Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[John Miles]

Measurements taken from 3325B at 1 MHz:

5370B reference:   INT  EXT (same 5087A as 3325B uses)
Square wave, 2v pk:15-20 ps 11-12 ps
Sine wave, 2v pk:  50-70 ps 30-35 ps
Square wave, 1v pk:20-25 ps 12-13 ps
Sine wave, 1v pk:  60-80 ps 40-45 ps
Square wave, .1v pk:   40-60 ps 40-45 ps
Sine wave, .1v pk: 600-900 ps   500-600 ps

-- john, KE5FX
 

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[John Miles]

> > My 5370A currently has the following characteristics:
> > With the EXT 10MHz connected to the input jitter is 15ps.
> > With an FTS1200 5MHz input signal jitter is 46ps.
> > With an external GPS locked 10MHz input signal jitter is 45ps.
> >
> > This illustrates the danger in believing the jitter measured with a
> > coherent input signal.
> >
> > Bruce
>
> Thanks much for the measurements. I agree with the
> conclusions.
>
> There have been several threads recently where people
> use a counters' reference output as one of the inputs.
> I'm not sure where the idea comes from, but it seems
> ill advised to me.

In the case of the 5370, page 3-12 of the manual is where it came from ("15.
Press STD DEV and +/- TI switch.  Display should read less than 100 ps (this
reading is the instrument's jitter).")

At some point between my original 2316 edition and the 2904 edition scanned
by David Kirkby, they apparently changed this step to call for pressing the
+TI switch, unless the +/- symbol failed to scan properly.  I get about
10-15 ps more jitter in +TI ONLY mode for whatever reason.

The last time I studied the manual, I remember being convinced that the 5370
would be relatively immune to clock-correlation effects if the interpolators
were set up properly.  The trouble is, I tend to remember how this thing
works for all of about 3 days after I put the manual back on the shelf...
and the last time I looked at it was several months ago.  All I can say
right now is that I believe that slew rate at the zero crossings is a bigger
concern than whether the signal being measured is correlated with the
internal clock.

I would almost put money on the problem with Said's unit being dirty
switches or another basic signal-conditioning issue.

-- john, KE5FX


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Christopher Hoover]

John Miles wrote:
> Ultimately, people (including myself) need to grow a pair and start
leaving
> neutral/negative feedback for sellers who pack carelessly

That's probably true.  I'm up for it.

-ch



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[Tom Van Baak]

> The unit is actually relatively young (1990's), and has virtually no  dust 
> whatsoever in it. Seems to have had very low usage. The actual 10MHz is  
> pretty 
> accurate, to within 10mHz.
> 
> Has anyone else measured the 5370B output jitter?
> 
> bye,
> Said

Oh so many projects, so little time. I have several 5370A/B
including one NIB and would like to help you out with what
maybe is typical and what isn't.

What definition of jitter are you using? Are you looking at
every zero-crossing at 10 MHz? Or every Nth one? What
sample size? Or would you rather know the ADEV at tau
1 second? etc.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Neon John]

On Sat, 9 Jun 2007 15:27:29 -0400, "Norman J McSweyn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Apropos the conversation:
>Techrecovery sold me a 5370a that was toast. The customer service guy gave 
>me a runaround for six weeks trying to first get another instrument and 
>after I gave that up as a lost cause, then a refund.
>I had to threaten to get MasterCard involved.
>My MO is to give the feedback that is deserved. Screw my feedback rating. It 
>hurts the seller more than the buyer.
>Happy ebaying!
>Norm n3ykf 

Something else you might consider doing is having two sleazebay accounts, one 
for
selling and one for buying.  I did that before I got fed up with the whole 
sleazebay
culture and blew 'em off.  I had absolutely no problem giving the sellers the
feedback they deserved.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.johndearmond.com <-- best little blog on the net!
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Okay, okay, I'll take it back ... UNfuck you!


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[Tom Van Baak]

> John
> 
> My 5370A currently has the following characteristics:
> With the EXT 10MHz connected to the input jitter is 15ps.
> With an FTS1200 5MHz input signal jitter is 46ps.
> With an external GPS locked 10MHz input signal jitter is 45ps.
> 
> This illustrates the danger in believing the jitter measured with a 
> coherent input signal.
> 
> Bruce

Thanks much for the measurements. I agree with the
conclusions.

There have been several threads recently where people
use a counters' reference output as one of the inputs.
I'm not sure where the idea comes from, but it seems
ill advised to me.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[John Miles]

(Sorry, meant to delete my quoted text but deleted Bruce's instead)

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of John Miles
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 7:09 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370
> 
> 
> It only goes up to 20-25 ps here, measuring the Thunderbolt->5087A output
> while running from the internal reference.  About the same as what I see
> when measuring either the 8640B or 8662A.  Definitely some 
> correlation going
> on, but not as significant a difference.
> 
> That is probably the sort of thing that the (no doubt misadjusted)
> interpolator trimmers are designed to minimize.
> 
> -- john, KE5FX
> 

John

My 5370A currently has the following characteristics:
With the EXT 10MHz connected to the input jitter is 15ps.
With an FTS1200 5MHz input signal jitter is 46ps.
With an external GPS locked 10MHz input signal jitter is 45ps.

This illustrates the danger in believing the jitter measured with a 
coherent input signal.

Bruce
 

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[John Miles]

It only goes up to 20-25 ps here, measuring the Thunderbolt->5087A output
while running from the internal reference.  About the same as what I see
when measuring either the 8640B or 8662A.  Definitely some correlation going
on, but not as significant a difference.

That is probably the sort of thing that the (no doubt misadjusted)
interpolator trimmers are designed to minimize.

-- john, KE5FX


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Dr Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 6:59 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370
>
>
> John Miles wrote:
> > Pretty similar results here, taken from the 5370B's rear-panel
> output while
> > running on the internal 10811B (attached).  Indicated jitter
> with this setup
> > is about the same as it was on the ext ref via the 5087A (10-12 ps).
> >
> > I've seen this counter return self-test jitter results in the
> 15-25 ps range
> > before.  Not sure why it's in such a good mood today.
> >
> > At any rate, it doesn't appear that the wave shape is a
> problem... but of
> > course, you will usually get better jitter readings with a fast
> edge than
> > with a sine wave.
> >
> > -- john, KE5FX
>


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[Dr Bruce Griffiths]

John Miles wrote:
> Pretty similar results here, taken from the 5370B's rear-panel output while
> running on the internal 10811B (attached).  Indicated jitter with this setup
> is about the same as it was on the ext ref via the 5087A (10-12 ps).
>
> I've seen this counter return self-test jitter results in the 15-25 ps range
> before.  Not sure why it's in such a good mood today.
>
> At any rate, it doesn't appear that the wave shape is a problem... but of
> course, you will usually get better jitter readings with a fast edge than
> with a sine wave.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>   
John

My 5370A currently has the following characteristics:
With the EXT 10MHz connected to the input jitter is 15ps.
With an FTS1200 5MHz input signal jitter is 46ps.
With an external GPS locked 10MHz input signal jitter is 45ps.

This illustrates the danger in believing the jitter measured with a 
coherent input signal.

Bruce

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Didier Juges]

I have had two really bad packing jobs come to me, with serious damage, 
and in both cases, the vendor made it right. A DC-503 counter and TM-501 
mainframe came
 with the front panel busted (but still working) and the seller gave me 
full credit. In another case (not quite as much damage on an HP 8657B), 
the vendor gave me a partial refund that was fair.

Both vendors apologized and said they would pay more attention. These 
vendors got positive feedback. I am not sure what else I could have done 
under the old feedback system.

I consider myself lucky, and I am prepared for the day I am not so lucky 
(at least I hope I am prepared...)

Didier KO4BB


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[Didier Juges]

Said,

You sent pictures of the Fury's waveform, only the spectrum of the 5370. 
I did not look at the spectrum at the time, bu the waveform on the scope 
was low in amplitude and looked like 30 MHz with some 10 MHz component. 
It turns out a cap in the output filter was not making contact, and the 
output filter was resonant around 30 MHz.

I should have the picture somewhere but can't find it.

Didier

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  
> In a message dated 6/9/2007 17:00:32 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>  
> writes:
>
>   
>> One  of my 5370A's had a severely distorted sine out, which Bruce helped  me
>> trace to a bad solder joint
>> Didier  
>> 
>
>
>
> Hi Didier,
>  
> was it worse than the scope picture I just sent out?
>  
> thanks,
> Said
>
>
>
> ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[John Miles]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Dr Bruce Griffiths
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 5:53 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

> Internal crosstalk can cause the 5370 to appear to be much better than
> specified.
> The jitter will vary as you vary the length of the cable connecting the
> external 10MHz output to the input.
> If the input is attenuated (inadvertently by internal fault or
> otherwise) the jitter will increase considerably with a sine wave input.

That's a really good point, actually.  Said, have you done an input
sensitivity check?  It's really common for the x1/x10 attenuator and other
front-panel switches to be intermittent.  It is not hard to take the front
panel apart, disassemble the switches, and treat them with ProGold or a
similar high-quality cleaner/lube.  You may need to do that before the
jitter values make sense.

-- john, KE5FX


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[Dr Bruce Griffiths]

John Miles wrote:
> Pretty similar results here, taken from the 5370B's rear-panel output while
> running on the internal 10811B (attached).  Indicated jitter with this setup
> is about the same as it was on the ext ref via the 5087A (10-12 ps).
>
> I've seen this counter return self-test jitter results in the 15-25 ps range
> before.  Not sure why it's in such a good mood today.
>
> At any rate, it doesn't appear that the wave shape is a problem... but of
> course, you will usually get better jitter readings with a fast edge than
> with a sine wave.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>   
John

Internal crosstalk can cause the 5370 to appear to be much better than 
specified.
The jitter will vary as you vary the length of the cable connecting the 
external 10MHz output to the input.
If the input is attenuated (inadvertently by internal fault or 
otherwise) the jitter will increase considerably with a sine wave input.

It would be nice to have a look at the jitter spectrum (of Said's 5370 
), to see if there are any line frequency related components.
After 20 years or less some of the power supply electros may be suspect.


Bruce


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[John Miles]

Pretty similar results here, taken from the 5370B's rear-panel output while
running on the internal 10811B (attached).  Indicated jitter with this setup
is about the same as it was on the ext ref via the 5087A (10-12 ps).

I've seen this counter return self-test jitter results in the 15-25 ps range
before.  Not sure why it's in such a good mood today.

At any rate, it doesn't appear that the wave shape is a problem... but of
course, you will usually get better jitter readings with a fast edge than
with a sine wave.

-- john, KE5FX

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 4:44 PM
> To: time-nuts@febo.com
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370
>
>
>
> In a message dated 6/9/2007 14:56:04 Pacific Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >Can  you send an image of the rear panel sinewave output  waveform?
>
> >Bruce
>
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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[John Miles]

I am definitely not qualified to calibrate them for money.  I will generally
take a look at peoples' gear for free as long as they understand that
they're lucky if it works as well when it leaves my bench as it did when
they brought it over. :)

-- john, KE5FX


>
> Wow, 10ps RMS is nice. I would be happy to pay someone a couple
> 100 $  to get
> mine to work well with <30ps RMS without fiddling with the Trigger  pots.
>
> I don't have the time to learn how to cal it myself,  also I am
> missing the
> right equipment and don't want to make things worse...
>
> Yes, the range on both pots is +-2.2V, and it shows 0.00V when in
> preset -
> no problem there.
>
> The unit had original Agilent cal labels on it, so I suspect last
> time it
> was properly calibrated, the date code is 2001.
>


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[Dr Bruce Griffiths]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Bruce,
>  
> just found out that the 10MHz output looks very much like the  picture in the 
> 5370B service manual.
>  
> I am not impressed. HP could have done a better job on that output :( Maybe  
> my unit isn't broken after all, maybe the 200ps RMS jitter is normal?
>  
> I attached some pics of the 5370B 10MHz output here.
>  
> Will send plots of the Fury sine output in separate email, then plots of  
> both Fury and 5370B 10MHz outputs on the spectrum analyzer.
>
> The 5370B is quite noisy, energy up to 700MHz. That's also clearly  visible 
> in the sine wave.
>  
> Of course the 200ps RMS jitter is not visible in these pics.
>  
> bye,
> Said
>   
The HP5370 external output isnt taken directly from the internal xtal 
oscillator, but is squared up using a sting of ECL line receivers and 
then its fed to a longtailed pair which produces a squarewave collector 
current. An LC tank in the collector filters out the 10MHz component.
The simple output filter will off course not attenuate the higher 
harmonics as much as you may like.
However as long as the amplitude and phase of each harmonic is stable 
they will have little effect on the jitter.

A 200ps jitter from the EXT 10MHz output isnt normal.
Even the low cost oscillator option is far better than this.

Remove the 10811 and power it up externally and then check its output 
jitter.
It can drive a 50 ohm load directly.
Its output waveform should be much cleaner than that of the 10MHz output.

Bruce

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[SAIDJACK]

 
In a message dated 6/9/2007 17:00:32 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
writes:

>One  of my 5370A's had a severely distorted sine out, which Bruce helped  me
>trace to a bad solder joint
>Didier  



Hi Didier,
 
was it worse than the scope picture I just sent out?
 
thanks,
Said



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[Didier Juges]

One of my 5370A's had a severely distorted sine out, which Bruce helped me
trace to a bad solder joint on one of the cap that is part of the output
filter. After reflowing the solder joint, it all came to life with a pretty
good sinewave output.

Some of the caps on the amplifier board look different than most others. I
suspect they were maybe higher grade, but the leads must have been a
different alloy.

Didier 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dr Bruce Griffiths
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 4:55 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>  
> this was the recommended setup (by HP) for checking the internal  
> noise. Feed the 10MHz output back to the input using a short cable, 
> and set the  unit for "COMMON" input, setting 50 Ohm impedance etc.
>  
> In the meantime I did some more tests, and found the following:
>  
>1) The sine-wave output is crappy. The sine wave has some sort  of 
> "Class-B" cross-over distortion, and it measures a whooping 200ps RMS 
> jitter  on my Wavecrest jitter analyzer (>400ps pk-pk). Compare that 
> to 2.7ps RMS  jitter I measure on our Fury 10MHz output. Definitely 
> the crystal got damaged,  or something else.
>  
> The unit has about 2x better jitter performance (around 50ps RMS) if I 
> feed a clean Fury 10MHz into it. I think the 10811 OCXO or the 
> internal driver circuit may have gotten damaged.
>  
>  
> thanks,
> bye,
> Said
>   
Said

Can you send an image of the rear panel sinewave output waveform?

Bruce

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--
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10:46 AM



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[SAIDJACK]

Hi Bruce,
 
and finally here is a plot of both the 5370B and the Fury 10MHz sine wave  
spectras for comparison.
 
It only takes a 5 - 9th order passive lowpass filter to make a nice sine  
wave out of the 5370B output, I wonder why HP didn't do that back then.
 
Also, I think the 10811 output itself is much better than what is  present at 
the 10MHz output.
 
bye,
Said



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[SAIDJACK]

 
In a message dated 6/9/2007 14:04:01 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
writes:


>I suspect this has been the fate of pretty much every 5370 out  there, which
>could account for some of the phase slips and other  anomalies people
>sometimes observe in long-term tests.

>--  john, KE5FX



Wow, 10ps RMS is nice. I would be happy to pay someone a couple 100 $  to get 
mine to work well with <30ps RMS without fiddling with the Trigger  pots.
 
I don't have the time to learn how to cal it myself,  also I am  missing the 
right equipment and don't want to make things worse...
 
Yes, the range on both pots is +-2.2V, and it shows 0.00V when in preset -  
no problem there.
 
The unit had original Agilent cal labels on it, so I suspect last time it  
was properly calibrated, the date code is 2001.
 
Thanks,
bye,
Said



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[time-nuts] AT&T /Lucent 10 Mhz reference Oscillator F/S

[N3IZN]

I have a AT&T /Lucent 10 Mhz reference Oscillator F/S
Part number ED2R849-31 G4
I can send pics if interested.
I got this a long time a go and it has been in my garage for a while. Now  
that I got my Trimble working I don't think I'll ever do anything with it. So  
I'm offering it up here. 
Contact me off list.
 
Thanks



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Jack Hudler]

Like $100 for 5370B and the only thing wrong was the oscillator switch set
to EXTernal.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Feher
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 5:33 PM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

"As is" implies to me that you will receive the item as pictured. Not
necessarily guaranteed to work, but, without any physical changes over what
was pictured on ebay. Some of my best purchases on ebay have been those that
the seller claimed did not work and was being sold as is. Better than 90 %
of the time the units did work, but, the seller, usually a dealer interested
in selling in quantity, does not have the facilities or knowledge to
adequately test the item. Consequently, I get these items fairly cheap as
most people will not bid on a non working item. - Mike 

 
 
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dick, W1KSZ
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 4:32 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

The answer is simple ...
Packing = $$$, right off the bottom line.

Since most, if not all electronics on e-Pay is sold
"as-is", the seller has no reason to be concerned with
the item arriving safely. Only his conscience, which,
sadly, in the case of most sellers is non-existent.

Don't blame the UPS Store, he only packs with the $$
the seller gives him.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

Hal Murray wrote:
>> Don't know why it's so difficult for folks to overpack. Worst case,
>> one  can  have it professionally packed at MailBoxes etc. or the like.
> 
> What's their batting average?  Do they recognize heavy instruments
> and/or do anything special when they see handles?
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
73, Dick, W1KSZ

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Mike Feher]

"As is" implies to me that you will receive the item as pictured. Not
necessarily guaranteed to work, but, without any physical changes over what
was pictured on ebay. Some of my best purchases on ebay have been those that
the seller claimed did not work and was being sold as is. Better than 90 %
of the time the units did work, but, the seller, usually a dealer interested
in selling in quantity, does not have the facilities or knowledge to
adequately test the item. Consequently, I get these items fairly cheap as
most people will not bid on a non working item. - Mike 

 
 
Mike B. Feher, N4FS
89 Arnold Blvd.
Howell, NJ, 07731
732-886-5960
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dick, W1KSZ
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 4:32 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

The answer is simple ...
Packing = $$$, right off the bottom line.

Since most, if not all electronics on e-Pay is sold
"as-is", the seller has no reason to be concerned with
the item arriving safely. Only his conscience, which,
sadly, in the case of most sellers is non-existent.

Don't blame the UPS Store, he only packs with the $$
the seller gives him.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

Hal Murray wrote:
>> Don't know why it's so difficult for folks to overpack. Worst case,
>> one  can  have it professionally packed at MailBoxes etc. or the like.
> 
> What's their batting average?  Do they recognize heavy instruments
> and/or do anything special when they see handles?
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
73, Dick, W1KSZ

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Re: [time-nuts] H-Maser, but not on ebait...

[Tom Van Baak]

> Since we're having a lively afternoon (or midnight for our Aussie members) on 
> Time-nuts, and talking about buying and 
> selling
> gear anyway, I think this is a good time to mention something I've been 
> putting off for too long:
> An Oscilloquartz H-maser. For sale.
> I've put some details, pictures and the manuals here: 
> http://www.arclightindustries.com/efos.html
> That page will get some more data over the next few days, and I'm sure there 
> will be tons of questions to answer.
> I hope John will forgive the commercial post, but I figured my fellow 
> Time-nuts would want to be the first to know 
> about a loose
> maser.
>
> Thanks,
> Scott

Scott,

No problem posting this on the list. I wish vintage masers would
show up more often. Too bad it's not practical to bring it up
here where I could measure it against mine.

I see it comes with manuals; does it also include the physicist?
(I've heard that, in the early days at least, that each maser
required one full-time physicist to keep it running ;-)

Do you have any comparative NRAO performance data on this
unit? Perhaps not, if it was used stand-alone. But maybe data
was collected against other NRAO masers from time to time over
the years. Any chance you or someone else could get a copy
of those test runs?

/tvb
http://www.LeapSecond.com



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[Dr Bruce Griffiths]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Tom,
>  
> this was the recommended setup (by HP) for checking the internal  noise. Feed 
> the 10MHz output back to the input using a short cable, and set the  unit for 
> "COMMON" input, setting 50 Ohm impedance etc.
>  
> In the meantime I did some more tests, and found the following:
>  
>1) The sine-wave output is crappy. The sine wave has some sort  of 
> "Class-B" cross-over distortion, and it measures a whooping 200ps RMS jitter  
> on my 
> Wavecrest jitter analyzer (>400ps pk-pk). Compare that to 2.7ps RMS  jitter I 
> measure on our Fury 10MHz output. Definitely the crystal got damaged,  or 
> something else.
>  
> The unit has about 2x better jitter performance (around 50ps RMS) if I feed  
> a clean Fury 10MHz into it. I think the 10811 OCXO or the internal driver  
> circuit may have gotten damaged.
>  
>  
> thanks,
> bye,
> Said
>   
Said

Can you send an image of the rear panel sinewave output waveform?

Bruce

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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB hint

[GerryG]

Of course you're right, John. I built a general 488 script interface on top
of his controller, and the commands are slightly expanded. I'm used to mine,
and got them confused. So I do:
++auto 0
at the start. Then
++read
for each read from each device.

Gerry K7ATS

>Message: 5
>Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 13:10:11 -0700
>From: "John Miles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB hint
>To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>   
>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>
>I assume you just mean ++auto 0 followed by ++read, right?  There's no
>++aread command in the 4.4 firmware.
>
>-- john, KE5FX

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[time-nuts] ebay: phoenix electronics/nachtengel f**k up.

[Sebastian Stolp]

i read your ebay adventures and can't hold back to tell you mine:

i won the auction on a 5062 power supply to accompany my old 5061 a/b  
cesiums.
glad that that thing cost me just 100 USD i was told i had to pay 50  
USD for packing and handling, 380 USD for shipping alone.
ok i thought - its a rare item on ebay and shipping these monsters  
was never cheap.

so i paypaled and waited.

2 weeks later a pack arrived with FEDEX. when i opened it i realised  
2 layers of bubble wrap.
i tried to pull the unit out of this papery box and held two alloy  
handles, one in each hand.
handles from the side frames broken off, front dented, rear alloy  
panel that holds the connectors completely kicked in.

sloppy packing, lack of care and thoroughness. the sender obviously  
was pissed off to have this item let go for too little money. i had  
to pay 50 dollars to have this thing packed, so one can expect a  
little more than a little bubblewrap. i got the message - knowing  
that i can't expect anything from the sender.

i reported this to fedex and fought with them to get a refund at  
least for the shipping.
pictures were taken and emailed, a case was opened and 3 months later  
fedex refunded the shipping only.

to the sender, as it was the party that initially gave them the money  
to ship the item.

the sender has been refunded the money on november the 16th 2006. he  
says he cant find the check. (FEDEX told me he had gotten the money  
for sure - i was in their files) if he will find it, he said to me on  
the phone- he will pay me the refund. haven't heard from that slob  
ever since. his name is john royer, his company is called PHOENIX  
ELECTRONICS in maryland, his ebay name is NACHTENGEL
i sometimes call to nagg him, but he would refuse to talk to me.

i have spoken to a lawyer from maryland to take that guy to court,  
but the lawyer says i have to appear in court, too. john royer will  
know that and there's no way to get my money back.

thanks for reading this,
sebastian

SEBASTIAN STOLP
 
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[time-nuts] H-Maser, but not on ebait...

[Scott Lacy]

Since we're having a lively afternoon (or midnight for our Aussie members) on 
Time-nuts, and talking about buying and selling 
gear anyway, I think this is a good time to mention something I've been putting 
off for too long:
An Oscilloquartz H-maser. For sale.
I've put some details, pictures and the manuals here: 
http://www.arclightindustries.com/efos.html
That page will get some more data over the next few days, and I'm sure there 
will be tons of questions to answer.
I hope John will forgive the commercial post, but I figured my fellow Time-nuts 
would want to be the first to know about a loose 
maser.

Thanks,
Scott



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[John Miles]

Note that while the resolution spec is 20 ps, HP's jitter spec is 100 ps, so
anything under that is fair game.  I will confess that I have never
understood how it's meaningful to specify a single-shot resolution figure
that is 5x better than the instrument's specified jitter.

10-15 ps is about what I get with mine (10 MHz from TBolt driving both the
external-ref and START jacks from separate ports of a 5087A distribution
amp).  The mode in this case is TI, STD DEV, 1K samples, +/- TI arming.

This 5370B is quieter than the others I've seen.  20-30 ps is more common
for this particular test.  I've never seen one worse than 50-60 ps, though.

Make sure that the TRIG LVL readouts are in tolerance (approx. +/- 2 V at
the limits, and within +/- 0.01V of 0V in PRESET).

To get very far in the calibration process, you need an HP 8082A triggerable
pulse generator.  Without an 8082A, you can bluff your way through the front
end adjustments and DAC level settings (beware misprints in the manual
there), but if you try to adjust the interpolator, you will find that you
have no way to tell what's going on.

I have an 8082A now, but I didn't own it the last time I was under the hood
of this 5370B, so I have no idea how well-calibrated my interpolator's
anticoincidence circuit is.  It probably isn't, considering that I got
halfway through the calibration, realized that no, they're not kidding, you
really DO need an 8082A, and tried to put the trimmers back somewhere close
to what I remembered seeing before I messed with them.

I suspect this has been the fate of pretty much every 5370 out there, which
could account for some of the phase slips and other anomalies people
sometimes observe in long-term tests.

-- john, KE5FX


> this was the recommended setup (by HP) for checking the internal
> noise. Feed
> the 10MHz output back to the input using a short cable, and set
> the  unit for
> "COMMON" input, setting 50 Ohm impedance etc.
>
> In the meantime I did some more tests, and found the following:
>
>1) The sine-wave output is crappy. The sine wave has some sort  of
> "Class-B" cross-over distortion, and it measures a whooping 200ps
> RMS jitter  on my
> Wavecrest jitter analyzer (>400ps pk-pk). Compare that to 2.7ps
> RMS  jitter I
> measure on our Fury 10MHz output. Definitely the crystal got damaged,  or
> something else.
>
> The unit has about 2x better jitter performance (around 50ps RMS)
> if I feed
> a clean Fury 10MHz into it. I think the 10811 OCXO or the
> internal driver
> circuit may have gotten damaged.
>
>2) As described earlier, with the Fury GPSDO driving the  unit's ref
> input, and very careful adjustment of the trigger level I can get
> RMS  readings
> <30ps with good time-intervall output. This is on a setup as  follows:
>
>REF-IN driven by Fury unit A 10 MHz output
>
>One input driven by second Fury unit B 10MHz output
>
>Second input driven by PRS10 GPSDO 10MHz output
>
>Unit set to measure +-Time Intervall
>
> I am happy with that result, except the trigger pot sensitivity,
> it's very
> hard to set correctly, and sometimes jumps to >60ps RMS by
> itself. I hope to
> be able to replace the 10811 - although feeding it externally is
> not a bad
> idea,  and hopefully get the full <30ps performance in "preset"
> mode after full
> calibration.
>
> Has anyone had similar problems?
>


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[SAIDJACK]

 
In a message dated 6/9/2007 13:16:12 Pacific Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>What's their batting average?  Do they recognize heavy  instruments
>and/or do anything special when they see  handles?



Hi Hmurray,
 
don't know. I always totally overpack the stuff I sell myself, and never  had 
a complaint since 1999. On the contrary, I've had a bunch of "Very Well  
Packed" feedbacks.
 
That's why I am even more upset, because I know it can be done easily it  
just takes 1/2 hour to do, and some sellers just don't  give a damn.  And in my 
opinion if you had over 1000 feedback's like this seller had then you  should 
know better...
 
bye,
Said



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[time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB Controller firmware update - version 4.60

[Prologix]

Hello all,

 

Firmware version 4.60 is now available at http://www.prologix.biz
 . 

Thanks to Gerry G, John M., and Didier J. for their help in testing this
version!

 

Rest of the website will be updated soon to better document the new, and
old, commands (I know, I know, been saying that for a while!). Meanwhile
feel free to email [EMAIL PROTECTED] with any questions.

 

Regards,

Abdul

 

 

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Dick, W1KSZ]

The answer is simple ...
Packing = $$$, right off the bottom line.

Since most, if not all electronics on e-Pay is sold
"as-is", the seller has no reason to be concerned with
the item arriving safely. Only his conscience, which,
sadly, in the case of most sellers is non-existent.

Don't blame the UPS Store, he only packs with the $$
the seller gives him.

73, Dick, W1KSZ

Hal Murray wrote:
>> Don't know why it's so difficult for folks to overpack. Worst case,
>> one  can  have it professionally packed at MailBoxes etc. or the like.
> 
> What's their batting average?  Do they recognize heavy instruments
> and/or do anything special when they see handles?
> 
> 
> 
> 

-- 
73, Dick, W1KSZ

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[SAIDJACK]

 
In a message dated 6/9/2007 12:14:16 Pacific Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:


>I've had other similar instances, where the feedback I gave (or  did not 
>give), was a result of possible  retaliation.





Hi David,
 
there are some things one can do:
 
* Do a mutual removal of feedback (but the point is to warn other buyers,  so 
this helps you but not future victims)
 
* Wait until  the seller leaves feedback. They should leave feedback  after 
you paid the item
 
* Get the sellers contact info, and call them. If they don't answer the  
phone, let Ebay know, Ebay will try calling them (on a long weekend etc when  
folks are out works best). If Ebay doesen't get through, they will remove  
their 
feedback from yours, but leave your feedback comment on theirs! Ebay  members 
have to be reachable by phone/voicemail at all times, otherwise your  account 
is considered delinquent.
 
I have not done this to anyone, but a seller used this nasty trick on me  
successfully. I had a negative from him, and he had nothing from me. Just  
because I did not answer my phone once, and had no voicemail service! I was not 
 
able to re-establish my feedback to him even after I contacted Ebay several  
times to fix it.
 
* Complain to Ebay, and/or our wonderfull little group here about the  seller.
 
Good luck,
bye,
Said
 
 



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[SAIDJACK]

 
In a message dated 6/9/2007 08:26:06 Pacific Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>Many  of us have 5370; can you describe exactly the setup
>you're using so we  can make apples-apples comparisons.
>What source, what cable, what  connectors, switch settings,
>int/ext ref,  etc.

>/tvb



Hi Tom,
 
this was the recommended setup (by HP) for checking the internal  noise. Feed 
the 10MHz output back to the input using a short cable, and set the  unit for 
"COMMON" input, setting 50 Ohm impedance etc.
 
In the meantime I did some more tests, and found the following:
 
   1) The sine-wave output is crappy. The sine wave has some sort  of 
"Class-B" cross-over distortion, and it measures a whooping 200ps RMS jitter  
on my 
Wavecrest jitter analyzer (>400ps pk-pk). Compare that to 2.7ps RMS  jitter I 
measure on our Fury 10MHz output. Definitely the crystal got damaged,  or 
something else.
 
The unit has about 2x better jitter performance (around 50ps RMS) if I feed  
a clean Fury 10MHz into it. I think the 10811 OCXO or the internal driver  
circuit may have gotten damaged.
 
   2) As described earlier, with the Fury GPSDO driving the  unit's ref 
input, and very careful adjustment of the trigger level I can get RMS  readings 
<30ps with good time-intervall output. This is on a setup as  follows:
 
   REF-IN driven by Fury unit A 10 MHz output
 
   One input driven by second Fury unit B 10MHz output
 
   Second input driven by PRS10 GPSDO 10MHz output
 
   Unit set to measure +-Time Intervall
 
I am happy with that result, except the trigger pot sensitivity, it's very  
hard to set correctly, and sometimes jumps to >60ps RMS by itself. I hope to  
be able to replace the 10811 - although feeding it externally is not a bad 
idea,  and hopefully get the full <30ps performance in "preset" mode after full 
 
calibration.
 
Has anyone had similar problems?
 
thanks,
bye,
Said



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Hal Murray]

> Don't know why it's so difficult for folks to overpack. Worst case,
> one  can  have it professionally packed at MailBoxes etc. or the like.

What's their batting average?  Do they recognize heavy instruments
and/or do anything special when they see handles?




-- 
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's.  I hate spam.




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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB hint

[John Miles]

I assume you just mean ++auto 0 followed by ++read, right?  There's no
++aread command in the 4.4 firmware.

-- john, KE5FX

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jack Hudler
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 12:46 PM
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB hint
>
>
> ++aread ... this issue (multiple devices talking) is what kept me from
> trying USB/GPIB.
>
> A previous post had,
> >Some GPIB instruments will complain if addressed to talk when
> they have not
> >been asked about anything.  The HP6626A Power Supply is my
> present instance
>
> I've got a half-dozen devices on the bus, and the behavior of ++auto 1 was
> an issue. While it's convenient for continous readings from a
> single device,
> it causes mass confusion with many. His new ++aread solves that
> issue. Just
> remember to adjust the timeout to suit the device and
> measurement. With this
> I can trigger multiple devices, then later go and collect the results.
>
> Just completed testing Abdul's latest, and all the basic
> functionality looks
> good, including SRQ and serial polls. He's been great to work
> with, upgrades
> are very easy to apply, and progress has been good.
>
> >From much past experience, bear in mind there will still be some glitches
> from a few odd devices, but that's the nature of the beast (especially HP
> reciprocal counters). Now moving on to high-speed data transfer from
> multiple devices, so I'll see how well things hold up.
>
> I'd be interested in hearing about any GPIB/Prologix issues or questions
> that I may be able to help with.
>
> Gerry K7ATS
>


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[SAIDJACK]

 
In a message dated 6/9/2007 05:20:19 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
writes:


>You may want to run it through the cal because there are a lot  of things 
>that can go wrong without providing obvious clues on these  counters.

>Didier


Hi John, Didier,
 
thanks for the feedback!
 
I got some updates: The RMS jitter goes down to 25 - 30ps if I don't use  
"Preset" but rather very carefully adjust the trigger level settings.

There is one position on the trigger pot that is extremely tight (maybe  1/5 
of a mm turn adjust on the pot!) where I get readings down to  <30ps.
 
With that, I can actually use the instrument in 1K average mode on TI and  
get readings that are meaningfull in the 10's of ps. Great! A lot better than 
my 
 53132A.
 
Seems I really do need to cal the unit carefully but I don't have the  
calibrator needed. I remember someone mentioning a gentlemen somewhere that  
specializes in calibrating this unit, does anyone here have his info? Does  
Agilent 
still cal the units?
 
Thanks,
bye,
Said



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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[SAIDJACK]

 
In a message dated 6/9/2007 04:59:13 Pacific Daylight Time,  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>Bubble wrap is ok for light little things, but not for heavy pieces  of test
>equipment.  They need carefully fitted dense foam, and  double boxing.

>-Chuck Harris



Hi Chuck,
 
on the HP stuff (5370B etc) it wouldn't take more than a minute to remove  
both handles to prevent what happened to my unit when using bubblewrap. But 
yes, 
 shipping heavy units is tough to do right. So far I've had:
 
A Tektronix scope and an Agilent scope shipped to me with less than 1 inch  
of simple "pellets" on all sides. The pellets were crushed of course, and both  
scope's protruded through the packaging when I got the disasters at my  door.
 
Same happened to a big scope we had sent to our work ($50K new, and they  
spent $5 on packaging). A total of four units damaged so far. And 
UPS/Fedex/USPS  
don't feel responsible due to incorrect packaging.

Don't know why it's so difficult for folks to overpack. Worst case, one  can 
have it professionally packed at MailBoxes etc. or the like.
 
bye,
Said
 



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Re: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB hint

[Jack Hudler]

++aread ... this issue (multiple devices talking) is what kept me from
trying USB/GPIB.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of GerryG
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 12:10 PM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB hint

A previous post had,
>Some GPIB instruments will complain if addressed to talk when they have not
>been asked about anything.  The HP6626A Power Supply is my present instance

I've got a half-dozen devices on the bus, and the behavior of ++auto 1 was
an issue. While it's convenient for continous readings from a single device,
it causes mass confusion with many. His new ++aread solves that issue. Just
remember to adjust the timeout to suit the device and measurement. With this
I can trigger multiple devices, then later go and collect the results.

Just completed testing Abdul's latest, and all the basic functionality looks
good, including SRQ and serial polls. He's been great to work with, upgrades
are very easy to apply, and progress has been good.

>From much past experience, bear in mind there will still be some glitches
from a few odd devices, but that's the nature of the beast (especially HP
reciprocal counters). Now moving on to high-speed data transfer from
multiple devices, so I'll see how well things hold up.

I'd be interested in hearing about any GPIB/Prologix issues or questions
that I may be able to help with.

Gerry K7ATS

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Norman J McSweyn]

Apropos the conversation:
Techrecovery sold me a 5370a that was toast. The customer service guy gave 
me a runaround for six weeks trying to first get another instrument and 
after I gave that up as a lost cause, then a refund.
I had to threaten to get MasterCard involved.
My MO is to give the feedback that is deserved. Screw my feedback rating. It 
hurts the seller more than the buyer.
Happy ebaying!
Norm n3ykf 


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Dr. David Kirkby]

John Miles wrote:
> I suppose the "Item as described" field could encompass packaging, but it
> seems too vague.  Ultimately, people (including myself) need to grow a pair
> and start leaving neutral/negative feedback for sellers who pack carelessly
> and/or deliver items that aren't the exact unit shown in the photos.
>
> -- john, KE5FX
>
>   
One (probably the main) problem with the feedback system is that if you 
ever sell, it is very dangerous to leave anyone negative, as they are 
very likely to retaliate and so reduce the selling price of items you sell.

I have one negative, which is a direct result of me giving the seller a 
negative, after he lied about his location (UK auction, in pounds, 
location as UK), but real location was the USA and ripped me off for 
postage - about 8 x what it cost him. Hence I am very reluctant to give 
a negative again.

More recently I bought a "new" 147 GB SCSI disk. It was shipped in a 
jiffy bag, so it it left in good order, it was almost certain to be 
damaged on arrival. Running a few utilities I found the disk had 47 days 
of use (hence not new), and had multiple bad sectors which were not 
present when it left the manufacturer - it had 1bout 600 when new, but 
had developed another 100 or so.

After some argument, the seller agreed to refund my money, but I said I 
wanted him to pay my costs (Paypal, postage etc). He then asks what sort 
of feedback would I leave if he refunded these. I agreed to leave no 
feedback. Truth is neutral might have been appropriate, with an 
explanation of the reasons, but I wanted my money back and I did not 
want a negative/neutral myself.

I've had other similar instances, where the feedback I gave (or did not 
give), was a result of possible retaliation.


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[John Miles]

> > It would be nice if I could grow a pair to leave the clueless or
> > those who leave it to the "UPS store" a negative feedback, but so
> > far I haven't. Yes, those who are clueless don't necessarily deserve
> > positive feedback. But they didn't set out to be evil.
> >
> > It thoroughly hurts my heart to see a fine delicate instrument damaged
> > through poor packing. I feel bad, but not about the deal or the seller,
> > but about the loss. Yeah, I know, I'm supposed to be thinking about
> > bottom dollar and business with E-bay, but it's hard.
>
> But the point is Tim, that was *your* thing they were treating
> poorly by careless packing.  Not theirs.
>

Exactly.  Their responsibility does NOT end when they hand it over to the
UPS Store.  It ends when the UPS guy drops it at my doorstep.

As a seller, you're responsible for the actions of your subcontractors.

-- john, KE5FX



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Re: [time-nuts] solar flares and cesium drift

[Jason Rabel]

The GPS data doesn't show any odd drifts:

http://tf.nist.gov/service/gpstrace.htm


Jason 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of michael taylor
Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 11:07 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] solar flares and cesium drift

On 6/8/07, tom jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   I'm assuming all the drift I'm observing is my cesium standard (5061)
and not loran or gps
>   especially because loran is steered by gps and gps is steered by
usno-amc.

Did you look at Timing RAIM (Receiver autonomous integrity monitoring)
data from this time period, to see if either your GPS receiver's
uncertainty increased, or an increase in drift of the SV cesium clocks
(compared to USNO) during the period in question?


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Chuck Harris]

Tim Shoppa wrote:
> "John Miles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I sent a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] asking them to please consider adding a
>> "Packaging" category to their new detailed seller ratings feature.  Everyone
>> here who uses eBay should do the same.  Point out that a seller could excel
>> in all of the existing categories but still wreck the item due to negligent
>> packing.
>>
>> I suppose the "Item as described" field could encompass packaging, but it
>> seems too vague.  Ultimately, people (including myself) need to grow a pair
>> and start leaving neutral/negative feedback for sellers who pack carelessly
>> and/or deliver items that aren't the exact unit shown in the photos.
> 
> In many cases the guys selling/shipping are clueless about packing
> but not with evil intentions. Sometimes they take it to their
> neighborhood "UPS Store" which does the negligent packing.
> 
> It would be nice if I could grow a pair to leave the clueless or
> those who leave it to the "UPS store" a negative feedback, but so
> far I haven't. Yes, those who are clueless don't necessarily deserve
> positive feedback. But they didn't set out to be evil.
> 
> It thoroughly hurts my heart to see a fine delicate instrument damaged
> through poor packing. I feel bad, but not about the deal or the seller,
> but about the loss. Yeah, I know, I'm supposed to be thinking about
> bottom dollar and business with E-bay, but it's hard.

But the point is Tim, that was *your* thing they were treating
poorly by careless packing.  Not theirs.

-Chuck

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Tim Shoppa]

"John Miles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I sent a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] asking them to please consider adding a
> "Packaging" category to their new detailed seller ratings feature.  Everyone
> here who uses eBay should do the same.  Point out that a seller could excel
> in all of the existing categories but still wreck the item due to negligent
> packing.
>
> I suppose the "Item as described" field could encompass packaging, but it
> seems too vague.  Ultimately, people (including myself) need to grow a pair
> and start leaving neutral/negative feedback for sellers who pack carelessly
> and/or deliver items that aren't the exact unit shown in the photos.

In many cases the guys selling/shipping are clueless about packing
but not with evil intentions. Sometimes they take it to their
neighborhood "UPS Store" which does the negligent packing.

It would be nice if I could grow a pair to leave the clueless or
those who leave it to the "UPS store" a negative feedback, but so
far I haven't. Yes, those who are clueless don't necessarily deserve
positive feedback. But they didn't set out to be evil.

It thoroughly hurts my heart to see a fine delicate instrument damaged
through poor packing. I feel bad, but not about the deal or the seller,
but about the loss. Yeah, I know, I'm supposed to be thinking about
bottom dollar and business with E-bay, but it's hard.

Tim.

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[John Miles]

I sent a message to [EMAIL PROTECTED] asking them to please consider adding a
"Packaging" category to their new detailed seller ratings feature.  Everyone
here who uses eBay should do the same.  Point out that a seller could excel
in all of the existing categories but still wreck the item due to negligent
packing.

I suppose the "Item as described" field could encompass packaging, but it
seems too vague.  Ultimately, people (including myself) need to grow a pair
and start leaving neutral/negative feedback for sellers who pack carelessly
and/or deliver items that aren't the exact unit shown in the photos.

-- john, KE5FX


> Yeah, I once had a huge switch (8U-10U I think, very heavy item) that some
> guy threw in a thin cardboard box using only foam peanuts and those small
> foam packs. The box was coming apart at the seams leaking peanuts as the
> driver carried it to the door. The little foam packs were smashed flat,
> totally worthless because of the weight & loose packing. What a nightmare
> that was! It looked like someone took a baseball bat to the thing and went
> psycho. It's so sad people will sell thousand dollar pieces of
> equipment and
> not spend a penny on proper packing.
>
>


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Re: [time-nuts] A Prologix GPIB-USB hint

[John Miles]

I've also updated my Win32 configurator applet for this command (see
PROLOGIX.EXE in www.ke5fx.com/gpib/setup.exe).  When you turn "Auto read
after write" off, the "Manual read" button and its associated timeout field
become available.  Should be handy for debugging or rehearsing what you want
your code to do.

-- john, KE5FX

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Prologix
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:10 AM
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A Prologix GPIB-USB hint
>
>
>
> Thank you Paul for the hint! We shall add that to the help doc.
>
> The upgrade that Didier mentioned will be ready for public
> release very soon
> and will be posted on prologix.biz.
>
> Regards,
> Abdul
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Didier Juges
> Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:02 AM
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A Prologix GPIB-USB hint
>
> Poul,
>
> This has been fixed in the most recent release.
>


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[time-nuts] Prologix GPIB-USB hint

[GerryG]

A previous post had,
>Some GPIB instruments will complain if addressed to talk when they have not
>been asked about anything.  The HP6626A Power Supply is my present instance

I've got a half-dozen devices on the bus, and the behavior of ++auto 1 was
an issue. While it's convenient for continous readings from a single device,
it causes mass confusion with many. His new ++aread solves that issue. Just
remember to adjust the timeout to suit the device and measurement. With this
I can trigger multiple devices, then later go and collect the results.

Just completed testing Abdul's latest, and all the basic functionality looks
good, including SRQ and serial polls. He's been great to work with, upgrades
are very easy to apply, and progress has been good.

>From much past experience, bear in mind there will still be some glitches
from a few odd devices, but that's the nature of the beast (especially HP
reciprocal counters). Now moving on to high-speed data transfer from
multiple devices, so I'll see how well things hold up.

I'd be interested in hearing about any GPIB/Prologix issues or questions
that I may be able to help with.

Gerry K7ATS

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Re: [time-nuts] Connection Info Wiltron 610C-MS-1042 Xtal Oscillator?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Rex:

Yes, although I was hoping for a precision oscillator.  There are crystals at 
1, 10, 50 and 100 MHz each with a trimmer cap.
20 Volts negative ground for power and NPN transistors. So far I haven't 
figured out the ground or the interconnection of all the solder posts.  Maybe 
some type of grounding on the outputs.

Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.precisionclock.com


Rex wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:21:54 -0700, Brooke Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Hi:
>>
>>Looking for connection and any other information about this oscillator.
>>Has one coax cable w/BNC and 6 solder terminals.
>>Inside looks like 1960s solid state parts.  Two printed circuit boards each 
>>with two crystals.
>>
>>The Wiltron 610 series is an analog type microwave sweeper.
>>I'm attaching a very small photo of the oscillator.
> 
> 
> I have a 610D sweeper here somewhere with a couple of plug-ins. No time
> to look now and I'll be away for a couple days. If you don't get better
> info before that, I may be able to dig more info. Got some docs here but
> they may be on microfische -- yuck.
> 
> Nice basic sweeper for microwave bands with appropriate plug-ins. As I
> recall, there was nothing frequency accurate in it. I think there was an
> option in the mainframe for a crystal source to generate marker
> multiples. This may be similar to what you have. My recollection is it
> was low freq, maybe 1 or 5 MHz, and very low quality
> stability/accuracy-wise. Just a ballpark reference to generate marker
> blips.
> 
> -Rex
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Connection Info Wiltron 610C-MS-1042 Xtal Oscillator?

[Had]

Brooke,

If you have not, you might try the fairly new Wiltron/Yahoo users group.

Had


At 12:21 AM 6/9/2007, you wrote:
>Hi:
>
>Looking for connection and any other information about this oscillator.
>Has one coax cable w/BNC and 6 solder terminals.
>Inside looks like 1960s solid state parts.  Two printed circuit 
>boards each with two crystals.
>
>The Wiltron 610 series is an analog type microwave sweeper.
>I'm attaching a very small photo of the oscillator.
>
>--
>Have Fun,
>
>Brooke Clarke
>http://www.PRC68.com
>http://www.precisionclock.com
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup, 5370

[Tom Van Baak]

> I got my unit today, and the left handle is almost broken off. He didn't  use 
> bubblewrap :( If you guys order from him, make sure to require him to use  
> 1.5 - 2 inches of bubblewrap all around the unit.
> 
> The standard deviation of a 15ns cable-delayed signal is measured as 50ps  in 
> 100 averages.
> 
> Is that a good number for these units? I was expecting <20ps.

Said,

Many of us have 5370; can you describe exactly the setup
you're using so we can make apples-apples comparisons.
What source, what cable, what connectors, switch settings,
int/ext ref, etc.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Jason Rabel]

Yeah, I once had a huge switch (8U-10U I think, very heavy item) that some
guy threw in a thin cardboard box using only foam peanuts and those small
foam packs. The box was coming apart at the seams leaking peanuts as the
driver carried it to the door. The little foam packs were smashed flat,
totally worthless because of the weight & loose packing. What a nightmare
that was! It looked like someone took a baseball bat to the thing and went
psycho. It's so sad people will sell thousand dollar pieces of equipment and
not spend a penny on proper packing.

On the other hand, one person from eBay I bought a couple items from
"surplussupplyal", holy cow they rock! I bought a couple time displays and
paid only like $10 for UPS ground shipping (that had to be at-cost for just
shipping). They came in heavy duty oversized cardboard boxes and were packed
tight in that expanding foam! Complete overkill for such a small item, you
could literally of dropped them off a second floor building and I bet they
would have been okay.

Jason


> I'd be careful what you wish for!  I had a lambda power supply shipped,
and
> the guy wrapped it in at least 2 inches of bubble wrap, and both rack
handles
> were completely broken off in shipping.  Sharp corners, and protrusions
pop
> bubble wrap, and leave the sharp corners and protrusions unprotected.
> 
> Bubble wrap is ok for light little things, but not for heavy pieces of
test
> equipment.  They need carefully fitted dense foam, and double boxing.
> 
> -Chuck Harris


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Re: [time-nuts] Galileo funding (bailout)

[Jason Rabel]

So true, so true.

It's funny seeing some GOES receivers & antennas still being listed on eBay
for hundreds of dollars when they have no signal to receive.

Something I've always wondered about the ACTS system, is there any public
code so that a person could run their own local ACTS server?

I don't know if you follow the NTP newsgroup, but if one guy over there had
his way, your quartz, cesium, and rubidium clocks would also be obsolete as
he wants to change the length of a second... lol. ;)

As for surplus from the Galileo project, I don't think we will see
anything... Perhaps the single Satellite will go up for auction on eBay so
they can recover a little bit of their costs from this boondoggle...
*snicker*


> An interesting feature of surplus timing gear is that while quartz,
> cesium, and rubidium clocks still count seconds when they are
> surplused, time transfer systems such as those based on Omega,
> Loran-C, GOES, WWV, CHU, WWVB, ACTS, NTP, GPS,
> GLONASS, and Galileo are only useful when the complex and
> expensive transmitting infrastructure behind them is still operational.
> 
> Earlier forms of Loran are gone. Omega is gone. I watched the
> last bits as GOES died a few years ago and now all the GOES
> receivers in my collection are effectively silent. I suspect, over
> the decades, as budgets and technology changes, that the same
> will eventually occur to all timing systems that we know today.
> 
> /tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] A Prologix GPIB-USB hint

[Prologix]

Thank you Paul for the hint! We shall add that to the help doc.

The upgrade that Didier mentioned will be ready for public release very soon
and will be posted on prologix.biz.

Regards,
Abdul

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Didier Juges
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 8:02 AM
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] A Prologix GPIB-USB hint

Poul,

This has been fixed in the most recent release. Abdul added a ++read command
that gets a single reading and then turns TALK off the instrument.

I have not actually tried it, but I have received it from Abdul a week or 2
ago.

The firmware isd easy to upgrade.

Give him a call.

Didier 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 9:32 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [time-nuts] A Prologix GPIB-USB hint


I spent the better part of an afternoon trying to figure this bit out, so to
save somebody else the time:

Some GPIB instruments will complain if addressed to talk when they have not
been asked about anything.  The HP6626A Power Supply is my present instance.

The Prologix GPIB-USB has the "++auto" command which controls if it should
automatically go into listen after a talk, the description on the manual
page is:

Enable (1) or disable (0) "listen-after-talk" feature

Based on that description, one would, or at least I would, expect the
behaviour to be that nothing happens until the next write, so that this
would work:

++auto 0
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
idle bus
++auto 1
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
device= talk
read something


But that is not the case.  "++auto 1" puts the device in talk mode
immediately, so the sequence needs to be:


++auto 0
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
idle bus
++auto 1
device= talk
read something

You've been warned :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/842 - Release Date: 6/9/2007
10:46 AM



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Re: [time-nuts] A Prologix GPIB-USB hint

[Didier Juges]

Poul,

This has been fixed in the most recent release. Abdul added a ++read command
that gets a single reading and then turns TALK off the instrument.

I have not actually tried it, but I have received it from Abdul a week or 2
ago.

The firmware isd easy to upgrade.

Give him a call.

Didier 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 9:32 AM
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [time-nuts] A Prologix GPIB-USB hint


I spent the better part of an afternoon trying to figure this bit out, so to
save somebody else the time:

Some GPIB instruments will complain if addressed to talk when they have not
been asked about anything.  The HP6626A Power Supply is my present instance.

The Prologix GPIB-USB has the "++auto" command which controls if it should
automatically go into listen after a talk, the description on the manual
page is:

Enable (1) or disable (0) "listen-after-talk" feature

Based on that description, one would, or at least I would, expect the
behaviour to be that nothing happens until the next write, so that this
would work:

++auto 0
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
idle bus
++auto 1
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
device= talk
read something


But that is not the case.  "++auto 1" puts the device in talk mode
immediately, so the sequence needs to be:


++auto 0
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
idle bus
++auto 1
device= talk
read something

You've been warned :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.13/842 - Release Date: 6/9/2007
10:46 AM



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Re: [time-nuts] Galileo funding (bailout)

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Jack Hudler" writes:

>I was referring to the test-equipment they accumulated.

The only people who have actually done any real hardware related
work are all private companies or universities, they have not
bought the entire Agilent catalogue just for this and they're not
going to let go of any of it any time soon.

The main source of used T&M kit in the USA is military.  There is
nothing even closely as wasteful as that in .EU.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Galileo funding (bailout)

[Jack Hudler]

I was referring to the test-equipment they accumulated.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: Saturday, June 09, 2007 1:18 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Galileo funding (bailout)

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Jack Hudler" writes:

>On the positive side: there could be some very nice stuff on the surplus
>market post-mortem.

Unlikely, they havn't built more than a few handfuls of prototypes.

Poul-Henning

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956
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[time-nuts] A Prologix GPIB-USB hint

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

I spent the better part of an afternoon trying to figure this bit out,
so to save somebody else the time:

Some GPIB instruments will complain if addressed to talk when they
have not been asked about anything.  The HP6626A Power Supply is
my present instance.

The Prologix GPIB-USB has the "++auto" command which controls if
it should automatically go into listen after a talk, the description
on the manual page is:

Enable (1) or disable (0) "listen-after-talk" feature

Based on that description, one would, or at least I would, expect
the behaviour to be that nothing happens until the next write,
so that this would work:

++auto 0
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
idle bus
++auto 1
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
device= talk
read something


But that is not the case.  "++auto 1" puts the device in talk
mode immediately, so the sequence needs to be:


++auto 0
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
idle bus
write something
device= listen
send data
idle bus
++auto 1
device= talk
read something

You've been warned :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Didier Juges]

Hi Said,

Good! But upsetting when sellers do not do their due diligence to 
properly pack and therefore damage equipment that would have been just 
fine. I was very upset, and at the end very lucky when I bought my 
8657B, which was shipped bare in a large box with what must have been 
not more than a dozen peanuts thrown in. The beautiful instrument was 
damaged, but luckily it was easily fixed. It could have been MUCH worse.

I think the single shot *resolution* of the TIC is 20pS, but in my 
experience the jitter is quite a bit more. So I think 50 pS STDEV with 
only 100 averages is in the ballpark.  Both of mine (5370A) are out of 
commission at the moment because of either poor sockets or tin whiskers, 
maybe both. For both units, I can take the chips out of the sockets and 
put them back in, and the instruments will work for a while, then they 
will loose their brains again. I have planned to replace the sockets, 
but have not come around to it yet. I use the 5334B in the mean time.

You may want to run it through the cal because there are a lot of things 
that can go wrong without providing obvious clues on these counters.

Didier

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  
> In a message dated 6/8/2007 18:43:32 Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>  
> writes:
>
>   
>> Well, his listing includes the serial number. He would not use the  same 
>> listing without at least updating the  S/N?
>> 
>
>   
>> Didier
>> 
>
>
>
> Hi Didier, I just got an email from him, he changed the picks today after I  
> asked him about it. The original listings didn't include the SN's.
>  
> I got my unit today, and the left handle is almost broken off. He didn't  use 
> bubblewrap :( If you guys order from him, make sure to require him to use  
> 1.5 - 2 inches of bubblewrap all around the unit.
>  
> The standard deviation of a 15ns cable-delayed signal is measured as 50ps  in 
> 100 averages.
>  
> Is that a good number for these units? I was expecting <20ps.
>  
> The frequency is in error of parts to the E-09 with an external 10MHz Cs  
> reference.
>  
> Maybe the unit just needs to be calibrated? Maybe it got shipping  damage?
>  
> bye,
> Said
>
>
>
> ** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.
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>   

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[Chuck Harris]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  
> In a message dated 6/8/2007 19:08:28 Pacific Daylight Time,  
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> 
>> bought a 5370B from this seller a few weeks ago.  I received  it ~ one week
>> after payment.  Other than very poor packaging, the  transaction was fine.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, the guy did the same to me! He seems to be a nice guy though, changed  
> his listing today since I complained, I am sure it would help if you too 
> would  
> sent him an email about the insufficient packaging on these $25K new  units...
>  
> Bubblewrap for $5 per unit would do the trick.
>  
> bye,
> Said

I'd be careful what you wish for!  I had a lambda power supply shipped, and
the guy wrapped it in at least 2 inches of bubble wrap, and both rack handles
were completely broken off in shipping.  Sharp corners, and protrusions pop
bubble wrap, and leave the sharp corners and protrusions unprotected.

Bubble wrap is ok for light little things, but not for heavy pieces of test
equipment.  They need carefully fitted dense foam, and double boxing.

-Chuck Harris

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Re: [time-nuts] another Ebay mixup

[John Ackermann N8UR]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] said the following on 06/09/2007 02:06 AM:

> The standard deviation of a 15ns cable-delayed signal is measured as 50ps  in 
> 100 averages.
>  
> Is that a good number for these units? I was expecting <20ps.

When I do cable measurements, I normally see around 35 to 40 ps over 1
to 100 k measurements (I usually test at 1000pps to speed things up a
bit).  So, I'd say that your numbers may be a little bit high, but not
totally out of whack.

John

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Re: [time-nuts] solar flares and cesium drift

[Alan Melia]

Hi all, it seems this one is sorted out now, though i am not sure what the
final decision wasI guess you thought it was was Loran chain drift.
For reference this site at Colorado Univ plots the index Dst which is a
measure of the disturbance to the geomagnetic field by electrons/ions
trapped in the Equatorial Ring Current. You can see the 5th was quiet
compared with the 6th, but even then the variations are miniscule +/- 20nT
in around 50,000nT a severe storm will give a shift of around -400nT
http://lasp.colorado.edu/space_weather/dsttemerin/dsttemerin.html
Geomagnetic events usually lag associated flares by 48 to 56 hours.

Cheers de Alan G3NYK

- Original Message -
From: tom jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: 09 June 2007 01:53
Subject: [time-nuts] solar flares and cesium drift


>
>   I dont know about the cesium, but I can advise that in my opinion there
have
> not been any major geomagnetic storms in the past few days. In fact
nothing
> different to what has been happening for most of the last month. If
anything
> it is relatively quiet. Solar flares do not produce an magnetic effect,
they
> are purely radiation. What often happens is the emission of an associated
> CME and the currently active area #960 was right on the limb of the
visible
> disc when the flares occured so any CME missed us. I supose it is possible
> that the radiation has affected the accuracy of GPS as received after
> passing through the ionosphere, but surely this would have been corrected
> very quickly?
>
> Cheers de Alan G3NYK
>
>
>   Hi Alan
>
>   What I was looking at was the xray events this past week from sunspot
#960 There has been about 40 medium size xray events and I assumed that
geomagnetic events went hand in hand with xray events and thought it was an
explanation for my cesium/loran drift.
>
>
>I was wondering what specific dates you had this observation? I'd like
to
> compare that data, against some of the data I have.
>
> Raimond Melkers
>
> Hey Raimond here is my data please sent yours if possible.
>
>   From 17:26pdt on  6-04-07
>   To 07:20pdt on  6-05-07 I lost 40 to 50ns  and continuing
>   To 21:38pdt on  6-05-07 I lost another 10ns to 20ns and continuing
>   To 05:23pdt on  6-06-07 I lost another 100ns to 110ns (strong
winds ) continuing
>   To 06:13pdt on  6-07-07 I lost another 50ns  and continuing
>   To 17:45pdt on  6-08-07 I gained 90ns  could today gain be a
gps correction?
>
> Happy Time keeping:
>Tom
>
>
>
>   My orignal posting:
>
>   We've had several solar flares this past week.  My cesium standard has
lost about 200ns as compared with fallon loran and gps.
>   I was showing approximately 10 to 30 nanoseconds cesium drift  the
previous weeks when
>   solar activity was quiet.
>   I'm assuming all the drift I'm observing is my cesium standard (5061)
and not loran or gps
>   especially because loran is steered by gps and gps is steered by
usno-amc.
>
>   Has anyone else noticed any extra cesium drift this week?
>   I'm assuming this drift is due to changes in the earth geomagnetic field
due to solar activity?
>
>
>
>
> -
> Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.
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Re: [time-nuts] Galileo funding (bailout)

[Magnus Danielson]

From: "Rob Kimberley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Galileo funding (bailout)
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2007 08:50:21 +0100
Message-ID: 

> Right from the first announcement of a PPP (Public Private Partnership) to
> fund this project, I queried the wisdom against a freely available GPS
> system. I was ridiculed by quite a lot of people about my "negativity". 
> 
> We will wait and see

I think that maybe they have learned that for some projects PPP will not work.
When you build a road you have the toll stations, so there the PPP buissness
model can work. For a broadcasting system it is much more difficult. For TV
systems such as DVB-T each channel is encrypted and on the same carrier several
channels with different keys exist. That works since the information noise of
within each channel is so large that cracking the keys is fairly hard.
A navigation system is much more quiet with new information. It has a very
stable information infrastructure which causes most encryption schemes to be
transparent over time. This is what Shannon taught us. The cracking of GLONASS
military code, GEODE A signal and GPS code-less L1/L2 P-tracking prooves my
point.

A fully public funding of Galileo is the only way to go, and that has been
clear from the start. The civil use must be free and not encumbered by a
licence. There are services for which they can make some money, but that would
still be small change on the operational budget. The real issue is weither they
can agree on committing themselfs to a full Public fundning solution.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Connection Info Wiltron 610C-MS-1042 Xtal Oscillator?

[Rex]

On Sat, 09 Jun 2007 00:21:54 -0700, Brooke Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>Hi:
>
>Looking for connection and any other information about this oscillator.
>Has one coax cable w/BNC and 6 solder terminals.
>Inside looks like 1960s solid state parts.  Two printed circuit boards each 
>with two crystals.
>
>The Wiltron 610 series is an analog type microwave sweeper.
>I'm attaching a very small photo of the oscillator.

I have a 610D sweeper here somewhere with a couple of plug-ins. No time
to look now and I'll be away for a couple days. If you don't get better
info before that, I may be able to dig more info. Got some docs here but
they may be on microfische -- yuck.

Nice basic sweeper for microwave bands with appropriate plug-ins. As I
recall, there was nothing frequency accurate in it. I think there was an
option in the mainframe for a crystal source to generate marker
multiples. This may be similar to what you have. My recollection is it
was low freq, maybe 1 or 5 MHz, and very low quality
stability/accuracy-wise. Just a ballpark reference to generate marker
blips.

-Rex


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Re: [time-nuts] Galileo funding (bailout)

[Rob Kimberley]

Right from the first announcement of a PPP (Public Private Partnership) to
fund this project, I queried the wisdom against a freely available GPS
system. I was ridiculed by quite a lot of people about my "negativity". 

We will wait and see

Rob K 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Poul-Henning Kamp
Sent: 09 June 2007 07:16
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Galileo funding (bailout)

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "Jason Rabel" writes:

>It's sad, but I foresee only the slow and painful death of the Galileo 
>project.

Some of us have seen that ever since the "users will happily pay 60% of the
budget" theory was first launched.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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[time-nuts] Connection Info Wiltron 610C-MS-1042 Xtal Oscillator?

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi:

Looking for connection and any other information about this oscillator.
Has one coax cable w/BNC and 6 solder terminals.
Inside looks like 1960s solid state parts.  Two printed circuit boards each 
with two crystals.


The Wiltron 610 series is an analog type microwave sweeper.
I'm attaching a very small photo of the oscillator.

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.precisionclock.com
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