Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[jimlux]

On 4/7/17 7:10 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:

Jim wrote:


Charles wrote:



[blob over wire bond construction]
is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects
such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants.
In my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely
disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable
cameras.



Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware.  It is much
less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick film
hybrids and similar schemes.


Very interesting.


I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on
there and so forth.


No doubt.  I suspect also that space flight hardware doesn't use blobs
on plain FR4.  While one problem with the blob technique is the
permeability of the blob material, another is the permeability of the
substrate -- and FR4 is pretty bad in this regard.


We fly a fair amount of FR4 - sure, we might do some coupons or get 
source traceability. And it depends on the mission - a billion dollar 
mission to Europa is different than others.







It would not surprise me to find that space-qualified blob material is
very different from consumer-grade blob material, and is actually *more*
expensive than using consumer-grade packaged die would be (which would,
of course, defeat the purpose of using it for consumer circuits).


Not necessarily - the market for "custom hi-rel" stuff is getting 
smaller every day and a lot of times it just isn't available at all. You 
might want to choose a material with the right properties, but stuff 
that's made in large volumes tends to be pretty consistent - a mass 
market product can't have a huge dead on arrival rate.  I'd say 
automotive applications probably have the most stringent, yet cost 
sensitive, requirements.








I suppose in the vacuum of space permeability to gasses and humidity may
be less of a problem than it is in Earth's atmosphere, so the blob may
need to be the primary means to prevent ingress of gasses and humidity
only from the time of construction until launch.


But that is a fairly long time - launch delays are pretty common.
It's not unusual for something to be launched 5-6 years after being 
built (and, of course, spares for mission 1 get used on mission 2, 
coming along behind).


Sure, we're not doing salt spray tests or condensing humidity - but most 
space electronics sits in a regular old airconditioned room for years.

(The days of ashtrays built into the test console are long gone)




Makers of space flight hardware can also afford to spend more for
materials with similar coefficients of thermal expansion than makers of
consumer devices can.


True enough - but then even for cheap commercial stuff, the CTEs are 
published. It's pretty easy to get the right materials.  (barring buying 
your raw materials on eBay from unknown vendors, but then who knows what 
you're getting.. it's one step from a guy in an alley  saying "hey, I've 
got some nice 2 part epoxy here, in the original package, fell off the 
back of a truck, I can let you have it for a good price, as long as it's 
cash"




The real issue with CTE these days is large ceramic packages (e.g. those 
1000+ pin BGA/CGA packages) vs the boards (whether FR-4 or polyimide) - 
given that we're not using anywhere near 1000 pins, a few dozen bond 
wires on a the die seems like a great idea.


ANd bonding the die to the board is a lot better thermal transmission wise



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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[jimlux]

On 4/7/17 6:25 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi


On Apr 7, 2017, at 7:19 PM, jimlux  wrote:

On 4/7/17 3:45 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:

Bob wrote:


The epoxy over wire bond construction approach
is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly.


It is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects
such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants.  In
my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely
disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras.



Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware.


Humidity does not tend to be a big issue once you get in space :)

Bob



Yeah, but you sit for years on the ground waiting, in tropical areas no 
less.




 It is much less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick 
film hybrids and similar schemes.

You can can do a pre-cap inspection, then apply the potting material, and then 
you could even xray it to see if the bond wires moved or something.

A flipchip with a blob is even better.

It's even reworkable (e.g. you can soften the blob & solder and scrape the die 
off and bond a new one down).

I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on there and 
so forth.






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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Apr 7, 2017, at 10:10 PM, Charles Steinmetz  wrote:
> 
> Jim wrote:
> 
>> Charles wrote:
> 
>>> [blob over wire bond construction]
>>> is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects
>>> such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants.
>>> In my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely
>>> disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable
>>> cameras.
> 
>> Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware.  It is much
>> less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick film
>> hybrids and similar schemes.
> 
> Very interesting.
> 
>> I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on
>> there and so forth.
> 
> No doubt.  I suspect also that space flight hardware doesn't use blobs on 
> plain FR4.  While one problem with the blob technique is the permeability of 
> the blob material, another is the permeability of the substrate -- and FR4 is 
> pretty bad in this regard.

Unless you are building a thick film on ceramic, or a thin film on glass, the 
rest of the likely substrates are pretty permeable.

> 
> It would not surprise me to find that space-qualified blob material is very 
> different from consumer-grade blob material, and is actually *more* expensive 
> than using consumer-grade packaged die would be (which would, of course, 
> defeat the purpose of using it for consumer circuits).
> 
> I suppose in the vacuum of space permeability to gasses and humidity may be 
> less of a problem than it is in Earth's atmosphere, so the blob may need to 
> be the primary means to prevent ingress of gasses and humidity only from the 
> time of construction until launch.

The other feature it provides is vibration protection for the wire bonds during 
launch. One would *hope* the device is stored in a low humidity package or dry 
box for the time (possibly years) between manufacture and launch.  

> 
> Makers of space flight hardware can also afford to spend more for materials 
> with similar coefficients of thermal expansion than makers of consumer 
> devices can.

As long as the interface materials (mounting cement and die coat) are a bit 
elastic, you can get some pretty good thermo cycle performance out of the 
normal mismatches. 

Bob

> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Charles
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[paul swed]

Mike you may have missed it in the thread. I made a mistake its not the
cme8000 chip.
Thats a classic am decoder. *You want the ES100*. Thats a true wwvb bpsk
decoder. Contact La Crosse and ask if they have a model.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Mike Seguin <n1...@burlingtontelecom.net>
wrote:

> Does anyone know of a clock with digital readout that uses the CME-8000?
>
> Tnx,
> Mike
>
>
> On 2017-04-07 13:03, Tom Van Baak wrote:
>
>> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver.
>>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's
>> the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both
>> used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's
>> nice to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product!
>>
>>
>> I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos:
>>
>> http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/
>>
>> I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some
>> experiments. The obvious ones are:
>>
>> 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of
>> different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB
>> clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors.
>>
>> 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a
>> variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the
>> tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors.
>> Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough.
>> Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a
>> stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get
>> a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter,
>> or picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note
>> the signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels,
>> and they do NOT drive 50R!
>>
>>
>> If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we
>> get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based
>> on the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be
>> like a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of
>> applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is
>> receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and
>> low-power factor.
>>
>> /tvb
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "paul swed" <paulsw...@gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <
>> time-nuts@febo.com>
>> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
>>
>>
>> Tom
>> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver.
>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> ailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
>>
> ---
> 73,
> Mike, N1JEZ
> "A closed mouth gathers no feet"
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Charles Steinmetz]

Jim wrote:


Charles wrote:



[blob over wire bond construction]
is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects
such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants.
In my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely
disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable
cameras.



Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware.  It is much
less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick film
hybrids and similar schemes.


Very interesting.


I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on
there and so forth.


No doubt.  I suspect also that space flight hardware doesn't use blobs 
on plain FR4.  While one problem with the blob technique is the 
permeability of the blob material, another is the permeability of the 
substrate -- and FR4 is pretty bad in this regard.


It would not surprise me to find that space-qualified blob material is 
very different from consumer-grade blob material, and is actually *more* 
expensive than using consumer-grade packaged die would be (which would, 
of course, defeat the purpose of using it for consumer circuits).


I suppose in the vacuum of space permeability to gasses and humidity may 
be less of a problem than it is in Earth's atmosphere, so the blob may 
need to be the primary means to prevent ingress of gasses and humidity 
only from the time of construction until launch.


Makers of space flight hardware can also afford to spend more for 
materials with similar coefficients of thermal expansion than makers of 
consumer devices can.


Best regards,

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Mike Seguin]

Does anyone know of a clock with digital readout that uses the CME-8000?

Tnx,
Mike

On 2017-04-07 13:03, Tom Van Baak wrote:
Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am 
receiver.

It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.


Hi Paul,

I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's
the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both
used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's
nice to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product!


I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos:

http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/

I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some
experiments. The obvious ones are:

1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of
different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB
clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors.

2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a
variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the
tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors.
Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough.
Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a
stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get
a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter,
or picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note
the signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels,
and they do NOT drive 50R!


If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we
get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based
on the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be
like a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of
applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is
receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and
low-power factor.

/tvb

- Original Message -
From: "paul swed" <paulsw...@gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
<time-nuts@febo.com>

Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home


Tom
Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am 
receiver.

It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


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---
73,
Mike, N1JEZ
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"

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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Apr 7, 2017, at 7:19 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 4/7/17 3:45 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:
>> Bob wrote:
>> 
>>> The epoxy over wire bond construction approach
>>> is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly.
>> 
>> It is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects
>> such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants.  In
>> my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely
>> disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras.
>> 
> 
> Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware.

Humidity does not tend to be a big issue once you get in space :)

Bob

>  It is much less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick 
> film hybrids and similar schemes.
> 
> You can can do a pre-cap inspection, then apply the potting material, and 
> then you could even xray it to see if the bond wires moved or something.
> 
> A flipchip with a blob is even better.
> 
> It's even reworkable (e.g. you can soften the blob & solder and scrape the 
> die off and bond a new one down).
> 
> I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on there 
> and so forth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Charles Steinmetz]

Bob wrote:


The epoxy over wire bond construction approach
is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly.


It is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects 
such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants.  In 
my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely 
disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras.


Best regards.

Charles


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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[jimlux]

On 4/7/17 3:45 PM, Charles Steinmetz wrote:

Bob wrote:


The epoxy over wire bond construction approach
is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly.


It is also extremely unreliable, particularly WRT environmental effects
such as temperature changes, humidity, and atmospheric pollutants.  In
my view, it is unsuitable for use in anything but dirt cheap, purely
disposable devices like greeting-card audio players and disposable cameras.



Interestingly enough it *is* used in space flight hardware.  It is much 
less expensive, lighter weight and easier to inspect than thick film 
hybrids and similar schemes.


You can can do a pre-cap inspection, then apply the potting material, 
and then you could even xray it to see if the bond wires moved or something.


A flipchip with a blob is even better.

It's even reworkable (e.g. you can soften the blob & solder and scrape 
the die off and bond a new one down).


I suspect that there is a wide variation in the material you blob on 
there and so forth.







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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[paul swed]

Hello to the group. No there is not a way to bring that information out.
In fact it samples things much like other Time nuts threads have been
discussing on GPS.

It then stores the samples and figures out the data. So every 1.5 minutes
you get a complete sentence. Its actually a bit more tricky then that
because there are several modes to operate with. After getting a sentence
you can operate in a short mode that allows the system to figure out the
start of a minute and the tick.

So that all sounds very bad. But actually its not.
The sentence is quite complex especially with the error coding. Then there
are also bits you simply can't easily determine because they can be
changed. (Not that I have actually seen this) Obtaining the sentence allows
you to fabricate the next sentences and then flip the incoming carrier one
way or the other to remove the BPSK.

That is exactly how the cheat'n-d-psk-r works though I just grab GPS time
and fabricate the message straight out. This all requires 64 bit variables
and math.
Yes I could indeed use this wwvb signal. Just lazy and the cheatn d-psk-r
GPS works very well so have not been motivated to change.
Tom thanks for Orens email.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 3:20 PM, Bob kb8tq <kb...@n1k.org> wrote:

> Hi
>
> > On Apr 7, 2017, at 1:16 PM, John Ackermann N8UR <j...@febo.com> wrote:
> >
> > Is there any way to derive carrier phase from these chips?  Or to get
> raw modulation data that might make it usable as the front end to one of
> PaulS's de-PSKers?
>
> Unless it shows up on one of the test points on the photo’s, I suspect
> not. The epoxy over wire bond construction
> approach is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly.
>
> The good news is that they do prove the new modulation works pretty darn
> well in a number of locations. That at least
> adds to the justification to do up some sort of receiver that works with
> it.
>
> Bob
>
> >
> > On Apr 7, 2017, 1:04 PM, at 1:04 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com>
> wrote:
> >>> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am
> >> receiver.
> >>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
> >>
> >> Hi Paul,
> >>
> >> I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's
> >> the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both
> >> used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice
> >> to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product!
> >>
> >>
> >> I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos:
> >>
> >> http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/
> >>
> >> I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some
> >> experiments. The obvious ones are:
> >>
> >> 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of
> >> different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB
> >> clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors.
> >>
> >> 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a
> >> variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the
> >> tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors.
> >> Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough.
> >> Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a
> >> stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get
> >> a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter, or
> >> picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note the
> >> signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels, and
> >> they do NOT drive 50R!
> >>
> >>
> >> If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we
> >> get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on
> >> the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like
> >> a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of
> >> applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is
> >> receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and
> >> low-power factor.
> >>
> >> /tvb
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: "paul swed" <paulsw...@gmail.com>
> >> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
> >> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> >> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
&g

Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Apr 7, 2017, at 1:16 PM, John Ackermann N8UR <j...@febo.com> wrote:
> 
> Is there any way to derive carrier phase from these chips?  Or to get raw 
> modulation data that might make it usable as the front end to one of PaulS's 
> de-PSKers?

Unless it shows up on one of the test points on the photo’s, I suspect not. The 
epoxy over wire bond construction 
approach is low cost, and not very experimenter friendly. 

The good news is that they do prove the new modulation works pretty darn well 
in a number of locations. That at least 
adds to the justification to do up some sort of receiver that works with it. 

Bob

> 
> On Apr 7, 2017, 1:04 PM, at 1:04 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:
>>> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am
>> receiver.
>>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
>> 
>> Hi Paul,
>> 
>> I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's
>> the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both
>> used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice
>> to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product!
>> 
>> 
>> I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos:
>> 
>> http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/
>> 
>> I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some
>> experiments. The obvious ones are:
>> 
>> 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of
>> different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB
>> clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors.
>> 
>> 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a
>> variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the
>> tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors.
>> Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough.
>> Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a
>> stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get
>> a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter, or
>> picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note the
>> signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels, and
>> they do NOT drive 50R!
>> 
>> 
>> If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we
>> get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on
>> the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like
>> a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of
>> applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is
>> receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and
>> low-power factor.
>> 
>> /tvb
>> 
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "paul swed" <paulsw...@gmail.com>
>> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
>> <time-nuts@febo.com>
>> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
>> 
>> 
>> Tom
>> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am
>> receiver.
>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> 
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>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
>> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Since it’s a magnetic stepper motor, how about a magnetic (coil) sensor? 

Based on past data, anything past 1us is massive overkill. A mag sensor 
with a ~100 KHz bandwidth should be a do-able sort of thing. A couple dozen 
turns of wire around a suitable ferrite rod might be enough. 

Bob

> On Apr 7, 2017, at 1:03 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:
> 
>> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver.
>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's the 
> EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both used the 
> early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice to see the 
> chip still lives and finally made it to a product!
> 
> 
> I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos:
> 
> http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/
> 
> I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some experiments. 
> The obvious ones are:
> 
> 1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of 
> different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB 
> clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors.
> 
> 2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a variety of 
> piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the tick), optical 
> sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors. Some of these are 
> passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough. Others require some level 
> of disassembly but are more precise. For a stepper motor clock it's easy to 
> tap onto the coil connections and get a sharp pulse every second or two. Then 
> use a time interval counter, or picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to 
> collect readings. Note the signal level is usually low power and below 
> typical TTL levels, and they do NOT drive 50R!
> 
> 
> If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we get 
> someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on the ES100 
> chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like a million times 
> worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of applications need only ms level 
> timing; there are places where WWVB is receivable and GNSS is not; and then 
> there's the redundancy and low-power factor.
> 
> /tvb
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "paul swed" <paulsw...@gmail.com>
> To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" 
> <time-nuts@febo.com>
> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
> 
> 
> Tom
> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver.
> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[John Ackermann N8UR]

Is there any way to derive carrier phase from these chips?  Or to get raw 
modulation data that might make it usable as the front end to one of PaulS's 
de-PSKers?

On Apr 7, 2017, 1:04 PM, at 1:04 PM, Tom Van Baak <t...@leapsecond.com> wrote:
>> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am
>receiver.
>> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
>
>Hi Paul,
>
>I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's
>the EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both
>used the early Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice
>to see the chip still lives and finally made it to a product!
>
>
>I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos:
>
>http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/
>
>I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some
>experiments. The obvious ones are:
>
>1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of
>different and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB
>clocks. Check for off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors.
>
>2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a
>variety of piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the
>tick), optical sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors.
>Some of these are passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough.
>Others require some level of disassembly but are more precise. For a
>stepper motor clock it's easy to tap onto the coil connections and get
>a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a time interval counter, or
>picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect readings. Note the
>signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL levels, and
>they do NOT drive 50R!
>
>
>If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we
>get someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on
>the ES100 chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like
>a million times worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of
>applications need only ms level timing; there are places where WWVB is
>receivable and GNSS is not; and then there's the redundancy and
>low-power factor.
>
>/tvb
>
>- Original Message - 
>From: "paul swed" <paulsw...@gmail.com>
>To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement"
><time-nuts@febo.com>
>Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM
>Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home
>
>
>Tom
>Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am
>receiver.
>It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
>Regards
>Paul
>WB8TSL
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Tom Van Baak]

> Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver.
> It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.

Hi Paul,

I can confirm (from talking with the guys backing it) that, yes, it's the 
EverSet ES100, in die form (CoB). I believe you and I have both used the early 
Xtendwave dev kits with the ES100 as SMT part. It's nice to see the chip still 
lives and finally made it to a product!


I uploaded more ultrAtomic info and tear-down photos:

http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/

I encourage those of you who just bought these clocks to do some experiments. 
The obvious ones are:

1) See how long it takes to acquire the correct time, at all sorts of different 
and difficult environments, compared to the traditional WWVB clocks. Check for 
off-by-one second, or minute, or hour errors.

2) See how accurate they really are. For clocks like this I use a variety of 
piezo sensors (feel the tick), acoustic sensors (hear the tick), optical 
sensors (see the tick), and mostly electrical sensors. Some of these are 
passive (non-destructive) timings and good enough. Others require some level of 
disassembly but are more precise. For a stepper motor clock it's easy to tap 
onto the coil connections and get a sharp pulse every second or two. Then use a 
time interval counter, or picPET, or TICC, or PC-based PPS-capture to collect 
readings. Note the signal level is usually low power and below typical TTL 
levels, and they do NOT drive 50R!


If all goes well, we can soon talk about a time-nuts special where we get 
someone to make a timing board or disciplined timing board based on the ES100 
chip. The bad news is that at the same price it would be like a million times 
worse than GPS. The good news is that lots of applications need only ms level 
timing; there are places where WWVB is receivable and GNSS is not; and then 
there's the redundancy and low-power factor.

/tvb

- Original Message - 
From: "paul swed" <paulsw...@gmail.com>
To: "Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement" <time-nuts@febo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2017 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home


Tom
Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver.
It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[paul swed]

Tom
Very good catch it is *not* the cme8000 chip. Thats a classic am receiver.
It is the everset chip. Sorry for mis-leading.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 9:25 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> I’m sure it would have happily corrected for summer time in Europe two
> weeks later …. Provided (of course) it got the switch
> codes from DCF77 to tell it when to do so. My guess is that the tiny
> little watch antenna isn’t very good picking up time code
> from the other side of the Atlantic :) As I understand the beast it makes
> no attempt to work out when a shift should happen. It
> simply pulls data off of the RF signal to tell it what to do.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Apr 6, 2017, at 7:53 PM, Martin VE3OAT  wrote:
> >
> > Bob, if you had your watch set to European time, could the fact that
> Europe changes to daylight time about two weeks after we do in North
> America have anything to do with it?
> >
> > ... Martin   VE3OAT
> >
> > Bob (KB8TW) wrote :
> >>
> >> On a side note, my Citizen WWVB watch missed the change to DST this
> year.
> >> I still had it set to European time and it was not able to figure out
> which system
> >> to update to. I suppose it also may have been looking for DCF77 rather
> than WWVB.
> >>
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

I’m sure it would have happily corrected for summer time in Europe two weeks 
later …. Provided (of course) it got the switch 
codes from DCF77 to tell it when to do so. My guess is that the tiny little 
watch antenna isn’t very good picking up time code
from the other side of the Atlantic :) As I understand the beast it makes no 
attempt to work out when a shift should happen. It
simply pulls data off of the RF signal to tell it what to do. 
 
Bob

> On Apr 6, 2017, at 7:53 PM, Martin VE3OAT  wrote:
> 
> Bob, if you had your watch set to European time, could the fact that Europe 
> changes to daylight time about two weeks after we do in North America have 
> anything to do with it?
> 
> ... Martin   VE3OAT
> 
> Bob (KB8TW) wrote :
>> 
>> On a side note, my Citizen WWVB watch missed the change to DST this year.
>> I still had it set to European time and it was not able to figure out which 
>> system
>> to update to. I suppose it also may have been looking for DCF77 rather than 
>> WWVB.
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Martin VE3OAT]

Bob, if you had your watch set to European time, could the fact that 
Europe changes to daylight time about two weeks after we do in North 
America have anything to do with it?


... Martin   VE3OAT

Bob (KB8TW) wrote :


On a side note, my Citizen WWVB watch missed the change to DST this year.
I still had it set to European time and it was not able to figure out which 
system
to update to. I suppose it also may have been looking for DCF77 rather than 
WWVB.




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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[paul swed]

Yes its quite common. The clocks are always off by sometime and generally
never account for winter and summer time. Lastly ooops the ole batteries
dead or corroded.
In Broadcast facilities all of the clocks are actually driven by
synchronized time codes. Either LTC or IRIG. The clocks can be either
analog or digital.
Being a time nut numbers of my clocks run on LTC and I have used IRIG.
Silly. I know.

But what I can say is as mentioned the new ultraclocks should be very very
good over the troublesome AM units.
I used the CME8000 chip for quite some time supporting some testing.
Essentially logging when it did or didn't obtain complete sentances. Boy
did it work.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Hal Murray  wrote:

>
> kb...@n1k.org said:
> > UTC I understand. I’ve used that feature on “atomic” clocks in the past.
> > I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks
> > running on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks
> are
> > very much in favor of doing that :)
>
> I think it's common for companies/groups with offices in several countries
> to
> have a cluster of clocks showing the time in each office.
>
> 24 hour clocks would work better.  I think you have to correct for DST
> changes manually.
>
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions.  I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

In the office where I work, they have 5 clocks on the wall
showing local time here at HQ and at 4 other company sites.  It
is embarrassing that the clocks are always a few minutes
off from each other.  I can see where these would make sense.

Rick N6RK



On 4/5/2017 4:30 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

HI

UTC I understand. I’ve used that feature on “atomic” clocks in the past.
I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks running
on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are
very much in favor of doing that :)

Bob


On Apr 4, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  
wrote:



On 4/4/2017 3:19 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that
does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to
any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage
area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:)

Bob



This feature is mainly so you can set the time zone for GMT/UTC.
Hopefully, there is a way to turn off daylight savings time as well.
Many previous atomic clocks covered only the time zones near Boulder
and could not display UTC.

Rick N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Hal Murray]

kb...@n1k.org said:
> UTC I understand. I’ve used that feature on “atomic” clocks in the past.
> I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks
> running on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are
> very much in favor of doing that :) 

I think it's common for companies/groups with offices in several countries to 
have a cluster of clocks showing the time in each office.

24 hour clocks would work better.  I think you have to correct for DST 
changes manually.



-- 
These are my opinions.  I hate spam.



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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Apr 5, 2017, at 9:00 AM, Jim Harman  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks
>> running
>> on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are
>> very much in favor of doing that
>> 
> 
> It's probably for flashy newsrooms, where they like to have clocks with the
> time in London, Moscow, Tokyo, etc. It's nice to have all the second hands
> jumping simultaneously!
> 
> The challenge there is to keep the clocks correct for summer time, which
> changes on different dates in Europe and of course in the other direction
> in the Southern Hemisphere.

I’m *sure* :) that the embedded information in the chip takes care of all that 
stuff
correctly …. 

On a side note, my Citizen WWVB watch missed the change to DST this year. 
I still had it set to European time and it was not able to figure out which 
system
to update to. I suppose it also may have been looking for DCF77 rather than 
WWVB.

Multiple time zone stuff is *not* simple.

Bob


> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> --Jim Harman
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The Lacrosse wall clocks I’m using now are hybrid analog / digital displays. 
You get the time analog and the date off the digital display. For whatever 
reason, that model is now history. 

Bob

> On Apr 5, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  
> wrote:
> 
> Why? oh why? is this only available as an analog clock??
> I am wondering if Lacrosse only has the rights to an analog
> version and that a higher priced digital version will
> show up in some "professional" line from another vendor.
> This is at least a plausible theory because this is
> a well known business model:  "incremental" revenue
> that doesn't "cannibalize" the cash cow.  At least
> this is/was popular with HP/Agilent/Keysight management
> where I work(ed).
> 
> Rick N6RK
> 
> 
> On 4/4/2017 8:00 PM, paul swed wrote:
>> Really can't say that its c-max or not. Since if you try to download
>> anything from the sight the links are dead. But I do believe its the true
>> wwvb bpsk decoder. If it is the cme 8000 that chip works impressively well
>> even in New England.
>> But this is the first time I have stumbled across anything that used it if
>> I am guessing correctly. Heck I seem to remember it was supposed to be out
>> some 2-3 years ago around Christmas.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:04 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:
>> 
>>> I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC.
>>> 
>>> They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning
>>> when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK)
>>> WWVB wall clocks.
>>> 
>>> The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple
>>> years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a
>>> year before needing replacement.
>>> 
>>> I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year
>>> ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display
>>> can show UTC. About $90.
>>> 
>>> Tim N3QE
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com
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>>> 
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>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Jim Harman]

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks
> running
> on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are
> very much in favor of doing that
>

It's probably for flashy newsrooms, where they like to have clocks with the
time in London, Moscow, Tokyo, etc. It's nice to have all the second hands
jumping simultaneously!

The challenge there is to keep the clocks correct for summer time, which
changes on different dates in Europe and of course in the other direction
in the Southern Hemisphere.


-- 

--Jim Harman
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

Why? oh why? is this only available as an analog clock??
I am wondering if Lacrosse only has the rights to an analog
version and that a higher priced digital version will
show up in some "professional" line from another vendor.
This is at least a plausible theory because this is
a well known business model:  "incremental" revenue
that doesn't "cannibalize" the cash cow.  At least
this is/was popular with HP/Agilent/Keysight management
where I work(ed).

Rick N6RK


On 4/4/2017 8:00 PM, paul swed wrote:

Really can't say that its c-max or not. Since if you try to download
anything from the sight the links are dead. But I do believe its the true
wwvb bpsk decoder. If it is the cme 8000 that chip works impressively well
even in New England.
But this is the first time I have stumbled across anything that used it if
I am guessing correctly. Heck I seem to remember it was supposed to be out
some 2-3 years ago around Christmas.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:04 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:


I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC.

They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning
when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK)
WWVB wall clocks.

The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple
years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a
year before needing replacement.

I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year
ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display
can show UTC. About $90.

Tim N3QE
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[paul swed]

Will say that is pretty interesting that it takes either 2 or 4 c cells. It
appears they parallel the C cells for more time. In eco mode 2 batteries 3
years or 4 batteries 6 years. Run time will vary depending on the batteries
leaking in 3.5 years. At least it seems that way today. (Not to trigger a
left turn in the discussion)
All in all looks like a nice arrangement.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Wed, Apr 5, 2017 at 7:30 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> HI
>
> UTC I understand. I’ve used that feature on “atomic” clocks in the past.
> I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks
> running
> on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are
> very much in favor of doing that :)
>
> Bob
>
> > On Apr 4, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist <
> rich...@karlquist.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 4/4/2017 3:19 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version
> that
> >> does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set
> it to
> >> any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage
> >> area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:)
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >
> > This feature is mainly so you can set the time zone for GMT/UTC.
> > Hopefully, there is a way to turn off daylight savings time as well.
> > Many previous atomic clocks covered only the time zones near Boulder
> > and could not display UTC.
> >
> > Rick N6RK
> > ___
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> mailman/listinfo/time-nuts
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

HI

UTC I understand. I’ve used that feature on “atomic” clocks in the past. 
I’m still a bit unclear on how many people will set up a wall of clocks running
on a dozen or so time zones. Obviously the people making clocks are
very much in favor of doing that :)

Bob

> On Apr 4, 2017, at 7:56 PM, Richard (Rick) Karlquist  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 4/4/2017 3:19 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that
>> does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to
>> any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage
>> area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:)
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
> 
> This feature is mainly so you can set the time zone for GMT/UTC.
> Hopefully, there is a way to turn off daylight savings time as well.
> Many previous atomic clocks covered only the time zones near Boulder
> and could not display UTC.
> 
> Rick N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Tom Van Baak]

Paul, et al,

1)
The La Crosse 1235UA does indeed receive the new WWVB PSK format. It was first 
brought to our attention by Brooke Clarke some months ago:

https://www.febo.com/pipermail/time-nuts/2016-November/101885.html

Prices vary from affordable to lets-see-how-much-we-can-charge, depending on 
the month and source. I bought a couple to measure and tear apart.

As advertised and predicted they set themselves within minutes, at all times of 
day, even under adverse reception conditions. Those of you new to the 
"enhanced" (and mostly backwards-compatible) WWVB format can look at hundreds 
of postings in the time-nuts archives in the past 5 years (google for 
site:febo.com wwvb psk) where we discussed this topic.


2)
The La Crosse movement is made by U.T.S. -- the same German OEM (www.u-t-s.de/) 
that makes the guts of lots of MSF / DCF77 / WWVB / JJY wall clocks. This new 
WWVB-PSK version is quite a bit more complex than the traditional WWVB-AM 
version. Two orthogonal antenna tilted at 45 degrees is one clue; a few more 
CoB (chip on board) is another. It has two steppers; one for hours/minutes and 
one for seconds. Also the usual optical feedback sensor for alignment of gears 
& hands. It uses one or two C-cells and also has an "ECO-mode" switch. Given 
that most WWVB receivers use AA or AAA or even tiny watch-batteries, the need 
for two large C-cells and an optional ECO mode suggests maybe there's a power 
issue.

User manual: 
http://www.lacrossetechnology.com/media/catalog/product/4/0/404-1235ua-ss_1.pdf


3)
I'll upload the tear down photos to: http://leapsecond.com/pages/ultratomic/

Note also these WWVB/PSK clocks are among the first WWVB clocks I have that 
handle a positive leap second correctly. During the most recent leap second 
(2016-12-31) they paused at :59 for an extra second. See the IMG_3126 video in 
the above directory. The audio track is a Heathkit WWV s/w receiver.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Don Murray via time-nuts]

I have had a Stauer Titanium Atomic wristwatch for 6 years.
 
Never had a problem.  Never have had to set it.  Still on
the original battery.  Automatic DST.  Analog dial
for hours and minutes...  digital display for seconds and
month/date.
 
It is always in step with WWV...  ;-)
 
73
Don
W4WJ
 
 
 
In a message dated 4/4/2017 9:01:45 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  
tsho...@gmail.com writes:

I have  been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display  UTC.

They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each  morning
when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the  (non-PSK)
WWVB wall clocks.

The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD  watch for $28 that lasts a couple
years. The face scuffs easily and the  band only lasts a little more than a
year before needing  replacement.

I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio  WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year
ago and am very happy. Analog display for  local time, and the LCD display
can show UTC. About $90.

Tim  N3QE
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[paul swed]

Really can't say that its c-max or not. Since if you try to download
anything from the sight the links are dead. But I do believe its the true
wwvb bpsk decoder. If it is the cme 8000 that chip works impressively well
even in New England.
But this is the first time I have stumbled across anything that used it if
I am guessing correctly. Heck I seem to remember it was supposed to be out
some 2-3 years ago around Christmas.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:04 PM, Tim Shoppa  wrote:

> I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC.
>
> They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning
> when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK)
> WWVB wall clocks.
>
> The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple
> years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a
> year before needing replacement.
>
> I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year
> ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display
> can show UTC. About $90.
>
> Tim N3QE
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Tim Shoppa]

I have been happy with the Casio Waveceptor watches. They can display UTC.

They seem to reliably set themselves between midnight and 3AM each morning
when I'm wearing them here in Maryland, more reliably than the (non-PSK)
WWVB wall clocks.

The Casio WV58A-1AVCR is a plastic LCD watch for $28 that lasts a couple
years. The face scuffs easily and the band only lasts a little more than a
year before needing replacement.

I upgraded to the Metal-body-metal-band Casio WVA-M640D-1ACR almost a year
ago and am very happy. Analog display for local time, and the LCD display
can show UTC. About $90.

Tim N3QE
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Richard (Rick) Karlquist]

On 4/4/2017 3:19 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that
does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to
any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage
area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:)

Bob



This feature is mainly so you can set the time zone for GMT/UTC.
Hopefully, there is a way to turn off daylight savings time as well.
Many previous atomic clocks covered only the time zones near Boulder
and could not display UTC.

Rick N6RK
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message 
, paul swed writes:

>I suspect if there is one of these some other vendors and even perhaps La
>Crosse may have other models at a lower cost. Will not comment on the
>technical quality of these products.

They're probably based around one of C-max chips:

http://www.c-max-time.com/products/showProduct.php?id=17

(This is the old Temic technology that has wandered all over the place...)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
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Re: [time-nuts] The ultraAtomic clock for home

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Based on their web site, the model you saw is the one and only version that
does the new modulation. One very useful feature is the ability to set it to 
any time zone world wide. I guess I missed the note on the WWVB coverage
area expanding to cover the entire planet …..:)

Bob

> On Apr 4, 2017, at 4:54 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> I was in a walmart the other day and noticed that there were numbers of
> atomic clocks. Thought the fad had died off due to lots of reasons.
> 
> I was curious did those magical supa-dupa atomic clocks that screwed the
> old phase tracking receivers ever arrive? Son of a gun they did. I must
> have missed the 6 pm news story on this technology. Pretty sure we all did.
> 
> Anyhow humor aside at least one clock from La Crosse does exist.
> 404-1235ua for $79. Seems steep but then again these clocks do use the
> phase code and do not care about the orientation. They have 2 antennas at
> 90 degrees and they select the best signal.
> I suspect if there is one of these some other vendors and even perhaps La
> Crosse may have other models at a lower cost. Will not comment on the
> technical quality of these products.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
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