Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Paddock]

> it exists and it is called CDC class:
> 
>
> On Windows (for the the serial adapters) it was completely supported from XP
> (SP2?).

SP3 fixes several obscure issues such as the problem with 'combined'
functions, say a Keyboard and Serial Port as one device:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/918365

"The Usbser.sys driver may not load when a USB device uses an IAD to
define a function that has multiple interfaces, and this function uses
the Usbser.sys driver file in Windows XP"

There are few people that actually recommended using the stock Windows
CDC devices.
FTDI does their own drivers for a reason.

Most odd ball devices use the Human Interface Device (HID) class.

The polled nature of USB 2.0 and less could be a week link in getting
'now' into a computer from Time Nut Hardware.

USB 3.0 gets away from polling in some cases, and might be of more
interest to Time Nuts.


-- 
http://blog.softwaresafety.net/
http://www.designer-iii.com/
http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation - Basic

[Bob Bownes]

>
>>>
>>>  The 5328 will also take a 10881. Plugs right into the motherboard.
>>
>
> You go via a separate board to have a 10811 oscillator. It is not uncommon
> for 10811s to be delivered with this board since some figure they get more
> by selling the 5328 separate from the 10811. Ah well. I use that board to
> drive my lab-bench 10811... need to box it up.
>
>
Interesting. Mine have the 10811 plugged straight into the main board.  I
got the 'daughtercard' with a bare 10811 I bought a while back. Maybe I
should go dig it out.

Bob
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation - Basic

[Magnus Danielson]

On 12/23/2010 04:29 PM, Bob Bownes wrote:

The other is what one can buy on the market that is
better than the HP 5328?

The first step up IMHO is the HP 5335.  I have two.
AFAIK it is the first of the series that will do TIC.  The TIC
specification is 100 pico-seconds.
For reference the HP 5370A/B TIC spec is 10 pico-seconds.



The 5328 will do TIC. It may not be too good at it or have the resolution of
the 5335/5370's, but it will do it, both a->b and c,a->b.


Indeed. If you have the option 040/041/042 boars you go from 100 ns to 
10 ns single-shot solution, and in addition when you do averaging noise 
is added to the reference clock such that higher average resolution is 
achieved. I would like to have a GPIB-interface for my 5328 so I would 
have a lower threshold for doing statistical analysis of the properties.



Compared to the 5328 it has more real estate on the
interior and will take the 110811 type of high stability oscillator.  The
one I have that just has the standard
oscillator appears to have the 10811 type crystal in the open but seems
very
stable.



The 5328 will also take a 10881. Plugs right into the motherboard.


You go via a separate board to have a 10811 oscillator. It is not 
uncommon for 10811s to be delivered with this board since some figure 
they get more by selling the 5328 separate from the 10811. Ah well. I 
use that board to drive my lab-bench 10811... need to box it up.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation - Basic

[Bob Bownes]

> The other is what one can buy on the market that is
> better than the HP 5328?
>
> The first step up IMHO is the HP 5335.  I have two.
> AFAIK it is the first of the series that will do TIC.  The TIC
> specification is 100 pico-seconds.
> For reference the HP 5370A/B TIC spec is 10 pico-seconds.
>

The 5328 will do TIC. It may not be too good at it or have the resolution of
the 5335/5370's, but it will do it, both a->b and c,a->b.


> Compared to the 5328 it has more real estate on the
> interior and will take the 110811 type of high stability oscillator.  The
> one I have that just has the standard
> oscillator appears to have the 10811 type crystal in the open but seems
> very
> stable.
>
>
The 5328 will also take a 10881. Plugs right into the motherboard.
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[time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation - Basic

[Perry Sandeen]

List,

 

The opinions given have been fascinating.  However I see this discussion going 
in two
directions.  One is making a
counter.  This is fine.  Go for it if you have all the resources and
time it will require.  The Achilles heel
that I see to this project is being able to duplicate the math functions found
in commercial counters but if one can do that, great.

 

The other is what one can buy on the market that is
better than the HP 5328?

 

The first step up IMHO is the HP 5335.  I have two. 
AFAIK it is the first of the series that will do TIC.  The TIC specification is 
100 pico-seconds.
For reference the HP 5370A/B TIC spec is 10 pico-seconds.

 

Compared to the 5328 it has more real estate on the
interior and will take the 110811 type of high stability oscillator.  The one I 
have that just has the standard
oscillator appears to have the 10811 type crystal in the open but seems very
stable.

 

One can find them on ePay for a wild range of prices
but around $200 is a reasonable price with the high stability oscillator.  This 
is the most important item affecting the
price.  Beware of the listings.  They are usually copies of a brochure.   
Before bidding  have the seller verify if there is an Option
10 sticker.  If the tag is there but
someone has removed it, you have recourse.  
If possible, have the seller open it up and see if it is actually in the
unit because it will work W/O it.   

 

I paid $35 for one with the  regular oscillator and $37 for shipping from
Ridge Equipment. (It was guaranteed to work). 
They are regulars on ePay.

 

Soap Box Opinion. 
Personally I’d wait until the Christmas season is over.  After the January and 
February credit card
statements are sent and the depression continues it will be more of a buyers
market with realistic prices.  Adding
market pressure is a whole line of new test equipment coming out of China.  
With the decline of the US electronics
industry and the use now of computerized board testers, I believe in the near
future we will see the market flooded with dealers taking anything they can
get.
Regards,
Perrier








  
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Dave M]

I'd like to input a few suggestions regarding layout and construction, 
namely, the PCB material and the form factor.

I suggest that any circuitry processing signals over about 2-3 GHz be 
constructed on a PTFE or PTFE/ceramic PCB material, such as Rogers RT/Duroid 
(www.rogerscorp.com/). Arlon (arlon-med.com) also markets similar PCB 
material.  The lower frequency circuitry can be made on FR4 or equivalent.

As to the modularity, I suggest that modules be made so that they are 
stackable, but not attached to each other directly, but through a 24, 30 or 
40-pin (or whatever width is necessary) ribbon cable on the rear.  The cable 
would have IDC card-edge connectors spaced so that they could attach to all 
modules. Similar to the arrangement that older PCs had to interconnect 
floppy and hard disk drives.   The modules would be stacked on top of each 
other, using aluminum or steel threaded spacers.  That way, no card cage, 
intermodule interface system or back plane would be needed.  Physical size 
could be determined at PCB layout time.  Build all modules to be stacked, 
using the smallest size that would accommodate all modules.  Any RF In/out 
connectors or displays could be brought out on the front edge of the 
modules, and extended to the front of whatever chassis the user chooses by 
short extension wires/cables.

As to the production issue, if these boards are envisioned to be distributed 
in kit form, I suggest that consideration be given to the possibility of 
having a fab house fix the small, high pin count parts to the PCB and leave 
the larger, easier to solder parts for the kit builder to assemble.  On the 
other hand, it is probably just as cheap to have the whole board stuffed and 
soldered than only a few ICs.  That's a decision to be made by the PCB 
manager.

I agree with the power supply approach that all supplies would be user 
supplied, with a STRONG recommendation that all supplies be linear.  SMPS 
supplies could be used at the users' risk.

Thanks for listening,
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bruce Griffiths]

Bob Bownes wrote:

Comments inline.


On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Chris Albertson   

wrote:
 
   

I looked.   I think we should keep the design goals modest for a first
revision.  Shoot for a spec that can be hand built on perf board.  So
I'd relax those numbers by a factor of 1000.  The top frequency is in
Mhz, not Ghz and the time resolution closer to ns than ps.  It's good
to have a cheap option.  Many people are happy with an FCC1  Try for
the next step after that with a goal of actually matching the state of
the art in steps.


 

My initial thinking was to be better than a pictic ii, preferably on par
with, or better than  a 5370. I'm not sure you can do that on perfboard. I
suppose if the speed is kept low it can be done that way.

   
Around 25ps jitter is the likely lower limit with such construction 
techniques.

Others have pointed out (offline) 20Ghz isn't reasonabe with a decent noise
figure or prescalers. What do people think a reasonable number is? What
about resolution? I'd like to get better than a ns, preferably a lot better.
   
1ps resolution is trivial just use a sufficiently high resolution ADC 
(16bit) with a short TAC interpolator range (10ns?)

Achieving a commensurate jitter is somewhat trickier.

Around 3ps or so rms short term jitter should be easy enough, the 
Wavercrest 2075 does this without using anything particularly esoteric.


10ps jitter should be very easy.
The latest Agilent time interval counters counters achieve around 9ps or so.

1ps rms jitter shouldn't be beyond reach (at least with the ringing tank 
method).
However a good layout together with at least a 4 layer board will likely 
be necessary.


Adequate grounding and shielding will also be necessary.


Why no through holes?  I don't see the point of banishing them.  I to
   

agree with the rest.  SMT that is hand solderable by a skilled tech
but now reflow ovens or solder past masks should be required .  You
might place a limit on component size too like 0.5mm lead pitch or
whatever is reasonable.


 

I've been prototyping a lot of late and restricting the number of through
holes makes the job much much easier and quicker. No other real reason.

   
Precluding the use of  RF dams (these use arrays of plated through 
holes) is probably counter productive.

I didn't place a limit on the lead pitch because a) I felt that limited the
component selection and b) pretty much even the finest pitch can be hand
assembled with care, solder wick, and 20x magnification. But if folks are
very against it, it can go in the 'desired qualities' list. My only fear is
the limit it might put on critical parts like a FPGA.

Mechanical assy is going to be a killer. Let's start with overall form
factor.

   Rack mount or bench format?

   If rack mount, 1U or more?

   Commercial project enclosure (ala the VNA Hammond box) or do we take
an existing form factor like a disk drive as you suggest.

Heck, if we go with a disk drive size, it could be built/slid into anyone's
lab PC case and use ribbon cable as a back plane... 1/2 :)

   

Inadequate shielding?

I like 1U because it matches up with the rest of the test equipment on the
bench and it gives it a professional feel. And there are many many surplus
1U cases out there with decent +/-12vdc,+5vdc (even some with 3.3vdc) power
supplies.

   
Linear supplies or perhaps extremely low noise/well filtered switchmode 
supplies will likely be necessary.

Bob


   

Bruce
   

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Bob Bownes  wrote:
 

Well said Chris. Take a look at the initial spec in the OpenCounter Gogle
group and tell me what you think with respect to your item #1. I think
   

the
 

core counter is going to be the really difficult part of the module list.

Item #2 is going to be a tough one methinks. I love Eurocard, but, as you
say, it is very expensive, if only for the connectors. In cases like this
I'm a fan of either repurposing commercially available connectors (PCI
   

and
 

memory DIMMS are two I have used in the past) because they can be a)
purchased off the shelf, b) are manufactured in enough volume to make
   

cheap,
 

and c) are common enough that the really cheap amongst us can get them
   

off
 

of scrap boards someplace for little or nothing. The N2PK VNA is built to
fit into a particular HAmmond enclosure that I like but again, there are
many options. My feeling is that the enclosure should not dictate any
functional design decisions.

#3 - I've created a group and appointed myself benevolent dictator. We
   

can
 

discuss things, propose designs or design criteria, call for a concensus,
accept, and draft volunteers to design that section to the defined spec.
   

If
 

there are multiple competing designs, so much the better, as long as we
   

all
 

agree on the interfaces. Sound like a process? Can you tell I've done
   

this
 

once or twice? :)

Step one wil

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Bownes]

Comments inline.


On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 11:17 PM, Chris Albertson  wrote:

> I looked.   I think we should keep the design goals modest for a first
> revision.  Shoot for a spec that can be hand built on perf board.  So
> I'd relax those numbers by a factor of 1000.  The top frequency is in
> Mhz, not Ghz and the time resolution closer to ns than ps.  It's good
> to have a cheap option.  Many people are happy with an FCC1  Try for
> the next step after that with a goal of actually matching the state of
> the art in steps.
>
>
My initial thinking was to be better than a pictic ii, preferably on par
with, or better than  a 5370. I'm not sure you can do that on perfboard. I
suppose if the speed is kept low it can be done that way.

Others have pointed out (offline) 20Ghz isn't reasonabe with a decent noise
figure or prescalers. What do people think a reasonable number is? What
about resolution? I'd like to get better than a ns, preferably a lot better.


Why no through holes?  I don't see the point of banishing them.  I to
> agree with the rest.  SMT that is hand solderable by a skilled tech
> but now reflow ovens or solder past masks should be required .  You
> might place a limit on component size too like 0.5mm lead pitch or
> whatever is reasonable.
>
>
I've been prototyping a lot of late and restricting the number of through
holes makes the job much much easier and quicker. No other real reason.

I didn't place a limit on the lead pitch because a) I felt that limited the
component selection and b) pretty much even the finest pitch can be hand
assembled with care, solder wick, and 20x magnification. But if folks are
very against it, it can go in the 'desired qualities' list. My only fear is
the limit it might put on critical parts like a FPGA.

Mechanical assy is going to be a killer. Let's start with overall form
factor.

  Rack mount or bench format?

  If rack mount, 1U or more?

  Commercial project enclosure (ala the VNA Hammond box) or do we take
an existing form factor like a disk drive as you suggest.

Heck, if we go with a disk drive size, it could be built/slid into anyone's
lab PC case and use ribbon cable as a back plane... 1/2 :)

I like 1U because it matches up with the rest of the test equipment on the
bench and it gives it a professional feel. And there are many many surplus
1U cases out there with decent +/-12vdc,+5vdc (even some with 3.3vdc) power
supplies.


Bob



> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Bob Bownes  wrote:
> > Well said Chris. Take a look at the initial spec in the OpenCounter Gogle
> > group and tell me what you think with respect to your item #1. I think
> the
> > core counter is going to be the really difficult part of the module list.
> >
> > Item #2 is going to be a tough one methinks. I love Eurocard, but, as you
> > say, it is very expensive, if only for the connectors. In cases like this
> > I'm a fan of either repurposing commercially available connectors (PCI
> and
> > memory DIMMS are two I have used in the past) because they can be a)
> > purchased off the shelf, b) are manufactured in enough volume to make
> cheap,
> > and c) are common enough that the really cheap amongst us can get them
> off
> > of scrap boards someplace for little or nothing. The N2PK VNA is built to
> > fit into a particular HAmmond enclosure that I like but again, there are
> > many options. My feeling is that the enclosure should not dictate any
> > functional design decisions.
> >
> > #3 - I've created a group and appointed myself benevolent dictator. We
> can
> > discuss things, propose designs or design criteria, call for a concensus,
> > accept, and draft volunteers to design that section to the defined spec.
> If
> > there are multiple competing designs, so much the better, as long as we
> all
> > agree on the interfaces. Sound like a process? Can you tell I've done
> this
> > once or twice? :)
> >
> > Step one will be to agree on the overall functional spec. If we get
> enough
> > participants, I'd like to nail that down by mid January. The next step is
> to
> > agree on the interfaces between the modules. Same process, discuss,
> propose,
> > draft, get concensus, close and move on.
> > Then we get folks working on the individual modules.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Albertson
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Dave M 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> .. never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to
> >> > consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks
> >> > spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was
> unwilling
> >> to
> >> > yield on anyone else's ideas.   Hopefully, our project won't degrade
> into
> >> > another such fiasco.
> >>
> >>
> >> THAT is the number one problem to solve.  Technical issues are easy
> >>
> >> I think the solution is to
> >> (1) chop the project up into small enough parts, each on it's own PCB
> >> so that each part is "easy" and has some wider user o

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

I looked.   I think we should keep the design goals modest for a first
revision.  Shoot for a spec that can be hand built on perf board.  So
I'd relax those numbers by a factor of 1000.  The top frequency is in
Mhz, not Ghz and the time resolution closer to ns than ps.  It's good
to have a cheap option.  Many people are happy with an FCC1  Try for
the next step after that with a goal of actually matching the state of
the art in steps.

Why no through holes?  I don't see the point of banishing them.  I to
agree with the rest.  SMT that is hand solderable by a skilled tech
but now reflow ovens or solder past masks should be required .  You
might place a limit on component size too like 0.5mm lead pitch or
whatever is reasonable.

Mechanical part is not easy.  Need to re-purpose some mass produced
chassis.  That keeps leading me back to computer hard drives.  What if
you made the PCB the same size as a disk drive and then got some 1" x
1/4" aluminum L extrusion and screwed some of the aluminum around
three sides of the PCB.  low-tech metal work but they might slide into
a disk drive enclosure that is made to house SATA drives.   These
enclosures come in any size for one drive all the way up to 6 foot
racks.

If yu also place a aluminum L across the short side you have space for
conectors and switches

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Bob Bownes  wrote:
> Well said Chris. Take a look at the initial spec in the OpenCounter Gogle
> group and tell me what you think with respect to your item #1. I think the
> core counter is going to be the really difficult part of the module list.
>
> Item #2 is going to be a tough one methinks. I love Eurocard, but, as you
> say, it is very expensive, if only for the connectors. In cases like this
> I'm a fan of either repurposing commercially available connectors (PCI and
> memory DIMMS are two I have used in the past) because they can be a)
> purchased off the shelf, b) are manufactured in enough volume to make cheap,
> and c) are common enough that the really cheap amongst us can get them off
> of scrap boards someplace for little or nothing. The N2PK VNA is built to
> fit into a particular HAmmond enclosure that I like but again, there are
> many options. My feeling is that the enclosure should not dictate any
> functional design decisions.
>
> #3 - I've created a group and appointed myself benevolent dictator. We can
> discuss things, propose designs or design criteria, call for a concensus,
> accept, and draft volunteers to design that section to the defined spec. If
> there are multiple competing designs, so much the better, as long as we all
> agree on the interfaces. Sound like a process? Can you tell I've done this
> once or twice? :)
>
> Step one will be to agree on the overall functional spec. If we get enough
> participants, I'd like to nail that down by mid January. The next step is to
> agree on the interfaces between the modules. Same process, discuss, propose,
> draft, get concensus, close and move on.
> Then we get folks working on the individual modules.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Albertson
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Dave M  wrote:
>> >
>> .. never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to
>> > consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks
>> > spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was unwilling
>> to
>> > yield on anyone else's ideas.   Hopefully, our project won't degrade into
>> > another such fiasco.
>>
>>
>> THAT is the number one problem to solve.  Technical issues are easy
>>
>> I think the solution is to
>> (1) chop the project up into small enough parts, each on it's own PCB
>> so that each part is "easy" and has some wider user outside the
>> project.
>> (2) Find a mechanical standard so all the PCBs can be mounted in some
>> kind of chassis.  I'm thinking now that maybe a 160-3U Eurocard would
>> be about right size.  But the parts are expensive.
>> (3) Need some sort of design process that allows everyone to
>> contribute.   And everyone can.  Projects always are lacking technical
>> writers and quality control people
>>
>> Of those a "process" and "mechanical standard", I think are the
>> hardest.   We always give managers a hard time but that is what is
>> needed.  The person who will make this happen will be a manager and
>> organizer maybe not a designer.
>>
>>
>> --
>> =
>> Chris Albertson
>> Redondo Beach, California
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
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>



-- 
=
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Bownes]

Lol. Ok. You're added to the group.

I've started a topic on form factor.

Bob



On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Don Latham  wrote:

> Hi benevolent dictator. Please not the @#$%^& Eurocard. As you say, the
> connectors and backplane cost more than the stuff on the cards (except
> maybe the stuff from Hittite :-). Rather a stack of cards with .1 in.
> spacing .025 pins? That way, we can put the stack in any housing we want.
> If a suitable processor card (e.g. propeller or Arduino) is selected,
> daughterboards can be stacked on that.
> Just thinkin'. I've joined the google group.
> Best,
> Don
>
> Bob Bownes
> > Well said Chris. Take a look at the initial spec in the OpenCounter Gogle
> > group and tell me what you think with respect to your item #1. I think
> the
> > core counter is going to be the really difficult part of the module list.
> >
> > Item #2 is going to be a tough one methinks. I love Eurocard, but, as you
> > say, it is very expensive, if only for the connectors. In cases like this
> > I'm a fan of either repurposing commercially available connectors (PCI
> and
> > memory DIMMS are two I have used in the past) because they can be a)
> > purchased off the shelf, b) are manufactured in enough volume to make
> > cheap,
> > and c) are common enough that the really cheap amongst us can get them
> off
> > of scrap boards someplace for little or nothing. The N2PK VNA is built to
> > fit into a particular HAmmond enclosure that I like but again, there are
> > many options. My feeling is that the enclosure should not dictate any
> > functional design decisions.
> >
> > #3 - I've created a group and appointed myself benevolent dictator. We
> can
> > discuss things, propose designs or design criteria, call for a concensus,
> > accept, and draft volunteers to design that section to the defined spec.
> > If
> > there are multiple competing designs, so much the better, as long as we
> > all
> > agree on the interfaces. Sound like a process? Can you tell I've done
> this
> > once or twice? :)
> >
> > Step one will be to agree on the overall functional spec. If we get
> enough
> > participants, I'd like to nail that down by mid January. The next step is
> > to
> > agree on the interfaces between the modules. Same process, discuss,
> > propose,
> > draft, get concensus, close and move on.
> > Then we get folks working on the individual modules.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Albertson
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Dave M 
> wrote:
> >> >
> >> .. never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to
> >> > consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks
> >> > spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was
> >> unwilling
> >> to
> >> > yield on anyone else's ideas.   Hopefully, our project won't degrade
> >> into
> >> > another such fiasco.
> >>
> >>
> >> THAT is the number one problem to solve.  Technical issues are easy
> >>
> >> I think the solution is to
> >> (1) chop the project up into small enough parts, each on it's own PCB
> >> so that each part is "easy" and has some wider user outside the
> >> project.
> >> (2) Find a mechanical standard so all the PCBs can be mounted in some
> >> kind of chassis.  I'm thinking now that maybe a 160-3U Eurocard would
> >> be about right size.  But the parts are expensive.
> >> (3) Need some sort of design process that allows everyone to
> >> contribute.   And everyone can.  Projects always are lacking technical
> >> writers and quality control people
> >>
> >> Of those a "process" and "mechanical standard", I think are the
> >> hardest.   We always give managers a hard time but that is what is
> >> needed.  The person who will make this happen will be a manager and
> >> organizer maybe not a designer.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> =
> >> Chris Albertson
> >> Redondo Beach, California
> >>
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> --
> "Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
> as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
> R. Bacon
> "If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
> Ghost in the Shell
>
>
> Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
> Six Mile Systems LLP
> 17850 Six Mile Road
> POB 134
> Huson, MT, 59846
> VOX 406-626-4304
> www.lightningforensics.com
> www.sixmilesystems.com
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, go to
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> and follow the instructions there.
>
_

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Don Latham]

Hi benevolent dictator. Please not the @#$%^& Eurocard. As you say, the
connectors and backplane cost more than the stuff on the cards (except
maybe the stuff from Hittite :-). Rather a stack of cards with .1 in.
spacing .025 pins? That way, we can put the stack in any housing we want.
If a suitable processor card (e.g. propeller or Arduino) is selected,
daughterboards can be stacked on that.
Just thinkin'. I've joined the google group.
Best,
Don

Bob Bownes
> Well said Chris. Take a look at the initial spec in the OpenCounter Gogle
> group and tell me what you think with respect to your item #1. I think the
> core counter is going to be the really difficult part of the module list.
>
> Item #2 is going to be a tough one methinks. I love Eurocard, but, as you
> say, it is very expensive, if only for the connectors. In cases like this
> I'm a fan of either repurposing commercially available connectors (PCI and
> memory DIMMS are two I have used in the past) because they can be a)
> purchased off the shelf, b) are manufactured in enough volume to make
> cheap,
> and c) are common enough that the really cheap amongst us can get them off
> of scrap boards someplace for little or nothing. The N2PK VNA is built to
> fit into a particular HAmmond enclosure that I like but again, there are
> many options. My feeling is that the enclosure should not dictate any
> functional design decisions.
>
> #3 - I've created a group and appointed myself benevolent dictator. We can
> discuss things, propose designs or design criteria, call for a concensus,
> accept, and draft volunteers to design that section to the defined spec.
> If
> there are multiple competing designs, so much the better, as long as we
> all
> agree on the interfaces. Sound like a process? Can you tell I've done this
> once or twice? :)
>
> Step one will be to agree on the overall functional spec. If we get enough
> participants, I'd like to nail that down by mid January. The next step is
> to
> agree on the interfaces between the modules. Same process, discuss,
> propose,
> draft, get concensus, close and move on.
> Then we get folks working on the individual modules.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Albertson
> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Dave M  wrote:
>> >
>> .. never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to
>> > consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks
>> > spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was
>> unwilling
>> to
>> > yield on anyone else's ideas.   Hopefully, our project won't degrade
>> into
>> > another such fiasco.
>>
>>
>> THAT is the number one problem to solve.  Technical issues are easy
>>
>> I think the solution is to
>> (1) chop the project up into small enough parts, each on it's own PCB
>> so that each part is "easy" and has some wider user outside the
>> project.
>> (2) Find a mechanical standard so all the PCBs can be mounted in some
>> kind of chassis.  I'm thinking now that maybe a 160-3U Eurocard would
>> be about right size.  But the parts are expensive.
>> (3) Need some sort of design process that allows everyone to
>> contribute.   And everyone can.  Projects always are lacking technical
>> writers and quality control people
>>
>> Of those a "process" and "mechanical standard", I think are the
>> hardest.   We always give managers a hard time but that is what is
>> needed.  The person who will make this happen will be a manager and
>> organizer maybe not a designer.
>>
>>
>> --
>> =
>> Chris Albertson
>> Redondo Beach, California
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Bownes]

Well said Chris. Take a look at the initial spec in the OpenCounter Gogle
group and tell me what you think with respect to your item #1. I think the
core counter is going to be the really difficult part of the module list.

Item #2 is going to be a tough one methinks. I love Eurocard, but, as you
say, it is very expensive, if only for the connectors. In cases like this
I'm a fan of either repurposing commercially available connectors (PCI and
memory DIMMS are two I have used in the past) because they can be a)
purchased off the shelf, b) are manufactured in enough volume to make cheap,
and c) are common enough that the really cheap amongst us can get them off
of scrap boards someplace for little or nothing. The N2PK VNA is built to
fit into a particular HAmmond enclosure that I like but again, there are
many options. My feeling is that the enclosure should not dictate any
functional design decisions.

#3 - I've created a group and appointed myself benevolent dictator. We can
discuss things, propose designs or design criteria, call for a concensus,
accept, and draft volunteers to design that section to the defined spec. If
there are multiple competing designs, so much the better, as long as we all
agree on the interfaces. Sound like a process? Can you tell I've done this
once or twice? :)

Step one will be to agree on the overall functional spec. If we get enough
participants, I'd like to nail that down by mid January. The next step is to
agree on the interfaces between the modules. Same process, discuss, propose,
draft, get concensus, close and move on.
Then we get folks working on the individual modules.


On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:43 PM, Chris Albertson
wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Dave M  wrote:
> >
> .. never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to
> > consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks
> > spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was unwilling
> to
> > yield on anyone else's ideas.   Hopefully, our project won't degrade into
> > another such fiasco.
>
>
> THAT is the number one problem to solve.  Technical issues are easy
>
> I think the solution is to
> (1) chop the project up into small enough parts, each on it's own PCB
> so that each part is "easy" and has some wider user outside the
> project.
> (2) Find a mechanical standard so all the PCBs can be mounted in some
> kind of chassis.  I'm thinking now that maybe a 160-3U Eurocard would
> be about right size.  But the parts are expensive.
> (3) Need some sort of design process that allows everyone to
> contribute.   And everyone can.  Projects always are lacking technical
> writers and quality control people
>
> Of those a "process" and "mechanical standard", I think are the
> hardest.   We always give managers a hard time but that is what is
> needed.  The person who will make this happen will be a manager and
> organizer maybe not a designer.
>
>
> --
> =
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Bownes]

*
*Interesting. There are some Hittite D type flip flips that spec out at
13Ghz and 18-22ps rise/fall times with 'deterministic jitter' of 2ps, and a
T type that tops out @26Ghz. Not cheap I'm sure, but we shall see.

I've posted a preliminary specification on the Open Counter google group.
The goals are ambitious and I have no clue how to meet some of them, but I'm
sure someone will have an opinion. :)

http://groups.google.com/group/opencounter?lnk=srg&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Take a look, shoot some holes in it, figure out how to get it accomplished,
accept a module to design.

I'm volunteering to be the project manager and design contributor. I'll make
some totalitarian, fascist decisions too. :)

Bob

**
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Richard H McCorkle 
wrote:
> Ho Ho Ho,
>
> Tis the season once again for giving and I wrote this up to give some
> suggestions to the discussion. The PICTIC II was a spin-off of a GPSDO
> front end designed specifically for low cost, low parts count, amateur
> construction, and 1ns resolution to equal the performance of a modern
> GPS receiver. It was intended for long term monitoring of a frequency
> standard against GPS to free up your commercial counter for other uses.
> I made the design and code public to educate others in the basics of
> interpolating counter design with the hope that they would become
> inspired to improve the design further. There is a case of diminishing
> returns trying to achieve higher TIC resolution using faster clock
> rates. A 1 GHz timebase only provides 1ns resolution, so some form of
> interpolation is generally required for TIC resolutions better than
> 1ns.
>  The current discussion on counter requirements is very educational
> as I went through a similar process before adapting the GPSDO front
> end to a stand-alone project. Most users have a 10 MHz source available
> so this was selected as the default timebase. When it was developed the
> AC CMOS family was chosen as the successor to the HC family with the
> idea that later devices would become available with similar pin-outs,
> but within a year of its design the AC175 became unobtanium in a DIP
> package illustrating the obsolescence problem. The PIC solution may
> not be well liked by many members here but versions of the PIC should
> be available for many years to come and the assembly code can easily
> be ported to later devices as the older ones become obsolete. With an
> external prescaler reducing the clock into the PIC to a rate below
> 16.6 MHz all the other counter functions can be implemented within
> the PIC for as many digits as required. The PIC includes a serial
> UART that can be converted to RS422 or RS-232 to feed a USB dongle
> or LAN adapter, and the PIC TX/RX lines can be optically coupled to
> feed the interface device as required.
>  The PICTIC II was modeled after the SR620 counter but simplified
> to meet the less stringent 1ns requirement for GPS monitoring and to
> reduce the size and cost. The principles of the PICTIC design can be
> applied to a higher resolution counter with the major issues being
> switching speed, noise, and the interpolator used. Testing has shown
> the original PICTIC, the PICTIC II, and the PICTIC+ (12-bit ADC)
> versions all provide roughly the same 650ps resolution regardless
> of the timebase rate used. This implies the actual resolution is
> primarily limited by the switching speed of the AC series CMOS logic
> used in the front-end and the noise produced. The AC74 D-F/F has
> propagation delays in the 3.5 to 10ns range so achieving 1ns TIC
> resolution using AC series logic is pushing its limit.
>  If 100ps TIC resolution is desired the front-end logic and prescaler
> can be changed to ECL, a faster timebase can be used, and an ACAM
> TDC-GPX can be used for the interpolator. Going to ECL requires split
> supplies increasing the cost, but if we are talking a target cost of
> $750 instead of the original $50 target, going to ECL logic with
> ECL-TTL converters feeding the PIC, using dual supplies, and adding
> a $30 interpolator are no longer issues with the higher target cost.
> Once the decision is made to use ECL logic for the prescaler and
> front-end you have lower signal levels with balanced clock and data
> lines to reduce the noise, and the MC100EL51 D-F/F propagation
> delays are in the 385 – 565ps range for 10x or better resolution.
>  The Wavecrest DTS-2075 uses a similar front end implemented in ECL
> and the patent document http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6226231.pdf
> provides sufficient detail to duplicate their interpolators and
> front-end for the two channels required. This can get you in the
> area of 10ps resolution with the potential of slightly better if
> their 14-bit ADC is replaced with a 16-bit ADC. Currently this
> seems to be the state of the art in commercial designs so further
> improvement beyond this will be a challenge only a dedicated
> Time-Nut can appreciate.
>  The Wavecrest front end and interp

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Dave M  wrote:
>
.. never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to
> consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks
> spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was unwilling to
> yield on anyone else's ideas.   Hopefully, our project won't degrade into
> another such fiasco.


THAT is the number one problem to solve.  Technical issues are easy

I think the solution is to
(1) chop the project up into small enough parts, each on it's own PCB
so that each part is "easy" and has some wider user outside the
project.
(2) Find a mechanical standard so all the PCBs can be mounted in some
kind of chassis.  I'm thinking now that maybe a 160-3U Eurocard would
be about right size.  But the parts are expensive.
(3) Need some sort of design process that allows everyone to
contribute.   And everyone can.  Projects always are lacking technical
writers and quality control people

Of those a "process" and "mechanical standard", I think are the
hardest.   We always give managers a hard time but that is what is
needed.  The person who will make this happen will be a manager and
organizer maybe not a designer.


-- 
=
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Mark Spencer]

FWIW my recent experience buying a 5370B resulted in me:

Paying a price closer to $700.00 than $200.00  (but still under $700.00)

Receiving signficantly better representations from the seller than "powers up 
unable to test."

There are still some good deals to be had on the bay..   I recently saw a lot 
of 
two 5334's go for less than $100.00   After buying the 5370 and another 5328 
with a high stab osilcator at a price that was to good to pass up I couldn't 
justify buying two more counters.   



 


- Original Message 
From: Dave M 
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Mon, December 20, 2010 2:51:37 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation


> I don't believe anybody is speaking to perceived value as much as
> historical market cost at various times over the years.  I paid $200
> for my 5370B last year and it's in superb condition and well inside
> factory specs.  There is no way I'd sell it though.
> My guess is Bob C and most of us perceive the
> value to be much greater, never mind the actual cost.
> 
> -Bob
> 
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 4:55 AM, Rex  wrote:
> 
>> Why worry, Just get Bob C to sell you one of his several $200
>> 5370A/B's for a reasonable $100 profit (plus shipping) and you'll
>> beat anything I've seen on eBay in the last year. Everyone should be
>> happy. Bob can can take the profit then (soon) easily get another to
>> replace it at his perceived value.
>> 


OK... you have piqued my interest.  Who is Bob C (is it Bob Camp?) and how can 
I 
contact him for one of those $200 HP 5370 counters?  I'd much rather spend 
$200-$300 on a unit that has a high probability of working than $700 on a 
"powers up, unable to test" unit from the 'Bay.
Hope he has at least one to sell.

As to whether I would rather have a dedicated purpose counter-timer strictly 
for 
these measurements... I can live with a used/surplus unit that I can get my 
hands on now (or in a short time) and wait until the designers in the group can 
design and make a project that we can buy (whether it be kit or preassembled) 
and put to good use.
I understand the issues of platform, connectivity, value, servicability, parts 
availability, etc., but any project, whether it be a commercial product or a 
dedicated, special purpose product, is going to be confronted with the same 
issues.  I've subscribed to the S.E.D. group when they have tried to design and 
build test instruments (a capacitor ESR meter, for one) that never got off the 
launchpad because of their inability to come to consensus on a set of features. 
I had to conclude that too many cooks spoiled the broth. Everyone that had 
input 
to the project was unwilling to yield on anyone else's ideas.  Hopefully, our 
project won't degrade into another such fiasco.
I would jump at a chance to be a small part in this project, and would do 
whatever I could (my limited engineering knowledge noted) to help it get 
realized.

My $0.02 USD worth...
Thanks,
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net




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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Dave M]

I don't believe anybody is speaking to perceived value as much as
historical market cost at various times over the years.  I paid $200
for my 5370B last year and it's in superb condition and well inside
factory specs.  There is no way I'd sell it though.
My guess is Bob C and most of us perceive the
value to be much greater, never mind the actual cost.

-Bob

On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 4:55 AM, Rex  wrote:


Why worry, Just get Bob C to sell you one of his several $200
5370A/B's for a reasonable $100 profit (plus shipping) and you'll
beat anything I've seen on eBay in the last year. Everyone should be
happy. Bob can can take the profit then (soon) easily get another to
replace it at his perceived value.




OK... you have piqued my interest.  Who is Bob C (is it Bob Camp?) and how 
can I contact him for one of those $200 HP 5370 counters?  I'd much rather 
spend $200-$300 on a unit that has a high probability of working than $700 
on a "powers up, unable to test" unit from the 'Bay.

Hope he has at least one to sell.

As to whether I would rather have a dedicated purpose counter-timer strictly 
for these measurements... I can live with a used/surplus unit that I can get 
my hands on now (or in a short time) and wait until the designers in the 
group can design and make a project that we can buy (whether it be kit or 
preassembled) and put to good use.
I understand the issues of platform, connectivity, value, servicability, 
parts availability, etc., but any project, whether it be a commercial 
product or a dedicated, special purpose product, is going to be confronted 
with the same issues.  I've subscribed to the S.E.D. group when they have 
tried to design and build test instruments (a capacitor ESR meter, for one) 
that never got off the launchpad because of their inability to come to 
consensus on a set of features. I had to conclude that too many cooks 
spoiled the broth. Everyone that had input to the project was unwilling to 
yield on anyone else's ideas.   Hopefully, our project won't degrade into 
another such fiasco.
I would jump at a chance to be a small part in this project, and would do 
whatever I could (my limited engineering knowledge noted) to help it get 
realized.


My $0.02 USD worth...
Thanks,
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net




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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Reeves Paul]

It's OK for you guys in the USA with lots of old HP gear around but for us
over the other side of the pond we can only dream of those sort of surplus
quantities - let alone the prices   Still, it's nice to dream.
A 'purpose built' design of a front end might well have quite a few people
interested over here.

Paul Reeves  G8GJA

-Original Message-
From: jimlux [mailto:jim...@earthlink.net]
Sent: 19 December 2010 04:08
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation


Bob Camp wrote:
> Hi
> 
> If you are going to do a full boat implementation and work out all the
isolation issues and packaging, the question becomes:
> 
> Will it be better bang for the buck than a ~ $200 HP 5370?
>

Isn't that the classic New vs Used discussion, though?  Those 5370s 
won't be available for $200 all the time

The used equipment dealers charge more like $750-2k for that, depending 
if it's an A or a B, or if it's calibrated, etc.  The lowest price on 
eBay is around $700

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

I'm shopping for a solution right now.  I had several ideas both
discussed on this thread: Using an old notebook and an ARM based
appliance re-flashed to run Linux but neither would work well.  So I'm
buying this tiny new motherboard from Intel with an Atom CPU on it.
Sells for $70 with the soldered down CPU chip.  It is about 6.5 inches
square and uses so little power that there is no fan on the CPU heat
sink.

This computer will run an NTP server and therefor needs a "real"
serial port for the 1PPS signal from the GPS (USB will not work)   I
do't need much else.  The server does nt need a CDROM or even a hard
drive.  It can run on a RAM disk and boot off a USB memory stick.  It
does not need a monitor or keyboard either.  When you add it all up
this machine will cost about $100 and burn only 1/4 the power of the
old 200Mhz notebook PC.  Intel's "Atom" is very good with power.  ARM
uses even less power but I could not figure out how to get the 1PPS
signal to NTPd in any of the ARM platforms  I have plans to also
connect a WWV receiver to the same computer and decode WWV's time
code.  This means a fair  bit of processing and an audio interface.

THat is one way to solve the "how to interface you project to a
computer" -- you put the computer inside your project.  A $70 and 6.5
inch square motherborad makes that a reasonable plan.

-
=
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Elio Corbolante]

>
> From: "Chris Caudle"
> The problem with USB-RS232 adapters is that there is no class compliant
> device, because there is no USB class for RS232 emulators.  Doesn't exist,
> so every device you've ever seen or used is a custom USB device.  The
> drivers for the FTDI devices ship with modern variants of Windows and
> recent Linux distributions, which makes it behave essentially the same as
> a USB class compliant device, but ubiquitous is not the same as
> standardized.
>

Sorry to contradict you:
it exists and it is called CDC class:

On Windows (for the the serial adapters) it was completely supported from XP
(SP2?).

If your device is _really_ CDC compliant and you have lost its "drivers" it
is enough to take the .INF file from another vendor and, with a text editor,
modify it accordingly to the VID & PID of your adapter.

If you know the inner working of .INF files, you will discover that a true
CDC class compliant device will not require any file except for the .INF
description
If the .INF will load other files (.SYS) it can be for 2 reasons:
1) the device is not really CDC compliant
2) it can work faster if used in a proprietary mode

_ Elio.
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Elio Corbolante]

>
> From: Mark Sims:
> A much simpler solution is to dedicate a $20 "obsolete" laptop to the
> Tbolt.  I use a 200 MHz Compaq Armada with 1024x768 screen.  I have also run
> Heather on a 90 MHz Fujitsu Milan with a 640x480 passive matrix screen.
> For bonus points,  tap off the internal laptop CDROM power connections (and
> possibly an internal -12V line) and power the Tbolt from that (you may want
> to filter the wazoo out of it).  Voila,  battery backed up Tbolt.  I know of
> one person who has an ancient,  steam powered laptop that had enough room
> inside it to mount the Tbolt circuit board totally inside the machine.
>

To me there are several reasons to not use an obsolete laptop... among them:
1) it requires enough space to be considered "annoying"
2) I have already too much cables around
3) It draws at least 20-30 times more energy than the 1 W required by my
circuit: maybe I'm too environmental conscious, but I do not like to waste
energy 24/7/365. Even because here in Italy the price of electrical energy
is the highest in Europe !
4) I need to keep the EMI reduced to a minimum: all of the electronics in
the laptop and its SMPS will generate lots of noise (especially if it is an
obsolete one: I have already tried this path!). My receivers prefer other
type of "noise" :-)
5) Most important one: I like to build things!

_ Elio.
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Caudle]

On Sun, December 19, 2010 3:36 pm, Bob Camp wrote:
> My bag full of useless adapters were indeed "class compliant" back in the
> day. Not so any more under the new approach to signed drivers.

The problem with USB-RS232 adapters is that there is no class compliant
device, because there is no USB class for RS232 emulators.  Doesn't exist,
so every device you've ever seen or used is a custom USB device.  The
drivers for the FTDI devices ship with modern variants of Windows and
recent Linux distributions, which makes it behave essentially the same as
a USB class compliant device, but ubiquitous is not the same as
standardized.

-- 
Chris Caudle



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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Joseph Gray]

One more link that shows the teardown of a Chumby One:
http://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/chumby-one-Teardown/1614/1

As I mentioned, the Insignia circuit board is slightly different. The
overall configuration of the unit is very similar. The Insignia is
actually easier to open than the Chumby.

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 7:28 PM, Joseph Gray  wrote:
> Mark,
>
> You might look at this hardware:
> http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Insignia%26%23153%3B+-+Infocast+3.5%22+Internet+Media+Display/1152881.p?skuId=1152881&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=1152881&ref=06&cmp=RMX&loc=01&id=1218226456157
>
> It is based on the Chumby One design and Best Buy has had it on sale
> for $50 for Xmas. You get an ARM processor, USB ports, a 3.5 inch
> touch screen, a WiFi dongle and lots more. There are also pads for a
> serial port, some GPIO, an I2C and another USB. Here is a link showing
> the hardware: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=1435
>
> This is a lot of nice hardware for the money. The design, schematics
> and the software are Open Source, so it is eminently hackable. It
> boots from a MicroSD card, which makes it easy to change the software.
>
> Details, Wiki, Forum, etc. at: http://www.chumby.com/
>
> Joe Gray
> W5JG
>
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>> -Just as an example, in my spare time I'm trying to port the 
>> great Lady
>> Heather to the "mini STM32":
>> <
>> http://www.micro4you.com/store/Mini-STM32-STM32F103-TFT-LCD-Board/prod_129.html>
>>
>> so my thunderbolts will not be more depending on an always turned-on PC.
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>>
>>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Joseph Gray]

Mark,

You might look at this hardware:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Insignia%26%23153%3B+-+Infocast+3.5%22+Internet+Media+Display/1152881.p?skuId=1152881&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=1152881&ref=06&cmp=RMX&loc=01&id=1218226456157

It is based on the Chumby One design and Best Buy has had it on sale
for $50 for Xmas. You get an ARM processor, USB ports, a 3.5 inch
touch screen, a WiFi dongle and lots more. There are also pads for a
serial port, some GPIO, an I2C and another USB. Here is a link showing
the hardware: http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=1435

This is a lot of nice hardware for the money. The design, schematics
and the software are Open Source, so it is eminently hackable. It
boots from a MicroSD card, which makes it easy to change the software.

Details, Wiki, Forum, etc. at: http://www.chumby.com/

Joe Gray
W5JG

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 3:41 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> -Just as an example, in my spare time I'm trying to port the 
> great Lady
> Heather to the "mini STM32":
> <
> http://www.micro4you.com/store/Mini-STM32-STM32F103-TFT-LCD-Board/prod_129.html>
>
> so my thunderbolts will not be more depending on an always turned-on PC.
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>
>

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Richard H McCorkle]

Ho Ho Ho,

Tis the season once again for giving and I wrote this up to give some
suggestions to the discussion. The PICTIC II was a spin-off of a GPSDO
front end designed specifically for low cost, low parts count, amateur
construction, and 1ns resolution to equal the performance of a modern
GPS receiver. It was intended for long term monitoring of a frequency
standard against GPS to free up your commercial counter for other uses.
I made the design and code public to educate others in the basics of
interpolating counter design with the hope that they would become
inspired to improve the design further. There is a case of diminishing
returns trying to achieve higher TIC resolution using faster clock
rates. A 1 GHz timebase only provides 1ns resolution, so some form of
interpolation is generally required for TIC resolutions better than
1ns.
  The current discussion on counter requirements is very educational
as I went through a similar process before adapting the GPSDO front
end to a stand-alone project. Most users have a 10 MHz source available
so this was selected as the default timebase. When it was developed the
AC CMOS family was chosen as the successor to the HC family with the
idea that later devices would become available with similar pin-outs,
but within a year of its design the AC175 became unobtanium in a DIP
package illustrating the obsolescence problem. The PIC solution may
not be well liked by many members here but versions of the PIC should
be available for many years to come and the assembly code can easily
be ported to later devices as the older ones become obsolete. With an
external prescaler reducing the clock into the PIC to a rate below
16.6 MHz all the other counter functions can be implemented within
the PIC for as many digits as required. The PIC includes a serial
UART that can be converted to RS422 or RS-232 to feed a USB dongle
or LAN adapter, and the PIC TX/RX lines can be optically coupled to
feed the interface device as required.
  The PICTIC II was modeled after the SR620 counter but simplified
to meet the less stringent 1ns requirement for GPS monitoring and to
reduce the size and cost. The principles of the PICTIC design can be
applied to a higher resolution counter with the major issues being
switching speed, noise, and the interpolator used. Testing has shown
the original PICTIC, the PICTIC II, and the PICTIC+ (12-bit ADC)
versions all provide roughly the same 650ps resolution regardless
of the timebase rate used. This implies the actual resolution is
primarily limited by the switching speed of the AC series CMOS logic
used in the front-end and the noise produced. The AC74 D-F/F has
propagation delays in the 3.5 to 10ns range so achieving 1ns TIC
resolution using AC series logic is pushing its limit.
  If 100ps TIC resolution is desired the front-end logic and prescaler
can be changed to ECL, a faster timebase can be used, and an ACAM
TDC-GPX can be used for the interpolator. Going to ECL requires split
supplies increasing the cost, but if we are talking a target cost of
$750 instead of the original $50 target, going to ECL logic with
ECL-TTL converters feeding the PIC, using dual supplies, and adding
a $30 interpolator are no longer issues with the higher target cost.
Once the decision is made to use ECL logic for the prescaler and
front-end you have lower signal levels with balanced clock and data
lines to reduce the noise, and the MC100EL51 D-F/F propagation
delays are in the 385 – 565ps range for 10x or better resolution.
  The Wavecrest DTS-2075 uses a similar front end implemented in ECL
and the patent document http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6226231.pdf
provides sufficient detail to duplicate their interpolators and
front-end for the two channels required. This can get you in the
area of 10ps resolution with the potential of slightly better if
their 14-bit ADC is replaced with a 16-bit ADC. Currently this
seems to be the state of the art in commercial designs so further
improvement beyond this will be a challenge only a dedicated
Time-Nut can appreciate.
  The Wavecrest front end and interpolator could be utilized with
the PICTIC with minor modifications to the code, as the designs are
similar. An external 16-bit ADC like the LTC1865 could be used to
read the interpolators. An ECL prescaler like the MC10H016 would
allow a 200MHz timebase with 12.5 MHz feeding the PIC. An MC100EL05
could be tied to the second synchronizer outputs of both channels
to generate the counter gate. At the end of sample the counter is
stopped, so the low 4 bits of the counter can be read thru an
MC10H601 ECL-TTL converter into the PIC. While these are only
suggestions for a possible system they illustrate what could be
done to increase the resolution of a design similar to the PICTIC.

Happy Holidays

Richard


> That's kinda my point about using rs232. Serial to USB, serial to Ethernet
> adaptors will be available for  a good long while.
>
> Also why I like the idea of a standalone instrume

[time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Mark Sims]

A much simpler solution is to dedicate a $20 "obsolete" laptop to the Tbolt.  I 
use a 200 MHz Compaq Armada with 1024x768 screen.  I have also run Heather on a 
90 MHz Fujitsu Milan with a 640x480 passive matrix screen.  

For bonus points,  tap off the internal laptop CDROM power connections (and 
possibly an internal -12V line) and power the Tbolt from that (you may want to 
filter the wazoo out of it).  Voila,  battery backed up Tbolt.  I know of one 
person who has an ancient,  steam powered laptop that had enough room inside it 
to mount the Tbolt circuit board totally inside the machine.
-Just as an example, in my spare time I'm trying to port the 
great Lady
Heather to the "mini STM32":
<
http://www.micro4you.com/store/Mini-STM32-STM32F103-TFT-LCD-Board/prod_129.html>

so my thunderbolts will not be more depending on an always turned-on PC.
  
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Elio Corbolante]

>
> From: Chris Albertson 
> Yes.  It can if done wrong.
>
> The "correct" way to use USB is to make your USB device "class
> compliant" for some class.  Then most OSes (and with recent releases
> even MS Windows) will have built-in drivers for each class of USB
> device.  Never buy or design a USB device that requires the user to
> instal device drivers.
>
> The worlds has enough poorly designed USB devices that only have
> drivers for old versions of Windows.  We don't need more of those
>

You are right: if correctly developed an USB device can not require any
driver at all to work.
I'm an HW/FW developer and I have done it for several years.
Luckily today almost any OS (Windows/OS X/Linux) supports the most part of
the typical USB classes (like Mass Storage/network/CDC(serial)/...)



> Still. If I were designing a counter I'd just have to talk to a local
> bus using SPI, "2 wire", I2C or whatever and then have a secon module
> that converts "whatever" to USB, rs232, or just a pannel with nixi
> tubes and toggle switches
>

If my project is not money constrained, I prefer to split my device in 2
parts:
- the hardcore one which require to be fast and precise (maybe using an
FPGA/Pictic/...)
- the "user interface" which manage the display/communications/user
interaction/...

On the first one I have not so a great experience (I'm not a so great
time-nut!), on the second part maybe I have some more.
Just as an example, selecting an ARM Cortex M3 core (price: about
10-15USD/piece), one can very easily have the following interfaces in one
single chip (512kB Flash / 64kB RAM)

1) 1xUSB port and/or 1xUSB Host/OTG
2) up to 6 serial ports (RS232/iRDA)
3) Ethernet interface
4) SD card interface
5) CAN interface
6) several SPI and I2C interfaces
7) integrated 12bit A/D and D/A
8) good DMA implementation
9) ...

note to previous points:
1) on most of the ARM devices, there can be 1 o more USB interfaces: they
can be set as "device" or "host/OTG", so they can support even USB memory
stick
1a) if your USB device is CDC compliant, it can be seen as a fast serial
interface by almost any OS: no need of cumbersome USB/serial adapters...
2) there are at least 4/6 serial ports in every chip: I think they can be
enough for the typical usage...
3) You can put your SMALL web server on your interface
6) in general they have 2 or 3 SPI interfaces and 1 or 2 I2C interfaces.
Even I2S, so you can drive your HiRes DAC
8) almost any peripheral (even standard I/O) can be driven by DMA, thus
offloading the CPU from the burden of moving data.

- - - - - -

Just as an example, in my spare time I'm trying to port the great Lady
Heather to the "mini STM32":
<
http://www.micro4you.com/store/Mini-STM32-STM32F103-TFT-LCD-Board/prod_129.html>

so my thunderbolts will not be more depending on an always turned-on PC.
The firmware will poll the Thunderbolt(s) and will store the log on a SD
card.
The color touch screen display (320x240) will permit me to show the most
interesting data and interact with them without using any keyboard/push
button.
The price of this device was not very steep: I bought it for about 20 Euros
(on TaoBao).
It only requires a +5V power supply, but I have already the thunderbolt
power supply, so...
There are some similar HW which have more I/Os and capabilities (touch
screen/network/...) which cost not much more and can do LOTS of of things
(just to start I will suggest you something like the LPCXpresso LPC1768
board).
The development tools can be get for FREE (GCC) and there are LOTS of ready
made libraries (from the chip makers) which will ease the FW development.

.best regards
_  Elio.
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
> My bag full of useless adapters were indeed "class compliant" back in the 
> day. Not so any more under the new approach to signed drivers.


If they were "Class Compliant" they do not need drivers.

=
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 12:45 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
> My bag full of useless adapters were indeed "class compliant" back in the 
> day. Not so any more under the new approach to signed drivers.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
>
>> Yes.  It can if done wrong.
>>
>> The "correct" way to use USB is to make your USB device "class
>> compliant" for some class.  Then most OSes (and with recent releases
>> even MS Windows) will have built-in drivers for each class of USB
>> device.  Never buy or design a USB device that requires the user to
>> instal device drivers.
>>
>> The worlds has enough poorly designed USB devices that only have
>> drivers for old versions of Windows.  We don't need more of those
>>
>> Still. If I were designing a counter I'd just have to talk to a local
>> bus using SPI, "2 wire", I2C or whatever and then have a secon module
>> that converts "whatever" to USB, rs232, or just a pannel with nixi
>> tubes and toggle switches
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> USB ties you into the same silly PC driver two year life silly stuff. The 
>>> bus has a lot of staying power, but keeping the stack up to date is a pain. 
>>> Even for so called "standard" parts that interface to a "common" interface 
>>> - neither one really turns out to be true. I have a big bucket full of 
>>> serial adapters that were standard parts under XP. No drivers to install, 
>>> just plug and play. Under the more modern stuff - no driver available. The 
>>> gizmos are now Christmas ornaments.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 19, 2010, at 10:35 AM, jimlux wrote:
>>>
 Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
> Am 19.12.2010 05:52, schrieb Bob Camp:
>> The real thing you would learn about is writing code that runs an FPGA.
> Yes. A good starting point would be a Xilinx SP605 kit.
> It's about the $750 for a decent 5370 and includes
> many points from Bobs option list.
>> The other gotcha here is that the feature list can get pretty large:
>>
>>
>> 3) USB 2.0 interface
>> 4) RS-232 interface
>> 5) HPIB emulation of an HP box    (w/o drivers)
>> 6) Ethernet interface
>> 1) Web server software
>> 1) Front pannel controls       (W/o mechanic)
>> 2) Front pannel display        (VGA output)
>> 3) Front interface connections (DUT's)
>> 4) Rear pannel standard interfaces and controls  (w/o mechanics)
>> 2) Flash card storage
>> 3) USB stick storage
>> 4) SD card storage
>> 5) Battery backed RAM storage
>> 1) Some number of counter inputs ( some programmable SMA I/O)
>> 2) Some number of reference inputs
>>
>> 1) Battery power
>> 2) Auto 12 V power
>> 3) AC line power
> use as a PCIE card in a pc or mac


 I hate cards that plug into a PC.  The PC bus respin cycle is much too 
 short, and you have device drivers, etc. to worry about.  At work, we use 
 rack mounted PCs to control a bunch of test equipment.  Since we're doing 
 spacecraft stuff, the "design use life" of the rack is 2-3 years, but it 
 will be used beyond that, and often, will get reused for the next project.

 I've spent way too many hours hunting for another ISA bus machine, or 
 trying to resurrect NT4.0, because there's no device drivers for anything 
 newer.

 In my book, RS232 is fine for low end, Ethernet is even better, USB looks 
 pretty good and has some staying power.  Folks implementing things on USB 
 tend to use simple conceptual models (e.g. emulated serial port).

 My only gripe about USB is that it's a very master/slave sort of thing.


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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> =
>> Chris Albertson
>> Redondo Beach, California
>>
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-- 
=
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[bownes]

That's kinda my point about using rs232. Serial to USB, serial to Ethernet  
adaptors will be available for  a good long while. 

Also why I like the idea of a standalone instrument that also has a pc 
interface of some sort.  Or a slot for a pc interface of whatever source I 
want. 

So how does one build the core counter with a start, a stop, and maybe a 10 MHz 
reference input with sub 5ps resolution and accuracy?



On Dec 19, 2010, at 3:50 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
> 
> The gotcha with caps is that they don't block RF very well. Of course if you 
> go high enough in frequency, not much can be blocked anyway. 
> 
> Opto isolated RS-232 is just a pair of cheap optos, a couple of diodes and a 
> few resistors and caps. It costs next to nothing and it will work just fine 
> for any speed you are likely to need in a counter.  Spend $4 on a USB to 
> serial adapter and throw it away when the next generation of driver signing 
> (or what ever) renders it obsolete. Replace it with one that likely costs 50 
> cents then. I won't go into the possibility that it might cost half a Euro or 
> $50 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> On Dec 19, 2010, at 12:01 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> 
>> In message <4d0e3080.1060...@earthlink.net>, jimlux writes:
>>> Bob Camp wrote:
>> 
>>> There are some nice solutions, though, using USB directly, which has the 
>>> advantage of providing a few watts of power.  Isolated DC/DC converters 
>>> are readily available.  you might be able to do transformer isolation of 
>>> the two data wires.
>> 
>> First: you want to use capacitors, not transformers.
>> 
>> Second: it is surprisingly tricky to get to work in practice, I have
>> only ever seen one device that managed to do so, and comply with
>> the USB standard, and the designer swore to never do it again.
>> 
>> People generally default to a small USB-enabled microcontroller
>> with an optocoupler to the real stuff.
>> 
>> -- 
>> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
>> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
>> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
>> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The gotcha with caps is that they don't block RF very well. Of course if you go 
high enough in frequency, not much can be blocked anyway. 

Opto isolated RS-232 is just a pair of cheap optos, a couple of diodes and a 
few resistors and caps. It costs next to nothing and it will work just fine for 
any speed you are likely to need in a counter.  Spend $4 on a USB to serial 
adapter and throw it away when the next generation of driver signing (or what 
ever) renders it obsolete. Replace it with one that likely costs 50 cents then. 
I won't go into the possibility that it might cost half a Euro or $50 

Bob


On Dec 19, 2010, at 12:01 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> In message <4d0e3080.1060...@earthlink.net>, jimlux writes:
>> Bob Camp wrote:
> 
>> There are some nice solutions, though, using USB directly, which has the 
>> advantage of providing a few watts of power.  Isolated DC/DC converters 
>> are readily available.  you might be able to do transformer isolation of 
>> the two data wires.
> 
> First: you want to use capacitors, not transformers.
> 
> Second: it is surprisingly tricky to get to work in practice, I have
> only ever seen one device that managed to do so, and comply with
> the USB standard, and the designer swore to never do it again.
> 
> People generally default to a small USB-enabled microcontroller
> with an optocoupler to the real stuff.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

My bag full of useless adapters were indeed "class compliant" back in the day. 
Not so any more under the new approach to signed drivers. 

Bob


On Dec 19, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

> Yes.  It can if done wrong.
> 
> The "correct" way to use USB is to make your USB device "class
> compliant" for some class.  Then most OSes (and with recent releases
> even MS Windows) will have built-in drivers for each class of USB
> device.  Never buy or design a USB device that requires the user to
> instal device drivers.
> 
> The worlds has enough poorly designed USB devices that only have
> drivers for old versions of Windows.  We don't need more of those
> 
> Still. If I were designing a counter I'd just have to talk to a local
> bus using SPI, "2 wire", I2C or whatever and then have a secon module
> that converts "whatever" to USB, rs232, or just a pannel with nixi
> tubes and toggle switches
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> USB ties you into the same silly PC driver two year life silly stuff. The 
>> bus has a lot of staying power, but keeping the stack up to date is a pain. 
>> Even for so called "standard" parts that interface to a "common" interface - 
>> neither one really turns out to be true. I have a big bucket full of serial 
>> adapters that were standard parts under XP. No drivers to install, just plug 
>> and play. Under the more modern stuff - no driver available. The gizmos are 
>> now Christmas ornaments.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> 
>> On Dec 19, 2010, at 10:35 AM, jimlux wrote:
>> 
>>> Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
 Am 19.12.2010 05:52, schrieb Bob Camp:
> The real thing you would learn about is writing code that runs an FPGA.
 Yes. A good starting point would be a Xilinx SP605 kit.
 It's about the $750 for a decent 5370 and includes
 many points from Bobs option list.
> The other gotcha here is that the feature list can get pretty large:
> 
> 
> 3) USB 2.0 interface
> 4) RS-232 interface
> 5) HPIB emulation of an HP box(w/o drivers)
> 6) Ethernet interface
> 1) Web server software
> 1) Front pannel controls   (W/o mechanic)
> 2) Front pannel display(VGA output)
> 3) Front interface connections (DUT's)
> 4) Rear pannel standard interfaces and controls  (w/o mechanics)
> 2) Flash card storage
> 3) USB stick storage
> 4) SD card storage
> 5) Battery backed RAM storage
> 1) Some number of counter inputs ( some programmable SMA I/O)
> 2) Some number of reference inputs
> 
> 1) Battery power
> 2) Auto 12 V power
> 3) AC line power
 use as a PCIE card in a pc or mac
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I hate cards that plug into a PC.  The PC bus respin cycle is much too 
>>> short, and you have device drivers, etc. to worry about.  At work, we use 
>>> rack mounted PCs to control a bunch of test equipment.  Since we're doing 
>>> spacecraft stuff, the "design use life" of the rack is 2-3 years, but it 
>>> will be used beyond that, and often, will get reused for the next project.
>>> 
>>> I've spent way too many hours hunting for another ISA bus machine, or 
>>> trying to resurrect NT4.0, because there's no device drivers for anything 
>>> newer.
>>> 
>>> In my book, RS232 is fine for low end, Ethernet is even better, USB looks 
>>> pretty good and has some staying power.  Folks implementing things on USB 
>>> tend to use simple conceptual models (e.g. emulated serial port).
>>> 
>>> My only gripe about USB is that it's a very master/slave sort of thing.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> =
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

Yes.  It can if done wrong.

The "correct" way to use USB is to make your USB device "class
compliant" for some class.  Then most OSes (and with recent releases
even MS Windows) will have built-in drivers for each class of USB
device.  Never buy or design a USB device that requires the user to
instal device drivers.

The worlds has enough poorly designed USB devices that only have
drivers for old versions of Windows.  We don't need more of those

Still. If I were designing a counter I'd just have to talk to a local
bus using SPI, "2 wire", I2C or whatever and then have a secon module
that converts "whatever" to USB, rs232, or just a pannel with nixi
tubes and toggle switches


On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
> USB ties you into the same silly PC driver two year life silly stuff. The bus 
> has a lot of staying power, but keeping the stack up to date is a pain. Even 
> for so called "standard" parts that interface to a "common" interface - 
> neither one really turns out to be true. I have a big bucket full of serial 
> adapters that were standard parts under XP. No drivers to install, just plug 
> and play. Under the more modern stuff - no driver available. The gizmos are 
> now Christmas ornaments.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2010, at 10:35 AM, jimlux wrote:
>
>> Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
>>> Am 19.12.2010 05:52, schrieb Bob Camp:
 The real thing you would learn about is writing code that runs an FPGA.
>>> Yes. A good starting point would be a Xilinx SP605 kit.
>>> It's about the $750 for a decent 5370 and includes
>>> many points from Bobs option list.
 The other gotcha here is that the feature list can get pretty large:


 3) USB 2.0 interface
 4) RS-232 interface
 5) HPIB emulation of an HP box    (w/o drivers)
 6) Ethernet interface
 1) Web server software
 1) Front pannel controls       (W/o mechanic)
 2) Front pannel display        (VGA output)
 3) Front interface connections (DUT's)
 4) Rear pannel standard interfaces and controls  (w/o mechanics)
 2) Flash card storage
 3) USB stick storage
 4) SD card storage
 5) Battery backed RAM storage
 1) Some number of counter inputs ( some programmable SMA I/O)
 2) Some number of reference inputs

 1) Battery power
 2) Auto 12 V power
 3) AC line power
>>> use as a PCIE card in a pc or mac
>>
>>
>> I hate cards that plug into a PC.  The PC bus respin cycle is much too 
>> short, and you have device drivers, etc. to worry about.  At work, we use 
>> rack mounted PCs to control a bunch of test equipment.  Since we're doing 
>> spacecraft stuff, the "design use life" of the rack is 2-3 years, but it 
>> will be used beyond that, and often, will get reused for the next project.
>>
>> I've spent way too many hours hunting for another ISA bus machine, or trying 
>> to resurrect NT4.0, because there's no device drivers for anything newer.
>>
>> In my book, RS232 is fine for low end, Ethernet is even better, USB looks 
>> pretty good and has some staying power.  Folks implementing things on USB 
>> tend to use simple conceptual models (e.g. emulated serial port).
>>
>> My only gripe about USB is that it's a very master/slave sort of thing.
>>
>>
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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Javier Herrero]

El 19/12/2010 16:35, jimlux escribió:



I hate cards that plug into a PC.  The PC bus respin cycle is much too 
short, and you have device drivers, etc. to worry about.  At work, we 
use rack mounted PCs to control a bunch of test equipment.  Since 
we're doing spacecraft stuff, the "design use life" of the rack is 2-3 
years, but it will be used beyond that, and often, will get reused for 
the next project.


I've spent way too many hours hunting for another ISA bus machine, or 
trying to resurrect NT4.0, because there's no device drivers for 
anything newer.


In my book, RS232 is fine for low end, Ethernet is even better, USB 
looks pretty good and has some staying power.  Folks implementing 
things on USB tend to use simple conceptual models (e.g. emulated 
serial port).
Exactly the same here - same application too :). I prefer to use in my 
designs Ethernet as much as I can, and also CAN with simple 
CAN-to-Ethernet gateways. I don't have too much confidence for USB in 
these designs except if the layer is simple (like a serial over USB), 
because of the need for special drivers that some devices need (that who 
knows if would run OK on Windows 8.x that will be the one S.O. supported 
in the new computer if the old must be replaced in 5 years - today, only 
making some old things running under Windows 7 64-bit is a headache).


I try also to use Linux :) But sometimes the customer prefers Windows.

Regards,

Javier

--

Javier HerreroEMAIL: jherr...@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L.  PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX:   +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain  WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <4d0e3080.1060...@earthlink.net>, jimlux writes:
>Bob Camp wrote:

>There are some nice solutions, though, using USB directly, which has the 
>advantage of providing a few watts of power.  Isolated DC/DC converters 
>are readily available.  you might be able to do transformer isolation of 
>the two data wires.

First: you want to use capacitors, not transformers.

Second: it is surprisingly tricky to get to work in practice, I have
only ever seen one device that managed to do so, and comply with
the USB standard, and the designer swore to never do it again.

People generally default to a small USB-enabled microcontroller
with an optocoupler to the real stuff.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[jimlux]

Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

Which is why a simple / cheap opto isolated RS-232 connected to a USB dongle 
makes a lot of sense.

Bob




There are some nice solutions, though, using USB directly, which has the 
advantage of providing a few watts of power.  Isolated DC/DC converters 
are readily available.  you might be able to do transformer isolation of 
the two data wires.


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

USB ties you into the same silly PC driver two year life silly stuff. The bus 
has a lot of staying power, but keeping the stack up to date is a pain. Even 
for so called "standard" parts that interface to a "common" interface - neither 
one really turns out to be true. I have a big bucket full of serial adapters 
that were standard parts under XP. No drivers to install, just plug and play. 
Under the more modern stuff - no driver available. The gizmos are now Christmas 
ornaments. 

Bob


On Dec 19, 2010, at 10:35 AM, jimlux wrote:

> Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:
>> Am 19.12.2010 05:52, schrieb Bob Camp:
>>> The real thing you would learn about is writing code that runs an FPGA.
>> Yes. A good starting point would be a Xilinx SP605 kit.
>> It's about the $750 for a decent 5370 and includes
>> many points from Bobs option list.
>>> The other gotcha here is that the feature list can get pretty large:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 3) USB 2.0 interface
>>> 4) RS-232 interface
>>> 5) HPIB emulation of an HP box(w/o drivers)
>>> 6) Ethernet interface
>>> 1) Web server software
>>> 1) Front pannel controls   (W/o mechanic)
>>> 2) Front pannel display(VGA output)
>>> 3) Front interface connections (DUT's)
>>> 4) Rear pannel standard interfaces and controls  (w/o mechanics)
>>> 2) Flash card storage
>>> 3) USB stick storage
>>> 4) SD card storage
>>> 5) Battery backed RAM storage
>>> 1) Some number of counter inputs ( some programmable SMA I/O)
>>> 2) Some number of reference inputs
>>> 
>>> 1) Battery power
>>> 2) Auto 12 V power
>>> 3) AC line power
>> use as a PCIE card in a pc or mac
> 
> 
> I hate cards that plug into a PC.  The PC bus respin cycle is much too short, 
> and you have device drivers, etc. to worry about.  At work, we use rack 
> mounted PCs to control a bunch of test equipment.  Since we're doing 
> spacecraft stuff, the "design use life" of the rack is 2-3 years, but it will 
> be used beyond that, and often, will get reused for the next project.
> 
> I've spent way too many hours hunting for another ISA bus machine, or trying 
> to resurrect NT4.0, because there's no device drivers for anything newer.
> 
> In my book, RS232 is fine for low end, Ethernet is even better, USB looks 
> pretty good and has some staying power.  Folks implementing things on USB 
> tend to use simple conceptual models (e.g. emulated serial port).
> 
> My only gripe about USB is that it's a very master/slave sort of thing.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[jimlux]

Gerhard Hoffmann wrote:

Am 19.12.2010 05:52, schrieb Bob Camp:


 The real thing you would learn about is writing code that runs an FPGA.


Yes. A good starting point would be a Xilinx SP605 kit.
It's about the $750 for a decent 5370 and includes
many points from Bobs option list.

The other gotcha here is that the feature list can get pretty large:


3) USB 2.0 interface
4) RS-232 interface
5) HPIB emulation of an HP box(w/o drivers)
6) Ethernet interface
1) Web server software
1) Front pannel controls   (W/o mechanic)
2) Front pannel display(VGA output)
3) Front interface connections (DUT's)
4) Rear pannel standard interfaces and controls  (w/o mechanics)
2) Flash card storage
3) USB stick storage
4) SD card storage
5) Battery backed RAM storage
1) Some number of counter inputs ( some programmable SMA I/O)
2) Some number of reference inputs

1) Battery power
2) Auto 12 V power
3) AC line power

use as a PCIE card in a pc or mac



I hate cards that plug into a PC.  The PC bus respin cycle is much too 
short, and you have device drivers, etc. to worry about.  At work, we 
use rack mounted PCs to control a bunch of test equipment.  Since we're 
doing spacecraft stuff, the "design use life" of the rack is 2-3 years, 
but it will be used beyond that, and often, will get reused for the next 
project.


I've spent way too many hours hunting for another ISA bus machine, or 
trying to resurrect NT4.0, because there's no device drivers for 
anything newer.


In my book, RS232 is fine for low end, Ethernet is even better, USB 
looks pretty good and has some staying power.  Folks implementing things 
on USB tend to use simple conceptual models (e.g. emulated serial port).


My only gripe about USB is that it's a very master/slave sort of thing.


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Which is why a simple / cheap opto isolated RS-232 connected to a USB dongle 
makes a lot of sense.

Bob


On Dec 19, 2010, at 3:57 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

> In message <28e8c13c-3227-4cd6-bbea-902f03c81...@gmail.com>, bownes writes:
> 
> One of the big problems with "PC-instruments" is isolation: most of them
> havn't any.
> 
> If you are going to design one such, remember to isolate the USB
> port galvanically from the actual instrument...
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[jimlux]

Magnus Danielson wrote:

On 12/19/2010 05:13 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

In the case of a $200 5370, you have to wait a while to find one. When 
you get it, you likely have to do some work to get it running. At the 
very least you will need to do a cal.


My guess is that a counter project would be very similar. There is an 
order and build process that happens every so often. Eventually you 
get a set of boards that *might* work. They still need a bit of this 
and that to get them running. Once running you need to do a cal.


The calibrated and running counter is something you can have tomorrow 
(more or less). That's very different than the kit of boards.


Another issue is that the lifetime of components in home-cooked 
solutions. For "long time support" such a solution needs to be 
retargeted as components come and go. You would then have a line of 
boards doing the same function but not using the same components, which 
would quite likely cause a not optimum usage of these components as the 
capability for performance would shift over time. Eventually will some 
old design decision be a show-stopper for optimum performance.




That's not as big a deal as it is for commercial test equipment.  If you 
invest $50k in a signal generator, you can expect it to work for 10-20 
years, perhaps not with full mfr support but at least with service 
capability.



If you're buying $500 surplus, the risk is the obscure part that's not 
being made anymore.  If you can't find it, or improvise, you figure, 
meh.. another chassis to be used for cannibalization.


But that's the same for a TAPR style project.. you pick some FPGA or 
microcontroller, and the odds of it being available 10-20 years from now 
is zero.  BUT, the big difference is that hopefully, the software is 
published and at least some design information, so 10 years from now, 
someone can pick it up and respin it with whatever part is available. 
or start from scratch.  Either way, you've invested your $500 and got 
5-10 years use out of it.. That's down in the $10/month (beer money) 
range, and a great deal.


Granted, that assumption of design information might be optimistic.

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Javier Herrero]

El 19/12/2010 12:34, Magnus Danielson escribió:


Need to look at it. But essentially, during normal operation common 
mode isolation isn't all that hard. The problem is that during failure 
mode can what should be a common mode voltage and current become 
diffrential mode, which jumps straight through the transformers as a 
transient and that will burn the receiver anyway...


Usually I'm worried with common mode isolation, for noise and EMC 
issues, more than for protection. The kind of equipment where I've used 
it are used in a quite controlled environment (if there is a 
high-voltage transient there, and if it toast the satellite instrument, 
any damage in my equipment would be a lot lot lot less important... 
almost futile :) )
I've seen people burn their Ethernet port by hooking in an ISDN line 
to the wrong connector.



I can imagine :)
A wrapped solution like the ADUM1200 puts more stuff between the 
transformer and actual receiver... so maybe you save the receiver, but 
you might toast the isolator.


Since usually the receiver circuit is also ahead the isolator (for 
example RS422 to TTL, then isolator), it would also be toasted... 
perhaps protecting the isolator :)
For an optical isolation you might toast the transmitter, but that's 
about it. Probably that would be the least of your problems when it 
occurs.



Same thing...

Cheers,
Magnus

Regards,

Javier


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--

Javier HerreroEMAIL: jherr...@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L.  PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX:   +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain  WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 12/19/2010 11:47 AM, Javier Herrero wrote:

Hello

El 19/12/2010 11:13, Magnus Danielson escribió:



To achieve meaningful isolation, it should be optical. Transformer
isolation has a few issues to get right...



What about digital isolators, lile ISO7220, ADuM1200 and so?


Need to look at it. But essentially, during normal operation common mode 
isolation isn't all that hard. The problem is that during failure mode 
can what should be a common mode voltage and current become diffrential 
mode, which jumps straight through the transformers as a transient and 
that will burn the receiver anyway...


I've seen people burn their Ethernet port by hooking in an ISDN line to 
the wrong connector.


A wrapped solution like the ADUM1200 puts more stuff between the 
transformer and actual receiver... so maybe you save the receiver, but 
you might toast the isolator.


For an optical isolation you might toast the transmitter, but that's 
about it. Probably that would be the least of your problems when it occurs.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 19.12.2010 05:52, schrieb Bob Camp:


 The real thing you would learn about is writing code that runs an FPGA.


Yes. A good starting point would be a Xilinx SP605 kit.
It's about the $750 for a decent 5370 and includes
many points from Bobs option list.

The other gotcha here is that the feature list can get pretty large:


3) USB 2.0 interface
4) RS-232 interface
5) HPIB emulation of an HP box(w/o drivers)
6) Ethernet interface
1) Web server software
1) Front pannel controls   (W/o mechanic)
2) Front pannel display(VGA output)
3) Front interface connections (DUT's)
4) Rear pannel standard interfaces and controls  (w/o mechanics)
2) Flash card storage
3) USB stick storage
4) SD card storage
5) Battery backed RAM storage
1) Some number of counter inputs ( some programmable SMA I/O)
2) Some number of reference inputs

1) Battery power
2) Auto 12 V power
3) AC line power

use as a PCIE card in a pc or mac
onchip CPU that can run Linux with DDR ram etc
Fiber optic link
can do massive DSP
FPGA design software and embedded software included

So lest's see, that's 3 x 4 x 5 x 4 x 6 x 6 = 8,640 combinations. That does not 
include any options that actually relate to how the gizmo works. That's just 
talking about the eye candy around the thing.


regards, Gerhard

(who has bought a kit and currently writes some blocks for a SDR)


blocks for a

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Javier Herrero]

Hello

El 19/12/2010 11:13, Magnus Danielson escribió:



To achieve meaningful isolation, it should be optical. Transformer 
isolation has a few issues to get right...




What about digital isolators, lile ISO7220, ADuM1200 and so?

Regards,

Javier

--

Javier HerreroEMAIL: jherr...@hvsistemas.com
Chief Technology Officer
HV Sistemas S.L.  PHONE: +34 949 336 806
Los Charcones, 17 FAX:   +34 949 336 792
19170 El Casar - Guadalajara - Spain  WEB: http://www.hvsistemas.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 12/19/2010 09:57 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

In message<28e8c13c-3227-4cd6-bbea-902f03c81...@gmail.com>, bownes writes:

One of the big problems with "PC-instruments" is isolation: most of them
havn't any.

If you are going to design one such, remember to isolate the USB
port galvanically from the actual instrument...



To illustrate the problem:

A friend of mine do electronic designs, among those power supplies, some 
of those has relatively high voltages.


When measuring one he had his oscilloscope hooked up, which was bad 
since he also had the RS-232 hooked into his computer... which meant 
that he ended up toasting the IO-board of the scope as well as his 
computer... with lots of lots of work on it.


He has recovered, but it was unwanted setback of operations.

To achieve meaningful isolation, it should be optical. Transformer 
isolation has a few issues to get right...


But then again, for this kind of signal, the voltage levels involved is 
usually low, except for some few voltages in cesium-tubes and mains.


Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <28e8c13c-3227-4cd6-bbea-902f03c81...@gmail.com>, bownes writes:

One of the big problems with "PC-instruments" is isolation: most of them
havn't any.

If you are going to design one such, remember to isolate the USB
port galvanically from the actual instrument...

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

On 12/19/2010 05:13 AM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

In the case of a $200 5370, you have to wait a while to find one. When you get 
it, you likely have to do some work to get it running. At the very least you 
will need to do a cal.

My guess is that a counter project would be very similar. There is an order and 
build process that happens every so often. Eventually you get a set of boards 
that *might* work. They still need a bit of this and that to get them running. 
Once running you need to do a cal.

The calibrated and running counter is something you can have tomorrow (more or 
less). That's very different than the kit of boards.


Another issue is that the lifetime of components in home-cooked 
solutions. For "long time support" such a solution needs to be 
retargeted as components come and go. You would then have a line of 
boards doing the same function but not using the same components, which 
would quite likely cause a not optimum usage of these components as the 
capability for performance would shift over time. Eventually will some 
old design decision be a show-stopper for optimum performance.


Is anyone here still using 10V PPS signals?

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[bownes]

For me, at least, the purpose is twofold, to learn, and to get a better 
instrument. The idea of being able to discriminate between two inputs a few ps 
apart is fascinating and something I'd like to learn how it is done. 

The VNA is a good comparison. I have a nice scalar nw but would like a VNA. So 
I built one of the n2pk VNAs. Great experience, great instrument. And I know a 
lot more than I did before. 

I think this project could be done sans prescaler, e.g. good to at least a 
hundred MHz, two inputs, 10mhz timebase input, rs232 out ( with ftdi USB option 
for a couple of hundred dollars in kit form. Would that be great for everyone? 
No. But would at least 10 people buy one and/or participate in the project? 
Probably. Could a design be done that could support all those options someone 
specified? Probably. Would one person be willing to design them all? No way. 
Would all that stuff be less than a 5370? No way. Would I want one of these and 
a 5370? Probably. But that what makes us nuts, isn't it?

The other Bob



On Dec 18, 2010, at 9:39 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:

> Hi
> 
> If you are going to do a full boat implementation and work out all the 
> isolation issues and packaging, the question becomes:
> 
> Will it be better bang for the buck than a ~ $200 HP 5370?
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> On Dec 17, 2010, at 9:29 AM, jimlux wrote:
> 
>> Interesting discussion..
>> comments interspersed
>> 
>> Chris Albertson wrote:
>>> Jumping ahead to design.  No one wants a serial RS232 interface. they
>>> don't even make computers with RS232 ports much any more.  Those guys
>>> that designed equipment that forced people to load costom USB drivers
>>> just did not think.  There is no need for that.  What you do is make
>>> you project appear to be some "standard" USB class and then the OS
>>> (Linux, Windows or Mac OSX) will already have a driver.   That VNA
>>> should have presented itself as a serial port.  And then the software
>>> could read from a serial port.  But of course there would be not
>>> physical RS232 device.
>>> If you have to select an interface I'd rather have any wireless type.
>>> WiFi or Bluetooth.
>> 
>> wireless interface and RF test equipment is a bad combination.  If you're 
>> trying to measure small scale performance (e.g. timing at 1E-10 levels), 
>> small amounts of RF leaking in/out causes problems.  This is one of the 
>> things that separates good test equipment from great equipment.  It's hard 
>> to get better than 100dB isolation from packaging, and if you're looking for 
>> things at the -150dBm level, something at 0dBm is huge.
>> 
>>> But if you are building a modular system you do NOT want to pick one.
>>> You just make a project standard to use (say) I2C, SPI, "two wire" ir
>>> whatever.  Then the counter module is controlled by i2c and if you
>>> want to connect it to a computer you build the USB module but if you
>>> want a stand alone no-computer instrument you build the "front panel"
>>> that has LED numbers.
>>> That is the entire ont is "modular", you avoid this kinds of decisions
>>> and allow for easy upgrade as technology changes.
>> 
>> 
>> IR/fiber optic interfaces are very intriguing.  Too bad that the plastic 
>> fiber stuff costs more than conventional wires/connectors.
>> 
>>> Other questions to resolve are "how many slices to cut the pie into".
>>> I would argue for "very small" single funtions bulding blocks so we
>>> don't have the HPSDR problem of years of time to design each one.
>> 
>> Against that: every connection causes potential troubles.  A better solution 
>> for the generalized case is to put multiple functions together, but don't 
>> necessarily connect them all. Think of the old IF strip chips. Oscillator, 
>> amplifiers, variable gain stages, detectors, all on the same chip but the 
>> ins and outs brought out to pins.  I don't think you want to bring them out 
>> to connectors, but, rather, provide a way to do interconnections, etc.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Selecting a physical chassis to use willl take time.  I like the idea
>>> of using a disk enclosure because then you can buy a 1U or 8U rack or
>>> an old PC chassis, If you modual looks like a disk there are plenty of
>>> things it can fit into.
>> 
>> "old pc chassis" is a very limited life item in a particular configuration.  
>> do you mean my old IBM PC?  Or an AT? or a tower case? or a midsize case?
>> When you say disk drive size, do you mean "5 1/4" floppy/CD-ROM/DVD" or 
>> something else.
>> 
>> Packaging is going to be critical for high performance.  Look at boxes from 
>> COMPAC, for instance.
>> 
 From my experience, for something like this to take off one person has
>>> to take ownership of the project and run with it, make the web site,
>>> write some golas and build "something" that works.  Only then do other
>>> jump in and help.
>>> It really would be good to have a Time and Frequency Instrumentation
>>> Project as currently the state of the art seem to be that you simply
>>> buy someth

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Don Latham]

My original thought in starting all this off was more or less prompted by
the PICTIC2 and the Signalhound (q.v.). All control and calculating
functions are done in the PC. There are NO controls or readouts of any
kind on the device. So, the basics are a front end, with start/stop, a
scaled interval for frequency measurement, and an event counter. If I have
it right, the PICTIC has a front end design (I haven't built mine yet) and
the scaler and counter can be done either with a Propeller or some other
fast relatively inexpensive chip. A prescaler would enable counting higher
frequencies if needed, although the precision is of course cut unless the
prescaler can be "read".
Integrating over many samples, and all the other arithmetic is done by the
PC. I really don't see six-layer boards, switches, lcd's readouts, etc as
necessary at all. So, this device has 3 BNC and one usb connector. Or 3
sma and one miniUSB for the most modern among us. I suppose a wired net
connecion instead of a USB is also possible. You can have a green led to
show it's on, I guess :-)

Don

Bob Camp
> Hi
>
> Which then gets us to the question of just how many people are interested
> in a $750 counter that basically does what a 5370B does? It wouldn't have
> an LED display, but it also would not have 20 pounds of manuals to back it
> up. You'd likely go with something other than HPIB, but in the end it
> would spit data to a PC somehow.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:24 PM, jimlux wrote:
>
>> Bob Camp wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> In the case of a $200 5370, you have to wait a while to find one. When
>>> you get it, you likely have to do some work to get it running. At the
>>> very least you will need to do a cal. My guess is that a counter
>>> project would be very similar. There is an order and build process that
>>> happens every so often. Eventually you get a set of boards that *might*
>>> work. They still need a bit of this and that to get them running. Once
>>> running you need to do a cal.
>>> The calibrated and running counter is something you can have tomorrow
>>> (more or less). That's very different than the kit of boards.
>>> Bob
>>>
>>
>> But, looking at the $750 price point, you should be able to do better on
>>  the boards and not needing to fiddle.  More turn-key.
>>
>> The TAPR VNA is in that price range, and was basically plug it in in,
>> and it works.
>>
>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

The real thing you would learn about is writing code that runs an FPGA.

The other gotcha here is that the feature list can get pretty large:

1) WiFi interface
2) Bluetooth interface
3) USB 2.0 interface
4) RS-232 interface
5) HPIB emulation of an HP box
6)Ethernet interface

- combined with -

1) Web server software
2) Windows PC application / logging software
3) Mac application / logging software
4) Linux application / logging software
5) iPhone application software
6) iPad application software

- combined with 

1) Front pannel controls
2) Front pannel display
3) Front interface connections (DUT's)
4) Rear pannel standard interfaces and controls

 combined with 

1) Internal hard disk storage
2) Flash card storage
3) USB stick storage
4) SD card storage
5) Battery backed RAM storage

 combined with 

1) Some number of counter inputs
2) Some number of reference inputs 
3) Internal GPS receiver
4) Internal Rb standard

- combined with ---

1) Battery power
2) Auto 12 V power
3) AC line power

So lest's see, that's 3 x 4 x 5 x 4 x 6 x 6 = 8,640 combinations. That does not 
include any options that actually relate to how the gizmo works. That's just 
talking about the eye candy around the thing. 

A practical device might be:

2 DUT inputs
10 MHz  reference input
"RS-232" to connect to a USB dongle 
+12 DC power

Application software  TBD. 

Bob


On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:29 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

> It all depends on the goal.  Is it to have a working instrument or to
> learn how they work and maybe to push the state of the art ahead a
> little
> 
> One might ask the same question about ham radio:  "Why bother with all
> that work?  If you want to talk to some one just buy a cell phone and
> be done with it."  Yes if that was the goal the cell phone is the
> obvious solution.
> 
> I think there are ony two reasons to build vs. buy. (1) You want to
> make something that you can't buy, or (2) you want to learn about the
> technology.
> 
> One feature I'd add if I were building this is a self-calibration with
> GPS.  There are a lot of features I can think of.  I'd like a web
> server built-in so the instrument would be operated from an iPhone
> 
> 
>> The calibrated and running counter is something you can have tomorrow (more 
>> or less). That's very different than the kit of boards.
> -- 
> =
> Chris Albertson
> Redondo Beach, California
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Which then gets us to the question of just how many people are interested in a 
$750 counter that basically does what a 5370B does? It wouldn't have an LED 
display, but it also would not have 20 pounds of manuals to back it up. You'd 
likely go with something other than HPIB, but in the end it would spit data to 
a PC somehow. 

Bob


On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:24 PM, jimlux wrote:

> Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> In the case of a $200 5370, you have to wait a while to find one. When you 
>> get it, you likely have to do some work to get it running. At the very least 
>> you will need to do a cal. My guess is that a counter project would be very 
>> similar. There is an order and build process that happens every so often. 
>> Eventually you get a set of boards that *might* work. They still need a bit 
>> of this and that to get them running. Once running you need to do a cal.
>> The calibrated and running counter is something you can have tomorrow (more 
>> or less). That's very different than the kit of boards.
>> Bob
>> 
> 
> But, looking at the $750 price point, you should be able to do better on  the 
> boards and not needing to fiddle.  More turn-key.
> 
> The TAPR VNA is in that price range, and was basically plug it in in, and it 
> works.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

It all depends on the goal.  Is it to have a working instrument or to
learn how they work and maybe to push the state of the art ahead a
little

One might ask the same question about ham radio:  "Why bother with all
that work?  If you want to talk to some one just buy a cell phone and
be done with it."  Yes if that was the goal the cell phone is the
obvious solution.

I think there are ony two reasons to build vs. buy. (1) You want to
make something that you can't buy, or (2) you want to learn about the
technology.

One feature I'd add if I were building this is a self-calibration with
GPS.  There are a lot of features I can think of.  I'd like a web
server built-in so the instrument would be operated from an iPhone


> The calibrated and running counter is something you can have tomorrow (more 
> or less). That's very different than the kit of boards.
-- 
=
Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[jimlux]

Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

In the case of a $200 5370, you have to wait a while to find one. When you get it, you likely have to do some work to get it running. At the very least you will need to do a cal. 


My guess is that a counter project would be very similar. There is an order and 
build process that happens every so often. Eventually you get a set of boards 
that *might* work. They still need a bit of this and that to get them running. 
Once running you need to do a cal.

The calibrated and running counter is something you can have tomorrow (more or 
less). That's very different than the kit of boards.

Bob




But, looking at the $750 price point, you should be able to do better on 
 the boards and not needing to fiddle.  More turn-key.


The TAPR VNA is in that price range, and was basically plug it in in, 
and it works.


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

In the case of a $200 5370, you have to wait a while to find one. When you get 
it, you likely have to do some work to get it running. At the very least you 
will need to do a cal. 

My guess is that a counter project would be very similar. There is an order and 
build process that happens every so often. Eventually you get a set of boards 
that *might* work. They still need a bit of this and that to get them running. 
Once running you need to do a cal.

The calibrated and running counter is something you can have tomorrow (more or 
less). That's very different than the kit of boards.

Bob

 
On Dec 18, 2010, at 11:07 PM, jimlux wrote:

> Bob Camp wrote:
>> Hi
>> If you are going to do a full boat implementation and work out all the 
>> isolation issues and packaging, the question becomes:
>> Will it be better bang for the buck than a ~ $200 HP 5370?
>> 
> 
> Isn't that the classic New vs Used discussion, though?  Those 5370s won't be 
> available for $200 all the time
> 
> The used equipment dealers charge more like $750-2k for that, depending if 
> it's an A or a B, or if it's calibrated, etc.  The lowest price on eBay is 
> around $700
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[jimlux]

Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

If you are going to do a full boat implementation and work out all the 
isolation issues and packaging, the question becomes:

Will it be better bang for the buck than a ~ $200 HP 5370?



Isn't that the classic New vs Used discussion, though?  Those 5370s 
won't be available for $200 all the time


The used equipment dealers charge more like $750-2k for that, depending 
if it's an A or a B, or if it's calibrated, etc.  The lowest price on 
eBay is around $700


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you are going to do a full boat implementation and work out all the 
isolation issues and packaging, the question becomes:

Will it be better bang for the buck than a ~ $200 HP 5370?

Bob


On Dec 17, 2010, at 9:29 AM, jimlux wrote:

> Interesting discussion..
> comments interspersed
> 
> Chris Albertson wrote:
>> Jumping ahead to design.  No one wants a serial RS232 interface. they
>> don't even make computers with RS232 ports much any more.  Those guys
>> that designed equipment that forced people to load costom USB drivers
>> just did not think.  There is no need for that.  What you do is make
>> you project appear to be some "standard" USB class and then the OS
>> (Linux, Windows or Mac OSX) will already have a driver.   That VNA
>> should have presented itself as a serial port.  And then the software
>> could read from a serial port.  But of course there would be not
>> physical RS232 device.
>> If you have to select an interface I'd rather have any wireless type.
>> WiFi or Bluetooth.
> 
> wireless interface and RF test equipment is a bad combination.  If you're 
> trying to measure small scale performance (e.g. timing at 1E-10 levels), 
> small amounts of RF leaking in/out causes problems.  This is one of the 
> things that separates good test equipment from great equipment.  It's hard to 
> get better than 100dB isolation from packaging, and if you're looking for 
> things at the -150dBm level, something at 0dBm is huge.
> 
>> But if you are building a modular system you do NOT want to pick one.
>> You just make a project standard to use (say) I2C, SPI, "two wire" ir
>> whatever.  Then the counter module is controlled by i2c and if you
>> want to connect it to a computer you build the USB module but if you
>> want a stand alone no-computer instrument you build the "front panel"
>> that has LED numbers.
>> That is the entire ont is "modular", you avoid this kinds of decisions
>> and allow for easy upgrade as technology changes.
> 
> 
> IR/fiber optic interfaces are very intriguing.  Too bad that the plastic 
> fiber stuff costs more than conventional wires/connectors.
> 
>> Other questions to resolve are "how many slices to cut the pie into".
>> I would argue for "very small" single funtions bulding blocks so we
>> don't have the HPSDR problem of years of time to design each one.
> 
> Against that: every connection causes potential troubles.  A better solution 
> for the generalized case is to put multiple functions together, but don't 
> necessarily connect them all. Think of the old IF strip chips. Oscillator, 
> amplifiers, variable gain stages, detectors, all on the same chip but the ins 
> and outs brought out to pins.  I don't think you want to bring them out to 
> connectors, but, rather, provide a way to do interconnections, etc.
> 
> 
> 
>> Selecting a physical chassis to use willl take time.  I like the idea
>> of using a disk enclosure because then you can buy a 1U or 8U rack or
>> an old PC chassis, If you modual looks like a disk there are plenty of
>> things it can fit into.
> 
> "old pc chassis" is a very limited life item in a particular configuration.  
> do you mean my old IBM PC?  Or an AT? or a tower case? or a midsize case?
> When you say disk drive size, do you mean "5 1/4" floppy/CD-ROM/DVD" or 
> something else.
> 
> Packaging is going to be critical for high performance.  Look at boxes from 
> COMPAC, for instance.
> 
>>> From my experience, for something like this to take off one person has
>> to take ownership of the project and run with it, make the web site,
>> write some golas and build "something" that works.  Only then do other
>> jump in and help.
>> It really would be good to have a Time and Frequency Instrumentation
>> Project as currently the state of the art seem to be that you simply
>> buy something from a Chinese eBay reseller.  This is hardly what I'd
>> cal "innovation."
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

That's certainly the conclusion the TAPR guys came to. As they have found out, 
you need to do a run of hundreds to make it worth doing. Having a pro do it 
eliminates a whole lot of constraints on parts and sources.

Bob


On Dec 17, 2010, at 4:31 AM, David C. Partridge wrote:

> If your spend is in that sort of region it doesn't cost a great deal more to 
> get a batch of boards professionally pasted, picked, placed and reflowed. 
> 
> Regards,
> David Partridge
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On 
> Behalf Of Bob Camp
> Sent: 16 December 2010 19:20
> To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
> 
> Hi
> 
> Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
> 
> All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey has 
> them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and you are 
> in business if the PC board volume is high enough. 
> 
> In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm 
> spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right 
> tools...
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[jimlux]

Interesting discussion..
comments interspersed

Chris Albertson wrote:



Jumping ahead to design.  No one wants a serial RS232 interface. they
don't even make computers with RS232 ports much any more.  Those guys
that designed equipment that forced people to load costom USB drivers
just did not think.  There is no need for that.  What you do is make
you project appear to be some "standard" USB class and then the OS
(Linux, Windows or Mac OSX) will already have a driver.   That VNA
should have presented itself as a serial port.  And then the software
could read from a serial port.  But of course there would be not
physical RS232 device.

If you have to select an interface I'd rather have any wireless type.
WiFi or Bluetooth.


wireless interface and RF test equipment is a bad combination.  If 
you're trying to measure small scale performance (e.g. timing at 1E-10 
levels), small amounts of RF leaking in/out causes problems.  This is 
one of the things that separates good test equipment from great 
equipment.  It's hard to get better than 100dB isolation from packaging, 
and if you're looking for things at the -150dBm level, something at 0dBm 
is huge.




But if you are building a modular system you do NOT want to pick one.
You just make a project standard to use (say) I2C, SPI, "two wire" ir
whatever.  Then the counter module is controlled by i2c and if you
want to connect it to a computer you build the USB module but if you
want a stand alone no-computer instrument you build the "front panel"
that has LED numbers.
That is the entire ont is "modular", you avoid this kinds of decisions
and allow for easy upgrade as technology changes.



IR/fiber optic interfaces are very intriguing.  Too bad that the plastic 
fiber stuff costs more than conventional wires/connectors.




Other questions to resolve are "how many slices to cut the pie into".
I would argue for "very small" single funtions bulding blocks so we
don't have the HPSDR problem of years of time to design each one.


Against that: every connection causes potential troubles.  A better 
solution for the generalized case is to put multiple functions together, 
but don't necessarily connect them all. Think of the old IF strip chips. 
Oscillator, amplifiers, variable gain stages, detectors, all on the same 
chip but the ins and outs brought out to pins.  I don't think you want 
to bring them out to connectors, but, rather, provide a way to do 
interconnections, etc.






Selecting a physical chassis to use willl take time.  I like the idea
of using a disk enclosure because then you can buy a 1U or 8U rack or
an old PC chassis, If you modual looks like a disk there are plenty of
things it can fit into.


"old pc chassis" is a very limited life item in a particular 
configuration.  do you mean my old IBM PC?  Or an AT? or a tower case? 
or a midsize case?
When you say disk drive size, do you mean "5 1/4" floppy/CD-ROM/DVD" or 
something else.


Packaging is going to be critical for high performance.  Look at boxes 
from COMPAC, for instance.





From my experience, for something like this to take off one person has

to take ownership of the project and run with it, make the web site,
write some golas and build "something" that works.  Only then do other
jump in and help.

It really would be good to have a Time and Frequency Instrumentation
Project as currently the state of the art seem to be that you simply
buy something from a Chinese eBay reseller.  This is hardly what I'd
cal "innovation."








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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bruce Griffiths]

One possible relatively simple module could use an ACAM TDC-GP2 to 
compare the relative stability of a pair of low noise oscillators.
Performance comparable to a 5370A/B at a fraction of the power, weight 
should be achievable in this application.


One of the oscillators would be divided down to at least 1KHz and used 
to drive the start input whilst the undivided oscillator output drives 
the 1st stop channel and the other oscillator drives the 2nd stop channel.
The divider output jitter need not be state of the art as its only used 
to arm the device.
However its clock to output delay should be somewhat less than 1 period 
of the input frequency.


The ACAM TDC-GP2 uses an SPI interface.
In principle one can process all 4 hits in each of the 2 stop channels 
to reduce the noise.

The usable oscillator frequency range is around 200KHz to 50MHz.

Bruce


David C. Partridge wrote:

If your spend is in that sort of region it doesn't cost a great deal more to 
get a batch of boards professionally pasted, picked, placed and reflowed.

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bob Camp
Sent: 16 December 2010 19:20
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

Hi

Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.

All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey has 
them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and you are 
in business if the PC board volume is high enough.

In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm 
spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right tools...

Bob


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[David C. Partridge]

If your spend is in that sort of region it doesn't cost a great deal more to 
get a batch of boards professionally pasted, picked, placed and reflowed. 

Regards,
David Partridge


-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf 
Of Bob Camp
Sent: 16 December 2010 19:20
To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement'
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

Hi

Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.

All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey has 
them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and you are 
in business if the PC board volume is high enough. 

In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm 
spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right tools...

Bob


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Don Latham]

 up. Main mailing list certainly isn't the
>> place to design it. All that said, I don't know enough to design it
>> alone, but I have the ability to fabricate prototypes and can build to
>> someone else's specs. And I'm serious about wanting a better counter
>> than my 5328. :)
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 9:53 PM, Chris Albertson
>>  wrote:
>>> You can't do anything, not even guess at a price until you have a list
>>> of requirements written down.  And they need to be detailed.
>>>
>>> I would break the project down into a set of sub-projects possably like
>>> this
>>>
>>> 1) The "core" counter, just counts, no pre scaler, no display or
>>> reference oscillator. connects to computer with USB.
>>> 2) A display and control panel to the instrument can be independent of
>>> a computer.
>>> 3) The "front end" pre-scaler or other kind of signal conditioning
>>> unit.
>>> 4) A core frequency synthesizer, no display and so on like the core
>>> counters
>>> 5) A A/C mains based power supply
>>> 6) A battery based power supply to be used in place of or in addition
>>> to #4
>>>
>>> If these parts all worked together or at least used the same size PCB
>>> people could get a chassis and start out simple and cheap and build up
>>> a larger system over time.   I was going to build a radio this way
>>> once, I may still do it.  My idea was to make each card or modular the
>>> same size as a hard disk drive.  Then I could use an old sever chassis
>>> intended for hold SCSI disk drives to hold the cards and each card
>>> would have knobs and controls on one end and electrilcal connectors of
>>> the other.  Id use a standard scsi 50-pin ribon cable as a backplane
>>> for serial control (i2c) and power.  Today I'd use a SATA backplane as
>>> the form factor.  They can be pushed into a rack from the front
>>> Something like this :
>>> http://www.sansdigital.com/images/stories/products/HDDRACK5/hddrack5_1.jpg
>>>
>>> The mistakes made by the HPSDR people were that each card is far to
>>> complex.  So much so that few people could understand and contribute
>>> to the design and the cards are mostly un-build-able at the hobby
>>> level.  and also they did not select an off the self backplane and
>>> enclosure.  For most people sheet metal bending is not easy, So you'd
>>> want to specify a common and cheap off the shelf chassis type.
>>>
>>> So,... the first step is to list out the cards and write specs for
>>> each and design it so it is an expandable system    A Wiki works best
>>> for this, not an email list.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Alan Hochhalter 
>>> wrote:
>>>> One way to find out if people are interested enough to pledge some
>>>> money up
>>>> front is something like this project
>>>>
>>>> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzer
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>> On 12/16/2010 12:55 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>>> If you look in detail at the ups and downs of the TAPR SDR project,
>>>>> it's
>>>>> not
>>>>> one I would want to emulate.
>>>>>
>>>>> If we have a few hundred people interested with cash in hand, this
>>>>> might
>>>>> indeed make sense.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Chris Albertson
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:36 PM
>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source
>>>>> design by a group of HAMs
>>>>> http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html
>>>>> This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we
>>>>> are
>>>>> talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of
>>>>> surface mount parts.  TAPR is able to have these made and sell them
>>>>> fo

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

gt;>
>> I would break the project down into a set of sub-projects possably like this
>>
>> 1) The "core" counter, just counts, no pre scaler, no display or
>> reference oscillator. connects to computer with USB.
>> 2) A display and control panel to the instrument can be independent of
>> a computer.
>> 3) The "front end" pre-scaler or other kind of signal conditioning unit.
>> 4) A core frequency synthesizer, no display and so on like the core counters
>> 5) A A/C mains based power supply
>> 6) A battery based power supply to be used in place of or in addition to #4
>>
>> If these parts all worked together or at least used the same size PCB
>> people could get a chassis and start out simple and cheap and build up
>> a larger system over time.   I was going to build a radio this way
>> once, I may still do it.  My idea was to make each card or modular the
>> same size as a hard disk drive.  Then I could use an old sever chassis
>> intended for hold SCSI disk drives to hold the cards and each card
>> would have knobs and controls on one end and electrilcal connectors of
>> the other.  Id use a standard scsi 50-pin ribon cable as a backplane
>> for serial control (i2c) and power.  Today I'd use a SATA backplane as
>> the form factor.  They can be pushed into a rack from the front
>> Something like this :
>> http://www.sansdigital.com/images/stories/products/HDDRACK5/hddrack5_1.jpg
>>
>> The mistakes made by the HPSDR people were that each card is far to
>> complex.  So much so that few people could understand and contribute
>> to the design and the cards are mostly un-build-able at the hobby
>> level.  and also they did not select an off the self backplane and
>> enclosure.  For most people sheet metal bending is not easy, So you'd
>> want to specify a common and cheap off the shelf chassis type.
>>
>> So,... the first step is to list out the cards and write specs for
>> each and design it so it is an expandable system    A Wiki works best
>> for this, not an email list.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Alan Hochhalter  
>> wrote:
>>> One way to find out if people are interested enough to pledge some money up
>>> front is something like this project
>>>
>>> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzer
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>> On 12/16/2010 12:55 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> If you look in detail at the ups and downs of the TAPR SDR project, it's
>>>> not
>>>> one I would want to emulate.
>>>>
>>>> If we have a few hundred people interested with cash in hand, this might
>>>> indeed make sense.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of Chris Albertson
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:36 PM
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>>>
>>>> Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source
>>>> design by a group of HAMs
>>>> http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html
>>>> This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we are
>>>> talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of
>>>> surface mount parts.  TAPR is able to have these made and sell them
>>>> for $180.
>>>>
>>>> While this is a proof by example that such a project can be done I'd
>>>> not go this route.     Better I think to design a modular system where
>>>> the modules  have easy and well defined interfaces and where each  can
>>>> have whatever quality specs are desired.   There is a danger with
>>>> these group project that you run into a requirements "race" to the top
>>>> and end up with a hard to manufacture and maintain part.  I think the
>>>> HPSDR project did this
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
>>>>>
>>>>> All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
>>>>> has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
>>>>> you

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Bownes]

late.
>>>
>>> If we have a few hundred people interested with cash in hand, this might
>>> indeed make sense.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Chris Albertson
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:36 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>>
>>> Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source
>>> design by a group of HAMs
>>> http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html
>>> This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we are
>>> talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of
>>> surface mount parts.  TAPR is able to have these made and sell them
>>> for $180.
>>>
>>> While this is a proof by example that such a project can be done I'd
>>> not go this route.     Better I think to design a modular system where
>>> the modules  have easy and well defined interfaces and where each  can
>>> have whatever quality specs are desired.   There is a danger with
>>> these group project that you run into a requirements "race" to the top
>>> and end up with a hard to manufacture and maintain part.  I think the
>>> HPSDR project did this
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
>>>>
>>>> All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
>>>> has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
>>>> you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
>>>>
>>>> In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
>>>> spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
>>>> tools...
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
>>>> Behalf Of Don Latham
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>>>
>>>> OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
>>>> PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
>>>> We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
>>>> fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
>>>> all else should be straightforward.
>>>> I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
>>>> Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
>>>> Don
>>>>
>>>> J. L. Trantham, M. D.
>>>>>
>>>>> I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers
>>>>> but
>>>>> as
>>>>> far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
>>>>> 5370B.
>>>>>
>>>>> Joe
>>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
>>>>> Behalf Of Dave M
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
>>>>> To: TimeNuts
>>>>> Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
>>>>> decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
>>>>> However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
>>>>> have
>>>>> a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
>>>>> version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
>>>>> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
>>>>> recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
>>>>> good
>>>>> distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
>>>>> comparators.
>>>>> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

You can't do anything, not even guess at a price until you have a list
of requirements written down.  And they need to be detailed.

I would break the project down into a set of sub-projects possably like this

1) The "core" counter, just counts, no pre scaler, no display or
reference oscillator. connects to computer with USB.
2) A display and control panel to the instrument can be independent of
a computer.
3) The "front end" pre-scaler or other kind of signal conditioning unit.
4) A core frequency synthesizer, no display and so on like the core counters
5) A A/C mains based power supply
6) A battery based power supply to be used in place of or in addition to #4

If these parts all worked together or at least used the same size PCB
people could get a chassis and start out simple and cheap and build up
a larger system over time.   I was going to build a radio this way
once, I may still do it.  My idea was to make each card or modular the
same size as a hard disk drive.  Then I could use an old sever chassis
intended for hold SCSI disk drives to hold the cards and each card
would have knobs and controls on one end and electrilcal connectors of
the other.  Id use a standard scsi 50-pin ribon cable as a backplane
for serial control (i2c) and power.  Today I'd use a SATA backplane as
the form factor.  They can be pushed into a rack from the front
Something like this :
http://www.sansdigital.com/images/stories/products/HDDRACK5/hddrack5_1.jpg

The mistakes made by the HPSDR people were that each card is far to
complex.  So much so that few people could understand and contribute
to the design and the cards are mostly un-build-able at the hobby
level.  and also they did not select an off the self backplane and
enclosure.  For most people sheet metal bending is not easy, So you'd
want to specify a common and cheap off the shelf chassis type.

So,... the first step is to list out the cards and write specs for
each and design it so it is an expandable systemA Wiki works best
for this, not an email list.

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 5:15 PM, Alan Hochhalter  wrote:
> One way to find out if people are interested enough to pledge some money up
> front is something like this project
>
> http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzer
>
> Alan
>
> On 12/16/2010 12:55 PM, Bob Camp wrote:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> If you look in detail at the ups and downs of the TAPR SDR project, it's
>> not
>> one I would want to emulate.
>>
>> If we have a few hundred people interested with cash in hand, this might
>> indeed make sense.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Chris Albertson
>> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:36 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>
>> Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source
>> design by a group of HAMs
>> http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html
>> This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we are
>> talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of
>> surface mount parts.  TAPR is able to have these made and sell them
>> for $180.
>>
>> While this is a proof by example that such a project can be done I'd
>> not go this route.     Better I think to design a modular system where
>> the modules  have easy and well defined interfaces and where each  can
>> have whatever quality specs are desired.   There is a danger with
>> these group project that you run into a requirements "race" to the top
>> and end up with a hard to manufacture and maintain part.  I think the
>> HPSDR project did this
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
>>>
>>> All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
>>> has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
>>> you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
>>>
>>> In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
>>> spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
>>> tools...
>>>
>>> Bob
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
>>> Behalf Of Don Latham
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Alan Hochhalter]

One way to find out if people are interested enough to pledge some money 
up front is something like this project


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/bushing/openvizsla-open-source-usb-protocol-analyzer

Alan

On 12/16/2010 12:55 PM, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

If you look in detail at the ups and downs of the TAPR SDR project, it's not
one I would want to emulate.

If we have a few hundred people interested with cash in hand, this might
indeed make sense.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:36 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source
design by a group of HAMs
http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html
This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we are
talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of
surface mount parts.  TAPR is able to have these made and sell them
for $180.

While this is a proof by example that such a project can be done I'd
not go this route. Better I think to design a modular system where
the modules  have easy and well defined interfaces and where each  can
have whatever quality specs are desired.   There is a danger with
these group project that you run into a requirements "race" to the top
and end up with a hard to manufacture and maintain part.  I think the
HPSDR project did this

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:

Hi

Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.

All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.

In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
tools...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Don Latham
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
all else should be straightforward.
I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
Don

J. L. Trantham, M. D.

I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but
as
far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
5370B.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
Behalf Of Dave M
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
To: TimeNuts
Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
have
a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
good
distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
comparators.
What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in

the

grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget,

but

I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
equipment
is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
allows
me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have

experience

writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's

first

on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but

will

have to wait for a bit.

Thanks for advice,
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

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To 

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Bownes]

>From the sounds of it, I'd guess there are enough folks here that
could put a QFP or two on boards for those less sure of their talents.
That makes doing a run of a dozen or two of anything non bga wouldn't
be an issue. As Xtof pointed out, a controller (or a good eye) and an
old toaster oven can go a very long way. There are also 'breakout
boards' available for most QFPs that might make such a project easier.

The discussion has had me dig out the t'bolt, a few counters and a few
m of coax to do the old 'speed of light' demo. Now I want a newer,
better counter! :)

I have a stash of ~25 ATMega128's and the programmer I'd be willing to
toss at the project for example. Time, on the other hand could be
slightly harder to come by.

Bob


On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
> If you look in detail at the ups and downs of the TAPR SDR project, it's not
> one I would want to emulate.
>
> If we have a few hundred people interested with cash in hand, this might
> indeed make sense.
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Chris Albertson
> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:36 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source
> design by a group of HAMs
> http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html
> This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we are
> talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of
> surface mount parts.  TAPR is able to have these made and sell them
> for $180.
>
> While this is a proof by example that such a project can be done I'd
> not go this route.     Better I think to design a modular system where
> the modules  have easy and well defined interfaces and where each  can
> have whatever quality specs are desired.   There is a danger with
> these group project that you run into a requirements "race" to the top
> and end up with a hard to manufacture and maintain part.  I think the
> HPSDR project did this
>
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
>> Hi
>>
>> Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
>>
>> All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
>> has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
>> you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
>>
>> In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
>> spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
>> tools...
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
>> Behalf Of Don Latham
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>
>> OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
>> PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
>> We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
>> fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
>> all else should be straightforward.
>> I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
>> Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
>> Don
>>
>> J. L. Trantham, M. D.
>>> I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but
>>> as
>>> far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
>>> 5370B.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
>>> Behalf Of Dave M
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
>>> To: TimeNuts
>>> Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>>
>>> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
>>> decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
>>> However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
>>> have
>>> a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
>>> version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
>>> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
>>> recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I als

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

If you look in detail at the ups and downs of the TAPR SDR project, it's not
one I would want to emulate. 

If we have a few hundred people interested with cash in hand, this might
indeed make sense.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Chris Albertson
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:36 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source
design by a group of HAMs
http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html
This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we are
talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of
surface mount parts.  TAPR is able to have these made and sell them
for $180.

While this is a proof by example that such a project can be done I'd
not go this route. Better I think to design a modular system where
the modules  have easy and well defined interfaces and where each  can
have whatever quality specs are desired.   There is a danger with
these group project that you run into a requirements "race" to the top
and end up with a hard to manufacture and maintain part.  I think the
HPSDR project did this

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
> Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
>
> All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
> has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
> you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
>
> In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
> spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
> tools...
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Don Latham
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
> PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
> We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
> fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
> all else should be straightforward.
> I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
> Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
> Don
>
> J. L. Trantham, M. D.
>> I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but
>> as
>> far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
>> 5370B.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> -Original Message-----
>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
>> Behalf Of Dave M
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
>> To: TimeNuts
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>
>> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
>> decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
>> However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
>> have
>> a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
>> version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
>> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
>> recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
>> good
>> distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
>> comparators.
>> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
>> counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in
the
>> grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
>> the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget,
but
>> I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
>> equipment
>> is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
>> manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
>> I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
>> allows
>> me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have
experience
>> writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
>> controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
>> BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
>> I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's
first
>> on m

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[K. Szeker]

Hi Chris,

Yea, modularity is surely a good way_
I think the most problematic component is the FPGA-eventually memories for
that as a host "CPU", the rest can be relative similar, basically good
documented interfacing for some other PCBs...

Karesz

2010/12/16 Chris Albertson 

> Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source
> design by a group of HAMs
> http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html
> This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we are
> talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of
> surface mount parts.  TAPR is able to have these made and sell them
> for $180.
>
> While this is a proof by example that such a project can be done I'd
> not go this route. Better I think to design a modular system where
> the modules  have easy and well defined interfaces and where each  can
> have whatever quality specs are desired.   There is a danger with
> these group project that you run into a requirements "race" to the top
> and end up with a hard to manufacture and maintain part.  I think the
> HPSDR project did this
>
> On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> > Hi
> >
> > Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
> >
> > All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
> > has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
> > you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
> >
> > In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
> > spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
> > tools...
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> > Behalf Of Don Latham
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
> >
> > OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
> > PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
> > We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
> > fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
> > all else should be straightforward.
> > I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
> > Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
> > Don
> >
> > J. L. Trantham, M. D.
> >> I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers
> but
> >> as
> >> far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
> >> 5370B.
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
> >> Behalf Of Dave M
> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
> >> To: TimeNuts
> >> Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
> >>
> >> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
> >> decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
> >> However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
> >> have
> >> a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
> >> version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
> >> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
> >> recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
> >> good
> >> distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
> >> comparators.
> >> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost
> (<$400)
> >> counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in
> the
> >> grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members
> of
> >> the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget,
> but
> >> I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
> >> equipment
> >> is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
> >> manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
> >> I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
> >> allows
> >> me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have
> experience
> >> writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I&

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Chris Albertson]

Here is an example of doing something like this as a open source
design by a group of HAMs
http://www.tapr.org/kits_janus.html
This is a software defined radio but is close to the complexity we are
talking about here. It has a d/a converter and fpga and lots of
surface mount parts.  TAPR is able to have these made and sell them
for $180.

While this is a proof by example that such a project can be done I'd
not go this route. Better I think to design a modular system where
the modules  have easy and well defined interfaces and where each  can
have whatever quality specs are desired.   There is a danger with
these group project that you run into a requirements "race" to the top
and end up with a hard to manufacture and maintain part.  I think the
HPSDR project did this

On Thu, Dec 16, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Bob Camp  wrote:
> Hi
>
> Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
>
> All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
> has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
> you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
>
> In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
> spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
> tools...
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Don Latham
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
> PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
> We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
> fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
> all else should be straightforward.
> I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
> Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
> Don
>
> J. L. Trantham, M. D.
>> I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but
>> as
>> far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
>> 5370B.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
>> Behalf Of Dave M
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
>> To: TimeNuts
>> Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>>
>> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
>> decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
>> However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
>> have
>> a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
>> version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
>> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
>> recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
>> good
>> distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
>> comparators.
>> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
>> counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in the
>> grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
>> the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget, but
>> I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
>> equipment
>> is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
>> manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
>> I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
>> allows
>> me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have experience
>> writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
>> controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
>> BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
>> I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's first
>> on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but will
>> have to wait for a bit.
>>
>> Thanks for advice,
>> David
>> dgminala at mediacombb dot net
>>
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> -
>> No virus found in 

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Christophe Huygens]

LFCSP (QFN) with 0.5mm spacing is very easy to do... have done about a dozen
(AD9912) with nil failures using just solder paste, a $50PID controller 
and a $20
oven. refs all around on the web. You may get a bridge here and there 
but you can

wick them away ;-) easily.
QFP has leads so is even easier imho.
BGAs is another story - avoid at all costs in hobby designs.

Xtof,



On 16/12/10 20:59, Bob Camp wrote:

Hi

> From what I have seen of hand soldered 0.5 mm spaced / several hundred pin
packages - not very easy at all, even with pro gear and pro soldering
people. Based on the adverse reaction on the list to 14 pin 1 mm spaced
parts, I don't think there's much chance of a big QFP being popular.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of K. Szeker
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:36 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

Hi Bob,

If a 256 ball package is the solution for these FPGA, I would prefer it in
256 QFP-package version-if exists.
These will be solderable for the good "home-specialists", bat a BGA (even
with "only" 256 balls) is a real problem for home labs...

Karesz

2010/12/16 Bob Camp


Hi

Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.

All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.

In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
tools...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Don Latham
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
all else should be straightforward.
I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
Don

J. L. Trantham, M. D.

I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers

but

as
far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
5370B.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
Behalf Of Dave M
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
To: TimeNuts
Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
have
a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
good
distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
comparators.
What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost

(<$400)

counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in

the

grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members

of

the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget,

but

I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
equipment
is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
allows
me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have

experience

writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located

the

BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's

first

on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but

will

have to wait for a bit.

Thanks for advice,
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.
-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3317 - Release Date: 12/15/10


__

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

To get the boards down to a reasonable price, you need to have a project
with broad appeal. Spreading $2K setup charges across four boards isn't
going to work out very well.

The real answer is to find somebody with a good vision system on their
basement pick and place system. 

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of K. Szeker
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 3:16 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

Hi Bob,

Clear, itsn`t everybodys "thing", but you can belive me, that an BGA, even
with 1mm pitch too, is really nothing for a home lab...
Otherwise, I have in the past years hand soldered lot of 0.5mm pitch
connectors & QFP ICs too, its not the holyday job for me, bud with a litle
experience is doable.
Needs a good solder system with finest tip of less 0.4mm, lot of good
quality flux  & of course magnifying glasses...
My solderstation is over 10 years old, have both handpieces for that,  and
you can order it jet too_in more up to date version:
http://www.jbctools.com/english/tecinfo/tecinfo_Disc.php
For moderner multilayer boartds you must have a  similar heating system so &
so, but it has moderate prices to other "better" brands, which aren`t so
good regulated if you should work on multilayer

Karesz


2010/12/16 Bob Camp 

> Hi
>
> From what I have seen of hand soldered 0.5 mm spaced / several hundred pin
> packages - not very easy at all, even with pro gear and pro soldering
> people. Based on the adverse reaction on the list to 14 pin 1 mm spaced
> parts, I don't think there's much chance of a big QFP being popular.
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of K. Szeker
> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:36 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> If a 256 ball package is the solution for these FPGA, I would prefer it in
> 256 QFP-package version-if exists.
> These will be solderable for the good "home-specialists", bat a BGA (even
> with "only" 256 balls) is a real problem for home labs...
>
> Karesz
>
> 2010/12/16 Bob Camp 
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
> >
> > All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA
(Digikey
> > has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100
and
> > you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
> >
> > In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1
mm
> > spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
> > tools...
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> > Behalf Of Don Latham
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
> >
> > OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
> > PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
> > We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
> > fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
> > all else should be straightforward.
> > I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
> > Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
> > Don
> >
> > J. L. Trantham, M. D.
> > > I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers
> but
> > > as
> > > far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
> > > 5370B.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
> > > Behalf Of Dave M
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
> > > To: TimeNuts
> > > Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
> > >
> > > I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a
> pretty
> > > decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
> > > However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.
I
> > > have
> > > a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
> > > version), one with a 10544, the other wi

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[K. Szeker]

Hi Bob,

Clear, itsn`t everybodys "thing", but you can belive me, that an BGA, even
with 1mm pitch too, is really nothing for a home lab...
Otherwise, I have in the past years hand soldered lot of 0.5mm pitch
connectors & QFP ICs too, its not the holyday job for me, bud with a litle
experience is doable.
Needs a good solder system with finest tip of less 0.4mm, lot of good
quality flux  & of course magnifying glasses...
My solderstation is over 10 years old, have both handpieces for that,  and
you can order it jet too_in more up to date version:
http://www.jbctools.com/english/tecinfo/tecinfo_Disc.php
For moderner multilayer boartds you must have a  similar heating system so &
so, but it has moderate prices to other "better" brands, which aren`t so
good regulated if you should work on multilayer

Karesz


2010/12/16 Bob Camp 

> Hi
>
> From what I have seen of hand soldered 0.5 mm spaced / several hundred pin
> packages - not very easy at all, even with pro gear and pro soldering
> people. Based on the adverse reaction on the list to 14 pin 1 mm spaced
> parts, I don't think there's much chance of a big QFP being popular.
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of K. Szeker
> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:36 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> If a 256 ball package is the solution for these FPGA, I would prefer it in
> 256 QFP-package version-if exists.
> These will be solderable for the good "home-specialists", bat a BGA (even
> with "only" 256 balls) is a real problem for home labs...
>
> Karesz
>
> 2010/12/16 Bob Camp 
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
> >
> > All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
> > has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
> > you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
> >
> > In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
> > spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
> > tools...
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> > Behalf Of Don Latham
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
> >
> > OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
> > PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
> > We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
> > fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
> > all else should be straightforward.
> > I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
> > Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
> > Don
> >
> > J. L. Trantham, M. D.
> > > I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers
> but
> > > as
> > > far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
> > > 5370B.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
> > > Behalf Of Dave M
> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
> > > To: TimeNuts
> > > Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
> > >
> > > I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a
> pretty
> > > decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
> > > However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
> > > have
> > > a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
> > > version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
> > > I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
> > > recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
> > > good
> > > distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
> > > comparators.
> > > What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost
> (<$400)
> > > counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in
> > the
> > > grass" noise, jitt

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

>From what I have seen of hand soldered 0.5 mm spaced / several hundred pin
packages - not very easy at all, even with pro gear and pro soldering
people. Based on the adverse reaction on the list to 14 pin 1 mm spaced
parts, I don't think there's much chance of a big QFP being popular.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of K. Szeker
Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 2:36 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

Hi Bob,

If a 256 ball package is the solution for these FPGA, I would prefer it in
256 QFP-package version-if exists.
These will be solderable for the good "home-specialists", bat a BGA (even
with "only" 256 balls) is a real problem for home labs...

Karesz

2010/12/16 Bob Camp 

> Hi
>
> Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
>
> All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
> has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
> you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
>
> In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
> spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
> tools...
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Don Latham
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
> PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
> We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
> fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
> all else should be straightforward.
> I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
> Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
> Don
>
> J. L. Trantham, M. D.
> > I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers
but
> > as
> > far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
> > 5370B.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
> > Behalf Of Dave M
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
> > To: TimeNuts
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
> >
> > I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
> > decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
> > However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
> > have
> > a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
> > version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
> > I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
> > recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
> > good
> > distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
> > comparators.
> > What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost
(<$400)
> > counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in
> the
> > grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members
of
> > the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget,
> but
> > I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
> > equipment
> > is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
> > manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
> > I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
> > allows
> > me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have
> experience
> > writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
> > controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located
the
> > BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
> > I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's
> first
> > on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but
> will
> > have to wait for a bit.
> >
> > Thanks for advice,
> > David
> > dgminala at mediacombb dot net
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cg

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Robert LaJeunesse]

One can get a lot of FPGA capability in a 200+ pin PQFP package, so let's say 
that package is adequate. Then there is no need for a custom circuit board. 
SchmartBoard has a standard 240 pin PQFP board for $20 
(http://www.schmartboard.com/index.asp?page=products_qfp). They have BGA boards 
as well, but pricier. If one was to make the chosen FPGA look like a SPI 
peripheral then an FTDI chip could place it at the end of a USB cable. 


All it takes is time, money, and a sharp tipped soldering iron. Unfortunately 
I'm low on the first two and my soldering iron is broken...

Bob L.




From: Bob Camp 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
Sent: Thu, December 16, 2010 2:20:12 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

Hi

Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.

All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough. 

In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
tools...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Don Latham
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
all else should be straightforward.
I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
Don

J. L. Trantham, M. D.
> I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but
> as
> far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
> 5370B.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
> Behalf Of Dave M
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
> To: TimeNuts
> Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
> decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
> However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
> have
> a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
> version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
> recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
> good
> distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
> comparators.
> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
> counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in the
> grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
> the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget, but
> I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
> equipment
> is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
> manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
> I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
> allows
> me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have experience
> writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
> controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
> BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
> I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's first
> on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but will
> have to wait for a bit.
>
> Thanks for advice,
> David
> dgminala at mediacombb dot net
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3317 - Release Date: 12/15/10
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
"Neither the voice of

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[K. Szeker]

Hi Bob,

If a 256 ball package is the solution for these FPGA, I would prefer it in
256 QFP-package version-if exists.
These will be solderable for the good "home-specialists", bat a BGA (even
with "only" 256 balls) is a real problem for home labs...

Karesz

2010/12/16 Bob Camp 

> Hi
>
> Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.
>
> All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
> has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
> you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough.
>
> In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
> spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
> tools...
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
> Behalf Of Don Latham
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
> PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
> We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
> fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
> all else should be straightforward.
> I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
> Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
> Don
>
> J. L. Trantham, M. D.
> > I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but
> > as
> > far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
> > 5370B.
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
> > Behalf Of Dave M
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
> > To: TimeNuts
> > Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
> >
> > I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
> > decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
> > However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
> > have
> > a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
> > version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
> > I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
> > recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
> > good
> > distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
> > comparators.
> > What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
> > counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in
> the
> > grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
> > the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget,
> but
> > I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
> > equipment
> > is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
> > manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
> > I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
> > allows
> > me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have
> experience
> > writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
> > controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
> > BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
> > I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's
> first
> > on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but
> will
> > have to wait for a bit.
> >
> > Thanks for advice,
> > David
> > dgminala at mediacombb dot net
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > -
> > No virus found in this message.
> > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> > Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3317 - Release Date: 12/15/10
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
>
>
> --
> &quo

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Bob Camp]

Hi

Yes indeed, been there done that. Not very hard at all.

All you need is the six layer pc board (can be bought), the FPGA (Digikey
has them), a few of these and a couple of those. Spend less than $100 and
you are in business if the PC board volume is high enough. 

In this case the next step in the business is to solder the 256 ball 1 mm
spacing BGA package down on the pc board. Not so easy without the right
tools...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On
Behalf Of Don Latham
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 3:48 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
all else should be straightforward.
I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
Don

J. L. Trantham, M. D.
> I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but
> as
> far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
> 5370B.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
> Behalf Of Dave M
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
> To: TimeNuts
> Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
> decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
> However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
> have
> a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
> version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
> recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
> good
> distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
> comparators.
> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
> counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in the
> grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
> the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget, but
> I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
> equipment
> is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
> manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
> I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
> allows
> me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have experience
> writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
> controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
> BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
> I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's first
> on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but will
> have to wait for a bit.
>
> Thanks for advice,
> David
> dgminala at mediacombb dot net
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
> -
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3317 - Release Date: 12/15/10
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


___
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To unsubscribe, go to
https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.


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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Don Latham]

Dave: the Prologix interface can be used as an rs232 device. In that way,
a robot basic program can be written to control GPIB devices. I like Robot
Basic because it is has no connections to .net or any of the other
microsoft stuff, AFIK uses no Registry either.. I put the whole package in
a folder on my desktop and run it from there. Neat and tidy and completely
portable. In fact, the whole thing can run from a USB card. Also makes
.exe's.
I finally got motivated to buy a Prologix interface, got tired of fighting
with the very old Measurement and Computing card, it's just too old and
weird to use. I bought the network adapter instead of the USB, so any
computer on my little local network can be used. This is a new
adventure...
Good luck with your project.
Don

Dave M
>  I've seen several posts that mention the 5370 counter.  Certainly looks
> like a capable instrument.  I'll be on the lookout for one that is in
> reasonably good condition and WORKS.  I downloaded the NIST pub that you
> mentioned, and with the cold days and colder nights, I'll have lots of
> time
> to ponder it.
> Re: Don Latham's response - I've never seen Robot BASIC, but I'll look it
> up.  I assume that it's a GPIB controller application??
> Re Stan, W1LE's response - Thanks for the Prologix recommendation.  I'll
> look into it.
> And thanks to all the other responders... I really appreciate your taking
> time to offer your advice.
>
> Dave M
>
>> Hi Dave,
>>
>> On 12/15/2010 08:55 PM, Dave M wrote:
>>> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a
>>> pretty decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and
>>> experiments. However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long
>>> in the tooth.  I have a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial
>>> version; not the military version), one with a 10544, the other with
>>> a 10811 oscillator.
>>> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years,
>>> and recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also
>>> have a good distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke)
>>> frequency comparators.
>>> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost
>>> (<$400) counter that will get me on the way to performing some of
>>> the "down in the grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the
>>> more learned members of the group discuss.  I know that new
>>> equipment is far out of my budget, but I'm also aware that some of
>>> the older, now obsolete (also cheaper) equipment is quite capable of
>>> doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since manuals are
>>> much easier to find than most other brands.
>>> I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller
>>> that allows me to write software to control some of my instruments.
>>> I have experience writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A
>>> controller.  I've seen these controllers on the Bay and other online
>>> vendors, but I've not located the BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
>>> I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's
>>> first on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want
>>> list, but will have to wait for a bit.
>>
>> A HP5370A/B and a Prologix USB-GPIB interface seems like a popular
>> solution, and it should fit inside your budget more or less. There is
>> already software available (from John Miles for instance) that works
>> with that solution, but it should also allow yourself some programming
>> exercises.
>>
>> This will certainly get you started. There are several decades to go
>> down into the noise for the really good sources and reducing
>> measurement noise. It will be a fairly good solution for many decent
>> sources.
>>
>> Grab a copy of the NIST SP 1065 and ponder over it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> and follow the instructions there.
>


-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


___
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To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Jim Palfreyman]

I asked the same question of this list a number of years back, took a few
different routes and ended up with precisely what has been suggested here:

HP 5370B
Prologix GPIB-USB
And an HP 3325B function generator to round it all out nicely.

Also, if ever asked by the financial controller *why* you bought such a
5370B, a cool demo is to demonstrate the "speed of electricity" along a
metre or two of cable.

Jim Palfreyman

On 16 December 2010 16:54, Dave M  wrote:

> I've seen several posts that mention the 5370 counter.  Certainly looks
> like a capable instrument.  I'll be on the lookout for one that is in
> reasonably good condition and WORKS.  I downloaded the NIST pub that you
> mentioned, and with the cold days and colder nights, I'll have lots of time
> to ponder it.
> Re: Don Latham's response - I've never seen Robot BASIC, but I'll look it
> up.  I assume that it's a GPIB controller application??
> Re Stan, W1LE's response - Thanks for the Prologix recommendation.  I'll
> look into it.
> And thanks to all the other responders... I really appreciate your taking
> time to offer your advice.
>
> Dave M
>
>
>  Hi Dave,
>>
>> On 12/15/2010 08:55 PM, Dave M wrote:
>>
>>> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a
>>> pretty decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and
>>> experiments. However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long
>>> in the tooth.  I have a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial
>>> version; not the military version), one with a 10544, the other with
>>> a 10811 oscillator.
>>> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years,
>>> and recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also
>>> have a good distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke)
>>> frequency comparators.
>>> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost
>>> (<$400) counter that will get me on the way to performing some of
>>> the "down in the grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the
>>> more learned members of the group discuss.  I know that new
>>> equipment is far out of my budget, but I'm also aware that some of
>>> the older, now obsolete (also cheaper) equipment is quite capable of
>>> doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since manuals are
>>> much easier to find than most other brands.
>>> I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller
>>> that allows me to write software to control some of my instruments.
>>> I have experience writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A
>>> controller.  I've seen these controllers on the Bay and other online
>>> vendors, but I've not located the BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
>>> I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's
>>> first on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want
>>> list, but will have to wait for a bit.
>>>
>>
>> A HP5370A/B and a Prologix USB-GPIB interface seems like a popular
>> solution, and it should fit inside your budget more or less. There is
>> already software available (from John Miles for instance) that works
>> with that solution, but it should also allow yourself some programming
>> exercises.
>>
>> This will certainly get you started. There are several decades to go
>> down into the noise for the really good sources and reducing
>> measurement noise. It will be a fairly good solution for many decent
>> sources.
>>
>> Grab a copy of the NIST SP 1065 and ponder over it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Magnus
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Dave M]

I've seen several posts that mention the 5370 counter.  Certainly looks 
like a capable instrument.  I'll be on the lookout for one that is in 
reasonably good condition and WORKS.  I downloaded the NIST pub that you 
mentioned, and with the cold days and colder nights, I'll have lots of time 
to ponder it.
Re: Don Latham's response - I've never seen Robot BASIC, but I'll look it 
up.  I assume that it's a GPIB controller application??
Re Stan, W1LE's response - Thanks for the Prologix recommendation.  I'll 
look into it.
And thanks to all the other responders... I really appreciate your taking 
time to offer your advice.


Dave M


Hi Dave,

On 12/15/2010 08:55 PM, Dave M wrote:

I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a
pretty decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and
experiments. However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long
in the tooth.  I have a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial
version; not the military version), one with a 10544, the other with
a 10811 oscillator.
I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years,
and recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also
have a good distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke)
frequency comparators.
What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost
(<$400) counter that will get me on the way to performing some of
the "down in the grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the
more learned members of the group discuss.  I know that new
equipment is far out of my budget, but I'm also aware that some of
the older, now obsolete (also cheaper) equipment is quite capable of
doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since manuals are
much easier to find than most other brands.
I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller
that allows me to write software to control some of my instruments.
I have experience writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A
controller.  I've seen these controllers on the Bay and other online
vendors, but I've not located the BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's
first on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want
list, but will have to wait for a bit.


A HP5370A/B and a Prologix USB-GPIB interface seems like a popular
solution, and it should fit inside your budget more or less. There is
already software available (from John Miles for instance) that works
with that solution, but it should also allow yourself some programming
exercises.

This will certainly get you started. There are several decades to go
down into the noise for the really good sources and reducing
measurement noise. It will be a fairly good solution for many decent
sources.

Grab a copy of the NIST SP 1065 and ponder over it.

Cheers,
Magnus






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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Mark Spencer]

I just went thru a similar process and recently acquired a HP 5370B (my best 
prior counter was also a HP 5328.)  I pondered some of the other choices such 
as 
the HP 5334 but decided to jump ahead to the HP 5370B.   Also thanks again for 
the advice from members of the list and I found lost of usefull insight by 
searching the list archives.

So far I've been pleased with my choice.

I still like the HP 5328 as a general purpose bench counter.

Regards
Mark S



- Original Message 
From: Magnus Danielson 
To: time-nuts@febo.com
Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 1:14:45 PM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

Hi Dave,

On 12/15/2010 08:55 PM, Dave M wrote:
> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
> decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
> However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I have
> a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
> version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
> recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a good
> distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
> comparators.
> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
> counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in the
> grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
> the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget, but
> I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper) equipment
> is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
> manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
> I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that allows
> me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have experience
> writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
> controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
> BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
> I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's first
> on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but will
> have to wait for a bit.

A HP5370A/B and a Prologix USB-GPIB interface seems like a popular solution, 
and 
it should fit inside your budget more or less. There is already software 
available (from John Miles for instance) that works with that solution, but it 
should also allow yourself some programming exercises.

This will certainly get you started. There are several decades to go down into 
the noise for the really good sources and reducing measurement noise. It will 
be 
a fairly good solution for many decent sources.

Grab a copy of the NIST SP 1065 and ponder over it.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Dave,

On 12/15/2010 08:55 PM, Dave M wrote:

I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I have
a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a good
distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
comparators.
What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in the
grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget, but
I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper) equipment
is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that allows
me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have experience
writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's first
on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but will
have to wait for a bit.


A HP5370A/B and a Prologix USB-GPIB interface seems like a popular 
solution, and it should fit inside your budget more or less. There is 
already software available (from John Miles for instance) that works 
with that solution, but it should also allow yourself some programming 
exercises.


This will certainly get you started. There are several decades to go 
down into the noise for the really good sources and reducing measurement 
noise. It will be a fairly good solution for many decent sources.


Grab a copy of the NIST SP 1065 and ponder over it.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Stan, W1LE]

Hello Dave,

Others will have better suggestions for the time interval measurement 
equipment.
My suggestion is to consider the Prologix GPIB to USB adapter for ~150$ 
brand new stock.
I wasted some time with a NI controller and an older HP adapter before I 
got the Prologix.

I never looked back.

Stan,   W1LECape Cod



On 12/15/2010 2:55 PM, Dave M wrote:

I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that allows
me to write software to control some of my instruments.



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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Don Latham]

OK, time-nuts, here's the gauntlet. can't "we" generate a design for a
PC-based FPGA or chip setup that would be generally useful as a counter?
We've seen thorough discussions about trigger jitter, which IMHO is the
fundamental problem. And isn't the PIC2 Time base from 10 MHz standard,
all else should be straightforward.
I'm not a designer, just a messer-arounder, or I'd give it a shot. Robot
Basic is a nice PC software maybe.
Don

J. L. Trantham, M. D.
> I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but
> as
> far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
> 5370B.
>
> Joe
>
> -Original Message-
> From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
> Behalf Of Dave M
> Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
> To: TimeNuts
> Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation
>
> I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
> decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
> However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I
> have
> a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
> version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
> I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
> recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a
> good
> distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
> comparators.
> What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
> counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in the
> grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
> the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget, but
> I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper)
> equipment
> is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
> manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
> I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that
> allows
> me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have experience
> writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
> controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
> BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
> I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's first
> on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but will
> have to wait for a bit.
>
> Thanks for advice,
> David
> dgminala at mediacombb dot net
>
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> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3317 - Release Date: 12/15/10
>
>
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-- 
"Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are
as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind."
R. Bacon
"If you don't know what it is, don't poke it."
Ghost in the Shell


Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL
Six Mile Systems LLP
17850 Six Mile Road
POB 134
Huson, MT, 59846
VOX 406-626-4304
www.lightningforensics.com
www.sixmilesystems.com


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Re: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[J. L. Trantham, M. D.]

I suspect that this question will lead to a discussion of Dual Mixers but as
far as the counter question goes, I would recommend you consider an HP
5370B.

Joe

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on
Behalf Of Dave M
Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 1:55 PM
To: TimeNuts
Subject: [time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty
decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments.
However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I have
a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military
version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and
recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a good
distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency
comparators.
What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400)
counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in the
grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of
the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget, but
I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper) equipment
is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since
manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that allows
me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have experience
writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these
controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the
BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's first
on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but will
have to wait for a bit.

Thanks for advice,
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3317 - Release Date: 12/15/10


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[time-nuts] Frequency counter recommendation

[Dave M]

I'm a retired electronics tech and computer programmer.  I have a pretty 
decently equipped shop for almost all of my projects and experiments. 
However, my time and frequency equipment is a bit long in the tooth.  I have 
a couple old HP 5328A counters (commercial version; not the military 
version), one with a 10544, the other with a 10811 oscillator.
I have an HP Z3801A that has been operating well for several years, and 
recently acquired a TBolt to keep the counters in tune.  I also have a good 
distribution amp and  couple of old Montronics (Fluke) frequency 
comparators.
What I'm looking for now, is a recommendation for a good low-cost (<$400) 
counter that will get me on the way to performing some of the "down in the 
grass" noise, jitter and deviation tests that the more learned members of 
the group discuss.  I know that new equipment is far out of my budget, but 
I'm also aware that some of the older, now obsolete (also cheaper) equipment 
is quite capable of doing what I want to do. I prefer HP equipment since 
manuals are much easier to find than most other brands.
I'd also like recommendation for a good low-cost GPIB controller that allows 
me to write software to control some of my instruments.  I have experience 
writing software in BASIC on a Fluke 1722A controller.  I've seen these 
controllers on the Bay and other online vendors, but I've not located the 
BASIC discs for them.  Any advice?
I realize that a counter is not the only piece that I need, but it's first 
on my list.  Other, more applicable equipment is on my want list, but will 
have to wait for a bit.

Thanks for advice,
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

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