Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
I bought a stereo microscope some days before and I agree with Bob. I keep building non-RF projects the classical way (through hole) but if it comes to radio frequency I prefer SMD since high frequency is easier to handle. Can you tinker with the idea of buying a stereo microscope? It's absolute fun to easily solder those miniature parts! Volker - DF9PL Am 08.02.2013 01:15, schrieb Robert Darlington: On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Don Lathamd...@montana.com wrote: through hole forever :-) Don of the old hands and blurred vision :-) ewkehren I grew out of thru-hole about 10 years ago. My nearly 40 year old eyes have trouble reading the numbers on 0603 parts for the past few years, but it's amazingly easy under a stereo microscope. Much faster to stuff boards with surface mount parts since I don't need to keep flipping them over and cutting leads. Even folks with very shaky hands can solder up tiny surface mount parts. The brain is an amazing PID controller. Using a microscope at 30x means your hands shake at about 1/30th of what they did before. -Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
Actually, yes. I also have two USB microscopes, and even some rohs solder and stuff. I just find it's easier to find thru hole stuff when it falls on the floor. Everything wants to go to the lowest potential energy... Don Volker Esper I bought a stereo microscope some days before and I agree with Bob. I keep building non-RF projects the classical way (through hole) but if it comes to radio frequency I prefer SMD since high frequency is easier to handle. Can you tinker with the idea of buying a stereo microscope? It's absolute fun to easily solder those miniature parts! Volker - DF9PL Am 08.02.2013 01:15, schrieb Robert Darlington: On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Don Lathamd...@montana.com wrote: through hole forever :-) Don of the old hands and blurred vision :-) ewkehren I grew out of thru-hole about 10 years ago. My nearly 40 year old eyes have trouble reading the numbers on 0603 parts for the past few years, but it's amazingly easy under a stereo microscope. Much faster to stuff boards with surface mount parts since I don't need to keep flipping them over and cutting leads. Even folks with very shaky hands can solder up tiny surface mount parts. The brain is an amazing PID controller. Using a microscope at 30x means your hands shake at about 1/30th of what they did before. -Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
On Fri, Feb 8, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: Actually, yes. I also have two USB microscopes, and even some rohs solder and stuff. I just find it's easier to find thru hole stuff when it falls on the floor. Everything wants to go to the lowest potential energy... Don Don, I can't argue with that. Projects cost me 10% more in parts because I know I'll drop a few and they're just cheap enough (usually) that they're not even worth looking for. -Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
We do 0603 and 0402 with IC's at .5mm lead spacing all day long. Under stereo zoom, it's not an issue. We have 50+ year old techs who build this stuff all day... We have one of these on every bench. At around $700 new for the 3x to 90x Zoom it's not bad. But may be prohibitive for home use. I can highly recommend adding a .5x bottom lens, as this increases your working distance by a factor of two... http://truevisionmicroscopes.com/category/products/boom-mounted-normal-microscope/ Once you go surface mount, you'll never want to do through hole again! Dan On 2/8/2013 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 4 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:45:21 +0100 From: Volker Esperail...@t-online.de To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD Message-ID:5114c931.2070...@t-online.de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I bought a stereo microscope some days before and I agree with Bob. I keep building non-RF projects the classical way (through hole) but if it comes to radio frequency I prefer SMD since high frequency is easier to handle. Can you tinker with the idea of buying a stereo microscope? It's absolute fun to easily solder those miniature parts! Volker - DF9PL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
Check to see if there are any tech auctions in your area. Picked up a nice scope with stand and illuminator for $90 in the Seattle area. Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dan Kemppainen Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 12:25 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD We do 0603 and 0402 with IC's at .5mm lead spacing all day long. Under stereo zoom, it's not an issue. We have 50+ year old techs who build this stuff all day... We have one of these on every bench. At around $700 new for the 3x to 90x Zoom it's not bad. But may be prohibitive for home use. I can highly recommend adding a .5x bottom lens, as this increases your working distance by a factor of two... http://truevisionmicroscopes.com/category/products/boom-mounte d-normal-microscope/ Once you go surface mount, you'll never want to do through hole again! Dan On 2/8/2013 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 4 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:45:21 +0100 From: Volker Esperail...@t-online.de To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD Message-ID:5114c931.2070...@t-online.de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I bought a stereo microscope some days before and I agree with Bob. I keep building non-RF projects the classical way (through hole) but if it comes to radio frequency I prefer SMD since high frequency is easier to handle. Can you tinker with the idea of buying a stereo microscope? It's absolute fun to easily solder those miniature parts! Volker - DF9PL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
Used is definitely the way to go. My stereo zoom scope was $15! On Feb 8, 2013, at 16:12, DaveH i...@blackmountainforge.com wrote: Check to see if there are any tech auctions in your area. Picked up a nice scope with stand and illuminator for $90 in the Seattle area. Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dan Kemppainen Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 12:25 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD We do 0603 and 0402 with IC's at .5mm lead spacing all day long. Under stereo zoom, it's not an issue. We have 50+ year old techs who build this stuff all day... We have one of these on every bench. At around $700 new for the 3x to 90x Zoom it's not bad. But may be prohibitive for home use. I can highly recommend adding a .5x bottom lens, as this increases your working distance by a factor of two... http://truevisionmicroscopes.com/category/products/boom-mounte d-normal-microscope/ Once you go surface mount, you'll never want to do through hole again! Dan On 2/8/2013 12:00 PM, time-nuts-requ...@febo.com wrote: Message: 4 Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:45:21 +0100 From: Volker Esperail...@t-online.de To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD Message-ID:5114c931.2070...@t-online.de Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I bought a stereo microscope some days before and I agree with Bob. I keep building non-RF projects the classical way (through hole) but if it comes to radio frequency I prefer SMD since high frequency is easier to handle. Can you tinker with the idea of buying a stereo microscope? It's absolute fun to easily solder those miniature parts! Volker - DF9PL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
I use a set of surgical loupes. For smd work you need 3.5 - 4.0x, but the major problem with cheap ones is a very small depth of field. I have a sec of Galilaen loupes marked 3.5x, but are really 2x. They're good for general work. Once you get into 4x, you're into Keplarian loupes. I have a set of 4.0x with about a 1cm depth of field that were pretty cheap; I'm looking to change those out. The loupes are nice; you get binocular vision and 16-18 inch working distance. Paul Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2013 13:12:27 -0800 From: DaveH i...@blackmountainforge.com To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD Message-ID: CA2D1E86C3EB4F76ACE9565FD29258A0@photo Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Check to see if there are any tech auctions in your area. Picked up a nice scope with stand and illuminator for $90 in the Seattle area. Dave -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Dan Kemppainen Sent: Friday, February 08, 2013 12:25 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD We do 0603 and 0402 with IC's at .5mm lead spacing all day long. Under stereo zoom, it's not an issue. We have 50+ year old techs who build this stuff all day... -- Paul Amaranth, GCIH | Rochester MI, USA Aurora Group, Inc. | Security, Systems Software p...@auroragrp.com | Unix Windows ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
Dear Bert, Thank you for the update! And a peek into the kitchen ;-) I guess the SMD board you mention is assembled. But I think there are people who are interested in bare boards as well Good luck and best regards, Jeroen On 02/06/2013 05:01 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The delay is mainly do to the fact that the promise to do the drawings did not materialize. The counters are done and tests on variations of the D/M's are ongoing since the noise floor is not the counter but the D/M. Bill Riley's boards are out there and it would be nice to get some feedback on test results, also I have explored the possibility of some one manufacturing the board. A time nut is in the business and will be able to supply the SMD version of the board for $160 plus shipping if a minimum volume of 20 get ordered. As to D/M four options will be available starting with Bill's PCB. I have 4 kits of my D/M and counters available and will work with some that have the proper OCXO's and willingness to test with Time Lab since tests with Stable 32 and Ulrich's A/V software is ongoing. If interested please contact me off list Recent tests by Corby has convinced me that with the four channel counter not only cross correlation but also three corner hat is doable with one dual mixer. The offset oscillator has to be also of high quality. Some of the delays are due to visitors over the holidays but also the fact that the D/M project is not the only one. Of equal or more importance is a home standard that can get close to a Maser using GPS Rb and the best OCXO in the house.On the D/M the only work for us is packaging and display PIC programming. Latest set of boards were ordered yesterday. The display is a nice feature but not necessary. I hope we will have the drawings in about 10 days. Bert Kehren In a message dated 2/6/2013 4:15:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, j.bastemei...@tudelft.nl writes: Dear all, ! Did I miss something, or are we all waiting for more info to be published on this system? I checked KO4BB site, but I couldn't find any new info on this project. An update would be appreciated! Note: This message is written with a positive intent, not as a complaint! Thank you, best regards, Jeroen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
You can buy today the Bill Riley board and there are few boards of a change with larger SMD also today available. Once we release a final S M D version any one that wants to buy only a board that ia an option, the same will also be available in through hole. Bert Sent from Samsung tabletJeroen Bastemeijer j.bastemei...@tudelft.nl wrote:Dear Bert, Thank you for the update! And a peek into the kitchen ;-) I guess the SMD board you mention is assembled. But I think there are people who are interested in bare boards as well Good luck and best regards, Jeroen On 02/06/2013 05:01 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The delay is mainly do to the fact that the promise to do the drawings did not materialize. The counters are done and tests on variations of the D/M's are ongoing since the noise floor is not the counter but the D/M. Bill Riley's boards are out there and it would be nice to get some feedback on test results, also I have explored the possibility of some one manufacturing the board. A time nut is in the business and will be able to supply the SMD version of the board for $160 plus shipping if a minimum volume of 20 get ordered. As to D/M four options will be available starting with Bill's PCB. I have 4 kits of my D/M and counters available and will work with some that have the proper OCXO's and willingness to test with Time Lab since tests with Stable 32 and Ulrich's A/V software is ongoing. If interested please contact me off list Recent tests by Corby has convinced me that with the four channel counter not only cross correlation but also three corner hat is doable with one dual mixer. The offset oscillator has to be also of high quality. Some of the delays are due to visitors over the holidays but also the fact that the D/M project is not the only one. Of equal or more importance is a home standard that can get close to a Maser using GPS Rb and the best OCXO in the house.On the D/M the only work for us is packaging and display PIC programming. Latest set of boards were ordered yesterday. The display is a nice feature but not necessary. I hope we will have the drawings in about 10 days. Bert Kehren In a message dated 2/6/2013 4:15:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, j.bastemei...@tudelft.nl writes: Dear all, ! Did I miss something, or are we all waiting for more info to be published on this system? I checked KO4BB site, but I couldn't find any new info on this project. An update would be appreciated! Note: This message is written with a positive intent, not as a complaint! Thank you, best regards, Jeroen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
through hole forever :-) Don of the old hands and blurred vision :-) ewkehren You can buy today the Bill Riley board and there are few boards of a change with larger SMD also today available. Once we release a final S M D version any one that wants to buy only a board that ia an option, the same will also be available in through hole. Bert Sent from Samsung tabletJeroen Bastemeijer j.bastemei...@tudelft.nl wrote:Dear Bert, Thank you for the update! And a peek into the kitchen ;-) I guess the SMD board you mention is assembled. But I think there are people who are interested in bare boards as well Good luck and best regards, Jeroen On 02/06/2013 05:01 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The delay is mainly do to the fact that the promise to do the drawings did not materialize. The counters are done and tests on variations of the D/M's are ongoing since the noise floor is not the counter but the D/M. Bill Riley's boards are out there and it would be nice to get some feedback   on test results, also I have explored the possibility of some one manufacturing the board. A time nut is in the business and will be able to supply the SMD version of the board for $160 plus shipping if a minimum volume of 20 get ordered. As to D/M four options will be available starting with Bill's PCB. I have 4 kits of my D/M and counters available and will work with some that   have the proper OCXO's and willingness to test with Time Lab since tests with Stable 32 and Ulrich's A/V software is ongoing. If interested please contact me off list Recent tests by Corby has convinced me that with the four channel counter not only cross correlation but also three corner hat is doable with one dual mixer. The offset oscillator has to be also of high quality. Some of the delays are due to visitors over the holidays but also the fact that the D/M project is not the only one. Of equal or more importance is a   home standard that can get close to a Maser using GPS Rb and the best OCXO   in the house.On the D/M the only work for us is packaging and display PIC programming. Latest set of boards were ordered yesterday. The display is a nice feature but not necessary. I hope we will have the drawings in about 10 days. Bert Kehren     In a message dated 2/6/2013 4:15:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, j.bastemei...@tudelft.nl writes: Dear all, ! Did I miss something, or are we all waiting for more info to be published on this system? I checked KO4BB site, but I couldn't find any new info on this project. An update would be appreciated! Note: This message is written with a positive intent, not as a complaint! Thank you, best regards, Jeroen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: through hole forever :-) Don of the old hands and blurred vision :-) ewkehren I grew out of thru-hole about 10 years ago. My nearly 40 year old eyes have trouble reading the numbers on 0603 parts for the past few years, but it's amazingly easy under a stereo microscope. Much faster to stuff boards with surface mount parts since I don't need to keep flipping them over and cutting leads. Even folks with very shaky hands can solder up tiny surface mount parts. The brain is an amazing PID controller. Using a microscope at 30x means your hands shake at about 1/30th of what they did before. -Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
Dear all, ! Did I miss something, or are we all waiting for more info to be published on this system? I checked KO4BB site, but I couldn't find any new info on this project. An update would be appreciated! Note: This message is written with a positive intent, not as a complaint! Thank you, best regards, Jeroen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
The delay is mainly do to the fact that the promise to do the drawings did not materialize. The counters are done and tests on variations of the D/M's are ongoing since the noise floor is not the counter but the D/M. Bill Riley's boards are out there and it would be nice to get some feedback on test results, also I have explored the possibility of some one manufacturing the board. A time nut is in the business and will be able to supply the SMD version of the board for $160 plus shipping if a minimum volume of 20 get ordered. As to D/M four options will be available starting with Bill's PCB. I have 4 kits of my D/M and counters available and will work with some that have the proper OCXO's and willingness to test with Time Lab since tests with Stable 32 and Ulrich's A/V software is ongoing. If interested please contact me off list Recent tests by Corby has convinced me that with the four channel counter not only cross correlation but also three corner hat is doable with one dual mixer. The offset oscillator has to be also of high quality. Some of the delays are due to visitors over the holidays but also the fact that the D/M project is not the only one. Of equal or more importance is a home standard that can get close to a Maser using GPS Rb and the best OCXO in the house.On the D/M the only work for us is packaging and display PIC programming. Latest set of boards were ordered yesterday. The display is a nice feature but not necessary. I hope we will have the drawings in about 10 days. Bert Kehren In a message dated 2/6/2013 4:15:33 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, j.bastemei...@tudelft.nl writes: Dear all, ! Did I miss something, or are we all waiting for more info to be published on this system? I checked KO4BB site, but I couldn't find any new info on this project. An update would be appreciated! Note: This message is written with a positive intent, not as a complaint! Thank you, best regards, Jeroen ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work please hold off, 4 channel pic...
Rex, let me check status and I will get back with you by Thursday. I am presently finalizing a detailed outline of the total package. Bert In a message dated 12/10/2012 7:23:43 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, r...@sonic.net writes: Bert, I have been waiting for more details to become available. Thanks for the update. Not sure exactly what this means: but I have to depend on volunteers to do the drawings and they have to make their time available when convenient. Depending on if the input is in some kind of standard, or a transmittable sketch format, and what the desired output is, maybe I could help. Contact me if you think another cook could possibly help the broth. -Rex in San Jose, CA On 12/9/2012 3:20 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: We have a choice of two dual mixers, my copy of the original NBS with minor changes and Bill Riley's unit. Comparison tests are ongoing to pick the best. If Bill's shows better results I plan on laying one out using leaded components. 2 channel and 4 channel counters are completed and are being used for testing. Corby has done some more tests plotting single channel using the period mode. Great results. Can use phase or period. A documentation package is being prepared to be placed on Didier's site, but I have to depend on volunteers to do the drawings and they have to make their time available when convenient. Juerg is continuing his work on programming a PIC for LCD display but that will only be an added feature one can use the counters direct with a PC and as you may have noticed Corby sold his SR 620. Bert Kehren In a message dated 12/8/2012 5:50:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, w1...@earthlink.net writes: What is the status of this project ? I may have missed a few e-mails. Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work please hold off, 4 channel pic...
Bert, I have been waiting for more details to become available. Thanks for the update. Not sure exactly what this means: but I have to depend on volunteers to do the drawings and they have to make their time available when convenient. Depending on if the input is in some kind of standard, or a transmittable sketch format, and what the desired output is, maybe I could help. Contact me if you think another cook could possibly help the broth. -Rex in San Jose, CA On 12/9/2012 3:20 AM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: We have a choice of two dual mixers, my copy of the original NBS with minor changes and Bill Riley's unit. Comparison tests are ongoing to pick the best. If Bill's shows better results I plan on laying one out using leaded components. 2 channel and 4 channel counters are completed and are being used for testing. Corby has done some more tests plotting single channel using the period mode. Great results. Can use phase or period. A documentation package is being prepared to be placed on Didier's site, but I have to depend on volunteers to do the drawings and they have to make their time available when convenient. Juerg is continuing his work on programming a PIC for LCD display but that will only be an added feature one can use the counters direct with a PC and as you may have noticed Corby sold his SR 620. Bert Kehren In a message dated 12/8/2012 5:50:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, w1...@earthlink.net writes: What is the status of this project ? I may have missed a few e-mails. Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work please hold off, 4 channel pic...
We have a choice of two dual mixers, my copy of the original NBS with minor changes and Bill Riley's unit. Comparison tests are ongoing to pick the best. If Bill's shows better results I plan on laying one out using leaded components. 2 channel and 4 channel counters are completed and are being used for testing. Corby has done some more tests plotting single channel using the period mode. Great results. Can use phase or period. A documentation package is being prepared to be placed on Didier's site, but I have to depend on volunteers to do the drawings and they have to make their time available when convenient. Juerg is continuing his work on programming a PIC for LCD display but that will only be an added feature one can use the counters direct with a PC and as you may have noticed Corby sold his SR 620. Bert Kehren In a message dated 12/8/2012 5:50:35 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, w1...@earthlink.net writes: What is the status of this project ? I may have missed a few e-mails. Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ On 11/19/2012 2:52 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: listPlease hold off, tomorrow I will have a detailed description of the total project. Interest seems to be large and soon we will find a way to make it available to every one. Waiting for Juerg my partner in crime to review what I will say tomorrow The 4 channel picture is attached Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/19/2012 4:38:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mspr...@suddenlink.net writes: MINI-TIC for DMTD work Please add me to the list. Thanks Maury Sproul W5UGQ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work please hold off, 4 channel picture attached
What is the status of this project ? I may have missed a few e-mails. Thanks, Dick, W1KSZ On 11/19/2012 2:52 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: listPlease hold off, tomorrow I will have a detailed description of the total project. Interest seems to be large and soon we will find a way to make it available to every one. Waiting for Juerg my partner in crime to review what I will say tomorrow The 4 channel picture is attached Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/19/2012 4:38:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mspr...@suddenlink.net writes: MINI-TIC for DMTD work Please add me to the list. Thanks Maury Sproul W5UGQ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Have achieved around 120db with 3 cascaded 2N3904 CB amps. Something like a BFQ18 broadband transistor with its built in emitter ballasting may be a better choice. They work well in a pushpull CB Norton transformer feedback amp to boost the +7dBm output of an OCXO to +19dBm. Unfortunately Norton CB transformer feedback amplifiers have very little reverse isolation. The next most effective step in improving the DMTD would be to capacitively terminate the mixer IF port and eliminate the cascaded RC filter chain at the mixer output. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi A pair of common base amps will get you to what ever your layout will permit. A single common base at 10 MHz should get you to at least 60 db with a little care. If you run a reasonable transistor you can run levels that will fry a 10 or a 13 dbm mixer. Again, all the discrete circuits work pretty well. It's the modular stuff (especially when driven hard) you have to watch out for. Bob On Nov 21, 2012, at 1:43 AM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Reverse isolation at 10MHz is around 43dB. This can be improved significantly by using a Sziklai pair instead of a single transistor in each amplifier. However one could also do this in a CB amp. Since phase detectors require LO and RF input levels of around 10dBm either deign should suffice. NIST have shown that high level mixers appear to be somewhat noisier than either the ZRPD1 and 10534A. Whilst their custom mixer utilising diode connected 2N222A's has the lowest flicker noise the increased PCB board complexity may not be worthwhile for this application. Reducing the isolation amplifier noise contribution should be more effective than any other changes to the DMTD design. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi A few more parts and likely not quite as much isolation. None of that means it won't do a good job though. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The attached circuit is somewhat more efficient and a little quieter. With a little elaboration lower distortion is possible. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Given that common practice is to mis-match the IF port on the mixers, it's probably not realistic to depend on exact match for isolation. Simple / cheap common base buffers likely are a better approach. Lots of isolation and not much flicker noise. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 9:01 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The details about matching (if any) used in the Czech DMTD would be informative. To avoid degrading the performance of the DMTD system below that imposed by the mixers any isolation amps used will need a flicker phase noise floor below that of the mixers. Even an opamp based isolation amplifier can be at least 10dB quieter (for offsets of 10Hz and below) than a typical minicircuits RF amp. This is still about 10dB or so worse than a good mixer. A well designed low gain isolation amp built with discrete transistors can have significantly lower additive phase noise than an opamp. To reduce the DMTD system noise one can either: 1) Carefully match all ports using series resistors, pads etc as necessary to achieve the required isolation together with a high output low flicker phase noise amplifier to drive the splitter 2) Use isolation amplifiers with very low flicker phase noise. Some isolation between the 2 RF inputs of a DMTD is usually necessary to avoid injection locking of the 2 sources being compared. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Those isolation numbers are *highly* dependent on very good matching at all ports. That's rarely the case unless you have a bunch of pads running around the system. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Typical Minicircuits SMT RF amps have a phase noise at best 20dB worse (@10Hz offset) than the mixer/phase detector. Their reverse isolation is quite low (40dB) The principle reason that the Czech DMTD has such low internal noise is due to the absence of any isolation amplifiers. They use the outputs of a 2 way splitter to drive the LO inputs of the mixers. A output to output isolation of 40dB or more at 10MHz is possible with some minicicuits splitters (e.g. SYPS-2-1). The ZRPD1 has an RF1 - RF2 isolation of around 70dB at 10MHz. With a channel to channel isolation of around 110dB for a 2x ZRPD1 + Splitter combination isolation amplifiers may not be necessary. Bruce Bruce Griffiths wrote: Since mixer noise is one of the limiting factors using a mixer with low flicker noise will help. NIST found that a custom mixer using diode connected (collector base short) 2N222As had a significantly lower flicker phase noise than either the ZRPD1 or the 10534A. They used off the shelf 1:5 impedance ratio transformers (probably from Minicircuits). Another issue is the flicker phase noise of
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Hi I found that I was past the network analyzers 120 db floor with two stages at 10 MHz. Actually the reactive termination thing is a bit of a maybe yes / maybe no sort of thing. It seems to help with some setups and not with others. What does work just about always is to terminate the mixer in 10X it's impedance at the IF port. You still terminate properly at the 1X and 2X RF frequencies. Of the two the double is usually the more important. Bob On Nov 21, 2012, at 5:02 AM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Have achieved around 120db with 3 cascaded 2N3904 CB amps. Something like a BFQ18 broadband transistor with its built in emitter ballasting may be a better choice. They work well in a pushpull CB Norton transformer feedback amp to boost the +7dBm output of an OCXO to +19dBm. Unfortunately Norton CB transformer feedback amplifiers have very little reverse isolation. The next most effective step in improving the DMTD would be to capacitively terminate the mixer IF port and eliminate the cascaded RC filter chain at the mixer output. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi A pair of common base amps will get you to what ever your layout will permit. A single common base at 10 MHz should get you to at least 60 db with a little care. If you run a reasonable transistor you can run levels that will fry a 10 or a 13 dbm mixer. Again, all the discrete circuits work pretty well. It's the modular stuff (especially when driven hard) you have to watch out for. Bob On Nov 21, 2012, at 1:43 AM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Reverse isolation at 10MHz is around 43dB. This can be improved significantly by using a Sziklai pair instead of a single transistor in each amplifier. However one could also do this in a CB amp. Since phase detectors require LO and RF input levels of around 10dBm either deign should suffice. NIST have shown that high level mixers appear to be somewhat noisier than either the ZRPD1 and 10534A. Whilst their custom mixer utilising diode connected 2N222A's has the lowest flicker noise the increased PCB board complexity may not be worthwhile for this application. Reducing the isolation amplifier noise contribution should be more effective than any other changes to the DMTD design. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi A few more parts and likely not quite as much isolation. None of that means it won't do a good job though. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The attached circuit is somewhat more efficient and a little quieter. With a little elaboration lower distortion is possible. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Given that common practice is to mis-match the IF port on the mixers, it's probably not realistic to depend on exact match for isolation. Simple / cheap common base buffers likely are a better approach. Lots of isolation and not much flicker noise. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 9:01 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The details about matching (if any) used in the Czech DMTD would be informative. To avoid degrading the performance of the DMTD system below that imposed by the mixers any isolation amps used will need a flicker phase noise floor below that of the mixers. Even an opamp based isolation amplifier can be at least 10dB quieter (for offsets of 10Hz and below) than a typical minicircuits RF amp. This is still about 10dB or so worse than a good mixer. A well designed low gain isolation amp built with discrete transistors can have significantly lower additive phase noise than an opamp. To reduce the DMTD system noise one can either: 1) Carefully match all ports using series resistors, pads etc as necessary to achieve the required isolation together with a high output low flicker phase noise amplifier to drive the splitter 2) Use isolation amplifiers with very low flicker phase noise. Some isolation between the 2 RF inputs of a DMTD is usually necessary to avoid injection locking of the 2 sources being compared. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Those isolation numbers are *highly* dependent on very good matching at all ports. That's rarely the case unless you have a bunch of pads running around the system. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Typical Minicircuits SMT RF amps have a phase noise at best 20dB worse (@10Hz offset) than the mixer/phase detector. Their reverse isolation is quite low (40dB) The principle reason that the Czech DMTD has such low internal noise is due to the absence of any isolation amplifiers. They use the outputs of a 2 way splitter to drive the LO inputs of the mixers. A output to output isolation of 40dB or more at 10MHz is possible with some minicicuits splitters
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
and one more for the list! regards, Paul -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of ewkeh...@aol.com Sent: 19 November 2012 19:53 To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work Don lets see how much interest and which counter and in the 2 channel it is 3 PIC's and 1 G/A and the 4 channel 5 PIC's and 2 G/A. Easy to solder Juerg and I are 70+ so soldering is a key consideration Bert Kehren. In a message dated 11/19/2012 2:48:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, d...@montana.com writes: uh, ok, how do we order the boards? Don L cdel...@juno.com MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Dave Thank you for your offer. I think I have the documentation solved. Brian, who helped in the past has offered to help and has some of the previous work to build on. As to PIC programming I will ask Juerg to get with you off list. Bert In a message dated 11/19/2012 8:47:25 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mcqu...@sonic.net writes: Hi Bert, What kind or sort of documentation is needed? schematics? PC layout? software / firmware documentation? I've been programming PICs intermittently for 10+ years. Some of my projects use 2 or 4 line LCD displays. I have given other microcontrollers a short test spin. I've also done some Verilog with the Altera DE0 nano board (Cyclone IV EP4CE22F17), a period counter that used an internal PLL to boost the hardware 50 MHz to 300 MHz for better resolution. Also FPGA for software defined radio signal processing (Cyclone III). Dave McQuate WA8YWQ mcqu...@sonic.net On 11/19/2012 2:28 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Allow me to put all this in perspective. Three years ago having just joined time-nuts I started to be interested in Dual Mixers. Having CS and Rb my main interest was and still is low noise signal generators and I have all the HP equipment for those measurements. Did my first Shera Rb about 2000 and a few more since. Time was not and still is not much of an interest my best time instrument is a modified PICTIC II. Starting with the original NBS paper I came to the conclusion that the major cost would be the counter, something I would have very little use for, for other projects since I am well equipped up to 40 GHz. That is when I came up with the idea of what I call a ping pong counter a counter that counts every period, sort of pseudo time stamping. Back of an envelop calculation and I went on the list stating that I think a $ 200 D/M system not counting OCXO’s was doable. What was needed was help with the PIC codes. First response was “that is why we call our self Time-nuts”. However Richard Mc Cokle did offer his help and he has been key to the success. The goal of $ 200 for all material for a 4 channel counter and D/M is attainable if 10 boards are ordered. The first set of boards where done in about 5 month. Several people tested the D/M but kept on using their counter and my thanks go out to Corby who tested the very first D/M. I was left testing the counter and logic is my strong suit as Juerg will attest my weakness is software even though at one time I set up and was in charge of a software group. Had problems with the counter PC interface. Now thanks to Corby I now know that the problem was the 56K RS 232 versus 9.6 K. Tells you how brilliant I am on that subject. Till recently I thought RS 232 is RS232. I did reach out to the list and connected with Fred Tijddingen who offered to help. I send him a counter and he asked me to get him some parts that where not time related after he agreed to pay for them. After I shipped them, never heard from him again. Be careful, I do not know if any one else had that experience. Many of you know I used to ship and only asked to be paid after you got the parts. Well now I am a lot more selective. A year ago I connected with list member Juerg Koegel. We share the same priorities and complement each other with our skill sets. On top of that Juerg has the equipment that I lack and the know how to make it talk to PC’s. On top of that Juerg had used a MAX 3000 G/A for a PICTIC counter. Perfect match. Juerg can also write PIC code, not like Richard but what we need. First out the 2 channel and 4 channel counters now with G/A’s and Richards PIC;s. The two channel measures phase and period in the ping pong mode allowing you to do the basics of a single D/M. The 4 channel was intended for two D/M’s or with an additional 2 channel for three corner hat. Can also be used for cross correlation. How ever the 4 channel in combination with one D/M allows also very high resolution frequency comparison only limited by the noise floor of the D/M. Since the A/V measurements are most likely not a daily activity using this instrument for frequency measurements or aging tests over long term makes it a very useful tool. Juerg does not want me to talk to much about it, but he is right now busy writing PIC code for a 4 line LCD display that also includes a Vinculum VDRIVE2 that allows recording data on a USB flash drive, interfaces with a PC using RS 232, USB and Bluetooth. I call it the Swiss Army Knife, because of all the things the combination D/M, Counter and Juerg LCD can do. The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Would be nice to get 1 E-14. Tried to get detailed information, no luck, but maybe some list
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
I am interested in one. - Original Message - From: cdel...@juno.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 8:04 PM Subject: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD update
I have checked my inventory and I have boards and parts for a couple of dual mixers and counters. I will work with some ones that are willing to build and test them right away and have a good quality OCXO for offset like a 10811 or Morion and a second high performance OCXO for measuring noise floor. A third OCXO would even be better to perform an actual AV. Software know how is also mandatory so you will not repeat what I did. Have to have experience in board assembly but there are only 9 SMD parts involved and they are of the solderable kind. Contact me off list and we will work out the details. Please only ones that are very interested and serious to move this project forward. All parts and boards will be strictly actual cost. Bert Kehren Miami. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD update
Hi, Bert, no problem for the OCXO's (10811, Morion, ALtra CPLD) or other material or soldering skills. But, to be precise, what is the Software know how ? C-ProteusBasic-MicroC, ecc ? thanks Andrea IW2FDH Il 20/11/2012 17.00, ewkeh...@aol.com ha scritto: Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD update
be able to handle 56 K RS232 and use AV software, to me that is not trivial, and Juerg is to busy to hold hands beside me. Bert In a message dated 11/20/2012 11:33:44 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, croma6 4...@yahoo.it writes: Hi, Bert, no problem for the OCXO's (10811, Morion, ALtra CPLD) or other material or soldering skills. But, to be precise, what is the Software know how ? C-ProteusBasic-MicroC, ecc ? thanks Andrea IW2FDH Il 20/11/2012 17.00, ewkeh...@aol.com ha scritto: Bert Kehren ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Do you mean the paper optimization of dual-mixer time-difference multiplier ? The ZCD developed in this is a bit of a kludge and is far from optimum. Reverse engineering the circuit from the description given in the paper isn't too difficult. They claim an instrument limited ADEV of ~7E-15 @ 1s. Do you have a copy of this paper? Bert Kehren Miami ___ Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Yes Bruce I have the paper. I am not suggesting to copy it verbatim but if there is a way to reach reasonable priced 1 E-14 members of the list should pipe in. I am willing to do an other board. the rest of the systems well on its way. Einally after three years. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/20/2012 3:28:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes: ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Do you mean the paper optimization of dual-mixer time-difference multiplier ? The ZCD developed in this is a bit of a kludge and is far from optimum. Reverse engineering the circuit from the description given in the paper isn't too difficult. They claim an instrument limited ADEV of ~7E-15 @ 1s. Do you have a copy of this paper? Bert Kehren Miami ___ Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Since mixer noise is one of the limiting factors using a mixer with low flicker noise will help. NIST found that a custom mixer using diode connected (collector base short) 2N222As had a significantly lower flicker phase noise than either the ZRPD1 or the 10534A. They used off the shelf 1:5 impedance ratio transformers (probably from Minicircuits). Another issue is the flicker phase noise of any isolation amplifiers used. This is particularly critical if each mixer uses its own isolation amplifiers. My current amplifier phase noise measurement setup (for measuring the additive PN of a pair of well matched amplifiers) has a self noise of around -170dBc/Hz @ 1Hz offset for a 10MHz input. Ideally the additive phase noise of any isolation amplifiers should be well below that of the mixers. Bruce ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Yes Bruce I have the paper. I am not suggesting to copy it verbatim but if there is a way to reach reasonable priced 1 E-14 members of the list should pipe in. I am willing to do an other board. the rest of the systems well on its way. Einally after three years. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/20/2012 3:28:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes: ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Do you mean the paper optimization of dual-mixer time-difference multiplier ? The ZCD developed in this is a bit of a kludge and is far from optimum. Reverse engineering the circuit from the description given in the paper isn't too difficult. They claim an instrument limited ADEV of ~7E-15 @ 1s. Do you have a copy of this paper? Bert Kehren Miami ___ Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
I'm interested in two... Thanks, Steve On Nov 19, 2012, at 8:04 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Typical Minicircuits SMT RF amps have a phase noise at best 20dB worse (@10Hz offset) than the mixer/phase detector. Their reverse isolation is quite low (40dB) The principle reason that the Czech DMTD has such low internal noise is due to the absence of any isolation amplifiers. They use the outputs of a 2 way splitter to drive the LO inputs of the mixers. A output to output isolation of 40dB or more at 10MHz is possible with some minicicuits splitters (e.g. SYPS-2-1). The ZRPD1 has an RF1 - RF2 isolation of around 70dB at 10MHz. With a channel to channel isolation of around 110dB for a 2x ZRPD1 + Splitter combination isolation amplifiers may not be necessary. Bruce Bruce Griffiths wrote: Since mixer noise is one of the limiting factors using a mixer with low flicker noise will help. NIST found that a custom mixer using diode connected (collector base short) 2N222As had a significantly lower flicker phase noise than either the ZRPD1 or the 10534A. They used off the shelf 1:5 impedance ratio transformers (probably from Minicircuits). Another issue is the flicker phase noise of any isolation amplifiers used. This is particularly critical if each mixer uses its own isolation amplifiers. My current amplifier phase noise measurement setup (for measuring the additive PN of a pair of well matched amplifiers) has a self noise of around -170dBc/Hz @ 1Hz offset for a 10MHz input. Ideally the additive phase noise of any isolation amplifiers should be well below that of the mixers. Bruce ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Yes Bruce I have the paper. I am not suggesting to copy it verbatim but if there is a way to reach reasonable priced 1 E-14 members of the list should pipe in. I am willing to do an other board. the rest of the systems well on its way. Einally after three years. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/20/2012 3:28:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes: ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Do you mean the paper optimization of dual-mixer time-difference multiplier ? The ZCD developed in this is a bit of a kludge and is far from optimum. Reverse engineering the circuit from the description given in the paper isn't too difficult. They claim an instrument limited ADEV of ~7E-15 @ 1s. Do you have a copy of this paper? Bert Kehren Miami ___ Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Hi Those isolation numbers are *highly* dependent on very good matching at all ports. That's rarely the case unless you have a bunch of pads running around the system. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Typical Minicircuits SMT RF amps have a phase noise at best 20dB worse (@10Hz offset) than the mixer/phase detector. Their reverse isolation is quite low (40dB) The principle reason that the Czech DMTD has such low internal noise is due to the absence of any isolation amplifiers. They use the outputs of a 2 way splitter to drive the LO inputs of the mixers. A output to output isolation of 40dB or more at 10MHz is possible with some minicicuits splitters (e.g. SYPS-2-1). The ZRPD1 has an RF1 - RF2 isolation of around 70dB at 10MHz. With a channel to channel isolation of around 110dB for a 2x ZRPD1 + Splitter combination isolation amplifiers may not be necessary. Bruce Bruce Griffiths wrote: Since mixer noise is one of the limiting factors using a mixer with low flicker noise will help. NIST found that a custom mixer using diode connected (collector base short) 2N222As had a significantly lower flicker phase noise than either the ZRPD1 or the 10534A. They used off the shelf 1:5 impedance ratio transformers (probably from Minicircuits). Another issue is the flicker phase noise of any isolation amplifiers used. This is particularly critical if each mixer uses its own isolation amplifiers. My current amplifier phase noise measurement setup (for measuring the additive PN of a pair of well matched amplifiers) has a self noise of around -170dBc/Hz @ 1Hz offset for a 10MHz input. Ideally the additive phase noise of any isolation amplifiers should be well below that of the mixers. Bruce ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Yes Bruce I have the paper. I am not suggesting to copy it verbatim but if there is a way to reach reasonable priced 1 E-14 members of the list should pipe in. I am willing to do an other board. the rest of the systems well on its way. Einally after three years. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/20/2012 3:28:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes: ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Do you mean the paper optimization of dual-mixer time-difference multiplier ? The ZCD developed in this is a bit of a kludge and is far from optimum. Reverse engineering the circuit from the description given in the paper isn't too difficult. They claim an instrument limited ADEV of ~7E-15 @ 1s. Do you have a copy of this paper? Bert Kehren Miami ___ Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
The details about matching (if any) used in the Czech DMTD would be informative. To avoid degrading the performance of the DMTD system below that imposed by the mixers any isolation amps used will need a flicker phase noise floor below that of the mixers. Even an opamp based isolation amplifier can be at least 10dB quieter (for offsets of 10Hz and below) than a typical minicircuits RF amp. This is still about 10dB or so worse than a good mixer. A well designed low gain isolation amp built with discrete transistors can have significantly lower additive phase noise than an opamp. To reduce the DMTD system noise one can either: 1) Carefully match all ports using series resistors, pads etc as necessary to achieve the required isolation together with a high output low flicker phase noise amplifier to drive the splitter 2) Use isolation amplifiers with very low flicker phase noise. Some isolation between the 2 RF inputs of a DMTD is usually necessary to avoid injection locking of the 2 sources being compared. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Those isolation numbers are *highly* dependent on very good matching at all ports. That's rarely the case unless you have a bunch of pads running around the system. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Typical Minicircuits SMT RF amps have a phase noise at best 20dB worse (@10Hz offset) than the mixer/phase detector. Their reverse isolation is quite low (40dB) The principle reason that the Czech DMTD has such low internal noise is due to the absence of any isolation amplifiers. They use the outputs of a 2 way splitter to drive the LO inputs of the mixers. A output to output isolation of 40dB or more at 10MHz is possible with some minicicuits splitters (e.g. SYPS-2-1). The ZRPD1 has an RF1 - RF2 isolation of around 70dB at 10MHz. With a channel to channel isolation of around 110dB for a 2x ZRPD1 + Splitter combination isolation amplifiers may not be necessary. Bruce Bruce Griffiths wrote: Since mixer noise is one of the limiting factors using a mixer with low flicker noise will help. NIST found that a custom mixer using diode connected (collector base short) 2N222As had a significantly lower flicker phase noise than either the ZRPD1 or the 10534A. They used off the shelf 1:5 impedance ratio transformers (probably from Minicircuits). Another issue is the flicker phase noise of any isolation amplifiers used. This is particularly critical if each mixer uses its own isolation amplifiers. My current amplifier phase noise measurement setup (for measuring the additive PN of a pair of well matched amplifiers) has a self noise of around -170dBc/Hz @ 1Hz offset for a 10MHz input. Ideally the additive phase noise of any isolation amplifiers should be well below that of the mixers. Bruce ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Yes Bruce I have the paper. I am not suggesting to copy it verbatim but if there is a way to reach reasonable priced 1 E-14 members of the list should pipe in. I am willing to do an other board. the rest of the systems well on its way. Einally after three years. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/20/2012 3:28:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes: ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Do you mean the paper optimization of dual-mixer time-difference multiplier ? The ZCD developed in this is a bit of a kludge and is far from optimum. Reverse engineering the circuit from the description given in the paper isn't too difficult. They claim an instrument limited ADEV of ~7E-15 @ 1s. Do you have a copy of this paper? Bert Kehren Miami ___ Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Hi Given that common practice is to mis-match the IF port on the mixers, it's probably not realistic to depend on exact match for isolation. Simple / cheap common base buffers likely are a better approach. Lots of isolation and not much flicker noise. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 9:01 PM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The details about matching (if any) used in the Czech DMTD would be informative. To avoid degrading the performance of the DMTD system below that imposed by the mixers any isolation amps used will need a flicker phase noise floor below that of the mixers. Even an opamp based isolation amplifier can be at least 10dB quieter (for offsets of 10Hz and below) than a typical minicircuits RF amp. This is still about 10dB or so worse than a good mixer. A well designed low gain isolation amp built with discrete transistors can have significantly lower additive phase noise than an opamp. To reduce the DMTD system noise one can either: 1) Carefully match all ports using series resistors, pads etc as necessary to achieve the required isolation together with a high output low flicker phase noise amplifier to drive the splitter 2) Use isolation amplifiers with very low flicker phase noise. Some isolation between the 2 RF inputs of a DMTD is usually necessary to avoid injection locking of the 2 sources being compared. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Those isolation numbers are *highly* dependent on very good matching at all ports. That's rarely the case unless you have a bunch of pads running around the system. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Typical Minicircuits SMT RF amps have a phase noise at best 20dB worse (@10Hz offset) than the mixer/phase detector. Their reverse isolation is quite low (40dB) The principle reason that the Czech DMTD has such low internal noise is due to the absence of any isolation amplifiers. They use the outputs of a 2 way splitter to drive the LO inputs of the mixers. A output to output isolation of 40dB or more at 10MHz is possible with some minicicuits splitters (e.g. SYPS-2-1). The ZRPD1 has an RF1 - RF2 isolation of around 70dB at 10MHz. With a channel to channel isolation of around 110dB for a 2x ZRPD1 + Splitter combination isolation amplifiers may not be necessary. Bruce Bruce Griffiths wrote: Since mixer noise is one of the limiting factors using a mixer with low flicker noise will help. NIST found that a custom mixer using diode connected (collector base short) 2N222As had a significantly lower flicker phase noise than either the ZRPD1 or the 10534A. They used off the shelf 1:5 impedance ratio transformers (probably from Minicircuits). Another issue is the flicker phase noise of any isolation amplifiers used. This is particularly critical if each mixer uses its own isolation amplifiers. My current amplifier phase noise measurement setup (for measuring the additive PN of a pair of well matched amplifiers) has a self noise of around -170dBc/Hz @ 1Hz offset for a 10MHz input. Ideally the additive phase noise of any isolation amplifiers should be well below that of the mixers. Bruce ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Yes Bruce I have the paper. I am not suggesting to copy it verbatim but if there is a way to reach reasonable priced 1 E-14 members of the list should pipe in. I am willing to do an other board. the rest of the systems well on its way. Einally after three years. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/20/2012 3:28:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes: ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Do you mean the paper optimization of dual-mixer time-difference multiplier ? The ZCD developed in this is a bit of a kludge and is far from optimum. Reverse engineering the circuit from the description given in the paper isn't too difficult. They claim an instrument limited ADEV of ~7E-15 @ 1s. Do you have a copy of this paper? Bert Kehren Miami ___ Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
Yet another... please add me to the list... I'm very interested. Thanks! On 11/19/2012 2:04 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Hi A few more parts and likely not quite as much isolation. None of that means it won't do a good job though. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The attached circuit is somewhat more efficient and a little quieter. With a little elaboration lower distortion is possible. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Given that common practice is to mis-match the IF port on the mixers, it's probably not realistic to depend on exact match for isolation. Simple / cheap common base buffers likely are a better approach. Lots of isolation and not much flicker noise. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 9:01 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The details about matching (if any) used in the Czech DMTD would be informative. To avoid degrading the performance of the DMTD system below that imposed by the mixers any isolation amps used will need a flicker phase noise floor below that of the mixers. Even an opamp based isolation amplifier can be at least 10dB quieter (for offsets of 10Hz and below) than a typical minicircuits RF amp. This is still about 10dB or so worse than a good mixer. A well designed low gain isolation amp built with discrete transistors can have significantly lower additive phase noise than an opamp. To reduce the DMTD system noise one can either: 1) Carefully match all ports using series resistors, pads etc as necessary to achieve the required isolation together with a high output low flicker phase noise amplifier to drive the splitter 2) Use isolation amplifiers with very low flicker phase noise. Some isolation between the 2 RF inputs of a DMTD is usually necessary to avoid injection locking of the 2 sources being compared. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Those isolation numbers are *highly* dependent on very good matching at all ports. That's rarely the case unless you have a bunch of pads running around the system. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Typical Minicircuits SMT RF amps have a phase noise at best 20dB worse (@10Hz offset) than the mixer/phase detector. Their reverse isolation is quite low (40dB) The principle reason that the Czech DMTD has such low internal noise is due to the absence of any isolation amplifiers. They use the outputs of a 2 way splitter to drive the LO inputs of the mixers. A output to output isolation of 40dB or more at 10MHz is possible with some minicicuits splitters (e.g. SYPS-2-1). The ZRPD1 has an RF1 - RF2 isolation of around 70dB at 10MHz. With a channel to channel isolation of around 110dB for a 2x ZRPD1 + Splitter combination isolation amplifiers may not be necessary. Bruce Bruce Griffiths wrote: Since mixer noise is one of the limiting factors using a mixer with low flicker noise will help. NIST found that a custom mixer using diode connected (collector base short) 2N222As had a significantly lower flicker phase noise than either the ZRPD1 or the 10534A. They used off the shelf 1:5 impedance ratio transformers (probably from Minicircuits). Another issue is the flicker phase noise of any isolation amplifiers used. This is particularly critical if each mixer uses its own isolation amplifiers. My current amplifier phase noise measurement setup (for measuring the additive PN of a pair of well matched amplifiers) has a self noise of around -170dBc/Hz @ 1Hz offset for a 10MHz input. Ideally the additive phase noise of any isolation amplifiers should be well below that of the mixers. Bruce ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Yes Bruce I have the paper. I am not suggesting to copy it verbatim but if there is a way to reach reasonable priced 1 E-14 members of the list should pipe in. I am willing to do an other board. the rest of the systems well on its way. Einally after three years. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/20/2012 3:28:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes: ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Do you mean the paper optimization of dual-mixer time-difference multiplier ? The ZCD developed in this is a bit of a kludge and is far from optimum. Reverse engineering the circuit from the description given in the paper isn't too difficult. They claim an instrument limited ADEV of ~7E-15 @ 1s. Do you have a copy of this paper? Bert Kehren Miami ___ Bruce ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Reverse isolation at 10MHz is around 43dB. This can be improved significantly by using a Sziklai pair instead of a single transistor in each amplifier. However one could also do this in a CB amp. Since phase detectors require LO and RF input levels of around 10dBm either deign should suffice. NIST have shown that high level mixers appear to be somewhat noisier than either the ZRPD1 and 10534A. Whilst their custom mixer utilising diode connected 2N222A's has the lowest flicker noise the increased PCB board complexity may not be worthwhile for this application. Reducing the isolation amplifier noise contribution should be more effective than any other changes to the DMTD design. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi A few more parts and likely not quite as much isolation. None of that means it won't do a good job though. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The attached circuit is somewhat more efficient and a little quieter. With a little elaboration lower distortion is possible. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Given that common practice is to mis-match the IF port on the mixers, it's probably not realistic to depend on exact match for isolation. Simple / cheap common base buffers likely are a better approach. Lots of isolation and not much flicker noise. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 9:01 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The details about matching (if any) used in the Czech DMTD would be informative. To avoid degrading the performance of the DMTD system below that imposed by the mixers any isolation amps used will need a flicker phase noise floor below that of the mixers. Even an opamp based isolation amplifier can be at least 10dB quieter (for offsets of 10Hz and below) than a typical minicircuits RF amp. This is still about 10dB or so worse than a good mixer. A well designed low gain isolation amp built with discrete transistors can have significantly lower additive phase noise than an opamp. To reduce the DMTD system noise one can either: 1) Carefully match all ports using series resistors, pads etc as necessary to achieve the required isolation together with a high output low flicker phase noise amplifier to drive the splitter 2) Use isolation amplifiers with very low flicker phase noise. Some isolation between the 2 RF inputs of a DMTD is usually necessary to avoid injection locking of the 2 sources being compared. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Those isolation numbers are *highly* dependent on very good matching at all ports. That's rarely the case unless you have a bunch of pads running around the system. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Typical Minicircuits SMT RF amps have a phase noise at best 20dB worse (@10Hz offset) than the mixer/phase detector. Their reverse isolation is quite low (40dB) The principle reason that the Czech DMTD has such low internal noise is due to the absence of any isolation amplifiers. They use the outputs of a 2 way splitter to drive the LO inputs of the mixers. A output to output isolation of 40dB or more at 10MHz is possible with some minicicuits splitters (e.g. SYPS-2-1). The ZRPD1 has an RF1 - RF2 isolation of around 70dB at 10MHz. With a channel to channel isolation of around 110dB for a 2x ZRPD1 + Splitter combination isolation amplifiers may not be necessary. Bruce Bruce Griffiths wrote: Since mixer noise is one of the limiting factors using a mixer with low flicker noise will help. NIST found that a custom mixer using diode connected (collector base short) 2N222As had a significantly lower flicker phase noise than either the ZRPD1 or the 10534A. They used off the shelf 1:5 impedance ratio transformers (probably from Minicircuits). Another issue is the flicker phase noise of any isolation amplifiers used. This is particularly critical if each mixer uses its own isolation amplifiers. My current amplifier phase noise measurement setup (for measuring the additive PN of a pair of well matched amplifiers) has a self noise of around -170dBc/Hz @ 1Hz offset for a 10MHz input. Ideally the additive phase noise of any isolation amplifiers should be well below that of the mixers. Bruce ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Yes Bruce I have the paper. I am not suggesting to copy it verbatim but if there is a way to reach reasonable priced 1 E-14 members of the list should pipe in. I am willing to do an other board. the rest of the systems well on its way. Einally after three years. Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/20/2012 3:28:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz writes: ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Do you mean the paper optimization
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Hi A pair of common base amps will get you to what ever your layout will permit. A single common base at 10 MHz should get you to at least 60 db with a little care. If you run a reasonable transistor you can run levels that will fry a 10 or a 13 dbm mixer. Again, all the discrete circuits work pretty well. It's the modular stuff (especially when driven hard) you have to watch out for. Bob On Nov 21, 2012, at 1:43 AM, Bruce Griffiths bruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Reverse isolation at 10MHz is around 43dB. This can be improved significantly by using a Sziklai pair instead of a single transistor in each amplifier. However one could also do this in a CB amp. Since phase detectors require LO and RF input levels of around 10dBm either deign should suffice. NIST have shown that high level mixers appear to be somewhat noisier than either the ZRPD1 and 10534A. Whilst their custom mixer utilising diode connected 2N222A's has the lowest flicker noise the increased PCB board complexity may not be worthwhile for this application. Reducing the isolation amplifier noise contribution should be more effective than any other changes to the DMTD design. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi A few more parts and likely not quite as much isolation. None of that means it won't do a good job though. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 11:20 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The attached circuit is somewhat more efficient and a little quieter. With a little elaboration lower distortion is possible. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Given that common practice is to mis-match the IF port on the mixers, it's probably not realistic to depend on exact match for isolation. Simple / cheap common base buffers likely are a better approach. Lots of isolation and not much flicker noise. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 9:01 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: The details about matching (if any) used in the Czech DMTD would be informative. To avoid degrading the performance of the DMTD system below that imposed by the mixers any isolation amps used will need a flicker phase noise floor below that of the mixers. Even an opamp based isolation amplifier can be at least 10dB quieter (for offsets of 10Hz and below) than a typical minicircuits RF amp. This is still about 10dB or so worse than a good mixer. A well designed low gain isolation amp built with discrete transistors can have significantly lower additive phase noise than an opamp. To reduce the DMTD system noise one can either: 1) Carefully match all ports using series resistors, pads etc as necessary to achieve the required isolation together with a high output low flicker phase noise amplifier to drive the splitter 2) Use isolation amplifiers with very low flicker phase noise. Some isolation between the 2 RF inputs of a DMTD is usually necessary to avoid injection locking of the 2 sources being compared. Bruce Bob Camp wrote: Hi Those isolation numbers are *highly* dependent on very good matching at all ports. That's rarely the case unless you have a bunch of pads running around the system. Bob On Nov 20, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Bruce Griffithsbruce.griffi...@xtra.co.nz wrote: Typical Minicircuits SMT RF amps have a phase noise at best 20dB worse (@10Hz offset) than the mixer/phase detector. Their reverse isolation is quite low (40dB) The principle reason that the Czech DMTD has such low internal noise is due to the absence of any isolation amplifiers. They use the outputs of a 2 way splitter to drive the LO inputs of the mixers. A output to output isolation of 40dB or more at 10MHz is possible with some minicicuits splitters (e.g. SYPS-2-1). The ZRPD1 has an RF1 - RF2 isolation of around 70dB at 10MHz. With a channel to channel isolation of around 110dB for a 2x ZRPD1 + Splitter combination isolation amplifiers may not be necessary. Bruce Bruce Griffiths wrote: Since mixer noise is one of the limiting factors using a mixer with low flicker noise will help. NIST found that a custom mixer using diode connected (collector base short) 2N222As had a significantly lower flicker phase noise than either the ZRPD1 or the 10534A. They used off the shelf 1:5 impedance ratio transformers (probably from Minicircuits). Another issue is the flicker phase noise of any isolation amplifiers used. This is particularly critical if each mixer uses its own isolation amplifiers. My current amplifier phase noise measurement setup (for measuring the additive PN of a pair of well matched amplifiers) has a self noise of around -170dBc/Hz @ 1Hz offset for a 10MHz input. Ideally the additive phase noise of any isolation amplifiers should be well below that of the mixers. Bruce ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Yes Bruce I have the paper. I
[time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
uh, ok, how do we order the boards? Don L cdel...@juno.com MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
Don lets see how much interest and which counter and in the 2 channel it is 3 PIC's and 1 G/A and the 4 channel 5 PIC's and 2 G/A. Easy to solder Juerg and I are 70+ so soldering is a key consideration Bert Kehren. In a message dated 11/19/2012 2:48:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, d...@montana.com writes: uh, ok, how do we order the boards? Don L cdel...@juno.com MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
I'd like to be on the list. Definitely. Where do I have to pay? Volker Am 19.11.2012 20:04, schrieb cdel...@juno.com: MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
Sign me in too... Daniel Em 19/11/2012 17:57, Volker Esper escreveu: I'd like to be on the list. Definitely. Where do I have to pay? Volker Am 19.11.2012 20:04, schrieb cdel...@juno.com: MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
Hi Gents, please put me on the list. I should like to have one unit or a KIT. Rgds Ernie. -Original Message- From: Volker Esper ail...@t-online.de To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Mon, Nov 19, 2012 8:57 pm Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work 'd like to be on the list. Definitely. Where do I have to pay? Volker m 19.11.2012 20:04, schrieb cdel...@juno.com: MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ ime-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com o unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts nd follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
As Bert mentioned once the amount if interest is established purchase details will post. We also will post a FAQ for this project. Thanks, Corby The New #34;Skinny#34; Fruit How This Strange 62-Cent African Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa9366d74d913667845st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
SIgn me up for one! Bob K6RTM in sunny Silicon Valley -- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2012 14:53:16 -0500 (EST) From: ewkeh...@aol.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work Message-ID: 2822f.5cd0eab7.3ddbe...@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Don lets see how much interest and which counter and in the 2 channel it is 3 PIC's and 1 G/A and the 4 channel 5 PIC's and 2 G/A. Easy to solder Juerg and I are 70+ so soldering is a key consideration Bert Kehren. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
At this interest rate you´ll sell more units than Apple will sell Iphone 5´s... ;) Daniel Em 19/11/2012 18:15, cdel...@juno.com escreveu: As Bert mentioned once the amount if interest is established purchase details will post. We also will post a FAQ for this project. Thanks, Corby The New #34;Skinny#34; Fruit How This Strange 62-Cent African Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa9366d74d913667845st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
I am interested in one. Jim Cotton On 11/19/12 3:28 PM, Daniel Mendes wrote: At this interest rate you´ll sell more units than Apple will sell Iphone 5´s... ;) Daniel Em 19/11/2012 18:15, cdel...@juno.com escreveu: As Bert mentioned once the amount if interest is established purchase details will post. We also will post a FAQ for this project. Thanks, Corby The New #34;Skinny#34; Fruit How This Strange 62-Cent African Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa9366d74d913667845st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD
Enthusiastically read about the above. Put me on the list also, please. A kit would be worth a premium price. Jim Robbins, N1JR ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
I'm interested as well, Thanks Guys, Rob. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of ewkeh...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 6:53 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work Don lets see how much interest and which counter and in the 2 channel it is 3 PIC's and 1 G/A and the 4 channel 5 PIC's and 2 G/A. Easy to solder Juerg and I are 70+ so soldering is a key consideration Bert Kehren. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
Corby and Bert -- Count me in! John On Nov 19, 2012, at 3:15 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: As Bert mentioned once the amount if interest is established purchase details will post. We also will post a FAQ for this project. Thanks, Corby The New #34;Skinny#34; Fruit How This Strange 62-Cent African Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa9366d74d913667845st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
count me in. Adrian cdel...@juno.com schrieb: As Bert mentioned once the amount if interest is established purchase details will post. We also will post a FAQ for this project. Thanks, Corby The New #34;Skinny#34; Fruit How This Strange 62-Cent African Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa9366d74d913667845st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. Please add my name to the list! Thank you, Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
I'm interested in one as well. Alan On Mon, Nov 19, 2012 at 1:15 PM, cdel...@juno.com wrote: As Bert mentioned once the amount if interest is established purchase details will post. We also will post a FAQ for this project. Thanks, Corby The New #34;Skinny#34; Fruit How This Strange 62-Cent African Fruit Is Making Americans Skinny. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa9366d74d913667845st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
+1 please! On Nov 19, 2012, at 16:23, mcqu...@sonic.net wrote: MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. Please add my name to the list! Thank you, Dave ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
pls add me to your list. -Don -- From: Rob S. robe...@dcsi.net.au Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 2:57 PM To: 'Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement' time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work I'm interested as well, Thanks Guys, Rob. -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of ewkeh...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 6:53 AM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work Don lets see how much interest and which counter and in the 2 channel it is 3 PIC's and 1 G/A and the 4 channel 5 PIC's and 2 G/A. Easy to solder Juerg and I are 70+ so soldering is a key consideration Bert Kehren. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
MINI-TIC for DMTD work Please add me to the list. Thanks Maury Sproul W5UGQ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Allow me to put all this in perspective. Three years ago having just joined time-nuts I started to be interested in Dual Mixers. Having CS and Rb my main interest was and still is low noise signal generators and I have all the HP equipment for those measurements. Did my first Shera Rb about 2000 and a few more since. Time was not and still is not much of an interest my best time instrument is a modified PICTIC II. Starting with the original NBS paper I came to the conclusion that the major cost would be the counter, something I would have very little use for, for other projects since I am well equipped up to 40 GHz. That is when I came up with the idea of what I call a ping pong counter a counter that counts every period, sort of pseudo time stamping. Back of an envelop calculation and I went on the list stating that I think a $ 200 D/M system not counting OCXO’s was doable. What was needed was help with the PIC codes. First response was “that is why we call our self Time-nuts”. However Richard Mc Cokle did offer his help and he has been key to the success. The goal of $ 200 for all material for a 4 channel counter and D/M is attainable if 10 boards are ordered. The first set of boards where done in about 5 month. Several people tested the D/M but kept on using their counter and my thanks go out to Corby who tested the very first D/M. I was left testing the counter and logic is my strong suit as Juerg will attest my weakness is software even though at one time I set up and was in charge of a software group. Had problems with the counter PC interface. Now thanks to Corby I now know that the problem was the 56K RS 232 versus 9.6 K. Tells you how brilliant I am on that subject. Till recently I thought RS 232 is RS232. I did reach out to the list and connected with Fred Tijddingen who offered to help. I send him a counter and he asked me to get him some parts that where not time related after he agreed to pay for them. After I shipped them, never heard from him again. Be careful, I do not know if any one else had that experience. Many of you know I used to ship and only asked to be paid after you got the parts. Well now I am a lot more selective. A year ago I connected with list member Juerg Koegel. We share the same priorities and complement each other with our skill sets. On top of that Juerg has the equipment that I lack and the know how to make it talk to PC’s. On top of that Juerg had used a MAX 3000 G/A for a PICTIC counter. Perfect match. Juerg can also write PIC code, not like Richard but what we need. First out the 2 channel and 4 channel counters now with G/A’s and Richards PIC;s. The two channel measures phase and period in the ping pong mode allowing you to do the basics of a single D/M. The 4 channel was intended for two D/M’s or with an additional 2 channel for three corner hat. Can also be used for cross correlation. How ever the 4 channel in combination with one D/M allows also very high resolution frequency comparison only limited by the noise floor of the D/M. Since the A/V measurements are most likely not a daily activity using this instrument for frequency measurements or aging tests over long term makes it a very useful tool. Juerg does not want me to talk to much about it, but he is right now busy writing PIC code for a 4 line LCD display that also includes a Vinculum VDRIVE2 that allows recording data on a USB flash drive, interfaces with a PC using RS 232, USB and Bluetooth. I call it the Swiss Army Knife, because of all the things the combination D/M, Counter and Juerg LCD can do. The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Would be nice to get 1 E-14. Tried to get detailed information, no luck, but maybe some list member will be able to. It was EU funded. Working with Juerg has been very productive 2 channel counterdone 4 channel counterdone Partridge and TADD-2 Mini like 1 pps generator using G/A done Tbolt Bluetooth interface done G/A version of Shera using 100 or 200 MHz in testing D/M LCD PCB done, in code writing phase Austron circuit using G/A in testing PICTIC II using G/A in board layout G/A done At this point I like to make a plug for the Altera MAX 3000 GA. Easy to program (I can do it) low cost and makes all TTL and HC logic available but the best part if something does not work you do not have to do a new board, just reprogram. Using a $ 0.60 socket makes it very solderable. Made a prototype board and I think it is fair to say that our productivity has gone up 10 fold. Some one mentioned G/A jitter a day later we had a test setup comparing a Partrige board with our circuit and found out thanks to Jueg’s equipment G/A was as good maybe slightly better. Software is free and the prog rammer is $ 10. What happens
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
Please include me in for a kit of the two input unit and I wouldd possibly be interested in a higher spec unit as well. Regards Malcolm G0MIC ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work please hold off, 4 channel picture attached
Waiting with bated breath JimT Sent from *my* galaxy. On Nov 19, 2012 3:53 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: listPlease hold off, tomorrow I will have a detailed description of the total project. Interest seems to be large and soon we will find a way to make it available to every one. Waiting for Juerg my partner in crime to review what I will say tomorrow The 4 channel picture is attached Bert Kehren In a message dated 11/19/2012 4:38:16 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mspr...@suddenlink.net writes: MINI-TIC for DMTD work Please add me to the list. Thanks Maury Sproul W5UGQ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work detail Info please read
Hi Bert, What kind or sort of documentation is needed? schematics? PC layout? software / firmware documentation? I've been programming PICs intermittently for 10+ years. Some of my projects use 2 or 4 line LCD displays. I have given other microcontrollers a short test spin. I've also done some Verilog with the Altera DE0 nano board (Cyclone IV EP4CE22F17), a period counter that used an internal PLL to boost the hardware 50 MHz to 300 MHz for better resolution. Also FPGA for software defined radio signal processing (Cyclone III). Dave McQuate WA8YWQ mcqu...@sonic.net On 11/19/2012 2:28 PM, ewkeh...@aol.com wrote: Allow me to put all this in perspective. Three years ago having just joined time-nuts I started to be interested in Dual Mixers. Having CS and Rb my main interest was and still is low noise signal generators and I have all the HP equipment for those measurements. Did my first Shera Rb about 2000 and a few more since. Time was not and still is not much of an interest my best time instrument is a modified PICTIC II. Starting with the original NBS paper I came to the conclusion that the major cost would be the counter, something I would have very little use for, for other projects since I am well equipped up to 40 GHz. That is when I came up with the idea of what I call a ping pong counter a counter that counts every period, sort of pseudo time stamping. Back of an envelop calculation and I went on the list stating that I think a $ 200 D/M system not counting OCXO’s was doable. What was needed was help with the PIC codes. First response was “that is why we call our self Time-nuts”. However Richard Mc Cokle did offer his help and he has been key to the success. The goal of $ 200 for all material for a 4 channel counter and D/M is attainable if 10 boards are ordered. The first set of boards where done in about 5 month. Several people tested the D/M but kept on using their counter and my thanks go out to Corby who tested the very first D/M. I was left testing the counter and logic is my strong suit as Juerg will attest my weakness is software even though at one time I set up and was in charge of a software group. Had problems with the counter PC interface. Now thanks to Corby I now know that the problem was the 56K RS 232 versus 9.6 K. Tells you how brilliant I am on that subject. Till recently I thought RS 232 is RS232. I did reach out to the list and connected with Fred Tijddingen who offered to help. I send him a counter and he asked me to get him some parts that where not time related after he agreed to pay for them. After I shipped them, never heard from him again. Be careful, I do not know if any one else had that experience. Many of you know I used to ship and only asked to be paid after you got the parts. Well now I am a lot more selective. A year ago I connected with list member Juerg Koegel. We share the same priorities and complement each other with our skill sets. On top of that Juerg has the equipment that I lack and the know how to make it talk to PC’s. On top of that Juerg had used a MAX 3000 G/A for a PICTIC counter. Perfect match. Juerg can also write PIC code, not like Richard but what we need. First out the 2 channel and 4 channel counters now with G/A’s and Richards PIC;s. The two channel measures phase and period in the ping pong mode allowing you to do the basics of a single D/M. The 4 channel was intended for two D/M’s or with an additional 2 channel for three corner hat. Can also be used for cross correlation. How ever the 4 channel in combination with one D/M allows also very high resolution frequency comparison only limited by the noise floor of the D/M. Since the A/V measurements are most likely not a daily activity using this instrument for frequency measurements or aging tests over long term makes it a very useful tool. Juerg does not want me to talk to much about it, but he is right now busy writing PIC code for a 4 line LCD display that also includes a Vinculum VDRIVE2 that allows recording data on a USB flash drive, interfaces with a PC using RS 232, USB and Bluetooth. I call it the Swiss Army Knife, because of all the things the combination D/M, Counter and Juerg LCD can do. The D/M is being revisited because of the counter performance. 1 E-13 is easily attainable but the Czech IREE published a paper and claim 2 E-15. Would be nice to get 1 E-14. Tried to get detailed information, no luck, but maybe some list member will be able to. It was EU funded. Working with Juerg has been very productive 2 channel counterdone 4 channel counterdone Partridge and TADD-2 Mini like 1 pps generator using G/A done Tbolt Bluetooth interface done G/A version of Shera using 100 or 200 MHz in testing D/M LCD PCB done, in code writing phase Austron circuit using G/A in testing PICTIC II using G/A in board layout G/A done At this point I like to make a plug for the Altera MAX 3000 GA. Easy to program (I
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
Please put a tic next to my name. I am interested as well and await details. Darrell - Original Message - From: cdel...@juno.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 11:04:12 AM Subject: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work
I'm interested. BTW, good work! Joe -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of ewkeh...@aol.com Sent: Monday, November 19, 2012 1:53 PM To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Nifty MINI TIC for DMTD work Don lets see how much interest and which counter and in the 2 channel it is 3 PIC's and 1 G/A and the 4 channel 5 PIC's and 2 G/A. Easy to solder Juerg and I are 70+ so soldering is a key consideration Bert Kehren. In a message dated 11/19/2012 2:48:39 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, d...@montana.com writes: uh, ok, how do we order the boards? Don L cdel...@juno.com MINI-TIC for DMTD work Hi Everyone! I've been testing a Miniature 2 channel TIC that Bert Kehren and Juerg Koegel and Richard Mc Corkle have designed. It has 9 digits/Sec. and with a 1HZ offset in the DMTD unit gives a resolution of 1X10-15th at 10 MHz, 2X10-15 with a 5 MHz input, when measuring Allan deviation. The 200 MHz version doubles the resolution. Of course the baseline performance of the DMTD unit and the stability of the DMTD reference determines the actual accuracy you can obtain. (My dual mixer has a baseline of approx. 8X10-14th at 1 second and my best reference is 4X10-13th at 1 second.) The MINI takes a 5 or 10 MHz reference that only has to be stable to parts in 10-8th/sec. I used a neat 14PIN ovenized DIP clock chip I got on eBay and recently discussed on the list. The reference is multiplied to 100Mhz for use as the counters clock. The MINI is about 2.5 by 2 inches and has only 5 chips. Two opto couplers an op amp for two analog channels are also on the board. If run on 5 volt a 3.3 V regulator is also on the board. Power required is +5VDC 0.05 A and +- 12 (for the RS232 interface) It also has two pins you can individually ground to measure the period of the beat note from either channel. This allows you to adjust the offset frequency quickly and accurately. I installed the MINI into a 1U chassis with the power supply and also added heartbeat LEDS for each channel to show the presence of the 1PPS inputs. I have plotted several Rubidium and many Quartz using the MINI simultaneously with a SR620 counter/timer. The plots are identical! So much so that I am going to retire and sell my SR620! I understand work is complete on a 4 channel counters and Bluetooth interface, and work is ongoing on a LCD. The MINI material cost is less than $25.00 depending on how many boards are ordered! Resoution based on clock frequency and beat frequency: Carrier[MHz] Beat [Hz] HeterodyneTIC [ns] Resolution 10101.00E+06101.00E-14 1011.00E+07101.00E-15 1011.00E+0755.00E-16 10101.00E+0655.00E-15 5105.00E+05102.00E-14 515.00E+06102.00E-15 515.00E+0651.00E-15 5105.00E+0551.00E-14 Woman is 53 But Looks 25 Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors... http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/50aa82cb1214a2ca03f8st04duc ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Neither the voice of authority nor the weight of reason and argument are as significant as experiment, for thence comes quiet to the mind. De Erroribus Medicorum, R. Bacon, 13th century. If you don't know what it is, don't poke it. Ghost in the Shell Dr. Don Latham AJ7LL Six Mile Systems LLP 17850 Six Mile Road POB 134 Huson, MT, 59846 VOX 406-626-4304 www.lightningforensics.com www.sixmilesystems.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
