Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Hi The 2.x firmware is the magic that lets it run down to HF type frequencies. You really do not want to upgrade the firmware. It would be very nice to find a back shelf somewhere with a set of original manuals for the 2.x version. Now if it just had a SR-620 counter built into it Bob On Feb 2, 2010, at 1:20 AM, Don Latham wrote: Oh, forgot. My firmware appears to be something like A.02.4 or something like that, and the manuals are A.05.0 or so. another possible problem. Don - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@cq.nu To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Hi The big question in my mind about these is how well they do below 30 MHz. Until I know I can trust them it down there, I'm not selling very much stuff. I have yet to find a data sheet from before 2000 when they shipped with the sub-800 MHz stuff enabled. I get the impression that the E8285's never quite did as well below 30 MHz as the 8920's do. Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Don Latham wrote: Hi Bob. Display shows use, definitely, but I can see info over the whole tube. I have a couple of things to do before I can start the learning curve, but am looking forward to using it. I'll have a bunch of test stuff for sale if this thing works out ;-) Don Bob Camp Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment -Memory cards
Hi Don, Congratulations on the E8285A. I've an 8924C that does me nicely and came with a bunch of other stuff including two 10811A's and a crystal impedance meter (gotta keep on-topic) for £300 (~$500). Another useful instrument in the range that can sometimes be picked up cheaply is the 8922X if you get the 06 or 106 option you get a nice 1GHz digital SA with TG, a CW RF generator and low frequency scope. The GSM test stuff is an unwanted extra. A bit big, but better than a 141T setup. I think you will find that the E8285A is the same as the 8924C and uses non-volatile RAM cards, not flash. These cards are rare now and have CMOS ram and a lithium coin cell. You MIGHT be able to read a flash card, but I'm pretty certain you can't write to them. Robert G8RPI. --- On Mon, 1/2/10, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Date: Monday, 1 February, 2010, 22:34 Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Bird wattmeters, such as the model 43 thruline, are far from accurate devices. They are spec'd to be +/- 5% of the full scale reading of the installed slug. That means for a 100W slug, the error band is +/- 5W! If you happen to read 20W on the meter, the error band says your true power could be anywhere from 15 to 25 watts! As a comparison, an HP 432A wattmeter can achieve an ultimate accuracy of +/-0.2% +/- 10uW. -Chuck Harris Don Latham wrote: Amtronix did tell me that the power measurements were off, according to some folks who had compared them to Birds. Of course the E's could be calibrated. I don't have much below 30 MHz at present either. I sense that there may be enough around to warrant a Yahoo or Google group??? Don - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@cq.nu To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Hi The big question in my mind about these is how well they do below 30 MHz. Until I know I can trust them it down there, I'm not selling very much stuff. I have yet to find a data sheet from before 2000 when they shipped with the sub-800 MHz stuff enabled. I get the impression that the E8285's never quite did as well below 30 MHz as the 8920's do. Bob ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment -Memory cards
At 07:42 AM 2/2/2010 , Robert Atkinson wrote: than a 141T setup. I think you will find that the E8285A is the same as the 8924C and uses non-volatile RAM cards, not flash. These cards are rare now and have CMOS ram and a lithium coin cell. You MIGHT be able to read a flash card, but I'm pretty certain you can't write to them. If you're looking for PCMCIA SRAM cards, they're also used with vintage Fanuc CNC controls. You might end up paying a premium, but they are out there. (On the other side, I'm using an el-cheapo PCMCIA / PCI adapter in a desktop PC, with the stock XP drivers. No problems yet.) -- newell N5TNL ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment -Memory cards
Hi The memory in the E8285A has a lithium cell associated with it. One of my big questions is weather the firmware goes away when the coin cell dies (battery backed SRAM) or if the firmware is in something a bit more robust. Hopefully it's sitting on the porch when I get home tonight -- 141T ... how many do you need in addition to an E8285 ... all sorts of questions to be answered. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Robert Atkinson Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2010 8:42 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment -Memory cards Hi Don, Congratulations on the E8285A. I've an 8924C that does me nicely and came with a bunch of other stuff including two 10811A's and a crystal impedance meter (gotta keep on-topic) for £300 (~$500). Another useful instrument in the range that can sometimes be picked up cheaply is the 8922X if you get the 06 or 106 option you get a nice 1GHz digital SA with TG, a CW RF generator and low frequency scope. The GSM test stuff is an unwanted extra. A bit big, but better than a 141T setup. I think you will find that the E8285A is the same as the 8924C and uses non-volatile RAM cards, not flash. These cards are rare now and have CMOS ram and a lithium coin cell. You MIGHT be able to read a flash card, but I'm pretty certain you can't write to them. Robert G8RPI. --- On Mon, 1/2/10, Don Latham d...@montana.com wrote: From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Date: Monday, 1 February, 2010, 22:34 Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Hi Bob: I finally figured that out. I had the manuals printed, anyway. kinda added to the cost, but... Don Bob Camp Hi The 2.x firmware is the magic that lets it run down to HF type frequencies. You really do not want to upgrade the firmware. It would be very nice to find a back shelf somewhere with a set of original manuals for the 2.x version. Now if it just had a SR-620 counter built into it Bob On Feb 2, 2010, at 1:20 AM, Don Latham wrote: Oh, forgot. My firmware appears to be something like A.02.4 or something like that, and the manuals are A.05.0 or so. another possible problem. Don - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@cq.nu To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Hi The big question in my mind about these is how well they do below 30 MHz. Until I know I can trust them it down there, I'm not selling very much stuff. I have yet to find a data sheet from before 2000 when they shipped with the sub-800 MHz stuff enabled. I get the impression that the E8285's never quite did as well below 30 MHz as the 8920's do. Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Don Latham wrote: Hi Bob. Display shows use, definitely, but I can see info over the whole tube. I have a couple of things to do before I can start the learning curve, but am looking forward to using it. I'll have a bunch of test stuff for sale if this thing works out ;-) Don Bob Camp Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too) to reflect the fact that no single instrument is universal, with possibly one exception: my favorite hand held DMM is a Fluke 8060A, but I am sure some people will have another favorite :) Don't start spending what little money you have until you know what you need. If you just need to spend money, may I interest you in a wonderful business opportunity in Nigeria? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:35:22 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too) to reflect the fact that no single instrument is universal, with possibly one exception: my favorite hand held DMM is a Fluke 8060A, but I am sure some people will have another favorite :) Don't start spending what little money you have until you know what you need. If you just need to spend money, may I interest you in a wonderful business opportunity in Nigeria? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:35:22 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
sounds like you are off to a good start. the 5345A is a great counter other then size and the fan, check the Yahoo Tektronix group for changing all the nasty caps in the 2465, they have a habit of failing and destroying the circuit board. I believe someone even has the parts list of what to replace. As to a signal source the two biggies are noise and upper freq, for the SA if you want higher the 2-3 Ghz it is going to cost a lot, lot more. Mine is based on the HP 7/MMS and for now I'm happy with the 2.9 Ghz front end. .. join the Yahoo Tek and HP groups and have fun ! -pete On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 10:35 AM, John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com wrote: I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too) to reflect the fact that no single instrument is universal, with possibly one exception: my favorite hand held DMM is a Fluke 8060A, but I am sure some people will have another favorite :) Don't start spending what little money you have until you know what
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Hi Bob. Display shows use, definitely, but I can see info over the whole tube. I have a couple of things to do before I can start the learning curve, but am looking forward to using it. I'll have a bunch of test stuff for sale if this thing works out ;-) Don Bob Camp Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Hi The big question in my mind about these is how well they do below 30 MHz. Until I know I can trust them it down there, I'm not selling very much stuff. I have yet to find a data sheet from before 2000 when they shipped with the sub-800 MHz stuff enabled. I get the impression that the E8285's never quite did as well below 30 MHz as the 8920's do. Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Don Latham wrote: Hi Bob. Display shows use, definitely, but I can see info over the whole tube. I have a couple of things to do before I can start the learning curve, but am looking forward to using it. I'll have a bunch of test stuff for sale if this thing works out ;-) Don Bob Camp Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
If goggle HP 8285a spec, you will get HP spec which say this unit is 800 Mhz up. The 8920, 8921, 8025 will go down to ham freq. Regards, Dr. Joseph G. Palsa P.E. Director, Sales Marketing Clary Corporation Phone: 888-442-5279 Phone: 804-674-0364 Fax: 804-674-0714 Cell: 804-350-2665 jpa...@clary.com djpa...@yahoo.com k3...@aol.com k3...@arrl.net This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and may contain privileged, proprietary, or confidential information. The information may also contain technical data subject to export control laws. In a message dated 2/1/2010 8:42:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, li...@cq.nu writes: Hi The big question in my mind about these is how well they do below 30 MHz. Until I know I can trust them it down there, I'm not selling very much stuff. I have yet to find a data sheet from before 2000 when they shipped with the sub-800 MHz stuff enabled. I get the impression that the E8285's never quite did as well below 30 MHz as the 8920's do. Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Don Latham wrote: Hi Bob. Display shows use, definitely, but I can see info over the whole tube. I have a couple of things to do before I can start the learning curve, but am looking forward to using it. I'll have a bunch of test stuff for sale if this thing works out ;-) Don Bob Camp Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
The early production E8285A units operate all RF functions down to 100KHz. You have to ask the seller to verify what he's offering operates this way. Pete Rawson On Feb 1, 2010, at 8:18 PM, k3...@aol.com wrote: If goggle HP 8285a spec, you will get HP spec which say this unit is 800 Mhz up. The 8920, 8921, 8025 will go down to ham freq. Regards, Dr. Joseph G. Palsa P.E. Director, Sales Marketing Clary Corporation Phone: 888-442-5279 Phone: 804-674-0364 Fax: 804-674-0714 Cell: 804-350-2665 jpa...@clary.com djpa...@yahoo.com k3...@aol.com k3...@arrl.net This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and may contain privileged, proprietary, or confidential information. The information may also contain technical data subject to export control laws. In a message dated 2/1/2010 8:42:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, li...@cq.nu writes: Hi The big question in my mind about these is how well they do below 30 MHz. Until I know I can trust them it down there, I'm not selling very much stuff. I have yet to find a data sheet from before 2000 when they shipped with the sub-800 MHz stuff enabled. I get the impression that the E8285's never quite did as well below 30 MHz as the 8920's do. Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Don Latham wrote: Hi Bob. Display shows use, definitely, but I can see info over the whole tube. I have a couple of things to do before I can start the learning curve, but am looking forward to using it. I'll have a bunch of test stuff for sale if this thing works out ;-) Don Bob Camp Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
HI I agree. The 800 MHz spec was all I could find. That's the only spec that Google seems to know about. Back before some point like mid 2001, there was a different spec on these boxes. They went down to much lower frequencies. That information is still preserved in the repair manual. Unfortunately, it does not give a full detail set of specifications for the earlier box. The boxes Amtronix is / was selling have the old firmware and modules in them. They will go to the old wider frequency range. Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 10:18 PM, k3...@aol.com wrote: If goggle HP 8285a spec, you will get HP spec which say this unit is 800 Mhz up. The 8920, 8921, 8025 will go down to ham freq. Regards, Dr. Joseph G. Palsa P.E. Director, Sales Marketing Clary Corporation Phone: 888-442-5279 Phone: 804-674-0364 Fax: 804-674-0714 Cell: 804-350-2665 jpa...@clary.com djpa...@yahoo.com k3...@aol.com k3...@arrl.net This e-mail (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity named above and may contain privileged, proprietary, or confidential information. The information may also contain technical data subject to export control laws. In a message dated 2/1/2010 8:42:56 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, li...@cq.nu writes: Hi The big question in my mind about these is how well they do below 30 MHz. Until I know I can trust them it down there, I'm not selling very much stuff. I have yet to find a data sheet from before 2000 when they shipped with the sub-800 MHz stuff enabled. I get the impression that the E8285's never quite did as well below 30 MHz as the 8920's do. Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Don Latham wrote: Hi Bob. Display shows use, definitely, but I can see info over the whole tube. I have a couple of things to do before I can start the learning curve, but am looking forward to using it. I'll have a bunch of test stuff for sale if this thing works out ;-) Don Bob Camp Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Don, Funny thing I bought a HP E8285A non-SA from Amtronix for $250 + shipping as a RF source and spare parts for my $1200 HP 8935A... Do you by any chance have a HP 8620A/B/C (or HP 8350B/11869A) and HP 8709A/H10 and some 862xx RF plug-ins...(poor man's TG from .01 Mhz to 18 Ghz with the right plug-ins with 3 kHz RBW, and a 21.4 Mhz IF SA)? I have some Cisco cards I need to try floating around my desk somewhere... I will let you know what I find. Jim Cotton, N8QOH| jim.cot...@wmich.edu Western Michigan University | Phone: (269) 387-6421 Network Systems Group| Fax: (269) 387-5473 On Feb 1, 2010 at 15:34 -0700, Don Latham wrote: Date: Mon, 01 Feb 2010 15:34:57 -0700 (MST) From: Don Latham d...@montana.com Reply-To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Amtronix did tell me that the power measurements were off, according to some folks who had compared them to Birds. Of course the E's could be calibrated. I don't have much below 30 MHz at present either. I sense that there may be enough around to warrant a Yahoo or Google group??? Don - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@cq.nu To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Hi The big question in my mind about these is how well they do below 30 MHz. Until I know I can trust them it down there, I'm not selling very much stuff. I have yet to find a data sheet from before 2000 when they shipped with the sub-800 MHz stuff enabled. I get the impression that the E8285's never quite did as well below 30 MHz as the 8920's do. Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Don Latham wrote: Hi Bob. Display shows use, definitely, but I can see info over the whole tube. I have a couple of things to do before I can start the learning curve, but am looking forward to using it. I'll have a bunch of test stuff for sale if this thing works out ;-) Don Bob Camp Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Oh, forgot. My firmware appears to be something like A.02.4 or something like that, and the manuals are A.05.0 or so. another possible problem. Don - Original Message - From: Bob Camp li...@cq.nu To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Hi The big question in my mind about these is how well they do below 30 MHz. Until I know I can trust them it down there, I'm not selling very much stuff. I have yet to find a data sheet from before 2000 when they shipped with the sub-800 MHz stuff enabled. I get the impression that the E8285's never quite did as well below 30 MHz as the 8920's do. Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 7:29 PM, Don Latham wrote: Hi Bob. Display shows use, definitely, but I can see info over the whole tube. I have a couple of things to do before I can start the learning curve, but am looking forward to using it. I'll have a bunch of test stuff for sale if this thing works out ;-) Don Bob Camp Hi I *suspect* that any size that was common in 2003 will be ok. I have no basis for that claim. That likely will limit you to 2 gig and down. Each time I called Amtronix, Rick answered on the first ring. It's definitely someplace I would recommend dealing with. How's the display on your unit? That sees to be the weakness of a lot of test gear these days. Can't wait to measure -100 dbc/Hz phase noise with mine :) Bob On Feb 1, 2010, at 5:34 PM, Don Latham wrote: Just bought one last week. As advertised, came with a cal and checkout sheet. BTW, cost another $150 to have manuals printed out. But, I'm old fashioned and have a hard time using manuals onscreen... I also got the feeling (phone order) that I can call Amtronix and at least reach a Real Person who will talk to me. I think the E8285A will replace at least three present instruments with better, once I master Instrument Basic :-). Does anyone know which low-cost PCMCIA memory card will work? They're on Epay for as little as $10 Don Bob Camp Hi I do believe the last (or maybe next to last) of the Amtronix E8285A's is now on it's way to a basement in Pennsylvania. If anybody else here is looking for one, I'd sure call Rick pretty quick. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Ackermann N8UR Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 4:14 PM To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
My lab/workshop is my dining room (it's great being single) and I just went out and bought a very sturdy workbench that was on our auction site from a person just across town. The top was pretty poor and grubby so I just skimmed it with a sheet of plywood and it came up nice. I had to assemble the trestles and the top in the room as it was in pieces as there was no way I could get it through the door, and two of us could hardly lift the heavy top. I recon it could easily support a small car or a couple of truck engines so all the heavy gear I have on it now is well within it's limits. I certainly wanted something strong and deep enough to hold the sort of gear we use plus have room at the front and back of the instruments and found most of the modern workbences were too weak and far too narrow for me. My advice is to make sure you have ample depth in any work bench so you can have power distribution and cables at the back plus space at the front to hold devices under test. Also make sure it is strong enough so you can pile it full of gear and be able to stand on it so you can lean over the back to plug things in and out. I discovered this at my last place of work where we had some benches that started to sag badly so one of my collages designed the bench from hell. It was the sort of over engineered construction that come an earthquake or bomb you rush over to it and hid underneath as that one could probably hold up a truck :-) The bad thing is that they want to replace the carpet in my house so heaven knows how I'm going to shift this thing :-) Steve -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables
You can make a lighter, stronger, more rigid tabletop using torsion box construction. Use 1/2 plywood for the top and bottom. Use 1x1 strips of a hardwood such as poplar to crate a lattice spaced at 6 inch intervals in between, glued along the lengths of the lattice. I use brads during construction to ensure the lattice stays in place while the glue cures, but the structural strength comes from proper glue bonds along the lattice. Ralph On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi If you are looking for massive tables on the cheap, you can indeed build them. Have the local Home Depot rip some plywood to an appropriate width and glue four sheets one on top of the other. 2x4's or 4x4's make fine legs and support structure under the table top. I have 16 feet of it sitting in the basement. No test gear on it at all. Other hobbies seem to have taken over the entire space... The only real drawback is that it's a build in place item. You aren't going to take it with you when you move. There are various versions of that table scattered all over the US. Bob On Jan 23, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Mike Feher wrote: I also had similar problems with my 8 ft tables for my test equipment. I found at Home Depot replacement fold down legs. I bought some, and installed them right in the middle of the tables. No more sagging problems. I had to shorten the legs somewhat as they were a few inches too long. But, have supported hundreds of ponds for many years now with no sigh of warping/sagging. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go back. An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to 1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more... -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Late to the party, I know, but I'd like to put in another recommendation for the DG8SAQ VNA. It's cheap, accurate, and best of all -- SMALL! It occupies 4x3x2 and so doesn't take up a whole desk. If 1.3GHz is enough for you, that might be the way to go. You get about 90dB of dynamic range. You can export the data easily since the signal processing is done by the host PC. And the software contains an integrated math engine that lets you do reasonably complicated signal processing in custom traces, something I used to do by exporting data and plotting in Matlab. Nick Date: Sat, 23 Jan 2010 07:44:53 -0500 From: john.fo...@gmail.com To: time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Thanks to everyone who answered in this thread.I am keenly interested in everything everyone had to say! One of the things that seems like a no-brainer, would be to scrape together the $700 and get an Agilent E8285A CDMA test set. It seems like I can't go wrong with that! My only concern with getting these off eBay or from anywhere else for that matter, is that apparently the later versions firmware only support 800Mhz and up operation instead of the earlier versions 100kHz-1Ghz. Unfortunately, Amtronix seems to have run out, or at least are on their last 1-2 units. I wont have the cash in time to get one, as they have sold 35 in the last month alone. Sigh. Another very cool set of toys that had been mentioned, were the Tek TM500 series, which I am also interested in! I don't need any of the freq. counter plugins, but the power supply, func. generators, etc. All very cool! Thanks, John On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Magnus Danielson wrote: Bob Camp wrote: Hi About 8 years ago a whole lot of companies dumped a whole lot of test gear. Prices dropped rapidly as they did so. It's taken us all quite a while to burn through that pile of stuff. The amazing thing is that as bad as the economy is now, you don't see people doing the same sort of thing. You see oceans of people out of work, but not piles of test gear getting sold off. Well, when the .com bubble bursted, it had been preceeded by massive acceleration of an instrument-hungry industry. As the bubble bursted, both .com companies and otherwise stable companies accelerated by their customers suffered. Some folded in and some just barely survived. This time it was the economy folks that fluked it. Instrument hungry industry only suffers indirectly. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. _ Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/196390709/direct/01/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
Solid concrete floors here. I wouldn't have trusted my bench and all the kit I have on it (and under it) on floorboards alone, I'd probably have laid down a thick piece of ply to cover the area under the bench and therefore spread the weight or at least put some pieces under each 4x2 leg. Steve 2010/1/26 Mike Naruta AA8K a...@comcast.net: If the top is a two-person lift, and you are putting all your heavy equipment on it, and you are not on a concrete floor, you may want to align the bench legs with the floor joists or use plates to distribute the weight. :) My shop bench is made from wood from our family's barn. The legs are 6 by 6 inch (15 cm) and the long dimension framing is 2 by 12 inch (5 by 30 cm) and leg brace/foot rests are 2 by 2 inch (5 cm). I had to use threaded rod because the local hardware stores did not have bolts long enough. This wood was old when we purchased the farm in 1953. I built it as a tribute to our old barn. I mounted my father-in-law's big metal vise/vice on it. It is 11.5 inches (30 cm) high and 29 inches (74 cm) from front to back when closed. The screw handle is 7/8 inch (2 cm) in diameter and 16.75 inches (43 cm) long. I was barely able to lift the vise to the bench top to mount it. I also have my father's half-century old Sears vise mounted on the bench. It is 17 inches (43 cm) long (closed) and 11.5 inches (29 cm) high. The vise is in remarkably good condition, especially considering all the projects we used it for. The attached photo shows the bench with the appropriate number of projects on it. Mike - AA8K Steve Rooke wrote: My lab/workshop is my dining room (it's great being single) and I just went out and bought a very sturdy workbench that was on our auction ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. -- Steve Rooke - ZL3TUV G8KVD A man with one clock knows what time it is; A man with two clocks is never quite sure. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables
I use a 180x90 lab-table. It has a steel frame reaching out to the edges and a sufficiently thick top covered with NordStat antistatic mat. I experience no noticeable sagging, but then I arranged my instruments such that I have two towers at the two back corners and a bookshelf inbetween them onto which I have instruments in the middle. The bookshelf seems to handle it fairly well. I am annoyed that I could not get the shelf belonging to the table, as that would bring load off from the instruments. The main problem with this arrangement is that I have no wiring isle behind the bench and in general too little bench area. Too much in one place basically. I have a full-sized Schroff rack alongside the bench. Still, I can get some usefull stuff done. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Even worse are the tables with plastic tops...instasag! I've scavenged a few local leg sets from dumped tables on the curb for future projects. My lab has particle board tops covered with anti-stat matts, but they are sitting on 2 drawer filing cabinets and there is no sag. I have 4 racks currently in the house and garage; in one case, the rack out weights the contents by quite a bit. It will still be working after the roaches take over the world... Dave - Original Message - From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 5:37:55 PM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go back. An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to 1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more... -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
HA! The BT remover is one of my faves when nothing else works, and I don't want to use the realy nasty stuff like paint remover. I was given a can about 15 years ago and I'm just now running out. Dave - Original Message - From: Rex r...@sonic.net To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 12:04:46 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment paul swed wrote: It also helps to simply clean the stuff. A bit of soap and water and scrubbing gets years of grunge off. I have found that Bug and Tar Remover, sold to clean cars, works well on front panels. It seems to be strong enough to soften label gunk, but not strong enough to mar front-panel paint. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables
Hi If you are looking for massive tables on the cheap, you can indeed build them. Have the local Home Depot rip some plywood to an appropriate width and glue four sheets one on top of the other. 2x4's or 4x4's make fine legs and support structure under the table top. I have 16 feet of it sitting in the basement. No test gear on it at all. Other hobbies seem to have taken over the entire space... The only real drawback is that it's a build in place item. You aren't going to take it with you when you move. There are various versions of that table scattered all over the US. Bob On Jan 23, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Mike Feher wrote: I also had similar problems with my 8 ft tables for my test equipment. I found at Home Depot replacement fold down legs. I bought some, and installed them right in the middle of the tables. No more sagging problems. I had to shorten the legs somewhat as they were a few inches too long. But, have supported hundreds of ponds for many years now with no sigh of warping/sagging. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go back. An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to 1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more... -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables
If you are looking for massive tables on the cheap, you can indeed build them. The only real drawback is that it's a build in place item. You aren't going to take it with you when you move. There are various versions of that table scattered all over the US. My work bench is two 2 thick, eight foot long planks, bolted to two two-drawer filing cabinets, then covered with anti-static-mat. The anti-static-mat is screwed into the wood. So when it comes time to move this you unscrew and unbolt and you are on your way. As added bonuses you have four filing cabinet drawers to keep manuals and schematics in. You can see it here: http://www.designer-iii.com/Solder/ Two drawer cabinets that you can buy today are a bit shorter so they need some cement blocks hidden under them, or double up on the planks. I've not seen anyone address the anti-static issues in setting up a workbench... The Preface to Murphy's Law: We, the willing, Lead by the unknowing. Are doing the impossible for the ungrateful... We have done so much for so long... With so little... We are now qualified to do anything... With nothing... Forever! -- http://www.wearablesmartsensors.com/ http://www.softwaresafety.net/ http://www.designer-iii.com/ http://www.unusualresearch.com/ ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables
Even cheaper and less work than plywood - solid wood doors from Home Depot, laid across a rectangle using 2x4 as horizontals with 4x4 as legs. It you use lag bolts (and you should, as nails work loose over time), you can take the things apart when you move. My buddy has a few that all his milling machine parts sit on, and they haven't sagged. Ask if they have any scratch and dent doors for really cheap. Tom Frank, KA2CDK On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi If you are looking for massive tables on the cheap, you can indeed build them. Have the local Home Depot rip some plywood to an appropriate width and glue four sheets one on top of the other. 2x4's or 4x4's make fine legs and support structure under the table top. I have 16 feet of it sitting in the basement. No test gear on it at all. Other hobbies seem to have taken over the entire space... The only real drawback is that it's a build in place item. You aren't going to take it with you when you move. There are various versions of that table scattered all over the US. Bob On Jan 23, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Mike Feher wrote: I also had similar problems with my 8 ft tables for my test equipment. I found at Home Depot replacement fold down legs. I bought some, and installed them right in the middle of the tables. No more sagging problems. I had to shorten the legs somewhat as they were a few inches too long. But, have supported hundreds of ponds for many years now with no sigh of warping/sagging. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts- boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go back. An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to 1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more... -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
Oh, and I also put up 4x8 sheets of white perfboard all around my workspace instead of drywall, and have various metal hooks to hang cables from. That's been *really* handy. John John Ackermann N8UR said the following on 01/24/2010 01:19 PM: An idea I really like, but haven't had room to implement at my current house, is one that a friend used. Rather than standard 19 inch racks, he used the heavy duty 24 inch deep, 48 inch wide, 60 inch tall shelf units available at home improvement stores -- the ones with the heavy metal frame and particle board shelves that are well supported around all four sides. He had three of these units holding his test gear, with a workbench in front. The shelves were arranged so that the one lined up directly with the workbench with the higher shelves spaced for either a single heavy piece or a stack of lighter stuff. The beauty part is that he had enough room to get around and behind the shelves to work on the rear cabling. Using shelves rather than bolting the gear into racks makes it much easier to rearrange the pieces when the mood strikes. As for myself, I have a couple of racks, a 30x60 metal office table as a workbench, and several wooden equipment carts with casters that a woodworker friend built for me. A picture of one of the carts (with a second partially visible behind) is attached. They are made of heavy-duty plywood with metal frames for the shelves and metal cross braces for stabilization. The top shelf is tilted to allow a better viewing angle. These have worked really well in my fairly small space. John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables
Hi One thing to be very careful of using doors - the core may not be what you expect it to be. Solid wood may be just that, solid wood pieces laminated together. Think of it as a pice of butcher block countertop. It can also be shredded wood glued together. Think of it as a thick piece of particle board. The first sort of construction is quite strong. The second not so much so Bob On Jan 24, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Thomas A. Frank wrote: Even cheaper and less work than plywood - solid wood doors from Home Depot, laid across a rectangle using 2x4 as horizontals with 4x4 as legs. It you use lag bolts (and you should, as nails work loose over time), you can take the things apart when you move. My buddy has a few that all his milling machine parts sit on, and they haven't sagged. Ask if they have any scratch and dent doors for really cheap. Tom Frank, KA2CDK On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi If you are looking for massive tables on the cheap, you can indeed build them. Have the local Home Depot rip some plywood to an appropriate width and glue four sheets one on top of the other. 2x4's or 4x4's make fine legs and support structure under the table top. I have 16 feet of it sitting in the basement. No test gear on it at all. Other hobbies seem to have taken over the entire space... The only real drawback is that it's a build in place item. You aren't going to take it with you when you move. There are various versions of that table scattered all over the US. Bob On Jan 23, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Mike Feher wrote: I also had similar problems with my 8 ft tables for my test equipment. I found at Home Depot replacement fold down legs. I bought some, and installed them right in the middle of the tables. No more sagging problems. I had to shorten the legs somewhat as they were a few inches too long. But, have supported hundreds of ponds for many years now with no sigh of warping/sagging. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go back. An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to 1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more... -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
Here's a couple of items from the Make Magazine site: Re-purposing IKEA furniture to hold rack mount gear: http://wiki.eth-0.nl/index.php/LackRack A workshop to dream about: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/01/dream_workshop.html How many hours did that person work to make everything look good for the cameras, and what does it look like in mid project? In my own lab I didn't use Ikea furniture, but I did build a two bay wooden rack. 90% of the gear is on slides or sliding shelves (using drawer hardware), so the wood is not a drawback. The sides and intermediate upright are 2x4 frames with OSB panels glued into dados for strength. Cheers, Keith -Original Message- From: John Ackermann N8UR [mailto:j...@febo.com] Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 10:19 AM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches... An idea I really like, but haven't had room to implement at my current house, is one that a friend used. Rather than standard 19 inch racks, he used the heavy duty 24 inch deep, 48 inch wide, 60 inch tall shelf units available at home improvement stores -- the ones with the heavy metal frame and particle board shelves that are well supported around all four sides. He had three of these units holding his test gear, with a workbench in front. The shelves were arranged so that the one lined up directly with the workbench with the higher shelves spaced for either a single heavy piece or a stack of lighter stuff. The beauty part is that he had enough room to get around and behind the shelves to work on the rear cabling. Using shelves rather than bolting the gear into racks makes it much easier to rearrange the pieces when the mood strikes. As for myself, I have a couple of racks, a 30x60 metal office table as a workbench, and several wooden equipment carts with casters that a woodworker friend built for me. A picture of one of the carts (with a second partially visible behind) is attached. They are made of heavy-duty plywood with metal frames for the shelves and metal cross braces for stabilization. The top shelf is tilted to allow a better viewing angle. These have worked really well in my fairly small space. John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables
Something I've not seen mentioned is that particle board, in addition to bending, can creep over time, so a shelf of equipment may be straight on day one, but sag significantly months or years later. Not all particle board is the same, some creeps more than others. -John === Hi One thing to be very careful of using doors - the core may not be what you expect it to be. Solid wood may be just that, solid wood pieces laminated together. Think of it as a pice of butcher block countertop. It can also be shredded wood glued together. Think of it as a thick piece of particle board. The first sort of construction is quite strong. The second not so much so Bob On Jan 24, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Thomas A. Frank wrote: Even cheaper and less work than plywood - solid wood doors from Home Depot, laid across a rectangle using 2x4 as horizontals with 4x4 as legs. It you use lag bolts (and you should, as nails work loose over time), you can take the things apart when you move. My buddy has a few that all his milling machine parts sit on, and they haven't sagged. Ask if they have any scratch and dent doors for really cheap. Tom Frank, KA2CDK On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi If you are looking for massive tables on the cheap, you can indeed build them. Have the local Home Depot rip some plywood to an appropriate width and glue four sheets one on top of the other. 2x4's or 4x4's make fine legs and support structure under the table top. I have 16 feet of it sitting in the basement. No test gear on it at all. Other hobbies seem to have taken over the entire space... The only real drawback is that it's a build in place item. You aren't going to take it with you when you move. There are various versions of that table scattered all over the US. Bob On Jan 23, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Mike Feher wrote: I also had similar problems with my 8 ft tables for my test equipment. I found at Home Depot replacement fold down legs. I bought some, and installed them right in the middle of the tables. No more sagging problems. I had to shorten the legs somewhat as they were a few inches too long. But, have supported hundreds of ponds for many years now with no sigh of warping/sagging. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go back. An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to 1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more... -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
On 1/24/10 10:43 AM, Keith Payea kpa...@bryantlabs.net wrote: Here's a couple of items from the Make Magazine site: Re-purposing IKEA furniture to hold rack mount gear: http://wiki.eth-0.nl/index.php/LackRack A workshop to dream about: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/01/dream_workshop.html How many hours did that person work to make everything look good for the cameras, and what does it look like in mid project? Where I used to work (a mechanical special effects shop), we used to think about a scheme where you'd have a bench base that supported a removable bench top. The bench top had raised edges on sides and back (so stuff doesn't roll off), and a removable front edge. Then, you'd have a big motorized storage rack for the benchtops. Each project then gets it's own bench top. Work on project 1 for a few hours,then, stow it, and pull out benchtop 2 for the next project. It lets you do things like tape, fasten, or clamp parts to the bench (say, while waiting for the glue to dry or resin to cure). After all, for most projects, the vertical extent on the bench is not very much (maybe a foot or two) but the horizontal extent is great, and preferably not disturbed. What we want in that ideal shop is always lots of benches and tables so you can spread out. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
james.p@jpl.nasa.gov said: Where I used to work (a mechanical special effects shop), we used to think about a scheme where you'd have a bench base that supported a removable bench top. The bench top had raised edges on sides and back (so stuff doesn't roll off), and a removable front edge. Then, you'd have a big motorized storage rack for the benchtops. Each project then gets it's own bench top. Work on project 1 for a few hours,then, stow it, and pull out benchtop 2 for the next project. What do you do when the storage rack is full of cluttered bench tops? -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
Hi You get one of those high rise rotating storage gizmos that will store 200 bench tops in an area 40' wide x 30' deep x 600' tall. Bob On Jan 24, 2010, at 2:34 PM, Hal Murray wrote: james.p@jpl.nasa.gov said: Where I used to work (a mechanical special effects shop), we used to think about a scheme where you'd have a bench base that supported a removable bench top. The bench top had raised edges on sides and back (so stuff doesn't roll off), and a removable front edge. Then, you'd have a big motorized storage rack for the benchtops. Each project then gets it's own bench top. Work on project 1 for a few hours,then, stow it, and pull out benchtop 2 for the next project. What do you do when the storage rack is full of cluttered bench tops? -- These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
Hal Murray wrote: james.p@jpl.nasa.gov said: Where I used to work (a mechanical special effects shop), we used to think about a scheme where you'd have a bench base that supported a removable bench top. The bench top had raised edges on sides and back (so stuff doesn't roll off), and a removable front edge. Then, you'd have a big motorized storage rack for the benchtops. Each project then gets it's own bench top. Work on project 1 for a few hours,then, stow it, and pull out benchtop 2 for the next project. What do you do when the storage rack is full of cluttered bench tops? Finally finish a project sounds like a good thing. Or maybe just merge two benchtops not in need of the full space. Work on the low-haning fruit and get satisfaction from completeing something. :) Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
Hi Complete something !! Yikes what a terrible idea. That would involve actually doing all the un-fun things that I've been putting off once the fun stuff was all done. Bob On Jan 24, 2010, at 4:51 PM, Magnus Danielson wrote: Hal Murray wrote: james.p@jpl.nasa.gov said: Where I used to work (a mechanical special effects shop), we used to think about a scheme where you'd have a bench base that supported a removable bench top. The bench top had raised edges on sides and back (so stuff doesn't roll off), and a removable front edge. Then, you'd have a big motorized storage rack for the benchtops. Each project then gets it's own bench top. Work on project 1 for a few hours,then, stow it, and pull out benchtop 2 for the next project. What do you do when the storage rack is full of cluttered bench tops? Finally finish a project sounds like a good thing. Or maybe just merge two benchtops not in need of the full space. Work on the low-haning fruit and get satisfaction from completeing something. :) Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
Bob Camp wrote: Hi Complete something !! Yikes what a terrible idea. That would involve actually doing all the un-fun things that I've been putting off once the fun stuff was all done. Well, it may be a provoking idea to some, but there is a joy in actually having done those other things as well and have a working something. At least, that is what I've heard from friends who say they know someone that had an uncle that did it... maybe I'll try it myself some day. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
On 1/24/10 2:06 PM, Bob Camp li...@cq.nu wrote: Hi Complete something !! Yikes what a terrible idea. That would involve actually doing all the un-fun things that I've been putting off once the fun stuff was all done. Bob Well, even though we had a fair amount of time to tinker with ideas that might pan out, most of the work was actually for a client and had a defined delivery date (usually in a couple weeks from starting the job). And, of course, it's just like running out of room in the garage. Do you just buy a bigger garage? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment / work benches...
Hi rent a bigger storage locker guilty Bob On Jan 24, 2010, at 6:48 PM, Lux, Jim (337C) wrote: On 1/24/10 2:06 PM, Bob Camp li...@cq.nu wrote: Hi Complete something !! Yikes what a terrible idea. That would involve actually doing all the un-fun things that I've been putting off once the fun stuff was all done. Bob Well, even though we had a fair amount of time to tinker with ideas that might pan out, most of the work was actually for a client and had a defined delivery date (usually in a couple weeks from starting the job). And, of course, it's just like running out of room in the garage. Do you just buy a bigger garage? ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables
Hi, I'm late to this thread. On using doors as work benches, consider using lightweight panel doors instead of solid. They are two skins joined by a fibreboard honeycomb. Very light and stiff, just like the honeycomb construction used in aircraft. The one drawback is they can be punctured if you put a heavy bit of kit down corner first. This can be prevented by a top skin of 1.8 (3mm) ply. Fire rated ones have thicker skins but are heavy. I got some quality ones with damage to one side for a couple of pounds each. Lasted 18 years untill I sold the place. Robert G8RPI. --- On Sun, 24/1/10, J. Forster j...@quik.com wrote: From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Date: Sunday, 24 January, 2010, 18:41 Something I've not seen mentioned is that particle board, in addition to bending, can creep over time, so a shelf of equipment may be straight on day one, but sag significantly months or years later. Not all particle board is the same, some creeps more than others. -John === Hi One thing to be very careful of using doors - the core may not be what you expect it to be. Solid wood may be just that, solid wood pieces laminated together. Think of it as a pice of butcher block countertop. It can also be shredded wood glued together. Think of it as a thick piece of particle board. The first sort of construction is quite strong. The second not so much so Bob On Jan 24, 2010, at 1:09 PM, Thomas A. Frank wrote: Even cheaper and less work than plywood - solid wood doors from Home Depot, laid across a rectangle using 2x4 as horizontals with 4x4 as legs. It you use lag bolts (and you should, as nails work loose over time), you can take the things apart when you move. My buddy has a few that all his milling machine parts sit on, and they haven't sagged. Ask if they have any scratch and dent doors for really cheap. Tom Frank, KA2CDK On Jan 24, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Bob Camp wrote: Hi If you are looking for massive tables on the cheap, you can indeed build them. Have the local Home Depot rip some plywood to an appropriate width and glue four sheets one on top of the other. 2x4's or 4x4's make fine legs and support structure under the table top. I have 16 feet of it sitting in the basement. No test gear on it at all. Other hobbies seem to have taken over the entire space... The only real drawback is that it's a build in place item. You aren't going to take it with you when you move. There are various versions of that table scattered all over the US. Bob On Jan 23, 2010, at 7:48 PM, Mike Feher wrote: I also had similar problems with my 8 ft tables for my test equipment. I found at Home Depot replacement fold down legs. I bought some, and installed them right in the middle of the tables. No more sagging problems. I had to shorten the legs somewhat as they were a few inches too long. But, have supported hundreds of ponds for many years now with no sigh of warping/sagging. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Bob Camp wrote: Hi About 8 years ago a whole lot of companies dumped a whole lot of test gear. Prices dropped rapidly as they did so. It's taken us all quite a while to burn through that pile of stuff. The amazing thing is that as bad as the economy is now, you don't see people doing the same sort of thing. You see oceans of people out of work, but not piles of test gear getting sold off. Well, when the .com bubble bursted, it had been preceeded by massive acceleration of an instrument-hungry industry. As the bubble bursted, both .com companies and otherwise stable companies accelerated by their customers suffered. Some folded in and some just barely survived. This time it was the economy folks that fluked it. Instrument hungry industry only suffers indirectly. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Thanks to everyone who answered in this thread.I am keenly interested in everything everyone had to say! One of the things that seems like a no-brainer, would be to scrape together the $700 and get an Agilent E8285A CDMA test set. It seems like I can't go wrong with that! My only concern with getting these off eBay or from anywhere else for that matter, is that apparently the later versions firmware only support 800Mhz and up operation instead of the earlier versions 100kHz-1Ghz. Unfortunately, Amtronix seems to have run out, or at least are on their last 1-2 units. I wont have the cash in time to get one, as they have sold 35 in the last month alone. Sigh. Another very cool set of toys that had been mentioned, were the Tek TM500 series, which I am also interested in! I don't need any of the freq. counter plugins, but the power supply, func. generators, etc. All very cool! Thanks, John On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: Bob Camp wrote: Hi About 8 years ago a whole lot of companies dumped a whole lot of test gear. Prices dropped rapidly as they did so. It's taken us all quite a while to burn through that pile of stuff. The amazing thing is that as bad as the economy is now, you don't see people doing the same sort of thing. You see oceans of people out of work, but not piles of test gear getting sold off. Well, when the .com bubble bursted, it had been preceeded by massive acceleration of an instrument-hungry industry. As the bubble bursted, both .com companies and otherwise stable companies accelerated by their customers suffered. Some folded in and some just barely survived. This time it was the economy folks that fluked it. Instrument hungry industry only suffers indirectly. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
I really think the Tek TM500 is a great way to set up a compact, professional grade lab. If you get a TM515 mainframe, you can even travel with it. I think I'd consider carefully about getting a separate scope (465A,...) rather than a SC50x though. -John Thanks to everyone who answered in this thread.I am keenly interested in everything everyone had to say! One of the things that seems like a no-brainer, would be to scrape together the $700 and get an Agilent E8285A CDMA test set. It seems like I can't go wrong with that! My only concern with getting these off eBay or from anywhere else for that matter, is that apparently the later versions firmware only support 800Mhz and up operation instead of the earlier versions 100kHz-1Ghz. Unfortunately, Amtronix seems to have run out, or at least are on their last 1-2 units. I wont have the cash in time to get one, as they have sold 35 in the last month alone. Sigh. Another very cool set of toys that had been mentioned, were the Tek TM500 series, which I am also interested in! I don't need any of the freq. counter plugins, but the power supply, func. generators, etc. All very cool! Thanks, John On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: Bob Camp wrote: Hi About 8 years ago a whole lot of companies dumped a whole lot of test gear. Prices dropped rapidly as they did so. It's taken us all quite a while to burn through that pile of stuff. The amazing thing is that as bad as the economy is now, you don't see people doing the same sort of thing. You see oceans of people out of work, but not piles of test gear getting sold off. Well, when the .com bubble bursted, it had been preceeded by massive acceleration of an instrument-hungry industry. As the bubble bursted, both .com companies and otherwise stable companies accelerated by their customers suffered. Some folded in and some just barely survived. This time it was the economy folks that fluked it. Instrument hungry industry only suffers indirectly. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
John, as for the function generator, I stick with my old Wavetek 186. I have a HP 33120A, but I'm using it only for special applications like precise swept frequency tests. Each time it takes me an hour of reading the manual to get through the cryptic user interface... Now the ol' Wavetek has a few knobs that you just dial in and... voilà! Obviously, there are other good function generators on the market that cost less. Just look for the right features like an output attenuator with 20 dB steps down to -60 (or at least Hi and Lo outputs) etc. Any RF / microwave test equipment depends on the frequency range you want to cover and on your budget. I've had a Tek 7L13 (1.8 GHz) spectrum analyzer that served me well until I replaced it with a 7L14 (digital storage) and, later on a HP 70100A (2.9 GHz), and a while ago with a RS FSEA30 (3.5 GHz). There is a huge difference between the FSEA30 and the 7L13, but also in the price tag... Adrian John Foege schrieb: Thanks to everyone who answered in this thread.I am keenly interested in everything everyone had to say! One of the things that seems like a no-brainer, would be to scrape together the $700 and get an Agilent E8285A CDMA test set. It seems like I can't go wrong with that! My only concern with getting these off eBay or from anywhere else for that matter, is that apparently the later versions firmware only support 800Mhz and up operation instead of the earlier versions 100kHz-1Ghz. Unfortunately, Amtronix seems to have run out, or at least are on their last 1-2 units. I wont have the cash in time to get one, as they have sold 35 in the last month alone. Sigh. Another very cool set of toys that had been mentioned, were the Tek TM500 series, which I am also interested in! I don't need any of the freq. counter plugins, but the power supply, func. generators, etc. All very cool! Thanks, John On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 5:18 AM, Magnus Danielson mag...@rubidium.dyndns.org wrote: Bob Camp wrote: Hi About 8 years ago a whole lot of companies dumped a whole lot of test gear. Prices dropped rapidly as they did so. It's taken us all quite a while to burn through that pile of stuff. The amazing thing is that as bad as the economy is now, you don't see people doing the same sort of thing. You see oceans of people out of work, but not piles of test gear getting sold off. Well, when the .com bubble bursted, it had been preceeded by massive acceleration of an instrument-hungry industry. As the bubble bursted, both .com companies and otherwise stable companies accelerated by their customers suffered. Some folded in and some just barely survived. This time it was the economy folks that fluked it. Instrument hungry industry only suffers indirectly. Cheers, Magnus ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. Final solution was industrial strength work benches with a butcher block maple top, 1-3/4 thick. I use a grounded anti static rubber mat on top. They have never sagged with lotsa test equipment on them. My test bench is 36 deep and 72 wide. Always plan for rear access for cleaning the air filters, plugging in the external references, and other cabling. How much work space do you really need ? Depends on how big the stuff you work on is You will probably need 18 to 24 of workspace between you and the test equipment. Some test equipment like a VNA may be 22 deep, and almost 100 lbs. Maybe the long equipment is best placed on a wheeled wire rack. The open wire racks come in many sizes, both in width, depth, 18, 24 etc., and height. They breath well being open and access to the front and rear connectors is easy. Mine are on wheels so I can move my T'Bolt references and counter array to the test location. Caveat: Some of the industrial grade work benches with a anti static plastic laminate over particle board ~ 1.25 thick can sag with weight. Either limit the weight or add another leg in the middle. Caveat #2: Avoid the smaller wheels on the movable racks. The cast marks on the middle of the tread will mar hardwood floors. Bigger eurathane wheels roll nicely. A steel framed, steel top with a anti static pad is also quite workable. Always trim the leg height to your requirements. Ergonomics is important when watching that 48 hour precision survey with Lady Heather. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Stan, W1LECape CodFN41sr z ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go back. An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to 1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more... -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
For my workbenches, I went to a local shop that fabricates Kitchen Counter Tops. They will custom make most anything you want. The two I bought were 72 wide and 34 deep and cost around $85 each. The legs were bought from McMaster-Carr for around $30 a pair. Works for me. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: John Miles jmi...@pop.net Sent: Jan 23, 2010 7:37 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go back. An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to 1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more... -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Tables
I also had similar problems with my 8 ft tables for my test equipment. I found at Home Depot replacement fold down legs. I bought some, and installed them right in the middle of the tables. No more sagging problems. I had to shorten the legs somewhat as they were a few inches too long. But, have supported hundreds of ponds for many years now with no sigh of warping/sagging. 73 - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Miles Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 7:38 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Another important aspect of the electronic test bench is the furniture. I started with the cheapie particle board fold up legged tables and very soon learned they could not hold much weight without significant sagging. If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. With cheap folding tables, you don't have to feel bad about drilling into your workbench or otherwise marring and gouging it. Every few years, or when you move, just throw the old folding table away and spend $39.95 on another one. Voila, a brand new workbench. Many industrial equipment catalogs will give you an idea of the accessories possible. Shelves, drawers, electrical outlet strips.etc. An effective infrastructure will allow the test bench to gradually grow, as the budget allows. Also, HP/Agilent equipment racks are sometimes available on eBay. These are nothing like the relay racks or server racks that you commonly see in data centers. They are *stout*. They're very expensive when new, but almost free for the shipping when bought used. I used generic shelving units to hold test equipment for a long time, but once you use real racks, you won't go back. An Agilent E3662A/B rack can hold up to 81 EIA units of gear weighing up to 1800 pounds. I have three in my living room and wish I had more... -- john, KE5FX ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
paul swed wrote: It also helps to simply clean the stuff. A bit of soap and water and scrubbing gets years of grunge off. I have found that Bug and Tar Remover, sold to clean cars, works well on front panels. It seems to be strong enough to soften label gunk, but not strong enough to mar front-panel paint. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
If you have the space, you could do what I do, and bolt multiple folding tables together with 'L'- and 'T'-shaped flat metal brackets. The idea, besides adding surface area, is to dampen the tables' tendency to wobble. This adds a surprising amount of stability and load-bearing capacity. It completely eliminates the need to add a center leg, which is otherwise pretty much mandatory when using folding tables. I did this too; used 2x4 for legs and frames, 2 glued layers of particle board for top, 4'x8'. Use lots of construction adhesive. For top shelving, I got the put-together 18 in. deep storage shelving. Somehow I always wind up working on the last 2-5 inches of the table anyway :-) I bought rolling plastic drawer assemblies at Staples that just fit under the top battens for storage. Remember Latham's law of horizontal surfaces (ahem)--any horizontal surface immediately becomes covered up with crud! Store parts in oversized tackle-type partitioned boxes, they stack, and you can bring the needed one to the top. Tons of little drawers suck, IMHO. $0.02 Don ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Hi About 8 years ago a whole lot of companies dumped a whole lot of test gear. Prices dropped rapidly as they did so. It's taken us all quite a while to burn through that pile of stuff. The amazing thing is that as bad as the economy is now, you don't see people doing the same sort of thing. You see oceans of people out of work, but not piles of test gear getting sold off. Bob On Jan 22, 2010, at 2:12 AM, Don Latham wrote: - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com Its unfortunate but there used to be flea markets with truckloads of test equipment. Very inexpensive power supplies and everything else. But much of that has gone to ebay. You still find a bargain now and again. But nothing like 5 years ago. The dollar buys less than it did a mere 5 years ago; the flea market is a real market and there is a lot of stuff IMHO sitting on shelves unsold. ebay also has a lot of stuff in stores with absurd prices on it; it won't sell either. Eventually the prices will drop, I hope... Don ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
All good comments. Totally agree it depends on your interests on what will get used the most. I have a very wide range of gear that I have picked up since becoming a test equipment junky. Though the gear I have is not really junk, pretty far from it. Multiple spectrum analyzers, network analyzers, generators and scopes, on an on. One good thing is that often the gear just needs some tlc to get back into to shape. It also helps to simply clean the stuff. A bit of soap and water and scrubbing gets years of grunge off. I have learned so much from repairing this equipment for my hobby. Each piece is a lesson on how to do things right. If it an HP, Tektronix, or Rhodes and Shwartz. Fluke has really gone down hill for my 2 cents. Pretty junky. Sorry I purchased a fluke 87 new. Live and learn. Anyhow stick to good names and you can't go to wrong. As for ebay silly prices for really high risk equipment. I quit using ebay about 4 years ago. I actually had purchased numbers of things from the auctions. But ebay seemed to want to know far to much info on me. As they say time to shut her down. On Fri, Jan 22, 2010 at 7:23 AM, Bob Camp li...@cq.nu wrote: Hi About 8 years ago a whole lot of companies dumped a whole lot of test gear. Prices dropped rapidly as they did so. It's taken us all quite a while to burn through that pile of stuff. The amazing thing is that as bad as the economy is now, you don't see people doing the same sort of thing. You see oceans of people out of work, but not piles of test gear getting sold off. Bob On Jan 22, 2010, at 2:12 AM, Don Latham wrote: - Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com Its unfortunate but there used to be flea markets with truckloads of test equipment. Very inexpensive power supplies and everything else. But much of that has gone to ebay. You still find a bargain now and again. But nothing like 5 years ago. The dollar buys less than it did a mere 5 years ago; the flea market is a real market and there is a lot of stuff IMHO sitting on shelves unsold. ebay also has a lot of stuff in stores with absurd prices on it; it won't sell either. Eventually the prices will drop, I hope... Don ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
One thing I would get (and have gotten) is a GPSDO. They are relatively inexpensive ($100) and will provide a reference for your Frequency Counter. This will enable accurate frequency measurement that the old 5345 (of which I have two) cannot do on it's own. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Sent: Jan 21, 2010 1:35 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Well, if you want to build, how about: http://www.scottyspectrumanalyzer.com/ a little 3GHz spectrum analyzer I'm still building mine :-) Get a Triimble Thunderbolt for a 10Mhz GPS locked frequency standard. Feed that into the external frequency standard input of your HP5345A. Scott On Jan 21, 2010, at 10:35 AM, John Foege wrote: I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Hello John and the Net: Welcome to the list. You have to define what you really want to do, before you spec out the test equipment to do it. Is your focus time and frequency accuracy and stability or more RF design wise ? Find a job that has all the access to modern test equipment you could dream of. If you have it at work and they tolerate home projects, you are a giant step ahead. A key to the stock room also helps. If you really have to have your own, I find Ebay to be a valuable (anytime) source. Ham radio fleamarkets are another source. Timonium, NEARFEST, MIT, Dayton. Ebay is like the big fleamarket in the ether, you do not know what you bought until you put it on your test bench and evaluate its' performance.. Most test equipment vendors are simply junk/salvage dealers. They buy by the pallet load and hope for a bonanza on Ebay. Always consider a second unit as a parts unit. There is nothing wrong with gear a generation or two old as long as you can live with the original specs. The older HP gear I have picked up is exceptionally reliable and still performing. Where are you located and what is your engineering job ? Stan, W1LE Cape Cod FN41sr John Foege wrote: I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
I'd get a couple of good, variable power supplies. An SA (maybe w/ tracking generator) long before a VNA. An RF and a Function generator would also be useful. I'd also stick w/ your 2465. It's much less likely to lie to you. FWIW, -John = I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Disagree. You really need to know frequency better than 1 in 10E7 unless you are working on timing stuff. I'd not bother until my lab was pretty well equipped otherwise. FWIW, -John One thing I would get (and have gotten) is a GPSDO. They are relatively inexpensive ($100) and will provide a reference for your Frequency Counter. This will enable accurate frequency measurement that the old 5345 (of which I have two) cannot do on it's own. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Sent: Jan 21, 2010 1:35 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment... oops
Disagree. You really DON'T need to know frequency better than 1 in 10E7 unless you are working on timing stuff. I'd not bother until my lab was pretty well equipped otherwise. FWIW, -John One thing I would get (and have gotten) is a GPSDO. They are relatively inexpensive ($100) and will provide a reference for your Frequency Counter. This will enable accurate frequency measurement that the old 5345 (of which I have two) cannot do on it's own. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Sent: Jan 21, 2010 1:35 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Maybe you don't need to know, but I do. For a small investment, it gives big returns. But then, that's what makes politics. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Sent: Jan 21, 2010 2:19 PM To: Richard W. Solomon w1...@earthlink.net, Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Disagree. You really need to know frequency better than 1 in 10E7 unless you are working on timing stuff. I'd not bother until my lab was pretty well equipped otherwise. FWIW, -John One thing I would get (and have gotten) is a GPSDO. They are relatively inexpensive ($100) and will provide a reference for your Frequency Counter. This will enable accurate frequency measurement that the old 5345 (of which I have two) cannot do on it's own. 73, Dick, W1KSZ -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Sent: Jan 21, 2010 1:35 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too) to reflect the fact that no single instrument is universal, with possibly one exception: my favorite hand held DMM is a Fluke 8060A, but I am sure some people will have another favorite :) Don't start spending what little money you have until you know what you need. If you just need to spend money, may I interest you in a wonderful business opportunity in Nigeria? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:35:22 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too) to reflect the fact that no single instrument is universal, with possibly one exception: my favorite hand held DMM is a Fluke 8060A, but I am sure some people will have another favorite :) Don't start spending what little money you have until you know what you need. If you just need to spend money, may I interest you in a wonderful business opportunity in Nigeria? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:35:22 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too) to reflect the fact that no single instrument is universal, with possibly one exception: my favorite hand held DMM is a Fluke 8060A, but I am sure some people will have another favorite :) Don't start spending what little money you have until you know what you need. If you just need to spend money, may I interest you in a wonderful business opportunity in Nigeria? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:35:22 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Then you need some multimeters, function generators and power supplies. The available options vary widely based on your budget. Neil On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 12:43 PM, john.fo...@gmail.com wrote: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too) to reflect the fact that no single instrument is universal, with possibly one exception: my favorite hand held DMM is a Fluke 8060A, but I am sure some people will have another favorite :) Don't start spending what little money you have until you know what you need. If you just need to spend money, may I interest you in a wonderful business opportunity in Nigeria? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:35:22 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Another advantage, they don't take 6 feet of bench space and weight 600# Didier Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:13:46 To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too) to reflect the fact that no single instrument is universal, with possibly one exception: my favorite hand held DMM is a Fluke 8060A, but I am sure some people will have another favorite :) Don't start spending what little money you have until you know what you need. If you just need to spend money, may I interest you in a wonderful business opportunity in Nigeria? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:35:22 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
What frequency ranges? If you are interested in 60MHz, then something like the TenTec TAPR VNA ($600) connects to a PC or a mac. Works as a signal generator and as a 2 port VNA. On I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Aww... come on. Almost ALL SAs are 19 wide or less. -John Another advantage, they don't take 6 feet of bench space and weight 600# Didier Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Ackermann N8UR j...@febo.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 16:13:46 To: john.fo...@gmail.com; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment If RF measurement is your bag, and you're able to spend a couple of $K (actually, $2K if what I've seen recently holds), consider a communications service monitor like the HP 8920A/8920B/8921/8924/8935/E8285 (all pretty much the same thing). You get an RF generator, RF power meter, RX frequency meter and modulation analyzer, audio generator, audio analyzer, digital o'scope, and in most units a spectrum analyzer (many have a tracking generator, too) in one box. And I've probably forgotten a few things. If you get one with spec analyzer and tracking generator, there's software that lets you do swept insertion/return loss and cable fault finding. None of its capabilities are as good as those of a dedicated box performing a single function, but they're good enough for the vast majority of uses. An 8920 was the first significant piece of test gear I bought, and if I ever have to sell out, it'll be the last one to go. The prices came down a lot when Lucent surplused hundreds (thousands?) of them from their portable and cell phone production lines. I saw an 8935 with spec an, fully functional (as far as I could tell) for about $1500 this summer. A guy who sells and services a lot of these boxes is Rick at http://www.amtronix.com -- that web site will give you lots of info about the various versions and options. (I just noticed he has some Agilent 8285As as a hobbyist special with spec an and tracking generator for $650. That looks like a deal.) John john.fo...@gmail.com said the following on 01/21/2010 03:43 PM: Just that John, I'm looking to setup a general purpose lab. I'd lean towards RF type stuff since I'm a HAM. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: J. Forster j...@quik.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 12:22:11 To: did...@cox.net; Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I made the mistake of setting up a purpose-built lab once, and soon discovered to do most things, you really need at least a basic general purpose lab. The only exception is, I suppose, if you are going to repair a specific instrument and do nothing else. Also, as others have pointed out, you really need to define what are your area(s) of interest. Specialized gear gets $$$ pretty quickly. -John John, That sounds like asking what is the best vehicle for you to buy. If you do not know what you want to do with it, I am not sure we can help you all that much. However, if you have a specific objective, I am sure you will get a lot of valuable information here. You have a (good) analog scope, you may want a power supply or two, a soldering iron and maybe a desoldering station if you do surface mount. You also want a good hand-held multimeter. Some sort of signal or function generator may be useful too. These vary widely depending on frequency range and features. There is no good single answer to any of these questions without knowing more about what you do with it. Many of us on this list have more than one of pretty much everything (I am guilty of that too) to reflect the fact that no single instrument is universal, with possibly one exception: my favorite hand held DMM is a Fluke 8060A, but I am sure some people will have another favorite :) Don't start spending what little money you have until you know what you need. If you just need to spend money, may I interest you in a wonderful business opportunity in Nigeria? Didier KO4BB Sent from my BlackBerry Wireless thingy while I do other things... -Original Message- From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:35:22 To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurementtime-nuts@febo.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Hi Nothing about a lab is one size fits all. That said, I think you probably will need to add: A way to come up with 3 DC voltages. Either a triple supply or 3 independent supplies. Something like 0-7V @ 5-10A and a couple of 0-32V at 1-3A supplies. Something to measure volts and amps. Handheld meters are very neat and they can do a lot. I happen to like bench DVM's simply because they don't walk around the bench as I tug on the leads. A bench computer. It doesn't need to be the latest and greatest. Something that will barely run XP is probably plenty good enough. It does need to have a net connection, a serial port, a parallel port, and a sound card. A (mostly) working display is also helpful. If you get exotic, it should have at least one USB port. A *good* soldering setup. I've seen more people destroy stuff with low end soldering gear than just about any other thing. A stock of parts and wire. What we are talking about here is really how to allocate a limited budget. Parts are just as important as anything else you set up in a lab. Save some money to at least put in a stock of resistors and common capacitors. Someplace to work. The kitchen table isn't going to cut it for long. Don't buy more stuff than you have room to use. Also don't empty out all the quarters from the cookie jar before a table or bench gets bought. The strength of the bench may be a significant issue as you shop for test gear. For radio specific stuff: Some kind of RF signal source. Usually a signal generator for the bands that interest you. It can be as simple as an old LM frequency meter or it can cost as much as a new car... A way to measure RF power accurately. You can do this with a scope or a spectrum analyzer, but an RF power meter is more likely to give you a good answer. An audio generator. You could do it with a sound card, but that can get pretty tedious. Audio / function generators are pretty cheap if you shop around. If you'd been at the Dayton Hamfest in 1981 I would have gladly sold you a good one for $15 (your choice from the 4 pallets full). A radio power supply. Depending on what you run, this might not be much. A supply that will adjust at least from 10 to 15 volts that puts out 20 to 30A is what I would recommend. The list could go on and on, but it does very much depend on what you want to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Foege Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:35 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
One thing to look at is the Tek TM500 stuff. When I lived in a small appartment, it was very helpful. There are a wide variety of modules available, often in the $20 to $30 range. They are also mostly pretty easy to fix and use mostly standard OTS parts. The TM500 stuff is NOT a substitute for high end instruments, but is well above hobby grade. BTW, the RF generators are not very good on frequency stability. You can get 6 lab grade instruments in a box about 9 wide x 14 high x 18 deep. FWIW, -John Hi Nothing about a lab is one size fits all. That said, I think you probably will need to add: A way to come up with 3 DC voltages. Either a triple supply or 3 independent supplies. Something like 0-7V @ 5-10A and a couple of 0-32V at 1-3A supplies. Something to measure volts and amps. Handheld meters are very neat and they can do a lot. I happen to like bench DVM's simply because they don't walk around the bench as I tug on the leads. A bench computer. It doesn't need to be the latest and greatest. Something that will barely run XP is probably plenty good enough. It does need to have a net connection, a serial port, a parallel port, and a sound card. A (mostly) working display is also helpful. If you get exotic, it should have at least one USB port. A *good* soldering setup. I've seen more people destroy stuff with low end soldering gear than just about any other thing. A stock of parts and wire. What we are talking about here is really how to allocate a limited budget. Parts are just as important as anything else you set up in a lab. Save some money to at least put in a stock of resistors and common capacitors. Someplace to work. The kitchen table isn't going to cut it for long. Don't buy more stuff than you have room to use. Also don't empty out all the quarters from the cookie jar before a table or bench gets bought. The strength of the bench may be a significant issue as you shop for test gear. For radio specific stuff: Some kind of RF signal source. Usually a signal generator for the bands that interest you. It can be as simple as an old LM frequency meter or it can cost as much as a new car... A way to measure RF power accurately. You can do this with a scope or a spectrum analyzer, but an RF power meter is more likely to give you a good answer. An audio generator. You could do it with a sound card, but that can get pretty tedious. Audio / function generators are pretty cheap if you shop around. If you'd been at the Dayton Hamfest in 1981 I would have gladly sold you a good one for $15 (your choice from the 4 pallets full). A radio power supply. Depending on what you run, this might not be much. A supply that will adjust at least from 10 to 15 volts that puts out 20 to 30A is what I would recommend. The list could go on and on, but it does very much depend on what you want to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Foege Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:35 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
I agree, the TM-500 series has a lot of good plug-ins like DMMs, power supplies, function generators, pulse generators and frequency counters, that are quite useful and as good as economy stand-alone equipment, often for much less. One relatively deceptive instrument in the TM-500 series is the SG-503 (and its big brother SG-504). On paper, it sounds very useful, with 250MHz max frequency and very stable output level with a frequency counter built-in in a single TM-500 drawer. But its frequency stability is insufficient to check receivers, the frequency control (and counter) is too coarse, and the attenuator has very limited range (high level only). It is perfect for what it was designed for, which is checking the bandwidth of oscilloscopes, but is not really useful for much else, particularly not for checking receivers. I have one in perfect condition, and I never use it. If you do RF work on a budget, don't buy an SG-503. They are still relatively expensive, and not very useful. Keep your money for a true Signal Generator, like an HP 8640 (manual tuning) or an HP 8657A (synthesized), or a Communication Test Set. This was my $0.02 for today... Didier -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:46 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment One thing to look at is the Tek TM500 stuff. When I lived in a small appartment, it was very helpful. There are a wide variety of modules available, often in the $20 to $30 range. They are also mostly pretty easy to fix and use mostly standard OTS parts. The TM500 stuff is NOT a substitute for high end instruments, but is well above hobby grade. BTW, the RF generators are not very good on frequency stability. You can get 6 lab grade instruments in a box about 9 wide x 14 high x 18 deep. FWIW, -John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
I agree. The RF generators are not really useful for radio work. -John == I agree, the TM-500 series has a lot of good plug-ins like DMMs, power supplies, function generators, pulse generators and frequency counters, that are quite useful and as good as economy stand-alone equipment, often for much less. One relatively deceptive instrument in the TM-500 series is the SG-503 (and its big brother SG-504). On paper, it sounds very useful, with 250MHz max frequency and very stable output level with a frequency counter built-in in a single TM-500 drawer. But its frequency stability is insufficient to check receivers, the frequency control (and counter) is too coarse, and the attenuator has very limited range (high level only). It is perfect for what it was designed for, which is checking the bandwidth of oscilloscopes, but is not really useful for much else, particularly not for checking receivers. I have one in perfect condition, and I never use it. If you do RF work on a budget, don't buy an SG-503. They are still relatively expensive, and not very useful. Keep your money for a true Signal Generator, like an HP 8640 (manual tuning) or an HP 8657A (synthesized), or a Communication Test Set. This was my $0.02 for today... Didier -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:46 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment One thing to look at is the Tek TM500 stuff. When I lived in a small appartment, it was very helpful. There are a wide variety of modules available, often in the $20 to $30 range. They are also mostly pretty easy to fix and use mostly standard OTS parts. The TM500 stuff is NOT a substitute for high end instruments, but is well above hobby grade. BTW, the RF generators are not very good on frequency stability. You can get 6 lab grade instruments in a box about 9 wide x 14 high x 18 deep. FWIW, -John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Lux, Jim (337C) wrote: What frequency ranges? If you are interested in 60MHz, then something like the TenTec TAPR VNA ($600) connects to a PC or a mac. Works as a signal generator and as a 2 port VNA. Or this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VNWA/ (DG8SAQ) Excellent to 500 MHz, quite usable to 1300 MHz. Does 6 or 12 term error correction, most of this VNA is software. I'm just using one to tune a 100 MHz oscillator with opened loop. :-) The only drawback is that one cannot measure compression because the absolute levels vary over f. But then it can embed / de-embed, virtual match, display the Q and equivalent circuit of a crystal from S11 measurement, L, C, time gating and and and. regards, Gerhard DK4XP ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment
Hi, John -- having both a couple of GPSDOs and an HP 5345A, I'm going to offer the (perhaps) minority opinion that you not drive the external clock input of the 5345 from the 10MHz output of a GPSDO. I was lucky enough to get a 5345 with a really good, well-aged 10811A OCXO in it, which has proven to be very, very stable. I do use my Trimble TBolt to check the 5345 every once in a while, with the 5345 averaging over the longest time it offers; then I do the same thing with my other GPSDO; then I scratch my head and see how the three of them compare. Adjusting the 5345 is a time-consuming, frustrating, and essentially pointless operation, since there is no fine-tuning of the 10811's output. Better to just log the variances and make compensating calculations for critical measurements of time or frequency. As to other gear, maybe an HP/Agilent 34401A or the equivalent Fluke or Keithley 6.x digit DMM would be useful -- older HP DMMsa with 6+ digit resolution come up for peanuts on auction sites all the time, and a 3456A for example is a very good, very versatile instrument once it's cal'd. My 2 cents. Dick Moore Message: 2 Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2010 13:35:22 -0500 From: John Foege john.fo...@gmail.com Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement time-nuts@febo.com Message-ID: 888d55281001211035tfa48d5ew5e36acf584cc5...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
John Foege wrote: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. John, I hope my first post on this Forum will be useful to you... I was in your same position two or three years ago. I have to say that ebay is really handy, but I suggest you first to try with swapfests and flea-markets. There you can speak with the seller, and _ask_ for a demonstration if there's a AC plug close by. My only suggestion is: buy what you need now, and save money for the future. Oscilloscopes If I'm not wrong, Tektronix is selling its entry-level models at around 1000$. I have a TDS 210: small, portable, fits 100% the requirements for a general purpose scope. However, I use most my old Tek 475A (analog, 200 MHz bandwidth) Spectrum Analyzer I have started with a HP 141T system, a real workhorse (and reparable). The 141 is actually the mainframe, then you need the 855x series plug-in. One (8552) is the IF, the other the RF plug-in. With the 8555 you can go up to 18 GHz. In this case, I'll consider the 8445 preselector. They are still worth 500$--1500$ depending on the plug-in and accessories. Now I have a HP 8566A (100 Hz-22GHz) which I payed a little more of a complete HP 141 system. My father has a HP 8568B (100Hz-1.8 Ghz), that one is less expensive. Signal generator I'll consider building a DDS generator kit for frequency 150 MHz. Analog generators/sweepers are relatively cheap, but they are not stable in frequency. If your target is high frequency, the HP 8620C sweeper series is a good compromise. Get a C mainframe, get the 86222 and 86290 plug-ins and you can sweep from 10 MHz to 18 GHz. 8620C+86222 run at about 300$--400$; the 86290 can go up to 500$ (watch ebay for deals). If you buy an EIP source-locking counter, you can phase-lock them. Lower prices for the heavy, old BWO-based HP 8690 sweepers. I can't recommend them, unless you find a good deal, with the complete plug-in series. If you need a synthesizer, HP models are generally more expensive (but also more fixable, in general) than Marconi, Giga-tronics and Fluke. I have a Marconi 2019 (80 kHz-1040 MHz) and it works fine and it's clean enough for my needs. If you buy one, make sure it's 100% working, they are tricky to fix. Network analyzers Wonderful instruments. Very sophisticated. People still write entire PhD theses on their calibration theory. Please don't take it badly, but if you don't really know how to use them, you don't need them, since a spectrum analyzer and a tracking generator will solve your problems and save you a lot of money. However, if you want to acquire some pieces of history, look for the HP 8410 from 1970's, it uses the 8620 as sweeper: the HP8412 display + 8410 IF should go for 200$, S-parameters test-set 8745 (0.1-2 GHz) or 8746 (0.5-12/18 GHz) for 300$; the 8511 sampler converter is about 100$: get at least two. If you have money _and_ you need it, the HP 8510C is the best VNA ever made. But the 8510 is just the display (85101) and the IF (85102), you need a sweeper (8340 or 8341 or newer models) and the test-set (8515, 8514 etc) AND the interconnecting cables. Once you have all that, you have a Ferrari without tires. You need at least two test cables, calibration grade adapters and calibration standards... new tires will cost much more than the second-hand Ferrari. Both instruments are reparable, if you don't blow up the unobtanium RF parts (samplers and pulse generators for the test-sets, wideband amplifiers and YIG oscillators for the source). (By the way, new VNA models from Agilent, Anrits, RS all have an embedded PC with MS Windows and a hard drive. This simply means they are not designed to last 20+ years, but perhaps it's not fair to compare them with my HP 8510B...) Oh, yes... one thing more: a PC with a National Instruments GPIB board if you plan to automate your measurements. Good luck Marco Garelli, AI4YH ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
-Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gerhard Hoffmann Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 2:50 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Lux, Jim (337C) wrote: What frequency ranges? If you are interested in 60MHz, then something like the TenTec TAPR VNA ($600) connects to a PC or a mac. Works as a signal generator and as a 2 port VNA. Or this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VNWA/ (DG8SAQ) Excellent to 500 MHz, quite usable to 1300 MHz. Does 6 or 12 term error correction, most of this VNA is software. I'm just using one to tune a 100 MHz oscillator with opened loop. :-) The only drawback is that one cannot measure compression because the absolute levels vary over f. But then it can embed / de-embed, virtual match, display the Q and equivalent circuit of a crystal from S11 measurement, L, C, time gating and and and. Outstanding.. that one is very competitive in price (using a ballpark $2/GBP conversion) to the TAPR one. I'm glad that more of these are becoming available (as assembled units, not as kits..) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
I mostly agree, but for a VNA, consider the HP 8505A. It only goes to about 1.8 GHz, but is leaa of a dinosaur than the 8410 system. -John = John Foege wrote: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. John, I hope my first post on this Forum will be useful to you... I was in your same position two or three years ago. I have to say that ebay is really handy, but I suggest you first to try with swapfests and flea-markets. There you can speak with the seller, and _ask_ for a demonstration if there's a AC plug close by. My only suggestion is: buy what you need now, and save money for the future. Oscilloscopes If I'm not wrong, Tektronix is selling its entry-level models at around 1000$. I have a TDS 210: small, portable, fits 100% the requirements for a general purpose scope. However, I use most my old Tek 475A (analog, 200 MHz bandwidth) Spectrum Analyzer I have started with a HP 141T system, a real workhorse (and reparable). The 141 is actually the mainframe, then you need the 855x series plug-in. One (8552) is the IF, the other the RF plug-in. With the 8555 you can go up to 18 GHz. In this case, I'll consider the 8445 preselector. They are still worth 500$--1500$ depending on the plug-in and accessories. Now I have a HP 8566A (100 Hz-22GHz) which I payed a little more of a complete HP 141 system. My father has a HP 8568B (100Hz-1.8 Ghz), that one is less expensive. Signal generator I'll consider building a DDS generator kit for frequency 150 MHz. Analog generators/sweepers are relatively cheap, but they are not stable in frequency. If your target is high frequency, the HP 8620C sweeper series is a good compromise. Get a C mainframe, get the 86222 and 86290 plug-ins and you can sweep from 10 MHz to 18 GHz. 8620C+86222 run at about 300$--400$; the 86290 can go up to 500$ (watch ebay for deals). If you buy an EIP source-locking counter, you can phase-lock them. Lower prices for the heavy, old BWO-based HP 8690 sweepers. I can't recommend them, unless you find a good deal, with the complete plug-in series. If you need a synthesizer, HP models are generally more expensive (but also more fixable, in general) than Marconi, Giga-tronics and Fluke. I have a Marconi 2019 (80 kHz-1040 MHz) and it works fine and it's clean enough for my needs. If you buy one, make sure it's 100% working, they are tricky to fix. Network analyzers Wonderful instruments. Very sophisticated. People still write entire PhD theses on their calibration theory. Please don't take it badly, but if you don't really know how to use them, you don't need them, since a spectrum analyzer and a tracking generator will solve your problems and save you a lot of money. However, if you want to acquire some pieces of history, look for the HP 8410 from 1970's, it uses the 8620 as sweeper: the HP8412 display + 8410 IF should go for 200$, S-parameters test-set 8745 (0.1-2 GHz) or 8746 (0.5-12/18 GHz) for 300$; the 8511 sampler converter is about 100$: get at least two. If you have money _and_ you need it, the HP 8510C is the best VNA ever made. But the 8510 is just the display (85101) and the IF (85102), you need a sweeper (8340 or 8341 or newer models) and the test-set (8515, 8514 etc) AND the interconnecting cables. Once you have all that, you have a Ferrari without tires. You need at least two test cables, calibration grade adapters and calibration standards... new tires will cost much more than the second-hand Ferrari. Both instruments are reparable, if you don't blow up the unobtanium RF parts (samplers and pulse generators for the test-sets, wideband amplifiers and YIG oscillators for the source). (By the way, new VNA models from Agilent, Anrits, RS all have an embedded PC with MS Windows and a hard drive. This simply means they are not designed to last 20+ years, but perhaps it's not fair to compare them with my HP 8510B...) Oh, yes... one thing more: a PC with a National Instruments GPIB board if you plan to automate your measurements. Good luck Marco Garelli, AI4YH ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
You could also get really hardcore and build the VNA described in DUBUS 4/2009 by HB9TXV. Very nice piece of work, usable to 30 GHz. -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Lux, Jim (337C) Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:44 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gerhard Hoffmann Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 2:50 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Lux, Jim (337C) wrote: What frequency ranges? If you are interested in 60MHz, then something like the TenTec TAPR VNA ($600) connects to a PC or a mac. Works as a signal generator and as a 2 port VNA. Or this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VNWA/ (DG8SAQ) Excellent to 500 MHz, quite usable to 1300 MHz. Does 6 or 12 term error correction, most of this VNA is software. I'm just using one to tune a 100 MHz oscillator with opened loop. :-) The only drawback is that one cannot measure compression because the absolute levels vary over f. But then it can embed / de-embed, virtual match, display the Q and equivalent circuit of a crystal from S11 measurement, L, C, time gating and and and. Outstanding.. that one is very competitive in price (using a ballpark $2/GBP conversion) to the TAPR one. I'm glad that more of these are becoming available (as assembled units, not as kits..) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
John Miles wrote: You could also get really hardcore and build the VNA described in DUBUS 4/2009 by HB9TXV. Very nice piece of work, usable to 30 GHz. Yes, but there's a hole for the first 5 GHz...We were already dicussing how to fix this... This VNA should run with DG8SAQ software with minimum modifications :-) 73, Gerhard ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Probably just a typo - but - the 8505A only goes to 1.3 GHz. - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:17 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I mostly agree, but for a VNA, consider the HP 8505A. It only goes to about 1.8 GHz, but is leaa of a dinosaur than the 8410 system. -John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
Oops. -John Probably just a typo - but - the 8505A only goes to 1.3 GHz. - Mike Mike B. Feher, N4FS 89 Arnold Blvd. Howell, NJ, 07731 732-886-5960 -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of J. Forster Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 7:17 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I mostly agree, but for a VNA, consider the HP 8505A. It only goes to about 1.8 GHz, but is leaa of a dinosaur than the 8410 system. -John ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
But only starts at 5GHz :-( :-( Luis Cupido ct1dmk John Miles wrote: You could also get really hardcore and build the VNA described in DUBUS 4/2009 by HB9TXV. Very nice piece of work, usable to 30 GHz. -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com]on Behalf Of Lux, Jim (337C) Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 3:44 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of Gerhard Hoffmann Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 2:50 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment Lux, Jim (337C) wrote: What frequency ranges? If you are interested in 60MHz, then something like the TenTec TAPR VNA ($600) connects to a PC or a mac. Works as a signal generator and as a 2 port VNA. Or this one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/VNWA/ (DG8SAQ) Excellent to 500 MHz, quite usable to 1300 MHz. Does 6 or 12 term error correction, most of this VNA is software. I'm just using one to tune a 100 MHz oscillator with opened loop. :-) The only drawback is that one cannot measure compression because the absolute levels vary over f. But then it can embed / de-embed, virtual match, display the Q and equivalent circuit of a crystal from S11 measurement, L, C, time gating and and and. Outstanding.. that one is very competitive in price (using a ballpark $2/GBP conversion) to the TAPR one. I'm glad that more of these are becoming available (as assembled units, not as kits..) ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
I have 3 5345s with the good ovens and indeed they are very stable. Use the gps just to check things. Keep it simple. Its unfortunate but there used to be flea markets with truckloads of test equipment. Very inexpensive power supplies and everything else. But much of that has gone to ebay. You still find a bargain now and again. But nothing like 5 years ago. You are doing well. Another thing I have noticed is even the cheap digital voltmeters are really very good these days. Technology moves on. Sometimes for the good and the bad. Good luck On Thu, Jan 21, 2010 at 4:39 PM, Bob Camp li...@cq.nu wrote: Hi Nothing about a lab is one size fits all. That said, I think you probably will need to add: A way to come up with 3 DC voltages. Either a triple supply or 3 independent supplies. Something like 0-7V @ 5-10A and a couple of 0-32V at 1-3A supplies. Something to measure volts and amps. Handheld meters are very neat and they can do a lot. I happen to like bench DVM's simply because they don't walk around the bench as I tug on the leads. A bench computer. It doesn't need to be the latest and greatest. Something that will barely run XP is probably plenty good enough. It does need to have a net connection, a serial port, a parallel port, and a sound card. A (mostly) working display is also helpful. If you get exotic, it should have at least one USB port. A *good* soldering setup. I've seen more people destroy stuff with low end soldering gear than just about any other thing. A stock of parts and wire. What we are talking about here is really how to allocate a limited budget. Parts are just as important as anything else you set up in a lab. Save some money to at least put in a stock of resistors and common capacitors. Someplace to work. The kitchen table isn't going to cut it for long. Don't buy more stuff than you have room to use. Also don't empty out all the quarters from the cookie jar before a table or bench gets bought. The strength of the bench may be a significant issue as you shop for test gear. For radio specific stuff: Some kind of RF signal source. Usually a signal generator for the bands that interest you. It can be as simple as an old LM frequency meter or it can cost as much as a new car... A way to measure RF power accurately. You can do this with a scope or a spectrum analyzer, but an RF power meter is more likely to give you a good answer. An audio generator. You could do it with a sound card, but that can get pretty tedious. Audio / function generators are pretty cheap if you shop around. If you'd been at the Dayton Hamfest in 1981 I would have gladly sold you a good one for $15 (your choice from the 4 pallets full). A radio power supply. Depending on what you run, this might not be much. A supply that will adjust at least from 10 to 15 volts that puts out 20 to 30A is what I would recommend. The list could go on and on, but it does very much depend on what you want to do. Bob -Original Message- From: time-nuts-boun...@febo.com [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] On Behalf Of John Foege Sent: Thursday, January 21, 2010 1:35 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] Test Equipment I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
It all depends on what you want to do! I prefer my 2465 to the 2012. I am comfortable with the analog scope! My most used instrument is a Radio test set HP8920A. The spectrum analyser HP8592A is least used ! Raj vu2zap I realize that this e-mail is somewhat off topic, however, I also believe that I will get some of the best answers from the members of this list: I have recently started to build an electronics lab, and am currently trying to acquire test and general equipment for my little basement workshop of horrors. So far, being on a limited budget, I have acquired a Tek 2465A in good working order, a Fluke 1953A counter, and my little gem (ok not quite so little) HP5345A with the 4-ghz freq converter plugin w/ opt 11 12. I'd just like to ask everyone what they would be, if they were in my shoes, attempting to acquire. Unforunately, however, I am just out of engineering school and not working with much of a budget here. I'd kill to have all the fancy gear some of you nuts have. I'd really love a DSO instead of the Tek 2465A I have. I'd kill for a good spectrum analyzer or VNA etc. Any suggestions on what I should acquire and/or suggestions for economical equipment that I should make that is a must have? I am a good DIYer when it comes to building equipment, so often I attempt to build that which I cannot afford. I appreciate everyone's' opinions in advance. Thank you. Sincerely, John Foege KB1FSX starving-engineer! ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test Equipment
- Original Message - From: paul swed paulsw...@gmail.com Its unfortunate but there used to be flea markets with truckloads of test equipment. Very inexpensive power supplies and everything else. But much of that has gone to ebay. You still find a bargain now and again. But nothing like 5 years ago. The dollar buys less than it did a mere 5 years ago; the flea market is a real market and there is a lot of stuff IMHO sitting on shelves unsold. ebay also has a lot of stuff in stores with absurd prices on it; it won't sell either. Eventually the prices will drop, I hope... Don ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment-level phase noise PLLs
Matt Ettus wrote: In looking into extremely low phase noise synthesizers, I have come across the new HMC700LP4 chip from hittite, which seems to have the best figure of merit I have found, -227 dBm/Hz. That gives you -107dBc/Hz at 20 kHz offset at 6 GHz according to the datasheets. That sounds amazingly good, but my R+S signal generator does better. Do they use a different sort of architecture? Do they not use conventional dividers? Some other sort of phase detector? Thanks, Matt Matt, They usually use a microwave mixer heterodyning against a harmonic multiplier driven by the reference frequency, producing an IF in the 30-50 MHz area. Often there will be a dual loop PLL to improve performance. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] Test equipment-level phase noise PLLs
I've played with the Hittite chips before and obtained PN results in the same ballpark (see http://www.ke5fx.com/hpll.htm ), but at 8 GHz rather than 6 GHz. To save further head-scratching, the figure of merit on these chips works like this: In-band phase noise in dBc/Hz = FOM + 10*log(Fcomp) + 20*log(N) This is the best-case noise level that you will get assuming a perfectly-clean reference and no VCO noise contribution. As usual, Hittite's less-than-ideal data sheet doesn't make that relationship clear. Specifically, the 5.8-GHz integer-N plot in figure 1 appear to have been made with a 50 MHz comparison frequency and N=116. -107 dBc/Hz - 77 - 41 = -225 dBc/Hz. From that relationship, you can see that minimizing N is the most important thing you can do. Good-quality signal generators work on the basis of minimizing N at all costs. Fractional techniques are common but the ultimate performance still comes from cascaded or nested synthesis stages with an integer-N output loop. The HP 8672/8673 family, for instance, uses a comparison frequency (really a harmonic sampler drive signal) in the 200 MHz neighborhood. They still don't achieve inband PN better than about -100 dBc/Hz, because the earlier stages that generate the Fcomp signal are relatively noisy. It's safe to say that your RS synthesizer uses a similarly-low N factor, cleaner reference synthesizers, and a cleaner output loop. The easy way to get a few more dB out of the Hittite chip would be to run with an Fcomp in the 100 MHz vicinity instead of 50 MHz. It is rated for Fcomp = 140 MHz in the (quieter) integer-N mode. -- john, KE5FX -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Matt Ettus Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2008 1:16 PM To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement Subject: [time-nuts] Test equipment-level phase noise PLLs In looking into extremely low phase noise synthesizers, I have come across the new HMC700LP4 chip from hittite, which seems to have the best figure of merit I have found, -227 dBm/Hz. That gives you -107dBc/Hz at 20 kHz offset at 6 GHz according to the datasheets. That sounds amazingly good, but my R+S signal generator does better. Do they use a different sort of architecture? Do they not use conventional dividers? Some other sort of phase detector? Thanks, Matt ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
