Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[PMario]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 1:28:12 PM UTC+2, Bob Jansen wrote:

Many of the examples in the TW documentation use what appears to be a 
> macrocall of some sort to perform the example. So you cannot see the actual 
> statements used, you can only see the result of the macrocall. Not very 
> helpful really is it. Why not just use simple statements that anyone can 
> follow after all we are after a real example to see how things are done.
>

As Joshua pointed out, that's the use of so called documentation macros. We 
needed to use them because, the "default" approach is a maintenance horror 
... and many users requested a "copy to clipboard" button.

eg: To document the action-setfield widget we used a similar wikitext code 
as follows:


```
<$button>
<$action-setfield $tiddler="$:/state/tab-17494383077" 
text="$:/core/ui/ControlPanel/Appearance"/>
<$action-navigate $to="$:/ControlPanel"/>
Go to Control Panel "Appearance" tab

```

renders as:

<$button>
<$action-setfield $tiddler="$:/state/tab-1749438307" 
text="$:/core/ui/ControlPanel/Appearance"/>
<$action-navigate $to="$:/ControlPanel"/>
Go to Control Panel "Appearance" tab


... and the underlying HTML is

```

Go to Control Panel Appearance tab

```

The nightmare comes now: What if I want to add a class definition to the  
button widget like so:  <$button class=test>

How many changes do I need to fix it. ...  3 ...

No it's 6 because I actually found out I should have done: <$button 
class="tc-btn-xyz">

That's the reason, why we use a macrocal for may examples. ... There should 
be only 1 "source of truth", for examples. ... because *the worst think 
that can happen is*, that the rendered code works, but the code to be used 
by the user has a typo. If I wouldn't have highlighted it, you would have 
searched for hours. ... right?

As a side effect, the "copy to clipboard" button is available for many 
examples. .. That's the one to be used. 

BUT if you open the tiddler you as a programmer will see this: 

<$macrocall $name='wikitext-example'
src='<$button class="tc-btn-xyz">
<$action-setfield $tiddler="$:/state/tab-1749438307" 
text="$:/core/ui/ControlPanel/Appearance"/>
<$action-navigate $to="$:/ControlPanel"/>
Go to Control Panel "Appearance" tab
'/>

The code that will be copied to the clipboard is highlighted in light blue. 

That's confusing. But even more confusing would have been an example the 
looks right for the user, but doesn't work if you copy / paste the code, to 
test it. 

I did add a file to play with.

hope that helps
-mario


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test-doc-macro.json
Description: application/json

Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Ed Heil]

Tones,

Agreed on all points.  I didn't meant to suggest that the differences between 
Tiddlywiki and other programming environments are arbitrary or random.  
Generally TW is the way it is so it can do the things it does.

On Wed, Sep 30, 2020, at 10:04 PM, TW Tones wrote:
> Ed,
> 
> My programming days was more in the past, but I would argue that tiddlywikis 
> approach is different for a fundamental reason of architecture. If you were 
> to build something similar in any language you would have to ensure the 
> following and it would complicate the program massively;
>  * Cause all and any change in the whole solution to flow through immediately 
> to all references to that changed item
>  * Render all visible objects when a change occurs but do so efficiently, 
> including dealing with potential loops
>  * Allow the transclusions of transclusions etc... to work and be reliable 
> and avoid loops.
>  * Now wrap the vast majority of this is an environment that is somewhat 
> accessible to almost everyone 
>  * Create not just an application but a platform which can be used to design 
> and document itself.
> In the face of these facts it is my option tiddlywiki does the best job I 
> have ever seen. Yes we want to improve documentation and teach the concepts 
> effectively to improve ease of adoption and share the concepts.
> 
> TiddlyWiki is not just a non-trivial Quine but a Quine platform.
> 
> Regards
> Tones
> 

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Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[TW Tones]

Ed,

My programming days was more in the past, but I would argue that 
tiddlywikis approach is different for a fundamental reason of architecture. 
If you were to build something similar in any language you would have to 
ensure the following and it would complicate the program massively;

   - Cause all and any change in the whole solution to flow through 
   immediately to all references to that changed item
   - Render all visible objects when a change occurs but do so efficiently, 
   including dealing with potential loops
   - Allow the transclusions of transclusions etc... to work and be 
   reliable and avoid loops.
   - Now wrap the vast majority of this is an environment that is somewhat 
   accessible to almost everyone 
   - Create not just an application but a platform which can be used to 
   design and document itself.

In the face of these facts it is my option tiddlywiki does the best job I 
have ever seen. Yes we want to improve documentation and teach the concepts 
effectively to improve ease of adoption and share the concepts.

TiddlyWiki is not just a non-trivial Quine but a Quine platform.

Regards
Tones

On Thursday, 1 October 2020 01:53:24 UTC+10, Ed Heil wrote:
>
> As a programmer myself, I would agree agree that tiddlywiki doesn't let 
> you exploit your existing programming knowledge very much at all.  It's 
> very different from most programming environments, in that it's almost 
> entirely declarative, it operates by transforming an underlying series of 
> entities which are a superset of HTML; it has several different "syntaxes" 
> that are appropriate in different contexts and interact in sometimes 
> unexpected ways, or require unexpected means to make them interact...  
> There's just not much resemblance to the kind of programming most people 
> do, even most web developers.
>
> You kind of have to throw away everything you know about programming and 
> accept that this system operates on its own terms and in its own context, 
> and your existing programming knowledge will apply only in the most general 
> ways.  (Although of course, if you have HTML/CSS knowledge, that knowledge 
> *will* apply with respect to the appearance and structure of the final 
> product of all the underlying transformation.  And if you have existing 
> Javascript knowledge and are developing a JS-based plugin, that knowledge 
> will apply -- but that's very advanced and seldom necessary.)
>
> On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 10:48:01 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> I didn't read the whole thread. Only this post and I downloaded. the 
>> "Standard Nomenclature.json" from Tony.
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 1:28:12 PM UTC+2, Bob Jansen wrote:
>>
>> The tiddlywiki wiki entry on Variables in Wikitext has the example, 
>>>
>>> <$set name=animal value=zebra> 
>>> <> 
>>> 
>>>
>>
>> That's right. Consistency is an issue and we try hard to fix it. ... 
>>
>> TW documentation should consistently use double quotes. It should look 
>> like this. I'll create a PR after finishing this post.
>>
>> <$set name=animal value="zebra"> 
>> <> 
>> 
>>
>> As long as there are no spaces and "special chars" quotes are not needed. 
>>
>>  
>>
>>> Your cheatsheet, which I know you passed to me before it has been 
>>> reviewed, has a similar example
>>>
>>> <$set name='var' value='Foo'> 
>>> <> 
>>> 
>>>
>>
>> It's the users taste. So users can use different quotes if they want. The 
>> macro call syntax is described in the docs 
>> .
>>  
>> The search string is "macro call"
>>  
>>
>>> Note one difference, the use of quotes around the variable name and 
>>> value attributes. So which is it, are quotes required or not? Do quotes 
>>> matter? I would assume quotes do matter and if so why does the official 
>>> documentation leave them out.
>>>
>>
>> See the link above. Quotes do matter *as soon as you have special 
>> characters* in parameter values. That's why the rule for TW PRs with 
>> documentation is: Quotes must be used. ... BUT I'm sure there are some 
>> oversights. 
>>
>> I'll post a link to the PR. If you find more problems tell me there and 
>> I'll try to fix it with that PR.
>>
>>  
>>
>>> I also assume the macro call should read <> and this is 
>>> just a mistype. 
>>>
>>
>> <>  ... This is a macro call without any parameters. Macro 
>> names -- see link above.
>>  
>>
>>> But this hows that even such a simple statement's documentation is 
>>> inconsistent.
>>>
>>
>> Sure if you use different sources. Different users have different 
>> preferences. ... 
>> For single word values you'll find many of *my personal* examples here 
>> in the group without quotes, because I'm lazy. 
>>
>> *The TW docs should have them. ... If not, it needs to be fixed. *
>>
>>  
>>
>>> Now, if quotes don't matter I assume it is because no values have spaces?
>>>
>>
>> 

Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[TW Tones]

Bob,

Please accept this reply in the spirit it is intended, as constructive 
> input into the issue of learning TW wikitext and not as an attack on 
> anyone, TW or this group.
>

That is the way we work here, I personally prefer the "egoless approach".

I will Publish the updated cheat sheet in its own thread in the TiddlyWiki 
Dev forums, I want peer review before the general membership takes copies. 
I have provided numeric references.


 

>
> Your cheatsheet, which I know you passed to me before it has been 
> reviewed, has a similar example
>
> <$set name='var' value='Foo'> 
> <> 
> 
>

I can not find the use of foo in my current version of the cheat sheet.
 

>
> Note one difference, the use of quotes around the variable name and value 
> attributes. So which is it, are quotes required or not? Do quotes matter? I 
> would assume quotes do matter and if so why does the official documentation 
> leave them out. I also assume the macro call should read <> 
> and this is just a mistype. But this hows that even such a simple 
> statement's documentation is inconsistent. Now, if quotes don't matter I 
> assume it is because no values have spaces? But this is an exception rule 
> and as we all know one exception breeds other exceptions and soon we have 
> so many exceptions that the only real exception is the initial idea. In all 
> other programming languages that I know of, strings are quote delimited. A 
> simple lesson learned once and applied all over the place.
>

 are quotes required or not? *(yes/no)* Do quotes matte? *(yes)*

This is a case of falling back on well establish practices in coding here 
are a set of examples

value='Foo' lets generalise to parname=value

If value is a single word not containing spaces or other delimiters 
*parname=value* (no quotes)
If value is two words spaces *parname='value word2'* *parname="value 
word2" **parname="""value word2""" *all work. note double "" does not.
Then as the documentation outlines, but is a logical necessity on almost 
every computer on earth (this is my point, not intended as belittling)

   - If you want to use a delimiter such as ' or " in a string you must use 
   the other 
   - If our value is parname="something "quote here" something else" it 
   does not know when it is starting or ending
   - parname='something "quote here" something else' this works 
   - parname="something 'quote here' something else" as does this
   - The advantage of the triple quotes is they rarely appear in content so 
   parname="""something 'quote here' and "here is another" something else""" 
   works and is the most reliable.

The above are the rules for literals, or fixed typed values.

   - Tiddlywiki uses quotes for literals so if you put it around other 
   things '<>'  "<>" """<>""" it turns it 
   into a literal
   - However when we use the following as a parameter or attribute value 
   they are already delimited by the << or {{ or {{{ so *no need to add 
   quotes and turn them into literals*.
  - parname=<> 
  - parname=<> 
  - parname={{{ [filter] }}} 
  - parname={{!!fieldname}} 
  - parname={{tiddlername}}  
  - parname={{tiddlername!!fieldname}} 
   - But in the above cases the value is retrieved from elsewhere, and that 
   value needs to be appropriate for the parameter you are providing.
   - Keep in mind double and triple braces are used in wikitext because 
   html tags  etc... are permitted in wiki text, So we need << to 
   separate them from <
  - only singles are required in filters because filters do not handle 
  html tags.
   
 Bob can you review the following again to see if they are still issues in 
my new version.



> Your cheatsheet on the  element states
> "Does *only* work as a *filter variable*, inside or outside a macro:"
> As something is either inside or outside of a macro, this should always 
> work as a filter variable then cause it can't be in any other state so the 
> statement doesn't make sense.
>
 
I think this is gone and replaced 


> Another example, concatenation of strings. Search for concatenate in TW 
> documentation and you get the  tiddler, Concatenating text and variables 
> using macro substitution, which categorically states that the only way to 
> do this is to use a macro. So I used a macro. Could not get the macro to 
> function as expected inside a $list loop. You and Eric explained that it 
> can not be used this was inside a $list loop but where does it state that 
> in the documentation?
>

The section on *The value of Substitutions * kind of addresses how we use 
macros to do concatenation,  but the section on ❻ More on filtered 
transclusions
 

>
> Many of the examples in the TW documentation use what appears to be a 
> macrocall of some sort to perform the example. So you cannot see the actual 
> statements used, you can only see the result of the macrocall. Not very 
> helpful really is it. Why not just use simple statements that anyone can 
> follow after 

Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Joshua Fontany]

There IS a lot to absorb, and it was all "grown organically". I think the 
specific macros you are finding odd are actually defined in the "tw5.com 
edition", and is part of a set of macros called "documentation macros". 
These macros use leading punctuation (.operator-example, .warning, .tip, 
etc). These can be considered "user created" macros (with the user being 
Jeremy and everyone on the GitHub repository), and the leading period is to 
separate these into a different "name-space". Granted, this is never called 
out, and you need to use the Advanced Search's System tab to find the 
tiddlers that contain these definitions:

\define .icon(_) {{$_$}}
\define .tip(_) {{$:/core/images/tip}} $_$
\define .warning(_) {{$:/core/images/warning}} $_$

Welcome to the community!

Best,
Joshua Fontany

On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 3:54:21 PM UTC-7 bob...@gmail.com wrote:

> Mario,
>
> to see what I mean about examples, open the TW wiki and search for .oper. 
> You will get 24 retrieved. All the examples use this format.
>
> I can't remember other examples I foundI have 'found' many things and 
> most of them have now been 'lost' :-)
>
> bobj
>
> On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 04:13:10 UTC+10 Cade Roux wrote:
>
>> I sympathize.
>>
>> It's very hard for me to switch gears into TiddlyWiki filter and widget 
>> syntax.  I generate my tiddlers with a combination of SQL and PowerShell 
>> within and around a source template TW.  So I am dealing with two 
>> completely different declarative models (TW - plus HTML/CSS - and SQL 
>> queries) and four different imperative models (C#, Javascript, PowerShell, 
>> SQL procedures) on a daily basis.
>>
>> I am trying to let each be the best at what it does.  So in cases where I 
>> might have previously generated an HTML table to put in a tiddler, I am 
>> instead replacing that with a macro based on a list(s) of elements put into 
>> a field(s) in the tiddler, and generating more of the raw data into the 
>> fields of the tiddlers and let them render more things based on their 
>> attached data.
>>
>> I find the filters are really hard to deal with finding which one you 
>> need.  The names are so generic and terse and they are so varied.  I mean 
>> we have tag, tags and tagged which all have to do different things.  And 
>> ones like each, get, has, is, contains - all needed obviously for their 
>> different input and semantics, but it's hard to keep them all in your head 
>> there are so many compared to other languages.
>>
>> I use a macro to do edit/transclusion extensively, to allow the medical 
>> informaticist to edit tiddlers which annotate things in various places 
>> which need handwritten narratives - so he gets quick feedback since 
>> everything is transcluded, he can see the results immediately as if he was 
>> building the manual in Word or some other documentation tool without having 
>> to cut and paste in new lists of things generated from the datamart.  He 
>> just transcludes them and when they are regenerated, they are updated.
>>
>> Because we have a combination of edited manual tiddlers and generated 
>> tiddlers, and also need source control for our work simultaneously, I tend 
>> to relegate all control over the template to the medical informaticist and 
>> put anything I want in through the build process - all tiddlers are either 
>> in the template or they are generated, there is no mixing.  Once we 
>> established that separation (generated tiddlers are marked in a field and 
>> are all deleted and recreated during the build process), it has worked very 
>> well.  Generated tiddlers can transclude manual tiddlers and vice versa, 
>> which truly is wonderful.  It's somehow hard to tell whether the system is 
>> filling out a template we have created or we are filling out a template the 
>> build process has created - that is very liberating from the point of view 
>> of generating a rapidly growing data dictionary for our data mart.  It's a 
>> continual learning process and a lot of refactoring and refinement, but I 
>> think the process is a lot smoother and less labor intensive than if we had 
>> a system that was more biased one way or the other towards whether the main 
>> point of view was the generated documentation from manual parts or the 
>> manual documentation from generated parts.
>>
>> Best of luck,
>>
>> Cade
>> On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 12:46:41 PM UTC-5 bob...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> Read with interest all the comments. I am trying to help and it is 
>>> warming to read that you seem to agree. Other lists I have been on are less 
>>> welcoming.
>>>
>>> Imtaz's comments are right but I would go further and argue for a 
>>> rewrite of all the filter docs. The one thing I have learned is the central 
>>> and crucial role of filters to the extent that I believe they need a 'Book' 
>>> on their own. Filters drive just about everything and understanding them, 
>>> their role and how to code them is 

Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Bob Jansen]

Mario,

to see what I mean about examples, open the TW wiki and search for .oper. 
You will get 24 retrieved. All the examples use this format.

I can't remember other examples I foundI have 'found' many things and 
most of them have now been 'lost' :-)

bobj

On Thursday, 1 October 2020 at 04:13:10 UTC+10 Cade Roux wrote:

> I sympathize.
>
> It's very hard for me to switch gears into TiddlyWiki filter and widget 
> syntax.  I generate my tiddlers with a combination of SQL and PowerShell 
> within and around a source template TW.  So I am dealing with two 
> completely different declarative models (TW - plus HTML/CSS - and SQL 
> queries) and four different imperative models (C#, Javascript, PowerShell, 
> SQL procedures) on a daily basis.
>
> I am trying to let each be the best at what it does.  So in cases where I 
> might have previously generated an HTML table to put in a tiddler, I am 
> instead replacing that with a macro based on a list(s) of elements put into 
> a field(s) in the tiddler, and generating more of the raw data into the 
> fields of the tiddlers and let them render more things based on their 
> attached data.
>
> I find the filters are really hard to deal with finding which one you 
> need.  The names are so generic and terse and they are so varied.  I mean 
> we have tag, tags and tagged which all have to do different things.  And 
> ones like each, get, has, is, contains - all needed obviously for their 
> different input and semantics, but it's hard to keep them all in your head 
> there are so many compared to other languages.
>
> I use a macro to do edit/transclusion extensively, to allow the medical 
> informaticist to edit tiddlers which annotate things in various places 
> which need handwritten narratives - so he gets quick feedback since 
> everything is transcluded, he can see the results immediately as if he was 
> building the manual in Word or some other documentation tool without having 
> to cut and paste in new lists of things generated from the datamart.  He 
> just transcludes them and when they are regenerated, they are updated.
>
> Because we have a combination of edited manual tiddlers and generated 
> tiddlers, and also need source control for our work simultaneously, I tend 
> to relegate all control over the template to the medical informaticist and 
> put anything I want in through the build process - all tiddlers are either 
> in the template or they are generated, there is no mixing.  Once we 
> established that separation (generated tiddlers are marked in a field and 
> are all deleted and recreated during the build process), it has worked very 
> well.  Generated tiddlers can transclude manual tiddlers and vice versa, 
> which truly is wonderful.  It's somehow hard to tell whether the system is 
> filling out a template we have created or we are filling out a template the 
> build process has created - that is very liberating from the point of view 
> of generating a rapidly growing data dictionary for our data mart.  It's a 
> continual learning process and a lot of refactoring and refinement, but I 
> think the process is a lot smoother and less labor intensive than if we had 
> a system that was more biased one way or the other towards whether the main 
> point of view was the generated documentation from manual parts or the 
> manual documentation from generated parts.
>
> Best of luck,
>
> Cade
> On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 12:46:41 PM UTC-5 bob...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> Read with interest all the comments. I am trying to help and it is 
>> warming to read that you seem to agree. Other lists I have been on are less 
>> welcoming.
>>
>> Imtaz's comments are right but I would go further and argue for a rewrite 
>> of all the filter docs. The one thing I have learned is the central and 
>> crucial role of filters to the extent that I believe they need a 'Book' on 
>> their own. Filters drive just about everything and understanding them, 
>> their role and how to code them is most crucial.
>>
>> Secondly, how to address stuff needs a rewrite, what 
>> bracket/brace/underscore configuration drives me crazy and every time I get 
>> my problem fixed and then apply that to the next wiki text statement to 
>> have it fail makes things worse. I don't believe the problem is because TW 
>> is a declarative language. I have used other such languages and they don't 
>> suffer from this. It sounds as if the scope of today's browsers contributes 
>> and maybe that needs to be looked at. Looking at HTML/CSS though, the early 
>> days of hard coding have been replaced by IDE's. Maybe TW needs to change 
>> to something like an IDE with sound foundation in language grammar and 
>> possibly restrict what can be done through the IDE but with a hook to let 
>> the experienced programmer do what they want with appropriate 
>> responsibilities on results of course.
>>
>> Mario, the examples I mentioned used code like '.operator parameter'. 
>> 

Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Cade Roux]

I sympathize.

It's very hard for me to switch gears into TiddlyWiki filter and widget 
syntax.  I generate my tiddlers with a combination of SQL and PowerShell 
within and around a source template TW.  So I am dealing with two 
completely different declarative models (TW - plus HTML/CSS - and SQL 
queries) and four different imperative models (C#, Javascript, PowerShell, 
SQL procedures) on a daily basis.

I am trying to let each be the best at what it does.  So in cases where I 
might have previously generated an HTML table to put in a tiddler, I am 
instead replacing that with a macro based on a list(s) of elements put into 
a field(s) in the tiddler, and generating more of the raw data into the 
fields of the tiddlers and let them render more things based on their 
attached data.

I find the filters are really hard to deal with finding which one you 
need.  The names are so generic and terse and they are so varied.  I mean 
we have tag, tags and tagged which all have to do different things.  And 
ones like each, get, has, is, contains - all needed obviously for their 
different input and semantics, but it's hard to keep them all in your head 
there are so many compared to other languages.

I use a macro to do edit/transclusion extensively, to allow the medical 
informaticist to edit tiddlers which annotate things in various places 
which need handwritten narratives - so he gets quick feedback since 
everything is transcluded, he can see the results immediately as if he was 
building the manual in Word or some other documentation tool without having 
to cut and paste in new lists of things generated from the datamart.  He 
just transcludes them and when they are regenerated, they are updated.

Because we have a combination of edited manual tiddlers and generated 
tiddlers, and also need source control for our work simultaneously, I tend 
to relegate all control over the template to the medical informaticist and 
put anything I want in through the build process - all tiddlers are either 
in the template or they are generated, there is no mixing.  Once we 
established that separation (generated tiddlers are marked in a field and 
are all deleted and recreated during the build process), it has worked very 
well.  Generated tiddlers can transclude manual tiddlers and vice versa, 
which truly is wonderful.  It's somehow hard to tell whether the system is 
filling out a template we have created or we are filling out a template the 
build process has created - that is very liberating from the point of view 
of generating a rapidly growing data dictionary for our data mart.  It's a 
continual learning process and a lot of refactoring and refinement, but I 
think the process is a lot smoother and less labor intensive than if we had 
a system that was more biased one way or the other towards whether the main 
point of view was the generated documentation from manual parts or the 
manual documentation from generated parts.

Best of luck,

Cade
On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 12:46:41 PM UTC-5 bob...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Read with interest all the comments. I am trying to help and it is warming 
> to read that you seem to agree. Other lists I have been on are less 
> welcoming.
>
> Imtaz's comments are right but I would go further and argue for a rewrite 
> of all the filter docs. The one thing I have learned is the central and 
> crucial role of filters to the extent that I believe they need a 'Book' on 
> their own. Filters drive just about everything and understanding them, 
> their role and how to code them is most crucial.
>
> Secondly, how to address stuff needs a rewrite, what 
> bracket/brace/underscore configuration drives me crazy and every time I get 
> my problem fixed and then apply that to the next wiki text statement to 
> have it fail makes things worse. I don't believe the problem is because TW 
> is a declarative language. I have used other such languages and they don't 
> suffer from this. It sounds as if the scope of today's browsers contributes 
> and maybe that needs to be looked at. Looking at HTML/CSS though, the early 
> days of hard coding have been replaced by IDE's. Maybe TW needs to change 
> to something like an IDE with sound foundation in language grammar and 
> possibly restrict what can be done through the IDE but with a hook to let 
> the experienced programmer do what they want with appropriate 
> responsibilities on results of course.
>
> Mario, the examples I mentioned used code like '.operator parameter'. I'll 
> find some and mail them to this list.
>
> BobJ
>
> ---
>
> Dr Bob Jansen
>
> The Cultural Conversations project 
>
> Turtle Lane Studios Pty Ltd trading as the Australian Centre for Oral History
>
> 122 Cameron St, Rockdale NSW 2216, Australia 
>
> Ph (Korea): +82 10-4494-0328 <+82%2010-4494-0328> 
>
> Ph (Australia) +61 414 297 448 <+61%20414%20297%20448> 
>
> Resume: http://au.linkedin.com/in/bobjan 
>
> Skype: bobjtls 
>
> KakaoTalk: 

Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Dr Bob Jansen]

Hi All,

Read with interest all the comments. I am trying to help and it is warming to 
read that you seem to agree. Other lists I have been on are less welcoming.

Imtaz's comments are right but I would go further and argue for a rewrite of 
all the filter docs. The one thing I have learned is the central and crucial 
role of filters to the extent that I believe they need a 'Book' on their own. 
Filters drive just about everything and understanding them, their role and how 
to code them is most crucial.

Secondly, how to address stuff needs a rewrite, what bracket/brace/underscore 
configuration drives me crazy and every time I get my problem fixed and then 
apply that to the next wiki text statement to have it fail makes things worse. 
I don't believe the problem is because TW is a declarative language. I have 
used other such languages and they don't suffer from this. It sounds as if the 
scope of today's browsers contributes and maybe that needs to be looked at. 
Looking at HTML/CSS though, the early days of hard coding have been replaced by 
IDE's. Maybe TW needs to change to something like an IDE with sound foundation 
in language grammar and possibly restrict what can be done through the IDE but 
with a hook to let the experienced programmer do what they want with 
appropriate responsibilities on results of course.

Mario, the examples I mentioned used code like '.operator parameter'. I'll find 
some and mail them to this list.

BobJ
---
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> On 1 Oct 2020, at 02:46, Saq Imtiaz  wrote:
> 
> Perhaps adding a note in the String concatenation documentation, about using 
> filter operators if concatenating within filters, would be helpful.I suspect 
> that documentation hasn't been updated since the filter operators were 
> extended with addsuffix, addprefix etc.
> 
>> On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 6:13:11 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> @Bob, The PR is active at: 
>> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/4870  If you find more 
>> inconsistencies, that drove you crazy, let me know and we will see, how we 
>> can approve. 
>> 
>> The best way it can work is, if you directly write down, what would have 
>> helped you, in your words. .. I'll check if and how it can be implemented. 
>> 
>> have fun!
>> mario
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Saq Imtiaz]

Perhaps adding a note in the String concatenation documentation, about 
using filter operators if concatenating within filters, would be helpful.I 
suspect that documentation hasn't been updated since the filter operators 
were extended with addsuffix, addprefix etc.

On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 6:13:11 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> @Bob, The PR is active at: 
> https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/4870  If you find more 
> inconsistencies, that drove you crazy, let me know and we will see, how we 
> can approve. 
>
> The best way it can work is, if you directly write down, what would have 
> helped you, in your words. .. I'll check if and how it can be implemented. 
>
> have fun!
> mario
>
>
>

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Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[PMario]

Hi

@Bob, The PR is active at: 
https://github.com/Jermolene/TiddlyWiki5/pull/4870  If you find more 
inconsistencies, that drove you crazy, let me know and we will see, how we 
can approve. 

The best way it can work is, if you directly write down, what would have 
helped you, in your words. .. I'll check if and how it can be implemented. 

have fun!
mario


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Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Ed Heil]

As a programmer myself, I would agree agree that tiddlywiki doesn't let you 
exploit your existing programming knowledge very much at all.  It's very 
different from most programming environments, in that it's almost entirely 
declarative, it operates by transforming an underlying series of entities 
which are a superset of HTML; it has several different "syntaxes" that are 
appropriate in different contexts and interact in sometimes unexpected 
ways, or require unexpected means to make them interact...  There's just 
not much resemblance to the kind of programming most people do, even most 
web developers.

You kind of have to throw away everything you know about programming and 
accept that this system operates on its own terms and in its own context, 
and your existing programming knowledge will apply only in the most general 
ways.  (Although of course, if you have HTML/CSS knowledge, that knowledge 
*will* apply with respect to the appearance and structure of the final 
product of all the underlying transformation.  And if you have existing 
Javascript knowledge and are developing a JS-based plugin, that knowledge 
will apply -- but that's very advanced and seldom necessary.)

On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 10:48:01 AM UTC-4 PMario wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> I didn't read the whole thread. Only this post and I downloaded. the 
> "Standard Nomenclature.json" from Tony.
>
> On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 1:28:12 PM UTC+2, Bob Jansen wrote:
>
> The tiddlywiki wiki entry on Variables in Wikitext has the example, 
>>
>> <$set name=animal value=zebra> 
>> <> 
>> 
>>
>
> That's right. Consistency is an issue and we try hard to fix it. ... 
>
> TW documentation should consistently use double quotes. It should look 
> like this. I'll create a PR after finishing this post.
>
> <$set name=animal value="zebra"> 
> <> 
> 
>
> As long as there are no spaces and "special chars" quotes are not needed. 
>
>  
>
>> Your cheatsheet, which I know you passed to me before it has been 
>> reviewed, has a similar example
>>
>> <$set name='var' value='Foo'> 
>> <> 
>> 
>>
>
> It's the users taste. So users can use different quotes if they want. The 
> macro call syntax is described in the docs 
> .
>  
> The search string is "macro call"
>  
>
>> Note one difference, the use of quotes around the variable name and value 
>> attributes. So which is it, are quotes required or not? Do quotes matter? I 
>> would assume quotes do matter and if so why does the official documentation 
>> leave them out.
>>
>
> See the link above. Quotes do matter *as soon as you have special 
> characters* in parameter values. That's why the rule for TW PRs with 
> documentation is: Quotes must be used. ... BUT I'm sure there are some 
> oversights. 
>
> I'll post a link to the PR. If you find more problems tell me there and 
> I'll try to fix it with that PR.
>
>  
>
>> I also assume the macro call should read <> and this is 
>> just a mistype. 
>>
>
> <>  ... This is a macro call without any parameters. Macro 
> names -- see link above.
>  
>
>> But this hows that even such a simple statement's documentation is 
>> inconsistent.
>>
>
> Sure if you use different sources. Different users have different 
> preferences. ... 
> For single word values you'll find many of *my personal* examples here in 
> the group without quotes, because I'm lazy. 
>
> *The TW docs should have them. ... If not, it needs to be fixed. *
>
>  
>
>> Now, if quotes don't matter I assume it is because no values have spaces?
>>
>
> right. But as soon as you have other chars than A-Z, a-z and 0-9 you have 
> to use quotes, even if you don't have spaces. 
>  
>
>> But this is an exception rule and as we all know one exception breeds 
>> other exceptions and soon we have so many exceptions that the only real 
>> exception is the initial idea. In all other programming languages that I 
>> know of, strings are quote delimited. A simple lesson learned once and 
>> applied all over the place.
>>
>
> You are right, but we can't enforce this, since TW needs to be able to 
> work with copy/pasted html code. Browsers don't enforce those quotes, if 
> they are not needed. They use what's intended. 
>
> We have
>
> <$list filter="[tag[x]]" /> and we can have <$list filter=<> /> 
> which is a completely different thing
>
> The first example shows all tiddlers tagged: x
>
> The second example uses a filter, that is stored in a *variable *named: 
> myFilter. A working code for the second example is: 
>
> \define myFilter() [tag[x]]
>
> <$list filter=<> />
>
> Yes ... internally macros are variables. 
>
>  <$list filter="<>" />  will be interpreted as a tiddler name 
> <>, which probably doesn't make sense for most users. 
>
>  
>
>> Your cheatsheet on the  element states
>> "Does *only* work as a *filter variable*, inside or outside a macro:"
>> As 

Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[PMario]

Hi folks,

I didn't read the whole thread. Only this post and I downloaded. the 
"Standard Nomenclature.json" from Tony.

On Wednesday, September 30, 2020 at 1:28:12 PM UTC+2, Bob Jansen wrote:

The tiddlywiki wiki entry on Variables in Wikitext has the example, 
>
> <$set name=animal value=zebra> 
> <> 
> 
>

That's right. Consistency is an issue and we try hard to fix it. ... 

TW documentation should consistently use double quotes. It should look like 
this. I'll create a PR after finishing this post.

<$set name=animal value="zebra"> 
<> 


As long as there are no spaces and "special chars" quotes are not needed. 

 

> Your cheatsheet, which I know you passed to me before it has been 
> reviewed, has a similar example
>
> <$set name='var' value='Foo'> 
> <> 
> 
>

It's the users taste. So users can use different quotes if they want. The 
macro call syntax is described in the docs 
.
 
The search string is "macro call"
 

> Note one difference, the use of quotes around the variable name and value 
> attributes. So which is it, are quotes required or not? Do quotes matter? I 
> would assume quotes do matter and if so why does the official documentation 
> leave them out.
>

See the link above. Quotes do matter *as soon as you have special 
characters* in parameter values. That's why the rule for TW PRs with 
documentation is: Quotes must be used. ... BUT I'm sure there are some 
oversights. 

I'll post a link to the PR. If you find more problems tell me there and 
I'll try to fix it with that PR.

 

> I also assume the macro call should read <> and this is 
> just a mistype. 
>

<>  ... This is a macro call without any parameters. Macro 
names -- see link above.
 

> But this hows that even such a simple statement's documentation is 
> inconsistent.
>

Sure if you use different sources. Different users have different 
preferences. ... 
For single word values you'll find many of *my personal* examples here in 
the group without quotes, because I'm lazy. 

*The TW docs should have them. ... If not, it needs to be fixed. *

 

> Now, if quotes don't matter I assume it is because no values have spaces?
>

right. But as soon as you have other chars than A-Z, a-z and 0-9 you have 
to use quotes, even if you don't have spaces. 
 

> But this is an exception rule and as we all know one exception breeds 
> other exceptions and soon we have so many exceptions that the only real 
> exception is the initial idea. In all other programming languages that I 
> know of, strings are quote delimited. A simple lesson learned once and 
> applied all over the place.
>

You are right, but we can't enforce this, since TW needs to be able to work 
with copy/pasted html code. Browsers don't enforce those quotes, if they 
are not needed. They use what's intended. 

We have

<$list filter="[tag[x]]" /> and we can have <$list filter=<> /> 
which is a completely different thing

The first example shows all tiddlers tagged: x

The second example uses a filter, that is stored in a *variable *named: 
myFilter. A working code for the second example is: 

\define myFilter() [tag[x]]

<$list filter=<> />

Yes ... internally macros are variables. 

 <$list filter="<>" />  will be interpreted as a tiddler name 
<>, which probably doesn't make sense for most users. 

 

> Your cheatsheet on the  element states
> "Does *only* work as a *filter variable*, inside or outside a macro:"
> As something is either inside or outside of a macro, this should always 
> work as a filter variable then cause it can't be in any other state so the 
> statement doesn't make sense.
>

A link would be nice, so others can follow. I can't comment on this one.  

Another example, concatenation of strings. Search for concatenate in TW 
> documentation and you get the  tiddler, Concatenating text and variables 
> using macro substitution, which categorically states that the only way to 
> do this is to use a macro. So I used a macro. Could not get the macro to 
> function as expected inside a $list loop. You and Eric explained that it 
> can not be used this was inside a $list loop but where does it state that 
> in the documentation?
>

YES. This is one of the biggest sins in TW docs and how TW works. It causes 
problems for every new user and getting it right in bigger junks of code is 
hard, even for advanced users. .. I do have an idea to solve it, but not 
enough "pain" / time to fix it. 

 

> Many of the examples in the TW documentation use what appears to be a 
> macrocall of some sort to perform the example. So you cannot see the actual 
> statements used, you can only see the result of the macrocall. Not very 
> helpful really is it. Why not just use simple statements that anyone can 
> follow after all we are after a real example to see how things are done.
>

I don't know exactly, what you mean here. Can you provide a 

Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Bob Jansen]

Tones,

Please accept this reply in the spirit it is intended, as constructive 
input into the issue of learning TW wikitext and not as an attack on 
anyone, TW or this group.

A simple example.

The tiddlywiki wiki entry on Variables in Wikitext has the example, 

<$set name=animal value=zebra> 
<> 


Your cheatsheet, which I know you passed to me before it has been reviewed, 
has a similar example

<$set name='var' value='Foo'> 
<> 


Note one difference, the use of quotes around the variable name and value 
attributes. So which is it, are quotes required or not? Do quotes matter? I 
would assume quotes do matter and if so why does the official documentation 
leave them out. I also assume the macro call should read <> 
and this is just a mistype. But this hows that even such a simple 
statement's documentation is inconsistent. Now, if quotes don't matter I 
assume it is because no values have spaces? But this is an exception rule 
and as we all know one exception breeds other exceptions and soon we have 
so many exceptions that the only real exception is the initial idea. In all 
other programming languages that I know of, strings are quote delimited. A 
simple lesson learned once and applied all over the place.

Your cheatsheet on the  element states
"Does *only* work as a *filter variable*, inside or outside a macro:"
As something is either inside or outside of a macro, this should always 
work as a filter variable then cause it can't be in any other state so the 
statement doesn't make sense.

Another example, concatenation of strings. Search for concatenate in TW 
documentation and you get the  tiddler, Concatenating text and variables 
using macro substitution, which categorically states that the only way to 
do this is to use a macro. So I used a macro. Could not get the macro to 
function as expected inside a $list loop. You and Eric explained that it 
can not be used this was inside a $list loop but where does it state that 
in the documentation?

Many of the examples in the TW documentation use what appears to be a 
macrocall of some sort to perform the example. So you cannot see the actual 
statements used, you can only see the result of the macrocall. Not very 
helpful really is it. Why not just use simple statements that anyone can 
follow after all we are after a real example to see how things are done.

As for referencing values inside tiddlers, it seems there are many 
possibilities involving various configurations of 
quotes/brackets/braces/underscores. Why is there not a single method of 
referencing content? Eric, in an earlier email, described it as the calling 
context's problem to work out what is required. Yet in all other 
programming languages that I have used over the 40+ years of my 
programming, referencing a variable is always the same in a particular 
language, it is not dependent on the calling content, nor is it dependent 
on how it is being used, it is defined in the grammar of the language. Now 
maybe this is an attribute of web applications. Maybe it is the result of 
organic development as Atro states. Whatever it is, it is bloody difficult 
to grasp and so becomes very frustrating. 

My development progress at this stage is a single wikitext statement at a 
time involving much input from the helpful people on this group.Each time, 
I learn a bit more but applying that learning quickly fails with the next 
statement.

Your email to Atro and I asks, "perhaps you can't see the logic yet"

Too right! I don't see any logic yet. I have studied your cheatsheet and 
the references it makes to others' work as well as various emails from Eric 
and the Tiddlywiki documentation and I still don't see any logic in it. 
 Perusing the emails on this list indicates I am not the only one and there 
seems to be some recognition that this is a real problem for TW uptake.

Someone earlier suggested I contribute to the documentation but I don't 
understand enough to be able to do that. Any contribution I could make 
would, right now, be wrong, misleading and totally misunderstanding of the 
design philosophy behind TW.

I am continuing to use TW for my web app but at some stage will have to 
make the decision as to whether it is worth my time and effort to continue. 
I feel TW has a great potential but believe the development side needs to 
be addressed.

I am nearly 60% way through another TW app that simple involves my editing 
content and this is working well and is getting welcome acceptance. 
http://cultconv.com/English/Conversations/MacQueen_Mary/TiddlyWiki/index.html. 
FYI, for this application, I have created a Filemaker Pro database into 
which I type the various content elements and then generate the required 
Wikitext which I then cut and past into the appropriate tiddler. This has 
proved very efficient over typing directly into TW. 

Hope this helps. Happy to discuss further and do what I can to address 
these concerns/issues.

bobj
 

Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[TW Tones]

Bob/Atro

Bob I don't understand your statement "*no consistency in the parsing of 
wikitext*", perhaps you can't see the logic yet? but do share the 
inconsistencies?

Mario, I and others are working on a new wiki text customise solution which 
adds so much power, it will blow you mind, but it still needs to sit on top 
of the current Wiki text, so we should raise issues to fix egregious 
examples of inconsistencies.

Though keep in mind a widget is  "subprogram" of sorts. The internal 
widgets are highly consistent (a few exceptions), however third party ones 
vary as for any similar case.

Regards
Tones

On Monday, 28 September 2020 15:25:18 UTC+10, Bob Jansen wrote:
>
> Atro,
>
> you are right, the problems are in writing wikitext. The real problem, as 
> far as I can understand it, is that the documentation is incomplete and 
> messy AND that there seems to be no consistency in the parsing of wikitext. 
> That may be because different people write different widgets, macros, etc, 
> but this does not help the naive user like me.
>
> I am a programmer, have been programming for over 40 years. So it is not 
> an issue with how to program or its concepts. Like other programming 
> languages, there is an expectation of consistency, but  may be this is not 
> an attribute of web applications.
>
> Still, we keep trying and getting better...slowely :-)
>
> bobj
>
> On Monday, 28 September 2020 at 14:13:47 UTC+10 Atronoush wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>  Most of your problems come from how to write Tiddlywiki scripts (e.g. 
>> wikitext). One the best resource in this regards is
>> https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/ from Mohammad
>>
>> For example what you asked in this post has been addressed in TW-Scripts
>> Look at: Syntax Summary 
>> 
>>
>> You are quite right, the documentation in Tiddlywiki.com is nonlinear and 
>> confusing for newbies. Perhaps a linear A to Z step by step tutorial is 
>> better.
>>
>> Atro
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 10:22 AM Bob Jansen  wrote:
>>
>>> I know and am very thankful of the many items of advice I have received 
>>> in the past. But I am still frustrated - there must be some core element I 
>>> am not understanding.
>>>
>>> The main issue is how to address items in wikitext, {{ [[ {{{ << <  etc. 
>>> I know this all depends on how the item is being used but a simple cheat 
>>> sheet with many examples would be really useful. I don't find the 
>>> Tiddlywiki documentation easy to follow, bits are all over the place and 
>>> none of the examples address my problems I find.
>>>
>>> For example, why does this not work?
>>>
>>> <$button>
>>> <$action-setfield
>>>  $tiddler="$:/TLS/exhibition_id"
>>>  $value={{!!exhibition_id}}
>>> />
>>> 
>>> <$list filter="[tag[Mark]]">
>>>  <$action-setfield 
>>>   $field="exhibition_id" 
>>>   $value=<>> {{$:/TLS/exhibition_id}}>>
>>>  /> 
>>> 
>>>
>>> Link Artworks to Exhibition
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> The result is the string {{!!exhibition_id}} {{$:/TLS/exhibition_id}} 
>>> stored in the exhibition_id field of each artwork selected and not the 
>>> transcluded values.
>>>
>>> TLSconcatenate is a simple macro to concatenate two strings
>>>
>>> \define TLSconcatenate(head tail) $head$$tail$
>>>
>>> bobj
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/4cc4b26e-250b-4c7f-8590-fc0ae5dd7db0n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>

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Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Atronoush Parsi]

Bob,
Quite agree with you. I am a programmer too but for number crunching
(Python, Fortran, C). I have seen several times people raised similar
questions and what I see as the answer was TW has been grown organically.
There are reasons for inconsistency and I understand part of that, but
learning TW wikitext specially if you like to develop a working
plugin/script with many wikitext is really cumbersome. It would be great to
see some common logic and consistency!

One philosophy in TW developing is restricted backward compatibility and
this is appreciated, but this prevents some inconsistency!  There are
discussions in the forum to have a breakthrough release, but it is a
difficult decision to make.

Atro




On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 8:55 AM Bob Jansen  wrote:

> Atro,
>
> you are right, the problems are in writing wikitext. The real problem, as
> far as I can understand it, is that the documentation is incomplete and
> messy AND that there seems to be no consistency in the parsing of wikitext.
> That may be because different people write different widgets, macros, etc,
> but this does not help the naive user like me.
>
> I am a programmer, have been programming for over 40 years. So it is not
> an issue with how to program or its concepts. Like other programming
> languages, there is an expectation of consistency, but  may be this is not
> an attribute of web applications.
>
> Still, we keep trying and getting better...slowely :-)
>
> bobj
>
> On Monday, 28 September 2020 at 14:13:47 UTC+10 Atronoush wrote:
>
>> Bob,
>>  Most of your problems come from how to write Tiddlywiki scripts (e.g.
>> wikitext). One the best resource in this regards is
>> https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/ from Mohammad
>>
>> For example what you asked in this post has been addressed in TW-Scripts
>> Look at: Syntax Summary
>> 
>>
>> You are quite right, the documentation in Tiddlywiki.com is nonlinear and
>> confusing for newbies. Perhaps a linear A to Z step by step tutorial is
>> better.
>>
>> Atro
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 10:22 AM Bob Jansen  wrote:
>>
>>> I know and am very thankful of the many items of advice I have received
>>> in the past. But I am still frustrated - there must be some core element I
>>> am not understanding.
>>>
>>> The main issue is how to address items in wikitext, {{ [[ {{{ << <  etc.
>>> I know this all depends on how the item is being used but a simple cheat
>>> sheet with many examples would be really useful. I don't find the
>>> Tiddlywiki documentation easy to follow, bits are all over the place and
>>> none of the examples address my problems I find.
>>>
>>> For example, why does this not work?
>>>
>>> <$button>
>>> <$action-setfield
>>>  $tiddler="$:/TLS/exhibition_id"
>>>  $value={{!!exhibition_id}}
>>> />
>>> 
>>> <$list filter="[tag[Mark]]">
>>>  <$action-setfield
>>>   $field="exhibition_id"
>>>   $value=<>> {{$:/TLS/exhibition_id}}>>
>>>  />
>>> 
>>>
>>> Link Artworks to Exhibition
>>> 
>>>
>>>
>>> The result is the string {{!!exhibition_id}} {{$:/TLS/exhibition_id}}
>>> stored in the exhibition_id field of each artwork selected and not the
>>> transcluded values.
>>>
>>> TLSconcatenate is a simple macro to concatenate two strings
>>>
>>> \define TLSconcatenate(head tail) $head$$tail$
>>>
>>> bobj
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "TiddlyWiki" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to tiddlywiki+...@googlegroups.com.
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Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Bob Jansen]

Atro,

you are right, the problems are in writing wikitext. The real problem, as 
far as I can understand it, is that the documentation is incomplete and 
messy AND that there seems to be no consistency in the parsing of wikitext. 
That may be because different people write different widgets, macros, etc, 
but this does not help the naive user like me.

I am a programmer, have been programming for over 40 years. So it is not an 
issue with how to program or its concepts. Like other programming 
languages, there is an expectation of consistency, but  may be this is not 
an attribute of web applications.

Still, we keep trying and getting better...slowely :-)

bobj

On Monday, 28 September 2020 at 14:13:47 UTC+10 Atronoush wrote:

> Bob,
>  Most of your problems come from how to write Tiddlywiki scripts (e.g. 
> wikitext). One the best resource in this regards is
> https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/ from Mohammad
>
> For example what you asked in this post has been addressed in TW-Scripts
> Look at: Syntax Summary 
> 
>
> You are quite right, the documentation in Tiddlywiki.com is nonlinear and 
> confusing for newbies. Perhaps a linear A to Z step by step tutorial is 
> better.
>
> Atro
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 10:22 AM Bob Jansen  wrote:
>
>> I know and am very thankful of the many items of advice I have received 
>> in the past. But I am still frustrated - there must be some core element I 
>> am not understanding.
>>
>> The main issue is how to address items in wikitext, {{ [[ {{{ << <  etc. 
>> I know this all depends on how the item is being used but a simple cheat 
>> sheet with many examples would be really useful. I don't find the 
>> Tiddlywiki documentation easy to follow, bits are all over the place and 
>> none of the examples address my problems I find.
>>
>> For example, why does this not work?
>>
>> <$button>
>> <$action-setfield
>>  $tiddler="$:/TLS/exhibition_id"
>>  $value={{!!exhibition_id}}
>> />
>> 
>> <$list filter="[tag[Mark]]">
>>  <$action-setfield 
>>   $field="exhibition_id" 
>>   $value=<> {{$:/TLS/exhibition_id}}>>
>>  /> 
>> 
>>
>> Link Artworks to Exhibition
>> 
>>
>>
>> The result is the string {{!!exhibition_id}} {{$:/TLS/exhibition_id}} 
>> stored in the exhibition_id field of each artwork selected and not the 
>> transcluded values.
>>
>> TLSconcatenate is a simple macro to concatenate two strings
>>
>> \define TLSconcatenate(head tail) $head$$tail$
>>
>> bobj
>>
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Still frustrated

[Atronoush Parsi]

Bob,
 Most of your problems come from how to write Tiddlywiki scripts (e.g.
wikitext). One the best resource in this regards is
https://kookma.github.io/TW-Scripts/ from Mohammad

For example what you asked in this post has been addressed in TW-Scripts
Look at: Syntax Summary


You are quite right, the documentation in Tiddlywiki.com is nonlinear and
confusing for newbies. Perhaps a linear A to Z step by step tutorial is
better.

Atro

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 10:22 AM Bob Jansen  wrote:

> I know and am very thankful of the many items of advice I have received in
> the past. But I am still frustrated - there must be some core element I am
> not understanding.
>
> The main issue is how to address items in wikitext, {{ [[ {{{ << <  etc. I
> know this all depends on how the item is being used but a simple cheat
> sheet with many examples would be really useful. I don't find the
> Tiddlywiki documentation easy to follow, bits are all over the place and
> none of the examples address my problems I find.
>
> For example, why does this not work?
>
> <$button>
> <$action-setfield
>  $tiddler="$:/TLS/exhibition_id"
>  $value={{!!exhibition_id}}
> />
> 
> <$list filter="[tag[Mark]]">
>  <$action-setfield
>   $field="exhibition_id"
>   $value=< {{$:/TLS/exhibition_id}}>>
>  />
> 
>
> Link Artworks to Exhibition
> 
>
>
> The result is the string {{!!exhibition_id}} {{$:/TLS/exhibition_id}}
> stored in the exhibition_id field of each artwork selected and not the
> transcluded values.
>
> TLSconcatenate is a simple macro to concatenate two strings
>
> \define TLSconcatenate(head tail) $head$$tail$
>
> bobj
>
> --
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> "TiddlyWiki" group.
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/tiddlywiki/4cc4b26e-250b-4c7f-8590-fc0ae5dd7db0n%40googlegroups.com
> 
> .
>

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[tw5] Still frustrated

[Bob Jansen]

I know and am very thankful of the many items of advice I have received in 
the past. But I am still frustrated - there must be some core element I am 
not understanding.

The main issue is how to address items in wikitext, {{ [[ {{{ << <  etc. I 
know this all depends on how the item is being used but a simple cheat 
sheet with many examples would be really useful. I don't find the 
Tiddlywiki documentation easy to follow, bits are all over the place and 
none of the examples address my problems I find.

For example, why does this not work?

<$button>
<$action-setfield
 $tiddler="$:/TLS/exhibition_id"
 $value={{!!exhibition_id}}
/>

<$list filter="[tag[Mark]]">
 <$action-setfield 
  $field="exhibition_id" 
  $value=<>
 /> 


Link Artworks to Exhibition



The result is the string {{!!exhibition_id}} {{$:/TLS/exhibition_id}} 
stored in the exhibition_id field of each artwork selected and not the 
transcluded values.

TLSconcatenate is a simple macro to concatenate two strings

\define TLSconcatenate(head tail) $head$$tail$

bobj

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