[tw] Re: A Rant

[James A Bernard]

As a short term work-a-round, try Waterfox, its like firefox but its 
keeping the plugins. Tiddlyfox work well.

>
>

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Riz

The work you did on Reddit is immense.

I was a big pusher for change. But I did NOTHING practical. Shame on me 
(well, apart from Twitter).

I STILL think we are left with very UNKEMPT systems. And as it gets yet 
more complex and interestingly rich it gets even worse for a beginner, I 
think.

Take, for instance, SAVING TW. Now we have many excellent methods. But if 
you are not reading the list daily its actually, for many a newbie, more 
info than you can cope with. WHICH method? FOR what? HOW can I get clearer 
what to do?

I dunno what the solution is. 

Your Reddit is v. good in that you tend to lift out the MAIN themes and its 
a *definite plus* to have it simple enough to follow main developments. But 
still STEERAGE is somewhat lacking I think. 

There is maybe a lacking ACCESS ROUTE that is clear enough for a new user 
who knows nothing and is NOT interested in D.I.Y. to get up and running. 
That issue is partly orthogonal to which particular forum you read.

Possibly PART of the issue devolves to clearer delineation of TYPES of TW? 
By which I mean delineation of DIY versions from whole, finished apps 
(where dabbling is very secondary & its easier to say what they are).

Something like that.

Just thoughts
Josiah, x

Riz wrote:
>
> >  Is the subreddit more of a plugin directory?
>
> I can understand why people would think that. It was initially started as 
> a possible alternative to google group. There was a demand for a forum 
> where people can categorize the posts, upvote on favorite responses,   will 
> have a wiki and multiple moderators responsible for the overseeing the 
> forum. Most of the other choices with similar feature set were non-free. 
>
> However,  last time such a discussion happened, it was implied that 
> community would probably prefer either a stack-overflow based solution or 
> TW5 based experiment called Twederation. Owing to general disinterest and 
> my inability to convince people the necessity of an alternative to show 
> case the available options regarding TW5 which are missed out, the 
> discussion largely was and is still limited to google groups. 
>
> It is not all bad, however. We do still keep the forum updated. We have a 
> wiki there that list around 200 old plugins published before subreddit was 
> born. (those published after can be found by clicking on any of the plugin 
> tags). In additions flairs like tutorials,  adapations and tweaks enable 
> people to explore the possibilities of TW5. I do wish more and more will 
> post there in addition to here. 
>
>
> > Actual discussion is probably hard to do there. 
>
> It can't be really said that it is not a platform well suited for 
> discussion. Keep in mind that there are subreddits ranging from Jokes(
> http://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes)  to Worldnews(
> http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews) ,  from psychology (
> http://www.reddit.com/r/psychology)  to AskReddit (
> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit) ,  all of which have over 100,000 
> subscribers and witness intense discussions. 
>
>
> > The problem is, you can't re-edit an item. 
>
> Are we talking about comments? Hmmm, it can be edited. 
>
> Anyway,  my point is,  if anybody is willing to write step by step 
> tutorials for any of the complaints OP raised in the first post,  we can 
> dedicate a page a page for such tutorials in reddit. So those who have 
> experience and is willing to contribute,  please do. 
>
>

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[Riz]

>  Is the subreddit more of a plugin directory?

I can understand why people would think that. It was initially started as a 
possible alternative to google group. There was a demand for a forum where 
people can categorize the posts, upvote on favorite responses,   will have a 
wiki and multiple moderators responsible for the overseeing the forum. Most of 
the other choices with similar feature set were non-free. 

However,  last time such a discussion happened, it was implied that community 
would probably prefer either a stack-overflow based solution or TW5 based 
experiment called Twederation. Owing to general disinterest and my inability to 
convince people the necessity of an alternative to show case the available 
options regarding TW5 which are missed out, the discussion largely was and is 
still limited to google groups. 

It is not all bad, however. We do still keep the forum updated. We have a wiki 
there that list around 200 old plugins published before subreddit was born. 
(those published after can be found by clicking on any of the plugin tags). In 
additions flairs like tutorials,  adapations and tweaks enable people to 
explore the possibilities of TW5. I do wish more and more will post there in 
addition to here. 


> Actual discussion is probably hard to do there. 

It can't be really said that it is not a platform well suited for discussion. 
Keep in mind that there are subreddits ranging from 
Jokes(http://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes)  to 
Worldnews(http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews) ,  from psychology 
(http://www.reddit.com/r/psychology)  to AskReddit 
(http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit) ,  all of which have over 100,000 
subscribers and witness intense discussions. 


> The problem is, you can't re-edit an item. 

Are we talking about comments? Hmmm, it can be edited. 



Anyway,  my point is,  if anybody is willing to write step by step tutorials 
for any of the complaints OP raised in the first post,  we can dedicate a page 
a page for such tutorials in reddit. So those who have experience and is 
willing to contribute,  please do. 

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[JD]

Wow, I've forgotten about the subreddit! When I first started using TW5 
that's where I usually looked for information. The trouble I had with it 
is, it's mostly just plugin-posts, not much discussion (actual discussion 
is probably hard to do there). Is the subreddit more of a plugin directory?

On Saturday, November 18, 2017 at 3:14:57 AM UTC+9, Ste Wilson wrote:
>
> We do have a Reddit... (Cheers again Riz)

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[tw] Re: A Rant

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

The main thing that I don't like about reddit is that it seems to have been 
built as a forum for debate. The problem is, you can't re-edit an item. 
This seems a bit limiting.

-- Mark

On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 10:45:47 AM UTC-8, Riz wrote:
>
> Thank you Ste. 
>
> Yes, we do have reddit. Much of the features demanded in the couple of 
> threads have been met in there. For eg: 
>
> 1) It is free.
> 2) We can tag and categorize the posts. We can also tag/flair users. If 
> you click on a tag,  it will show all the posts with same tag.  Especially 
> useful if you want to check out some things like "what all plugins are 
> available to TW5". 
> 3) We can have multiple community moderaters with different levels of 
> access.  
> 4) A sidebar with relevant intoductionary information and important links. 
> 5) A wiki,  the editing access of which can be made open to all or 
> multiple. authorised personnel. 
>
>
> It is all there. We do keep it updated with major announcements from the 
> group. So if you are interested in TW5 enough to stay up to date,  but do 
> not want to be bothered by each and every post in the group,  you  can 
> either add http://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5 to your rss feed. If you 
> are a redditor,  wowsie,  do subscribe it. 
>
> Things are bit quite in there is the issue.  We could use a hand,  mostly 
> if you care to announce your works in there along with the group. It will 
> be easier for people to find your work in reddit rather than in here. 
>
> draco dormiens nunquam titillandus
> Riz
>
>

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[Riz]

Thank you Ste. 

Yes, we do have reddit. Much of the features demanded in the couple of threads 
have been met in there. For eg: 

1) It is free.
2) We can tag and categorize the posts. We can also tag/flair users. If you 
click on a tag,  it will show all the posts with same tag.  Especially useful 
if you want to check out some things like "what all plugins are available to 
TW5". 
3) We can have multiple community moderaters with different levels of access.  
4) A sidebar with relevant intoductionary information and important links. 
5) A wiki,  the editing access of which can be made open to all or multiple. 
authorised personnel. 


It is all there. We do keep it updated with major announcements from the group. 
So if you are interested in TW5 enough to stay up to date,  but do not want to 
be bothered by each and every post in the group,  you  can either add 
http://www.reddit.com/r/TiddlyWiki5 to your rss feed. If you are a redditor,  
wowsie,  do subscribe it. 

Things are bit quite in there is the issue.  We could use a hand,  mostly if 
you care to announce your works in there along with the group. It will be 
easier for people to find your work in reddit rather than in here. 

draco dormiens nunquam titillandus
Riz

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Re: [tw] Re: A Rant

[Abraham Samma]

There's TW5's github repository wiki.

On Fri, Nov 17, 2017 at 9:11 PM, JD  wrote:

> This has been mentioned before, but couldn't the community agree to use a
> different, multi-user wiki for the help file, or manual, or
> watchamacallit... At least, while TW5 remains single-user and incapable of
> that task?
>
> I'm thinking of wiki-how and fandom community wikis, for example, whose
> contents get filled so easily. Very entry-level, with links to related
> Google Groups threads and permalinks to popular personally-maintained
> tiddlywikis, while a simpler write-up hasn't been written in yet by a
> contributor...
>
> Apologies if this is an ignorant question.
>
>
> On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 12:58:57 AM UTC+9, Furicle wrote:
>>
>> I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use TW.  I think a
>> new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>>
>> Firefox is forcing the end of TiddlyFox, fine. There's a great Getting
>> Started doc with all the options to replace it.
>> But darned if I can get any of them I've tried to work
>>
>>- TW in the Sky Dropbox
>>   -  either doesn't work, or I can't figure out how to work it.  It
>>   authenticates, I've got a folder in Dropbox/Apps, but I can't get it 
>> to use
>>   my tw.  Really needs documentation.
>>
>>
>>- TW Desktop
>>   - no installer, just a zip folder - where do you put it, exactly?
>>   Does it matter?  How am I supposed to know I launch something labelled
>>   nw.exe?
>>   - can't see the screens half the time.  Opens randomly hidden or
>>   off screen, most of the time
>>   - Muck around and get the windows to actually be visible, and get
>>   it to open and display one of my tiddlers, and it still won't save?
>>- Node.js
>>   - No Windows instructions
>>
>> I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
>>
>>
>> *I'm not dumping on anyone.  I'm grateful for the work done to date.  I'm
>> not owed anything.  I'm not demanding a darned thing.*
>>
>> I'm a reasonably technically advanced current TW classic user, and I can
>> not, after spending quite some time at, move forward.
>>
>> I'm trying to say this community really needs to take a look at usability
>> if it wants to be anything more than a niche product
>>
>>
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[tw] Re: A Rant

[Ste Wilson]

We do have a Reddit... (Cheers again Riz)

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[JD]

This has been mentioned before, but couldn't the community agree to use a 
different, multi-user wiki for the help file, or manual, or 
watchamacallit... At least, while TW5 remains single-user and incapable of 
that task? 

I'm thinking of wiki-how and fandom community wikis, for example, whose 
contents get filled so easily. Very entry-level, with links to related 
Google Groups threads and permalinks to popular personally-maintained 
tiddlywikis, while a simpler write-up hasn't been written in yet by a 
contributor...

Apologies if this is an ignorant question.


On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 12:58:57 AM UTC+9, Furicle wrote:
>
> I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use TW.  I think a 
> new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>
> Firefox is forcing the end of TiddlyFox, fine. There's a great Getting 
> Started doc with all the options to replace it.
> But darned if I can get any of them I've tried to work
>
>- TW in the Sky Dropbox
>   -  either doesn't work, or I can't figure out how to work it.  It 
>   authenticates, I've got a folder in Dropbox/Apps, but I can't get it to 
> use 
>   my tw.  Really needs documentation.
>   
>
>- TW Desktop
>   - no installer, just a zip folder - where do you put it, exactly?  
>   Does it matter?  How am I supposed to know I launch something labelled 
>   nw.exe?
>   - can't see the screens half the time.  Opens randomly hidden or 
>   off screen, most of the time
>   - Muck around and get the windows to actually be visible, and get 
>   it to open and display one of my tiddlers, and it still won't save?
>- Node.js
>   - No Windows instructions
>
> I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
>
>
> *I'm not dumping on anyone.  I'm grateful for the work done to date.  I'm 
> not owed anything.  I'm not demanding a darned thing.*
>
> I'm a reasonably technically advanced current TW classic user, and I can 
> not, after spending quite some time at, move forward.
>
> I'm trying to say this community really needs to take a look at usability 
> if it wants to be anything more than a niche product
>
>
>

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[tw] Re: A Rant

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Actually you can't save with Ctl-S. If you do the resulting file will be 
corrupted. You have to use the Save checkmark button inside of TW. 

Good luck --
Mark

On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 7:03:26 AM UTC-8, Guille Rmo wrote:
>
> Hi Furicle. I understand you are not a develope and thus you have a hard 
> time using docker, node.js, etc. 
> However, TW5 is actually easy to use without servers and development 
> tools. 
> You just save the web page with ctrl + s and then you open it again. 
> As simple as that. 
> This is one of the most important goals of this app's, a serverless one 
> page, one file application that won't need external tools, other than a 
> modern browser.
>
>
> El miércoles, 15 de noviembre de 2017, 9:58:57 (UTC-6), Furicle escribió:
>>
>> I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use TW.  I think a 
>> new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>>
>> Firefox is forcing the end of TiddlyFox, fine. There's a great Getting 
>> Started doc with all the options to replace it.
>> But darned if I can get any of them I've tried to work
>>
>>- TW in the Sky Dropbox
>>   -  either doesn't work, or I can't figure out how to work it.  It 
>>   authenticates, I've got a folder in Dropbox/Apps, but I can't get it 
>> to use 
>>   my tw.  Really needs documentation.
>>   
>>
>>- TW Desktop
>>   - no installer, just a zip folder - where do you put it, exactly?  
>>   Does it matter?  How am I supposed to know I launch something labelled 
>>   nw.exe?
>>   - can't see the screens half the time.  Opens randomly hidden or 
>>   off screen, most of the time
>>   - Muck around and get the windows to actually be visible, and get 
>>   it to open and display one of my tiddlers, and it still won't save?
>>- Node.js
>>   - No Windows instructions
>>
>> I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
>>
>>
>> *I'm not dumping on anyone.  I'm grateful for the work done to date.  I'm 
>> not owed anything.  I'm not demanding a darned thing.*
>>
>> I'm a reasonably technically advanced current TW classic user, and I can 
>> not, after spending quite some time at, move forward.
>>
>> I'm trying to say this community really needs to take a look at usability 
>> if it wants to be anything more than a niche product
>>
>>
>>

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[Abraham Samma]

Seconded

On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 7:12:27 PM UTC+3, Diego Mesa wrote:
>
> Do you guys think it would be useful to move this discussion to 
> github under a "Improve New User Onboarding Experience" issue? That way we 
> can have a larger discussion and perhaps generate some action items?
>
> On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 9:03:26 AM UTC-6, Guille Rmo wrote:
>>
>> Hi Furicle. I understand you are not a develope and thus you have a hard 
>> time using docker, node.js, etc. 
>> However, TW5 is actually easy to use without servers and development 
>> tools. 
>> You just save the web page with ctrl + s and then you open it again. 
>> As simple as that. 
>> This is one of the most important goals of this app's, a serverless one 
>> page, one file application that won't need external tools, other than a 
>> modern browser.
>>
>>
>> El miércoles, 15 de noviembre de 2017, 9:58:57 (UTC-6), Furicle escribió:
>>>
>>> I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use TW.  I think a 
>>> new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>>>
>>> Firefox is forcing the end of TiddlyFox, fine. There's a great Getting 
>>> Started doc with all the options to replace it.
>>> But darned if I can get any of them I've tried to work
>>>
>>>- TW in the Sky Dropbox
>>>   -  either doesn't work, or I can't figure out how to work it.  It 
>>>   authenticates, I've got a folder in Dropbox/Apps, but I can't get it 
>>> to use 
>>>   my tw.  Really needs documentation.
>>>   
>>>
>>>- TW Desktop
>>>   - no installer, just a zip folder - where do you put it, 
>>>   exactly?  Does it matter?  How am I supposed to know I launch 
>>> something 
>>>   labelled nw.exe?
>>>   - can't see the screens half the time.  Opens randomly hidden or 
>>>   off screen, most of the time
>>>   - Muck around and get the windows to actually be visible, and get 
>>>   it to open and display one of my tiddlers, and it still won't save?
>>>- Node.js
>>>   - No Windows instructions
>>>
>>> I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
>>>
>>>
>>> *I'm not dumping on anyone.  I'm grateful for the work done to date.  
>>> I'm not owed anything.  I'm not demanding a darned thing.*
>>>
>>> I'm a reasonably technically advanced current TW classic user, and I can 
>>> not, after spending quite some time at, move forward.
>>>
>>> I'm trying to say this community really needs to take a look at 
>>> usability if it wants to be anything more than a niche product
>>>
>>>
>>>

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[Diego Mesa]

Do you guys think it would be useful to move this discussion to 
github under a "Improve New User Onboarding Experience" issue? That way we 
can have a larger discussion and perhaps generate some action items?

On Friday, November 17, 2017 at 9:03:26 AM UTC-6, Guille Rmo wrote:
>
> Hi Furicle. I understand you are not a develope and thus you have a hard 
> time using docker, node.js, etc. 
> However, TW5 is actually easy to use without servers and development 
> tools. 
> You just save the web page with ctrl + s and then you open it again. 
> As simple as that. 
> This is one of the most important goals of this app's, a serverless one 
> page, one file application that won't need external tools, other than a 
> modern browser.
>
>
> El miércoles, 15 de noviembre de 2017, 9:58:57 (UTC-6), Furicle escribió:
>>
>> I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use TW.  I think a 
>> new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>>
>> Firefox is forcing the end of TiddlyFox, fine. There's a great Getting 
>> Started doc with all the options to replace it.
>> But darned if I can get any of them I've tried to work
>>
>>- TW in the Sky Dropbox
>>   -  either doesn't work, or I can't figure out how to work it.  It 
>>   authenticates, I've got a folder in Dropbox/Apps, but I can't get it 
>> to use 
>>   my tw.  Really needs documentation.
>>   
>>
>>- TW Desktop
>>   - no installer, just a zip folder - where do you put it, exactly?  
>>   Does it matter?  How am I supposed to know I launch something labelled 
>>   nw.exe?
>>   - can't see the screens half the time.  Opens randomly hidden or 
>>   off screen, most of the time
>>   - Muck around and get the windows to actually be visible, and get 
>>   it to open and display one of my tiddlers, and it still won't save?
>>- Node.js
>>   - No Windows instructions
>>
>> I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
>>
>>
>> *I'm not dumping on anyone.  I'm grateful for the work done to date.  I'm 
>> not owed anything.  I'm not demanding a darned thing.*
>>
>> I'm a reasonably technically advanced current TW classic user, and I can 
>> not, after spending quite some time at, move forward.
>>
>> I'm trying to say this community really needs to take a look at usability 
>> if it wants to be anything more than a niche product
>>
>>
>>

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[Guille Rmo]

Hi Furicle. I understand you are not a develope and thus you have a hard 
time using docker, node.js, etc. 
However, TW5 is actually easy to use without servers and development tools. 
You just save the web page with ctrl + s and then you open it again. 
As simple as that. 
This is one of the most important goals of this app's, a serverless one 
page, one file application that won't need external tools, other than a 
modern browser.


El miércoles, 15 de noviembre de 2017, 9:58:57 (UTC-6), Furicle escribió:
>
> I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use TW.  I think a 
> new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>
> Firefox is forcing the end of TiddlyFox, fine. There's a great Getting 
> Started doc with all the options to replace it.
> But darned if I can get any of them I've tried to work
>
>- TW in the Sky Dropbox
>   -  either doesn't work, or I can't figure out how to work it.  It 
>   authenticates, I've got a folder in Dropbox/Apps, but I can't get it to 
> use 
>   my tw.  Really needs documentation.
>   
>
>- TW Desktop
>   - no installer, just a zip folder - where do you put it, exactly?  
>   Does it matter?  How am I supposed to know I launch something labelled 
>   nw.exe?
>   - can't see the screens half the time.  Opens randomly hidden or 
>   off screen, most of the time
>   - Muck around and get the windows to actually be visible, and get 
>   it to open and display one of my tiddlers, and it still won't save?
>- Node.js
>   - No Windows instructions
>
> I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
>
>
> *I'm not dumping on anyone.  I'm grateful for the work done to date.  I'm 
> not owed anything.  I'm not demanding a darned thing.*
>
> I'm a reasonably technically advanced current TW classic user, and I can 
> not, after spending quite some time at, move forward.
>
> I'm trying to say this community really needs to take a look at usability 
> if it wants to be anything more than a niche product
>
>
>

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[TonyM]

Furicle,

*I feel your pain. Although I am happy using multiple methods to save and 
manage tiddlywikis and except for a few small bug fixes I could not want 
for more features or options,*
*the fact is the information is not clearly **available** for a **newcomer 
to choose which path to take, have clear instructions to do so, *
*and most **importantly does not demand a careful step by step, focused 
process to **achieve** a basic outcome. *
*All solutions are somewhat **sensitive** in some way often **requiring** a 
fix or more information and **choosing* *amongst** the options difficult.*

*In defence of the **community, a concerted effort has being made to 
develop solutions and solutions are demonstrating **engineering* *excellence, 
knowledge and skills of our community.*

*I have no doubt the methods and instructions will mature, and will be 
packaged in some way.*

*In the mean time we will help anyone here, and work to reducing the 
barriers.*

*Regards*
*Tonyt*

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao PMario

You do get it--but you miss something also--I think. 

IF you refer to a thread people read the THREAD. 

But they DO NOT need to read the thread. 

What they NEED is direct links to INSTRUCTIONS of what to do to get 
something working FIRST.

Discussion should NEVER come first IMO when the aim is ACTIVATING SIMPLE 
UTILITY. 

Discussion is for troubleshooting, NOT setup.

Josiah

PMario wrote:

Yea, but my first 3 clickable links in the first post are links to 
> documentation and a video instruction. 
> I really don't know, how to provide better info, than let a user watch, 
> how it should work. ..
>

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[PMario]

On Thursday, November 16, 2017 at 12:55:31 PM UTC+1, @TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao PMario
>
> Furicle wrote:
>>
>> I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use TW.  I think a 
>>> new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>>>
>>
> PMario replied: 
>
>> See: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/h0k7z62N79Y
>> and: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/9984ShVVbbA
>>
>> for possible replacements. 
>>
>
> The problem with these is they are NOT documentation. They are discussion 
> of emergent projects. Newbies who simply want to get on and DO IT will 
> likely not bother. 
>

Yea, but my first 3 clickable links in the first post are links to 
documentation and a video instruction. 
I really don't know, how to provide better info, than let a user watch, how 
it should work. .. 

If this ins't enough info, I really don't know, what more can be done. 

I know, that the video needs to be refined, once the final version is out. 

have fun!
mario
PS: I also got some hints, how to improve the visual feedback of the AddOn, 
reviewing my own video. Which will land in one of the next versions. 

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[PMario]

On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 4:58:57 PM UTC+1, Furicle wrote:
>
> I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use TW.  I think a 
> new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>
> Firefox is forcing the end of TiddlyFox, fine. There's a great Getting 
> Started doc with all the options to replace it.
>

See: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/h0k7z62N79Y
and: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/9984ShVVbbA

for possible replacements. 

have fun!
mario

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[@TiddlyTweeter]

Ciao Furicle

Furicle wrote: I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use 
> TW.  I think a new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>

I think your sentiment is spot-on.

Its a bit of a insolvable issue as there is NO dedicated "Make It Simple 
For Newbies" Department. The problem is that WITHIN the TW Community 
(mainly here) there is great concern to enable new methods of saving. And 
its SOLVED a read important issue & is (right now) being refined even 
further.

Its coming out in a really GOOD place with many more options than before. 
Like this ...



HOWEVER for a newbie it can be a NIGHTMARE being confronted with so many 
options the implications of which, at ground zero, they can't possible know 
at the start. In addition they are not all so well documented--they rely a 
lot on IMPLICIT knowledge that is quite technical.

Some way of NAVIGATING one's way to a MINIMAL solution would help. 

BUT, on the whole the standard TiddlyWiki has an IMPLYING on SAVING that 
you are prepared to dabble in quite a lot of D.I.Y., I think

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[Furicle]

At the risk of asking a stupid question - would it be difficult to just 
wrap it all up in an Electron app bundle like Slack et al?

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[tw] Re: A Rant

[Furicle]

Please note - my message was mostly about how tough it is to make this 
thing work if you aren't a javascript dev.
Has this been discussed on this list before?

On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 11:34:33 AM UTC-5, Mark S. wrote:
>
> Re installing node.js, did the instructions at "Installing TiddlyWiki on 
> Node.js" at tiddlywiki.com not work for you? 
>

There are no instructions for Windows.
Re-reading carefully I guess it's implied by the line "or directly from 
nodejs.org"
The rest of the page is a set of command line instructions, with specific 
notes for Mac or Linux in certain places.
Not something you'd expect to work on Windows.

I'll consider this set up - my wiki is somewhat confidential, I'm not 
thrilled with making it accessible from the network.


> Do you have a requirement for cloud or net-based tiddlywiki? I notice the 
> options you tried were net based. 
>

What I want is file based - it's somewhat confidential - making it 
available on the network (and adding a server to my laptop) is not 
something I'd prefer.  On the other hand, a cloud service (other than one 
of the 'big three' that I trust to be reasonably secure and reliable) isn't 
appropriate

The easiest net-based solution is TiddlyServer (IMO). 
>
> I have read https://www.didaxy.com/introduction-to-tiddlyserver which is 
supposed to be the 'easy concise' installation instructions.
Install node, install a server package, edit a json file, click on somthing 
or other that might start the server, then use a special bookmark to save?
Why not  use m4 macros too?

 

> The easiest simple save solution for standalone files is either BJ's 
> savetiddlers approach or Mario's new saver described here: 
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/h0k7z62N79Y
>

Savetiddlers has a nice banner saying "don't use me"

Thank you for that link to Mario's plug in  - I hadn't looked at that 
before.  It seems like the solution I want, except I have to keep my wiki 
in the downloads folder.  Not ideal, but possibly workable.

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[tw] Re: A Rant

['Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki]

Re installing node.js, did the instructions at "Installing TiddlyWiki on 
Node.js" at tiddlywiki.com not work for you? They were the one's I followed 
for node.js on Windows. I may have jumped through loops and have forgotten.

Do you have a requirement for cloud or net-based tiddlywiki? I notice the 
options you tried were net based. 

The easiest net-based solution is TiddlyServer (IMO). 

The easiest simple save solution for standalone files is either BJ's 
savetiddlers approach or Mario's new saver described here: 
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/tiddlywiki/h0k7z62N79Y

HTH
Mark


On Wednesday, November 15, 2017 at 7:58:57 AM UTC-8, Furicle wrote:
>
> I am having a ridiculously complicated time trying to use TW.  I think a 
> new user will never jump through all these hoops.
>
> Firefox is forcing the end of TiddlyFox, fine. There's a great Getting 
> Started doc with all the options to replace it.
> But darned if I can get any of them I've tried to work
>
>- TW in the Sky Dropbox
>   -  either doesn't work, or I can't figure out how to work it.  It 
>   authenticates, I've got a folder in Dropbox/Apps, but I can't get it to 
> use 
>   my tw.  Really needs documentation.
>   
>
>- TW Desktop
>   - no installer, just a zip folder - where do you put it, exactly?  
>   Does it matter?  How am I supposed to know I launch something labelled 
>   nw.exe?
>   - can't see the screens half the time.  Opens randomly hidden or 
>   off screen, most of the time
>   - Muck around and get the windows to actually be visible, and get 
>   it to open and display one of my tiddlers, and it still won't save?
>- Node.js
>   - No Windows instructions
>
> I could go on, but I think I've made my point.
>
>
> *I'm not dumping on anyone.  I'm grateful for the work done to date.  I'm 
> not owed anything.  I'm not demanding a darned thing.*
>
> I'm a reasonably technically advanced current TW classic user, and I can 
> not, after spending quite some time at, move forward.
>
> I'm trying to say this community really needs to take a look at usability 
> if it wants to be anything more than a niche product
>
>
>

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