Re: [Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[rjgambrel]

Oops, I misspoke. It is actually a US Highway that includes a ferry.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2308439




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Re: [Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 4:15 PM Bob Gambrel  wrote:

> Paul's in depth answer of my question was very helpful. Luckily I am not
> concentrating on road/highway routes. I like the concept of:
>
> We should be moving forward towards
> all routes being tagged in a route relation so we can phase out route
> attributes on ways, freeing those up for *the way's attributes.*
>
> That intuitively makes sense. It seems to me that most routes these days
> are really a collection of ways (collected by the route relation).
>

This was *literally* a reason relations became a thing in API 0.5.  Though
the design problem being solved was mostly "The UK has Sustrans and MOT
routes and existing ref=* can't deal with both", not that "EU routes also
cross through the UK" and "the US has three national networks, at least 70
state networks, over 200 indian networks, and nearly 4000 county networks
for highways, not counting the potential for nearly the same number of the
same for cyclists".  Not a problem yet but wouldn't surprise me, especially
now that a lot of places are moving bicycle infrastructure from "nice to
have if we have money left over" to "no hurry, 20 years ago is fine" thanks
to COVID19, that we might need to make route=bicycle relations have the
same network=* tags as route=road, down the line.


> I explained this to some city planners, newer to OSM than I was, with
> three examples (an Interstate that actually includes a Ferry, clearly not
> part of a single paved way, a bus route traversing many different streets,
> and the MRT (Miss. River Trail) which consists of streets, highways, bike
> paths, ...)
>

There's an Interstate that traverses a ferry??  I knew of two drawbridges
and six traffic signals but a ferry's a new one on me.  But yeah, routes
are frequently highway=* agnostic within the limits of the type of vehicle
that the route is intended for, for the most part (granted, Historic Route
66 has at least one staircase in it now).
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Re: [Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[Bob Gambrel]

Paul's in depth answer of my question was very helpful. Luckily I am not
concentrating on road/highway routes. I like the concept of:

We should be moving forward towards
all routes being tagged in a route relation so we can phase out route
attributes on ways, freeing those up for *the way's attributes.*

That intuitively makes sense. It seems to me that most routes these days
are really a collection of ways (collected by the route relation). I
explained this to some city planners, newer to OSM than I was, with three
examples (an Interstate that actually includes a Ferry, clearly not part of
a single paved way, a bus route traversing many different streets, and the
MRT (Miss. River Trail) which consists of streets, highways, bike paths,
...)

Keeping the data important to the way on the way and the data relevant to
the route in the relation is perfect. (Well at least very good)
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Re: [Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:46 PM Bob Gambrel  wrote:

> Paul Johnson says
>
> Ultimately consider adding a route relation with network=US:NSFR:Forest
> Name:FH/FR as well so we can finally kill off route tagging on things that
> are not routes.
>
>
> I am not doing any mapping for forest roads, but the above caught my eye.
> I am doing a lot of bike path/trail mapping as well as mapping cycle
> routes. I understand the idea of adding a route relation. What confuses me
> a little above is:
>
>  so we can finally kill off route tagging on things that
> are not routes.
>
> I think you might be saying that there are ways that seem to have a route
> name in the name field and they shouldn't. Instead they should have the way
> be part of a relation that has the name of the route.
>

Route name and route ref.  Pennsylvania and Oregon (at a minimum) have
state highways and state routes, that are not always (particularly on older
roads) the same.  Oregon, for example, has a lot of state highways, *all of
which are numbered*, that have no state route, and most of the 20 or so
oldest routes now traverse multiple different highways, with only routes
created after about 2000 having the same highway and route number
consistently and no plans to retcon.  Right now, practice is to ignore the
ref (even if no route traverses it) that the state actually uses for the
way, and instead ref=* gets tagged with the route that traverses over it
(or leave it off if there is no route).  This isn't orthogonal, *at all*,
with how anything else is tagged.  The ref=* on the way in this case, is
not an attribute that belongs to the way.  It belongs to the route.  I get
*why* it's that way, but the introduction of relations as a basic primitive
10 years ago obsoleted this practice.  We should be moving forward towards
all routes being tagged in a route relation so we can phase out route
attributes on ways, freeing those up for *the way's attributes.*

Please be patient if I am using some wrong terms above. Still learning
> the OSM lingo. I am really just trying to understand the last part of what
> you said. (Especially if you think it might apply to cycle routes too)
>

No problem.  The takeaway is, yes, go ahead and use the existing ref=*
practice on the way, but please also create the route relation if it
doesn't exist yet.
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Re: [Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[Bob Gambrel]

Paul Johnson says

Ultimately consider adding a route relation with network=US:NSFR:Forest
Name:FH/FR as well so we can finally kill off route tagging on things that
are not routes.


I am not doing any mapping for forest roads, but the above caught my eye. I
am doing a lot of bike path/trail mapping as well as mapping cycle routes.
I understand the idea of adding a route relation. What confuses me a little
above is:

 so we can finally kill off route tagging on things that
are not routes.

I think you might be saying that there are ways that seem to have a route
name in the name field and they shouldn't. Instead they should have the way
be part of a relation that has the name of the route.

Please be patient if I am using some wrong terms above. Still learning
the OSM lingo. I am really just trying to understand the last part of what
you said. (Especially if you think it might apply to cycle routes too)
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Re: [Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 3:24 PM brad  wrote:

> On 6/6/20 9:24 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:24 AM Mike Thompson  wrote:
>
>> ref:
>> The wiki states that these should be ref=FR + . In
>> practice:
>> * ref:usfs=FS + 
>> * ref=FS + 
>> Most of the changesets that added a "ref:usfs" tag include a very helpful
>> comment that this issue was discussed on the tagging list at sometime in
>> the past and that this was the consensus, e.g. [2].  If this continues to
>> be the consensus, can we change the wiki?
>>
>>
> ref=FS 
>
> Ultimately consider adding a route relation with network=US:NSFR:Forest
> Name:FH/FR as well so we can finally kill off route tagging on things that
> are not routes.  Not sure we really need the FH/FR distinction, however,
> since within the same forest, they're all the same network: The 2 digit
> routes are major, the 3 digits are minor (like parking lots and
> campgrounds) and the 4 digits are usually only usable by log trucks and
> 4x4s.  Trails are another matter.
>
> I prefer ref=FS xxx   too.   I think the tagging discussion that suggested
> ref:usfs was using that for the route relation.
>

 Why would that even be necessary to have a ref:usfs subkey on a route
relation, though?  It's already in the NFSR network.
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Re: [Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[brad]

On 6/6/20 9:24 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:24 AM Mike Thompson > wrote:


ref:
The wiki states that these should be ref=FR + . In practice:
* ref:usfs=FS + 
* ref=FS + 
Most of the changesets that added a "ref:usfs" tag include a very
helpful comment that this issue was discussed on the tagging list
at sometime in the past and that this was the consensus, e.g.
[2].  If this continues to be the consensus, can we change the wiki?


ref=FS 

Ultimately consider adding a route relation with 
network=US:NSFR:Forest Name:FH/FR as well so we can finally kill off 
route tagging on things that are not routes.  Not sure we really need 
the FH/FR distinction, however, since within the same forest, they're 
all the same network: The 2 digit routes are major, the 3 digits are 
minor (like parking lots and campgrounds) and the 4 digits are usually 
only usable by log trucks and 4x4s.  Trails are another matter.


I prefer ref=FS xxx   too.   I think the tagging discussion that 
suggested ref:usfs was using that for the route relation.
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Re: [Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jun 6, 2020 at 8:24 AM Mike Thompson  wrote:

> ref:
> The wiki states that these should be ref=FR + . In
> practice:
> * ref:usfs=FS + 
> * ref=FS + 
> Most of the changesets that added a "ref:usfs" tag include a very helpful
> comment that this issue was discussed on the tagging list at sometime in
> the past and that this was the consensus, e.g. [2].  If this continues to
> be the consensus, can we change the wiki?
>
>
ref=FS 

Ultimately consider adding a route relation with network=US:NSFR:Forest
Name:FH/FR as well so we can finally kill off route tagging on things that
are not routes.  Not sure we really need the FH/FR distinction, however,
since within the same forest, they're all the same network: The 2 digit
routes are major, the 3 digits are minor (like parking lots and
campgrounds) and the 4 digits are usually only usable by log trucks and
4x4s.  Trails are another matter.
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Re: [Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[Max Erickson]

Abbreviations are predominant in US highway refs, so I think that it is
fine to use one in USFS road refs.

At some point in time I had used ref=USFS xxx but changed stuff that I had
edited to ref=FS xxx. The usage of FS in Michigan is largely a product of
either my editing directly or my discussion with other mappers (and looking
at Overpass Turbo and Taginfo, something like 45% of all refs with the
string "FS" in them...).

I don't remember really, but I think I started with USFS because it was
nearly entirely unambiguous, and then I switched because the usage of FS
was more common.

ref:usfs=FS looks wrong to me, if usfs is in the key, then it doesn't
belong repeated in the value (unless there's 2 reference systems in use,
which there are, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Highway is not the
same thing as the Forest Service logging roads)).

The use of ref:usfs also has the problem that it hides useful data on
general purpose maps that don't specifically use it.

If ref is to be used, I expect you won't arrive at any real consensus about
what to use as a prefix, because it's easy to have an opinion about it
(bikeshedding basically). I guess if enough people pick one we might get
close.


Max
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[Talk-us] USFS Roads - name and ref

[Mike Thompson]

Hello,

This question concerns ways maintained/operated by the US Forest Service
(USFS) and signed with vertical  markers, e.g. [0]. These signs typically
display a three digit number, with an optional decimal point (dot/period)
followed by another number and/or a letter.

Name:
The wiki [1] states that these should name=Forest Road + .
In practice, either from other mappers, or from the original TIGER import,
I have seen:
* just what is on the sign
* Fire Road + 
* FR + 
* Forest Development Road + 
* FDR + 
* Forest Service Road + 
* FS + 
* United States Forest Service Road + 
* ...(many more variations)
Does the wiki reflect the consensus of the US mapper community (which I am
part of) on how these should be named, or should they be named in some
other manner? To complicated matters, it seems that the Forest Service
itself is not consistent and the exact wording of a name will depend on
what brochure, map board, or dataset from the Forest Service you are
looking at. I don't really have a preference, except to say 1) Many of the
above examples include abbreviations, which OSM generally refrains from,
and 2) I think we should be consistent.

ref:
The wiki states that these should be ref=FR + . In
practice:
* ref:usfs=FS + 
* ref=FS + 
Most of the changesets that added a "ref:usfs" tag include a very helpful
comment that this issue was discussed on the tagging list at sometime in
the past and that this was the consensus, e.g. [2].  If this continues to
be the consensus, can we change the wiki?


Mike




[0] Left sign in this image:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:US_Forest_Service_Vertical_Marker.png
[1]
wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/United_States_roads_tagging#Tagging_Forest_Roads
[2] https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/73470389
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