Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
Randy, I just want to point out that there is an existing and well established OSM-based service that already supplies worldwide boundaries in a number of formats https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/boundaries/ . Further the operator runs daily quality checks on changes in the boundaries. Simon Am 11.06.2015 um 14:54 schrieb Randy Meech: On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Randy Meech randy.me...@gmail.com mailto:randy.me...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even sub-neighborhoods. The prior discussions kept us from adding the boundaries. Maybe it is time to reconsider. The Mapzen effort to produce a boundaries overlay is a promising solution to the problem, but I haven't heard anything from Mapzen for a while. We've changed course to publish existing OSM boundaries in different formats, similar to the metro extracts [2], although this is not live yet. The theory is that if we make the data more accessible to people for visualization, they'll improve it. Just an update on this, last weekend we launched Borders, which is similar to Metro Extracts, but just publishes GeoJSON files of all the admin levels for every country from OSM. We hope that making this data more visible accessible will lead to its improvement. Data: https://mapzen.com/data/borders/ Blog: https://mapzen.com/blog/total-perspective-vortex Code: - https://github.com/pelias/fences-slicer - https://github.com/pelias/fences-cli - https://github.com/pelias/fences-builder Additionally, Nathaniel Kelso of Natural Earth and Quattroshapes will be starting at Mapzen on Monday (yay). Among many other things, we want to focus on this area both within OSM and in other data projects. If anyone is interested in helping, drop us a line. -Randy ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Sun, Mar 22, 2015 at 8:05 AM, Randy Meech randy.me...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 11:00 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even sub-neighborhoods. The prior discussions kept us from adding the boundaries. Maybe it is time to reconsider. The Mapzen effort to produce a boundaries overlay is a promising solution to the problem, but I haven't heard anything from Mapzen for a while. We've changed course to publish existing OSM boundaries in different formats, similar to the metro extracts [2], although this is not live yet. The theory is that if we make the data more accessible to people for visualization, they'll improve it. Just an update on this, last weekend we launched Borders, which is similar to Metro Extracts, but just publishes GeoJSON files of all the admin levels for every country from OSM. We hope that making this data more visible accessible will lead to its improvement. Data: https://mapzen.com/data/borders/ Blog: https://mapzen.com/blog/total-perspective-vortex Code: - https://github.com/pelias/fences-slicer - https://github.com/pelias/fences-cli - https://github.com/pelias/fences-builder Additionally, Nathaniel Kelso of Natural Earth and Quattroshapes will be starting at Mapzen on Monday (yay). Among many other things, we want to focus on this area both within OSM and in other data projects. If anyone is interested in helping, drop us a line. -Randy ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
It supports at least down to level 11, simply click on the entries and it will display sub-boundaries and so on. Not that there isn't room for further parallel services, but this wasn't actually a vacuum :-). In particular anything helping improving boundaries in the US is a good thing. Simon Am 11.06.2015 um 17:20 schrieb Randy Meech: On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch mailto:si...@poole.ch wrote: I just want to point out that there is an existing and well established OSM-based service that already supplies worldwide boundaries in a number of formats https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/boundaries/ . Yes -- unless I'm mistaken, this only supports admin_level=2, meaning country borders? This new project exposes all the other admin levels as well, in order to display cities, neighborhoods, etc. We saw demand for this in feedback on Metro Extracts and elsewhere. -Randy signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:55 AM, Simon Poole si...@poole.ch wrote: I just want to point out that there is an existing and well established OSM-based service that already supplies worldwide boundaries in a number of formats https://osm.wno-edv-service.de/boundaries/ . Yes -- unless I'm mistaken, this only supports admin_level=2, meaning country borders? This new project exposes all the other admin levels as well, in order to display cities, neighborhoods, etc. We saw demand for this in feedback on Metro Extracts and elsewhere. -Randy ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 6:12 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I apologize for coming in so late on this thread. Looking at my small county, we have 55 place=hamlet according to an overpass query. Note we're only talking about `place=hamlet` in urban areas. I wasn't 100 % clear whether your post referred to `place=hamlet` nodes in urban areas or in general. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 at 7:33 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: Note we're only talking about `place=hamlet` in urban areas. I wasn't 100 % clear whether your post referred to `place=hamlet` nodes in urban areas or in general. Sorry - I missed the Urban part. The 55 are definitely not urban. However, my concerns about neighborhood boundaries are all in urban areas. -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
2015-03-22 4:00 GMT+01:00 Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us: At its most basic, OSM is a geospatial database. We have countries, states, counties, and cities. Why not neighborhoods. OSM tells where a feature is located. Points can only tell us how close a feature is to a node. Using nodes to represent neighborhoods doesn't allow with any certainty where a feature is located while a polygon can. +1 Cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 4:41 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-22 4:00 GMT+01:00 Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us: At its most basic, OSM is a geospatial database. We have countries, states, counties, and cities. Why not neighborhoods. OSM tells where a feature is located. Points can only tell us how close a feature is to a node. Using nodes to represent neighborhoods doesn't allow with any certainty where a feature is located while a polygon can. Points are too general. Polygons are too specific. Jeeze. One could invent something in between: an approximate radius point or a fuzzy polygon. Please don't assume because your particular neighborhood has (insert one: fuzzy boundaries, exact legal boundaries, well understood boundaries, an edit war about the boundary, a name used only for a railroad outhouse building in 1850) that there is only One True Solution. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
Clifford and Serge write: Seattle has very defined neighborhoods and even sub-neighborhoods. As you imply, Seattle may be an exception (more detailed explanation below). Serge, this isn't an implication, it is stated and actual fact. ...But if we have access to administrative boundaries, I believe they should be in OSM. (At least until we have a viable alternative.) Why not neighborhoods? There are some good reasons to not consider this. First, there are a growing number of people who believe that administrative data is very useful, but breaks OSM's ground observable rule. That is, someone who is present on the ground should be able to observe the data in OSM. It's usually not possible to do that with administrative boundaries. And other times, Serge, it is 100% possible. Signs which read Welcome to Hillcrest and Allied Gardens, a community of San Diego, City In Motion are real and fairly delineate where a community (neighborhood, quarter, district, suburb, area-within-city-limits...) begins and ends. Seattleites agree that you enter Ballard when you cross the bridge, or that you are in Magnolia as you drive over Balmer rail yard via the Magnolia Bridge or West Dravus. OSM can map these, OSM SHOULD map these, OSM DOES map these. San Diego (and elsewhere) has signs -- therefore this is ground truth-able. In Seattle (and other places) maybe there are or aren't signs, but when you ask locals, and 100% who are knowledgeable to answer say Yup, once past Salmon Bay on the Ballard Bridge, you are 'in' Ballard then OSM needs to say so, too. Of course adminstrative boundaries are things people care about, but there's a growing number of people who believe that this data would be best served from some other dataset and then used in conjunction with OSM data during output (ie rendering, geocoding, etc.) rather than be integrated into OSM itself. Growing? Are you keeping track, Serge? May we see your data, please? The second reason to consider not entering neighborhood data into OSM is that many towns and cities do not have hard and fast rules regarding neighborhoods. Neighborhoods are subjective. Neighborhoods CAN be subjective, but other times they are as solid as a city limit sign. OSM should reflect that, especially when true. Not only are they subjective but neighborhoods have strong associations with issues of personal identity, such as ethnicity (and) socio-economic status. In other words, a conflict between two people in regards to a neighborhood can have larger implications. Heck, this is true between Israel and Palestinians, as well as every border dispute on Earth. OSM copes. Sure, maybe the DWG gets involved (I remember Chechnya...) and it is some effort to untangle the politics. But we owe this effort (our best effort) to our map consumers. We DON'T owe them let's throw up our hands because there is no line drawn on the ground. Too many people who consume our (and every other) map believe boundaries to be such an integral part of map that the concept of boundaries to delineate the names and features of place will never go away. Hey, I know that astronauts looking at Earth don't see boundaries. But they aren't making a map. We are. Imagine if Bob and Alice conflict on where a neighborhood boundary is inside OSM. The issue escalates to an edit war and the DWG is called in to resolve the conflict. Let's say that Frank is our DWG member. How is Frank supposed to resolve the conflict between Alice and Bob? Is there a sign? Done. Are there public published (e.g. city government) geo data? Well, less done, but still done. The latter might not be on the ground verifiable but such data DO represent the will of the People. I believe OSM can take that as not nothing even if it is not zealously on the ground verifiable. How do we justify every other boundary in OSM? We can't see THOSE, Serge, can we? Often...administrative recognition is not in alignment with the people. This is a contradiction; see above. I imagine this would be especially an issue with neighborhoods where lots of the under-represented populations live. I don't, so I suppose we can agree to disagree. I suspect you can see where this could all be problematic... That's why I'm not in favor of this data being inside OSM. I think it'd be better for a different dataset that OSM tools can then consume. I don't, so I suppose we can agree to disagree. Tenets of our map like on the ground verifiable are important, but only to the extent they are widely and consistently respected. Boundaries, in our map since Day 1 and never-to-be-eradicated (I'm just being realistic) totally violate that spirit, so this argument rings hollow to me. Just because our data police find their work difficult doesn't mean they get a pass on rolling up their sleeves and doing it: they knew the work was work when they signed up. They don't get to hide behind inconsistent
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 5:12 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: Looking at King County, especially Seattle, it appears that a number of the place=hamlet are actually neighborhoods. We have been reluctant to add neighborhood borders because of prior discussions on the mailing list which, in essence, believe that neighborhoods don't have defined borders. While I believe Seattle and others do have defined borders, I really don't want to fight this all over. I believe the wiki mentions a method for defining boundaries of neighborhoods, which if they're actually boundaries that exist, then there's not much reason not to add them. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
In Santa Cruz county (California), each place=* tag has been carefully compared to local knowledge and a wonderful reference (book) I have called Santa Cruz County Place Names: A Geographical Dictionary by author Donald Thomas Clark, published by the Santa Cruz Historical Trust. At over 500 pages, it is a wonderful reference, and is rather clear on whether something is completely historical or accurate currently (the book is a bit dated, being published in 1986, but I have the 2nd edition from 2008). The author was the first librarian at UC Santa Cruz and wrote a similar tome for Monterey County (also excellent). Maybe you have or maybe you don't have such a similar (excellent) resource for your community. I wish everybody did. But you either DO have or CAN GET local knowledge (everywhere on Earth FOR everywhere on Earth) that can yield reliable, human sourced data for OSM to use. And maybe these data are or maybe these data are not on the ground verifiable, in which case I leave it up to you whether they should or should not be in OSM. If a lonely crossroads gas station with a friendly owner says Yep, it's called Orchard Crossroads around here... that's good enough for me to put a hamlet into OSM -- I don't need a sign to tell me, the man who knows it to be true just did. Retagging hamlets isn't something that can or should be mechanized by a bot. It is going to take real effort, meaning local knowledge crafted by human beings. Hm, this sounds like a good basis upon which to recruit more volunteers for our project SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On 3/18/2015 4:20 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote: Levittown, New York, for instance is a hamlet with a population of over fifty thousand. This is not a hamlet. Typically a hamlet would have less than 100-200 people. What you've described is a town or a city, this is regardless of if it has incorporated. It does not matter if it is defined as a hamlet in New York law. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Thursday, March 19, 2015 04:12:45 PM Clifford Snow wrote: I apologize for coming in so late on this thread. Looking at my small county, we have 55 place=hamlet according to an overpass query. (2007 for Washington State) I certainly recognize a number of these hamlets. I would hate to see them removed. I would like to see if any need to be updated to cities, for example Bow and Edison. I wonder if it might be better to add a FIXME to all hamlets asking that someone confirm the hamlet status. Once they have been verified the FIXME can be removed and, hopefully, mappers won't have to re-verify it. --Eric ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: I wouldn’t. The USPS doesn’t recognize it, so mail can not be delivered there. There are no signs either. The USPS is not an always a good choice. I did some googling to see if it is a historical name, but all the results are spam (“Best plumber in Benders Corner, NJ!”) Nobody around here knows what it is. I’m just going to remove it and close out the note. Yet another reason I cannot eat my own dog food. Here's the case where finding the right polygon for a POI would be a useful or just leave it alone. I have to ask how hard did you really search for Bender's Corner? OSM is not a respresentation of a legal subdivisions, acessor parcel numbers and the like. However, having a way for a person to search for Bender's Corner; use OSM to find it on the map; and perhaps route to the area would be a useful feature! Now OSM is the only map where you cannot locate Bender's Corner. It looks like it might be a nice area. http://berkeley-heights-real-estate.com/home-sales-berkeley-heights-nj-new-jersey/ 110 Diamond Hill Rd Benders Corner $299,000 $295,000 63 01/02/2013 http://www.tripmondo.com/united-states/new-jersey/benders-corner/attractions-in-benders-corner/ http://www.city-data.com/nbmaps/neigh-Berkeley-Heights-New-Jersey.html http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/benders-corner-nj/07974/weather-forecast/2174854 http://www.weichert.com/search/realestate/SearchResults.aspx?hood=16925view=map Copyright © 2015 Garden State Multiple Lis ting Service, L.L.C. All rights reserved. On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Would you put bender's corner on a map today? Yes! Bender's Corner is worth a name search to someone. If the barrier to cleaning is too great, not enough cleaning will happen. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 9:23 PM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote: Now OSM is the only map where you cannot locate Bender's Corner. It looks like it might be a nice area. http://berkeley-heights-real-estate.com/home-sales-berkeley-heights-nj-new-jersey/ 110 Diamond Hill Rd Benders Corner $299,000 $295,000 63 01/02/2013 http://www.tripmondo.com/united-states/new-jersey/benders-corner/attractions-in-benders-corner/ http://www.city-data.com/nbmaps/neigh-Berkeley-Heights-New-Jersey.html http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/benders-corner-nj/07974/weather-forecast/2174854 http://www.weichert.com/search/realestate/SearchResults.aspx?hood=16925view=map Yeah, but ALL of those are sploggy results, created to attract search engines, using the same original dataset. It's all mindless spam created from GNIS data. Had the GNIS accepted Happy Puppy Land, that would appear the same way. Yes! Bender's Corner is worth a name search to someone. I don't think a human would have cared enough to add Bender's Corner. It's only the GNIS import that brought it to OSM. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
OK, I’ll revert the changeset if if bothers you that much.. On Mar 20, 2015, at 12:23 AM, Greg Morgan dr.kludge...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 19, 2015 at 7:45 AM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com mailto:br...@7thposition.com wrote: I wouldn’t. The USPS doesn’t recognize it, so mail can not be delivered there. There are no signs either. The USPS is not an always a good choice. I did some googling to see if it is a historical name, but all the results are spam (“Best plumber in Benders Corner, NJ!”) Nobody around here knows what it is. I’m just going to remove it and close out the note. Yet another reason I cannot eat my own dog food. Here's the case where finding the right polygon for a POI would be a useful or just leave it alone. I have to ask how hard did you really search for Bender's Corner? OSM is not a respresentation of a legal subdivisions, acessor parcel numbers and the like. However, having a way for a person to search for Bender's Corner; use OSM to find it on the map; and perhaps route to the area would be a useful feature! Now OSM is the only map where you cannot locate Bender's Corner. It looks like it might be a nice area. http://berkeley-heights-real-estate.com/home-sales-berkeley-heights-nj-new-jersey/ http://berkeley-heights-real-estate.com/home-sales-berkeley-heights-nj-new-jersey/ 110 Diamond Hill Rd Benders Corner $299,000$295,00063 01/02/2013 http://www.tripmondo.com/united-states/new-jersey/benders-corner/attractions-in-benders-corner/ http://www.tripmondo.com/united-states/new-jersey/benders-corner/attractions-in-benders-corner/ http://www.city-data.com/nbmaps/neigh-Berkeley-Heights-New-Jersey.html http://www.city-data.com/nbmaps/neigh-Berkeley-Heights-New-Jersey.html http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/benders-corner-nj/07974/weather-forecast/2174854 http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/benders-corner-nj/07974/weather-forecast/2174854 http://www.weichert.com/search/realestate/SearchResults.aspx?hood=16925view=map http://www.weichert.com/search/realestate/SearchResults.aspx?hood=16925view=map Copyright © 2015 Garden State Multiple Lis ting Service, L.L.C. All rights reserved. On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com mailto:bry...@obviously.com wrote: Would you put bender's corner on a map today? Yes! Bender's Corner is worth a name search to someone. If the barrier to cleaning is too great, not enough cleaning will happen. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org mailto:Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
I apologize for coming in so late on this thread. Looking at my small county, we have 55 place=hamlet according to an overpass query. (2007 for Washington State) I certainly recognize a number of these hamlets. I would hate to see them removed. I would like to see if any need to be updated to cities, for example Bow and Edison. I know for certain that Edison Station is used by locals to describe an intersection with some shops and restaurants. I doubt that more than a couple of dozen people live here. Maybe the problem is how we tag these areas. Instead of place=hamlet, maybe it should be place=known_to_locals_as. Looking at King County, especially Seattle, it appears that a number of the place=hamlet are actually neighborhoods. We have been reluctant to add neighborhood borders because of prior discussions on the mailing list which, in essence, believe that neighborhoods don't have defined borders. While I believe Seattle and others do have defined borders, I really don't want to fight this all over. My suggestion is to encourage people to clean up place=hamlet from local knowledge. I fully concur with Richard Weait that we need to attract more mappers. Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
I wouldn’t. The USPS doesn’t recognize it, so mail can not be delivered there. There are no signs either. I did some googling to see if it is a historical name, but all the results are spam (“Best plumber in Benders Corner, NJ!”) Nobody around here knows what it is. I’m just going to remove it and close out the note. On Mar 18, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Bryce Nesbitt bry...@obviously.com wrote: Would you put bender's corner on a map today? If the barrier to cleaning is too great, not enough cleaning will happen. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: My initial reaction to any automated edit is to break out in a rash. I don't have the same reaction. A long time ago I added building=entrance to buildings. That tag was deprecated in favor of entrance=* at some point. A mapper comes along and changes building=entrance to entrance=main with a script. I was about to send the mapper a thank you because he saved me a bunch of time, when his work was backed out. So there I am left making the same changes manually that the script had already made. My manual edits added no additional value to what the script had already accomplished other than wasting my time. I could have worked on other more important issues. 3) New mapper fixes the BadHamlet and starts mapping their favourite restaurants, bowling alleys and coffee shops. This is a great idea but I believe that you have the experience backwards. I can only speak for myself but as a new mapper but I had no interesting in fixing things. I mapped features of interest or where I found the most rewards. I didn't start fixing issues until I had a great deal of experience. In addition, I think some of these hamlets might require more research than a new mapper would be willing to stomach. I believe that you might just run the new mapper off. Regards, Greg ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
2015-03-18 3:48 GMT+01:00 Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com: (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright. I live near it and there really is no such thing.) or maybe keep it as a historical place name, something like place=locality and old_name=Bender's Corner? I agree that this is something local mappers with local knowledge should decide upon. Cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 5:08 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-18 3:48 GMT+01:00 Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com: (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright. I live near it and there really is no such thing.) or maybe keep it as a historical place name, something like place=locality and old_name=Bender's Corner? I agree that this is something local mappers with local knowledge should decide upon. I'm inclined to delete or move it to OpenHistoricalMap. Nonextant places are annoying at best, dangerous at worst. Insert anecdote about my father who likes to take a motorcycle and his wife well into the Mojave, Sonoran or Cimarron Desert and find random spots on the map hoping to find ghost towns. Usually he finds out how broken whatever map it is he's using is. Granted, dad's smart about it and travels with a lot of gear in case they gotta tough it out, but he legitimately worries about people who go out there following a GPS blindly. I'm trying to get him involved in the project, if even only by Walking Papers or georeferenced photos and a GPS tracker, though so far aerial imagery and Dude, I gotta tell you where I went on my last trip... phone calls have been major help in the desert southwest. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
Would you put bender's corner on a map today? If the barrier to cleaning is too great, not enough cleaning will happen. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On 03/17/2015 05:25 AM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com mailto:a...@mapbox.com wrote: What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban areas? My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in the US: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541 I just posted how we could fix this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931 I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be retagged as place=neighbourhood Careful with this! In New York, hamlets are very often quite well-defined entities. They have road signs at their borders, the people who live in them self-identify as residents of the hamlet, they frequently have post offices named for them, and so on. What they lack is a distinct local government. Instead, their government is that of the township that contains them. I would be quite annoyed if the hamlet that was my home town when I was growing up (Inwood, New York) were to be tagged as a neighbourhood of Hempstead. Town of Hempstead, in the present day, has very little land in Hempstead - limited to a smallish tract surrounding the town hall. The rest of Hempstead is Village of Hempstead - whose residents self-identify as living in Hempstead. The residents of the unincorporated areas of the township do NOT identify as living in Hempstead. Some of these hamlets are in fact medium-sized cities that never troubled to incorporate. Levittown, New York, for instance is a hamlet with a population of over fifty thousand. And - local mappers have already done considerable tidying with respect to New York hamlets. This sort of mechanical edit means that the local mappers would have to go back and retag the hamlets yet again. -- 73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On 3/18/15 1:29 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 5:08 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: or maybe keep it as a historical place name, something like place=locality and old_name=Bender's Corner? I agree that this is something local mappers with local knowledge should decide upon I'm inclined to delete or move it to OpenHistoricalMap. i'd like to see more of us thinking in terms of moving things to OHM, but... 1) make sure they really existed at some point in time 2) when possible, come up with at least years to use in start_date and end_date tags. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
Everyone, Aren't some of these hamlets still used as postal addresses? In that sense, they still exist. Also, in the West we have the phenomenon of old rail infrastructure, such as watering stations, that were named. A good example is Adamana near the Petrified Forest. There are still a couple of houses there. Would will still consider those hamlets? Charlotte At 11:07 AM 3/18/2015, you wrote: On 3/18/15 1:29 PM, Paul Johnson wrote: On Wed, Mar 18, 2015 at 5:08 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.comdieterdre...@gmail.com wrote: or maybe keep it as a historical place name, something like place=locality and old_name=Bender's Corner? I agree that this is something local mappers with local knowledge should decide upon I'm inclined to delete or move it to OpenHistoricalMap. i'd like to see more of us thinking in terms of moving things to OHM, but... 1) make sure they really existed at some point in time 2) when possible, come up with at least years to use in start_date and end_date tags. richard -- mailto:rwe...@averillpark.netrwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us Charlotte Wolter 927 18th Street Suite A Santa Monica, California 90403 +1-310-597-4040 techl...@techlady.com Skype: thetechlady ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On 3/18/15 2:51 PM, Charlotte Wolter wrote: Everyone, Aren't some of these hamlets still used as postal addresses? In that sense, they still exist. Also, in the West we have the phenomenon of old rail infrastructure, such as watering stations, that were named. A good example is Adamana near the Petrified Forest. There are still a couple of houses there. Would will still consider those hamlets? those are pretty much exactly one of the things that makes a hamlet. richard -- rwe...@averillpark.net Averill Park Networking - GIS IT Consulting OpenStreetMap - PostgreSQL - Linux Java - Web Applications - Search signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
My initial reaction to any automated edit is to break out in a rash. Can we use that image to promote mapping best practices? :-) Goal: A new local mapper in each BadHamlet Method: 1) Create an overlay that displays the hamlets as ugly, rash-like spots. It could even be a rash that allows checkouts a la tasking manager. 2) Encourage mappers to do outreach in each spot. - Mapper in Oregon sees that there is a BadHamlet in Massachusetts, adjacent to their old hometown / alma mater / vacation spot. Mapper reaches out to their old classmates / colleagues / neighbours to find one or more new mappers in / near that hamlet. 3) New mapper fixes the BadHamlet and starts mapping their favourite restaurants, bowling alleys and coffee shops. Benefits: We get new local, mappers, in areas that aren't getting as much attention as they might. Mappers have a fun reason to reach out to folks they might not have contacted recently.incorrect hamlet Mappers have the opportunity to do some fun outreach to potential new mappers for the first time. Results: The BadHamlets get fixed. Potential objections: Outreach is too hard, a mechanical edit is way faster. I don't like outreach, I want to use software tools. That will take forever. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:18 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: In some cases, these hamlets may be separate legal entities, even though surrounded by the city. For example, Davidson County, Tennessee, and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan government. However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police forces. So, kinda like NYC and the boroughs? Or more on par with, say, Metro Oregon http://www.oregonmetro.gov/? Or is both somehow a thing that exists? ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
In some cases, these hamlets may be separate legal entities, even though surrounded by the city. For example, Davidson County, Tennessee, and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan government. However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police forces. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. On March 17, 2015 4:25:51 AM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban areas? My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in the US: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541 I just posted how we could fix this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931 I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be retagged as place=neighbourhood -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, Alex Barth a...@mapbox.com wrote: What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban areas? My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in the US: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541 I just posted how we could fix this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931 I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be retagged as place=neighbourhood ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Mar 17, 2015, at 8:06 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: Brand new anonymous users come to the map every day and are confused by what these hamlets are. proof: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246 I kind of doubt this person is going to stick around and improve the map. To them, it just looks like vandalism. (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright. I live near it and there really is no such thing.) Illustrating: it's easy to add junk to OSM, it takes a lot of courage to remove junk. +1 on that. When I come across things I think are wrong but not absolutely sure of it, I just leave it. I suspect that reaction is pretty common. Tod smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
Brand new anonymous users come to the map every day and are confused by what these hamlets are. proof: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246 https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246 I kind of doubt this person is going to stick around and improve the map. To them, it just looks like vandalism. (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright. I live near it and there really is no such thing.) On Mar 17, 2015, at 5:58 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: Goal: A new local mapper in each BadHamlet Method: 1) Create an overlay that displays the hamlets as ugly, rash-like spots. It could even be a rash that allows checkouts a la tasking manager. 2) Encourage mappers to do outreach in each spot. - Mapper in Oregon sees that there is a BadHamlet in Massachusetts, adjacent to their old hometown / alma mater / vacation spot. Mapper reaches out to their old classmates / colleagues / neighbours to find one or more new mappers in / near that hamlet. 3) New mapper fixes the BadHamlet and starts mapping their favourite restaurants, bowling alleys and coffee shops. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Bryan Housel br...@7thposition.com wrote: Brand new anonymous users come to the map every day and are confused by what these hamlets are. proof: https://www.openstreetmap.org/note/163246 I kind of doubt this person is going to stick around and improve the map. To them, it just looks like vandalism. (IMO the “Bender’s Corner” hamlet should probably just be deleted outright. I live near it and there really is no such thing.) Illustrating: it's easy to add junk to OSM, it takes a lot of courage to remove junk. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
Outreach is awesome. Mechanical edits have their (rather limited, imho) place, but outreach is awesome. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
I will have to look into the details to say for sure. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. On March 17, 2015 4:29:34 PM Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:18 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: In some cases, these hamlets may be separate legal entities, even though surrounded by the city. For example, Davidson County, Tennessee, and the city of Nashville merged in 1963 into a shared Metropolitan government. However, six smaller municipalities within the county chose to keep partial autonomy. Growth of Nashville means that only road signs show that you have crossed over into these municipalities, but they maintain their own police forces. So, kinda like NYC and the boroughs? Or more on par with, say, Metro Oregon http://www.oregonmetro.gov/? Or is both somehow a thing that exists? -- ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:58 PM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: My initial reaction to any automated edit is to break out in a rash. Can we use that image to promote mapping best practices? :-) Goal: A new local mapper in each BadHamlet Here's what I did with bike repair stations: 1) Import the data * 2) Import a note at the same spot saying this needs local input to finish the mapping. So the map got the basic data right away, plus a start on the processes of engaging a local mapper to finalize things. At the scale I used it for, it worked. Real local mappers found the things on the ground and finished the job. --- With hamlets, the automated edit is a form of improvement. Add local input and you've got a great map. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I'm in favor of a bulk edit for US hamlets within city boundaries to be retagged as place=neighbourhood I generally agree with this, as a first step. Especially if there's a followup challenge of some sort to improve the tagging with local knowledge. Many many of the hamlets in the USA data are for towns that no longer exist. Some of those names linger on as informal neighborhood names, but many don't. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
[Talk-us] Retagging hamlets in the US
What do people think about how to properly retag place=hamlet in US urban areas? My colleague Eliane rendered out a map of all hamlets in urban areas in the US: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541 I just posted how we could fix this: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/samely/diary/34541#comment29931 ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
