so Loop 5 (picking an arbitrary number) might be represented as network=US:TX:LOOP, ref=5 Loop. Once the ref is changed to a plain 5, it would be rendered properly. I chose to treat the Old San Antonio Road as a member of the US:TX network with a ref of OSR. I can't remember if it renders that way at the moment. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Meow translates as, Come here. I want to ignore you. --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org [2012-04-03 07:23 -0700]: On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 3:40 AM, Alexander Jones happy5...@gmail.com wrote: Rosecrans is technically no longer a state highway, as CA 209 was decommissioned in 2003. I could take another look at 75 when the database is editable again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but only routes with relations render with shields, right? Right. If a way has a ref tag but is not in a route relation, it gets an old-style shield that looks the same as it would be on the main OSM rendering. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Have you never thought as you read that months may lie between any pair of words? -- Gene Wolfe --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Also curious how some of the more interesting edge cases work out, such as Missouri Secondary State Highways, Oregon/Washington/Oklahoma State Tour Routes, Oklahoma/Kansas Turnpike, or the 7 state highway networks in Texas that aren't Texas... The edge cases are an opportunity for we, as a community, to get it right. There are many many more signed routes that will be interesting to one or more groups, as long as we have a reasonable way to tag them. I hope that there will be a way to request / provide icons for specialty routes so that those with interest and with expertise can provide patches. As it stands now, Phil has done a great job of making this work. The starting case of I + US is fantastic. Makes me think I should get some more of the Canadian shields sorted out. :-) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/3/2012 10:54 AM, James Umbanhowar wrote: I don't know if they use Mapnik, but I like the way Stamen places their shields along concurrencies. e.g. http://maps.stamen.com/terrain/#15/39.7542/-86.0373 The problem with this one is that only one shield shows up when the two shields would be drawn on top of each other. Putting all the shields right next to each other avoids this. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/3/2012 11:19 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: A lot of those still don't render because they duplicate the subnetwork in the ref tag, so Loop 5 (picking an arbitrary number) might be represented as network=US:TX:LOOP, ref=5 Loop. Once the ref is changed to a plain 5, it would be rendered properly. You mean *if* the ref is changed. Perhaps the locals want to keep the Loop in the ref tag. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:19 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: * Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org [2012-04-03 07:21 -0700]: Also curious how some of the more interesting edge cases work out, such as Missouri Secondary State Highways Someone seems to have made route relations for a lot of these already, with a network of US:MO:Supplemental, so that's what I chose to key off of. Oregon/Washington/Oklahoma State Tour Routes Not currently supported. Can you point me at some information about these? I don't think there's been a real effort to tag these yet, the four in Oregon I'm aware of are the Lewis Clark Trail, Oregon Trail, California (aka Applegate) Trail and the Oregon Outback Route. Each of the first three seem to use their own trailblazers and may be interstate in scope. The latter and newer routes use extremely large trailblazers. http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/Oregon-Outback-Sign.jpg Oklahoma/Kansas Turnpike There's support for the Kansas Turnpike, but it's not rendered because the route relation doesn't have a network on it. (I don't trust every named highway with its own shield to have a globally unique name, so I key off the network, which in most cases I expect to be the same as the main state network.) I'll have to add the Chikasaw Turnpike; I don't see any information about shields for the other Oklahoma turnpikes on Wikipedia. Kansas Turnpike (there's only one) uses the KTA shield universally, often in conjunction with, but usually in absence of, I 35 signage. Oklahoma (like Kansas) has a toll and non-toll highway network, and they don't overlap (with the exception of I 44, which is dual signed with the Turner Turnpike and Rogers Turnpike; guide signs leaving the Turner Turnpike instruct drivers to take I 44 to the Rogers Turnpike to Joplin more or less treating I 44 as nonexistent on the turnpike lengths, despite being dual signed!). All of Oklahoma's turnpikes use identical trailblazers, the only part that changes is the name on the top half of the roundel (in this case, Indian Nations). http://www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=OK20060731 or the 7 state highway networks in Texas that aren't Texas... Mostly I've followed the networks already in use: US:TX, US:TX:LOOP, US:TX:SPUR, US:TX:FM, US:TX:RM, US:TX:FM:Business, US:TX:NASA, US:TX:PR, some others. A lot of those still don't render because they duplicate the subnetwork in the ref tag, so Loop 5 (picking an arbitrary number) might be represented as network=US:TX:LOOP, ref=5 Loop. Once the ref is changed to a plain 5, it would be rendered properly. FM and RM should render identically (obviously since they're actually the same network), LOOP, SPUR, NASA, Texas I all recognize. I don't see TOLL or REC, and no idea what PR is... Cool on handling such a complex network well. I chose to treat the Old San Antonio Road as a member of the US:TX network with a ref of OSR. I can't remember if it renders that way at the moment. I would be inclined to do the same (despite the nonstandard reference before network signs that that route uses). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:40 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: The edge cases are an opportunity for we, as a community, to get it right. There are many many more signed routes that will be interesting to one or more groups, as long as we have a reasonable way to tag them. That just reminded me... Chicago and Tulsa have city routes. And these edge cases (city routes and state secondary/supplemental routes, especially oddball (Oregon) and extreme (Texas) cases) make for great prepwork to render cycleway network trailblazers (which tend towards obscenely diverse in much of the US). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/3/2012 11:19 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: A lot of those still don't render because they duplicate the subnetwork in the ref tag, so Loop 5 (picking an arbitrary number) might be represented as network=US:TX:LOOP, ref=5 Loop. Once the ref is changed to a plain 5, it would be rendered properly. You mean *if* the ref is changed. Perhaps the locals want to keep the Loop in the ref tag. This would be inconsistent with the rest of the country, within it's own state, and the documentation if it's not changed. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/3/2012 11:57 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: FM and RM should render identically (obviously since they're actually the same network) Er no. On roadside assemblies the text FARM ROAD and RANCH ROAD appears, and on green guide signs the shields have FM or RM up top. http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/sfb/images/3-1_Types_Route_Sign_Mount.JPG ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 10:21 -0400]: - Secondaries (network US:VA:secondary) don't seem to be rendering at all, and the fallback shields aren't showing up even where there are ref tags (just seems to be using Mapnik style). Simple rule for VA: if the ref = 600, or it has a letter in it, it's a secondary (except 785 and 895, which are signed primary). 1 = 599 are primary. When we looked at the database, we saw some secondary routes tagged as US:VA and some as US:VA:Secondary. Since there didn't seem to be any overlap in the numbering, we chose to only look for the US:VA network and render either a primary or secondary shield based on the number. I assume you live in Virginia. What do you, as a resident, think of this rendering choice? Separately, Mapnik ought to be using the fallback shields when it doesn't place one of our shields. It might be getting confused by the presence of the US:VA:secondary route even though there aren't any shields for it. I'll look into it. - The US 460 business route doesn't seem to be getting shields. We're looking for US Business routes under a network of US:US:Business. It probably isn't tagged that way. Once it is, it'll show up. Also, a more general comment - I think concurrencies might look better stacked vertically in some circumstances... you'd have to have some logic about the underlying direction of the way to make that happen, but vertical stacking would look nicer on N-S ways I think. Someone else had a similar comment. I'm pondering ways of matching the major axis of the shield clustering to the general direction of the way. I don't think I can get this perfect in all circumstances: without some alteration to mapnik's code, I think the best I can do is to get the overall orientation of a way in its entirety. That will be good enough for a lot of cases, but if a way has a north-south section, then a curve, then an east-west section, it's probably going to come out with a diagonal orientation. I'm going to do some test renderings and see how good I can make it look. I-26 in TN seems to be missing: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=11lat=36.35713lon=-82.42503layers=B0 The route relation has I 26 in the ref tag. Once it's change to just 26, it'll render properly (although it'll take until the next time we run the cluster generating script after that change before it'll show up in concurrencies). Similarly, while the 4-way US multiplex over the old bridge in Memphis is rendered fine, I-55 seems to be missing in both AR and TN (but is OK in MS): http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=35.1354lon=-90.07954layers=B0 It's the same thing. The route relation for I-55 has I 55 in the ref tag. Looks great so far otherwise - keep up the good work! Thanks! -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- If you employ people as advisors, listen to their advice. -- Evil Overlord's Handbook, entry 17 --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/3/2012 11:59 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: That just reminded me... Chicago and Tulsa have city routes. I'm not aware of any such routes in Chicago. Are you thinking of the address numbers that are prominently posted on signs? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/3/2012 12:06 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: We're looking for US Business routes under a network of US:US:Business. It probably isn't tagged that way. Once it is, it'll show up. Again, you mean if, not once. It's not the job of renderers to force a choice between equally-valid existing tagging choices. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 10:54 AM, James Umbanhowar jumba...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, April 03, 2012 08:17:16 AM Phil! Gold wrote: * Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-03 02:19 -0700]: I'd prefer to see the shields strung out along the concurrency, with no spacing between each shield. That would be especially helpful where the concurrency's shields happen to appear near a junction. Google Maps does that, but they space the shields apart somewhat. This is something that would probably look nice, but is difficult (possibly impossible) to do in Mapnik. I'll see what I can do and how it looks on the map. I don't know if they use Mapnik, but I like the way Stamen places their shields along concurrencies. e.g. http://maps.stamen.com/terrain/#15/39.7542/-86.0373 I don't know if it is Mapnik, but it behaves similarly. Look to the west a bit from your link. It appears that shields are not strictly ordered, so some can go missing from the display. For example, the Interstate shields are less-frequent at the link below. Zoom in another layer and the interstate shields are more-frequent, at the expense of the others. http://maps.stamen.com/terrain/#14/39.6996/-86.1647 That's cool, and it's nice that we have the choice now between not-exactly-random-linear, or all-in-one-clustered. I can imagine other options in future like: - only render the most-important shield, but have it popup with the cluster on hover - make clusters smaller, and magnify on hover - other cooler ideas that you come up with Mapnik metawriters should make this possible right now if somebody wants to write a little code to do it. :-) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Ngày 2012-04-03 5:17 AM, Phil! Gold viết: * Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-03 02:19 -0700]: Displaying concurrent shields in bunches is certainly an improvement over all the maps that just pick one shield to display, and they look like reassurance sign assemblies to boot. But it's still strange to see shields hanging off either side of a north-south stretch of road. [1] How does this compare? http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/cincinnati.png I opted to string three shields out in a row because I think that fits into the rendering better; most text is horizontal, so there's less chance for conflicts, plus three-shield reassurance signs almost always have them in a single row. I could probably be convinced to do it differently if enough people prefer the two-row rendering. I'd prefer to see the shields strung out along the concurrency, with no spacing between each shield. That would be especially helpful where the concurrency's shields happen to appear near a junction. Google Maps does that, but they space the shields apart somewhat. This is something that would probably look nice, but is difficult (possibly impossible) to do in Mapnik. I'll see what I can do and how it looks on the map. The two-row option looks better to me. But you're right, it'd probably lead to fewer shields on the map in urban areas. I like what Stamen did in their Terrain map. [1] Their shield placement appears to be powered by Skeletron somehow. [2] Better yet, two routes of the same network could share a vertically stretched shield, like on printed maps. I'm resistant to this idea. Part of our goal for this rendering was to make the map look like what's actually on the road signs. With only a couple exceptions that I know of[0], concurrencies are always signed with separate sheilds for each route. [0] The US 1/US 9 concurrency in New Jersey is signed as US 1-9, and the MD 2/MD 4 concurrency in Maryland is signed as MD 2-4. True, I just brought up the idea in case map real estate becomes an issue with larger sign assemblies. Ohio's and Kentucky's shields look perfect. How about replacing the words INDIANA and ILLINOIS with slightly larger I N and I L for readability? [2] [2] http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=15lat=38.68386lon=-87.53913layers=B0 Hm. Again, I'd prefer to match the reference signs as much as possible and leave it up to context to distinguish similar signs. (Maine and Massachusetts are close neighbors, for example, and have identical plain rectangular shields. And quite a few states use plain circular shields.) I did increase the size of the text on those two states. The 'L's in Illinois are a little more obvious now, though Indiana is still completely unreadable. I'll think about just putting the initials in (though it still might be a challenge to make it readable). INDIANA and possibly others would be more legible in a wider font. There's still space on either side to accommodate the text. If the FHWA fonts don't work out, you could always resort to a bitmap font. [3] The FHWA fonts' distinguishing features aren't discernible at that size anyways. There isn't anything we can do about neighboring states that use exactly the same shield, but at least that problem also exists on the ground. They asked for it! :-) [1] https://github.com/Citytracking/Terrain/ [2] https://github.com/migurski/Skeletron/ [3] http://speckyboy.com/2009/06/19/34-free-and-elegant-truetype-mini-pixel-fonts/ -- Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org AIM: trycom2000; Jabber: m...@1ec5.org; Blog: http://notes.1ec5.org/ ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org [2012-04-03 08:57 -0700]: Oregon/Washington/Oklahoma State Tour Routes Not currently supported. Can you point me at some information about these? I don't think there's been a real effort to tag these yet, the four in Oregon I'm aware of are the Lewis Clark Trail, Oregon Trail, California (aka Applegate) Trail and the Oregon Outback Route. Each of the first three seem to use their own trailblazers and may be interstate in scope. The latter and newer routes use extremely large trailblazers. http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/wysiwyg/image/Oregon-Outback-Sign.jpg I've added those to the TODO list. I'll have to see if I can find example images for most of them, and the Oregon Outback Route's image may prove to be too much for my meager artistic ability. (I've mostly been working off of public domain images from Wikipedia.) All of Oklahoma's turnpikes use identical trailblazers, the only part that changes is the name on the top half of the roundel (in this case, Indian Nations). http://www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=OK20060731 Ah, okay. I'll set them up just like other named-but-not-publically-numbered routes like the New Jersey Turnpike and look for network US:OK, no ref, and whetever their name is. FM and RM should render identically (obviously since they're actually the same network), LOOP, SPUR, NASA, Texas I all recognize. I don't see TOLL or REC, and no idea what PR is... As NE2 said, FM and RM differ in the text on the image, though the rendered shields are too small to be able to tell. We do have US:TX:Toll and US:TX:RE also. PR is Park Road. As I said, most of them don't render at the moment (aside from the US:TX roads), but there are some ranch-to-market roads that show up, like here: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=30.4855lon=-99.44341layers=B0 I chose to treat the Old San Antonio Road as a member of the US:TX network with a ref of OSR. I can't remember if it renders that way at the moment. Ah. It does. http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=30.98139lon=-96.2095layers=B0 -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- The Macintosh mouse is really a three-button mouse, except they hid two of the buttons on the keyboard. -- Ted Nelson --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Minh Nguyen m...@1ec5.org [2012-04-03 09:36 -0700]: INDIANA and possibly others would be more legible in a wider font. There's still space on either side to accommodate the text. Only on the wide-format shields. On the narrower ones used for two-digit numbers, the name runs right to the edge. If the FHWA fonts don't work out, you could always resort to a bitmap font. That's a longer-term possibility. I'd like the shields to look good when scaled to any size, which is why the templates are all SVGs that get turned into PNGs only at the last possible moment. Bitmap fonts tend to look good at exactly one resolution, so I'd have to figure out a good way to dynamically choose the font characteristics based on the target rendering size. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- #define BITCOUNT(x) (((BX_(x) + (BX_(x) 4)) 0x0f0f0f0f) % 255) #define BX_(x) ((x) - (((x) 1) 0x)\ - (((x) 2) 0x)\ - (((x) 3) 0x)) /* Counts the number of bits in a word. */ --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 11:44 -0400]: On 4/3/2012 11:19 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: A lot of those still don't render because they duplicate the subnetwork in the ref tag, so Loop 5 (picking an arbitrary number) might be represented as network=US:TX:LOOP, ref=5 Loop. Once the ref is changed to a plain 5, it would be rendered properly. You mean *if* the ref is changed. Perhaps the locals want to keep the Loop in the ref tag. Point taken. They will appear on our particular rendering if the locals choose to change the tagging. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- No, being mentioned on my website doesn't necessarily disqualify you from getting a government job. -- vees --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org [2012-04-03 08:59 -0700]: That just reminded me... Chicago and Tulsa have city routes. I'm planning on looking at city routes after we sort out county routes. And these edge cases (city routes and state secondary/supplemental routes, especially oddball (Oregon) and extreme (Texas) cases) make for great prepwork to render cycleway network trailblazers (which tend towards obscenely diverse in much of the US). Rendering cycleway shields is a long-term idea I'd like to do. (I hadn't really been thinking about them until some point after I started working on the highway shields when I went hiking along part of the Northern Central Railroad Trail and saw that not only was it part of the East Coast Greenway, the East Coast Greenway had its own marker shield.) -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Je svacxvecxer. Lysperní jezeleni se vírnex vrtácxejí v mokrxavex. Vetcharxí hadrousxci jsou roztruchleni a selvy sysxtí tesknoskuhravex. -- Lewis Carroll, Jabberwocky --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/3/2012 12:52 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: * Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 11:44 -0400]: On 4/3/2012 11:19 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: A lot of those still don't render because they duplicate the subnetwork in the ref tag, so Loop 5 (picking an arbitrary number) might be represented as network=US:TX:LOOP, ref=5 Loop. Once the ref is changed to a plain 5, it would be rendered properly. You mean *if* the ref is changed. Perhaps the locals want to keep the Loop in the ref tag. Point taken. They will appear on our particular rendering if the locals choose to change the tagging. So you'll include network=US:US ref=17 Truck as acceptable tagging? Since I'm local to said route. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 03, 2012 at 12:07:57PM -0400, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 4/3/2012 11:59 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: That just reminded me... Chicago and Tulsa have city routes. I'm not aware of any such routes in Chicago. Are you thinking of the address numbers that are prominently posted on signs? That's all I can think of, and I'm in the metro area. Unless he's thinking of Chicago's portions of Cook County Highways, but those are spottily signed, even outside the city limits. -- Kristian M Zoerhoff pgpII63tvYSfq.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:04 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/3/2012 11:57 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: FM and RM should render identically (obviously since they're actually the same network) Er no. On roadside assemblies the text FARM ROAD and RANCH ROAD appears, and on green guide signs the shields have FM or RM up top. http://onlinemanuals.txdot.gov/txdotmanuals/sfb/images/3-1_Types_Route_Sign_Mount.JPG That's like saying California US highways are different from US highways in other states because California still uses the old style sign. Ranch-to-Market and Farm-to-Market roads are another case of same network, different sign. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farm-to-market_road ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: * Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 10:21 -0400]: - Secondaries (network US:VA:secondary) don't seem to be rendering at all, and the fallback shields aren't showing up even where there are ref tags (just seems to be using Mapnik style). Simple rule for VA: if the ref = 600, or it has a letter in it, it's a secondary (except 785 and 895, which are signed primary). 1 = 599 are primary. When we looked at the database, we saw some secondary routes tagged as US:VA and some as US:VA:Secondary. Since there didn't seem to be any overlap in the numbering, we chose to only look for the US:VA network and render either a primary or secondary shield based on the number. I assume you live in Virginia. What do you, as a resident, think of this rendering choice? As NE2 correctly points out, the number may not be the best guide. VA secondaries are a lot more like CR systems in other states or the secondary system in Missouri, in that the numbering doesn't carry between counties/cities (e.g. there are probably almost* as many SR 600s as there are counties in the state). My tagging has been to use US:VA:secondary to avoid ambiguity, with separate relations for each distinct secondary using is_in:county for disambiguation. * almost because technically Henrico and Arlington counties maintain their own secondaries, although I think Henrico signs its CRs using VDOT secondary shields. Separately, Mapnik ought to be using the fallback shields when it doesn't place one of our shields. It might be getting confused by the presence of the US:VA:secondary route even though there aren't any shields for it. I'll look into it. Cool. - The US 460 business route doesn't seem to be getting shields. We're looking for US Business routes under a network of US:US:Business. It probably isn't tagged that way. Once it is, it'll show up. Yeah, probably. When the database is live again I'll look into it. I-26 in TN seems to be missing: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=11lat=36.35713lon=-82.42503layers=B0 The route relation has I 26 in the ref tag. Once it's change to just 26, it'll render properly (although it'll take until the next time we run the cluster generating script after that change before it'll show up in concurrencies). Ugh. When I wrote up http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging#Tagging_with_relations my specific intent was that the ref tag was supposed to be bare to avoid renderers needing to parse/grep a bunch of crap to get the part they need to use on a generic shield design. There's no good reason to overload ref in relations with information that is already specifiable in an unambiguous fashion using network and/or modifier. For example, something asinine like ref=15 Loop is just silly, because (a) in the field it is actually Loop 15 and internally it's SL 15 (and on the official TX tourist map it's just a 15 in a hexagon, like spurs, which are numbered as part of the same system - much like RM/FM share the same numbering system internally and get a rectangle on the tourist map) and (b) the renderer will want to slap 15 on a generic Texas Loop shield, or maybe just a generic non-primary-network shield, without trying to guess what things aren't part of the route number. So if you want my advice - which I'm sure you don't :) - stick with what you're doing and don't cave to this let many flowers bloom tagging for relations philosophy. We have enough of that crap with way-based ref already, to the point that they've degenerated into a hideous, unmaintainable, uninterperable mess (that Mapquest gets anything useful out of it is a tribute to their herculean patience with mapper quirkiness); no need to perpetuate it with relations too. Finally, if you get bored, I wouldn't mind seeing a more commercial map style rendering option more akin to what Mapquest is doing - e.g. using the US and I shields but just circles/lozenges for the (primary) state routes and squares/rectangles for secondaries/CRs/Texas weirdness. After what you've done so far that will probably be child's play. :) Chris ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: Ah, okay. I'll set them up just like other named-but-not-publically-numbered routes like the New Jersey Turnpike and look for network US:OK, no ref, and whetever their name is. Just to avoid confusion with ODOT highways (numbered Oklahoma routes which may or may not also be named), perhaps US:OK:Turnpike or something similar? To my knowledge, none of the OTA highways have relations yet. As NE2 said, FM and RM differ in the text on the image, though the rendered shields are too small to be able to tell. We do have US:TX:Toll and US:TX:RE also. PR is Park Road. Wow, that's a level of nitpick I hadn't expected (even in Texas which seems to have so many state highway networks that it wouldn't surprise me to find Your Mom 581 at some point); park roads and rec roads are two different networks there (I tested this: park road 3 and rec road 3 are nowhere near each other). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Tue, Apr 3, 2012 at 10:36 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/3/2012 12:52 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: * Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 11:44 -0400]: On 4/3/2012 11:19 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: A lot of those still don't render because they duplicate the subnetwork in the ref tag, so Loop 5 (picking an arbitrary number) might be represented as network=US:TX:LOOP, ref=5 Loop. Once the ref is changed to a plain 5, it would be rendered properly. You mean *if* the ref is changed. Perhaps the locals want to keep the Loop in the ref tag. Point taken. They will appear on our particular rendering if the locals choose to change the tagging. So you'll include network=US:US ref=17 Truck as acceptable tagging? Since I'm local to said route. I'd probably go with network=US:US ref=17 modifier=Truck. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 13:36 -0400]: On 4/3/2012 12:52 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: Point taken. They will appear on our particular rendering if the locals choose to change the tagging. So you'll include network=US:US ref=17 Truck as acceptable tagging? Since I'm local to said route. If you want to tag your local routes that way, I won't stop you. But I don't want to have to deal with multiple tagging standards and it seems to me that there's a consensus on this list that network=US:US:Truck, ref=17 is the better approach, so that's what I will focus on rendering. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- If you can read this, you're not illiterate. Good for you. -- Bumper sticker slogan --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 15:15 -0400]: As NE2 correctly points out, the number may not be the best guide. VA secondaries are a lot more like CR systems in other states or the secondary system in Missouri, in that the numbering doesn't carry between counties/cities (e.g. there are probably almost* as many SR 600s as there are counties in the state). My tagging has been to use US:VA:secondary to avoid ambiguity, with separate relations for each distinct secondary using is_in:county for disambiguation. Okay. If there aren't any strenuous objections from other Virginians on the list, I'll go with US:VA:Secondary for the secondary routes and won't render them if they're tagged US:VA. Finally, if you get bored, I wouldn't mind seeing a more commercial map style rendering option more akin to what Mapquest is doing - e.g. using the US and I shields but just circles/lozenges for the (primary) state routes and squares/rectangles for secondaries/CRs/Texas weirdness. After what you've done so far that will probably be child's play. :) Yes, part of what we're doing here is seeing just how far we can go with this approach, complete with all the one-off shields that roads around the country use. I think that doing a proper commercial style will actually require some additional tagging--I think we need a network_level tag akin to the admin boundaries' admin_level so data consumers don't have to know about every possible network value in every jurisdiction--and eventually I'll get around to writing up a proposal if no one beats me to it. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Absence is to love what wind is to fire. It extinguishes the small; enkindles the great. --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/3/2012 5:19 PM, Phil! Gold wrote: If you want to tag your local routes that way, I won't stop you. But I don't want to have to deal with multiple tagging standards and it seems to me that there's a consensus on this list that network=US:US:Truck, ref=17 is the better approach, so that's what I will focus on rendering. That tagging is nonsense. There's no Truck U.S. Highway network, only a U.S. Highway network that includes truck-bannered routes. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Apr 3, 2012 3:15 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: That tagging is nonsense. There's no Truck U.S. Highway network, only a U.S. Highway network that includes truck-bannered routes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't bannered routes pretty much the reason for the modifier tag? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/3/2012 8:49 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Apr 3, 2012 3:15 PM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com mailto:nerou...@gmail.com wrote: That tagging is nonsense. There's no Truck U.S. Highway network, only a U.S. Highway network that includes truck-bannered routes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't bannered routes pretty much the reason for the modifier tag? Yes, they are, and I would not object to ref=17 modifier=Truck, except that you run into problems with an alternate route that's signed with a suffix - ref=70A with no modifier doesn't include the information that it's a modified version of another route, and ref=70 modifier=A would be unclear as to how the A modifies the 70 (it could be 70-A). ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 12:33 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: * Chris Lawrence lordsu...@gmail.com [2012-04-03 10:21 -0400]: I think concurrencies might look better stacked vertically in some circumstances... you'd have to have some logic about the underlying direction of the way to make that happen, but vertical stacking would look nicer on N-S ways I think. Compare: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.13887lon=-80.34525layers=B0 and http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=37.19653lon=-80.22878layers=B0 Try those URLs agan and let me know if you like the way it looks now. Most of the map still has to rerender (and I'm focusing the server on putting Interstates on the low zoom levels at the moment), but the areas around those links should be up to date. Wow. Vertical pairs. Looks nice, and switches back to horizontal as the line orientation changes. :-) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Here's something that might be a diversion while you wait for the database to allow editing again. Richard Weait and I have been working on a rendering that uses route relations to make individual shields that reflect what each state uses. I've got a working prototype, and I'd like to get some feedback on it. The server is a rather slow one sitting at my place behind a slow-ish DSL connection, which means that it'll probably range from a little slow to very slow indeed. I'm working on getting some better hosting for it. If you're not yet deterred, I invite you to look at http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/ . The code and source files are at https://launchpad.net/osm-shields . I haven't yet written up the details about what works or doesn't but the basic gist is that we use the network= and ref= tags on the relation and, if there's no ref= tag, use the name= tag so we can get things like the New Jersey Turnpike, which has a name but no signed number. Business and similar variants are expected to be in the network tag, since that's the closest thing I've seen to a consensus on the topic. If there's no route relation or the tagging was not understood, we fall back to rendering the ref= tag on the way just like the main OSM rendering. There are actually two shield styles we have. There's the cutout-style that you see by default and another style you can switch to that more closely resembles the roadside reassurance signs for the routes. The cutouts will probably load faster--more of them have been rendered already--but please take a look at the other one, too; I'd like to know which one people prefer. I'm not an expert on every state, so I'm particularly interested in whether things look good to the natives of each state and, if not, what could make them look better. If you just want to look around, here are some spots you might find interesting: * The greatest concurrency in the US is an 8-plex in Indiana: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=39.76391lon=-86.02913layers=B0 * New Jersey has several highways with their own shields. You can see both the New Jersey Turnpike and the Garden State Parkway here: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12lat=40.53314lon=-74.31054layers=B0 * Many states have boring rectangles for their shields. Some have interesting shields with details that don't really come out with our rendering. Two of the more visually interesting states that we do show are, I think, Washington and Utah: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12lat=40.53314lon=-74.31054layers=B0 http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=11lat=40.6916lon=-111.90163layers=B0 * Even Washington DC has its own shield design, but there's only one road with that sign, DC 295 (which is a connector between MD 295 and I-295): http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=14lat=38.88345lon=-76.9615layers=B0 So be patient with it if the tiles load slowly and please let me know what you think! -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- ...And the lord said, 'lo, there shall only be case or default labels inside a switch statement.' -- Apple MPW C Compiler error message --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: Business and similar variants are expected to be in the network tag, since that's the closest thing I've seen to a consensus on the topic. If there's no route relation or the tagging was not understood, we fall back to rendering the ref= tag on the way just like the main OSM rendering. You know that MapQuest's rendering expects the ref tag to contain the modifier, right? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: I'm not an expert on every state, so I'm particularly interested in whether things look good to the natives of each state and, if not, what could make them look better. Florida has special toll shields. These are not represented by relations since, for example, SR 528 is partly toll-shielded and partly normal shielded. If the ref tag on the way is 528 Toll rather than 528, it gets a toll shield. Example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=28.4112lon=-80.8121zoom=13layers=Q http://www.okroads.com/121603/i95flexit205.JPG ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: Business and similar variants are expected to be in the network tag, since that's the closest thing I've seen to a consensus on the topic. If there's no route relation or the tagging was not understood, we fall back to rendering the ref= tag on the way just like the main OSM rendering. You know that MapQuest's rendering expects the ref tag to contain the modifier, right? When eating chicken wings, the pseudonym known as NE2 complains about the bones, rather than enjoying the meat. :-) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: Richard Weait and I have been working on a rendering that uses route relations to make individual shields that reflect what each state uses. Superb! This will greatly assist OSM to make inroads in the US - for those who glance at the map, see the weird ovals, and dismiss it as a child's toy. I looked at some of the states that I know about, and they look great to me.In SC, I haven't bothered with route relations yet - I see that it will now be project ONE after the great license purge of 2012 is complete! (NE2 has created several in SC: http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=16lat=33.80378lon=-78.79053layers=B0 ) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Indianapolis has some crazy multiplexes. Look here to see properly tagged 5-, 6- and 7-plexes rendered correctly and beautifully. http://elrond.aperiodic.net/shields/?zoom=12lat=39.7007lon=-86.09646layers=B0 Phil, you were absolutely right about using the cutout style shields on the US route markers. They look great. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: please let me know what you think! Looks great - does the US OSMF have server(s) that can host this style yet? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:26 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: please let me know what you think! Looks great - does the US OSMF have server(s) that can host this style yet? As far as I know: Does the US Local Chapter have a server? - Yes. Can it host and serve tile sets? - Yes. Of this type? - Perhaps. Will they serve this style? - Up to them. :-) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 9:26 AM, Mike N nice...@att.net wrote: On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: please let me know what you think! Looks great - does the US OSMF have server(s) that can host this style yet? OSM US has a server and I told Phil and Richard that I'd work on getting the tiles going. I was going to work on it this past weekend but got busier than I thought. It seems like it should be pretty quick to get going, though. I'll let them know when it's running so they can announce more general use. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-02 09:18 -0400]: On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: Business and similar variants are expected to be in the network tag, since that's the closest thing I've seen to a consensus on the topic. You know that MapQuest's rendering expects the ref tag to contain the modifier, right? As far as I can tell, MapQuest is basing their rendering entirely on the ref= tag on ways. That's certainly what their stylesheets at https://github.com/MapQuest/MapQuest-Mapnik-Style do; those don't look at route relations at all. I can't be completely authoritative on this, since those stylesheets don't appear to have any cases for rendering business shields, so they're probably out of date with respect to the current MapQuest rendering. It seems likely, however, that they're still extracting their data from the ways' ref= tags, so our rendering is in a different category. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- I just had a bad day. Well, join the club. Can I be president? I'm president. You can be the janitor. -- Buffy and Dawn (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, No Place Like Home) --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-02 09:23 -0400]: On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: I'm not an expert on every state, so I'm particularly interested in whether things look good to the natives of each state and, if not, what could make them look better. Florida has special toll shields. These are not represented by relations since, for example, SR 528 is partly toll-shielded and partly normal shielded. There's a similar problem in Tennessee, where a route may go back and forth between primary and secondary signage depending on the state's classification of the road at that point. For the moment, we opted to ignore the Tennessee problem as much as possible and use the primary sign for a route if any part of that route is signed as a primary. For things like Florida's toll roads, we currently treat that as a separate network, so a route relation tagged as network=US:FL:Toll, ref=528 would get the toll shield. I can see the argument that the toll portions are still considered part of SR 528 so they should still be part of the SR 528 route relation, but there is something distinct about them, since they are signed differently. Making a separate relation for the toll portions and putting the tolled ways into both relations might not be a bad solution. That's definitely one that I, as a data consumer, could handle. -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- If the code and the comments disagree, then both are probably wrong. -- Norm Schryer --- -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/2/2012 11:17 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: * Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-02 09:18 -0400]: On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: Business and similar variants are expected to be in the network tag, since that's the closest thing I've seen to a consensus on the topic. You know that MapQuest's rendering expects the ref tag to contain the modifier, right? As far as I can tell, MapQuest is basing their rendering entirely on the ref= tag on ways. Yes, as far as I know. But since the modifier appears after the number (US 1 Alternate) it's clearly part of the 'ref' part of the ref rather than the network. Doing something different on relations will only confuse people. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
On 4/2/2012 11:40 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote: On 4/2/2012 11:17 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: * Nathan Edgars IInerou...@gmail.com [2012-04-02 09:18 -0400]: On 4/2/2012 8:25 AM, Phil! Gold wrote: Business and similar variants are expected to be in the network tag, since that's the closest thing I've seen to a consensus on the topic. You know that MapQuest's rendering expects the ref tag to contain the modifier, right? As far as I can tell, MapQuest is basing their rendering entirely on the ref= tag on ways. Yes, as far as I know. But since the modifier appears after the number (US 1 Alternate) it's clearly part of the 'ref' part of the ref rather than the network. Doing something different on relations will only confuse people. Actually, is there a reason it can't support both? (This sort of flexibility could also be used, for example, when an Interstate relation has the I in the ref, such as most of I-80, and to process any network=US:FL:CR:* as a county road.) ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Highway Shield Rendering
Phil! this looks pretty good for what I think you are saying is an early version of these renderings. I was a bit surprised to see shields beginning to render only at zoom level 11, and spottily at that. Shields at zoom levels 10, 9 and even 8 and 7 (maybe Interstates only?) would be helpful, if crowded in spots. I realize that perhaps 11 as a starting point is only just that. Yes, 12, 13 and up to 14 work, but 15 and above just display pink tiles. You likely know that already, and I supposed that is to reduce tile server load; OK. Most specific shields in California look good and familiar, as you make correct distinctions between Interstates and state routes. However, county routes (designated by a regional letter and a number, such as S 21) are not rendered with proper shields at all. This is a critical component for many areas. And oddly, in the San Diego area, CA 209 and CA 75 (Point Loma and Coronado, respectively) don't render with your newer shields, but the old style Mapnik shields. Even in read only mode I am unable coax JOSM to read only so I can't see what these (S 21, CA 209 and CA 75) tags are. It may be that they are tagged in a wrong or odd way, it may be that you aren't catching a certain case of things, I'm not sure. Also, there are some toll ways in Orange County (California, e.g. CA 73, CA 241) which don't render specifically as toll, but as there is no distinct shield in California to distinguish toll roads, I'm not sure this is a defect in your algorithm or renderings -- the regular state route shield is displayed, apparently correctly. I also see absolutely no business routes where I know them to exist. I'm still searching for some in your rendering, but haven't found any (yet). That's my first look at your first cut. At least your first public cut as broadcast to the talk-us pages. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
