Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
The shaking table, or base plate, is not a non-moving mass, but is the coupling factor which transfers the energy from the sum of all the other moving masses from the strongest to the weaker. Another example of majority rule, if you will. Remove the resonance frequency of this coupling factor far enough from the frequency of the driving sources, e.g. by adding mass, will reduce the coupling and will reduce lock-up, although not totally eliminate it. Think of this as adding a low-pass filter between the driving and driven units. Acoustics Engineers and Loudspeaker Designers are familiar with this, as sound sources are frequently located close together and may interfere with each other. Add enough mass to the coupling factor ( walls, floors, ceiling, or speaker cabinet) to lower the resonant frequency (or frequencies) is a known cure. -- Flemming Larsen On Sep 13, 2013, at 20:47, Bob Stewart b...@evoria.net wrote: And, in fact, the mass of the shake table has a big impact on the lock time, as does the mass of everything else besides the mass of the pendulum weights. Would there be a natural resonant frequency of the non-moving masses (shake table etc) that could prevent lockup? Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
On 09/14/2013 04:37 AM, David McGaw wrote: Not true. It depends on the strength and reciprocity of the coupling. If essentially equal as with the metronomes which are coupled pendulums (the math exists for this), the systems will come to some combination frequency, though as has been mentioned in a many-oscillator system there may be multiple solutions. The TV oscillator example is different as the driving source is not influenced by the locked oscillator. Now, can we lock multiple atomic oscillators together into a super-accurate ensemble? No. You do not accuracy that way. In order to achieve accuracy you need to show that systematic errors distributes systematically around the accurate value. However, several shifts offsets away in ways which doesn't help. You can achieve stability, but by keeping clocks sufficiently isolated, you can alter their weight as they perform and those performing badly will be given less weight and the ensemble performs better. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Coupled oscillators can do very interesting things above and beyond simple synchronization. Look at the circuit at the bottom of this page with 5 cross-connected neon bulb multivibrators. http://donklipstein.com/sillyne2.html They are symmetrically cross connected favoring no particular direction. After powering up, they flash in a disorganized manner for a little bit, but then usually settle down into either a left-to-right or right-to-left sequence. I think this is spontaneous symmetry breaking. They don't always settle down quickly. I have observed some other cycles at power-up that are more complex, and can run for many seconds before they go into the simple sequence. Tim. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Hi Yes, the settling in is fractal and the path taken to sync isn't the same every time. For a simple way to look at multiple coupled clocks go back to old style filter theory: 1) You have some number of resonators 2) You have some set of coupling coefficients between the resonators 3) You get a multi way transfer function between them 4) The Q of the resonators is very high (Infinite Q) 5) The coupling is small, but maybe not small compared to the infinite Q. All you need for an oscillator is a net zero phase around the loop and gain. If you have multiple phase zeros (think of a complex filter) then there are multiple solution frequencies. The ones that will work are the ones with gain. Something like a metronome has trouble running at several frequencies at once, so it picks one. The system also can have too little coupling (not enough gain) to sync and things just run off on their own. Yes the analogy to filters isn't perfect. There are more accurate ways to look at it. Bob On Sep 14, 2013, at 8:32 AM, Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com wrote: Coupled oscillators can do very interesting things above and beyond simple synchronization. Look at the circuit at the bottom of this page with 5 cross-connected neon bulb multivibrators. http://donklipstein.com/sillyne2.html They are symmetrically cross connected favoring no particular direction. After powering up, they flash in a disorganized manner for a little bit, but then usually settle down into either a left-to-right or right-to-left sequence. I think this is spontaneous symmetry breaking. They don't always settle down quickly. I have observed some other cycles at power-up that are more complex, and can run for many seconds before they go into the simple sequence. Tim. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
The math I am familiar with, seems to have mostly developed around master-slave arrangements associated with radar pulses and (as you point out) TV. In the MIT Rad Lab series there are some single-purpose treatments but a good summary is Millman Taub, Pulse and Digital Circuits. Their approach is largely graphical but in several cases (especially relaxation oscillator coupled to a pulse or sine-wave circuit) they have analytic results. They also treat sine wave oscillators, getting all the way to phase detectors driving integrators driving reactance tubes (I think we would call this a true PLL today). The relaxation oscillators with single polarity sync pulse driving the active device into conduction early, yes, you can only speed them up. But if you look at the Millman and Taub math you can also see that a sync pulse of the other polarity can actually slow them down. But I don't think the relaxation oscillator treatment describes the metronome. They get one (or two?) kicks a cycle from the spring mechanism, but the strength of the kick does not set their period, the harmonic oscillator (sine wave) pendulum behavior dominates their period, and I think (since the table sways both left and right) they can be slowed down or sped up through coupling Tim. On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 10:13 PM, Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net wrote: Maybe not. We need the math that describes the phenomenon, but it won't come from me. Consider the way that television sync pulses synchronized the sweep oscillators. The pulse has to get there before the oscillator cycles on its own. Similarly, the movement of the common base has to occur before a metronome clicks by itself. The devices synchronize to the fastest metronome, or they can't all synchronize. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: David McGaw Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:11 PM Compromise. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
A frame-by-frame analysis of the metronome video could show the frequency
and phase of each of the 32 metronomes as a function of time.
Is there a non-youtube version of the video using a well-characterized
video format? I'm not sure I would trust the youtube video codecs to keep
time correctly, music videos there have horrible lip-sync problems (putting
on my AV Club hat).
Tim.
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Fellow time-nuts,
This little nice example of clocks interlocking just passed by my
web-browser:
o9.com/5947112/watch-32-discordant-metronomes-achieve-synchrony-in-a-matter-of-minutes?action_type_map={
10153226568265094:og.likes}fb_action_types=og.likesfb_source=other_multilineaction_object_map={10153226568265094:159320750875948}action_ref_map=fb_action_ids=10153226568265094
It shows 32 metronoms that interlocks.
Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Hi
Google Orbital Resonance. The same process works for *very* large systems,
and you can lock at interesting ratios like 2:3 or 1:2:4 in addition to 1:1.
Bob
On Sep 14, 2013, at 9:34 AM, Tim Shoppa tsho...@gmail.com wrote:
A frame-by-frame analysis of the metronome video could show the frequency
and phase of each of the 32 metronomes as a function of time.
Is there a non-youtube version of the video using a well-characterized
video format? I'm not sure I would trust the youtube video codecs to keep
time correctly, music videos there have horrible lip-sync problems (putting
on my AV Club hat).
Tim.
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Fellow time-nuts,
This little nice example of clocks interlocking just passed by my
web-browser:
o9.com/5947112/watch-32-discordant-metronomes-achieve-synchrony-in-a-matter-of-minutes?action_type_map={
10153226568265094:og.likes}fb_action_types=og.likesfb_source=other_multilineaction_object_map={10153226568265094:159320750875948}action_ref_map=fb_action_ids=10153226568265094
It shows 32 metronoms that interlocks.
Cheers,
Magnus
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Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
A frame-by-frame analysis of the metronome video could show the frequency and phase of each of the 32 metronomes as a function of time. Is there a non-youtube version of the video using a well-characterized video format? I'm not sure I would trust the youtube video codecs to keep time correctly, music videos there have horrible lip-sync problems (putting on my AV Club hat). Tim. === You could use a program such as: http://www.youtubedownloaderhd.com/ to convert to e.g. MP4 format. That may help... Cheers, David -- SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements Web: http://www.satsignal.eu Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
On 9/14/13 6:20 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: The math I am familiar with, seems to have mostly developed around master-slave arrangements associated with radar pulses and (as you point out) TV. In the MIT Rad Lab series there are some single-purpose treatments but a good summary is Millman Taub, Pulse and Digital Circuits. Their approach is largely graphical but in several cases (especially relaxation oscillator coupled to a pulse or sine-wave circuit) they have analytic results. They also treat sine wave oscillators, getting all the way to phase detectors driving integrators driving reactance tubes (I think we would call this a true PLL today). There's a whole literature and books on coupled oscillator arrays. They've been proposed (and prototypes built) for things like beam steering. You have an array of VCOs that are coupled, and you put a bias on the VCOs at the edge, and the rest of the array nicely fills in the middle. Take a look for papers by York (at UCSB) and Pogorzelski (recently retired from JPL) The book is coupled oscillator based array antennas http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/Monograph/series11/CoupledOsc_20110804.pdf Chapter by chapter at http://descanso.jpl.nasa.gov/Monograph/series11_chapter.cfm?force_external=0 All the coupled oscillator math is in there. I'm pretty sure Pogo has matlab codes to simulate it if you were to ask. p...@ieee.org ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Microwave injection locking of Magnetrons with beam steering phased array. Lots of math! http://www.google.com/url?sa=trct=jq=esrc=ssource=webcd=4ved=0CDkQFjADurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.iee.or.jp%2Fver2%2Fhonbu%2F14-magazine%2Flog%2F2008%2F2008pdf-b%2F2008_09b_06.pdfei=vKY0UqywHIzs9ASOoYDAAQusg=AFQjCNGa_vBahvbPfxqNR8KzQ7RDzJV4tAbvm=bv.52164340,d.eWU Back in the day, Microwave Associates manufactured a pretty nifty GUNN diode based FM microwave link for video cameras that operated in the 12-13 GHz band. The transmitter GUNN oscillator was pumped from a crystal controlled multiplier chain. At the reciver, an AFC derived from the discriminator kept the link stable. Interestingly to time-nutters, since it was FM system, you could insert a reference at the TX video input and extract it at the RX without any noticible error. For giggles I connected a G5RV antenna to a TX and a shortwave RX to the TR and could tune the SW band faithfully. -- Joe Leikhim Leikhim and Associates Communications Consultants Oviedo, Florida jleik...@leikhim.com 407-982-0446 WWW.LEIKHIM.COM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
On 9/14/13 11:22 AM, Joe Leikhim wrote: Microwave injection locking of Magnetrons with beam steering phased array. Lots of math! http://www.google.com/url?sa=trct=jq=esrc=ssource=webcd=4ved=0CDkQFjADurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.iee.or.jp%2Fver2%2Fhonbu%2F14-magazine%2Flog%2F2008%2F2008pdf-b%2F2008_09b_06.pdfei=vKY0UqywHIzs9ASOoYDAAQusg=AFQjCNGa_vBahvbPfxqNR8KzQ7RDzJV4tAbvm=bv.52164340,d.eWU I prefer the array of 2.45 GHz magnetrons in the weed burner. http://typnet.net/Articles/WeedKiller.pdf Vidmar, 2005, in Microwave Journal By the way, googling microwave weed burner to find this article turned up another application of microwave heating for a very different kind of weed. I keep waiting to see something like this show up at the science fair, driven by an Arduino that recognizes the weeds and turns the microwaves on and off. Back in the day, Microwave Associates manufactured a pretty nifty GUNN diode based FM microwave link for video cameras that operated in the 12-13 GHz band. The transmitter GUNN oscillator was pumped from a crystal controlled multiplier chain. At the reciver, an AFC derived from the discriminator kept the link stable. the famous gunnplexer also available in the 10.5 and 24 GHz bands. Crummy phase noise, so you're not going to be doing 1 bit per second, but makes sending video using FM pretty darn easy. Interestingly to time-nutters, since it was FM system, you could insert a reference at the TX video input and extract it at the RX without any noticible error. For giggles I connected a G5RV antenna to a TX and a shortwave RX to the TR and could tune the SW band faithfully. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Funny when I go to the links and read about the subject, time seems to slowww down By the way, googling microwave weed burner to find this article turned up another application of microwave heating for a very different kind of weed. -- Joe Leikhim Leikhim and Associates Communications Consultants Oviedo, Florida jleik...@leikhim.com 407-982-0446 WWW.LEIKHIM.COM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
On 9/14/13 5:19 PM, Joe Leikhim wrote: Funny when I go to the links and read about the subject, time seems to slowww down By the way, googling microwave weed burner to find this article turned up another application of microwave heating for a very different kind of weed. Oh wow.. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Fellow time-nuts,
This little nice example of clocks interlocking just passed by my
web-browser:
o9.com/5947112/watch-32-discordant-metronomes-achieve-synchrony-in-a-matter-of-minutes?action_type_map={10153226568265094:og.likes}fb_action_types=og.likesfb_source=other_multilineaction_object_map={10153226568265094:159320750875948}action_ref_map=fb_action_ids=10153226568265094
It shows 32 metronoms that interlocks.
Cheers,
Magnus
___
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Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
It says o9.com is a domain for sale?
From: Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 12:32 PM
Subject: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Fellow time-nuts,
This little nice example of clocks interlocking just passed by my
web-browser:
o9.com/5947112/watch-32-discordant-metronomes-achieve-synchrony-in-a-matter-of-minutes?action_type_map={10153226568265094:og.likes}fb_action_types=og.likesfb_source=other_multilineaction_object_map={10153226568265094:159320750875948}action_ref_map=fb_action_ids=10153226568265094
It shows 32 metronoms that interlocks.
Cheers,
Magnus
___
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and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
I first read about this is Scientific American a couple decades ago. A
slightly different set of clocks become largely synchronized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-Vy7NZTGos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photinus_carolinus
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Fellow time-nuts,
This little nice example of clocks interlocking just passed by my
web-browser:
o9.com/5947112/watch-32-discordant-metronomes-achieve-synchrony-in-a-matter-of-minutes?action_type_map={
10153226568265094:og.likes}fb_action_types=og.likesfb_source=other_multilineaction_object_map={10153226568265094:159320750875948}action_ref_map=fb_action_ids=10153226568265094
It shows 32 metronoms that interlocks.
Cheers,
Magnus
___
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Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
My stashed URL for the 32 metronomes is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWToUATLGzs It's great! Here are a couple more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yysnkY4WHyM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TMZASCR-I -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
The first character was dropped off:
http://io9.com/5947112/watch-32-discordant-metronomes-achieve-synchrony-in-a-matter-of-minutes
On 9/13/13 1:44 PM, Tim Shoppa wrote:
I first read about this is Scientific American a couple decades ago. A
slightly different set of clocks become largely synchronized.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-Vy7NZTGos
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photinus_carolinus
On Fri, Sep 13, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Magnus Danielson
mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote:
Fellow time-nuts,
This little nice example of clocks interlocking just passed by my
web-browser:
o9.com/5947112/watch-32-discordant-metronomes-achieve-synchrony-in-a-matter-of-minutes?action_type_map={
10153226568265094:og.likes}fb_action_types=og.likesfb_source=other_multilineaction_object_map={10153226568265094:159320750875948}action_ref_map=fb_action_ids=10153226568265094
It shows 32 metronoms that interlocks.
Cheers,
Magnus
___
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Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Question about the two metronome experiment. Is the slow one sped up or the fast one slowed down? Or do they arrive at a compromise? Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other My stashed URL for the 32 metronomes is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWToUATLGzs It's great! Here are a couple more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yysnkY4WHyM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TMZASCR-I -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Compromise. On 9/13/13 7:56 PM, Max Robinson wrote: Question about the two metronome experiment. Is the slow one sped up or the fast one slowed down? Or do they arrive at a compromise? Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other My stashed URL for the 32 metronomes is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWToUATLGzs It's great! Here are a couple more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yysnkY4WHyM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TMZASCR-I -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Hi The effect applies to a lot more than metronomes. Where things lock up depends a lot on the level of coupling. In some cases they arrive at a compromise. In others they decide to lock at one or the other side of the average. The decision in that case is fractal, so predicting which side they will go to isn't very easy. Bob On Sep 13, 2013, at 7:56 PM, Max Robinson m...@maxsmusicplace.com wrote: Question about the two metronome experiment. Is the slow one sped up or the fast one slowed down? Or do they arrive at a compromise? Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other My stashed URL for the 32 metronomes is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWToUATLGzs It's great! Here are a couple more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yysnkY4WHyM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TMZASCR-I -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Maybe not. We need the math that describes the phenomenon, but it won't come from me. Consider the way that television sync pulses synchronized the sweep oscillators. The pulse has to get there before the oscillator cycles on its own. Similarly, the movement of the common base has to occur before a metronome clicks by itself. The devices synchronize to the fastest metronome, or they can't all synchronize. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: David McGaw Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:11 PM Compromise. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Not true. It depends on the strength and reciprocity of the coupling. If essentially equal as with the metronomes which are coupled pendulums (the math exists for this), the systems will come to some combination frequency, though as has been mentioned in a many-oscillator system there may be multiple solutions. The TV oscillator example is different as the driving source is not influenced by the locked oscillator. Now, can we lock multiple atomic oscillators together into a super-accurate ensemble? David On 9/13/13 10:13 PM, Bill Hawkins wrote: Maybe not. We need the math that describes the phenomenon, but it won't come from me. Consider the way that television sync pulses synchronized the sweep oscillators. The pulse has to get there before the oscillator cycles on its own. Similarly, the movement of the common base has to occur before a metronome clicks by itself. The devices synchronize to the fastest metronome, or they can't all synchronize. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: David McGaw Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:11 PM Compromise. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
If 99 out of 100 metronomes were slower than the one fast one, I don't think it would rule. I think you're overlooking the fact that this is a greatest moving mass rules case. Notice that the board they're resting on moves. This changes the speed of the pendulums as they move. It can either slow the fewer ones down, or speed the fewer ones up. Bob From: Bill Hawkins b...@iaxs.net To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 9:13 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other Maybe not. We need the math that describes the phenomenon, but it won't come from me. Consider the way that television sync pulses synchronized the sweep oscillators. The pulse has to get there before the oscillator cycles on its own. Similarly, the movement of the common base has to occur before a metronome clicks by itself. The devices synchronize to the fastest metronome, or they can't all synchronize. Bill Hawkins -Original Message- From: David McGaw Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:11 PM Compromise. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
b...@evoria.net said: If 99 out of 100 metronomes were slower than the one fast one, I don't think it would rule. I think you're overlooking the fact that this is a greatest moving mass rules case. Notice that the board they're resting on moves. This changes the speed of the pendulums as they move. It can either slow the fewer ones down, or speed the fewer ones up. Consider a kid on a swing (aka pendulum) with an adult providing the propulsion. The normal approach is that you put your fingers on the swing as it gets near the top and measure when it starts back down and then add a gentle push. That doesn't change the frequency, at least not much. You could also push before it gets to the top. That would speed things up. (aka increase frequency) You could also pull as it gets near the top. (or hold on a bit) That would slow things down. (aka decrease frequency) Instead of pushing by hand, you could also put the whole swing and kid on a giant shake table. Have any of the outfits with BIG shake tables put a swing on them for their employee type open houses or such? In the context of metronomes, the platform is the shake table and it vibrates at the consensus frequency with some noise. It might be fun for a time-nuts geek[1] to measure and analyze the motion of the table and/or see how that motion interacts with a set of metronomes. -- Has anybody measured any collection of typical crystals when their power (or whatever) is deliberately coupled? (or at least not isolated) --- 1] Is geek and time-nuts redundant? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
And, in fact, the mass of the shake table has a big impact on the lock time, as does the mass of everything else besides the mass of the pendulum weights. Would there be a natural resonant frequency of the non-moving masses (shake table etc) that could prevent lockup? Bob From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other snip In the context of metronomes, the platform is the shake table and it vibrates at the consensus frequency with some noise. It might be fun for a time-nuts geek[1] to measure and analyze the motion of the table and/or see how that motion interacts with a set of metronomes. -- Has anybody measured any collection of typical crystals when their power (or whatever) is deliberately coupled? (or at least not isolated) --- 1] Is geek and time-nuts redundant? -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other
Thank you. Interesting. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@rtty.us To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 7:12 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other Hi The effect applies to a lot more than metronomes. Where things lock up depends a lot on the level of coupling. In some cases they arrive at a compromise. In others they decide to lock at one or the other side of the average. The decision in that case is fractal, so predicting which side they will go to isn't very easy. Bob On Sep 13, 2013, at 7:56 PM, Max Robinson m...@maxsmusicplace.com wrote: Question about the two metronome experiment. Is the slow one sped up or the fast one slowed down? Or do they arrive at a compromise? Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Hal Murray hmur...@megapathdsl.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, September 13, 2013 1:16 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Example of clocks interlocking with each other My stashed URL for the 32 metronomes is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWToUATLGzs It's great! Here are a couple more: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yysnkY4WHyM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1TMZASCR-I -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
