[time-nuts] WWVB new modulation...
Hi Chris, I'm sure they're leaking pretty badly, but it's not enough to bother my normal usage. My other receivers do not hear my standards even though they are in the same rack, but the Heathkit does, even with an outside antenna. The Heathkit's front end is not shielded worth beans as it was not intended to operate in this kind of environment. My two DATUM 9390's feed two video D.A.'s Video Patch bays and all my cables are Belden 8281. The D.A.'s are rack mount and use plug in cards and are not that well enclosed. Burt, K6OQK From: Christopher Brown cbr...@woods.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation... On 11/23/12 8:28 AM, Burt I. Weiner wrote: I still have two of the Heathkit clocks, but alas, they won't work at home because of my standards. Burt, K6OQK Are your equipment and interconnects leaking that badly? Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation...
Ahh. Small lot w/ antenna restrictions here, so my main antenna is a inverted L 35ft from my second floor shack. Means that any leakage that can be detected in the shack with a small loop at 4 feet can be easily heard on the main antenna. So, filters and ferrite chokes on everything, LMR240, 400 or 400UF for everything except a few temp use jumper, and I clear all the seems of all the gear, check for leaks and even keep a few rolls of conductive adhesive copper EMI tape around. Like the be able to run all my gear without hearing it, and figure any egress is a potential egress. If the antenna 35ft away can hear it, then 500w transmit on the same antenna is likely to get in and screw with the gear. Chris - WL7CLA On 11/24/12 7:24 AM, Burt I. Weiner wrote: Hi Chris, I'm sure they're leaking pretty badly, but it's not enough to bother my normal usage. My other receivers do not hear my standards even though they are in the same rack, but the Heathkit does, even with an outside antenna. The Heathkit's front end is not shielded worth beans as it was not intended to operate in this kind of environment. My two DATUM 9390's feed two video D.A.'s Video Patch bays and all my cables are Belden 8281. The D.A.'s are rack mount and use plug in cards and are not that well enclosed. Burt, K6OQK From: Christopher Brown cbr...@woods.net To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation... On 11/23/12 8:28 AM, Burt I. Weiner wrote: I still have two of the Heathkit clocks, but alas, they won't work at home because of my standards. Burt, K6OQK Are your equipment and interconnects leaking that badly? Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB new modulation...
There were several companies that made WWV clocks that worked by recovering the 100 Hz time code information. ESE, who makes broadcast related products, including clocks, was one. I remember installing several card types manufactured by various companies that worked in computers. I still have two of the Heathkit clocks, but alas, they won't work at home because of my standards. Burt, K6OQK From: Mike Harpe m...@mikeharpe.com So doesn't this put us back to the same situation as when Heathkit got a patent for their Most Accurate Clock kit that used the timecode from the HF signals on WWV and WWVH? No one wanted to make radio clocks because of the patent. Has there been any talk about how available the chip will be? My attitude is that I'll build whatever I want to for myself. Mike Harpe, N4PLE I realize this modulation scheme change is perceived as a sensitive subject. But, really, since the full scheme is fully disclosed no company has a monopoly on its use. Actually, I think the developing company does have patents on some of the receiver implementations. You can probably design around them. My question is, will this new scheme offer enough advantages to merit the production of commercial equipment to use it, and ultimately whether low-cost equipment will be sufficiently advantageous to merit its design and production in volume like the typical WWVB digital clocks prevalent today. Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation...
On 11/23/12 8:28 AM, Burt I. Weiner wrote: I still have two of the Heathkit clocks, but alas, they won't work at home because of my standards. Burt, K6OQK Are your equipment and interconnects leaking that badly? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation scheme monograph
Are there any commercial products using this new phase-shift modulation scheme? Larry On 11/3/2012 4:32 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote: This has probably already been posted more than once, but if anyone is still looking for a description of the new WWVB modulation scheme: http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2651.pdf (Sept. 2012) ... -- Best wishes, Larry McDavid W6FUB Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation scheme monograph
It depends on what you mean: First off, the phase modulation renders many existing phase tracking receivers useless. Period. A few current receivers are immune to the PSK, but they do not 'use' the PSK modulation, but they just ignore it. My understanding is, the new modulation was designed using an SBIR grant, and a proprietary chip designed and tested with taxpayer money. AFAIK there is no other source, so the company that did the SBIR now has a monopoly. -John === Are there any commercial products using this new phase-shift modulation scheme? Larry On 11/3/2012 4:32 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote: This has probably already been posted more than once, but if anyone is still looking for a description of the new WWVB modulation scheme: http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2651.pdf (Sept. 2012) ... -- Best wishes, Larry McDavid W6FUB Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation
I realize this modulation scheme change is perceived as a sensitive subject. But, really, since the full scheme is fully disclosed no company has a monopoly on its use. My question is, will this new scheme offer enough advantages to merit the production of commercial equipment to use it, and ultimately whether low-cost equipment will be sufficiently advantageous to merit its design and production in volume like the typical WWVB digital clocks prevalent today. Does the company that worked with NIST on the development have a product now that uses the new scheme? Larry On 11/22/2012 11:42 AM, J. Forster wrote: It depends on what you mean: First off, the phase modulation renders many existing phase tracking receivers useless. Period. A few current receivers are immune to the PSK, but they do not 'use' the PSK modulation, but they just ignore it. My understanding is, the new modulation was designed using an SBIR grant, and a proprietary chip designed and tested with taxpayer money. AFAIK there is no other source, so the company that did the SBIR now has a monopoly. -John === Are there any commercial products using this new phase-shift modulation scheme? Larry On 11/3/2012 4:32 PM, Charles P. Steinmetz wrote: This has probably already been posted more than once, but if anyone is still looking for a description of the new WWVB modulation scheme: http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2651.pdf (Sept. 2012) ... -- Best wishes, Larry McDavid W6FUB Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Best wishes, Larry McDavid W6FUB Anaheim, California (SE of Los Angeles, near Disneyland) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation
On 11/22/12 12:12 PM, Larry McDavid wrote: I realize this modulation scheme change is perceived as a sensitive subject. But, really, since the full scheme is fully disclosed no company has a monopoly on its use. Actually, I think the developing company does have patents on some of the receiver implementations. You can probably design around them. My question is, will this new scheme offer enough advantages to merit the production of commercial equipment to use it, and ultimately whether low-cost equipment will be sufficiently advantageous to merit its design and production in volume like the typical WWVB digital clocks prevalent today. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation
I believe they have a design that is working in silicon. If so, that's a $ million or more head start. That, to me, is a monopoly because any other entrant to the market would have to amortize that expense. Furthermore, there is the issue of patent suits, even if you can design around their technology. YMMV, -John = On 11/22/12 12:12 PM, Larry McDavid wrote: I realize this modulation scheme change is perceived as a sensitive subject. But, really, since the full scheme is fully disclosed no company has a monopoly on its use. Actually, I think the developing company does have patents on some of the receiver implementations. You can probably design around them. My question is, will this new scheme offer enough advantages to merit the production of commercial equipment to use it, and ultimately whether low-cost equipment will be sufficiently advantageous to merit its design and production in volume like the typical WWVB digital clocks prevalent today. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation
jim...@earthlink.net said: Actually, I think the developing company does have patents on some of the receiver implementations. You can probably design around them. What's the fine print in this area? Does NIST have any PR blurbs covering patents? Common sense, politics, and patents makes for a horrible mess. I think I'd be happy if the developing company got a head start. That could be a reasonable trade for a lot of engineering/support during testing. I think I'd be unhappy if they got a patent on a receiving technique that was obvious to one skilled in the art (or whatever the magic patent phrase is) after you looked at the description of the modulation/encoding technique. That's assuming that NIST didn't get a broad free-to-use license for that patent for listening to WWVB. Another way to view this mess is the general topic of patents in standards. WWVB isn't in the same class of standards as IETF/IEEE/ANSI/ISO type documents, but given that it's a government monopoly, it's as good (or better) than any other standard. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB new modulation
Hal, It is worse than that ! John P Lowe, Broadcast Manager for NIST, stated to me that HE was the person who invented the new modulation scheme. If that is the case then it belongs to all of us. AND that is, precisely, why they are publishing this modulation scheme. What I find interesting is this private company started up while JP Lowe was inventing this modulation scheme and requesting patents at the same time. Does the word COLLUSION come to mind ? Yet JP lowe claims he has no stake or interest in this new company. WELL, I am having a hard time with that very point. Equally interesting is that no public input was sought prior to considering this modulation scheme. Why is that you ask ? Most likely because everyone that actually uses 60 KHz for what it was intended for would be raising hell about it. What about the public ? This new scheme is suppose to allow for additional services. What could you possibly add that would be of advantage that is not available in a number of easier methods like AM/FM radio and TV for disseminating information. This, of course, completely ignores the Internet. As it is now, the public buys WWVB clocks because they really believe the damn thing is accurate, which it is truly not. So, to cut down on the controversy, they wait till they are ready to do it and then just spring on us like it is a done deal. As most people are rather passive in nature, they knew no major negative fallout would occur. Fallout being like a large group of people petitioning their representatives against it and so forth. Making it worse is the fact that all the major time and frequency companies abandoned their 60 KHz equipment line in favor of GPS. Sure GPS is better than 60 KHz, but one of these days something is going to f**kup the GPS system enough to cause problems. They already got rid of LORAN and they will probably find a way to get rid VOR, so flying will become an F ticket ride. This modulation scheme is just another blunder, not unlike Lightsquared, manipulating the public TEAT to pay for it. Oh, just my two cents, BillWB6BNQ Hal Murray wrote: jim...@earthlink.net said: Actually, I think the developing company does have patents on some of the receiver implementations. You can probably design around them. What's the fine print in this area? Does NIST have any PR blurbs covering patents? Common sense, politics, and patents makes for a horrible mess. I think I'd be happy if the developing company got a head start. That could be a reasonable trade for a lot of engineering/support during testing. I think I'd be unhappy if they got a patent on a receiving technique that was obvious to one skilled in the art (or whatever the magic patent phrase is) after you looked at the description of the modulation/encoding technique. That's assuming that NIST didn't get a broad free-to-use license for that patent for listening to WWVB. Another way to view this mess is the general topic of patents in standards. WWVB isn't in the same class of standards as IETF/IEEE/ANSI/ISO type documents, but given that it's a government monopoly, it's as good (or better) than any other standard. -- These are my opinions. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB new modulation scheme monograph
This has probably already been posted more than once, but if anyone is still looking for a description of the new WWVB modulation scheme: http://tf.boulder.nist.gov/general/pdf/2651.pdf (Sept. 2012) Best regards, Charles ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme...
On 10/26/2012 08:26 PM, Peter Gottlieb wrote: I've used the HP 3586 for measuring AM carrier frequencies as well as my Tek 495P (both referenced to Rb) for higher frequencies such as air band. Some carriers are dead nuts on while others are quite far off (at least to my mind) although I've never found one outside of its required tolerance. It seems possible to measure pretty accurately with these instruments, at least on AM or CW signals, but not sure the best way for FM. I've played with the HP 53310A but haven't set it up for precise measurements yet, or really studied what all it is capable of. Peter On 10/26/2012 11:10 PM, Orin Eman wrote: Looks like they _might_ have been 30 _Hz_ out... I had to tune to 1188.97 to get a 1kHz beat in upper sideband mode a few minutes ago but they are within 10Hz of where they are supposed to be now - according to my radio anyway (I just checked the radio against WWV at 5MHz and it was less than 10Hz out). Orin, KJ7HQ. On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Not to mention attention from the guy who *should* be 3 channels over … Bob On Oct 26, 2012, at 10:31 PM, Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net wrote: It would attract a lot of attention from people not finding it at the right place on the dial. On 10/26/2012 10:09 PM, Max Robinson wrote: The frequency of 1190 indicates an AM station. I assume you mean 30 Hz. An error of 30 KHz would attract a lot of attention from Charley. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme... I have my 3586b slaved to my Thunderbolt along with a Flex-1500 radio, Racal-Dana counter, Advantest Spectrum analyzer and Gigatronics signal generator. You might be interested to know KEX 1190 in Portland is about 30 kHz low. At least they aren't spewing IBOC lately. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5355 - Release Date: 10/26/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5355 - Release Date: 10/26/12 1189.9698 30 Hz low. I was confused by Bush's 500 trillion tax cut. WWV on 5 reads correct within 0.1 Hz on my CPS locked 3586b+ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme...
The frequency of 1190 indicates an AM station. I assume you mean 30 Hz. An error of 30 KHz would attract a lot of attention from Charley. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme... I have my 3586b slaved to my Thunderbolt along with a Flex-1500 radio, Racal-Dana counter, Advantest Spectrum analyzer and Gigatronics signal generator. You might be interested to know KEX 1190 in Portland is about 30 kHz low. At least they aren't spewing IBOC lately. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme...
It would attract a lot of attention from people not finding it at the right place on the dial. On 10/26/2012 10:09 PM, Max Robinson wrote: The frequency of 1190 indicates an AM station. I assume you mean 30 Hz. An error of 30 KHz would attract a lot of attention from Charley. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme... I have my 3586b slaved to my Thunderbolt along with a Flex-1500 radio, Racal-Dana counter, Advantest Spectrum analyzer and Gigatronics signal generator. You might be interested to know KEX 1190 in Portland is about 30 kHz low. At least they aren't spewing IBOC lately. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5355 - Release Date: 10/26/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme...
Hi Not to mention attention from the guy who *should* be 3 channels over … Bob On Oct 26, 2012, at 10:31 PM, Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net wrote: It would attract a lot of attention from people not finding it at the right place on the dial. On 10/26/2012 10:09 PM, Max Robinson wrote: The frequency of 1190 indicates an AM station. I assume you mean 30 Hz. An error of 30 KHz would attract a lot of attention from Charley. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme... I have my 3586b slaved to my Thunderbolt along with a Flex-1500 radio, Racal-Dana counter, Advantest Spectrum analyzer and Gigatronics signal generator. You might be interested to know KEX 1190 in Portland is about 30 kHz low. At least they aren't spewing IBOC lately. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5355 - Release Date: 10/26/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme...
Looks like they _might_ have been 30 _Hz_ out... I had to tune to 1188.97 to get a 1kHz beat in upper sideband mode a few minutes ago but they are within 10Hz of where they are supposed to be now - according to my radio anyway (I just checked the radio against WWV at 5MHz and it was less than 10Hz out). Orin, KJ7HQ. On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Not to mention attention from the guy who *should* be 3 channels over … Bob On Oct 26, 2012, at 10:31 PM, Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net wrote: It would attract a lot of attention from people not finding it at the right place on the dial. On 10/26/2012 10:09 PM, Max Robinson wrote: The frequency of 1190 indicates an AM station. I assume you mean 30 Hz. An error of 30 KHz would attract a lot of attention from Charley. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme... I have my 3586b slaved to my Thunderbolt along with a Flex-1500 radio, Racal-Dana counter, Advantest Spectrum analyzer and Gigatronics signal generator. You might be interested to know KEX 1190 in Portland is about 30 kHz low. At least they aren't spewing IBOC lately. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5355 - Release Date: 10/26/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme...
I've used the HP 3586 for measuring AM carrier frequencies as well as my Tek 495P (both referenced to Rb) for higher frequencies such as air band. Some carriers are dead nuts on while others are quite far off (at least to my mind) although I've never found one outside of its required tolerance. It seems possible to measure pretty accurately with these instruments, at least on AM or CW signals, but not sure the best way for FM. I've played with the HP 53310A but haven't set it up for precise measurements yet, or really studied what all it is capable of. Peter On 10/26/2012 11:10 PM, Orin Eman wrote: Looks like they _might_ have been 30 _Hz_ out... I had to tune to 1188.97 to get a 1kHz beat in upper sideband mode a few minutes ago but they are within 10Hz of where they are supposed to be now - according to my radio anyway (I just checked the radio against WWV at 5MHz and it was less than 10Hz out). Orin, KJ7HQ. On Fri, Oct 26, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Bob Camp li...@rtty.us wrote: Hi Not to mention attention from the guy who *should* be 3 channels over … Bob On Oct 26, 2012, at 10:31 PM, Peter Gottlieb n...@verizon.net wrote: It would attract a lot of attention from people not finding it at the right place on the dial. On 10/26/2012 10:09 PM, Max Robinson wrote: The frequency of 1190 indicates an AM station. I assume you mean 30 Hz. An error of 30 KHz would attract a lot of attention from Charley. Regards. Max. K 4 O DS. Email: m...@maxsmusicplace.com Transistor site http://www.funwithtransistors.net Vacuum tube site: http://www.funwithtubes.net Woodworking site http://www.angelfire.com/electronic/funwithtubes/Woodworking/wwindex.html Music site: http://www.maxsmusicplace.com To subscribe to the fun with transistors group send an email to. funwithtransistors-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with tubes group send an email to, funwithtubes-subscr...@yahoogroups.com To subscribe to the fun with wood group send a blank email to funwithwood-subscr...@yahoogroups.com - Original Message - From: Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Friday, October 26, 2012 12:14 AM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme... I have my 3586b slaved to my Thunderbolt along with a Flex-1500 radio, Racal-Dana counter, Advantest Spectrum analyzer and Gigatronics signal generator. You might be interested to know KEX 1190 in Portland is about 30 kHz low. At least they aren't spewing IBOC lately. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5355 - Release Date: 10/26/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5355 - Release Date: 10/26/12 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
Tom I shifted to 60 Khz using a synth Gen. The 60 Khz for the encoder comes from another sig gen and they are all locked to an Rb. Yes thats a sucker price, at least for me. Regards Paul. On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:05 PM, Tom Miller tmil...@skylinenet.net wrote: Hello Paul, I guess you tested it at 57 kHz? Were you able to get it to work with your simulator at the normal frequency? Does anyone have details on the test mode? I just picked up $3 worth. Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? Jameco had them on sale for 20 cents each so I purchased some. Moved the clock up frequency for 60 Khz and injected the 60Khz BPSK. (I built a simulator) It did not track and in general produced noise. I understand you can use 2 frequencies to drive it and I tried both from synth gens. I was looking at the RDS decoders and the data seemed to be differential. Set it aside at that point. I am curious as to why it did not work. Like everyone here would be great if it worked Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: Paul, I'm trying to understand your reference to 'differential BPSK' all the RDS references I've looked at indicate a 180 degree phase shift just like WWVB. I'm thinking that differential and antipodal are just different words for the same thing Regards, Dale Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2012, at 10:03 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Because it use differential BPSK. I have a number of them and was trying it. There is a test pin that might make it useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme...
If I sent these thoughts before, pardon me as I'm suffering from CRS Syndrom. Part of the normal work I provide is off-air measurements of broadcast stations. Would you believe, they pay me to do this! Anyway, I measure AM carriers, FM carriers, and TV, both analog and digital pilots, as well as other stuff. For FM stations I also measure any subcarrier including the RDBS signal at 57 kHz. My method for measuring is described Here: http://www.k5cm.com/k6OQK%20FMT%20NEW.htm The methodology described here is used for primarily for AM Broadcast signals, but can be used for FM subcarriers also. Some time ago I tried measuring the RDS signal in the broadcast FM baseband With my trusty 3586B looking at the baseband of my FM receiver I tried tuning the 3586B SLM to 57 kHz and looked at the resultant 15625 Hz I.F. out of the 3586B as described in the above article. It was a useless mess. Due to the nature of the 57 kHz RDS modulation, which is not FM, I just couldn't get a meaningful measurement. Rats! One day while poking around and looking at the 57 kHz RDS signal, rather than using 20 Hz bandwidth, which is really about -3 dB at 6 Hz, I used the 3.1 kHz bandwidth position. Lo and behold, I now had a very well defined display that looked very similar to the eye pattern used for examining digital transmissions. I was allowing both sidebands into the 3586B and was now able to measure down to milliHertz resolution with no problem. All I had to do was adjust my 3336B (read the above linked article) to get the pattern to stand still as either a circle or and X on the scope. I still need to dig into this a bit farther because the RDS signal really does not have a carrier as such. It has the two sidebands depending on the phase shift determined by the data. However, I do know that RDS generators that are GPS referenced give me a stationary pattern when I'm tuned to 57000.000 Hz. The RDBS signal is supposed to be locked to the third harmonic of the 19 kHz pilot, which has a +/- 2 Hz tolerance. The truth is that they're not always locked, and I know of several stations that do not feed a Pilot reference to the RDBS generator. FM broadcast RDS injection levels are typically about 2-5 percent of +/- 75 kHz deviation, but it is not a FM signal when you look in the FM baseband. Anyway, just a thought that maybe if you look at the WWVB signal with a wider bandwidth it might be interesting. I really need to take the WWVB loop off of my Symetricom 8170 and hook it to my 3586B SLM and see for myself. For what it's worth, Burt, K6OQK Burt I. Weiner Associates Broadcast Technical Services Glendale, California U.S.A. b...@att.net www.biwa.cc K6OQK ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation scheme...
I have my 3586b slaved to my Thunderbolt along with a Flex-1500 radio, Racal-Dana counter, Advantest Spectrum analyzer and Gigatronics signal generator. You might be interested to know KEX 1190 in Portland is about 30 kHz low. At least they aren't spewing IBOC lately. -- Chuck Forsberg WA7KGX N2469R c...@omen.com www.omen.com Developer of Industrial ZMODEM(Tm) for Embedded Applications Omen Technology Inc The High Reliability Software 10255 NW Old Cornelius Pass Portland OR 97231 503-614-0430 ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
Hello Paul, I guess you tested it at 57 kHz? Were you able to get it to work with your simulator at the normal frequency? Does anyone have details on the test mode? I just picked up $3 worth. Regards, Tom - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:08 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? Jameco had them on sale for 20 cents each so I purchased some. Moved the clock up frequency for 60 Khz and injected the 60Khz BPSK. (I built a simulator) It did not track and in general produced noise. I understand you can use 2 frequencies to drive it and I tried both from synth gens. I was looking at the RDS decoders and the data seemed to be differential. Set it aside at that point. I am curious as to why it did not work. Like everyone here would be great if it worked Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: Paul, I'm trying to understand your reference to 'differential BPSK' all the RDS references I've looked at indicate a 180 degree phase shift just like WWVB. I'm thinking that differential and antipodal are just different words for the same thing Regards, Dale Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2012, at 10:03 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Because it use differential BPSK. I have a number of them and was trying it. There is a test pin that might make it useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
OK, According to the Phillips original data sheets quick reference chart the chip wants to see around 1mV of input signal. The output will not be a digital data stream with ones and zeros corresponding to the phase of the input. Instead, from what I can glean from the datasheet, it will be a pulse of period 60KHz/48 every time the phase flips. Additionally there are outputs of the costas loop recovered carrier, recovered carrier divided by 48 and a quality indicator which I believe indicates that the loop is 'locked up' I believe that to recover the data stream (assuming there's a good signal etc.) you just need to feed the output into a toggle flip flop. The polarity of the data at this point would be ambiguous and some other aspect of the encoding (framing sync, checksum etc.) would have to be used to establish proper data polarity. It seems there are several possible uses of this chip. It might make a good start on the 'brains' of an automatic phase flipper to be inserted into boat anchor WWVB based frequency standards. The 60KHz output could form the basis for an 'on the cheap' scratch built frequency standard. I hope to get my chips pretty soon so I can see if any of this is really real. Dale NV8U -Original Message- From: paul swed Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 10:29 PM To: Tom Miller ; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? I was giving it 1000uv. Thats why I say it needs a lot. On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Tom Miller tmil...@skylinenet.net wrote: - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? To switch correctly at the zero point I sample the plus of the secondary with a LM339 comparator (only using 1 section) and feed that to a SXB micro running at 40 Mhz. Detect the zero and switch if I want. The micro programs in basic and screams along. So I can flip at any rate or create patterns as easily as I can think them up. Its seriously dumb, simple, and stupid. But it lets me run tests without waiting for wwvb. I do attenuate the output signal to about 60 uv. Generally what I see on the east coast during the day. ==**== Hi Paul, Reading the spec, I think the chip wants to see about 500 UV RMS. Is that correct? At three cents each, it sure would be nice to find another use for it. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? (Dale J. Robertson)
Dale - To your question re BPSK and DPSK. In both modes the phase shift is 180 degrees. Straight PSK has the issue of determining the 1's from the 0's, at the receiver as there is no phase reference. To avoid this DPSK encodes the the serial data stream prior to the bi-phase modulator. As I recall (at 1 AM) the method is like this. If the present bit to be sent is a 1 the phase of the carrier is inverted. If it is a zero the phase is not inverted. This is easily sorted out in the receiver using a flip flop and an XOR. However recovery of the carrier must occur before decoding of the data stream and is done the same way for both - at least in classical receivers. Squaring Loop or Costas Loop. -john k6iql ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
Paul, I would also be interested in how you built your simulator. I'm considering building a simple one myself. I'll probably have mine just toggle the phase every 100 ms initially. Dale -Original Message- From: paul swed Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:08 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? Jameco had them on sale for 20 cents each so I purchased some. Moved the clock up frequency for 60 Khz and injected the 60Khz BPSK. (I built a simulator) It did not track and in general produced noise. I understand you can use 2 frequencies to drive it and I tried both from synth gens. I was looking at the RDS decoders and the data seemed to be differential. Set it aside at that point. I am curious as to why it did not work. Like everyone here would be great if it worked Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: Paul, I'm trying to understand your reference to 'differential BPSK' all the RDS references I've looked at indicate a 180 degree phase shift just like WWVB. I'm thinking that differential and antipodal are just different words for the same thing Regards, Dale Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2012, at 10:03 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Because it use differential BPSK. I have a number of them and was trying it. There is a test pin that might make it useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? (Dale J. Robertson)
On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 02:16:19AM -0400, johncr...@aol.com wrote: Dale - To your question re BPSK and DPSK. In both modes the phase shift is 180 degrees. Straight PSK has the issue of determining the 1's from the 0's, at the receiver as there is no phase reference. To avoid this DPSK encodes the the serial data stream prior to the bi-phase modulator. As I recall (at 1 AM) the method is like this. If the present bit to be sent is a 1 the phase of the carrier is inverted. If it is a zero the phase is not inverted. This is easily sorted out in the receiver using a flip flop and an XOR. I might add one note. Non differential PSK has a slight BER advantage with very weak signals as differential PSK decoding causes TWO bits to be in error in the recovered data if the phase state of a bit is incorrectly determined by the receiver and the next and previous bits were correctly determined. For this reason most satellite nPSK modulations use absolute encoding and determine phase in initial lockon by looking for a phase which causes the inner FEC to work (eg produce valid corrected data). There have been demodulators for differential nPSK that work by correlating the last bit with the current bit using some kind of delay line. Don't typically work as well with weak signals though. -- Dave Emery N1PRE/AE, d...@dieconsulting.com DIE Consulting, Weston, Mass 02493 An empty zombie mind with a forlorn barely readable weatherbeaten 'For Rent' sign still vainly flapping outside on the weed encrusted pole - in celebration of what could have been, but wasn't and is not to be now either. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
Dale I guess a couple of comments to you and everyone. I am not an expert on the chip. I downloaded what was available and thats not all that much. So if someone has the experience to know whats actually correct and how to turn this magical 20 cent chip into something useful, I am all ready to hear the answer. I do not believe that the system uses a varicap or VTO to tune things instead I will speculate they drop cycles in the count chain. But thats simply a guess. No matter what I simply could not get the system to put out the 1s and 0s I was putting in. But spent only a few nights on it because the reality is its only a part of the answer. The costas loop is the nice piece. But ahead of that it needs a somewhat healthy signal to drive it so there is more to the puzzle like agc and such. To the easier part of your 2 questions. The BPSK modulator was reasonable. It can be created a lot of ways but we are talking 60Khz and that opens up things like opamps etc. But real simple. I take a 60 khz sig generator, locked to a RB reference at 1 volt pp. Run that to a xformer primary. These are radioshack class they work great at 60 Khz who would have thought. The secondary center tap is grounded and I select plus or minus phase with a CD 4016 analog switch. Using a single supply everything is biased at 1/2 VCC and then isolation caps for the signals. To switch correctly at the zero point I sample the plus of the secondary with a LM339 comparator (only using 1 section) and feed that to a SXB micro running at 40 Mhz. Detect the zero and switch if I want. The micro programs in basic and screams along. So I can flip at any rate or create patterns as easily as I can think them up. Its seriously dumb, simple, and stupid. But it lets me run tests without waiting for wwvb. I do attenuate the output signal to about 60 uv. Generally what I see on the east coast during the day. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 9:18 AM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: Paul, I would also be interested in how you built your simulator. I'm considering building a simple one myself. I'll probably have mine just toggle the phase every 100 ms initially. Dale -Original Message- From: paul swed Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2012 11:08 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? Jameco had them on sale for 20 cents each so I purchased some. Moved the clock up frequency for 60 Khz and injected the 60Khz BPSK. (I built a simulator) It did not track and in general produced noise. I understand you can use 2 frequencies to drive it and I tried both from synth gens. I was looking at the RDS decoders and the data seemed to be differential. Set it aside at that point. I am curious as to why it did not work. Like everyone here would be great if it worked Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: Paul, I'm trying to understand your reference to 'differential BPSK' all the RDS references I've looked at indicate a 180 degree phase shift just like WWVB. I'm thinking that differential and antipodal are just different words for the same thing Regards, Dale Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2012, at 10:03 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Because it use differential BPSK. I have a number of them and was trying it. There is a test pin that might make it useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/**mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
- Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? To switch correctly at the zero point I sample the plus of the secondary with a LM339 comparator (only using 1 section) and feed that to a SXB micro running at 40 Mhz. Detect the zero and switch if I want. The micro programs in basic and screams along. So I can flip at any rate or create patterns as easily as I can think them up. Its seriously dumb, simple, and stupid. But it lets me run tests without waiting for wwvb. I do attenuate the output signal to about 60 uv. Generally what I see on the east coast during the day. Hi Paul, Reading the spec, I think the chip wants to see about 500 UV RMS. Is that correct? At three cents each, it sure would be nice to find another use for it. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
I was giving it 1000uv. Thats why I say it needs a lot. On Mon, Oct 22, 2012 at 9:00 PM, Tom Miller tmil...@skylinenet.net wrote: - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, October 22, 2012 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ? To switch correctly at the zero point I sample the plus of the secondary with a LM339 comparator (only using 1 section) and feed that to a SXB micro running at 40 Mhz. Detect the zero and switch if I want. The micro programs in basic and screams along. So I can flip at any rate or create patterns as easily as I can think them up. Its seriously dumb, simple, and stupid. But it lets me run tests without waiting for wwvb. I do attenuate the output signal to about 60 uv. Generally what I see on the east coast during the day. ==**== Hi Paul, Reading the spec, I think the chip wants to see about 500 UV RMS. Is that correct? At three cents each, it sure would be nice to find another use for it. __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
Because it use differential BPSK. I have a number of them and was trying it. There is a test pin that might make it useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
Hi Dale: Is it as simple as changing the clock to operate at 60 kHz? Have Fun, Brooke Clarke http://www.PRC68.com http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html Dale J. Robertson wrote: While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
Paul, I'm trying to understand your reference to 'differential BPSK' all the RDS references I've looked at indicate a 180 degree phase shift just like WWVB. I'm thinking that differential and antipodal are just different words for the same thing Regards, Dale Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2012, at 10:03 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Because it use differential BPSK. I have a number of them and was trying it. There is a test pin that might make it useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nutshttps://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
Jameco had them on sale for 20 cents each so I purchased some. Moved the clock up frequency for 60 Khz and injected the 60Khz BPSK. (I built a simulator) It did not track and in general produced noise. I understand you can use 2 frequencies to drive it and I tried both from synth gens. I was looking at the RDS decoders and the data seemed to be differential. Set it aside at that point. I am curious as to why it did not work. Like everyone here would be great if it worked Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: Paul, I'm trying to understand your reference to 'differential BPSK' all the RDS references I've looked at indicate a 180 degree phase shift just like WWVB. I'm thinking that differential and antipodal are just different words for the same thing Regards, Dale Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2012, at 10:03 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Because it use differential BPSK. I have a number of them and was trying it. There is a test pin that might make it useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation five cent demodulator / carrier regenerator ?
Paul, Did you move the frequency up by driving it with a function generator or by using a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal? I'm thinking that maybe the quadrature phase lock is accomplished by an internal varacter or some other mechanism for 'pulling' the on-chip oscillator. That wouldn't work if you were injecting the clock Dale Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2012, at 11:08 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Jameco had them on sale for 20 cents each so I purchased some. Moved the clock up frequency for 60 Khz and injected the 60Khz BPSK. (I built a simulator) It did not track and in general produced noise. I understand you can use 2 frequencies to drive it and I tried both from synth gens. I was looking at the RDS decoders and the data seemed to be differential. Set it aside at that point. I am curious as to why it did not work. Like everyone here would be great if it worked Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 10:55 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: Paul, I'm trying to understand your reference to 'differential BPSK' all the RDS references I've looked at indicate a 180 degree phase shift just like WWVB. I'm thinking that differential and antipodal are just different words for the same thing Regards, Dale Sent from my iPhone On Oct 21, 2012, at 10:03 PM, paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com wrote: Because it use differential BPSK. I have a number of them and was trying it. There is a test pin that might make it useful. Regards Paul WB8TSL On Sun, Oct 21, 2012 at 9:14 PM, Dale J. Robertson d...@nap-us.com wrote: While looking for other stuff I came across the data sheet for the NXP Semi SAA6579. The chip is a purpose built demodulator for RDS (which utilises a 57 KHz ABPSK subcarrier on FM broadcast that is) used for traffic, song info etc. This chip has an anti-aliasing front end low pass filter and an 8th order bandpass filter followed by a costas loop and provides a phase synchronous regenerated carrier. What's interesting is that the switched cap bandpass filter and the synchronous detector are both driven by clocks derived from a local crystal oscillator which is spec'd at 4.332 or 8.664 MHz (76 or 152 X carrier chosen by a mode select pin) I'm thinking it should be possible to use a 4.56 or 9.12 MHz crystal or external clock to use this chip as-is on 60 KHz. Have a look at the data sheet and tell me why I'm full of it. Jameco is closing out these chips in DIP-16 at a nickel apiece, $3.00/hundred. Dale NV8U __**_ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/** mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] WWVB New Modulation Scheme Compatibility
I guess that will mean that my bullet proof Tracor 599J will become a paper weight. I have a couple of units that were surplussed years ago from the USNO. Great receivers. Sam W3OHM ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
