Re: [Tango-L] No dancing before the music
anton So it's not the nuevo aspect of Tango music I dislike. It's the bastardisation of a music genre to appease those dancers who don't like Tango music. /anton Anton - Instead of just complaining, why not organize an all classic tango night in your local community and see what kind of crowd you draw? If it is enough to pay the studio rent and provides enough dancers to make the night interesting, your problem is solved. No appeasement required. OTOH, if you end up unable to pay the rent or with only 6 or 8 dancers, you may wish to reconsider. In any event, it sounds like you are complaining when you could be doing. Just a thought. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] No dancing before the music
antonYou have labeled Tango classic tango. To me there is Tango or non Tango. /anton Anton: Defining the dance strictly by the music creates a very slippery slope. Tell me - what is tango? Is it only OT Victor and the Old Guard? Does it move forward in time to D'Arienzo (who still played a lot of 2/4 time just as did the old guard)? What about the Golden Age orchestras that played primarily in 4/4 rather than 2/4? Perhaps tango only means Old Guard and Golden Age? What about D'Arienzo of the '50s? Or later years DiSarli. On what day did they quit playing tango and start playing non-tango? Piazzolla was a bandoneon player in Troilo's orchestra. Did he play tango when he played with Triolo? And on what day did Piazzolla quit playing tango? Etc. I don't get black and white. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Beginners and milongas
alex Most fail to see tango in its social light - that it is a social dance - a social experience. Tango has its own culture. (Some have called it a cult.) Beginner classes often fail in not teaching or conveying the other aspects of tango (beyond the dance, the vocabulary, the technique) - not delving into the history, the culture, the social aspects and ultimately the (local) opportunities available to dance tango socially on a regular basis. /alex Lindy Hop is not easy. Most(?) Lindy Hoppers come in via east coast swing which is rhythmically much simpler, is (arguably) NOT the REAL swing, often teaches bad habits (giant rock steps, arm yanking and girl tossing among others) that need to be unlearned, and all sorts of other bad things. But it is easy and fun. In almost no time, people get it and are dancing and having a good time. In six months most are pretty good. Those that are inclined and able move on to Lindy and/or Balboa and/or West Coast Swing. Many are happy to be where they are, simply dancing east coast swing. Tango has a very fun, rhythmically simple, mechanism for getting people out dancing and having a good time quickly. It is called Milonga. If beginners were taught 8 to 10 basic Milonga patterns, got to walk/run around without all of the culture, the history, the expectations and the occasional outright arrogance that makes Tango simultaneously so subtle, so beautiful and so difficult, I bet that many more (in the US at least) would stick and then move on to a real study of Tango. Totally off the wall suggestion (dons flameproof attitude): What if beginners were taught Milonga, and the first, say six or so songs of the Milonga after a beginner lesson were Milonga, and the beginners were encouraged to change partners after EVERY song (I agree with Carol Shepherd's comments regarding the negative impact of tandas on beginners)? Yes, not PC and totally culturally incorrect. But it might help get dancers, especially younger dancers, having fun and dancing a lot sooner. It might even get them to stick. doug ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] beginners and milonga
Charles Theoretically, it sounds fun to start that way, but pedagogically speaking it is a little like putting the cart before the horse. /Charles Having taught dance for over 10 years now, I find that pedagogy often dictates that fun precede deep study. Nothing wrong with coasting around in the cart before you learn to ride the horse. Also, I think that because of the step-on-every-beat aspect of Milonga (ignoring traspie) I found Milonga far far easier to led as a beginner. I always knew what foot my follow was on, even if I was messing up the lead badly and even if I was failing to lead anything. I could have fun without the fear and trepidation that paralized me when I tried to dance tango. One less thing to worry about and to screw up. doug ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Keep it simple
Janice wrote: I want to cry and scream because the tango I know in Buenos Aires isn't being shared in my country. It's a crime that people get a counterfeit rather than the genuine. Perhaps you would want to comment directly to Susana Miller? So what is this tango that you are talking about. I've not been to BaAs, so perhaps you could point me at a clear video or two that you feel fairly represents the dance that you know. Thank you, Doug ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Puma Shoes
Local shoe store will gladly put dance leather on the sole. I do that to most of my dance shoes. Nice thing about future cat is that the sole has essentially no tread so the shoe store doesn't have to do any grinding. Just glue the suede, or hard leather - your choice - on the bottom. Doug ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] [OT][OT] Extreme dancing
Igor Nuevo Balboa? Hmm, looks like recorded in 30s http://youtube.com/watch?v=p4nq_tv0dSA http://youtube.com/watch?v=p4nq_tv0dSAfeature=related feature=related /Igor Yes. Is from a Soundie out of the late 30's. Igor And this is, I guess Milonguero style of the same dancing: http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uce5kEhbVGM http://youtube.com/watch?v=Uce5kEhbVGMfeature=related feature=related /Igor OK. Sorry about this, but here is a good example of modern Balboa with a fair amount of close embrace (Pure Bal) some open (Bal-Swing - kinda like Nuevo - mixed in). http://youtube.com/watch?v=lXtyWZ535NM These are neighbors of your Igor. SF. Note that everything you see is lead-follow with a minimal set of lead-follow guidelines not much different from tango's minimal set. Don't see any choreography here. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Inspiration and Imitation: role models
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7683557118247598290 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7683557118247598290q=CAPPUSSItot al=16start=0num=10so=0type=searchplindex=7 q=CAPPUSSItotal=16start=0num=10so=0type=searchplindex=7 D. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Inspiration and Imitation: role models
Don't know what happened, so lets try this again!! http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7683557118247598290q=CAPPUSSItota l=16start=0num=10so=0type=searchplindex=7 D. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] [OT?] New dance, same old issues.
I have danced Tango for only one year, but have danced Balboa (an original swing dance out of the 1930's) for many years. The parallels, and especially the discussion topics, are amazing and probably say more about human nature than dance, but just for the heck of it here is a quick list off the top of my head: Both were developed in pre-WW II times with aspects reaching back to the turn of the century. Both are danced to large bands (Big Swing Bands/Orquesta Tipicas). True believers in both dances only want to dance to recordings made in the 30's and perhaps into the 40's by the original Bands/Orquestas. Modern efforts to fully recreate the sound of the era fail due to lack of appropriate musical talent (or whatever - but they ain't the same). Both are characterized by a close embrace basic dance. The history and specifics of the dance styles are murky. Dance masters in both are passing far too fast. The masters (70-85 yeas old) are generally one dance generation removed the originators/'true masters' (a 15 year old dancer from 1935 would be nearly 90 today) True believers decry the new developments in the dances (if the masters/portenos didn't do it, it isn't really Balboa/Tango). The only way to learn is dance with the masters/portenos. Although many may be close, modern teachers don't quite have it. For those of you curious about Balboa, the following clip is of Willie Desatoff and Ann Mills dancing at a club in LA perhaps 30 years ago? I have forgotten the exact date but could recall it if pressed. Willie passed a couple of years ago but Ann, who is over 90, is still dancing. http://youtube.com/watch?v=bMBzJ8BaBr4 Doug You can flame me now or flame me later. But y'r gonna flame me. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] [OT] Men|Women|Dancing Ability [WAS Re: Don't blame your follower]
steve The song used in the Gap commercial was swing, not blues. Music for The Gap Khaki Swing comes from Louis Primaâ??s swing number, â??Jump, Jive anâ?? Wailâ??, performed by Brian Setzer and Orchestra. /steve Wait. Way off topic, but I have to jump into this. Prima did not play swing, but rather jump blues. Brian Setzer plays rock and roll with horns. Carol is a Lindy Hopper and knows her swing, and I am a Lindy Hopper/Balboa dancer and Swing DJ who has served as head DJ at National Swing events. So dont go there. :-) D. ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Boleo Contra-boleo
I'm confused. I thought: Circular boleo - I rotate woman and then stop or reverse her rotation. Free leg continues to create boleo. Circular contra-boleo - I initiate rotation and free leg remains behind creating boleo. If I understand correctly, her leg goes nowhere(!) in contra-boleo, just remains where it is, so it could not possibly hit anything. Now if at end of contra-boleo I stop her rotation with some energy, or reverse her direction, I have led a second boleo that is a regular circular boleo and leg could certainly hit something. But if I slow her down nicely, free leg just collects. I lead contra-boleo, not regular boleo, in crowded conditions because leg remains entirely within already occupied space and does not fly out into neighbors. For linear boleo, can not lead contra-boleo unless you essentially pick up woman and move her linearly through space leaving leg behind. Not easy and probably not pretty. Liner boleo appears to always require that woman is stepping and lead stops and free foot/leg continues. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Welcoming beginners to tango.
Based on discussions here, it might be useful if some of you took up Balkan folk dance, or hustle, or lindy hop, or something you know nothing about. Become rank beginner again. Maybe some of you forget what it is like to be clueless about dance and what learning process is. Is not always linear. Often very crooked. My introduction to tango was by listening to Adrian Iaies and later years of Piazzollo. Then I try to dance to them because I like to dance. Then I learn there is tango dance. Then I learn no one can possibly dance tango to later Piazzolla, or at least everyone hates to dance to later Piazzolla, or something, or maybe nothing. But I like dancing to Piazzolla. Then I learn that one must only dance to scratchy records of 30's, or not. I also learn that many, but not all, who teach are sole owners of truth. Then I learn more and more... Finally I learn I must simply decide for myself what I want and do what I can in the time I have with resources at hand which are not ideal. Very crooked path. Often learning is not just going from A to B. I am not trying to be insulting or pedantic. I do respect all on list and am sure that dancing is far better than mine. Just my 2 cents. D. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Who leads what, who follows what
THIS IS A RESEND - PLEASE DISCARD PRIOR POST. Format was HTML and lines go forever. My bad. Thank you all who responded. Comments were very helpful. In related post, No Subject - stats/personal responsibility, Trini de Pittsburgh wrote: I can see where my comment might be taken negatively, but it was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. I assumed based on his comments, perhaps mistakenly, that Doug has become a bona fide tango junkie. I took no offense at remarks Trini, and tango junkie, yes. Regular partner I dance tango maybe 12 hours per week for 1 year now. 600 hours? Sounds right. Maybe 2 hours a week just walking, maybe 2 hours practice, maybe 2 hours playing (we dont usually fall over) and 6 hours dance. Partner started year before me and is longtime ballet dancer, so I still suck and she kicks butt. Its nice she dances with me. Anyway, I learn mostly by leading and seeing what partner does. If she does what I hoped, lead was OK. If not, lead sucked I try to adjust to get what I wanted. Then I try with others not regular partner. Adjust until lead seems to work comfortably with others too. Then I walk more. I asked question because also I learn by partner executes step I feel how her body moved. Then I try to adjust lead to move her in same way I felt. So she moves and I listen to her body. We sometimes dance like this too. I didnt know if this was ever part of real tango. Oh. And for Manuel. As jazz drummer, I dont always dance to beat of music. Sometimes I comp, but I also do fills or play a line against the music. Maybe I dance 3 against 4, or 5 against 8 (5 equal steps in 8 beats of music). But _only_ with regular partner who gets it. Other women want to fight my timing. They think Im clueless and cant find the beat. Oh well. Jazzers can be a real mess. Thank you again for your kind replies. D. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Who leads what, who follows what
Steve Pastor wrote: Shall we blame Max Roach for this? I don't play, but I believe he was quite revolutionary in his approach to drumming. But, jazz parted ways with dancers when bebop became popular. So Dance background is 12 years swing partnered jazz dance. Dizzy Gillespie was pissed when people said they couldn't dance to his music, to bebop. And he was right to be. Dance to bebop is great, fun, not hard. Main problem is people think bebop too complex. Oh well. Yes, need to listen good. Still dance in 4 or 8. But sometimes dance in 5, or in 7. Not hard to do. Just listen. Partner I dance mostly to live jazz. Deal with what's really happening, not what you want to happen. Maybe you'll start a trend. Or maybe all those people who don't look like they are dancing to the music are jazz drummers, too! And maybe I really am clueless and only pretend to be in 3 or in 5. Good excuse. No? Manuel wrote: I think that you would benefit greatly from taking private lessons from a good teacher. If you still suck after all this work and practice, I'd suggest a different method for your improvement since you feel that you still dance poorly after all this time. Average at least 1 hour each week in privates with wonderful excellent teacher. But I also taught and competed nationally in my other dances, even judged at local level. I recognize dance that sucks and dance that is kick-ass. I am way not a kick-ass tango dancer. I need more years with many different partners. My regular partner is kick-ass good, but I still clunky guy. Her goodness can hide my clunkiness. Is good. But she I know. ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
Re: [Tango-L] Who leads what, who follows what
Manuel wrote: Something does not compute in this program. And more I cut out to make short. --- I think each person decides for himself what is good tango dancing. I don't judge. After all, is just dance. Is fun. Is not my work. Maybe you stop reading now if you think I try to tell anyone else what is good, what is not good. I don't do that. You decide for your self what is good, what sucks. But for me, I want to learn Tango, Vals, and Milonga. Apilado, Salon (closed open), and Nuevo (whatever - back to back?). To be elastic and smooth, but with energy, give direction but to listen. To be patient but musical, calm but dynamic. To be tender and gentle but playful and rowdy(?). To dance small on crowded floor but use whole floor if empty. To walk with things to keep always woman on-axis, but also colgadas, volcadas and things to take woman off-axis. To do ganchos, wraps, traps, boleos, energy moves, usw. To lead and do all things clearly with balance and precision and accuracy and for the music. To make partner laugh and have fun. This is not serious, is only dance. Then, I throw all away. All. And just dance with respect for music, for floor and for partner so each woman thinks I dance only for her. Only for her pleasure and her fun. Then I think I am good tango dancer. Today I am good at some small little piece of tango. But so what? In big picture, I suck. And it is OK. I still have fun every time I practice, every time I dance. My partner danced with me for over one hour this morning in my apartment. We laughed a lot. We just walked. We played. We stopped and did things again and again. We fixed volcada where she is standing on left foot. Now it is very smooth, very supported, very comfortable for partner. Can do very small or very big. And it works always. At least always today. At least always today with her. One small thing. And we had a lot of fun. Tango is for me a 20 year project. And that is good. Yes? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
[Tango-L] Who leads what who follows what
I am lead. Have been instructed to always lead very footfall of follow, every weight change of follow, every boleo, gancho usw.. Follow adds style, follow adds embellishment. I shape dance, she adds nuance. I lead beats, phrasing, musical structure of dance. Follow works within structure to create intricacy. Questions - How common is this attitude in tango? Is this what most leads want? What most follows want? Is it de rigueur? ___ Tango-L mailing list Tango-L@mit.edu http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/tango-l
