Re: Updating TB! - Knoppix on HDD, Wine and pretas, ghouls and other monsters

[Jernej Simončič]

On Wednesday, December 13, 2006, 0:55:22, Mica Mijatovic wrote:

> Yes, they do that too, and in various ways. Basically, the entire
> "administration" can be (and indeed is, by more advanced, "demanding",
> "weird" users) divided into much more specialized sectors, and perhaps
> best example is the quite "classical" Linux/Unix strategy. There you can
> see that it by default has several (6-7) main partitions...
> /bin # programs coming with OS itself and shared by all users
> /etc # OS settings and related tools
> /home# place for (non-root) users
> /root# for the "boss" and his/her privileged secrets and tricks
> /tmp
> /usr # for programs installed and shared by users

This is actually wrong - of these only /home, /tmp and /usr can be on a
separate partition. /bin, /etc, /sbin must always be on the root partition,
or the system won't boot (/root can be on a separate partition, but you'll
have problems if you ever need to boot to single-user mode; also, the
typical /root directory is so small it doesn't make sense to waste space by
using a separate partition for it).

>This of course is not the case with "modern" Linux installations
>that imitate the Windows, installing all on just one single
>partition, in order to make it for the users accustomed to
>Windows easier to manage.

Modern Linux distributions let you do as you please. For a typical home
user, there's no point in using more than two partitions (/ and swap), and
it makes it much easier to manage the system.

-- 
< Jernej Simončič ><><><><>< http://deepthought.ena.si/ >

In any household, junk accumulates to fill the space available for its storage.
   -- Boston's Irreversible Law of Clutter



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB! - Knoppix on HDD, Wine and pretas, ghouls and other monsters

[Mica Mijatovic]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Tue, 12 Dec 2006,
   @  @  at 15:09:59 +, when MFPA wrote:

>> This schema with three main partitions (OS | Programs |
>> Data/Documents) is the best/safest way. Many professionals find it as
>> best solution too. Often is done further division of the Data as well
>> (e.g. private, business etc.).

> I have seen advocated partitions for TEMP and Archive in addition to
> those three, although I suppose Archive is just another example of a
> further division of Data.

Yes, they do that too, and in various ways. Basically, the entire
"administration" can be (and indeed is, by more advanced, "demanding",
"weird" users) divided into much more specialized sectors, and perhaps
best example is the quite "classical" Linux/Unix strategy. There you can
see that it by default has several (6-7) main partitions...

/bin # programs coming with OS itself and shared by all users
/etc # OS settings and related tools
/home# place for (non-root) users
/root# for the "boss" and his/her privileged secrets and tricks
/tmp
/usr # for programs installed and shared by users

...and so on.

   This of course is not the case with "modern" Linux installations
   that imitate the Windows, installing all on just one single
   partition, in order to make it for the users accustomed to
   Windows easier to manage.

Also, there are users who in Windows, in return, apply exactly the rules
and habits found in the "classic" Linux, making thus separate dedicated
partitions for, as you have mentioned, TEMP, Archive, Documents and so
on, and changing the system variables to point to these partitions
accordingly, instead to the default addresses.

> Out of interest (and at the risk of moving too far off-topic), what
> are the arguments either way between using partitions or physical
> drives?

This part is not clear to me. I will suppose that by "drives" you here
mean actually "hard disk", in contrast to the part of it, partition
(since "drive" and "partition" are most frequently used as synonyms)?

If yes, then there is no any significant difference, for the goal is
same: to keep various types of data separated, and thus to provide more
security/safety for them. (If OS kicks the bucket, the Documents will
remain unaffected and so forth.)

In particular situations, it's even better to keep your Documents on
separate hard disk, since this way they are even more isolated from the
rest, and if it is even a portable, USB and so on hard disk, then even
better - anyone who would by a chance access your machine, wouldn't find
any data on it except the OS and usual programs, so couldn't screw
something up, be that intentionally or not.

And it is all actually very much on topic too, since it can be applied
to mail administration as well: separate partition, or even hard disk,
for the mail only, or even two or more partitions, for various types of
mail - private, business and so on.

Then, it is much less risky if you encrypt just individual partition
then the entire hard disk.

So, this division into partitions, and even the use of dedicated hard
disks, is very useful and practical thing and can be applied in many
various situations.

We of course are forced to learn this and similar things usually not
until having undergone some loss of (valuable) data, so that actually a
certain pain is our "stimulator" much rather than a fancy wish to be a
"geeks". 

- --
Mica
 ~~~ For personal mail please use my address as it is *exactly* given
 in my "From" field, otherwise it will not reach me. ~~~
GPG keys/docs/software at: http://blueness.port5.com/pgpkeys/
   http://tronogi.tripod.com/pgp/pgpkeys/
[Earth LOG: 670 day(s) since v3.0 unleashing]
OSs: Windows 98 SE Micro Lite Professional IVa Enterprise Millennium
 Windows XP(ee) Micro Lite Professional 1.6, Gentoo & Vector ~ Wine
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Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB!

[Alexander S. Kunz]

Hello MFPA & everyone else,

on 12-Dez-2006 at 15:51 you (MFPA) wrote:

>> You need to do that whatever check for some of the downloads. The
>> check is done either with an ActiveX control in IE, or with a
>> stand-alone program when you're using other browsers. Always worked
>> for me.

> Does that mean somebody who had Windows with IE removed could get
> their updates from M$ instead of from a third party like
> http://windizupdate.com/ ?

No. The Windows Genuine Advantage check has nothing to do with Windows
Updates. You (still) get the critical security updates without the WGA
check.

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de)

In my solitude I have seen very clear things which were not true.
(Antonio Machado)



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB! - Knoppix on HDD, Wine and pretas, ghouls and other monsters

[MFPA]

Hi

On Friday 8 December 2006 at 2:49:10 PM, in
, Mica Mijatovic wrote:

> This schema with three main partitions (OS | Programs | Data/Documents)
> is the best/safest way. Many professionals find it as best solution too.
> Often is done further division of the Data as well (e.g. private,
> business etc.).

I have seen advocated partitions for TEMP and Archive in addition
to those three, although I suppose Archive is just another example
of a further division of Data.

Out of interest (and at the risk of moving too far off-topic),
what are the arguments either way between using partitions or
physical drives?

-- 
Best regards,
 
MFPA

Keep them dry and don't feed them after midnight

Using The Bat! v3.80.06 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB!

[MFPA]

Hi

On Wednesday 6 December 2006 at 6:54:16 PM, in
, Alexander S. Kunz
wrote:

> You need to do that whatever check for some of the
> downloads. The check is done either with an ActiveX control in IE, or
> with a stand-alone program when you're using other browsers. Always
> worked for me.

Does that mean somebody who had Windows with IE removed could get
their updates from M$ instead of from a third party like
http://windizupdate.com/ ?

-- 
Best regards,
 
MFPA

No matter where you go, there you are.

Using The Bat! v3.80.06 on Windows XP 5.1 Build 2600 Service Pack 1



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB! - Knoppix on HDD, Wine and pretas, ghouls and other monsters

[Mica Mijatovic]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Fri, 8 Dec 2006,
   @  @  at 17:56:29 -0600, when Douglas Hinds wrote:

>> This schema with three main partitions (OS | Programs |
>> Data/Documents) is the best/safest way. Many professionals find it as
>> best solution too. Often is done further division of the Data as well
>> (e.g. private, business etc.).

> Organizing an efficient directory system isn't easy. It's like
> designing a Thesaurus and lets you know where to find what you're
> looking for.

It can be tricky, yes, like organizing life. If you know what you do and
what you want, you have better chances however. Then the size matters
also. I keep all "My Documents/MOJA AKTA", all sorts of edited files, at
one partition (encrypted "container"), but not my mail since it's too
big, so for the mail only I have to have dedicated partition (actually
another encrypted container, with TB installed on it) as well. And so
on.

And sometimes in the course of events it shows as not just ideal way so
I have to remodel it anew.

...

>> On TBUDL I think I already have sent instructions on how to install
>> TB in Linux using Wine.

> I don't have access to the TBUDL archives on this computer. I'd have
> to look for it on the dutaint website.

I yet have to detect this message (too busy day today here[1]) and then
will adapt it for Knoppix.

...

> And the lists were so civilized.

The more you are with people the more you know them. And "they all look
normal until you know them", as the famous tag/cookie says.

> There was no gang banging then.

Definitely not. Again, gangs are accustomed to deal with a victim type,
and is big surprise then when they discover that they deal actually with
a hunter type. The price of inattentiveness. But I think it will be
solved in a productive and "socially acceptable" way.

...

> I had 50 mg of encrypted email I couldn't access. A good friend from
> TBUDL (Conrad, who may still be lurking), helped me remedy that.
> (While Calypso's just sat there and smirked).

This is the real and genuine value of the very purpose of the lists as
such. Internet indeed is amazing means for all sorts of good things too.
A real miracles may be made this way, and they really are made, every
now and then. Just depends on what direction one decides to take.

...

> From what I've read since I posted that, upgrading to Vista isn't a
> good idea unless the computer comes with it.

I have not much informations of Vista, yet.

...

>> Unfortunately I'll have to scrutinize this OS too, wishing this
>> pleasure or not, as I had with XP(ee), since I have to "be in touch"
>> with MS "products", even if and when I don't use them myself a lot
>> (cooperators, clients and similar).

> You're a guru, then.

I go actually into an OS just as much as I need in my practical work (to
protect files and similar). Unfortunately, it sometimes goes a way
deeper than I would ever wish. It always takes more time than I would
wish to spend for, and I don't like it. But I have to do my "homework".


DH>>> The main advantage to using windows is the tremendous amount of
DH>>> third party software, shareware and freeware available.

>> Indeed. It is still so. Linux is good for some more specialized, and
>> "safer", more stable, work, but plenty of that is still in the area
>> of Windows, including indeed fantastic games, for instance, but some
>> other quite useful software too.

> It's like a poorly designed city - but that's where the people are.

Yes, and one has to manage with it, somehow.





[1] I had to leave my mother in hospital today due to it seems slighter
cerebral hemorrhage this forenoon. She couldn't pronounce/articulate
words normally, nor to write, although understanding everything told,
and, yes, she doesn't like to take medicaments regularly. And suddenly I
encountered today so many people and friends with their parents being in
even worse conditions...


- --
Mica
 ~~~ For personal mail please use my address as it is *exactly* given
 in my "From" field, otherwise it will not reach me. ~~~
GPG keys/docs/software at: http://blueness.port5.com/pgpkeys/
   http://tronogi.tripod.com/pgp/pgpkeys/
[Earth LOG: 670 day(s) since v3.0 unleashing]
OSs: Windows 98 SE Micro Lite Professional IVa Enterprise Millennium
 Windows XP(ee) Micro Lite Professional 1.6, Gentoo & Vector ~ Wine
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Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB! - Knoppix on HDD, Wine and pretas, ghouls and other monsters

[Douglas Hinds]

Hello Mica,

>> However - Knoppix 5.5.1 is not there.

> Sorry for making you busy for nothing

It wasn't for nothing and didn't take long.

> and confused,

Confused? Never!

> it was my typo, and even twice. I espied it but was too late. So,
> the 5.0.1 is most recent version, 5.5.1 doesn't exist.

Not yet, anyway.

> I'll respond to the rest of your message later.

Real good.

> Instructions on how to install it on HDD, I (re)send in response to
> Benedict's message.

I've already colored it important.

-- 

Douglas



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB! - Knoppix on HDD, Wine and pretas, ghouls and other monsters

[Mica Mijatovic]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Fri, 8 Dec 2006,
   @  @  at 23:31:30 +, when Benedict Allen wrote:

> Howdy Mica,

> Friday, December 8, 2006, 2:49:10 PM, Mica wrotened:

>>> Knoppix runs from a CD. I have an older version (3.6) of it.

MM>> Knoppix also can be installed quite easily to hard disk as well (the
MM>> easiest Linux installation actually, but is not very known, taking about
MM>> 20 minutes and being 98,7% automatic). Very easy instructions I have
MM>> sent recently to a TBOT (to a...member claiming he is not Dick
MM>> Whittington and who couldn't manage with it). If you want I can resend
MM>> these instructions.

> 2) You should have your Windows imaged (Ghost v8 is quite fine)
> somewhere. (:

> 3) You should indeed download XOSL (it's freeware, and I think even open
> source) and install it, even without other OS (Linux) installed, to see
> how it works (it can work even with just one OS, and be useful for some
> things). Install it on C: drive.

> Strangely   there   was  no  1).  But  as  I  recall  these  were  the
> instructions.


   *


In _this_ message, everything preceding the 2) is 1).

You managed not only to mix up messages but the lists too. Why is so, we
may just wonder...

This is what I wrote, once upon a time, when I thought it's a well spent
time (and I should be beaten for it, because I deserve it), on TBOT (but
since it's useful for those wanting to try TB in Linux I'll resend this
text here on TBUDL). Here it goes...


///--->>>

Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: advice

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Sat, 14 Oct 2006,
   @  @  at 01:32:29 +0100, when Ben Allen wrote:

> Howdy Flying Rodent fans,

>   I'm  just  writing here to get advice really. I have finally decided
>   to  take  the  plunge  and  experiment with linux. So I was about to
>   start  by  creating  a dual boot partition. Then I realised I had no
>   idea what I was doing... So I came here looking for someone to point
>   me  in the right direction. And dont recommend a program that i have
>   to  pay  for... coz i cant afford to pay for anything at the moment.
>   Darn contract changes

Download XOSL (Extended Operative System Loader), so any time you change
something with your OSs, in terms of installing a new one, or
reinstalling them (from an image or otherwise) you have just to go to
DOS and run the XOSL to restore, or install anew, your boot sector(s),
in practically seconds.

I have several Linuxes and Windows, and am switching between them quite
often, also rebuilding them and then re-installing them from images, so
the tinkering with the boot processes, the order of OSs etc. is almost a
daily routine, and is done very easy with XOSL.

When you install Linux, don't install boot loader (Lilo or Grub) on MBR,
but on the partition you install the Linux on, for if it goes to MBR it
will overtake booting of all OSs you have, which is not very pretty
(since they then depend on the particular OS/Linux, and besides you will
have yet to tweak each additionally). Save this, anytime you (re)install
a Windows anew, it will overtake MBR, screwing up your Linux boot
loader.

When you install Linux boot loader on the given Linux partition, you
have just to run XOSL then and to line up all the systems you have --
with their original individual boot methods/sectors. It is same when you
(re)install a Windows.

  ***

If you are new to Linux...before you start with installation, run
Partition Magic from Windows and make two Linux partitions: one of say 3
GB (you don't need more, even for biggest Linux) for the Linux package
itself and one of say 250 MB for swap, so the installation will find
them automatically and thus you will not be thrown into quite unfamiliar
Linux' partition program(s) where you can screw up something quite
easily, including your Windows installation/files (or even the whole
disk).

An ultra-easy way of installing Linux is to take _Knoppix_ 5.0.1, the
"live CD" and to install it on HDD. It takes about 20 minutes for very
average and perhaps even somewhat outdated machine (as to RAM, CPU)
after which you have _completely tweaked/tuned_, and yet excellently, as
to precision, security and stability, Linux.

If you decide this, then just boot using the live CD, open Konsole (you
will see the icon in "quick start" sector of the task bar) and type in
this...

sudo ./knoppix-installer

...hit [enter] button, and installation will start.

When you are prompted for the type of installation, choose
"debian/typical/recommended", not "beginner", for you'll be given more
choices. (Once you became familiar with this one, you may safely kid
with other two types/styles -- or simply make 3 Linux partitions at once
and install them all, so you can scrutinize differences, it's very
educative "distro" as well.)

When

Re: Updating TB! - Knoppix on HDD, Wine and pretas, ghouls and other monsters

[Mica Mijatovic]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Fri, 8 Dec 2006,
   @  @  at 17:56:29 -0600, when Douglas Hinds wrote:

> However - Knoppix 5.5.1 is not there.

Sorry for making you busy for nothing and confused, it was my typo, and
even twice. I espied it but was too late. So, the 5.0.1 is most recent
version, 5.5.1 doesn't exist. I'll respond to the rest of your message
later.

Instructions on how to install it on HDD, I (re)send in response to
Benedict's message.

- --
Mica
 ~~~ For personal mail please use my address as it is *exactly* given
 in my "From" field, otherwise it will not reach me. ~~~
GPG keys/docs/software at: http://blueness.port5.com/pgpkeys/
   http://tronogi.tripod.com/pgp/pgpkeys/
[Earth LOG: 670 day(s) since v3.0 unleashing]
OSs: Windows 98 SE Micro Lite Professional IVa Enterprise Millennium
 Windows XP(ee) Micro Lite Professional 1.6, Gentoo & Vector ~ Wine
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Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB!

[Urban]

Wednesday, December 6, 2006, Mary Bull wrote:

> But MSI won't allow me to drop back. I'd have to do a full uninstall
> plus reinstall to do that. And it's too much hassle.

MSI has an option to repair "if file is missing or a different version
is installed".
So it /might/ work.

Try going to Start -> Run, and type "msiexec /?" and it will give you a
nice li'l help screen

-- 
Urban

I don't know about you, but I enjoy watching paint dry. I imagine that
the wet paint is a big freshwater lake that is the only source of water
for some tiny cities by the lake. As the lake gets drier, the population
gets more desperate, and sometimes there are water riots. Once there was
a big fire and everyone died





Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB! - Knoppix on HDD, Wine and pretas, ghouls and other monsters

[Benedict Allen]

Howdy Mica,

Friday, December 8, 2006, 2:49:10 PM, Mica wrotened:

>> Knoppix runs from a CD. I have an older version (3.6) of it.

MM> Knoppix also can be installed quite easily to hard disk as well (the
MM> easiest Linux installation actually, but is not very known, taking about
MM> 20 minutes and being 98,7% automatic). Very easy instructions I have
MM> sent recently to a TBOT (to a...member claiming he is not Dick
MM> Whittington and who couldn't manage with it). If you want I can resend
MM> these instructions.

2) You should have your Windows imaged (Ghost v8 is quite fine)
somewhere. (:

3) You should indeed download XOSL (it's freeware, and I think even open
source) and install it, even without other OS (Linux) installed, to see
how it works (it can work even with just one OS, and be useful for some
things). Install it on C: drive.

Strangely   there   was  no  1).  But  as  I  recall  these  were  the
instructions.




-- 
Have Fun,

Ben Allen

[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
crashing The Bat! v3.86.8 ALPHA (beta)
falling out of mid air with Windows XP 5.1 Build  2600
Service Pack 2 
Billy's gonna be a `Boil-In-The-Bag' dinner soon! -- Crow





Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
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Re: Updating TB! - Knoppix on HDD, Wine and pretas, ghouls and other monsters

[Mica Mijatovic]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Thu, 7 Dec 2006,
   @  @  at 18:40:46 -0600, when Douglas Hinds wrote:

DH>>> B Gates could be the devil.

>> Well, the impulse to control/"rule" just everything and yet due to
>> greediness is a demonic property, yes. Some call them "hungry spirits",

> Insatiable and born and raised to cheat and lie.

>> beings of artificial appetite that is impossible to satisfy, so
>> they are depicted as terribly skinny creatures with huge
>> balloon-alike stomachs.

> Sounds like a ghoul.

"Hungry ghost" would be somewhat better term, yes, instead of "hungry
spirit", although both are used. It is from Sanskrit "preta", Japanese
"gaki". (One of quite fine imagery is attached in copied message to
TBOT: preta-HungrySpirit-Ghost.jpg, 17.793) The entire picture/scroll
can be found here too:
.

This Tanka Art Galery (of Tibetan origin)
 includes
plenty of imageries of various psychological functions/states as well.

...

> I think that will work most of the time but it depends on the upgrade.
> The logical thing to do would be to check with the TB! Tech support
> Staff.

Yes, it works most of the time, but if there are some very special
changes in routines, one has to do a complete {up|down}grade (with
deinstall and new install).


> That's why I have my OS's and Applications in different partitions.
> (Data too).

This schema with three main partitions (OS | Programs | Data/Documents)
is the best/safest way. Many professionals find it as best solution too.
Often is done further division of the Data as well (e.g. private,
business etc.).


>> You could try it yourself and see does this speed match your
>> working habits, temperament (my best experiences so far are with
>> Knoppix 5.0.1 and the version of Wine coming with it). Except the
>> speed and some aesthetic quirks, slight twitches and
>> peculiarities, everything works, and as usual.

> Knoppix runs from a CD. I have an older version (3.6) of it.

Knoppix also can be installed quite easily to hard disk as well (the
easiest Linux installation actually, but is not very known, taking about
20 minutes and being 98,7% automatic). Very easy instructions I have
sent recently to a TBOT (to a...member claiming he is not Dick
Whittington and who couldn't manage with it). If you want I can resend
these instructions.

Knoppix 5.5.1 (on CD and on HDD) is even better than 3.x versions
(having better version of Wine as well), but versions 3 also can be
installed on hard disk (the same procedure, you just call the
installation script that does everything needed). The 5.5.1 has three
types of installation: typical Debian one, then for beginners, and one
exactly as it is on CD (with a fine sexy female voice at the opening and
the closing of the system).

On TBUDL I think I already have sent instructions on how to install TB
in Linux using Wine.

> TB! users are not main stream people and IMO, RitLab's targeting main
> stream windows users at the expense of more resourceful individuals
> was a mistake.

Well...appetites for "popularity" increase and the target group changes,
yes. Hence the needs of aristocracy of e-mailing world are not priority
anymore, as it was once upon a time, since the Fine Product has to be
spread among wide public masses as well (the very reason why the
Ministry of Silly Features and Ministry of Useless Wishes were
established), and hence the droop in quality. I resisted for a while,
and then found myself quite pleased with just watching it from the
gallery separe (and commenting on occasion, with or without petards and
tomatoes).

> The TB! lists are an important resource but RitLab's tech support is
> pretty good too. I've always gotten responses and a developer is going
> to be much more competent than a lot of those insolent fools working
> at larger corporations.

I've heard that they indeed are good and quite fair, although never had
need for their help, assistance. TB (expert) lists do indeed excellent
work, and lots of members here are quite helpful and effective. Most of
them are besides quite friendly, of undamaged nerves, literate and
genuinely civilized too, that contributes to the experience, so that I
almost feel as in old good times of TB being a mailer for real
aristocracy.

> I used Calypso before discovering TB! and had a nightmarish experience
> with it and especially, with their worse-than-nothing Dallas based
> tech support staff.

I've heard about lots of such experiences too, with various
manufacturers.

> Vista is said to be more stable than previous versions of windows and
> RitLabs has announced that a Vista certified version of Tb! will be
> released soon.

There you see. Windows become more and more "specialized" and "picky" in
order to defend their shaky stability. At the end the

Re: Updating TB!

[Douglas Hinds]

MM>>> And when I tried a v. 3.85 MSI install, Windows told me it
MM>>> could not do that.

DH>> B Gates could be the devil.

> Well, the impulse to control/"rule" just everything and yet due to
> greediness is a demonic property, yes. Some call them "hungry spirits",

Insatiable and born and raised to cheat and lie.

> beings of artificial appetite that is impossible to satisfy, so
> they are depicted as terribly skinny creatures with huge
> balloon-alike stomachs.

Sounds like a ghoul.

> Manually extracting the files from the MSI archive will most
> likely not fix it. You'll still have a corrupt entry in the MS
> installer database that needs fixing.

>> Mr. Mica said that all I had to do is substitute the old thebat.exe
>> file with the new one.

> I always was doing this way, including the versions 3 (those in
> MSI packages as well), until I gave them up.

I think that will work most of the time but it depends on the
upgrade. The logical thing to do would be to check with the TB! Tech
support Staff.

>> I recall that this used to work for most previous TB! uogrades, and
>> there was also an ftp access with zip files on the ritlab site.

> Yes, those were the exe files only, and mainly compressed with RAR. La
> MSI emballage made the things just more complicated, limited, and yet
> tinkering quite unnecessarily with OS.

Exactly.

> There is nothing worse than a software integrated, in any way,
> into OS, which is the source then of instability of both the
> software and OS.

That's why I have my OS's and Applications in different partitions.
(Data too).

>> Mr. Mica said TB! runs pretty slow on Linux. There were a lot of
>> people on tbot using Xandros but they must have unsubscribed.

> Only the charming buxom lady Anne, quite experienced Linux user,
> used TB and Xandros, to my knowledge, but she unsubscribed, yes,
> longish time ago. She was quite happy with this combination.

There were others, but I don't have access the files. One of the
posters at that time was named Angliss I recall, but I don't
remember if he was one of the Xandros group or not. IAC, you're
providing an orientation I need on this subject.

> I myself was using TB under Xandros (and many other Linuxes,
> Vector, Knoppix, Gentoo, Libranet, Gnoppix, Slackware, Debian...),
> but basically the performance, in relation to Windows, is same. I
> used Xandros to try if Cross Office could do it better than Wine
> (although the core of Cross Office is based exactly on the Wine),
> but it couldn't. Even the "pure" Wine is a wee bit better (more
> clean, lighter on resources and faster).

> You could try it yourself and see does this speed match your
> working habits, temperament (my best experiences so far are with
> Knoppix 5.0.1 and the version of Wine coming with it). Except the
> speed and some aesthetic quirks, slight twitches and
> peculiarities, everything works, and as usual.

Knoppix runs from a CD. I have an older version (3.6) of it.

> But if you work a bit longer with it, those twitches have tendency
> to assimilate you, like smallpox.

> TB under Linux quivers like a pudding. Slightly though and quite
> delicately, but quivers. I myself don't like it. With software. I
> like firm and defined forms on that score, so when you click on a
> button, or "inter-face", nothing shakes nor ripples.

> Anyway, developers of Wine obviously advance. Earlier, TB will
> simply explode right in your face, if you touch wrong button/area
> or you make wrong move, which means actually that we probably will
> not need any "portage" to Linux, but will manage quite fine via
> Wine.

TB! users are not main stream people and IMO, RitLab's targeting
main stream windows users at the expense of more resourceful
individuals was a mistake. The TB! lists are an important resource
but RitLab's tech support is pretty good too. I've always gotten
responses and a developer is going to be much more competent than a
lot of those insolent fools working at larger corporations. I used
Calypso before discovering TB! and had a nightmarish experience with
it and especially, with their worse-than-nothing Dallas based tech
support staff. And that was before the company failed.

Vista is said to be more stable than previous versions of windows
and RitLabs has announced that a Vista certified version of Tb! will
be released soon. So I think I'll stick with what's working for me
at present, and not take risks that could require reinstalling
things that are working reasonably well right now, since I've got a
lot of commitments with work to do and am short on help here, so I
really don't have time to do things over, particularly when it's
unnecessary.

IOW, if I change over to Vista, I'll upgrade TB! then.

The main advantage to using windows is the tremendous amount of
third party software, shareware and freeware available.

-- 

Douglas



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silv

Re: Updating TB!

[Mica Mijatovic]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Wed, 6 Dec 2006,
   @  @  at 15:28:33 -0600, when Douglas Hinds wrote:

>> And when I tried a v. 3.85 MSI install, Windows told me it could not
>> do that.

> B Gates could be the devil.

Well, the impulse to control/"rule" just everything and yet due to
greediness is a demonic property, yes. Some call them "hungry spirits",
beings of artificial appetite that is impossible to satisfy, so they are
depicted as terribly skinny creatures with huge balloon-alike stomachs.

 Manually extracting the files from the MSI archive will most likely
 not fix it. You'll still have a corrupt entry in the MS installer
 database that needs fixing.

> Mr. Mica said that all I had to do is substitute the old thebat.exe
> file with the new one.

I always was doing this way, including the versions 3 (those in MSI
packages as well), until I gave them up.

> I recall that this used to work for most previous TB! uogrades, and
> there was also an ftp access with zip files on the ritlab site.

Yes, those were the exe files only, and mainly compressed with RAR. La
MSI emballage made the things just more complicated, limited, and yet
tinkering quite unnecessarily with OS. There is nothing worse than a
software integrated, in any way, into OS, which is the source then of
instability of both the software and OS.

> Mr. Mica said TB! runs pretty slow on Linux. There were a lot of
> people on tbot using Xandros but they must have unsubscribed.

Only the charming buxom lady Anne, quite experienced Linux user, used TB
and Xandros, to my knowledge, but she unsubscribed, yes, longish time
ago. She was quite happy with this combination.

I myself was using TB under Xandros (and many other Linuxes, Vector,
Knoppix, Gentoo, Libranet, Gnoppix, Slackware, Debian...), but basically
the performance, in relation to Windows, is same. I used Xandros to try
if Cross Office could do it better than Wine (although the core of Cross
Office is based exactly on the Wine), but it couldn't. Even the "pure"
Wine is a wee bit better (more clean, lighter on resources and faster).

You could try it yourself and see does this speed match your working
habits, temperament (my best experiences so far are with Knoppix 5.0.1
and the version of Wine coming with it). Except the speed and some
aesthetic quirks, slight twitches and peculiarities, everything works,
and as usual.

But if you work a bit longer with it, those twitches have tendency to
assimilate you, like smallpox.

TB under Linux quivers like a pudding. Slightly though and quite
delicately, but quivers. I myself don't like it. With software. I like
firm and defined forms on that score, so when you click on a button, or
"inter-face", nothing shakes nor ripples.

Anyway, developers of Wine obviously advance. Earlier, TB will simply
explode right in your face, if you touch wrong button/area or you make
wrong move, which means actually that we probably will not need any
"portage" to Linux, but will manage quite fine via Wine.

- --
Mica
 ~~~ For personal mail please use my address as it is *exactly* given
 in my "From" field, otherwise it will not reach me. ~~~
GPG keys/docs/software at: http://blueness.port5.com/pgpkeys/
   http://tronogi.tripod.com/pgp/pgpkeys/
[Earth LOG: 670 day(s) since v3.0 unleashing]
OSs: Windows 98 SE Micro Lite Professional IVa Enterprise Millennium
 Windows XP(ee) Micro Lite Professional 1.6, Gentoo & Vector ~ Wine
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pVKX8gq88G24DJ5k
=yqvt
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Updating TB!

[Mary Bull]

Hello Douglas!

On Wednesday, December 06, 2006, 3:28 PM, you wrote:

> ... substitute the old thebat.exe file with the new one. I recall
> that this used to work for most previous TB! uogrades, and there was
> also an ftp access with zip files on the ritlab site. ...

I could send you PM the beta site URL. However, you have to be a
registered beta tester to use that; requires ID and PWD.

To sign up for beta testing, see the Silverstones page, the link to
which is at the bottom of every TBUDL post.

But renaming the .exe temporarily and dragging the new rar .exe in,
does work, within a given MSI install. I don't know whether there
would be incompatibilities between, say, an earlier 3.xx MSI install,
and the .exe from v. 3.85.03.

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
The Bat! 3.86.02 on Windows XP Media Center Edition Service Pack 2








Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Updating TB!

[Alexander S. Kunz]

Hello Mary Bull & everyone else,

on 06-Dez-2006 at 20:10 you (Mary Bull) wrote:

>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/290301

> What's your opinion of this warning at that website page:

Well, its there for a reason. :-)

MSI keeps a database of installed programs (well, those programs that
were installed with an MSI package). When you manually remove an entry
from the database, the program is not uninstalled, but the status of its
installation is unknown to the system afterwards, ie. the entry from the
control panel / add or remove programs will be gone.

One possible usage of the utility is to remove an entry from the
database that makes an update installation (or whatever) hang otherwise
and then re-install the program over the still existing on-disk
installation so that you end up with an updated installation and a clean
MSI configuration database.

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de)

NP: "Anamatha (Intro Version)" by DJ Zen
(from the 2003 compilation "Peace Therapy")



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Updating TB!

[Mary Bull]

Hello Alexander!

On Wednesday, December 06, 2006, 10:28 AM, you wrote:

>  the MSI cleanup utility from
> Microsoft. It can check the database of MSI installations and remove
> entries without actually uninstalling the program.

> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/290301

What's your opinion of this warning at that website page:

begin c&p
=
View products that this article applies to.Article ID   :   290301
Last Review :   November 13, 2006
Revision:   5.1

This article was previously published under Q290301
Warning The Windows Installer CleanUp Utility is provided "as is" to
help resolve installation problems for programs that use Microsoft
Windows Installer. If you use this utility, you may have to reinstall
other programs. Caution is advised.
===
end c&p

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
The Bat! 3.86.02 on Windows XP Media Center Edition Service Pack 2








Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Updating TB!

[Alexander S. Kunz]

Hello Douglas Hinds & everyone else,

on 06-Dez-2006 at 18:06 you (Douglas Hinds) wrote:

>> Something may be corrupt with the MSI installation procedure. Early
>> MSI releases of TB had some problems if I remember correct.

> You mean TB!3?

Yes. I think v2 was not distributed in MSI packages.

>> You could try to make a full backup from within TB, uninstall the
>> program completely, and then reinstall from the new MSI (and then
>> restore the backup) to cure the problem once and for all.

> Unless the problem is with my windows installation. The principle
> question is, do I or don't I need to upgrade from v 3.51.10?

Since I'm always an early adopter of the latest version, I can't really
tell you which features are improved in 3.85, the Ritlabs web page has a
version history.

> Everything MS makes corrupts too easily. I can't run MSIE (or
> Netcaptor, for that matter) either; but who cares? I use Firefox
> and Opera w/ not problems.

Well, I recently updated to FF2.0 - and realised then that I should have
removed the old 1.5 installation before. I did that afterwards, and now
half of the FF2.0 installation is a mess (I think I have to install 2.0
over the existing installation again to fix it). :-)

> I'll give it a try. But I was at the M$ website a while ago and in
> order to download a service pack I have to use their own pet browser.

You need to do that Windows Genuine whatever check for some of the
downloads. The check is done either with an ActiveX control in IE, or
with a stand-alone program when you're using other browsers. Always
worked for me.

But IIRC the msicuu is available without the check.

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de)

That which is incapable of proof itself is no proof of anything else.
-- Percy Bysshe Shelley



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Updating TB! -- TB with Linux

[Mica Mijatovic]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Wed, 6 Dec 2006,
   @  @  at 11:06:04 -0600, when Douglas Hinds wrote:

> Is anyone using TB! with Linux?

It is significantly slower in Linux, still, and not quite proportional
in some aspects. Here and there it lacks icon or dozen.

For off-line use is not bad (better than any other Linux mailer),
reviewing mail, composing...waiting for dialog boxes to appear.

So basically who can stand this, may use it on-line too.

- --
Mica
 ~~~ For personal mail please use my address as it is *exactly* given
 in my "From" field, otherwise it will not reach me. ~~~
GPG keys/docs/software at: http://blueness.port5.com/pgpkeys/
   http://tronogi.tripod.com/pgp/pgpkeys/
[Earth LOG: 670 day(s) since v3.0 unleashing]
OSs: Windows 98 SE Micro Lite Professional IVa Enterprise Millennium
 Windows XP(ee) Micro Lite Professional 1.6, Gentoo & Vector ~ Wine
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E8FKjMfWuGqhZJZf
=GRbs
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Updating TB!

[Mary Bull]

Hello Douglas!

On Wednesday, December 06, 2006, 11:06 AM, you wrote:

>>> I am using TB! Pro v. 3.51.10 on WinXP with no service packs and
>>> when I double click on the file thebat_pro_3-85-03.msi the
>>> computer enters a loop that requires me to reboot.

>> Something may be corrupt with the MSI installation procedure. Early
>> MSI releases of TB had some problems if I remember correct.

I remember them. Actually had encounters with them, while beta
testing.

> You mean TB!3?

Yes. I only started beta testing post-v. 3.xx.

>> You could try to make a full backup from within TB, uninstall the
>> program completely, and then reinstall from the new MSI (and then
>> restore the backup) to cure the problem once and for all.

> Unless the problem is with my windows installation. The principle
> question is, do I or don't I need to upgrade from v 3.51.10?

You do not need to upgrade.

The additional features past v. 3.51.10 are chiefly the new (and
rather daunting) customizer, for customizing toolbars and keyboard
shortcuts.

Plus a much easier sorting office/filters interface.

That's it, in the main.

I wish that I were running v. 3.51.10 myself right now, as a matter of
fact.

But MSI won't allow me to drop back. I'd have to do a full uninstall
plus reinstall to do that. And it's too much hassle.

What I'm missing, since I began running the beta series v. 3.86.03 and
following, is the icon panel in the View window. Attachments are
available only in the status bar at the bottom of the screen, now.

IIRC, happened to me with v. 3.86.08. Dropping back to v. 3.86.02 did
not fix it, however.

And when I tried a v. 3.85 MSI install, Windows told me it could not
do that.

My current work-around is to store the attachments separately. That
way I can move images out to a non-TB! folder and view them at a
decent size rather than as the unsatisfactory small images TB! now
embeds in the message body when I click on the status bar tab.

Grr.

>> Manually extracting the files from the MSI archive will most likely
>> not fix it. You'll still have a corrupt entry in the MS installer
>> database that needs fixing.

> Everything MS makes corrupts too easily. I can't run MSIE (or
> Netcaptor, for that matter) either; but who cares? I use Firefox
> and Opera w/ not problems.

I like Opera and Firefox. Opera is my default browser.

>> Another thing worth trying first would be the MSI cleanup utility
>> from Microsoft. It can check the database of MSI installations and
>> remove entries without actually uninstalling the program.

>> http://support.microsoft.com/kb/290301

> I'll give it a try. But I was at the M$ website a while ago and
> in order to download a service pack I have to use their own pet
> browser. Is anyone using TB! with Linux?

Let me know if it's any good, please. I might be interested in it.

In re Linux: Tony Boom ran TB! on Linux for awhile before he got his
Mac. You might inquire about that on TBOT, since AFAIK Tony's not
subscribed to the TB! lists any more.

-- 
Best regards,
Mary
The Bat! 3.86.02 on Windows XP 5.1 2600 Service Pack 2








Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Updating TB!

[Mica Mijatovic]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Wed, 6 Dec 2006,
   @  @  at 09:00:52 -0600, when Douglas Hinds wrote:

>> If you use Total Commander, you can open .msi files using Commander's
>> plugin (msi.wcx).

> I also downloaded Total Commander but when I tried to open the file
> with it most of the open applications locked into a cycle and I had to
> do a hard reboot.

Have you downloaded the plugin msi.wcx as well and did you install it?
It doesn't work "out of box".

> I am downloading the file yet again using Opera 9 but I am having no
> problems with v3.51.10 and have to do a lot of things today.

> And Winrar still says the file is corrupt.

Give up the Winrar, it can't deal with .msi files.

>> Then you'll see thebat.exe inside, so you can just drag and drop
>> it where you wish.

> You are saying that I do not have to install TB! over the present
> version, right?

Right.

> I just replace the 3.51.10 thebat.exe with the new one right?

Right.

> If that's the case, why don't you just send the thebat.exe file for
> the newest stable version to <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.

Because I would have to download it first (I use version 2.12.00), using
modem connection (that works on 3-15 Kb, depending on mood and room air
humidity).

Which actually is not problem to me to do today, if you are willing to
wait.

So if you are, just push the "do it" button.

> As for the tbot posts I owe you, due to their length and other
> commitments I am going to have wait a bit before answering.

That's quite okay, so you take your time. I got it all to do "in one
wave" only because I am not sure whether I will have time later (due to
my other commitments) if I don't response now (it's lots of that and my
messages are more as a "legacy"). Besides those are quite coherent
messages (of yours, that is quite a rare occurrence on TBOT, by the way)
and thus deserve a fine response.

- --
Mica
 ~~~ For personal mail please use my address as it is *exactly* given
 in my "From" field, otherwise it will not reach me. ~~~
GPG keys/docs/software at: http://blueness.port5.com/pgpkeys/
   http://tronogi.tripod.com/pgp/pgpkeys/
[Earth LOG: 670 day(s) since v3.0 unleashing]
OSs: Windows 98 SE Micro Lite Professional IVa Enterprise Millennium
 Windows XP(ee) Micro Lite Professional 1.6, Gentoo & Vector ~ Wine
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-END PGP SIGNATURE-



Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Updating TB!

[Alexander S. Kunz]

Hello Douglas Hinds & everyone else,

on 06-Dez-2006 at 13:30 you (Douglas Hinds) wrote:

> I am using TB! Pro v. 3.51.10 on WinXP with no service packs and
> when I double click on the file thebat_pro_3-85-03.msi the computer
> enters a loop that requires me to reboot.

Something may be corrupt with the MSI installation procedure. Early MSI
releases of TB had some problems if I remember correct.

You could try to make a full backup from within TB, uninstall the
program completely, and then reinstall from the new MSI (and then
restore the backup) to cure the problem once and for all.

Manually extracting the files from the MSI archive will most likely not
fix it. You'll still have a corrupt entry in the MS installer database
that needs fixing.

Another thing worth trying first would be the MSI cleanup utility from
Microsoft. It can check the database of MSI installations and remove
entries without actually uninstalling the program.

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/290301

HTH

-- 
Best regards,
 Alexander (http://www.neurowerx.de)




Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html

Re: Updating TB!

[Mica Mijatovic]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA224

   ***^\ ."_)~~
 ~( __ _"o   Was another beautiful day, Wed, 6 Dec 2006,
   @  @  at 06:30:25 -0600, when Douglas Hinds wrote:

> I am using TB! Pro v. 3.51.10 on WinXP with no service packs and when
> I double click on the file thebat_pro_3-85-03.msi the computer enters
> a loop that requires me to reboot. Is another type of file for
> updating TB! available and if so, where? Previously (I've used TB°
> since v. 1.35), some updates were able to be realized by replacing the
> principle .exe file only.

If you use Total Commander, you can open .msi files using Commander's
plugin (msi.wcx). Then you'll see thebat.exe inside, so you can just
drag and drop it where you wish.

- --
Mica
 ~~~ For personal mail please use my address as it is *exactly* given
 in my "From" field, otherwise it will not reach me. ~~~
GPG keys/docs/software at: http://blueness.port5.com/pgpkeys/
   http://tronogi.tripod.com/pgp/pgpkeys/
[Earth LOG: 670 day(s) since v3.0 unleashing]
OSs: Windows 98 SE Micro Lite Professional IVa Enterprise Millennium
 Windows XP(ee) Micro Lite Professional 1.6, Gentoo & Vector ~ Wine
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rJerjzLdDPtSd8rX
=tHNa
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Current version is 3.85.03 | 'Using TBUDL' information:
http://www.silverstones.com/thebat/TBUDLInfo.html