[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
Here is the precise source of the phrase: Matthew 6.2-4 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, *do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing*, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 10:04:47 AM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote: > > The common meaning of stuff happens when people guess at what a phrase > means. Eventually the common meaning becomes the effective meaning. > > The one that always bother me is "left hand doesn't know what the right > hand does" > > The original context of this saying was about giving. i.e. Give without > paying attention to how much. > > But today it's almost always used in the context of dysfunctional > government or organizations. > > Mark > > On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 3:09:30 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote: >> >> Ciao David & others >> >> The discussion was interesting. I think I wasn't quite as explicit in my >> bits as I could have been. >> >> The origin of "learning curve" dates back some time in psychology (1920's >> and before) when this kind of curve ... >> >> >> ...meant you learnt quite fast at the start but eventually plateau. >> >> Sometime in the 1970's the idea of "steep learning curve" emerged that is >> metaphorically the opposite. That the "steepness is effort, not gain". That >> is NOT what the original research showed. >> >> I'm interested sociologically and linguistically in the contradiction >> between the older (still relevant psychology) and the wider meaning the >> "steep" version adopted. >> >> Well, I did say it was an "aside" :-) >> >> Best wishes >> Josiah >> >> Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/ wrote: >>> >>> Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a >>> payoff worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be >>> worth the effort. >>> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/599b1b3e-c286-4020-b92d-c3a7e758a29f%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
I always wondered where that one came from. On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 10:04:47 AM UTC-4, Mark S. wrote: > > The common meaning of stuff happens when people guess at what a phrase > means. Eventually the common meaning becomes the effective meaning. > > The one that always bother me is "left hand doesn't know what the right > hand does" > > The original context of this saying was about giving. i.e. Give without > paying attention to how much. > > But today it's almost always used in the context of dysfunctional > government or organizations. > > Mark > > On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 3:09:30 AM UTC-7, @TiddlyTweeter wrote: >> >> Ciao David & others >> >> The discussion was interesting. I think I wasn't quite as explicit in my >> bits as I could have been. >> >> The origin of "learning curve" dates back some time in psychology (1920's >> and before) when this kind of curve ... >> >> >> ...meant you learnt quite fast at the start but eventually plateau. >> >> Sometime in the 1970's the idea of "steep learning curve" emerged that is >> metaphorically the opposite. That the "steepness is effort, not gain". That >> is NOT what the original research showed. >> >> I'm interested sociologically and linguistically in the contradiction >> between the older (still relevant psychology) and the wider meaning the >> "steep" version adopted. >> >> Well, I did say it was an "aside" :-) >> >> Best wishes >> Josiah >> >> Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/ wrote: >>> >>> Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a >>> payoff worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be >>> worth the effort. >>> >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/79266ec9-82e9-4f2c-9a49-1c16adb7ff3f%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
Ciao TonyM I agree and disagree. I agree in the sense that "steep learning curve" has escaped, through modern usage, its connection with the 1920's psychologists "learning curves". I disagree in the sense that the modern usage of the term is any way compatible with the originating scholastic metaphors. That is WHY its interesting to me. Tensions like this say a lot about broader cultural CHANGE IMO. Enough of this aside already. I'll shut up. Josiah TonyM wrote: > > Interesting, > > I am not sure they are opposites. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/d0b7bac9-713f-4db8-bd8f-a81f9648afe7%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
Interesting, I am not sure they are opposites. perhaps It depends on why you are learning. If something has a steep learning curve wether it is quick and easy at the begining it still indicates the need to learn a lot. If I use a steep learning curve to indicate the amount of learning required regardless of its difficulty tge can be the same thing. perhaps this is how the meaning migrated to its apparent opposite. regards tony -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/bc5c59cf-5041-40c5-a1c6-c59d1c4f82cc%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
oh, I was not aware of that. On Tuesday, October 10, 2017 at 6:09:30 AM UTC-4, @TiddlyTweeter wrote: > > Ciao David & others > > The discussion was interesting. I think I wasn't quite as explicit in my > bits as I could have been. > > The origin of "learning curve" dates back some time in psychology (1920's > and before) when this kind of curve ... > > > ...meant you learnt quite fast at the start but eventually plateau. > > Sometime in the 1970's the idea of "steep learning curve" emerged that is > metaphorically the opposite. That the "steepness is effort, not gain". That > is NOT what the original research showed. > > I'm interested sociologically and linguistically in the contradiction > between the older (still relevant psychology) and the wider meaning the > "steep" version adopted. > > Well, I did say it was an "aside" :-) > > Best wishes > Josiah > > Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/ wrote: >> >> Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a >> payoff worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be >> worth the effort. >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/426619bc-cb7c-4136-9d62-de4e903f0a1f%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
Ciao David & others The discussion was interesting. I think I wasn't quite as explicit in my bits as I could have been. The origin of "learning curve" dates back some time in psychology (1920's and before) when this kind of curve ... ...meant you learnt quite fast at the start but eventually plateau. Sometime in the 1970's the idea of "steep learning curve" emerged that is metaphorically the opposite. That the "steepness is effort, not gain". That is NOT what the original research showed. I'm interested sociologically and linguistically in the contradiction between the older (still relevant psychology) and the wider meaning the "steep" version adopted. Well, I did say it was an "aside" :-) Best wishes Josiah Dave Gifford - http://www.giffmex.org/ wrote: > > Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a payoff > worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be worth the > effort. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/0313c0cf-e9e7-4e8a-8aed-21d449344997%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
Steep learning curve is fine if you know there will eventually be a payoff worth the steep effort. But most newbies aren't sure it will be worth the effort. Thus TiddlyWiki owes it to people to ease the learning curve as much as possible to get from novice to regular / intermediate user if it wants them to stick around. And it has to find ways to show them what they will be able to do when they get to that point. Perhaps better language would be 'reducing friction points', new jargon that I am seeing in Pocket articles. Tiddlywiki has too many friction points up front. Hopefully that phrase could further the discussion? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/b12ffc51-d026-4c30-a7c3-b4398bb33caf%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
I am comfortable with "Learning Curve" and See no confusion. To me its about the Journey, to Get some where, such as mastery of TiddlyWiki or a new Job. The Area under the learning curve represents the amount of information you need to learn and the slope is determined how quickly you have to learn it. If you are climbing a steep learning curve it is a lot of work, If there was less to learn over a longer period it would be a walk in the park not a climb. So the two factors are the area under the curve (amount of Information) and the time available. Sometimes the time available is impacted by the need of Emerson in the subject, meaning you can not extend the time to complete too far out or you will always be having to revise. Some projects like tiddlywiki demand a minimum learning curve "slope" that is quite steep. If you don't give up in exhaustion, or by falling/rolling back down the slope you are progressing. Yes the steeper the slope the more knowledge you are gaining in a given period of time. Climbing steep slopes archives a lot, has its pleasures like mountain climbing, is hard work and sometimes dangerous (could be wasted effort). A Few steps (*appropriate* learning materials) would make it a lot easier. Just my View of this metaphor. Tony -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/09f6f456-ae8a-4ef6-8d17-a9960b1c1940%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
B, T & M. I find it a really interesting trope. Your replies illustrate there is a visceral resonance in the phrase that gives it traction. Its used a lot. Yet as a stat "curve" it doesn't really make sense. It kinda got free of the math though--sort of transferred the upward curve into a kind of hill--even though that means on the curve "fast success" not "upward slog". J. Birthe wrote: Rewards each step of the learning curve make TW users constantly hungry. Thomas wrote: > “Learning stairs” would be a great term! Rewards and new heights after > each step. > Mark S. wrote: > > Imagine climbing a pile of books. The bigger the pile, the steeper the > hike to get on top. > > @TiddlyTweeter wrote: >> >> I never understood "steep learning curves". >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/03e78fa5-768c-41d8-a666-e3f07f035b93%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[tw] Re: An Aside: Learning Curves
“Learning stairs” would be a great term! Rewards and new heights after each step. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "TiddlyWiki" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to tiddlywiki+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/tiddlywiki. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/da62b3dc-a8c6-43bc-867c-ef9a66a67e59%40googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
