Re: [time-nuts] newcomer
Hi Stephanie, Welcome to the list! We designed a 1GHz crystal LO for PLLs (the ULN-1G) using an off the shelf miniature 500MHz crystal oscillator which is run at 3 rd overtone internally then using a diode doubler and a steep bandpass filter using several Mini Circuits ceramic filters and a 20dBm amp. Works like a charm and has phase noise very close to theoretical.. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Sep 15, 2014, at 5:50, steph.rey steph@wanadoo.fr wrote: Hi the list, Just wanted to introduce myself for my 1st message. I'm Stephane, 40, living in France, at the moment working in RF electronics for a particles accelerator lab. I'm hamradio as well, and I do enjoy especially weak and accurate signals. I'm desiging various RF circuits. Current design is a universal PLL able to operate from 0.5 to 6 GHz depending on the VCO and supposed to be low-jitter (1ps) regarding the application. I'm also starting a new design of low noise PLL and there will be probably a lot of question arising... I'm starting with the 1 GHz LO made upon a 100 MHz VCXO + multipliers/filters/MMICs. I want to focus deeper on low phase noise/jitter, synchronization and low-noise PLL techniques. I believe this is a good place for most of these topics. Cheers Stephane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] newcomer
Hello Said, Thanks for the answer. Sounds interresting. Do you have a description of that ? Especially a phase noise plot ? As said, I'm planning to use a VCXO (low cost and low noise) at 100 MHz followed by a MMIC (ERA) and a 500 MHz 3-cells helical filter from Temwell. Then a doubler from minicircuit, an other MMIC and a 3-cell helical filter at 1 GHz... Cheers Stephane On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 09:17:01 -0700, Said Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Stephanie, Welcome to the list! We designed a 1GHz crystal LO for PLLs (the ULN-1G) using an off the shelf miniature 500MHz crystal oscillator which is run at 3 rd overtone internally then using a diode doubler and a steep bandpass filter using several Mini Circuits ceramic filters and a 20dBm amp. Works like a charm and has phase noise very close to theoretical.. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Sep 15, 2014, at 5:50, steph.rey steph@wanadoo.fr wrote: Hi the list, Just wanted to introduce myself for my 1st message. I'm Stephane, 40, living in France, at the moment working in RF electronics for a particles accelerator lab. I'm hamradio as well, and I do enjoy especially weak and accurate signals. I'm desiging various RF circuits. Current design is a universal PLL able to operate from 0.5 to 6 GHz depending on the VCO and supposed to be low-jitter (1ps) regarding the application. I'm also starting a new design of low noise PLL and there will be probably a lot of question arising... I'm starting with the 1 GHz LO made upon a 100 MHz VCXO + multipliers/filters/MMICs. I want to focus deeper on low phase noise/jitter, synchronization and low-noise PLL techniques. I believe this is a good place for most of these topics. Cheers Stephane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] newcomer
Hi, It sounds like all my messages need moderator approbation. Is it the rule on the list or a technical problem at my side ? Cheers Stephane On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 09:17:01 -0700, Said Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Stephanie, Welcome to the list! We designed a 1GHz crystal LO for PLLs (the ULN-1G) using an off the shelf miniature 500MHz crystal oscillator which is run at 3 rd overtone internally then using a diode doubler and a steep bandpass filter using several Mini Circuits ceramic filters and a 20dBm amp. Works like a charm and has phase noise very close to theoretical.. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Sep 15, 2014, at 5:50, steph.rey steph@wanadoo.fr wrote: Hi the list, Just wanted to introduce myself for my 1st message. I'm Stephane, 40, living in France, at the moment working in RF electronics for a particles accelerator lab. I'm hamradio as well, and I do enjoy especially weak and accurate signals. I'm desiging various RF circuits. Current design is a universal PLL able to operate from 0.5 to 6 GHz depending on the VCO and supposed to be low-jitter (1ps) regarding the application. I'm also starting a new design of low noise PLL and there will be probably a lot of question arising... I'm starting with the 1 GHz LO made upon a 100 MHz VCXO + multipliers/filters/MMICs. I want to focus deeper on low phase noise/jitter, synchronization and low-noise PLL techniques. I believe this is a good place for most of these topics. Cheers Stephane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] newcomer
Hi Stephanie, I have a similar issue, I can never tell if my messages post or not, some I get back instantly others never show up in my inbox. I think the mail server was just updated.. To answer your questions: 1) attached is the PN plot of the 1.0GHz version. 2) Here is a datasheet for the part: http://www.jackson-labs.com/index.php/products/uln_1g The tricky part in your proposed setup will be getting a 100MHz crystal with low enough phase noise so that the 20log(N/M) added phase noise won't be a problem - +20dB added after all. On our part some of the tricky design issues were size and power as well as the high output power of +22dBm, and a requirement to maintain the output power to within 0.5dB over the entire -40C to +85C temperature range. bye, Said In a message dated 9/15/2014 09:40:37 Pacific Daylight Time, steph@wanadoo.fr writes: Hi, It sounds like all my messages need moderator approbation. Is it the rule on the list or a technical problem at my side ? Cheers Stephane On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 09:17:01 -0700, Said Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Stephanie, Welcome to the list! We designed a 1GHz crystal LO for PLLs (the ULN-1G) using an off the shelf miniature 500MHz crystal oscillator which is run at 3 rd overtone internally then using a diode doubler and a steep bandpass filter using several Mini Circuits ceramic filters and a 20dBm amp. Works like a charm and has phase noise very close to theoretical.. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Sep 15, 2014, at 5:50, steph.rey steph@wanadoo.fr wrote: Hi the list, Just wanted to introduce myself for my 1st message. I'm Stephane, 40, living in France, at the moment working in RF electronics for a particles accelerator lab. I'm hamradio as well, and I do enjoy especially weak and accurate signals. I'm desiging various RF circuits. Current design is a universal PLL able to operate from 0.5 to 6 GHz depending on the VCO and supposed to be low-jitter (1ps) regarding the application. I'm also starting a new design of low noise PLL and there will be probably a lot of question arising... I'm starting with the 1 GHz LO made upon a 100 MHz VCXO + multipliers/filters/MMICs. I want to focus deeper on low phase noise/jitter, synchronization and low-noise PLL techniques. I believe this is a good place for most of these topics. Cheers Stephane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. 1006030 BUT AT 1GHZ.png Description: Binary data ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] newcomer
Hi Stephane, Welcome. There's nothing wrong on your end. Thanks for asking. Subscription to this list is open to all without approval. Since about a year or two ago postings from new subscribers are moderated. Any technically rich, on-topic posting goes through. /tvb (i5s) On Sep 15, 2014, at 9:40 AM, steph.rey steph@wanadoo.fr wrote: Hi, It sounds like all my messages need moderator approbation. Is it the rule on the list or a technical problem at my side ? Cheers Stephane On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 09:17:01 -0700, Said Jackson via time-nuts time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Stephanie, Welcome to the list! We designed a 1GHz crystal LO for PLLs (the ULN-1G) using an off the shelf miniature 500MHz crystal oscillator which is run at 3 rd overtone internally then using a diode doubler and a steep bandpass filter using several Mini Circuits ceramic filters and a 20dBm amp. Works like a charm and has phase noise very close to theoretical.. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Sep 15, 2014, at 5:50, steph.rey steph@wanadoo.fr wrote: Hi the list, Just wanted to introduce myself for my 1st message. I'm Stephane, 40, living in France, at the moment working in RF electronics for a particles accelerator lab. I'm hamradio as well, and I do enjoy especially weak and accurate signals. I'm desiging various RF circuits. Current design is a universal PLL able to operate from 0.5 to 6 GHz depending on the VCO and supposed to be low-jitter (1ps) regarding the application. I'm also starting a new design of low noise PLL and there will be probably a lot of question arising... I'm starting with the 1 GHz LO made upon a 100 MHz VCXO + multipliers/filters/MMICs. I want to focus deeper on low phase noise/jitter, synchronization and low-noise PLL techniques. I believe this is a good place for most of these topics. Cheers Stephane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] newcomer
Thanks for the details. This miniaturized device is nice. There is no information regarding stability. Anything there ? What's the technology inside ? crystal, TCXO ? What is the approx price for a such device ? The VCXO I was targetting is this one : http://www.abracon.com/Precisiontiming/ABLNO.pdf This should bring more or less the same level of PN once multiplied than your ULN_1G. However the frequency accuracy is poor and it needs to be disciplined in most applications. Cheers Stephane De : saidj...@aol.com [mailto:saidj...@aol.com] Envoyé : lundi 15 septembre 2014 18:51 À : steph@wanadoo.fr; time-nuts@febo.com Objet : Re: [time-nuts] newcomer Hi Stephanie, I have a similar issue, I can never tell if my messages post or not, some I get back instantly others never show up in my inbox. I think the mail server was just updated.. To answer your questions: 1) attached is the PN plot of the 1.0GHz version. 2) Here is a datasheet for the part: http://www.jackson-labs.com/index.php/products/uln_1g The tricky part in your proposed setup will be getting a 100MHz crystal with low enough phase noise so that the 20log(N/M) added phase noise won't be a problem - +20dB added after all. On our part some of the tricky design issues were size and power as well as the high output power of +22dBm, and a requirement to maintain the output power to within 0.5dB over the entire -40C to +85C temperature range. bye, Said In a message dated 9/15/2014 09:40:37 Pacific Daylight Time, mailto:steph@wanadoo.fr steph@wanadoo.fr writes: Hi, It sounds like all my messages need moderator approbation. Is it the rule on the list or a technical problem at my side ? Cheers Stephane On Mon, 15 Sep 2014 09:17:01 -0700, Said Jackson via time-nuts mailto:time-nuts@febo.com time-nuts@febo.com wrote: Hi Stephanie, Welcome to the list! We designed a 1GHz crystal LO for PLLs (the ULN-1G) using an off the shelf miniature 500MHz crystal oscillator which is run at 3 rd overtone internally then using a diode doubler and a steep bandpass filter using several Mini Circuits ceramic filters and a 20dBm amp. Works like a charm and has phase noise very close to theoretical.. Bye, Said Sent From iPhone On Sep 15, 2014, at 5:50, steph.rey mailto:steph@wanadoo.fr steph@wanadoo.fr wrote: Hi the list, Just wanted to introduce myself for my 1st message. I'm Stephane, 40, living in France, at the moment working in RF electronics for a particles accelerator lab. I'm hamradio as well, and I do enjoy especially weak and accurate signals. I'm desiging various RF circuits. Current design is a universal PLL able to operate from 0.5 to 6 GHz depending on the VCO and supposed to be low-jitter (1ps) regarding the application. I'm also starting a new design of low noise PLL and there will be probably a lot of question arising... I'm starting with the 1 GHz LO made upon a 100 MHz VCXO + multipliers/filters/MMICs. I want to focus deeper on low phase noise/jitter, synchronization and low-noise PLL techniques. I believe this is a good place for most of these topics. Cheers Stephane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- mailto:time-nuts@febo.com time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- mailto:time-nuts@febo.com time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- Ce courrier électronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malveillant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] newcomer
Hi Stephane, our customer just needed +/-50KHz free-running over all conditions including aging, so stability was not of major concern, and the unit easily performs significantly better than that. We did make a VCO version for PLL disciplining so you can lock it to a GPSDO or in a correlated phase noise test system etc. The stability is thus not really good, but sufficient for Radar applications. The technology is a Crystal oscillator multiplied by 5x internally I think (maybe it was 3x, can't remember), then by 2x externally. Since it is a MilSpec compliant part it is not that low-cost, but it is lower-cost and much higher-performance than the legacy part it replaces. More than $1K for sure though. It also has some additional tricks up its sleeve such as a built-in DC-DC switcher and power supply filter allowing operation from +6V to +15V without affecting output power, and allowing noisy external power supplies to be used, and harmonics lower than -32dBc typically by using the steep ceramic low-pass filters. That Abracom part looks pretty nice too, and your approach should work well too if you can get the 5x multiplier working well. Get a good 10MHz OCXO and use an AD PLL chip such as ADF4002 etc to lock that Abracom part with a pretty small loop BW (100Hz), and you will have the best of both worlds. Bye, Said In a message dated 9/15/2014 16:52:18 Pacific Daylight Time, steph@wanadoo.fr writes: Thanks for the details. This miniaturized device is nice. There is no information regarding stability. Anything there ? What's the technology inside ? crystal, TCXO ? What is the approx price for a such device ? The VCXO I was targetting is this one : http://www.abracon.com/Precisiontiming/ABLNO.pdf This should bring more or less the same level of PN once multiplied than your ULN_1G. However the frequency accuracy is poor and it needs to be disciplined in most applications. Cheers Stephane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
Re: [time-nuts] newcomer
Thanks for your feedback. This is indeed a bit expensive for that application. The x5 multiplier is indeed just the harmonic 5 capture with the helical filter. I'll let you know the outcome. This probably won't beat any expensive ULN source but might be a good starting point for low cost. Worth to try Stephane -Message d'origine- De : time-nuts [mailto:time-nuts-boun...@febo.com] De la part de S. Jackson via time-nuts Envoyé : mardi 16 septembre 2014 02:11 À : time-nuts@febo.com Objet : Re: [time-nuts] newcomer Hi Stephane, our customer just needed +/-50KHz free-running over all conditions including aging, so stability was not of major concern, and the unit easily performs significantly better than that. We did make a VCO version for PLL disciplining so you can lock it to a GPSDO or in a correlated phase noise test system etc. The stability is thus not really good, but sufficient for Radar applications. The technology is a Crystal oscillator multiplied by 5x internally I think (maybe it was 3x, can't remember), then by 2x externally. Since it is a MilSpec compliant part it is not that low-cost, but it is lower-cost and much higher-performance than the legacy part it replaces. More than $1K for sure though. It also has some additional tricks up its sleeve such as a built-in DC-DC switcher and power supply filter allowing operation from +6V to +15V without affecting output power, and allowing noisy external power supplies to be used, and harmonics lower than -32dBc typically by using the steep ceramic low-pass filters. That Abracom part looks pretty nice too, and your approach should work well too if you can get the 5x multiplier working well. Get a good 10MHz OCXO and use an AD PLL chip such as ADF4002 etc to lock that Abracom part with a pretty small loop BW (100Hz), and you will have the best of both worlds. Bye, Said In a message dated 9/15/2014 16:52:18 Pacific Daylight Time, steph@wanadoo.fr writes: Thanks for the details. This miniaturized device is nice. There is no information regarding stability. Anything there ? What's the technology inside ? crystal, TCXO ? What is the approx price for a such device ? The VCXO I was targetting is this one : http://www.abracon.com/Precisiontiming/ABLNO.pdf This should bring more or less the same level of PN once multiplied than your ULN_1G. However the frequency accuracy is poor and it needs to be disciplined in most applications. Cheers Stephane ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there. --- Ce courrier électronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malveillant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active. http://www.avast.com ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@febo.com To unsubscribe, go to https://www.febo.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts and follow the instructions there.
