Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z Monday thru Thursday. Happy listening. Any reports would be appreciated and I will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape Mahy -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970. Bill, WA2DVU Cape May --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Correction on times for Mon - thurs - start 900 edst - 1300Z -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 7:05 AM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1300Z Monday thru Thursday. Happy listening. Any reports would be appreciated and I will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape Mahy -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970. Bill, WA2DVU Cape May --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
OK LORAN is on the air up in Boston. I had just turned off various equipment this morning. So starting it back up after testing it yesterday. Lots of large static crashes. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 7:04 AM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote: FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z Monday thru Thursday. Happy listening. Any reports would be appreciated and I will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape Mahy -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970. Bill, WA2DVU Cape May --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
What GRI is in use I'll fire up my austron as well Central NH location Content by Scott Typos by Siri On Jul 18, 2015, at 1:42 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Bill I will let you know what the Austrons say for signal level. Fact is they locked up fast. My FS700 is taking its time. Graham it will sound different as there are no competing stations on other GRIs. Thats the very first thing that hits you. Additionally its only 1 station. But that same station is sending the master and secondary delayed emission. Its simply not the same ole sound. But it still works very well for checking frequency. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote: Correction on times for Mon - thurs - start 900 edst - 1300Z -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 7:05 AM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1300Z Monday thru Thursday. Happy listening. Any reports would be appreciated and I will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape Mahy -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970. Bill, WA2DVU Cape May --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Hi Paul - how do you figure boston? The only station up is Wildwood, NJ -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of paul swed Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 1:15 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... OK LORAN is on the air up in Boston. I had just turned off various equipment this morning. So starting it back up after testing it yesterday. Lots of large static crashes. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 7:04 AM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote: FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z Monday thru Thursday. Happy listening. Any reports would be appreciated and I will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape Mahy -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970. Bill, WA2DVU Cape May --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Bill I will let you know what the Austrons say for signal level. Fact is they locked up fast. My FS700 is taking its time. Graham it will sound different as there are no competing stations on other GRIs. Thats the very first thing that hits you. Additionally its only 1 station. But that same station is sending the master and secondary delayed emission. Its simply not the same ole sound. But it still works very well for checking frequency. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 12:52 PM, billriches bill.ric...@verizon.net wrote: Correction on times for Mon - thurs - start 900 edst - 1300Z -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2015 7:05 AM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1300Z Monday thru Thursday. Happy listening. Any reports would be appreciated and I will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape Mahy -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970. Bill, WA2DVU Cape May --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
As expected, loud and clear near Ottawa Canada, approximately 380 nautical miles. It does sound different from my recollection of Loran. However, this is only one station transmitting where as before it would have been several at the same time with different GRI's. cheers, Graham ve3gtc On 2015-07-18 11:04, billriches wrote: FYI Wildwood eLoran will be fired up 1300Z Saturday (today) and 1900Z Monday thru Thursday. Happy listening. Any reports would be appreciated and I will pass them along to the engineer that is driving the train. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape Mahy -Original Message- From: billriches [mailto:bill.ric...@verizon.net] Sent: Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:04 PM To: 'billriches'; 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' Subject: RE: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... FYI GRI for Wildwood is 8970. Bill, WA2DVU Cape May --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Look at how well a couple of projects have gone: o privatize NIST NTP server operation - the NTP pool is recommended everywhere and good enough for most; separate providers supply high accuracy, precision, and stability timing for financial markets internationally; and GPS serves the rest o provide WWVB PM decoders - older precision timing equipment no longer works; but compatibility for RC Atomic clocks and watches was maintained; does not appear that there is any commercial interest in developing decoders; the new PM features might as well be dropped, or they could go back to the old AM format. See also the UT1 NTP service http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/ut1_ntp_description.cfm which states it will use IERS schedule A data, and may offer only the weekly official projections rather than the daily rapid predictions, which vary by 0.1ms; they also mention providing DUT1 and EOP data as a text string from a separate service. They may be looking at this for a UTC like backup if the ITU drops the leapsecond. But the US, EU, Russia, China, and Japan can each afford a GNSS constellation, with upgraded features as desired. If a country can not provide an adequate market for products, then they will have to either do without a backup, ormake do with what markets elsewhere demand - eLoran. OTOH the civil business focus of currently successful projects leads me to hope that the ITU will be told to leave UTC alone as a legal and political requirement for solar civil time, use TAI or GPS time if they want to keep to a uniform time scale, or come up with a better time scale of their own. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis On 2015-07-14 16:49, Bob Camp wrote: Not to be to much of a downer here but ….. Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun spots. Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the systems end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without those design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about billions of dollars and years of effort to hook them up …. If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may happen. I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US DOD these days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do something like this. Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope. On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any of my tax dollars back. :-) The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Loran-C had absolute accuracy to 500nS but repeatability much better, usually to about 20 meters position or 60 nS (if you mark the position of a buoy you can get back to it very closely). eLoran is a significant improvement and appears to be able to get to 8 meters absolute position or about 25 nS timing. Each transmitter would have its own cesium clock instead of the slaves relying on the master and propagation corrections would be cataloged and disseminated. David N1HAC On 7/15/15 12:29 PM, paul swed wrote: John I don't know if there was. But the timing receivers like the Austrons and SRS could really derive very accurate frequencies especially if you lived 60 miles from the transmitter. :-) Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:23 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote: Time-Nuts, Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran? 73's, John Westmoreland AJ6BC On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon dalec...@cfl.rr.com wrote: Folks, I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem.. Dale Cannon, KS4FA ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
In message 07538A701D6E4F8D804BD567DD794693@gnat, Alan Melia writes: I mean that a Loran-C signal designed as I proposed in a previous email would not do that, because it wouldn't have the groups and GRI-peridodicties which cause the splatter up and down the band. It just depends what you mean by that :-) I could lock to Lessay and Anthorn at frequencies in the 136kHz amateur band, using some S/N DSP software writen by Peter Matinez G3PLX. If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range. The reason Loran-C spreads crud is *only* the combinationa of the pulse-groups and the periodicity of the GRI. The pulses themselves are entirely contained inside the allocated frequency band. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Hi I think the WWVB PM stuff is relevant to Loran in the US. We have (pretty much) the most involved group of “customers” for that signal here on the list. As far as I have seen, the only project that has gone past the talk stage is the converter to drive the old(er) WWVB gear. Even with our level of interest, there are no working decoder projects out there. We may not be the main target audience, but we are the ones most likely to toss together a home built receiver. Dropping something like Loran into an already working system faces the same sort of barriers. If the system is working (now) - why bother? If it’s not working, do the minimum cost (time / risk / labor) fix for the issue. Explaining to the boss why the (say) 5X higher cost solution is the one you picked is not going to get very far. Giving the same explanation to grandmother (when her bill goes up) is going to be a bit harder still. I would not be surprised if the number of GPS equipped devices US exceeded the population by some signifiant factor. They get used. The total population of Loran gear that was in use (not in storage, not in a rack powered down) in the US in 2000 probably would fit in my garage. The market speaks….. Bob On Jul 15, 2015, at 10:33 PM, Brian Inglis brian.ing...@systematicsw.ab.ca wrote: Look at how well a couple of projects have gone: o privatize NIST NTP server operation - the NTP pool is recommended everywhere and good enough for most; separate providers supply high accuracy, precision, and stability timing for financial markets internationally; and GPS serves the rest o provide WWVB PM decoders - older precision timing equipment no longer works; but compatibility for RC Atomic clocks and watches was maintained; does not appear that there is any commercial interest in developing decoders; the new PM features might as well be dropped, or they could go back to the old AM format. See also the UT1 NTP service http://www.nist.gov/pml/div688/grp40/ut1_ntp_description.cfm which states it will use IERS schedule A data, and may offer only the weekly official projections rather than the daily rapid predictions, which vary by 0.1ms; they also mention providing DUT1 and EOP data as a text string from a separate service. They may be looking at this for a UTC like backup if the ITU drops the leapsecond. But the US, EU, Russia, China, and Japan can each afford a GNSS constellation, with upgraded features as desired. If a country can not provide an adequate market for products, then they will have to either do without a backup, ormake do with what markets elsewhere demand - eLoran. OTOH the civil business focus of currently successful projects leads me to hope that the ITU will be told to leave UTC alone as a legal and political requirement for solar civil time, use TAI or GPS time if they want to keep to a uniform time scale, or come up with a better time scale of their own. -- Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis On 2015-07-14 16:49, Bob Camp wrote: Not to be to much of a downer here but ….. Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun spots. Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the systems end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without those design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about billions of dollars and years of effort to hook them up …. If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may happen. I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US DOD these days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do something like this. Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope. On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any of my tax dollars back. :-) The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
No sigs yet - I am friends with the tech at Wildwood and also have a monitor (with squelch) on the fx. Will advise list when they fire up. 73, Bill, WA2DVU Cape May, NJ - Just a few miles away from Wildwood. -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of David McGaw Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 11:32 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... The word is that eLoran IS on in the US from Wildwood as of June 19. Has anyone noticed the signal? http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/loran-navigation-signal-back-on-and-better-than-before/article_21d19298-16d0-11e5-9a69-1343edc2e90b.html There is also a bill in the US House to reinstate Loran-C as eLoran. David N1HAC On 7/14/15 6:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Not to be to much of a downer here but ….. Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun spots. Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the systems end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without those design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about billions of dollars and years of effort to hook them up …. If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may happen. I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US DOD these days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do something like this. Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope. Bob On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Poul-Henning, The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any of my tax dollars back. :-) The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts. Regards Paul On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Station in Wildwood, California, and mid west are sort of intact. Bill, WA2DVU -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dale Cannon Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 1:18 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... Folks, I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem.. Dale Cannon, KS4FA ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
It just depends what you mean by that :-) I could lock to Lessay and Anthorn at frequencies in the 136kHz amateur band, using some S/N DSP software writen by Peter Matinez G3PLX. Alan G3NYK - Original Message - From: Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com; Bob Camp kb...@n1k.org Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2015 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... In message 3e8a4741-f565-4d2f-834f-62eca1ca1...@n1k.org, Bob Camp writes: If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range. The reason Loran-C spreads crud is *only* the combinationa of the pulse-groups and the periodicity of the GRI. The pulses themselves are entirely contained inside the allocated frequency band. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Folks, I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem.. Dale Cannon, KS4FA ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
John I don't know if there was. But the timing receivers like the Austrons and SRS could really derive very accurate frequencies especially if you lived 60 miles from the transmitter. :-) Regards Paul. WB8TSL On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 4:23 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. j...@westmorelandengineering.com wrote: Time-Nuts, Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran? 73's, John Westmoreland AJ6BC On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon dalec...@cfl.rr.com wrote: Folks, I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem.. Dale Cannon, KS4FA ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
In message cad2jfai8ykhzqyci++pr8cezmgwy+fh3edusgwfysde50ff...@mail.gmail.com , paul swed writes: I don't know if there was. But the timing receivers like the Austrons and SRS could really derive very accurate frequencies especially if you lived 60 miles from the transmitter. :-) Distance makes a lot of difference. Short is good, in particular if there is no major variable water (lakes or groundwater) between you and the transmitter. The only downside to really short distance is that the sky-wave comes crashing down in no time, so tracking on the 3rd zero-crossing is very important. I have an animation showing typical skywaves at around 200km distance from Sylt here: http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/animation2.gif When skywaves are bad, they are as high or higher amplitude as the grounwave and arrive earlier than usual, but I have not managed to capture that and the capture process I use is to resource intensive to run constantly. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Speaking of which, here is a typical Loran-C item the government is selling for virtually scrap prices. There are a couple of these big-boy feedthroughs in this sale alone: http://www.govliquidation.com/auction/view?id=9831977 -Doug W6DSR -Original Message- From: time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dale Cannon Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 10:18 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you... Folks, I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem.. Dale Cannon, KS4FA ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
In message 3e8a4741-f565-4d2f-834f-62eca1ca1...@n1k.org, Bob Camp writes: If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range. The reason Loran-C spreads crud is *only* the combinationa of the pulse-groups and the periodicity of the GRI. The pulses themselves are entirely contained inside the allocated frequency band. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Time-Nuts, Was better than 500 nS accuracy ever achieved with Loran? 73's, John Westmoreland AJ6BC On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:18 PM, Dale Cannon dalec...@cfl.rr.com wrote: Folks, I know that there is a longing for LORAN-C to return, but this weekend, I did a Google Maps flyover of each of the US LORAN-C stations (takes less than an hour). Almost all of the antennas are gone and there are no cars in the parking lots (except at Seneca which became an Army depot). This means that the equipment is probably gone, too. Or maybe this stuff will show up at auction or on E-Bay and that would solve the Austron receiver problem.. Dale Cannon, KS4FA ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
I did fire up the srs last week and did not here it? I will fire up a LF receiver and listen. Perhaps my preamp is sick. Regards Paul. On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 11:32 PM, David McGaw n1...@dartmouth.edu wrote: The word is that eLoran IS on in the US from Wildwood as of June 19. Has anyone noticed the signal? http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/loran-navigation-signal-back-on-and-better-than-before/article_21d19298-16d0-11e5-9a69-1343edc2e90b.html There is also a bill in the US House to reinstate Loran-C as eLoran. David N1HAC On 7/14/15 6:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Not to be to much of a downer here but ….. Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun spots. Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the systems end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without those design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about billions of dollars and years of effort to hook them up …. If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may happen. I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US DOD these days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do something like this. Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope. Bob On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Poul-Henning, The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any of my tax dollars back. :-) The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts. Regards Paul On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
In message 73568e39-9467-4192-aeb8-c9c14a2bb...@n1k.org, Bob Camp writes: I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US DOD these days. *cough* F-35 *cough* B61-mod12 *cough* -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Hi, There is indeed investigations going on about what the cost of receivers would be etc. A benefit of Loran-C is that relative jamming/spoofing resistance can be had without the need of opening up for keyed receivers. This helps for non-military and non-government operations. Now, there is tamper-proof GPS receivers that can use the keyed signal for increased signal stability, but I wonder to what degree they are deployed. Then, naturally the military can have use for these receivers. Work is in progress, but we do not yet know the outcome, but they do ask about what it would cost and what performance one would get. It will be interesting to follow. While LORAN-C is sold as jamming/spooing resistant, that is based on the assumption that nobody would raise a 200 m tower undetected. True, but we now know that it was done for that purpose. The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. Cheers, Magnus On 07/14/2015 04:56 AM, skipp Isaham via time-nuts wrote: Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the demise of Loran? I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning. GPS is not jam proof and that seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some locations have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has been issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to make a comeback. cheers, skipp ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Skip It certainly keeps trying to return. It will not be the navigation system formerly known as Loran C (Wasn't that also some singer?) it will be eLoran. Most eLORAN systems add an additional pulse for data. They stick somewhat to the old format to avoid possible interference with operating systems in Europe. But it seems in general LORAN is one big question. I know we shut down LORAN C to save $36M/year. A drop in the bucket. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 10:56 PM, skipp Isaham via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the demise of Loran? I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning. GPS is not jam proof and that seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some locations have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has been issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to make a comeback. cheers, skipp ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Poul-Henning, On 07/14/2015 06:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. True. I would look at PRN-codes if I where to do such a system today. What may be an issue is the amount of sidebands allowed, as it would put limits on the chipping-rate of PRN-codes or for that matter other forms of modulations. I think another approach was being considered for the LORAN-rebuild in the US. I don't remember from the top of my head when it was discussed or link to the article. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
In message 55a53a67.7010...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. True. I would look at PRN-codes if I where to do such a system today. What may be an issue is the amount of sidebands allowed, as it would put limits on the chipping-rate of PRN-codes or for that matter other forms of modulations. I would probably stay with the pulses, they have some very desirable properties in terms of transmitter and antenna design and bandwidth. But I would get rid of the current spread-spectrum design and do something like this: We pick a basic period as a prime number of microseconds, for instance 262139µs (just below 2^18) and we define an epoch for this. This means that all transmitters are autonomous based on a local TAI reference. Each transmitter emits an individual PRN-spaced pattern of 32 pulses in the basic period. The exact pulse patterns for a transmitter will be picked based on vectors to neighboring transmitters. The pulse polarity is plus, minus, data where every 3rd pulse is used to implement a serial data-channel which communicates chain-configuration data, TAI/UTC info with some bits left over for civil defence warnings. Using one global GRI means that there no longer any chains. This eliminates a host of failure-modes on the transmitter side and the receivers will automatically be all-in-view. With all transmitters autonomous and independent, RAIM is possible. The basic period is relatively long to attenuate any CW interference for time/frequency purposes but the higher pulse-per-period count compensates this for location purposes. Making the pulse-pattern per transmitter and PRN-like eliminates all the shadow effects (baseline extension etc) and makes for quick (re)acquisition based on pattern-matching. The PRN pattern will also dramatically attenuate the loran-lines which polluted nearby VLF and LF bands. The +/-/data pulse polarity makes it possible to detect the start of the period by tracking where in the potential basic period pulses do not change polarity: 3 doesn't divide 32, so there is a + - + - sequence from all transmitters around the start of the period. But then again, I have spent far more of my life on Loran-C than can ever be justified :-) -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Poul-Henning, The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any of my tax dollars back. :-) The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts. Regards Paul On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Hi Not to be to much of a downer here but ….. Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun spots. Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the systems end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without those design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about billions of dollars and years of effort to hook them up …. If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may happen. I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US DOD these days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do something like this. Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope. Bob On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Poul-Henning, The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any of my tax dollars back. :-) The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts. Regards Paul On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
In message cad2jfah+spv23kgizgmnjdh9ea1wksogn03y0icje2edpzt...@mail.gmail.com , paul swed writes: The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any of my tax dollars back. :-) Considering how much better performance you can get with a trivial ARM CPU on a sub $100 development board, I as a time-nut find that an incredibly silly argument... -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Hi On Jul 14, 2015, at 12:35 PM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: Poul-Henning, On 07/14/2015 06:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. True. I would look at PRN-codes if I where to do such a system today. What may be an issue is the amount of sidebands allowed, as it would put limits on the chipping-rate of PRN-codes or for that matter other forms of modulations. If you look at the spectral width of the existing Loran-C (or similar) waveform, it’s a massive thing. You would have a hard time coming up with something that spreads more crud around the VLF range. Bob I think another approach was being considered for the LORAN-rebuild in the US. I don't remember from the top of my head when it was discussed or link to the article. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
The word is that eLoran IS on in the US from Wildwood as of June 19. Has anyone noticed the signal? http://www.pressofatlanticcity.com/news/loran-navigation-signal-back-on-and-better-than-before/article_21d19298-16d0-11e5-9a69-1343edc2e90b.html There is also a bill in the US House to reinstate Loran-C as eLoran. David N1HAC On 7/14/15 6:49 PM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi Not to be to much of a downer here but ….. Loran for timing and an “Eastern WWVB” are two projects that seem to each have a life of their own. They seem to come up on some sort of cycle related to sun spots. Both have zero (or possibly less than that) percent mind share among those who would need to implement them into systems. Since there is major cost on the systems end, it would take “mandatory use” legislation to get them designed in. Without those design in’s, *having* a backup system is pretty useless. You are talking about billions of dollars and years of effort to hook them up …. If you are talking about “infinite budget” military systems, some of that may happen. I notice in the papers that “infinite budget” does not seem to apply to the US DOD these days. For commercial systems, nobody will significantly cut into profits to do something like this. Should they do this - sure. Will they do it - nope. Bob On Jul 14, 2015, at 4:49 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Poul-Henning, The reason to stay with the LORAN C style pulses is very very simple. It allows our time-nuts Austrons and SRS to work. Its the only way I get any of my tax dollars back. :-) The good news is no official government person reads time-nuts. Regards Paul On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 12:16 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp p...@phk.freebsd.dk wrote: In message 55a4ac81.1030...@rubidium.dyndns.org, Magnus Danielson writes: The safety is relative, in that it takes quite a bit of more infrastructure compared to the jamming of GPS, and that lies in the wavelength of the signal than anything else. If the goal is a reliable backup for GPS, there are smarter ways to use the 100kHz band than Loran-C pulses, and there really isn't much reason to stay compatible with Loran-C receivers. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
How much money was saved by not sending NIST time codes over GOES satellites? I'm sure that was much less than $36M/year to continue, probably not even 1% of that. I'm strongly for high diversity in time distribution. GPS is great, but putting all our eggs in the GPS basket seems very unwise. At the moment I have GPS, CHU, WWV, and WWVB, but more diversity would be better, and I hope I can add some variant of LORAN back to the list soon. Tim N3QE On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 9:07 AM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Skip It certainly keeps trying to return. It will not be the navigation system formerly known as Loran C (Wasn't that also some singer?) it will be eLoran. Most eLORAN systems add an additional pulse for data. They stick somewhat to the old format to avoid possible interference with operating systems in Europe. But it seems in general LORAN is one big question. I know we shut down LORAN C to save $36M/year. A drop in the bucket. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 10:56 PM, skipp Isaham via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the demise of Loran? I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning. GPS is not jam proof and that seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some locations have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has been issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to make a comeback. cheers, skipp ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Loran C returning to a station near you...
Does anyone know of any other genuinely useful purpose to which the Austron 2100F, SRS FS700, etc receivers can be put in the US since the demise of Loran? I've heard Loran C in some form will be returning. GPS is not jam proof and that seems to have caught the attention of our government. Although some locations have already been dismantled to some large degree, a hold that tiger has been issued as the wheels have started to turn backwards and Loran C starts to make a comeback. cheers, skipp ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
