Re: [Talk-us] Ferries - ferry
Hi again, Nathan: Clifford Snow is working on this, too, at least identifying Washington State ferries without a duration tag. I know you two know each other (he did introduce us last summer!), so a heads up that you might want to coordinate with him to not overlap effort. While it is certainly true that "Street" is our middle name, I certainly do like the way our "additional" transportation modes and networks (bikes, trains, ferries, bus routes...) are being added and improved in OSM! Happy mapping, Steve ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
Am 08/nov/2013 um 18:15 schrieb Ivan Komarov jkoma...@gmail.com: I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly. There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while, but on the long run it would work better, I believe. +1 cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure how I'd tag the queue lot. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but to bring more consistency to OSM in general. That's fair enough. I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than the documented semantics. So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be highway=unclassified. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but to bring more consistency to OSM in general. That's fair enough. I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than the documented semantics. So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be highway=unclassified. pgpbNKyPQ1Xwl.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly. There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while, but on the long run it would work better, I believe. On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure how I'd tag the queue lot. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but to bring more consistency to OSM in general. That's fair enough. I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than the documented semantics. So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be highway=unclassified. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
Shouldn't we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than the talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so we should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we want to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag. -Compdude From: Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM To: Paul Johnson Cc: talk-us Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly. There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while, but on the long run it would work better, I believe. On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure how I'd tag the queue lot. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but to bring more consistency to OSM in general. That's fair enough. I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than the documented semantics. So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be highway=unclassified. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
Probably, but in this conversation's defense, Washington State has the world's largest ferry fleet by far, so it's much more a Washingtonism than anything. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote: Shouldn’t we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than the talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so we should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we want to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag. -Compdude *From:* Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM *To:* Paul Johnson *Cc:* talk-us *Subject:* Re: [Talk-us] Ferries I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly. There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while, but on the long run it would work better, I believe. On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure how I'd tag the queue lot. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but to bring more consistency to OSM in general. That's fair enough. I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than the documented semantics. So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be highway=unclassified. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
If we have consensus on what the US thinks is appropriate, then I agree that it belongs on the tag list. Does anyone have objection to bringing a proposal to create a highway=ferry_link tag? I'd especially like to hear from people working with routing (that's you Telenav) Is ferry_link the appropriate tag? The ferries I ride all have a queue area. Do we tag the queues like parking lots with a way through the queue? On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Probably, but in this conversation's defense, Washington State has the world's largest ferry fleet by far, so it's much more a Washingtonism than anything. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.comwrote: Shouldn’t we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than the talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so we should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we want to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag. -Compdude *From:* Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM *To:* Paul Johnson *Cc:* talk-us *Subject:* Re: [Talk-us] Ferries I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly. There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while, but on the long run it would work better, I believe. On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure how I'd tag the queue lot. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but to bring more consistency to OSM in general. That's fair enough. I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than the documented semantics. So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be highway=unclassified. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
But let's not forget that there's lots of ferries in Europe too! This would not just be a tag for use here on ferry routes here in the Salish Sea, but also ones in other parts of the world. -Compdude From: Paul Johnson [mailto:ba...@ursamundi.org] Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 6:20 PM To: talk-us Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries Probably, but in this conversation's defense, Washington State has the world's largest ferry fleet by far, so it's much more a Washingtonism than anything. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote: Shouldn't we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than the talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so we should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we want to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag. -Compdude From: Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM To: Paul Johnson Cc: talk-us Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly. There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while, but on the long run it would work better, I believe. On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure how I'd tag the queue lot. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but to bring more consistency to OSM in general. That's fair enough. I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than the documented semantics. So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be highway=unclassified. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
Re the ferry waiting areas, I've been tagging each lane as an individual way with the tags highway=service, the lane # in the name=* tag, and have made it be one-way. I have also done this for each lane going into the tollbooths. See the Mukilteo ferry terminal [1] and Edmonds ferry terminal [2] for examples. I was not the first to do this; it was previously done at some of BC Ferries' terminals, for example take a look at the Tsawwassen terminal [3] and the Horseshoe Bay terminal. [4] What do you guys think of this way of mapping ferry terminals. I know it's kinda going off on a tangent, but I just thought it would be good to bring up. Also, what is the proper way of mapping ferry routes when the ferries have multiple berths/ docks at a terminal (and they use whatever one they feel like), like in the Horseshoe Bay example, and many BC Ferries' major terminals for that matter? Martijn, could you do a routing test on these ferry routes and tell me how it works? The wiki says to connect ferry routes directly to a road on land rather than another ferry route way in order to ensure proper routing. -Compdude Links: [1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/47.94864/-122.30474 [2] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/47.81123/-122.38429 http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/47.81123/-122.38429layers=N [3] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/49.0074/-123.1309 [4] http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/49.3721/-123.2745 From: Clifford Snow [mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us] Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 7:19 PM To: Paul Johnson Cc: talk-us Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries If we have consensus on what the US thinks is appropriate, then I agree that it belongs on the tag list. Does anyone have objection to bringing a proposal to create a highway=ferry_link tag? I'd especially like to hear from people working with routing (that's you Telenav) Is ferry_link the appropriate tag? The ferries I ride all have a queue area. Do we tag the queues like parking lots with a way through the queue? On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: Probably, but in this conversation's defense, Washington State has the world's largest ferry fleet by far, so it's much more a Washingtonism than anything. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:17 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote: Shouldn't we be discussing this on the tagging mailing list rather than the talk-us mailing list? After all, ferries are all around the world, so we should discuss this at the tagging mailing list rather than here if we want to introduce a new highway=ferry_link tag. -Compdude From: Ivan Komarov [mailto:jkoma...@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 9:16 AM To: Paul Johnson Cc: talk-us Subject: Re: [Talk-us] Ferries I'd vote for introducing a new tag, that is highway=ferry_link, rather than trying to use an existing one that does not describe the object correctly. There used to be and there will be disputes on this topic unless we have it fixed. Introducing a new tagging scheme will cause some issues for a while, but on the long run it would work better, I believe. On 8 Nov 2013 07:04, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: I think highway=unclassified works, particularly if it's the fire lane used for exiting the ferry that's always kept free of the ferry queue; not sure how I'd tag the queue lot. On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but to bring more consistency to OSM in general. That's fair enough. I got the wrong impression earlier (perhaps my misreading) that this was about a particular routing engine rather than the documented semantics. So perhaps highway=ferry_link, or perhaps the roads should just be highway=unclassified. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
2013/11/7 Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, +1, there is also service=alley which some mappers use also in Europe, for narrow alleys in medieval towns (usually you can't drive there with a car, or hardly, but in Italy there is normally no restriction and you could enter with a small car and many do so, and even more enter with motorbikes). But still I agree, you won't use this for routing in the middle of a route, it would only make sense to take these at the start or end. cheers, Martin ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It turns out that this happens because some of the access roads to these ferries are tagged as highway=service, sometimes service=driveway. For various reasons we don't want to route folks through service roads, so this poses a challenge. Here's an example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.42169/-123.37231 Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com writes: It seems wrong to adjust tagging because of a particular router. I would say that you should fix your routing. If they are service roads, but you don't want to use them, then you get the route your policy led to. I'm guessing you are trying to prevent routes that shortcut through service roads when such usage would be frowned on. But at the same time, if you need to get someplace accessible only via a service road, that's what you have to do. Perhaps your router should just have a higher cost for service roads (somewhat fair, given lower speeds?), or a prohibition on regular-service-regular, such that regular-service-ferry is ok. A very big +1 to this. Posing a challenge to the construction of an accurate routing algorithm is a poor excuse to propose rippling through data changes for what would essentially be a one-off convenience. Greg Troxel's suggestion about regular-service-regular and regular-service-ferry sounds perfectly reasonable and can certainly be made to work for this particular case. Inside of a routing algorithm is exactly where this sort of decision-making belongs, not by making data changes that are more convenient for it. SteveA California ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 8:49 AM, stevea stevea...@softworkers.com wrote: A very big +1 to this. Posing a challenge to the construction of an accurate routing algorithm is a poor excuse to propose rippling through data changes for what would essentially be a one-off convenience. Greg Troxel's suggestion about regular-service-regular and regular-service-ferry sounds perfectly reasonable and can certainly be made to work for this particular case. Inside of a routing algorithm is exactly where this sort of decision-making belongs, not by making data changes that are more convenient for it. I disagree that we are making one-off change. What we are doing is making the map more useful. When adding an access ramp to a motorway we call it a motorway link. The waiting area for ferries is a similar feature of a ferry route. It certainly isn't a service road except in a broad sense. There was agreement to tag the service=ferry to solve the problem. That wasn't my first choice but it works. There is a push in OSM to include addresses. One of the big advantages we gain is the ability to route from door to door. For that we need ferry routing. Living in an area with one of the largest ferry systems in the world[1], I appreciate efforts to solve the problem. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Ferries -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
On Thu, Nov 7, 2013, at 06:30 PM, Clifford Snow wrote: I disagree that we are making one-off change. What we are doing is making the map more useful. When adding an access ramp to a motorway we call it a motorway link. The waiting area for ferries is a similar feature of a ferry route. It certainly isn't a service road except in a broad sense. There was agreement to tag the service=ferry to solve the problem. That wasn't my first choice but it works. How about highway=ferry_link then? -- Shawn K. Quinn skqu...@rushpost.com ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
OK, Clifford, I take your point very well. It may not be one-off, but when routing algorithms chase data in this way, we CAN say it comes close to tagging for the algorithm and is therefore to be discouraged. But this might be considered a sharpening up of the data in a perfectly valid way which also supports routing algorithms. How about a sane tagging scheme that will capture highway=ferry_link similar to highway=motorway_link? That's off-the-cuff, but might be enough. I think there was talk of this (or something similar) earlier, I'd have to go back in the threads and look. Concomitantly, routing algorithms can and should pay attention to said tagging scheme. SteveA California On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 8:49 AM, stevea mailto:stevea...@softworkers.comstevea...@softworkers.com wrote: A very big +1 to this. Posing a challenge to the construction of an accurate routing algorithm is a poor excuse to propose rippling through data changes for what would essentially be a one-off convenience. Greg Troxel's suggestion about regular-service-regular and regular-service-ferry sounds perfectly reasonable and can certainly be made to work for this particular case. Inside of a routing algorithm is exactly where this sort of decision-making belongs, not by making data changes that are more convenient for it. I disagree that we are making one-off change. What we are doing is making the map more useful. When adding an access ramp to a motorway we call it a motorway link. The waiting area for ferries is a similar feature of a ferry route. It certainly isn't a service road except in a broad sense. There was agreement to tag the service=ferry to solve the problem. That wasn't my first choice but it works. There is a push in OSM to include addresses. One of the big advantages we gain is the ability to route from door to door. For that we need ferry routing. Living in an area with one of the largest ferry systems in the world[1], I appreciate efforts to solve the problem. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Ferrieshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_State_Ferries -- Clifford___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It turns out that this happens because some of the access roads to these ferries are tagged as highway=service, sometimes service=driveway. For various reasons we don't want to route folks through service roads, so this poses a challenge. Here's an example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.42169/-123.37231 It seems wrong to adjust tagging because of a particular router. I would say that you should fix your routing. If they are service roads, but you don't want to use them, then you get the route your policy led to. I'm guessing you are trying to prevent routes that shortcut through service roads when such usage would be frowned on. But at the same time, if you need to get someplace accessible only via a service road, that's what you have to do. Perhaps your router should just have a higher cost for service roads (somewhat fair, given lower speeds?), or a prohibition on regular-service-regular, such that regular-service-ferry is ok. pgpSyON7exj95.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
It's the other way around, really. We're adjusting our routing logic to adapt to OSM. Referring to the wiki, a service road is 'Generally for access to a building, motorway service station, beach, campsite, industrial estate, business park, etc.' - so by that definition, a service road would typically only occur at the beginning or the end of the route, and that's what we tell our routing engine to do. If it were to turn out that this definition of what a service road is, is in fact not how it is generally used in mapping, then we'd need to revisit the wiki (and our routing rules) - but from what I have seen in my pretty extensive mapping experience in the U.S., the definition generally holds. So it makes sense to me to suggest a different tagging for these ferry access routes, not only (and not even primarily) to satisfy our or any third party logic using the data, but to bring more consistency to OSM in general. On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 5:47 PM, Greg Troxel g...@ir.bbn.com wrote: Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.com writes: It turns out that this happens because some of the access roads to these ferries are tagged as highway=service, sometimes service=driveway. For various reasons we don't want to route folks through service roads, so this poses a challenge. Here's an example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/48.42169/-123.37231 It seems wrong to adjust tagging because of a particular router. I would say that you should fix your routing. If they are service roads, but you don't want to use them, then you get the route your policy led to. I'm guessing you are trying to prevent routes that shortcut through service roads when such usage would be frowned on. But at the same time, if you need to get someplace accessible only via a service road, that's what you have to do. Perhaps your router should just have a higher cost for service roads (somewhat fair, given lower speeds?), or a prohibition on regular-service-regular, such that regular-service-ferry is ok. ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- -- Martijn van Exel OSM data specialist Telenav http://www.osm.org/user/mvexel http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Mvexel http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?mvexel ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
Evin - a footway would not affect our routing results as those would only include ways navigable by motorized vehicles. Or perhaps I am not understanding what you did. Clifford - this would hopefully also answer your question about walking routing: currently, we don't.) Clifford, as for distinguishing between passenger-only ferries - that would be something that would ideally be regulated with access tags, do you agree? So a an access road to a car ferry could then be: highway=service service=ferry and the ferry itself could then be: route=ferry ref=... foot=yes motorcar=yes motorcycle=yes bicycle=yes What we haven't covered is implied access for ferries. My best guess would be that foot=yes could be implied (i.e. only if there is no pedestrian access would we tag foot=no, and foot=yes would be optional). On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 5:21 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote: If you already tried routing through those two ferry routes, I'd suggest trying again, since I just added a footway onto the passenger terminals. Previous routing tests would have produced inaccurate results. -Compdude On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting idea, but since there's not a whole ton of ferry terminals worldwide, I don't know if it would be worthwhile to create a whole new highway=* tag just for this. I don't really mind the service=ferry tag; it would be less complicated in getting it to render. If service=ferry tag is acceptable to everyone, what about passenger only ferries? For example, http://osm.org/go/WIdFBwTUx-- includes both car ferry, and passenager only ferries here in Seattle. How does Telenav do walking routing? -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch -- -- Martijn van Exel OSM data specialist Telenav http://www.osm.org/user/mvexel http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Mvexel http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?mvexel ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.comwrote: Evin - a footway would not affect our routing results as those would only include ways navigable by motorized vehicles. Or perhaps I am not understanding what you did. Clifford - this would hopefully also answer your question about walking routing: currently, we don't.) Oh, I thought that your routing tests were involving walking routes, too, rather than just routing with a car. That's why I mentioned that I added the footways on the ferry docks. -Compdude ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
If you already tried routing through those two ferry routes, I'd suggest trying again, since I just added a footway onto the passenger terminals. Previous routing tests would have produced inaccurate results. -Compdude On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:56 AM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.uswrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.comwrote: Interesting idea, but since there's not a whole ton of ferry terminals worldwide, I don't know if it would be worthwhile to create a whole new highway=* tag just for this. I don't really mind the service=ferry tag; it would be less complicated in getting it to render. If service=ferry tag is acceptable to everyone, what about passenger only ferries? For example, http://osm.org/go/WIdFBwTUx-- includes both car ferry, and passenager only ferries here in Seattle. How does Telenav do walking routing? -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
Interesting idea, but since there's not a whole ton of ferry terminals worldwide, I don't know if it would be worthwhile to create a whole new highway=* tag just for this. I don't really mind the service=ferry tag; it would be less complicated in getting it to render. -Compdude On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 7:45 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.uswrote: On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.comwrote: When I made relations for all the state highways in Washington, I included the ferry routes and the ferry access roads in the highway route relation. I also have done some edits to ferry terminals, adding a way for each lane in the ferry waiting lot. This was previously done at some ferry terminals in BC. I agree with tagging the ferry terminal roads with service=ferry. The service=ferry works for me, but I'd like to point out that it isn't consistent with other highway tags linking different road segments. The wiki describes motorway_link, primary_link, etc. Rather than describe the normally short road segment as a service road, why not highway=ferry_link? service=ferry does have the advantage that the render wouldn't stumble. -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:15 AM, Evin Fairchild evindf...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting idea, but since there's not a whole ton of ferry terminals worldwide, I don't know if it would be worthwhile to create a whole new highway=* tag just for this. I don't really mind the service=ferry tag; it would be less complicated in getting it to render. If service=ferry tag is acceptable to everyone, what about passenger only ferries? For example, http://osm.org/go/WIdFBwTUx-- includes both car ferry, and passenager only ferries here in Seattle. How does Telenav do walking routing? -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
Re: [Talk-us] Ferries
When I made relations for all the state highways in Washington, I included the ferry routes and the ferry access roads in the highway route relation. I also have done some edits to ferry terminals, adding a way for each lane in the ferry waiting lot. This was previously done at some ferry terminals in BC. I agree with tagging the ferry terminal roads with service=ferry. -Compdude On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 9:31 AM, Martijn van Exel marti...@telenav.comwrote: Clifford, I actually raised that possibility in the discussion we had as well! I would prefer (and think it's more elegant) if there were a route relation covering both the access roads and the ferry route itself, as we use route relations extensively already. Is there an established place in the route relation network= hierarchy for ferry routes? It looks like they are at the same level as land-based state highways, so they would be route=ferry, network=US:WA? Martijn On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 10:57 PM, Clifford Snow cliff...@snowandsnow.us wrote: I check one of Seattle's ferry terminals. service roads connect city streets to the ferry route. Washington State assigns these routes as highways with a number. Each of the service roads has an ref (eg. ref: WA 305) associated with the routes. I wonder how this impacts routing? For example, http://osm.org/go/WIdFBesd9-- -- Clifford OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us -- -- Martijn van Exel OSM data specialist Telenav http://www.osm.org/user/mvexel http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Mvexel http://hdyc.neis-one.org/?mvexel ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us ___ Talk-us mailing list Talk-us@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us