Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Ian Butler  wrote:

> Another possibility for state park boundary shp files might be the
> Oklahoma Protected Areas Database at the Oklahoma Biological Survey.
> I have not seen this data; but I worked on the original public lands layer
> for the Oklahoma GAP project.
>
> http://biosurvey.ou.edu/PAD/PAD.html
>
> "PAD-OK is an aggregated dataset, incorporating data as provided by land
> owners, administrators, or best available sources.
> Inconsistencies in data quality and scale may be present. Because of
> possible data inconsistencies, PAD-OK is best for landscape
> level analysis (1:100,000 or greater)..."
>

Excellent!  I'm able to read this.  It's not *quite* in alignment, but it's
close enough that I can conflate it easily on a case by case basis.  But,
looking at
http://www.ou.edu/content/publicaffairs/webpolicies/termsofuse.html, I'm
wondering if this is even a dataset that we can use, or if it's just
typical boilerplate that is nullified by the Open Records Act.
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Paul Johnson]

I have received word back from Todd Fagin at the University of Oklahoma and
he says that yes, the data is in the public domain, though he would like
attribution on our contributors page (NBD, already done at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Contributors#Oklahoma).  I'm not fully
ready to do a full import on it, though this does open me up to being able
to use this as part of the Wild Nights mapping project to get that ready
for our conbook as a test case around the Robber's Cave Wildlife Area and
Robber's Cave State Resort.

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Ian Butler  wrote:

> Another possibility for state park boundary shp files might be the
> Oklahoma Protected Areas Database at the Oklahoma Biological Survey.
> I have not seen this data; but I worked on the original public lands layer
> for the Oklahoma GAP project.
>
> http://biosurvey.ou.edu/PAD/PAD.html
>
> "PAD-OK is an aggregated dataset, incorporating data as provided by land
> owners, administrators, or best available sources.
> Inconsistencies in data quality and scale may be present. Because of
> possible data inconsistencies, PAD-OK is best for landscape
> level analysis (1:100,000 or greater)..."
>
> Contact Todd Fagin: tfagin at ou dot edu for info.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> Ian Butler
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Clifford Snow]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> Excellent!  I'm able to read this.  It's not *quite* in alignment, but
> it's close enough that I can conflate it easily on a case by case basis.
> But, looking at
> http://www.ou.edu/content/publicaffairs/webpolicies/termsofuse.html, I'm
> wondering if this is even a dataset that we can use, or if it's just
> typical boilerplate that is nullified by the Open Records Act.
>

The section under copyright (below) seems to exclude use by OSM. It does
seem to be generic boilerplate to the site so they may give permission to
use the boundaries in OSM. I would recommend contacting them for permission.

*Copyright.* The content, organization, graphics, design, compilation,
magnetic translation, digital conversion and other matters related to the
Site are protected under applicable copyrights, trademarks and other
proprietary (including but not limited to intellectual property) rights.
The commercial copying, redistribution, use or publication by you of any
such matters or any part of the Site is strictly prohibited. You do not
acquire ownership rights to any content, document or other materials viewed
through the Site. The posting of information or materials on the Site does
not constitute a waiver of any right in such information and materials.

All Web sites and electronic publications must follow University and legal
standards regarding copyright. In general, Web publishers must secure
permission from the owner of the copyright when including copyrighted or
trademarked material, such as text, photographs, audio, video, graphics,
maps, or logos, and include a permission statement or disclaimer as
required by the owner of the copyright or trademark. Provisions of fair use
can allow restricted use of copyrighted materials without permission of the
copyright holder. The TEACH Act provides some extensions of fair use for
distance education. For more information on copyright, see the U.S.
Copyright Office Web site at www.copyright.gov.


Clifford

-- 
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osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Paul Johnson]

Todd Fagin at OU did confirm this mintues ago, we're good to go.

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

>
> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> Excellent!  I'm able to read this.  It's not *quite* in alignment, but
>> it's close enough that I can conflate it easily on a case by case basis.
>> But, looking at
>> http://www.ou.edu/content/publicaffairs/webpolicies/termsofuse.html, I'm
>> wondering if this is even a dataset that we can use, or if it's just
>> typical boilerplate that is nullified by the Open Records Act.
>>
>
> The section under copyright (below) seems to exclude use by OSM. It does
> seem to be generic boilerplate to the site so they may give permission to
> use the boundaries in OSM. I would recommend contacting them for permission.
>
> *Copyright.* The content, organization, graphics, design, compilation,
> magnetic translation, digital conversion and other matters related to the
> Site are protected under applicable copyrights, trademarks and other
> proprietary (including but not limited to intellectual property) rights.
> The commercial copying, redistribution, use or publication by you of any
> such matters or any part of the Site is strictly prohibited. You do not
> acquire ownership rights to any content, document or other materials viewed
> through the Site. The posting of information or materials on the Site does
> not constitute a waiver of any right in such information and materials.
>
> All Web sites and electronic publications must follow University and legal
> standards regarding copyright. In general, Web publishers must secure
> permission from the owner of the copyright when including copyrighted or
> trademarked material, such as text, photographs, audio, video, graphics,
> maps, or logos, and include a permission statement or disclaimer as
> required by the owner of the copyright or trademark. Provisions of fair use
> can allow restricted use of copyrighted materials without permission of the
> copyright holder. The TEACH Act provides some extensions of fair use for
> distance education. For more information on copyright, see the U.S.
> Copyright Office Web site at www.copyright.gov.
>
>
> Clifford
>
> --
> @osm_seattle
> osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Ian Butler]

Another possibility for state park boundary shp files might be the Oklahoma 
Protected Areas Database at the Oklahoma Biological Survey.  
I have not seen this data; but I worked on the original public lands layer for 
the Oklahoma GAP project.

http://biosurvey.ou.edu/PAD/PAD.html

"PAD-OK is an aggregated dataset, incorporating data as provided by land 
owners, administrators, or best available sources. 
Inconsistencies in data quality and scale may be present. Because of possible 
data inconsistencies, PAD-OK is best for landscape 
level analysis (1:100,000 or greater)..."

Contact Todd Fagin: tfagin at ou dot edu for info.

I hope this helps.

Ian Butler
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 3:42 PM, Kevin Kenny  wrote:

> On 01/23/2016 01:48 PM, Russ Nelson wrote:
>
>> New York courts are free to rule any way they want, but copyright
>> doesn't allow you to own facts. This is well-adjudicated in higher
>> courts.
>>
>> If you could claim a copyright on facts, you could control people's
>> speech, and the First Amendment does not allow that. The freedom of
>> factual information is very strongly protected in the US. No matter
>> what Suffolk County thinks.
>
>
This could have happened only in one of the handful of states that
> allow copyright to subsist in government works. In most states,
> government works, like those of the Federal government, are born
> in the public domain.
>

Be it as it relates to the topic at hand, ie, Oklahoma Department of
Recreation and Tourism's state park and state resort boundaries, I'm
wondering if we can get our legal involved in reviewing the situation.  I
*think*, based on this thread, the copyright argument is moot anyway under
the Oklahoma Open Records Act and ODRT's just being a stickler for
bureaucracy.

http://www.odl.state.ok.us/lawinfo/docs/2006-librarylaws-parte.pdf

What's really odd is the Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation does
offer up their boundary data directly over the web...


> I quite agree with you that it seems to contradict established law,
> and conflict with constitutional principles of both freedom
> of speech and open government, but until and unless the Supremes
> speak on it again, it's precedent in the Second Circuit.
>
> The law is an ass.


At least it's not 10th Circuit...I basically cringe every time anything
relating to technology or e-business comes up in my circuit.
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Ian Butler  wrote:

> Another possibility for state park boundary shp files might be the
> Oklahoma Protected Areas Database at the Oklahoma Biological Survey.
> I have not seen this data; but I worked on the original public lands layer
> for the Oklahoma GAP project.
>
> http://biosurvey.ou.edu/PAD/PAD.html
>
> "PAD-OK is an aggregated dataset, incorporating data as provided by land
> owners, administrators, or best available sources.
> Inconsistencies in data quality and scale may be present. Because of
> possible data inconsistencies, PAD-OK is best for landscape
> level analysis (1:100,000 or greater)..."
>
> Contact Todd Fagin: tfagin at ou dot edu for info.
>
> I hope this helps.
>

Granted, I'm at the office right now and can't do a proper vetting, but
based on the dbf available, it might just be centroids.  I'll take a look
at the SHP when I have my own system in front of me.
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Jack Burke]

You can copyright a publication of facts, too. I could publish a book called 
Ugly Red Things and copyright it. But nothing would stop you from publishing 
your own book, Red Things That I Find Ugly. 

On January 23, 2016 1:48:51 PM EST, Russ Nelson  wrote:
>Kevin Kenny writes:
>> Other localities see GIS as a profit center. In New York, at least,
>this 
>> is perfectly lawful. The Court of Appeals of the Second Circuit said
>so. 
> > (There's a circuit split on the issue, if memory serves.)
> > 
>>
>https://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-law-resources/news/court-rules-copyright-maps-does-not-offend-open-records-law
>
>You cannot copyright a fact about the world in the United States. You
>can copyright creative choices that you've made in the arrangement or
>presentation of the facts, but you cannot copyright the fact
>itself. You can copyright commentary about the facts, but you cannot
>copyright the fact itself. If an object in the world is red, you can
>call it ugly and claim a copyright on that, but you cannot claim a
>copyright in its redness. You can copyright a creative subset of
>facts, but you cannot copyright the totality of facts.
>
>New York courts are free to rule any way they want, but copyright
>doesn't allow you to own facts. This is well-adjudicated in higher
>courts.
>
>If you could claim a copyright on facts, you could control people's
>speech, and the First Amendment does not allow that. The freedom of
>factual information is very strongly protected in the US. No matter
>what Suffolk County thinks.
>
>-- 
>--my blog is athttp://blog.russnelson.com
>Crynwr supports open source software
>521 Pleasant Valley Rd. | +1 315-600-8815
>Potsdam, NY 13676-3213  | Sheepdog   
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Kevin Kenny]

On 01/23/2016 01:48 PM, Russ Nelson wrote:

New York courts are free to rule any way they want, but copyright
doesn't allow you to own facts. This is well-adjudicated in higher
courts.

If you could claim a copyright on facts, you could control people's
speech, and the First Amendment does not allow that. The freedom of
factual information is very strongly protected in the US. No matter
what Suffolk County thinks.


This being the Second Circuit, the only higher court in the US
is the US Supreme Court. The Supreme Court case that is on point is
Feist Publications, Inc., v. Rural Telephone Service Co.,
499 U.S. 340 (1991), in which it was found that the mere collection
of names and telephone numbers (and alphabetizing the names)
failed to have the creative spark needed to make the content
subject to copyright.

The Second Circuit distinguished the case at hand from _Feist_
in that converting metes and bounds to a drawn map requires
considerable interpretation, and enough creativity that copyright
can subsist in the GIS work product.

According to the court's reasoning, you still have your freedom of
speech. You're still free to get permission from a landowner, enter
on the land, make your own measurements and draw your own map - so
you're free to share the facts. You're also free to go to the county
courthouse, look up a parcel in the tax rolls, and proclaim the
metes and bounds from the housetops. But the county's GIS files,
says the Second Circuit, remain the property of the county, and so
you are not free to share them nor to create derivative works from them.

This could have happened only in one of the handful of states that
allow copyright to subsist in government works. In most states,
government works, like those of the Federal government, are born
in the public domain.

I quite agree with you that it seems to contradict established law,
and conflict with constitutional principles of both freedome
of speech and open government, but until and unless the Supremes
speak on it again, it's precedent in the Second Circuit.

The law is an ass.

--
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Kevin Kenny]

On 01/21/2016 04:32 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:


On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 8:55 AM, Paul Johnson > wrote:


Would it be possible to get some advice on how to best submit this
form for the outlines Oklahoma's state parks?  I'm not quite sure
where "using the public record to assist in contributing to
OpenStreetMap" lies on the binary option "personal" or
"commercial" use, and ODRT basically said, "You want to know where
the state park boundaries are? File a FOIA Request..."  Who says
red states favor small government? /s


Filling out the form I would definitely indicate commercial use, but 
that could still lead to licensing issues.


I ran into the same thing in Arizona, give me money and we'll give you 
data. I did a survey [1] of Washington County's, most have portals to 
download GIS data, but some are like Oklahoma, no way they'll let you 
have the data you paid for. (I'll let you guess how they vote.)


We all picture Oklahoma as a big open prairie, but having been there I 
know that's not true. It's unlikely a mapper could take a gps device 
to the perceived edges of parks to map them. Is it worth considering 
applying for a grant to obtain the data? Park boundaries are not like 
roads which can easily be added from a survey. Formally requesting 
them using grant money could help getting the correct licensing for 
import into OSM. Otherwise, there could be licensing problems.


Clifford

[1] 
https://glassman.cartodb.com/viz/68d4aa30-97f0-11e5-92ce-0e3a376473ab/public_map
One issue that a number of states have is that they contracted out the 
production of the GIS files, and unwisely entered into contracts that 
allow them to redistribute the data only on the contractor's terms. They 
couldn't agree to ODBL even if they wanted to.


Other localities see GIS as a profit center. In New York, at least, this 
is perfectly lawful. The Court of Appeals of the Second Circuit said so. 
(There's a circuit split on the issue, if memory serves.)


https://www.rcfp.org/browse-media-law-resources/news/court-rules-copyright-maps-does-not-offend-open-records-law


--
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Eric Ladner]

That seems unusual.  Most states have a GIS or Geospatial portal where most
of that information is easily downloadable.

E

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:

> Would it be possible to get some advice on how to best submit this form
> for the outlines Oklahoma's state parks?  I'm not quite sure where "using
> the public record to assist in contributing to OpenStreetMap" lies on the
> binary option "personal" or "commercial" use, and ODRT basically said, "You
> want to know where the state park boundaries are?  File a FOIA Request..."
>  Who says red states favor small government? /s
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Don Shafer 
> Date: Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:19 AM
> Subject: State Park Boundary shp file
> To: "ba...@ursamundi.org" 
>
>
> Hi Paul,
>
>
>
> Don Shafer with the Oklahoma Tourism and Recreation Department.
>
>
>
> It has been brought to my attention that you have requested a boundary
> shape file of the State Parks.
>
>
>
> I’m sending our open records request document for you to fill out and send
> back to me and I will see that is gets to our Agencies General Council, who
> can make that determination.
>
>
>
> Thank you
>
> Don Shafer
>
>
>
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Re: [Talk-us] Fwd: State Park Boundary shp file

[Paul Johnson]

We have one, but only has centroids and already imported from GNIS.

This region's a little weird on information access...for example to get
addresses, I'd have to drive to each of the 77 counties and pay $75 each to
get the address databases for the whole state (so the better chunk of $6k
before getting into gas money and time)...which may or may not end up in a
format I can even read.  At which point, it'd be easier try to collect
every address by hand (a topic that's been covered twice now on the okgis
mailing list).

On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 1:14 PM, Eric Ladner  wrote:

> That seems unusual.  Most states have a GIS or Geospatial portal where
> most of that information is easily downloadable.
>
> E
>
> On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:58 AM Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> Would it be possible to get some advice on how to best submit this form
>> for the outlines Oklahoma's state parks?  I'm not quite sure where "using
>> the public record to assist in contributing to OpenStreetMap" lies on the
>> binary option "personal" or "commercial" use, and ODRT basically said, "You
>> want to know where the state park boundaries are?  File a FOIA Request..."
>>  Who says red states favor small government? /s
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Don Shafer 
>> Date: Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 10:19 AM
>> Subject: State Park Boundary shp file
>> To: "ba...@ursamundi.org" 
>>
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>>
>>
>> Don Shafer with the Oklahoma Tourism and Recreation Department.
>>
>>
>>
>> It has been brought to my attention that you have requested a boundary
>> shape file of the State Parks.
>>
>>
>>
>> I’m sending our open records request document for you to fill out and
>> send back to me and I will see that is gets to our Agencies General
>> Council, who can make that determination.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you
>>
>> Don Shafer
>>
>>
>>
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>
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