[time-nuts] NIST NTP servers way off for anyone else?

[Adam Space]

I'm not sure if anyone else uses the NIST's NTP servers, but I've noticed
that the offsets I'm getting from Gaithersburg servers seem to be
really far off, like 40-50 ms off. This is pretty odd since they usually
have a 2 - 3 ms accuracy at worst.

It is interesting to think about what is going on here. NIST has a secondary
time scale

at Gaithersburg, maintained by a couple of caesium clocks that are
typically kept within 20ns of UTC(NIST), i.e. their primary time scale in
Boulder. They also host their remote time transfer calibration service and
their Internet Time Service (i.e. NTP servers) out of Gaithersburg.

It seems highly unlikely that their time scale there is that far off. One
thing that immediately comes to mind is asymmetric network delays causing
this. I do think this has to be the reason for the large discrepancy, but
even so, it is an impressive feat of asymmetric path delays. The maximum
error in offset from a client to server due to asymmetric network delays is
one half of the delay. (This corresponds to one path being instantaneous
and the other path taking the entire delay time). When I query their
servers, I am getting about a 45ms offset, and a delay of around 100ms.
This would mean the maximum error due to asymmetric path delays is around
50ms--and less even if we're being realistic (one of the delays can't
literally be zero). Basically, for the offset error to be accounted for
primarily by asymmetric network delays, the delays would have to be *very*
asymmetric.

Is anyone else experiencing the same thing?
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[time-nuts] NIST Technical Note 2187 - A Resilient Architecture for the Realization and Distribution of Coordinated Universal Time to Critical Infrastructure Systems in the United States

[Magnus Danielson via time-nuts]

Fellow time-nuts,

NIST just published the technical note 2187 that probably some of you 
might find interesting. It's for free download here:


https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/TechnicalNotes/NIST.TN.2187.pdf

I think you will find quite a bit of interesting material in there. Just 
recall, the fine-print says that mention of vendors and solutions is for 
technical completeness and not is any form of endorsement, other vendors 
and products exists that may be just as good or even better.


This is part of a larger context, but I think you will find a lot of 
interesting things in there.


Cheers,
Magnus
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[time-nuts] NIST trivia

[ew via time-nuts]

As time nuts we all know about NIST Time and Frequency work. NIST is involved 
in the investigation of what happened in the tragic collapse of a High Rise in 
Miami Surf Side.                                                                
                  Bert Kehren

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[John Sloan]

Here is a write up from when I attended the NIST Time & Frequency Seminar
last year (2018). Coincidentally, I had just had a tour of the NIST T
facilities a month or two before as part of another event. In the
spirit of full disclosure: I’m an embedded software developer who
routinely deals with precision frequency references (e.g. when I wrote
firmware for ATM products) and geolocation (for many different
applications). I like to say “I’m not a hardware engineer, but I keep
a hardware engineer on speed dial”. I got a lot out of the seminar,
but a EE specializing in T would likely get even more.

https://coverclock.blogspot.com/2018/06/wibbley-wobbley-timey-wimey.html

:John Sloan



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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[Attila Kinali]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2019 23:06:36 -0800
"Tom Van Baak"  wrote:

> > Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?
> 
> Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day professional 
> conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to factor in Denver flights 
> and Boulder hotels. But when you consider where it's held and who's speaking 
> and how long it lasts, it starts to look like something between a bargain and 
> a worthy bucket list item. NIST takes T seriously; this is not some sort of 
> cheap corporate or product marketing show.

I concur! I have not done the NIST T seminar, but the EFTS[1] and it
was well worth the money. I learned more about time and frequency 
in that week alone than in the many years before, reading books and papers.

If you do not want to spend that amount of money and you cannot get
the student discount (for the EFTS, _any_ student ID is enough, no
matter what kind), The turorials before IFCS and EFTF are usually
condensed versions of the same or similar presentations by the very
same people.

BTW: If a time-nut goes to the NIST T seminar, I'd be interested
in the handouts. (Unfortunately, I don't have the time to go myself)


Attila Kinali

[1] http://efts.eu/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=current:03_registration
-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neal Stephenson

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Over the course of decades, we sent a lot of people to this workshop. It was 
typical to 
have a new engineer head out to it after a year or so on the job. I don’t 
remember any of 
them coming back saying that they had found it all way past their ability to 
comprehend. 
Compared to doing the same sort of training in-house, the NIST workshop is dirt 
cheap ….

Indeed *some* of what was presented each year was a challenge. I would be very 
surprised
if that was not the case. NIST is targeting a wide range of people and thus 
presents a lot of 
information as part of the workshop. Some of it (inevitably) will be targeted 
in an area that 
is not your primary focus. 

Bob

> On Feb 18, 2019, at 8:39 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm actually debating on whether to attend this or not.   I really
> need to understand a lot of the things related to time and Frequency
> better, and it looks like this covers pretty much all of the bases.
> The price, although high, isn't out of the range of expectations for
> this type of workshop.
> 
> For those who have attended in the past, I'd appreciate it if someone
> could characterize how much underlying time and frequency knowledge is
> needed to be able to at least follow along.  Based on Tom's
> description and the topic titles in the agenda, I suspect that I'll be
> better than ok, but it is $1900 and I'd really hate to show up and
> find out that I'm lost 30 seconds into the first session on the first
> day.
> 
> 
> On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 12:09 AM Tom Van Baak  wrote:
>> 
 https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
>>> 
>>> Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?
>> 
>> Hi Bill,
>> 
>> Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day professional 
>> conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to factor in Denver 
>> flights and Boulder hotels. But when you consider where it's held and who's 
>> speaking and how long it lasts, it starts to look like something between a 
>> bargain and a worthy bucket list item. NIST takes T seriously; this is not 
>> some sort of cheap corporate or product marketing show.
>> 
>> Look over the agenda and note both the wide range of topics covered and the 
>> personnel doing so. The sessions tend to be very high quality. A portion of 
>> attendees are the kind sent by their companies to "learn about time & 
>> frequency" this week, so as a practicing time nut you are well above that. 
>> On the other hand, NIST keeps the conference current and practical and 
>> detailed so even the most seasoned time nut will learn a great deal. You may 
>> also meet lifelong contacts. I have attended and highly recommend it.
>> 
>> If it's just registration price that keeps an energetic curious time nut 
>> from attending let me know. In years past I've recommended NIST allow a 
>> limited time nut discount and that's worked. Let me know off-list if this is 
>> something you'd like to be considered for.
>> 
>> /tvb
>> 
>> 
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>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> - Forrest
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I'm actually debating on whether to attend this or not.   I really
need to understand a lot of the things related to time and Frequency
better, and it looks like this covers pretty much all of the bases.
The price, although high, isn't out of the range of expectations for
this type of workshop.

For those who have attended in the past, I'd appreciate it if someone
could characterize how much underlying time and frequency knowledge is
needed to be able to at least follow along.  Based on Tom's
description and the topic titles in the agenda, I suspect that I'll be
better than ok, but it is $1900 and I'd really hate to show up and
find out that I'm lost 30 seconds into the first session on the first
day.


On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 12:09 AM Tom Van Baak  wrote:
>
> >> https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
> >
> > Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day professional 
> conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to factor in Denver flights 
> and Boulder hotels. But when you consider where it's held and who's speaking 
> and how long it lasts, it starts to look like something between a bargain and 
> a worthy bucket list item. NIST takes T seriously; this is not some sort of 
> cheap corporate or product marketing show.
>
> Look over the agenda and note both the wide range of topics covered and the 
> personnel doing so. The sessions tend to be very high quality. A portion of 
> attendees are the kind sent by their companies to "learn about time & 
> frequency" this week, so as a practicing time nut you are well above that. On 
> the other hand, NIST keeps the conference current and practical and detailed 
> so even the most seasoned time nut will learn a great deal. You may also meet 
> lifelong contacts. I have attended and highly recommend it.
>
> If it's just registration price that keeps an energetic curious time nut from 
> attending let me know. In years past I've recommended NIST allow a limited 
> time nut discount and that's worked. Let me know off-list if this is 
> something you'd like to be considered for.
>
> /tvb
>
>
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> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.



-- 
- Forrest

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 2019-02-16 18:06, jimlux wrote:

On 2/15/19 11:06 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar 



Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?


Hi Bill,

Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day 
professional conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to 
factor in Denver flights and Boulder hotels. But when you consider 
where it's held and who's speaking and how long it lasts, it starts 
to look like something between a bargain and a worthy bucket list 
item. NIST takes T seriously; this is not some sort of cheap 
corporate or product marketing show.


Hotels in Boulder aren't that expensive, compared to other places. 
Govt per diem is $159/lodging, Meals & Incidentals $66. The 
implication is that you'll find plenty of places where hotel is 
<=$159/night (Compare Boston for IMS at $273  + $71 and let's not even 
get started on Silicon Valley hotel costs)


 Denver is a big hub airport so you can get there non-stop from lots 
of places.


Particularly if you're going to it as part of "work", the cost is 
quite reasonable in the context of your salary - which is how 
conference organizers look at it.  When I was on the organizing 
committee for a conference last year, we struggled with the whole 
"what should it cost" thing. Obviously, you'd like it as cheap as 
possible, but there are significant costs associated with putting on a 
conference.


Since NIST is US Government, there's probably GSA rules about how much 
they have to charge for the use of the resources.


I took the Green Ride Boulder shuttle service to the airport last time I 
was there in January. That is also a way to save money compared to 
renting car.


I was staying at Best Western Boulder, which is from walking distance 
from NIST office.


I really enjoyed the NIST Time and Frequency Seminar, and it helped me 
with connections to this day with the serious and good folks at NIST T 
and related.


Cheers,
Magnus


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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[Dave Daniel]

If you are interested in checking out Boulder while you are there, two hotels 
to look at are the Boulderado at 13th and Spruce, and the Broker Inn, which is 
now apparently owned by Rodeway, on 30th St.

Staying at the Boulderado affords close access to the Pearl St. Mall, an old 
open-air mall (not like the new ones springing up everywhere) with lots of 
restaurants with outdoor seating, other strange shops and various performers 
(if you do go there and see a guy named Bongo tying balloons for children, 
please tell him Dave Daniel said “hi”; I believe he was a physicist in a former 
life)

I’ve stayed in both hotels, many times (StorageTek used to put employees up in 
the Broker).

I have no idea what the rates are these days, but one can look them up online. 
They are probably more expensive than your run-of-the-mill Holiday Inn, but if 
the difference is not that great, it would be worth staying at one of them.

There is also the historic Stanley hotel in Estes Park of “The Shining” fame 
(built by the famous Stanley brothers). Estes Park is a bit of a drive from 
Boulder (but not too bad) and Estes Park is a stone’s throw from Rocky Mountain 
National Park, another cool place to visit if one is considering things in 
addition to the NIST conference. When StorageTek used to send me to Colorado 
for business I used to always tack on a weekend at my expense to visit these 
sorts of places.

If I still lived there, I’d attend the conference in a heartbeat.

DaveD

Sent from a small flat thingy

> On Feb 16, 2019, at 12:06, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 2/15/19 11:06 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:
 https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
>>> 
>>> Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?
>> Hi Bill,
>> Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day professional 
>> conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to factor in Denver 
>> flights and Boulder hotels. But when you consider where it's held and who's 
>> speaking and how long it lasts, it starts to look like something between a 
>> bargain and a worthy bucket list item. NIST takes T seriously; this is not 
>> some sort of cheap corporate or product marketing show.
> 
> Hotels in Boulder aren't that expensive, compared to other places. Govt per 
> diem is $159/lodging, Meals & Incidentals $66. The implication is that you'll 
> find plenty of places where hotel is <=$159/night (Compare Boston for IMS at 
> $273  + $71 and let's not even get started on Silicon Valley hotel costs)
> 
> Denver is a big hub airport so you can get there non-stop from lots of places.
> 
> Particularly if you're going to it as part of "work", the cost is quite 
> reasonable in the context of your salary - which is how conference organizers 
> look at it.  When I was on the organizing committee for a conference last 
> year, we struggled with the whole "what should it cost" thing. Obviously, 
> you'd like it as cheap as possible, but there are significant costs 
> associated with putting on a conference.
> 
> Since NIST is US Government, there's probably GSA rules about how much they 
> have to charge for the use of the resources.
> 
> 
>> Look over the agenda and note both the wide range of topics covered and the 
>> personnel doing so. The sessions tend to be very high quality. A portion of 
>> attendees are the kind sent by their companies to "learn about time & 
>> frequency" this week, so as a practicing time nut you are well above that. 
>> On the other hand, NIST keeps the conference current and practical and 
>> detailed so even the most seasoned time nut will learn a great deal. You may 
>> also meet lifelong contacts. I have attended and highly recommend it.
>> If it's just registration price that keeps an energetic curious time nut 
>> from attending let me know. In years past I've recommended NIST allow a 
>> limited time nut discount and that's worked. Let me know off-list if this is 
>> something you'd like to be considered for.
>> /tvb
>> ___
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>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[jimlux]

On 2/15/19 11:06 PM, Tom Van Baak wrote:

https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar


Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?


Hi Bill,

Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day professional 
conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to factor in Denver flights and 
Boulder hotels. But when you consider where it's held and who's speaking and how 
long it lasts, it starts to look like something between a bargain and a worthy 
bucket list item. NIST takes T seriously; this is not some sort of cheap 
corporate or product marketing show.


Hotels in Boulder aren't that expensive, compared to other places. Govt 
per diem is $159/lodging, Meals & Incidentals $66. The implication is 
that you'll find plenty of places where hotel is <=$159/night (Compare 
Boston for IMS at $273  + $71 and let's not even get started on Silicon 
Valley hotel costs)


 Denver is a big hub airport so you can get there non-stop from lots of 
places.


Particularly if you're going to it as part of "work", the cost is quite 
reasonable in the context of your salary - which is how conference 
organizers look at it.  When I was on the organizing committee for a 
conference last year, we struggled with the whole "what should it cost" 
thing. Obviously, you'd like it as cheap as possible, but there are 
significant costs associated with putting on a conference.


Since NIST is US Government, there's probably GSA rules about how much 
they have to charge for the use of the resources.





Look over the agenda and note both the wide range of topics covered and the personnel doing 
so. The sessions tend to be very high quality. A portion of attendees are the kind sent by 
their companies to "learn about time & frequency" this week, so as a practicing 
time nut you are well above that. On the other hand, NIST keeps the conference current and 
practical and detailed so even the most seasoned time nut will learn a great deal. You may 
also meet lifelong contacts. I have attended and highly recommend it.

If it's just registration price that keeps an energetic curious time nut from 
attending let me know. In years past I've recommended NIST allow a limited time 
nut discount and that's worked. Let me know off-list if this is something you'd 
like to be considered for.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[Tom Van Baak]

>> https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
>
> Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?

Hi Bill,

Yes, it sounds high but perhaps not out of line for multi-day professional 
conferences / seminars these days. True, you have to factor in Denver flights 
and Boulder hotels. But when you consider where it's held and who's speaking 
and how long it lasts, it starts to look like something between a bargain and a 
worthy bucket list item. NIST takes T seriously; this is not some sort of 
cheap corporate or product marketing show.

Look over the agenda and note both the wide range of topics covered and the 
personnel doing so. The sessions tend to be very high quality. A portion of 
attendees are the kind sent by their companies to "learn about time & 
frequency" this week, so as a practicing time nut you are well above that. On 
the other hand, NIST keeps the conference current and practical and detailed so 
even the most seasoned time nut will learn a great deal. You may also meet 
lifelong contacts. I have attended and highly recommend it. 

If it's just registration price that keeps an energetic curious time nut from 
attending let me know. In years past I've recommended NIST allow a limited time 
nut discount and that's worked. Let me know off-list if this is something you'd 
like to be considered for.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[jimlux]

On 2/15/19 3:33 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:

Jim,
...
Please register by June 4, 2019 to ensure your spot at this event. The
registration fee is $1,900.

Thanks for the heads up.

Best Regards,
John W.



It *is* a bit pricey -  - I didn't see if there's a time-nuts promo 
code.


IEEE IMS is about the same this year ($1130 if you preregister, and 
given that IEEE membership is about $200, you'd be insane to pay the 
non-member registration for IMS of $1700)..  However IMS is a much 
bigger deal - it's also the week before this, if you're looking to keep 
busy in June..


The weather in Boulder will be better than the weather in Boston.




On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 3:00 PM jimlux  wrote:



https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[William H. Fite]

Mother of God, John, what makes this meeting worth the price?


On Friday, February 15, 2019, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Jim,
> ...
> Please register by June 4, 2019 to ensure your spot at this event. The
> registration fee is $1,900.
>
> Thanks for the heads up.
>
> Best Regards,
> John W.
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 3:00 PM jimlux  wrote:
>
> >
> > https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-
> nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Jim,
...
Please register by June 4, 2019 to ensure your spot at this event. The
registration fee is $1,900.

Thanks for the heads up.

Best Regards,
John W.


On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 3:00 PM jimlux  wrote:

>
> https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar
>
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[time-nuts] NIST time and frequency seminar - 11-14 June in Boulder, CO

[jimlux]

https://www.nist.gov/news-events/events/2019/06/2019-nist-time-and-frequency-seminar

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[time-nuts] NIST Time and Frequency Publication Database

[Magnus Danielson]

Fellow time-nuts,

I just wanted to remind you about the wonderful resource that the NIST
Time and Frequency Publication Database is. It's a good way to find lots
of good articles.

https://tf.nist.gov/general/publications.htm

Once you find an article, search on the writes names to find more good
stuff.

Today was the day when I accidentally found an article that I co-wrote.
Somewhat proud of that.

Interesting writers to search for is Allan, Weiss, Barnes, Howe, Walls,
Nelson, Hati, Gray and Stein should get you started.

"regenerative" is a good search there for regenerative dividers for
instance.

David Howe has written "Interpreting Oscillatory Frequency Stability
Plots" for instance, which may be of some interest for some here:
https://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1808.pdf
I just found it. Happy to find fellow Bill Riley, Francois Vernotte and
Charles Greenhall in the acknowledgement section.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob Bownes]

Mark,

That would be most useful and free folks from a few of the proprietary
satellite tracker programs. One could write a 'shim' to consume the output
from a tcp/udp (or serial) port and convert to the proper format for a
chosen polar or az/el rotor.

Bob


On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 2:00 PM Mark Sims  wrote:

> I recently added a feature to Lady Heather that can output the sun and
> moon positions to a port.  This was for use by solar trackers and moon
> bounce antennas.   It would be easy to modify that code to output the
> position of a satellite (or all satellites) if you wanted to keep an
> antenna pointed at a specific satellite.
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[time-nuts] NIST

[Mark Sims]

I recently added a feature to Lady Heather that can output the sun and moon 
positions to a port.  This was for use by solar trackers and moon bounce 
antennas.   It would be easy to modify that code to output the position of a 
satellite (or all satellites) if you wanted to keep an antenna pointed at a 
specific satellite.  
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Sep 1, 2018, at 3:06 AM, Magnus Danielson  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 08/31/2018 03:36 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> “Backbone timing” gets done by boxes buried deep in systems. Those systems 
>> take years
>> to design. The boxes that go in them similarly take years to get onto the 
>> market. Once designed
>> deployment is far from instantaneous. Operators are always pressed by cost 
>> constraints. Adding
>> anything beyond the minimums … not going to happen.
>> 
>> The result is that there are no systems out there that use WWVB or WWV other 
>> than wrist watches
>> and wall clock like devices. Utilities (cell phones, internet, finance ) run 
>> with something else. Converting
>> them to a secondary “something” is a many years sort of thing, even if it is 
>> technically feasible. 
>> 
>> You can pull a bunch of spare GPS sat’s out of storage and get them in orbit 
>> *way* quicker than you can 
>> rebuild every cell tower in the country. In fact, newer designs run their 
>> timing in a way that a GPS failure 
>> is not that big a deal. How long it’ll take before that sort of design is 
>> common in the US…. years and years …
>> 
>> If you are going to come up with a time source at the ~ 10 ns level, that’s 
>> not going to happen from WWVB
>> or WWV. They never were good enough to get to that level and it’s not on the 
>> transmit end. You would need
>> a very different system. It’s been a long time since any of these services 
>> (internet, finance, cell )  were in the 
>> millisecond or even the microsecond range. The modern stuff in all theses 
>> areas  is  < 100 ns. 
> 
> The actual requirements is usually on the 1-10 us level, but they are
> happy when they have the extra precision.

Well, they are and they aren’t. The newer systems (which rapidly become the 
only system) are at the one microsecond
level after being in holder for many hours ( days?). The assumption is that 
only one tower (or chunk) goes into holdover
at a time and the rest are still at least 10X better than that. Cut them all 
loose an the numbers would have to be tighter.

In order to get them all at the 100 ns level, you need a source that is around 
5 to 10X better than that. The timing source
is not the only source of error and you need to “train” your holdover clock 
with something that is mighty good. The
holdover spec often applies after a very short period of training (a day to 
several days). Indeed, if you put a Cs standard
in every cell tower and every internet node you probably could back off a bit 
on the 10X. With quartz or Rb, you need
the accuracy in training. 

Bob



> 
>> How long would it take to change all this? Well first some random Senior 
>> Member of the IEEE would 
>> have to start writing papers about the various issues. Various organizations 
>> in various countries would 
>> need to hold meeting after meeting after meeting talking things over. 
>> Somebody eventually would have
>> to come up with funds to actually try a few things. Maybe they work in the 
>> real world / maybe they don’t
>> work. 
>> 
>> Once you prove you have a system that can do “good enough", you would need 
>> laws / regulations passed to
>> make the “new thing” part of the required designs. You also need funding 
>> bills to deploy the “source” end 
>> of things and time to get that up and running. Once it’s running, you then 
>> give manufacturers some amount of time 
>> to get it in the field ….. and extensions when that doesn’t happen. Twenty 
>> years? Thirty years? Maybe longer? 
>> This stuff does not go very fast. 
> 
> It's been done for 10+ years now. Some 15+ countries have nation wide
> networks that makes them GPS independent for some applications.
> It has been a fun system to design and deploy.
> 
> Getting more precision isn't all that hard, it just takes more effort in
> the details and hence money and time. If people need 100 ns or 10 ns
> system time, it can be done.
> 
>> Best bet on what the “new thing” would be? Something like IEEE-1588 over 
>> fiber. It cuts out a bunch of this and 
>> that in terms of experiments and testing the basic system. We know most of 
>> *how* to do it already. It’s just a matter 
>> of a  billions of dollars in tax money to get the gaps filled in and then a 
>> few tens of billions in tax money to get
>> the backbone gear in place. Once that’s done you ramp up to the really 
>> expensive part of the deal ….Is it paid
>> for by your tax return in April or by a higher price on every cell call / 
>> transaction you make? … who knows … it’s 
>> a tax that you are paying either way. 
> 
> IEEE 1588 isn't working out at all for WAN, it's stuck in LAN
> environment, which is the dirty little secret of the industry. There is
> trials for dedicated wavelengths with using 1588 or it's extension White
> Rabbit that works great, but in any form of production environment it's
> a mess.
> 
> Network based precision timing takes a number of hurdles to handle. I've
> done my fair 

Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Gerhard Hoffmann]

Am 31.08.2018 um 20:17 schrieb Hal Murray:

att...@kinali.ch said:

I have somewhere a paper (which i cannot find currently, sorry) that used a
dish trained at one of the EGNOS satellites and used it as the only source
for timing. IIRC the results were promising, but not spectacular. The problem
being that all the ionospheric and tropospheric ...

There is another problem in that area.  How accurately is the location of the
satellite known?  published?

Geo-sync satellites actually wander around their nominal positions.  How much
does that effect timing?  I've seen figure-8 pictures of the pattern, but I
don't remember any data on elevation changes.


Geo-stat sats usually do their navigation via their linear transponders,
the rest is in some ground stations, so the added cost for flight hardware
is essentially nil.

The operators know the position of their sats quite precisely since,
for a phone sat as an example, the ground station transmission timing
must be aligned quite carefully to avoid both overlapping and idle time
of the channel. They switch both between cities and to give the phone
user the illusion of a continuous 2 way connection without too much delay.

The absolute position is less important as long as it is known.

Small countries like Luxembourg have just one geostationary parking lot
but operate several sats. They may have a more pronounced need to
keep the positions precise.

Overly precise position shortens the lifetime of a sat since it eats up 
fuel.


The navigation is simply made by PN streams say > 20 dB below the
MPEG data.

I have made the PN generators,  bit / frame generators /synchronizers,
correlators, de/modulators for some of them.

I don't think that the exact position data is published. It is a closed
system, after all.

But a bunch of hams with enough criminal energy could probably
measure it for themselves. The down link is already there in every
household with a SAT TV.  Oh, no, I do not promote that!

best regards,
Gerhard




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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi Hal,

On 08/31/2018 08:17 PM, Hal Murray wrote:
> 
> att...@kinali.ch said:
>> I have somewhere a paper (which i cannot find currently, sorry) that used a
>> dish trained at one of the EGNOS satellites and used it as the only source
>> for timing. IIRC the results were promising, but not spectacular. The problem
>> being that all the ionospheric and tropospheric ...
> 
> There is another problem in that area.  How accurately is the location of the 
> satellite known?  published?
> 
> Geo-sync satellites actually wander around their nominal positions.  How much 
> does that effect timing?  I've seen figure-8 pictures of the pattern, but I 
> don't remember any data on elevation changes.

The figure of 8 is just one of the artifacts of the elliptic orbit, and
it does cause distance changes and hence affect timing. Correct
ephimeris data is needed for good compensation. We do that for GPS
satellites too, which is part of the systems capability that the
receiver can do these compensations unaided with anything but the
signals from space segment.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Magnus Danielson]

On 08/31/2018 03:36 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
> 
>  “Backbone timing” gets done by boxes buried deep in systems. Those systems 
> take years
> to design. The boxes that go in them similarly take years to get onto the 
> market. Once designed
> deployment is far from instantaneous. Operators are always pressed by cost 
> constraints. Adding
> anything beyond the minimums … not going to happen.
> 
> The result is that there are no systems out there that use WWVB or WWV other 
> than wrist watches
> and wall clock like devices. Utilities (cell phones, internet, finance ) run 
> with something else. Converting
> them to a secondary “something” is a many years sort of thing, even if it is 
> technically feasible. 
> 
> You can pull a bunch of spare GPS sat’s out of storage and get them in orbit 
> *way* quicker than you can 
> rebuild every cell tower in the country. In fact, newer designs run their 
> timing in a way that a GPS failure 
> is not that big a deal. How long it’ll take before that sort of design is 
> common in the US…. years and years …
> 
> If you are going to come up with a time source at the ~ 10 ns level, that’s 
> not going to happen from WWVB
> or WWV. They never were good enough to get to that level and it’s not on the 
> transmit end. You would need
> a very different system. It’s been a long time since any of these services 
> (internet, finance, cell )  were in the 
> millisecond or even the microsecond range. The modern stuff in all theses 
> areas  is  < 100 ns. 

The actual requirements is usually on the 1-10 us level, but they are
happy when they have the extra precision.

> How long would it take to change all this? Well first some random Senior 
> Member of the IEEE would 
> have to start writing papers about the various issues. Various organizations 
> in various countries would 
> need to hold meeting after meeting after meeting talking things over. 
> Somebody eventually would have
> to come up with funds to actually try a few things. Maybe they work in the 
> real world / maybe they don’t
> work. 
> 
> Once you prove you have a system that can do “good enough", you would need 
> laws / regulations passed to
> make the “new thing” part of the required designs. You also need funding 
> bills to deploy the “source” end 
> of things and time to get that up and running. Once it’s running, you then 
> give manufacturers some amount of time 
> to get it in the field ….. and extensions when that doesn’t happen. Twenty 
> years? Thirty years? Maybe longer? 
> This stuff does not go very fast. 

It's been done for 10+ years now. Some 15+ countries have nation wide
networks that makes them GPS independent for some applications.
It has been a fun system to design and deploy.

Getting more precision isn't all that hard, it just takes more effort in
the details and hence money and time. If people need 100 ns or 10 ns
system time, it can be done.

> Best bet on what the “new thing” would be? Something like IEEE-1588 over 
> fiber. It cuts out a bunch of this and 
> that in terms of experiments and testing the basic system. We know most of 
> *how* to do it already. It’s just a matter 
> of a  billions of dollars in tax money to get the gaps filled in and then a 
> few tens of billions in tax money to get
> the backbone gear in place. Once that’s done you ramp up to the really 
> expensive part of the deal ….Is it paid
> for by your tax return in April or by a higher price on every cell call / 
> transaction you make? … who knows … it’s 
> a tax that you are paying either way. 

IEEE 1588 isn't working out at all for WAN, it's stuck in LAN
environment, which is the dirty little secret of the industry. There is
trials for dedicated wavelengths with using 1588 or it's extension White
Rabbit that works great, but in any form of production environment it's
a mess.

Network based precision timing takes a number of hurdles to handle. I've
done my fair bit of them.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 08/31/2018 12:18 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
> 
> In message <96e995c4-5ca2-af02-9738-0a6d87a9f...@pacific.net>, Brooke Clarke 
> writes:
> 
>> But it's extremely hard to make a jammer for WWVB (60 kHz) [...]
> 
> You can do it city-scale with a 18-wheeler sized loop-antenna
> and a good size diesel-generator.
> 
> However pedestrians will very likely note metalic items vibrating
> as they pass the "mystery white truck".
> 
> Sweden were much more serious about it:
> 
>   http://www.antus.org/RT02.html
> 
> Tl;drs:
> 
> They erected 9 200m tall Loran-C class antennas each driven by
> a Loran-C transmitter with an advanced degree which could jam
> Loran-C or Chayka.
> 
> They even mounted decoy parabolas on the towers them to hide their
> true purpose.
> 
> The fact that all the transmitters were on the east coast does drop
> a hint that swedens much touted neutrality had a bit of a slant.
> 

The "On" switch of the network where in the air defenece bunker. It was
only marked with "På" (Swedish for On) with no further markings. It was
designed for when the soviet bombers comes, at least they should loose
their Chayka guidance.

I knew one of the folks that where boss over the system, was to his
funeral recently. He also worked hard to get the classified material and
make a public report out of it. Time to refresh your swedish, as I doubt
any translations exist in public.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Magnus Danielson]

On 08/30/2018 11:20 PM, Brooke Clarke wrote:
> Hi Bob:
> 
> I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to
> wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency goes down as the size of
> the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
> So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4
> wavelength is a few inches, something that  you can hold in your hand.
> It's harder to make a WWV jammer (.5, 5, 10, 15, 20 MHz) since a 1/4
> wavelength in in the range of  500 to 12 feet, something that can be
> mounted on a vehicle for the higher frequencies.
> But it's extremely hard to make a jammer for WWVB (60 kHz) where a
> 1/4wavelength is over 4,000 feet.  This means an antenna that can be
> vehicle mounted will be very inefficient. Note this also means that it's
> extremely hard to make a Loran-C jammer.  Note that the WWVB and LORAN-C
> transmitters run very high power and the antennas are massive.

Locally you can transmit with a much smaller antenna. It's been shown
and works.

Sweden used to have a network of 212 m towers to jam and spoof
Loran-C/Chayka. It was a top secret network.

> This also means that if someone makes a WWVB simulator for their house
> the signal at the next door neighbor's house is probably going to be too
> small to effect their clocks.

Magnetic loop works, non-resonant suffice. Magnetic lopp is used for
hearing aid, and it doesn't take much. Enough for the house. Not getting
you very far though.

> PS. Some decades ago I maintained a beacon transmitter "LAH" on 175 kHz
> where the rules for unlicensed operation limited the input power to 1
> Watt and total antenna length to 50 feet.  Under these conditions the
> effective radiated power might be 2 milliwatts, orders of magnitude less
> if a portable system.
> http://www.auroralchorus.com/pli/1750meter_antennas.pdf
> 

The 137 kHz band for radio amateurs is limited, but with radiated power,
and getting up to that power is a great success and considering the band
and that one use CW it should be fun.

Cheers,
Magnus

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Hal Murray]

pla...@gmail.com said:
> Which satellites?  Most are here:  https://celestrak.com  Tracking programs
> are abundant. 

I was thinking of geo-sync, but if position info is widely available then I 
guess I should be interested in any satellites that provide good time.  (maybe 
an are likely to continue providing good time after some nasty event)


-- 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Hal Murray]

Thanks.

> perigee height:   35772 km
> apogee height:35800 km

If I did the math right, that's 89 microseconds.


-- 
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[time-nuts] NIST

[Mark Sims]

A GPS receiver that supports SBAS, etc will tell you where the sats are.   Some 
only report to 1 degree,  others 0.1 to 0.01 degrees resolution.  The beam with 
of a small dish at GPS freqs is not all that narrow.

Using orbital elements or processing the GNSS ephemeris message will give you a 
result with quite a bit better resolution.

-
>  There is another problem in that area.  How accurately is the location of 
> the 
satellite known?  published?
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[jimlux]

On 8/31/18 11:17 AM, Hal Murray wrote:


att...@kinali.ch said:

I have somewhere a paper (which i cannot find currently, sorry) that used a
dish trained at one of the EGNOS satellites and used it as the only source
for timing. IIRC the results were promising, but not spectacular. The problem
being that all the ionospheric and tropospheric ...


There is another problem in that area.  How accurately is the location of the
satellite known?  published?

Geo-sync satellites actually wander around their nominal positions.  How much
does that effect timing?  I've seen figure-8 pictures of the pattern, but I
don't remember any data on elevation changes.



Their orbital elements are published and updated periodically - download 
them off spacetrack or other sources.


Here's an example

The orbit data is extracted from the following two-line orbital elements,

1 43228U 18023A   18243.14094620 -.0224  0-0  0+0 0  9995
2 43228   0.0377  58.1839 0003405  72.7364 229.1178  1.00272082  1950
Epoch (UTC):31 August 2018 03:22:57
Eccentricity:   0.0003405
inclination:0.0377°
perigee height: 35772 km
apogee height:  35800 km
right ascension of ascending node:  58.1839°
argument of perigee:72.7364°
revolutions per day:1.00272082
mean anomaly at epoch:  229.1178°
orbit number at epoch:  195














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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Hal Murray]

att...@kinali.ch said:
> I have somewhere a paper (which i cannot find currently, sorry) that used a
> dish trained at one of the EGNOS satellites and used it as the only source
> for timing. IIRC the results were promising, but not spectacular. The problem
> being that all the ionospheric and tropospheric ...

There is another problem in that area.  How accurately is the location of the 
satellite known?  published?

Geo-sync satellites actually wander around their nominal positions.  How much 
does that effect timing?  I've seen figure-8 pictures of the pattern, but I 
don't remember any data on elevation changes.





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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[jimlux]

On 8/31/18 10:31 AM, Brooke Clarke wrote:

Hi Azelio:

Thanks for the link.
It's interesting that their setup (a Ku band satellite TV antenna and a 
standard GPS timing antenna) worked as well as it did with reversed 
polarity.  Does anyone know of a source of reverse polarity GPS antennas 
and a GPS timing receiver that also processes WAAS signals?



you could wind your own helix - it's pretty non critical.
or just use linear pol, and take the 3dB hit. I'll bet the EGNOS + small 
dish has enough gain to make up for it. (but the gain of a dish that is 
a few lambda across isn't huge)




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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Azelio:

Thanks for the link.
It's interesting that their setup (a Ku band satellite TV antenna and a standard GPS timing antenna) worked as well as 
it did with reversed polarity.  Does anyone know of a source of reverse polarity GPS antennas and a GPS timing receiver 
that also processes WAAS signals?


--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
https://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how 
well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

 Original Message 

Maybe this one is equivalent?

On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 4:55 PM Attila Kinali  wrote:

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 18:54:17 -0700
Brooke Clarke  wrote:


I wonder if anyone has tried using a small parabolic dish, like used for Free 
To Air satellite TV and aimed it at a GPS
satellite track or at a WAAS geostationary satellite using a feed antenna with 
reverse polarization from a normal GPS
antenna?

I have somewhere a paper (which i cannot find currently, sorry) that
used a dish trained at one of the EGNOS satellites and used it as the
only source for timing. IIRC the results were promising, but not
spectacular. The problem being that all the ionospheric and tropospheric
effects limited the performance, which also could not be averaged
over several satellites. Hence most people today focus on whole
constelation systems and try to get the best out of that, even under
multipath and jamming.

 Attila Kinali

--
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
use without that foundation.
  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neal Stephenson

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

It’s back in the FCS archives. I don’t think it’s one of the ones you can hit 
without going through a
paywall. It was a fun paper to attend. The chatter in the room was 
“interesting” to say the least.

Bob

> On Aug 31, 2018, at 1:07 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob:
> 
> Do you have and info on that article that would allow me to read it?
> 
> -- 
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
> https://www.PRC68.com
> https://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> axioms:
> 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by 
> how well you understand how it works.
> 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
> 
>  Original Message 
>> Hi
>> 
>> The original “we cracked GPS” paper back in the 1980’s (that unlimitedly 
>> lead to the end of SA)
>> used a medium sized dish ( think of the good old C-band antennas) to pick 
>> out a single sat.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Aug 30, 2018, at 9:54 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Gregory:
>>> 
>>> I wonder if anyone has tried using a small parabolic dish, like used for 
>>> Free To Air satellite TV and aimed it at a GPS satellite track or at a WAAS 
>>> geostationary satellite using a feed antenna with reverse polarization from 
>>> a normal GPS antenna?
>>> http://www.prc68.com/I/FTA.shtml
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Have Fun,
>>> 
>>> Brooke Clarke
>>> https://www.PRC68.com
>>> https://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
>>> axioms:
>>> 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by 
>>> how well you understand how it works.
>>> 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
>>> 
>>>  Original Message 
 On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:43 PM Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to 
> wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency
> goes down as the size of the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
> So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 
> wavelength is a few inches, something that  you can
> hold in your hand.
 However, the short wavelengths of GPS make beam forming a reasonable
 countermeasure against jamming.
 
 By having a small array of GPS antennas a receiver can digitally form
 beams that both aim directly at the relevant satellites (so even
 reducing intersatellite interference) while also steering a deep null
 in the direction of the jammer.  If the jammer is powerful enough to
 overload the front-end then this won't help, but against a
 non-targeted area denying jammer it should be fairly effective.
 
 There are many papers on GNSS beamforming. ( e.g.
 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134596/
 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134483/ )
 
 This kind of anti-jamming solution should even be pretty inexpensive
 -- really no more than the cost of N receivers. Except that it is
 specialized technology and thus very expensive. :)
 
 Seeing some open source software implementing beam-forming was one of
 the things I hoped to see result from the open hardware multi-band
 GNSS receivers like the GNSS firehose project (
 http://pmonta.com/blog/2017/05/05/gnss-firehose-update/ ) since once
 you're going through the trouble of running three coherent receivers
 for three bands, stacking three more of them and locking them to the
 same clock doesn't seem like a big engineering challenge... and the
 rest is just DSP work.
 
 Even absent fancy beam forming, for GNSS timing with a surveyed
 position except at high latitudes it should be possible to use a
 relatively high gain antenna pointed straight up and by doing so blind
 yourself to terrestrial jammers at a cost of fewer SVs being
 available. But I've never tried it.
 
 In an urban area I noticed my own GPSDOs losing signal multiple times
 per week. Monitoring with an SDR showed what appeared to be jammers.
 
 As others have noted intermittent jamming is pretty benign to a GPSDO.
 Spoofing, OTOH, can trivially mess up the timing.  It's my view that
 if you need timing for a security critical purpose there isn't really
 any GNSS based solution commercially available to the general public
 right now, the best bet is a local atomic reference with a GPSDO used
 to monitor and initially set it.
 
 ___
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 To unsubscribe, go to 
 http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
 and follow the instructions there.
 
>>> 
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>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 

Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Bob:

Do you have and info on that article that would allow me to read it?

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
https://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how 
well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

 Original Message 

Hi

The original “we cracked GPS” paper back in the 1980’s (that unlimitedly lead 
to the end of SA)
used a medium sized dish ( think of the good old C-band antennas) to pick out a 
single sat.

Bob


On Aug 30, 2018, at 9:54 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:

Hi Gregory:

I wonder if anyone has tried using a small parabolic dish, like used for Free 
To Air satellite TV and aimed it at a GPS satellite track or at a WAAS 
geostationary satellite using a feed antenna with reverse polarization from a 
normal GPS antenna?
http://www.prc68.com/I/FTA.shtml

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
https://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how 
well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

 Original Message 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:43 PM Brooke Clarke  wrote:

I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to 
wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency
goes down as the size of the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 wavelength 
is a few inches, something that  you can
hold in your hand.

However, the short wavelengths of GPS make beam forming a reasonable
countermeasure against jamming.

By having a small array of GPS antennas a receiver can digitally form
beams that both aim directly at the relevant satellites (so even
reducing intersatellite interference) while also steering a deep null
in the direction of the jammer.  If the jammer is powerful enough to
overload the front-end then this won't help, but against a
non-targeted area denying jammer it should be fairly effective.

There are many papers on GNSS beamforming. ( e.g.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134596/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134483/ )

This kind of anti-jamming solution should even be pretty inexpensive
-- really no more than the cost of N receivers. Except that it is
specialized technology and thus very expensive. :)

Seeing some open source software implementing beam-forming was one of
the things I hoped to see result from the open hardware multi-band
GNSS receivers like the GNSS firehose project (
http://pmonta.com/blog/2017/05/05/gnss-firehose-update/ ) since once
you're going through the trouble of running three coherent receivers
for three bands, stacking three more of them and locking them to the
same clock doesn't seem like a big engineering challenge... and the
rest is just DSP work.

Even absent fancy beam forming, for GNSS timing with a surveyed
position except at high latitudes it should be possible to use a
relatively high gain antenna pointed straight up and by doing so blind
yourself to terrestrial jammers at a cost of fewer SVs being
available. But I've never tried it.

In an urban area I noticed my own GPSDOs losing signal multiple times
per week. Monitoring with an SDR showed what appeared to be jammers.

As others have noted intermittent jamming is pretty benign to a GPSDO.
Spoofing, OTOH, can trivially mess up the timing.  It's my view that
if you need timing for a security critical purpose there isn't really
any GNSS based solution commercially available to the general public
right now, the best bet is a local atomic reference with a GPSDO used
to monitor and initially set it.

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Azelio Boriani]

Maybe this one is equivalent?

On Fri, Aug 31, 2018 at 4:55 PM Attila Kinali  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 18:54:17 -0700
> Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>
> > I wonder if anyone has tried using a small parabolic dish, like used for 
> > Free To Air satellite TV and aimed it at a GPS
> > satellite track or at a WAAS geostationary satellite using a feed antenna 
> > with reverse polarization from a normal GPS
> > antenna?
>
> I have somewhere a paper (which i cannot find currently, sorry) that
> used a dish trained at one of the EGNOS satellites and used it as the
> only source for timing. IIRC the results were promising, but not
> spectacular. The problem being that all the ionospheric and tropospheric
> effects limited the performance, which also could not be averaged
> over several satellites. Hence most people today focus on whole
> constelation systems and try to get the best out of that, even under
> multipath and jamming.
>
> Attila Kinali
>
> --
> It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All
> the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no
> use without that foundation.
>  -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neal Stephenson
>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Attila Kinali]

On Thu, 30 Aug 2018 18:54:17 -0700
Brooke Clarke  wrote:

> I wonder if anyone has tried using a small parabolic dish, like used for Free 
> To Air satellite TV and aimed it at a GPS 
> satellite track or at a WAAS geostationary satellite using a feed antenna 
> with reverse polarization from a normal GPS 
> antenna?

I have somewhere a paper (which i cannot find currently, sorry) that
used a dish trained at one of the EGNOS satellites and used it as the
only source for timing. IIRC the results were promising, but not
spectacular. The problem being that all the ionospheric and tropospheric
effects limited the performance, which also could not be averaged
over several satellites. Hence most people today focus on whole
constelation systems and try to get the best out of that, even under
multipath and jamming.

Attila Kinali

-- 
It is upon moral qualities that a society is ultimately founded. All 
the prosperity and technological sophistication in the world is of no 
use without that foundation.
 -- Miss Matheson, The Diamond Age, Neal Stephenson

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

 “Backbone timing” gets done by boxes buried deep in systems. Those systems 
take years
to design. The boxes that go in them similarly take years to get onto the 
market. Once designed
deployment is far from instantaneous. Operators are always pressed by cost 
constraints. Adding
anything beyond the minimums … not going to happen.

The result is that there are no systems out there that use WWVB or WWV other 
than wrist watches
and wall clock like devices. Utilities (cell phones, internet, finance ) run 
with something else. Converting
them to a secondary “something” is a many years sort of thing, even if it is 
technically feasible. 

You can pull a bunch of spare GPS sat’s out of storage and get them in orbit 
*way* quicker than you can 
rebuild every cell tower in the country. In fact, newer designs run their 
timing in a way that a GPS failure 
is not that big a deal. How long it’ll take before that sort of design is 
common in the US…. years and years …

If you are going to come up with a time source at the ~ 10 ns level, that’s not 
going to happen from WWVB
or WWV. They never were good enough to get to that level and it’s not on the 
transmit end. You would need
a very different system. It’s been a long time since any of these services 
(internet, finance, cell )  were in the 
millisecond or even the microsecond range. The modern stuff in all theses areas 
 is  < 100 ns. 

How long would it take to change all this? Well first some random Senior Member 
of the IEEE would 
have to start writing papers about the various issues. Various organizations in 
various countries would 
need to hold meeting after meeting after meeting talking things over. Somebody 
eventually would have
to come up with funds to actually try a few things. Maybe they work in the real 
world / maybe they don’t
work. 

Once you prove you have a system that can do “good enough", you would need laws 
/ regulations passed to
make the “new thing” part of the required designs. You also need funding bills 
to deploy the “source” end 
of things and time to get that up and running. Once it’s running, you then give 
manufacturers some amount of time 
to get it in the field ….. and extensions when that doesn’t happen. Twenty 
years? Thirty years? Maybe longer? 
This stuff does not go very fast. 

Best bet on what the “new thing” would be? Something like IEEE-1588 over fiber. 
It cuts out a bunch of this and 
that in terms of experiments and testing the basic system. We know most of 
*how* to do it already. It’s just a matter 
of a  billions of dollars in tax money to get the gaps filled in and then a few 
tens of billions in tax money to get
the backbone gear in place. Once that’s done you ramp up to the really 
expensive part of the deal ….Is it paid
for by your tax return in April or by a higher price on every cell call / 
transaction you make? … who knows … it’s 
a tax that you are paying either way. 

Bob

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Peter Laws via time-nuts 
>  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:59 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> There most certainly was a lot of “stuff” in orbit by that time. If there was
>> a mass die off of satellites, you would not have to look hard to find out 
>> about
>> it.
> 
> Probably not as many as there are 3 decades later, but of course.
> Satellite service (any type of satellite) is much more likely to be
> human-caued.
> 
> But here (and in other fora) the concern is that WWV Must Be
> Maintained in order to save us from being late for coffee if another
> event on the level of the Carrington Event takes out every single GNSS
> spacecraft in orbit.  But I can't find anything on the effect of that
> sort of solar event on satellites.  Almost as if, maybe, satellite
> operators were aware of solar physics and planned for this sort of
> event.
> 
> And I still haven't seen any coherent argument in favor of keeping WWV
> that doesn't involve nostalgia or (perhaps) unfounded fear.
> 
> -- 
> Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!
> 
> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Peter Laws via time-nuts]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 12:59 PM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> There most certainly was a lot of “stuff” in orbit by that time. If there was
> a mass die off of satellites, you would not have to look hard to find out 
> about
> it.

Probably not as many as there are 3 decades later, but of course.
Satellite service (any type of satellite) is much more likely to be
human-caued.

But here (and in other fora) the concern is that WWV Must Be
Maintained in order to save us from being late for coffee if another
event on the level of the Carrington Event takes out every single GNSS
spacecraft in orbit.  But I can't find anything on the effect of that
sort of solar event on satellites.  Almost as if, maybe, satellite
operators were aware of solar physics and planned for this sort of
event.

And I still haven't seen any coherent argument in favor of keeping WWV
that doesn't involve nostalgia or (perhaps) unfounded fear.

-- 
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The original “we cracked GPS” paper back in the 1980’s (that unlimitedly lead 
to the end of SA) 
used a medium sized dish ( think of the good old C-band antennas) to pick out a 
single sat.

Bob

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 9:54 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> 
> Hi Gregory:
> 
> I wonder if anyone has tried using a small parabolic dish, like used for Free 
> To Air satellite TV and aimed it at a GPS satellite track or at a WAAS 
> geostationary satellite using a feed antenna with reverse polarization from a 
> normal GPS antenna?
> http://www.prc68.com/I/FTA.shtml
> 
> -- 
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke
> https://www.PRC68.com
> https://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> axioms:
> 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by 
> how well you understand how it works.
> 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
> 
>  Original Message 
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:43 PM Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>>> I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to 
>>> wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency
>>> goes down as the size of the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
>>> So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 
>>> wavelength is a few inches, something that  you can
>>> hold in your hand.
>> However, the short wavelengths of GPS make beam forming a reasonable
>> countermeasure against jamming.
>> 
>> By having a small array of GPS antennas a receiver can digitally form
>> beams that both aim directly at the relevant satellites (so even
>> reducing intersatellite interference) while also steering a deep null
>> in the direction of the jammer.  If the jammer is powerful enough to
>> overload the front-end then this won't help, but against a
>> non-targeted area denying jammer it should be fairly effective.
>> 
>> There are many papers on GNSS beamforming. ( e.g.
>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134596/
>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134483/ )
>> 
>> This kind of anti-jamming solution should even be pretty inexpensive
>> -- really no more than the cost of N receivers. Except that it is
>> specialized technology and thus very expensive. :)
>> 
>> Seeing some open source software implementing beam-forming was one of
>> the things I hoped to see result from the open hardware multi-band
>> GNSS receivers like the GNSS firehose project (
>> http://pmonta.com/blog/2017/05/05/gnss-firehose-update/ ) since once
>> you're going through the trouble of running three coherent receivers
>> for three bands, stacking three more of them and locking them to the
>> same clock doesn't seem like a big engineering challenge... and the
>> rest is just DSP work.
>> 
>> Even absent fancy beam forming, for GNSS timing with a surveyed
>> position except at high latitudes it should be possible to use a
>> relatively high gain antenna pointed straight up and by doing so blind
>> yourself to terrestrial jammers at a cost of fewer SVs being
>> available. But I've never tried it.
>> 
>> In an urban area I noticed my own GPSDOs losing signal multiple times
>> per week. Monitoring with an SDR showed what appeared to be jammers.
>> 
>> As others have noted intermittent jamming is pretty benign to a GPSDO.
>> Spoofing, OTOH, can trivially mess up the timing.  It's my view that
>> if you need timing for a security critical purpose there isn't really
>> any GNSS based solution commercially available to the general public
>> right now, the best bet is a local atomic reference with a GPSDO used
>> to monitor and initially set it.
>> 
>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe, go to 
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> 
> 
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[time-nuts] NIST

[Mark Sims]

I once bought a pair of low power 315 MHz TX/RX modules and was going to try 
them in a model rocket + GPS.   I tested them with a serial port and they had a 
range of a couple thousand feet at 1200 BPS.   But when the transmitter was 
connected to the GPS, the GPS lost lock... turns out 315 MHz * 5 is the GPS 
carrier frequency.   They would totally jam GPS over around a mile diameter.  
Also the maker of the modules stopped selling them and actually disavowed that 
they ever existed!
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Gregory:

I wonder if anyone has tried using a small parabolic dish, like used for Free To Air satellite TV and aimed it at a GPS 
satellite track or at a WAAS geostationary satellite using a feed antenna with reverse polarization from a normal GPS 
antenna?

http://www.prc68.com/I/FTA.shtml

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
https://www.PRC68.com
https://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how 
well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

 Original Message 

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:43 PM Brooke Clarke  wrote:

I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to 
wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency
goes down as the size of the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 wavelength 
is a few inches, something that  you can
hold in your hand.

However, the short wavelengths of GPS make beam forming a reasonable
countermeasure against jamming.

By having a small array of GPS antennas a receiver can digitally form
beams that both aim directly at the relevant satellites (so even
reducing intersatellite interference) while also steering a deep null
in the direction of the jammer.  If the jammer is powerful enough to
overload the front-end then this won't help, but against a
non-targeted area denying jammer it should be fairly effective.

There are many papers on GNSS beamforming. ( e.g.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134596/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134483/ )

This kind of anti-jamming solution should even be pretty inexpensive
-- really no more than the cost of N receivers. Except that it is
specialized technology and thus very expensive. :)

Seeing some open source software implementing beam-forming was one of
the things I hoped to see result from the open hardware multi-band
GNSS receivers like the GNSS firehose project (
http://pmonta.com/blog/2017/05/05/gnss-firehose-update/ ) since once
you're going through the trouble of running three coherent receivers
for three bands, stacking three more of them and locking them to the
same clock doesn't seem like a big engineering challenge... and the
rest is just DSP work.

Even absent fancy beam forming, for GNSS timing with a surveyed
position except at high latitudes it should be possible to use a
relatively high gain antenna pointed straight up and by doing so blind
yourself to terrestrial jammers at a cost of fewer SVs being
available. But I've never tried it.

In an urban area I noticed my own GPSDOs losing signal multiple times
per week. Monitoring with an SDR showed what appeared to be jammers.

As others have noted intermittent jamming is pretty benign to a GPSDO.
Spoofing, OTOH, can trivially mess up the timing.  It's my view that
if you need timing for a security critical purpose there isn't really
any GNSS based solution commercially available to the general public
right now, the best bet is a local atomic reference with a GPSDO used
to monitor and initially set it.

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

….. ok, so you are dealing with city wide jammers that take out all of New York 
City on a daily basis? 
Again, that was the original example tossed out. “A cigarette pack sized jammer 
that takes out an entire
city”.  A jammer with that sort of range is an easy jammer to spot. 

Somehow I find that a bit difficult to believe. What I’ve seen and gone after 
are *far* shorter range than 
that magic device.  A short rang mobile jammer aimed at an ankle bracelet takes 
out an infrastructure  device 
for minutes. That’s why those devices have holdover capabilities. 

Indeed at the point they *do* start interfering with major systems over a wide 
range…. bigger gear gets brought in. 
Jamming that actually takes utility systems down is very rare. No cell phone 
service anywhere in New York is 
something that gets noticed pretty fast. It also fires up meetings that last 
quite literally for years …..

Bob

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 8:43 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
> 
> Just ask the NY Port authority how ‘easy’ knocking these jammers offline is.  
>  Usually done by vehicle to vehicle inspection with a SA.
> 
> And yes the day job all too frequently searching for and identifying 
> interference sources.
> 
> One of the more interesting ones was a halogen leak detector wiping out WiFi 
> at a manufacturing plant.   So my opinions on interference location are 
> informed by leading teams of people doing just that.
> 
> Content by Scott
> Typos by Siri
> 
> On Aug 30, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Since timing receivers are actually going to prefer high angle sats, an 
> antenna that rejects 
> close to the horizon is a pretty common thing. Enhancing that sort of 
> rejection doesn’t take 
> a lot of effort. 
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Aug 30, 2018, at 7:05 PM, Gregory Maxwell  wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:43 PM Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>>> I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to 
>>> wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency
>>> goes down as the size of the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
>>> So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 
>>> wavelength is a few inches, something that  you can
>>> hold in your hand.
>> 
>> However, the short wavelengths of GPS make beam forming a reasonable
>> countermeasure against jamming.
>> 
>> By having a small array of GPS antennas a receiver can digitally form
>> beams that both aim directly at the relevant satellites (so even
>> reducing intersatellite interference) while also steering a deep null
>> in the direction of the jammer.  If the jammer is powerful enough to
>> overload the front-end then this won't help, but against a
>> non-targeted area denying jammer it should be fairly effective.
>> 
>> There are many papers on GNSS beamforming. ( e.g.
>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134596/
>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134483/ )
>> 
>> This kind of anti-jamming solution should even be pretty inexpensive
>> -- really no more than the cost of N receivers. Except that it is
>> specialized technology and thus very expensive. :)
>> 
>> Seeing some open source software implementing beam-forming was one of
>> the things I hoped to see result from the open hardware multi-band
>> GNSS receivers like the GNSS firehose project (
>> http://pmonta.com/blog/2017/05/05/gnss-firehose-update/ ) since once
>> you're going through the trouble of running three coherent receivers
>> for three bands, stacking three more of them and locking them to the
>> same clock doesn't seem like a big engineering challenge... and the
>> rest is just DSP work.
>> 
>> Even absent fancy beam forming, for GNSS timing with a surveyed
>> position except at high latitudes it should be possible to use a
>> relatively high gain antenna pointed straight up and by doing so blind
>> yourself to terrestrial jammers at a cost of fewer SVs being
>> available. But I've never tried it.
>> 
>> In an urban area I noticed my own GPSDOs losing signal multiple times
>> per week. Monitoring with an SDR showed what appeared to be jammers.
>> 
>> As others have noted intermittent jamming is pretty benign to a GPSDO.
>> Spoofing, OTOH, can trivially mess up the timing.  It's my view that
>> if you need timing for a security critical purpose there isn't really
>> any GNSS based solution commercially available to the general public
>> right now, the best bet is a local atomic reference with a GPSDO used
>> to monitor and initially set it.
>> 
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>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Scott McGrath]

Just ask the NY Port authority how ‘easy’ knocking these jammers offline is.   
Usually done by vehicle to vehicle inspection with a SA.

And yes the day job all too frequently searching for and identifying 
interference sources.

One of the more interesting ones was a halogen leak detector wiping out WiFi at 
a manufacturing plant.   So my opinions on interference location are informed 
by leading teams of people doing just that.

Content by Scott
Typos by Siri

On Aug 30, 2018, at 8:24 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

Since timing receivers are actually going to prefer high angle sats, an antenna 
that rejects 
close to the horizon is a pretty common thing. Enhancing that sort of rejection 
doesn’t take 
a lot of effort. 

Bob

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 7:05 PM, Gregory Maxwell  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:43 PM Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>> I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to 
>> wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency
>> goes down as the size of the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
>> So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 
>> wavelength is a few inches, something that  you can
>> hold in your hand.
> 
> However, the short wavelengths of GPS make beam forming a reasonable
> countermeasure against jamming.
> 
> By having a small array of GPS antennas a receiver can digitally form
> beams that both aim directly at the relevant satellites (so even
> reducing intersatellite interference) while also steering a deep null
> in the direction of the jammer.  If the jammer is powerful enough to
> overload the front-end then this won't help, but against a
> non-targeted area denying jammer it should be fairly effective.
> 
> There are many papers on GNSS beamforming. ( e.g.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134596/
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134483/ )
> 
> This kind of anti-jamming solution should even be pretty inexpensive
> -- really no more than the cost of N receivers. Except that it is
> specialized technology and thus very expensive. :)
> 
> Seeing some open source software implementing beam-forming was one of
> the things I hoped to see result from the open hardware multi-band
> GNSS receivers like the GNSS firehose project (
> http://pmonta.com/blog/2017/05/05/gnss-firehose-update/ ) since once
> you're going through the trouble of running three coherent receivers
> for three bands, stacking three more of them and locking them to the
> same clock doesn't seem like a big engineering challenge... and the
> rest is just DSP work.
> 
> Even absent fancy beam forming, for GNSS timing with a surveyed
> position except at high latitudes it should be possible to use a
> relatively high gain antenna pointed straight up and by doing so blind
> yourself to terrestrial jammers at a cost of fewer SVs being
> available. But I've never tried it.
> 
> In an urban area I noticed my own GPSDOs losing signal multiple times
> per week. Monitoring with an SDR showed what appeared to be jammers.
> 
> As others have noted intermittent jamming is pretty benign to a GPSDO.
> Spoofing, OTOH, can trivially mess up the timing.  It's my view that
> if you need timing for a security critical purpose there isn't really
> any GNSS based solution commercially available to the general public
> right now, the best bet is a local atomic reference with a GPSDO used
> to monitor and initially set it.
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Since timing receivers are actually going to prefer high angle sats, an antenna 
that rejects 
close to the horizon is a pretty common thing. Enhancing that sort of rejection 
doesn’t take 
a lot of effort. 

Bob

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 7:05 PM, Gregory Maxwell  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:43 PM Brooke Clarke  wrote:
>> I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to 
>> wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency
>> goes down as the size of the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
>> So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 
>> wavelength is a few inches, something that  you can
>> hold in your hand.
> 
> However, the short wavelengths of GPS make beam forming a reasonable
> countermeasure against jamming.
> 
> By having a small array of GPS antennas a receiver can digitally form
> beams that both aim directly at the relevant satellites (so even
> reducing intersatellite interference) while also steering a deep null
> in the direction of the jammer.  If the jammer is powerful enough to
> overload the front-end then this won't help, but against a
> non-targeted area denying jammer it should be fairly effective.
> 
> There are many papers on GNSS beamforming. ( e.g.
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134596/
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134483/ )
> 
> This kind of anti-jamming solution should even be pretty inexpensive
> -- really no more than the cost of N receivers. Except that it is
> specialized technology and thus very expensive. :)
> 
> Seeing some open source software implementing beam-forming was one of
> the things I hoped to see result from the open hardware multi-band
> GNSS receivers like the GNSS firehose project (
> http://pmonta.com/blog/2017/05/05/gnss-firehose-update/ ) since once
> you're going through the trouble of running three coherent receivers
> for three bands, stacking three more of them and locking them to the
> same clock doesn't seem like a big engineering challenge... and the
> rest is just DSP work.
> 
> Even absent fancy beam forming, for GNSS timing with a surveyed
> position except at high latitudes it should be possible to use a
> relatively high gain antenna pointed straight up and by doing so blind
> yourself to terrestrial jammers at a cost of fewer SVs being
> available. But I've never tried it.
> 
> In an urban area I noticed my own GPSDOs losing signal multiple times
> per week. Monitoring with an SDR showed what appeared to be jammers.
> 
> As others have noted intermittent jamming is pretty benign to a GPSDO.
> Spoofing, OTOH, can trivially mess up the timing.  It's my view that
> if you need timing for a security critical purpose there isn't really
> any GNSS based solution commercially available to the general public
> right now, the best bet is a local atomic reference with a GPSDO used
> to monitor and initially set it.
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Actually it’s pretty simple to track down that sort of jammer ….. and yes, the 
gear to do it 
is out there in quantity. 

Bob

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 6:51 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
> 
> As Brooke notes while low frequency jammers are possible, practicality is 
> another matter,   All it takes to jam a city scale area is a box the size of 
> a pack of cigarettes.Because the GPS signal is very, very weak.
> 
> As an intentional denial put a couple hundred on stray animals.Now track 
> those jammers down.
> 
> I doubt if any agency owns enough DF equipment to find them all in a 
> reasonable amount of time.
> 
> Thats why we need backup systems and each backup system will have less and 
> less accuracy as it increases in robustness.   The HF systems could provide 
> adequate syncing for the Market example.
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 30, 2018, at 6:18 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
> 
> In message <96e995c4-5ca2-af02-9738-0a6d87a9f...@pacific.net>, Brooke Clarke 
> writes:
> 
>> But it's extremely hard to make a jammer for WWVB (60 kHz) [...]
> 
> You can do it city-scale with a 18-wheeler sized loop-antenna
> and a good size diesel-generator.
> 
> However pedestrians will very likely note metalic items vibrating
> as they pass the "mystery white truck".
> 
> Sweden were much more serious about it:
> 
>   http://www.antus.org/RT02.html
> 
> Tl;drs:
> 
> They erected 9 200m tall Loran-C class antennas each driven by
> a Loran-C transmitter with an advanced degree which could jam
> Loran-C or Chayka.
> 
> They even mounted decoy parabolas on the towers them to hide their
> true purpose.
> 
> The fact that all the transmitters were on the east coast does drop
> a hint that swedens much touted neutrality had a bit of a slant.
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Wes]

Before retiring I did some field work on the Tomahawk AGR 
(https://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/gps_anti-jam)


Wes  N7WS

 On 8/30/2018 4:05 PM, Gregory Maxwell wrote:


However, the short wavelengths of GPS make beam forming a reasonable
countermeasure against jamming.



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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[djl]

Is there a translation of this anywhere?
Don



Sweden were much more serious about it:

http://www.antus.org/RT02.html

Tl;drs:

They erected 9 200m tall Loran-C class antennas each driven by
a Loran-C transmitter with an advanced degree which could jam
Loran-C or Chayka.

They even mounted decoy parabolas on the towers them to hide their
true purpose.

The fact that all the transmitters were on the east coast does drop
a hint that swedens much touted neutrality had a bit of a slant.


--
Dr. Don Latham
PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304


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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:43 PM Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to 
> wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency
> goes down as the size of the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
> So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 wavelength 
> is a few inches, something that  you can
> hold in your hand.

However, the short wavelengths of GPS make beam forming a reasonable
countermeasure against jamming.

By having a small array of GPS antennas a receiver can digitally form
beams that both aim directly at the relevant satellites (so even
reducing intersatellite interference) while also steering a deep null
in the direction of the jammer.  If the jammer is powerful enough to
overload the front-end then this won't help, but against a
non-targeted area denying jammer it should be fairly effective.

There are many papers on GNSS beamforming. ( e.g.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134596/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5134483/ )

This kind of anti-jamming solution should even be pretty inexpensive
-- really no more than the cost of N receivers. Except that it is
specialized technology and thus very expensive. :)

Seeing some open source software implementing beam-forming was one of
the things I hoped to see result from the open hardware multi-band
GNSS receivers like the GNSS firehose project (
http://pmonta.com/blog/2017/05/05/gnss-firehose-update/ ) since once
you're going through the trouble of running three coherent receivers
for three bands, stacking three more of them and locking them to the
same clock doesn't seem like a big engineering challenge... and the
rest is just DSP work.

Even absent fancy beam forming, for GNSS timing with a surveyed
position except at high latitudes it should be possible to use a
relatively high gain antenna pointed straight up and by doing so blind
yourself to terrestrial jammers at a cost of fewer SVs being
available. But I've never tried it.

In an urban area I noticed my own GPSDOs losing signal multiple times
per week. Monitoring with an SDR showed what appeared to be jammers.

As others have noted intermittent jamming is pretty benign to a GPSDO.
Spoofing, OTOH, can trivially mess up the timing.  It's my view that
if you need timing for a security critical purpose there isn't really
any GNSS based solution commercially available to the general public
right now, the best bet is a local atomic reference with a GPSDO used
to monitor and initially set it.

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Scott McGrath]

As Brooke notes while low frequency jammers are possible, practicality is 
another matter,   All it takes to jam a city scale area is a box the size of a 
pack of cigarettes.Because the GPS signal is very, very weak.

As an intentional denial put a couple hundred on stray animals.Now track 
those jammers down.

I doubt if any agency owns enough DF equipment to find them all in a reasonable 
amount of time.

Thats why we need backup systems and each backup system will have less and less 
accuracy as it increases in robustness.   The HF systems could provide adequate 
syncing for the Market example.



On Aug 30, 2018, at 6:18 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:


In message <96e995c4-5ca2-af02-9738-0a6d87a9f...@pacific.net>, Brooke Clarke 
writes:

> But it's extremely hard to make a jammer for WWVB (60 kHz) [...]

You can do it city-scale with a 18-wheeler sized loop-antenna
and a good size diesel-generator.

However pedestrians will very likely note metalic items vibrating
as they pass the "mystery white truck".

Sweden were much more serious about it:

   http://www.antus.org/RT02.html

Tl;drs:

They erected 9 200m tall Loran-C class antennas each driven by
a Loran-C transmitter with an advanced degree which could jam
Loran-C or Chayka.

They even mounted decoy parabolas on the towers them to hide their
true purpose.

The fact that all the transmitters were on the east coast does drop
a hint that swedens much touted neutrality had a bit of a slant.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Well, designing jammers on a public forum is an “interesting” thing to do…..

With WWVB, you are fine with a “near field” solution. You don’t need something 
that propagates for 
miles and miles. The other thing you have in your favor is that coming up with 
a KW at 60 KHz is 
quite easy. All those 60 KHz switchers we complain about … there’s your dirt 
cheap source of parts. 

The next part of the “solution” is to feed your signal into the local power 
grid. Your switcher is happy
with a low impedance load. The power line looks fairly low impedance at 60 KHz. 
It goes the RF and 
out and about it flows. Indeed it works pretty well over a good chunk of 
ground. At least as good as your
typical GPS jammer and no more expensive. Been there end done all that, though 
not for a WWVB jammer. 

Bob

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 5:20 PM, Brooke Clarke  wrote:
> 
> Hi Bob:
> 
> I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to 
> wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency goes down as the size of the 
> antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
> So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 wavelength 
> is a few inches, something that  you can hold in your hand.
> It's harder to make a WWV jammer (.5, 5, 10, 15, 20 MHz) since a 1/4 
> wavelength in in the range of  500 to 12 feet, something that can be mounted 
> on a vehicle for the higher frequencies.
> But it's extremely hard to make a jammer for WWVB (60 kHz) where a 
> 1/4wavelength is over 4,000 feet.  This means an antenna that can be vehicle 
> mounted will be very inefficient. Note this also means that it's extremely 
> hard to make a Loran-C jammer.  Note that the WWVB and LORAN-C transmitters 
> run very high power and the antennas are massive.
> 
> This also means that if someone makes a WWVB simulator for their house the 
> signal at the next door neighbor's house is probably going to be too small to 
> effect their clocks.
> 
> PS. Some decades ago I maintained a beacon transmitter "LAH" on 175 kHz where 
> the rules for unlicensed operation limited the input power to 1 Watt and 
> total antenna length to 50 feet.  Under these conditions the effective 
> radiated power might be 2 milliwatts, orders of magnitude less if a portable 
> system.
> http://www.auroralchorus.com/pli/1750meter_antennas.pdf
> 
> -- 
> Have Fun,
> 
> Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
> https://www.PRC68.com
> https://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
> axioms:
> 1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by 
> how well you understand how it works.
> 2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.
> 
>  Original Message 
>> Hi
>> 
>> When infastructure GPS *does* get jammed these days that source gets tracked 
>> down a lot faster
>> than a month or so. Anything that goes on for more than a day gets booted up 
>> pretty high
>> pretty fast. Indeed I’ve been in the middle of that more than I would have 
>> wished to be …..
>> 
>> The same sort of RFI issues that take out GPS from a TV preamp  can equally 
>> well take out WWVB or WWV.
>> With WWVB, there are a *lot* of 60KHz switching power supplies out there to 
>> create problems. There is nothing
>> unique about any of these services in terms of being jam immune.
>> 
>> The bigger issue with any of them is spoofing. A proper GPSDO will go into 
>> holdover when RFI jammed. I would
>> *assume* the same would be true of a fancy WWVB device. I’m not at all sure 
>> that’s true of a real WWVB standard,
>> they haven’t been for sale new for a really long time. If your time source 
>> is in holdover, you can go out and track down
>> the issue. If it simply locks to the new signal …. not so much.
>> 
>> There is a subtle distinction in some of this. Newer systems do indeed want 
>> time. Older systems were generally after
>> frequency. The only WWVB standards I’ve seen were aimed at frequency (and 
>> frequency holdover) rather than time and
>> time holdover. Getting reasonable (1 to 10 ppb) frequency from WWVB is a 
>> very different task than getting the sort of time
>> that modern systems are after.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Aug 30, 2018, at 2:46 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The port of Long Beach CA was jammed wrt GPS for several months by a 
>>> malfunctioning 29.95 TV preamplifier on a boat.
>>> 
>>> GPS was completely unusable when this unsuspecting guy was watching TV on 
>>> his boat.
>>> 
>>> He had quite the surprise when the coasties with guns showed up.
>>> 
>>> The fact is civillian GPS Is trivial to jam and jammers can be bought 
>>> ‘under the counter’ at any truckstop along with illlegal linear amplifiers.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:58 PM, Peter Laws  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 8:52 AM Peter Laws  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 I have yet to hear anyone make a case for retaining the HF system that
 isn't backed by nostalgia.
>>> Still looking for this.  Most of the "OMG IF WWV GOES AWAY MILLIONS
>>> 

Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Brooke Clarke]

Hi Bob:

I would disagree in that ease of jamming/spoofing is strongly related to wavelength.  That's because antenna efficiency 
goes down as the size of the antenna gets smaller than 1/4 wave.
So, it's easy to make a GPS jammer (1,100 to 1,600MHz) since a 1/4 wavelength is a few inches, something that  you can 
hold in your hand.
It's harder to make a WWV jammer (.5, 5, 10, 15, 20 MHz) since a 1/4 wavelength in in the range of  500 to 12 feet, 
something that can be mounted on a vehicle for the higher frequencies.
But it's extremely hard to make a jammer for WWVB (60 kHz) where a 1/4wavelength is over 4,000 feet.  This means an 
antenna that can be vehicle mounted will be very inefficient. Note this also means that it's extremely hard to make a 
Loran-C jammer.  Note that the WWVB and LORAN-C transmitters run very high power and the antennas are massive.


This also means that if someone makes a WWVB simulator for their house the signal at the next door neighbor's house is 
probably going to be too small to effect their clocks.


PS. Some decades ago I maintained a beacon transmitter "LAH" on 175 kHz where the rules for unlicensed operation limited 
the input power to 1 Watt and total antenna length to 50 feet.  Under these conditions the effective radiated power 
might be 2 milliwatts, orders of magnitude less if a portable system.

http://www.auroralchorus.com/pli/1750meter_antennas.pdf

--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke, N6GCE
https://www.PRC68.com
https://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html
axioms:
1. The extent to which you can fix or improve something will be limited by how 
well you understand how it works.
2. Everybody, with no exceptions, holds false beliefs.

 Original Message 

Hi

When infastructure GPS *does* get jammed these days that source gets tracked 
down a lot faster
than a month or so. Anything that goes on for more than a day gets booted up 
pretty high
pretty fast. Indeed I’ve been in the middle of that more than I would have 
wished to be …..

The same sort of RFI issues that take out GPS from a TV preamp  can equally 
well take out WWVB or WWV.
With WWVB, there are a *lot* of 60KHz switching power supplies out there to 
create problems. There is nothing
unique about any of these services in terms of being jam immune.

The bigger issue with any of them is spoofing. A proper GPSDO will go into 
holdover when RFI jammed. I would
*assume* the same would be true of a fancy WWVB device. I’m not at all sure 
that’s true of a real WWVB standard,
they haven’t been for sale new for a really long time. If your time source is 
in holdover, you can go out and track down
the issue. If it simply locks to the new signal …. not so much.

There is a subtle distinction in some of this. Newer systems do indeed want 
time. Older systems were generally after
frequency. The only WWVB standards I’ve seen were aimed at frequency (and 
frequency holdover) rather than time and
time holdover. Getting reasonable (1 to 10 ppb) frequency from WWVB is a very 
different task than getting the sort of time
that modern systems are after.

Bob


On Aug 30, 2018, at 2:46 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:

The port of Long Beach CA was jammed wrt GPS for several months by a 
malfunctioning 29.95 TV preamplifier on a boat.

GPS was completely unusable when this unsuspecting guy was watching TV on his 
boat.

He had quite the surprise when the coasties with guns showed up.

The fact is civillian GPS Is trivial to jam and jammers can be bought ‘under 
the counter’ at any truckstop along with illlegal linear amplifiers.



On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:58 PM, Peter Laws  wrote:

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 8:52 AM Peter Laws  wrote:



I have yet to hear anyone make a case for retaining the HF system that
isn't backed by nostalgia.

Still looking for this.  Most of the "OMG IF WWV GOES AWAY MILLIONS
WILL DIE" posts (elsewhere, not here ... quite ...) are the type of
hysteria that is usually reserved for, I don't know, the EMP folks.
:-)



As for solar flares taking out the various GNSSs ... wouldn't a solar
flare only take out the vehicles that were on the "sunny" side of the
Earth?  Wouldn't the (approximately) half of the SVs that are in the
Earth's shadow be unaffected?  Serious technical question - I have no
idea.

One of the responses to my initial message pointed out that the
effects of solar flares and CMEs take a while to get from Sol to Sol
III and don't arrive all at once, so potentially all GNSS spacecraft
could be affected.

Since then, I've been poking around for papers on the effect
(observed, potential, theoretical) of these events on the Navstar or
other GNSS constellations but am not having much luck.  I assume it's
because I'm not putting the right magic incantation into the google
machine.

Anyone got some cites?  Looking for the effect of solar flares and
CMEs on the spacecraft themselves and not how the GNSSs can be used to
measure the effects on the ionosphere, etc (those seem plentiful).
IOW, I'm 

Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

When infastructure GPS *does* get jammed these days that source gets tracked 
down a lot faster
than a month or so. Anything that goes on for more than a day gets booted up 
pretty high
pretty fast. Indeed I’ve been in the middle of that more than I would have 
wished to be …..

The same sort of RFI issues that take out GPS from a TV preamp  can equally 
well take out WWVB or WWV.
With WWVB, there are a *lot* of 60KHz switching power supplies out there to 
create problems. There is nothing 
unique about any of these services in terms of being jam immune. 

The bigger issue with any of them is spoofing. A proper GPSDO will go into 
holdover when RFI jammed. I would
*assume* the same would be true of a fancy WWVB device. I’m not at all sure 
that’s true of a real WWVB standard, 
they haven’t been for sale new for a really long time. If your time source is 
in holdover, you can go out and track down
the issue. If it simply locks to the new signal …. not so much. 

There is a subtle distinction in some of this. Newer systems do indeed want 
time. Older systems were generally after 
frequency. The only WWVB standards I’ve seen were aimed at frequency (and 
frequency holdover) rather than time and
time holdover. Getting reasonable (1 to 10 ppb) frequency from WWVB is a very 
different task than getting the sort of time
that modern systems are after. 

Bob

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 2:46 PM, Scott McGrath  wrote:
> 
> The port of Long Beach CA was jammed wrt GPS for several months by a 
> malfunctioning 29.95 TV preamplifier on a boat.
> 
> GPS was completely unusable when this unsuspecting guy was watching TV on his 
> boat.
> 
> He had quite the surprise when the coasties with guns showed up.
> 
> The fact is civillian GPS Is trivial to jam and jammers can be bought ‘under 
> the counter’ at any truckstop along with illlegal linear amplifiers.
> 
> 
> 
> On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:58 PM, Peter Laws  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 8:52 AM Peter Laws  wrote:
> 
> 
>> I have yet to hear anyone make a case for retaining the HF system that
>> isn't backed by nostalgia.
> 
> Still looking for this.  Most of the "OMG IF WWV GOES AWAY MILLIONS
> WILL DIE" posts (elsewhere, not here ... quite ...) are the type of
> hysteria that is usually reserved for, I don't know, the EMP folks.
> :-)
> 
> 
>> As for solar flares taking out the various GNSSs ... wouldn't a solar
>> flare only take out the vehicles that were on the "sunny" side of the
>> Earth?  Wouldn't the (approximately) half of the SVs that are in the
>> Earth's shadow be unaffected?  Serious technical question - I have no
>> idea.
> 
> One of the responses to my initial message pointed out that the
> effects of solar flares and CMEs take a while to get from Sol to Sol
> III and don't arrive all at once, so potentially all GNSS spacecraft
> could be affected.
> 
> Since then, I've been poking around for papers on the effect
> (observed, potential, theoretical) of these events on the Navstar or
> other GNSS constellations but am not having much luck.  I assume it's
> because I'm not putting the right magic incantation into the google
> machine.
> 
> Anyone got some cites?  Looking for the effect of solar flares and
> CMEs on the spacecraft themselves and not how the GNSSs can be used to
> measure the effects on the ionosphere, etc (those seem plentiful).
> IOW, I'm curious about the resiliency of the systems to solar events.
> 
> I did note that at the time of the 1989 solar event that took out a
> lot of Hydro Quebec's grid, only the "Block I" experimental GPS "SVs"
> were in orbit.  Well, maybe a couple of the later ones - the
> operational constellation started launching about a month before that
> flare.
> 
> As I said initially, I'll be sad if WWV* goes away but it won't affect
> my life in any measurable way that I can see.  I mean, other than the
> mantle clock slowly losing time.
> 
> -- 
> Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Scott McGrath]

The port of Long Beach CA was jammed wrt GPS for several months by a 
malfunctioning 29.95 TV preamplifier on a boat.

GPS was completely unusable when this unsuspecting guy was watching TV on his 
boat.

He had quite the surprise when the coasties with guns showed up.

The fact is civillian GPS Is trivial to jam and jammers can be bought ‘under 
the counter’ at any truckstop along with illlegal linear amplifiers.



On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:58 PM, Peter Laws  wrote:

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 8:52 AM Peter Laws  wrote:


> I have yet to hear anyone make a case for retaining the HF system that
> isn't backed by nostalgia.

Still looking for this.  Most of the "OMG IF WWV GOES AWAY MILLIONS
WILL DIE" posts (elsewhere, not here ... quite ...) are the type of
hysteria that is usually reserved for, I don't know, the EMP folks.
:-)


> As for solar flares taking out the various GNSSs ... wouldn't a solar
> flare only take out the vehicles that were on the "sunny" side of the
> Earth?  Wouldn't the (approximately) half of the SVs that are in the
> Earth's shadow be unaffected?  Serious technical question - I have no
> idea.

One of the responses to my initial message pointed out that the
effects of solar flares and CMEs take a while to get from Sol to Sol
III and don't arrive all at once, so potentially all GNSS spacecraft
could be affected.

Since then, I've been poking around for papers on the effect
(observed, potential, theoretical) of these events on the Navstar or
other GNSS constellations but am not having much luck.  I assume it's
because I'm not putting the right magic incantation into the google
machine.

Anyone got some cites?  Looking for the effect of solar flares and
CMEs on the spacecraft themselves and not how the GNSSs can be used to
measure the effects on the ionosphere, etc (those seem plentiful).
IOW, I'm curious about the resiliency of the systems to solar events.

I did note that at the time of the 1989 solar event that took out a
lot of Hydro Quebec's grid, only the "Block I" experimental GPS "SVs"
were in orbit.  Well, maybe a couple of the later ones - the
operational constellation started launching about a month before that
flare.

As I said initially, I'll be sad if WWV* goes away but it won't affect
my life in any measurable way that I can see.  I mean, other than the
mantle clock slowly losing time.

-- 
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

> On Aug 30, 2018, at 12:58 PM, Peter Laws  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 8:52 AM Peter Laws  wrote:
> 
> 
>> I have yet to hear anyone make a case for retaining the HF system that
>> isn't backed by nostalgia.
> 
> Still looking for this.  Most of the "OMG IF WWV GOES AWAY MILLIONS
> WILL DIE" posts (elsewhere, not here ... quite ...) are the type of
> hysteria that is usually reserved for, I don't know, the EMP folks.
> :-)
> 
> 
>> As for solar flares taking out the various GNSSs ... wouldn't a solar
>> flare only take out the vehicles that were on the "sunny" side of the
>> Earth?  Wouldn't the (approximately) half of the SVs that are in the
>> Earth's shadow be unaffected?  Serious technical question - I have no
>> idea.
> 
> One of the responses to my initial message pointed out that the
> effects of solar flares and CMEs take a while to get from Sol to Sol
> III and don't arrive all at once, so potentially all GNSS spacecraft
> could be affected.
> 
> Since then, I've been poking around for papers on the effect
> (observed, potential, theoretical) of these events on the Navstar or
> other GNSS constellations but am not having much luck.  I assume it's
> because I'm not putting the right magic incantation into the google
> machine.
> 
> Anyone got some cites?  Looking for the effect of solar flares and
> CMEs on the spacecraft themselves and not how the GNSSs can be used to
> measure the effects on the ionosphere, etc (those seem plentiful).
> IOW, I'm curious about the resiliency of the systems to solar events.
> 
> I did note that at the time of the 1989 solar event that took out a
> lot of Hydro Quebec's grid, only the "Block I" experimental GPS "SVs"
> were in orbit.  Well, maybe a couple of the later ones - the
> operational constellation started launching about a month before that
> flare.
> 

There most certainly was a lot of “stuff” in orbit by that time. If there was 
a mass die off of satellites, you would not have to look hard to find out about
it. 

Bob

> As I said initially, I'll be sad if WWV* goes away but it won't affect
> my life in any measurable way that I can see.  I mean, other than the
> mantle clock slowly losing time.
> 
> -- 
> Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Peter Laws]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 8:52 AM Peter Laws  wrote:


> I have yet to hear anyone make a case for retaining the HF system that
> isn't backed by nostalgia.

Still looking for this.  Most of the "OMG IF WWV GOES AWAY MILLIONS
WILL DIE" posts (elsewhere, not here ... quite ...) are the type of
hysteria that is usually reserved for, I don't know, the EMP folks.
:-)


> As for solar flares taking out the various GNSSs ... wouldn't a solar
> flare only take out the vehicles that were on the "sunny" side of the
> Earth?  Wouldn't the (approximately) half of the SVs that are in the
> Earth's shadow be unaffected?  Serious technical question - I have no
> idea.

One of the responses to my initial message pointed out that the
effects of solar flares and CMEs take a while to get from Sol to Sol
III and don't arrive all at once, so potentially all GNSS spacecraft
could be affected.

Since then, I've been poking around for papers on the effect
(observed, potential, theoretical) of these events on the Navstar or
other GNSS constellations but am not having much luck.  I assume it's
because I'm not putting the right magic incantation into the google
machine.

Anyone got some cites?  Looking for the effect of solar flares and
CMEs on the spacecraft themselves and not how the GNSSs can be used to
measure the effects on the ionosphere, etc (those seem plentiful).
IOW, I'm curious about the resiliency of the systems to solar events.

I did note that at the time of the 1989 solar event that took out a
lot of Hydro Quebec's grid, only the "Block I" experimental GPS "SVs"
were in orbit.  Well, maybe a couple of the later ones - the
operational constellation started launching about a month before that
flare.

As I said initially, I'll be sad if WWV* goes away but it won't affect
my life in any measurable way that I can see.  I mean, other than the
mantle clock slowly losing time.

-- 
Peter Laws | N5UWY | plaws plaws net | Travel by Train!

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Scott McGrath]

WRT my sextant comment,   How many pilots or sailors can navigate by ‘shooting 
the sun/stars’.  They have become dependent on precision navigation systems.   

Which of course feeds the thinking by empty suits why do we need lighthouses, 
buoys, VOR’s and airway beacons because we have the ‘god box’ onboard.   Its 
old fashioned and uncool.

 Interestingly enough there have been enough GPS ‘outages’ that the USNO is 
once again requiring proficiency in celestial navigation in order to graduate 
food for thought there.

I was initially speaking about loss of GPS due to natural causes.   In times of 
international tension attacking a country by denying its ONLY source of 
precision time transfer would be a particularly effective tactic and you dont 
even have to damage the satellites themselves.   Just jam L1

As to relying on systems operated by one’s political adversaries that does not 
seem to be a wise option.

So once again for US’ians time to pick up the phone and put pen to paper and 
state while the US budget is bloated.   This particular item NEEDS to stay.   
Find a vanity construction project and make it disappear instead.   And point 
out the technical reasons it needs to stay.


Scott


On Aug 12, 2018, at 4:49 PM, Joe Dempster  wrote:

I hope that defunding is just a ploy and things will remain on the air.  I
am concerned this is starting to sound like 2010 when DHS/USCG took eLoran
off the air in the states.  This was one of the few things that totally
dismayed me about the Obama administration.

> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:59 PM djl  wrote:
> 
> Just a word:   When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most
> valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc.
> This is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .
> Don
> 
> 
>> On 2018-08-12 12:20, paul swed wrote:
>> Like all of you I have a few wwvb clocks that work pretty well here in
>> Boston.
>> Certainly have written enough wwvb stuff and created various wwvb
>> projects
>> that I will have to get back into it again.
>> I did look at the cron-verter. Have to say it has a lot of nice
>> features.
>> Unfortunately it hasn't been available for a year or so. (Getting lazy)
>> The good news is the AM modulation of wwb is very easy to create.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Dana Whitlow 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something
>>> like
>>> "shutting down
>>> the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include
>>> the
>>> whole
>>> enchilada.
>>> 
>>> For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go
>>> to
>>> battery-
>>> backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the
>>> expectation
>>> is to
>>> run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having
>>> to
>>> take my watch
>>> off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
>>> shutdown comes
>>> to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or
>>> at
>>> least
>>> plans for building one.
>>> 
>>> Dana
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
 With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the
> USA
 down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals,
> and
 so on, is great stuff.
On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq <
>>> kb...@n1k.org>
 wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s
> “atomic
 clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
 It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
 wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
 
 Bob
 
> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
 generally in groups here:
>> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
 request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
>> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
 dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in
> Colorado
 and Hawaii"
> 
> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[jimlux]

On 8/13/18 6:10 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Ok, this is Time Nuts. We probably have a pretty good sample of those who use 
this and that as a source of time.
We also are reasonably conscious about what we are doing. NIST’s claimed reason 
for running WWV (and WWVH) is to
distribute accurate time and frequency.

Would / does anybody on the list actually use WWV as their *primary* source of 
accurate time or accurate frequency?



I don't use WWV (or WWVH) as a source of time/frequency per-se - what I 
use it for is as a beacon at a known power, frequency, and antenna 
pattern, with (presumably) very good close in phase noise.


The ionosphere has a coherence time of a few seconds, so ADEV of the 
source at tau of 10 sec or longer isn't a huge thing for me.  But that 1 
Hz/1 sec time frame is of real interest.


As the receiver flies over, we get nice soundings "through" the 
ionosphere with good performance in the short term.


The usual ionosondes don't have anywhere near the same carrier purity, 
and, because they sweep, you have to have good time synchronization of 
your super het receiver to make sure you can tune the signal.


With WWV, I can set my center frequency to, say, 10.005 MHz, record 25 
kHz BW for several minutes as I fly over and make my measurements.  The 
"phase noise and ADEV" of my receiver position is very small - zipping 
along 500 km at the top of the ionosphere, there's not a lot of bumps in 
the road, so it's easy to model the position.


Not for my current spacecraft, but for a future one (SunRISE), we'll be 
measuring (post processed) spacecraft position and time to a few ns. 
The current one isn't that good - but for this one, we're interested in 
the lumps and bumps of the ionosphere, and that's a "over time spans of 
<3 seconds" kind of measurement.



That said, if WWV were to turn off tomorrow, I could probably build a 
ground beacon with adequate performance to do my science. I don't need 
kilowatts of radiated power - it's just convenient that WWV exists and 
someone else does it. And in reality, I'd rather have an antenna which 
radiates more "up" than "out" - WWV and WWVH are vertical dipoles - good 
for skywave propagation, not so hot for vertical sounding.






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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Mark Spencer]

I'll just add:

I got into time nuts after I acquired a GPSDO for checking the frequency 
accuracy of my amateur radios.  I realized I needed a GPSDO when I couldn't 
figure out if I was seeing drift in my radios frequency standards or Doppler 
shift from WWV transmissions while using WWV as a frequency reference.

To recap a prior post I do use WWV fairly often as a time source (mostly when I 
am in "the field") and I have occasionally used WWV as a frequency standard 
(not withstanding my concerns about Doppler shift.)   All of this is for non 
commercial / hobby use. 



Mark Spencer

Aligned Solutions Co.
m...@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099

> On Aug 13, 2018, at 2:10 PM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Ok, this is Time Nuts. We probably have a pretty good sample of those who use 
> this and that as a source of time.
> We also are reasonably conscious about what we are doing. NIST’s claimed 
> reason for running WWV (and WWVH) is to
> distribute accurate time and frequency.
> 
> Would / does anybody on the list actually use WWV as their *primary* source 
> of accurate time or accurate frequency?
> 
> Ok, so how about as a secondary source of time?
> 
> Now show of hands …. third tier backup? 
> 
> I’ll place my votes first …. rarely as a third tier backup. Why? It’s just 
> not good enough any more compared to the other 
> things I have easily available. 
> 
> No, I”m not debating how badly we need third or eight tier backups. The 
> question is purely - what is it actually used for?
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Aug 13, 2018, at 8:39 AM, jimlux  wrote:
>> 
>> On 8/12/18 8:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick wrote:
>>> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the 
>>> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
>> 
>> 
>> WWV/WWVH also provides HF propagation forecasts, severe weather warnings for 
>> mariners, etc., as well as being a propagation beacon.
>> 
>> I don't think HF communications is completely going away - it's unique in 
>> not requiring any infrastructure to achieve world-wide communications other 
>> than the two endpoints of the link.
>> 
>> It's probably a smaller population than radio amateurs, but there are people 
>> who work with HF propagation on a day to day basis. For example, if 
>> Rocketlabs ever gets their act together and launches a couple more rockets, 
>> I'll have a spacecraft in LEO for which I intend to use WWV and WWVH as 
>> calibration sources.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Ok, this is Time Nuts. We probably have a pretty good sample of those who use 
this and that as a source of time.
We also are reasonably conscious about what we are doing. NIST’s claimed reason 
for running WWV (and WWVH) is to
distribute accurate time and frequency.

Would / does anybody on the list actually use WWV as their *primary* source of 
accurate time or accurate frequency?

Ok, so how about as a secondary source of time?

Now show of hands …. third tier backup? 

I’ll place my votes first …. rarely as a third tier backup. Why? It’s just not 
good enough any more compared to the other 
things I have easily available. 

No, I”m not debating how badly we need third or eight tier backups. The 
question is purely - what is it actually used for?

Bob

> On Aug 13, 2018, at 8:39 AM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 8/12/18 8:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick wrote:
>> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the 
>> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
> 
> 
> WWV/WWVH also provides HF propagation forecasts, severe weather warnings for 
> mariners, etc., as well as being a propagation beacon.
> 
> I don't think HF communications is completely going away - it's unique in not 
> requiring any infrastructure to achieve world-wide communications other than 
> the two endpoints of the link.
> 
> It's probably a smaller population than radio amateurs, but there are people 
> who work with HF propagation on a day to day basis. For example, if 
> Rocketlabs ever gets their act together and launches a couple more rockets, 
> I'll have a spacecraft in LEO for which I intend to use WWV and WWVH as 
> calibration sources.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[paul swed]

Hello to the group. The Chronverter is now available again. US $37.
Its from unusual electronics as was mentioned earlier in the thread.
No matter how 2019 actually goes its a good way to keep the wwvb clocks
going.
Saves me from having to create the same thing.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 8:39 AM, jimlux  wrote:

> On 8/12/18 8:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick wrote:
>
>> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the
>> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
>>
>
>
> WWV/WWVH also provides HF propagation forecasts, severe weather warnings
> for mariners, etc., as well as being a propagation beacon.
>
> I don't think HF communications is completely going away - it's unique in
> not requiring any infrastructure to achieve world-wide communications other
> than the two endpoints of the link.
>
> It's probably a smaller population than radio amateurs, but there are
> people who work with HF propagation on a day to day basis. For example, if
> Rocketlabs ever gets their act together and launches a couple more rockets,
> I'll have a spacecraft in LEO for which I intend to use WWV and WWVH as
> calibration sources.
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[jimlux]

On 8/12/18 8:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick wrote:

I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the voters 
but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.



WWV/WWVH also provides HF propagation forecasts, severe weather warnings 
for mariners, etc., as well as being a propagation beacon.


I don't think HF communications is completely going away - it's unique 
in not requiring any infrastructure to achieve world-wide communications 
other than the two endpoints of the link.


It's probably a smaller population than radio amateurs, but there are 
people who work with HF propagation on a day to day basis. For example, 
if Rocketlabs ever gets their act together and launches a couple more 
rockets, I'll have a spacecraft in LEO for which I intend to use WWV and 
WWVH as calibration sources.






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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi



> On Aug 13, 2018, at 7:24 AM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> 
> Note to all;
> 
> Be cautious about getting time of day from consumer GPS products.  All that
> I have encountered
> (so far) exhibit T.O.D. errors up to a few tenths of a second, and the
> error is not repeatable from
> session to session.  Some do have PPS outputs, which are typically claimed
> to provide usec
> level of accuracy, but most do not.

… but there *are* modules out there for not a lot of money that do indeed give
quite good PPS (and TOD) information. Picking out the good brands / models
from the junk is part of why you have lists like this one. 

> 
> I routinely use WWV to verify correct setting of my WWVB-synced watch and
> kitchen clock.  I have
> occasionally seen severe setting errors, which I attribute to attempts at
> syncing in the face of poor
> WWVB reception conditions.
> 
> My impression is that none of the time codes currently in use by broadcast
> NIST time signals
> contain forward error correction or even error detection features.  If this
> is wrong, please somebody
> correct me!
> 

I believe you will find that the “new” PSK modulation scheme on WWVB has at 
least some error detection built into it. 

> BTW, there are a fair number of Heathkit clocks in the wild which use WWV
> (as opposed to WWVB)

There aren’t a lot of those left running these days …..

Bob


> for syncing.  An old college-era housemate with whom I keep in touch owns
> and still uses at least
> one of them.
> 
> Dana
> 
> 
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 5:25 AM, Mark Spencer 
> wrote:
> 
>> I'm trying hard to think of routine users of WWV / WWVH other than amateur
>> radio operators, time nuts, and the occasional academic / scientific study
>> that uses the transmitters as a signal source.
>> 
>> Perhaps some boaters still use the time signals to set their chronometers,
>> but WWV /WWVH probably wouldn't be my first choice for that application if
>> I had access to GPS.
>> 
>> Perhaps some other users of the radio Spectrum occasionally use the
>> signals as a basic test signal ?
>> 
>> I use the time signals for my amateur radio hobby when I already have an
>> HF receiver and don't want to mess with using GPS as a time source.  I only
>> need accuracy within perhaps a third of a second so manually setting a
>> computer clock while listening to WWV works for me.
>> 
>> For my own interest I'd be curious in knowing of other routine uses of the
>> WWV / WWVH time signals.
>> 
>> 
>> Mark S
>> VE7AFZ
>> 
>> m...@alignedsolutions.com
>> 604 762 4099
>> 
>>> On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:08 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
>> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
>>> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
>> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
 
 On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
>> generally in groups here:
> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
>> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
>> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
>> and Hawaii"
 
 I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Dana Whitlow]

Note to all;

Be cautious about getting time of day from consumer GPS products.  All that
I have encountered
(so far) exhibit T.O.D. errors up to a few tenths of a second, and the
error is not repeatable from
session to session.  Some do have PPS outputs, which are typically claimed
to provide usec
level of accuracy, but most do not.

I routinely use WWV to verify correct setting of my WWVB-synced watch and
kitchen clock.  I have
 occasionally seen severe setting errors, which I attribute to attempts at
syncing in the face of poor
WWVB reception conditions.

My impression is that none of the time codes currently in use by broadcast
NIST time signals
contain forward error correction or even error detection features.  If this
is wrong, please somebody
correct me!

BTW, there are a fair number of Heathkit clocks in the wild which use WWV
(as opposed to WWVB)
for syncing.  An old college-era housemate with whom I keep in touch owns
and still uses at least
one of them.

Dana


On Mon, Aug 13, 2018 at 5:25 AM, Mark Spencer 
wrote:

> I'm trying hard to think of routine users of WWV / WWVH other than amateur
> radio operators, time nuts, and the occasional academic / scientific study
> that uses the transmitters as a signal source.
>
> Perhaps some boaters still use the time signals to set their chronometers,
> but WWV /WWVH probably wouldn't be my first choice for that application if
> I had access to GPS.
>
> Perhaps some other users of the radio Spectrum occasionally use the
> signals as a basic test signal ?
>
> I use the time signals for my amateur radio hobby when I already have an
> HF receiver and don't want to mess with using GPS as a time source.  I only
> need accuracy within perhaps a third of a second so manually setting a
> computer clock while listening to WWV works for me.
>
> For my own interest I'd be curious in knowing of other routine uses of the
> WWV / WWVH time signals.
>
>
> Mark S
> VE7AFZ
>
> m...@alignedsolutions.com
> 604 762 4099
>
> > On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:08 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> > It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
> >>> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> generally in groups here:
> >>> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> >>> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
> and Hawaii"
> >>
> >> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> >>
> >> ___
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> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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> >
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Mark Spencer]

I'm trying hard to think of routine users of WWV / WWVH other than amateur 
radio operators, time nuts, and the occasional academic / scientific study that 
uses the transmitters as a signal source.   

Perhaps some boaters still use the time signals to set their chronometers, but 
WWV /WWVH probably wouldn't be my first choice for that application if I had 
access to GPS.

Perhaps some other users of the radio Spectrum occasionally use the signals as 
a basic test signal ?

I use the time signals for my amateur radio hobby when I already have an HF 
receiver and don't want to mess with using GPS as a time source.  I only need 
accuracy within perhaps a third of a second so manually setting a computer 
clock while listening to WWV works for me.  

For my own interest I'd be curious in knowing of other routine uses of the WWV 
/ WWVH time signals.  


Mark S
VE7AFZ

m...@alignedsolutions.com
604 762 4099

> On Aug 12, 2018, at 2:08 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic 
> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage wise) 
> would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
>> 
>> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>>> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described 
>>> generally in groups here:
>>> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
>>> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement dissemination, 
>>> including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii"
>> 
>> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Mike Cook]

> Le 13 août 2018 à 11:09, Dana Whitlow  a écrit :
> 
> Craig,
> 
> The original main reason for WWVB had nothing to do with syncing our
> "atomic"
> wristwatches and clocks.  It was for keeping local frequency standards
> honest, for
> which continuous coverage throughout the day and night was desirable (if not
> always achievable).  But for that application, a one-shot daily sync was
> not really
> good enough (for most users).  Stations that used WWVB for serious purposes
> used
> outdoor electrostatically-shielded loop antennas, usually up on the roof,
> to get
> enough signal enough of the time.

 This function of disseminating a frequency reference is not mentioned at 
all in the NIST request for information document, nor in  Microsemi’s response.
I expect most calibration labs have their own 5071As  but that is not quite the 
same as having a NIST traceability. My Certificate of Calibration from SRS for 
one of my PRS10 rubidium standards indicates:
«  Stanford Research Systems, Inc. certifies that this instrument has been 
calibrated to manufacturer specifications and accuracy at an ambient 
temperature of 23° +/- using instruments and standards which are traceable to 
the National Institute of Standards and Technology. «
I expect the big labs send their instruments of to Boulder for calibration, but 
there must be some smaller outfits still phase locking off WWVB. We in Europe 
have MSF, DCF and TDF for which off air frequency references are /were 
available and which are probably still being used.
How would this frequency traceability work if WWVB/WWVH pass to a private 
enterprise?   



> 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick 
> wrote:
> 
>> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the
>> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
>> 
>> Dana, I’m puzzled by what you wrote.  I have 8 clocks and 2 wristwatches
>> that sync with WWVB.  When band conditions are poor they miss a sync for a
>> day but still they are good quartz clocks so the time readout is still OK.
>> When the band conditions are good again they sync up once per day usually
>> around 2am (according to the manual for my wristwatch).  I can easily tell
>> the sync status on all but 4 of my clocks and they sync successfully about
>> 90% of the overnight times.  My wristwatches are Citizen models that charge
>> by solar which is nice since I have a perfectly in sync watch that never
>> needs to be opened to change a battery.
>> 
>> I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter.  I think
>> that would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as
>> Florida, Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe.  I’ve found the
>> real limitation to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home.  For
>> instance if I have a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB
>> clocks will not sync successfully.
>> 
>> I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to
>> WWVB timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is.  :-)
>> 
>> Best Wishes,
>> Craig
>> KI7CRA
>> 
>>> On Aug 11, 2018, at 7:48 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like
>>> "shutting down
>>> the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the
>>> whole
>>> enchilada.
>>> 
>>> For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
>>> battery-
>>> backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation
>>> is to
>>> run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to
>>> take my watch
>>> off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
>>> shutdown comes
>>> to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at
>>> least
>>> plans for building one.
>>> 
>>> Dana
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
>>> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
>>> 
 With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA
 down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals,
>> and
 so on, is great stuff.
   On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq <
>> kb...@n1k.org>
 wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
 clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
 It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
 wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
 
 Bob
 
> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
 generally in groups here:
>> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
 request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
>> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement

Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Dana Whitlow]

Craig,

The original main reason for WWVB had nothing to do with syncing our
"atomic"
wristwatches and clocks.  It was for keeping local frequency standards
honest, for
which continuous coverage throughout the day and night was desirable (if not
always achievable).  But for that application, a one-shot daily sync was
not really
good enough (for most users).  Stations that used WWVB for serious purposes
used
outdoor electrostatically-shielded loop antennas, usually up on the roof,
to get
enough signal enough of the time.

I'm curious about your fan-related interference.  Fans of the kind used for
"cooling"
living space generally use induction motors, which per se have no mechanism
for
generating RFI.  However, more modern fans sometimes have digital control
systems, which of course do include built-in RFI generators.I wonder
which variety
you're using.

My Casio watch (module 3405) seems to sync reliably at night if held in a
favorable
orientation through the exercise, but if worn on the wrist at random but
changing
orientation, it often misses.  Fortunately mine seems to drift only about 1
sec per
month when "free running", so I now leave auto-sync turned off and just do
a single
forced sync every few weeks when I decide it's getting "too far off" based
on WWV.

Dana


On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 10:40 AM, Craig Kirkpatrick 
wrote:

> I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the
> voters but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.
>
> Dana, I’m puzzled by what you wrote.  I have 8 clocks and 2 wristwatches
> that sync with WWVB.  When band conditions are poor they miss a sync for a
> day but still they are good quartz clocks so the time readout is still OK.
> When the band conditions are good again they sync up once per day usually
> around 2am (according to the manual for my wristwatch).  I can easily tell
> the sync status on all but 4 of my clocks and they sync successfully about
> 90% of the overnight times.  My wristwatches are Citizen models that charge
> by solar which is nice since I have a perfectly in sync watch that never
> needs to be opened to change a battery.
>
> I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter.  I think
> that would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as
> Florida, Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe.  I’ve found the
> real limitation to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home.  For
> instance if I have a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB
> clocks will not sync successfully.
>
> I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to
> WWVB timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is.  :-)
>
> Best Wishes,
> Craig
> KI7CRA
>
> > On Aug 11, 2018, at 7:48 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> >
> > I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like
> > "shutting down
> > the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the
> > whole
> > enchilada.
> >
> > For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
> > battery-
> > backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation
> > is to
> > run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to
> > take my watch
> > off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
> > shutdown comes
> > to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at
> > least
> > plans for building one.
> >
> > Dana
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA
> >> down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals,
> and
> >> so on, is great stuff.
> >>On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq <
> kb...@n1k.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
> >> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> >> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
> >> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>  I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> >> generally in groups here:
>  https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> >> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
>  One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> >> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
> >> and Hawaii"
> >>>
> >>> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> >> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions 

Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[David J Taylor via time-nuts]

From: Craig Kirkpatrick

I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter.  I think 
that would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as 
Florida, Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe.  I’ve found the 
real limitation to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home.  For 
instance if I have a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB 
clocks will not sync successfully.


I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to WWVB 
timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is.  :-)


Best Wishes,
Craig
KI7CRA
===

What would be very useful would be if the design could also emulate the UK 
MSF transmissions at 60 kHz (simple on/off coding) and perhaps the DCF77 
transmissions at 77.5 kHz.


One issue (at least with the UK 198 kHz transmitter) is the unobtainability 
of spares such as the high-power valves, I understand.  You're right that 
many devices rely on these LF transmissions, but so do many FM radios rely 
on analogue transmissions which are going, if not already partially gone, in 
Europe.


Thanks,
David GM8ARV
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software written to your requirements
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 



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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Andy Backus]

WWV HF transmissions include a 100 Hz subcarrier that gives the info in cw 
format.


For generating WWVB code I would suggest simply counting seconds to yield days 
-- the WWVB code takes the day number in the year.  Leap year is easy.  Just 
look up the DST start and stop.


acb



From: time-nuts  on behalf of paul swed 

Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2018 1:47 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST

Well if the old LF and HF signals go away I am on for yet another wwvb
project and wwv. What the heck.
Creating a AM wwvb is really pretty easy and in fact I have done that.
Can't remember what code that was.
Pretty sure it was basic on SXb2. But the good news is the old BPSK code
isn't needed so it really becomes easy.
The BPSK coder was seriously complicated. (That was the cheatin dePSKr)
So it would be GPS to WWVB code. Have to think about the DST thing. Thats
always a bit messy.

Lastly while I am at it there would be a 5 and 10 MHz wwv simulator at
least ticks and minute tone. Looked at voice and thats a bit of a mess.
They seem to just say numbers. Not sure there are modules that say time
from my bit of research.
Of course have to be careful with transmission levels Looks like its
time yo look up fcc part 97.

Things to ponder.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Wes  wrote:

> Yep, just like "government shutdowns" where all non-essential people stay
> home. (I always wondered why, it they are non-essential they are on the
> payroll in the first place, but what do I know, I'm just a taxpayer.)  But
> what gets shut down first are things like National Parks, which have
> immediate effect on lots of people.
>
> What are the effects on the budget of running WWV/WWVB?  The electric bill
> I would guess.  When John Q. Public's "atomic clock" stops working, they'll
> find a way to pay the bill.
>
> Wes
>
> On 8/12/2018 11:58 AM, djl wrote:
>
>> Just a word:   When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most
>> valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc. This
>> is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .
>> Don
>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Joe Dempster]

I hope that defunding is just a ploy and things will remain on the air.  I
am concerned this is starting to sound like 2010 when DHS/USCG took eLoran
off the air in the states.  This was one of the few things that totally
dismayed me about the Obama administration.

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 2:59 PM djl  wrote:

> Just a word:   When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most
> valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc.
> This is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .
> Don
>
>
> On 2018-08-12 12:20, paul swed wrote:
> > Like all of you I have a few wwvb clocks that work pretty well here in
> > Boston.
> > Certainly have written enough wwvb stuff and created various wwvb
> > projects
> > that I will have to get back into it again.
> > I did look at the cron-verter. Have to say it has a lot of nice
> > features.
> > Unfortunately it hasn't been available for a year or so. (Getting lazy)
> > The good news is the AM modulation of wwb is very easy to create.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Dana Whitlow 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something
> >> like
> >> "shutting down
> >> the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include
> >> the
> >> whole
> >> enchilada.
> >>
> >> For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go
> >> to
> >> battery-
> >> backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the
> >> expectation
> >> is to
> >> run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having
> >> to
> >> take my watch
> >> off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
> >> shutdown comes
> >> to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or
> >> at
> >> least
> >> plans for building one.
> >>
> >> Dana
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
> >> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >  With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the
> USA
> >> > down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals,
> and
> >> > so on, is great stuff.
> >> > On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq <
> >> kb...@n1k.org>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >  Hi
> >> >
> >> > One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s
> “atomic
> >> > clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> >> > It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
> >> > wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
> >> >
> >> > Bob
> >> >
> >> > > On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
> >> > >> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> >> > generally in groups here:
> >> > >> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> >> > request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> >> > >> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> >> > dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in
> Colorado
> >> > and Hawaii"
> >> > >
> >> > > I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> >> > >
> >> > > ___
> >> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> >> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ___
> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> >> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> > and follow the instructions there.
> >> >
> >> > ___
> >> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> >> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >> > and follow the instructions there.
> >> >
> >> ___
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> >> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to
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> > and follow the instructions there.
>
> --
> Dr. Don Latham
> PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
> VOX: 406-626-4304
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Craig Kirkpatrick]

I agree with Bob that shutting down WWVB would not go over well with the voters 
but losing WWV and WWVH will mainly be noticed only by HAMs.

Dana, I’m puzzled by what you wrote.  I have 8 clocks and 2 wristwatches that 
sync with WWVB.  When band conditions are poor they miss a sync for a day but 
still they are good quartz clocks so the time readout is still OK.  When the 
band conditions are good again they sync up once per day usually around 2am 
(according to the manual for my wristwatch).  I can easily tell the sync status 
on all but 4 of my clocks and they sync successfully about 90% of the overnight 
times.  My wristwatches are Citizen models that charge by solar which is nice 
since I have a perfectly in sync watch that never needs to be opened to change 
a battery.

I do like the idea of a GPS to WWVB timecode radio transmitter.  I think that 
would sell well to folks on the fringe of coverage for WWVB such as Florida, 
Hawaii, and Alaska or other parts of the globe.  I’ve found the real limitation 
to reception of WWVB is local 60kHz noise in the home.  For instance if I have 
a fan running to cool things in my shack then my WWVB clocks will not sync 
successfully.

I hope Nick Sayer is reading this and getting the idea to make a GPS to WWVB 
timecode radio transmitter, clever gent that he is.  :-)

Best Wishes,
Craig
KI7CRA

> On Aug 11, 2018, at 7:48 PM, Dana Whitlow  wrote:
> 
> I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like
> "shutting down
> the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the
> whole
> enchilada.
> 
> For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
> battery-
> backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation
> is to
> run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to
> take my watch
> off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
> shutdown comes
> to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at
> least
> plans for building one.
> 
> Dana
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> 
>> With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA
>> down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals, and
>> so on, is great stuff.
>>On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
>> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
>> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
>> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
 I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
>> generally in groups here:
 https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
>> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
 One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
>> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
>> and Hawaii"
>>> 
>>> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[D. Resor]

I wonder if this will also have any effect on Time Service for Computers, 
Personal and Commercial.  A lot of MS Windows products check for the correct 
time using time servers access from the internet.  I'm sure this will also 
affect outdoor clock towers which also use this reference.

Am I mistaken or is WWV the reference for all things dealing with the "time 
service"?

Don Resor

-Original Message-
From: time-nuts  On Behalf Of Dana Whitlow
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2018 7:49 PM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST

I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like 
"shutting down the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to 
include the whole enchilada.

For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
battery-
backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation is to 
run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to take my 
watch off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this 
shutdown comes to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB 
converter, or at least plans for building one.

Dana




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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[paul swed]

Well if the old LF and HF signals go away I am on for yet another wwvb
project and wwv. What the heck.
Creating a AM wwvb is really pretty easy and in fact I have done that.
Can't remember what code that was.
Pretty sure it was basic on SXb2. But the good news is the old BPSK code
isn't needed so it really becomes easy.
The BPSK coder was seriously complicated. (That was the cheatin dePSKr)
So it would be GPS to WWVB code. Have to think about the DST thing. Thats
always a bit messy.

Lastly while I am at it there would be a 5 and 10 MHz wwv simulator at
least ticks and minute tone. Looked at voice and thats a bit of a mess.
They seem to just say numbers. Not sure there are modules that say time
from my bit of research.
Of course have to be careful with transmission levels Looks like its
time yo look up fcc part 97.

Things to ponder.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sun, Aug 12, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Wes  wrote:

> Yep, just like "government shutdowns" where all non-essential people stay
> home. (I always wondered why, it they are non-essential they are on the
> payroll in the first place, but what do I know, I'm just a taxpayer.)  But
> what gets shut down first are things like National Parks, which have
> immediate effect on lots of people.
>
> What are the effects on the budget of running WWV/WWVB?  The electric bill
> I would guess.  When John Q. Public's "atomic clock" stops working, they'll
> find a way to pay the bill.
>
> Wes
>
> On 8/12/2018 11:58 AM, djl wrote:
>
>> Just a word:   When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most
>> valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc. This
>> is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .
>> Don
>>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Wes]

Yep, just like "government shutdowns" where all non-essential people stay home. 
(I always wondered why, it they are non-essential they are on the payroll in the 
first place, but what do I know, I'm just a taxpayer.)  But what gets shut down 
first are things like National Parks, which have immediate effect on lots of people.


What are the effects on the budget of running WWV/WWVB?  The electric bill I 
would guess.  When John Q. Public's "atomic clock" stops working, they'll find a 
way to pay the bill.


Wes

On 8/12/2018 11:58 AM, djl wrote:
Just a word:   When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most 
valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc. This is 
a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .
Don 



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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[djl]

Just a word:   When budget cuts are announced, the agencies put the most 
valued "stuff" to be cut first, such as the Washington monument, etc. 
This is a recognized ploy. When the dust settles, all may be well. . .

Don


On 2018-08-12 12:20, paul swed wrote:

Like all of you I have a few wwvb clocks that work pretty well here in
Boston.
Certainly have written enough wwvb stuff and created various wwvb 
projects

that I will have to get back into it again.
I did look at the cron-verter. Have to say it has a lot of nice 
features.

Unfortunately it hasn't been available for a year or so. (Getting lazy)
The good news is the AM modulation of wwb is very easy to create.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Dana Whitlow 
wrote:

I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something 
like

"shutting down
the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include 
the

whole
enchilada.

For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go 
to

battery-
backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the 
expectation

is to
run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having 
to

take my watch
off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
shutdown comes
to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or 
at

least
plans for building one.

Dana


On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

>  With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA
> down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals, and
> so on, is great stuff.
> On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq <
kb...@n1k.org>
> wrote:
>
>  Hi
>
> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> >
> > On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
> >> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> generally in groups here:
> >> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> >> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
> and Hawaii"
> >
> > I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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PO Box 404, Frenchtown, MT, 59834
VOX: 406-626-4304


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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Dana Whitlow]

I fear the worst.  The line in the website simply stated something like
"shutting down
the transmitters in Colorado and Hawaii", which would seem to include the
whole
enchilada.

For the wall clocks, GPS should work well if people are willing to go to
battery-
backed AC power.  But not so good for wristwatches, where the expectation
is to
run at uW power levels.  I for one would be very irritated at having to
take my watch
off my wrist and put it on a charging stand every night.  So if this
shutdown comes
to pass, I'll be looking for an inexpensive GPS-to-WWVB converter, or at
least
plans for building one.

Dana


On Sat, Aug 11, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Bob Albert via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

>  With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA
> down technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals, and
> so on, is great stuff.
> On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq 
> wrote:
>
>  Hi
>
> One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic
> clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
> It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage
> wise) would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> >
> > On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
> >> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> generally in groups here:
> >> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> >> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> dissemination, including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado
> and Hawaii"
> >
> > I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Bob Albert via time-nuts]

 With any luck, the current administration will successfully push the USA down 
technically.  Denying global warming, shutting off time signals, and so on, is 
great stuff.
On Saturday, August 11, 2018, 6:10:12 PM PDT, Bob kb8tq  
wrote:  
 
 Hi

One would *guess* that stopping WWVB (and killing mom and pop’s “atomic 
clocks”) would not be a reasonable thing to do.
It gets a lot of voters mad. I doubt that very many voters (percentage wise) 
would notice WWV and WWVH going away ….

Bob

> On Aug 11, 2018, at 9:00 PM, jimlux  wrote:
> 
> On 8/10/18 12:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse wrote:
>> I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described generally 
>> in groups here:
>> https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
>> One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement dissemination, 
>> including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii"
> 
> I wonder if that's WWVB, or WWV & WWVH
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Tom Van Baak]

> I wonder if anybody will market a GPS-to-WWVB translator?
> Dana

You can find lots of these projects on the web: in the time-nuts archives, 
eevblog, hackaday, or sometimes completed multi-band kits (WWVB / DCF77 / JJY) 
on eBay.

Search for a couple of words like signal wwvb simulator generator translator 
emulator transmitter

An example of a well engineered product (no longer available?) is: 
https://unusualelectronics.co.uk/products/chronvertor/

An example of a quick hack (open source) is: 
https://hackaday.com/2014/03/22/build-your-own-radio-clock-transmitter/

There are dozens more.

/tvb


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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Jwahar Bammi via time-nuts]

Andy Backus,
Would love to see your microwatt transmitter design, per chance have you posted 
it anywhere.

cheers,
bammi



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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[paul swed]

This one almost slipped by me.
I see NIST seems to have taken down the link or details.
So they want to shut down the services. I suppose that makes some sense.
But would like to see what that means. LF and HF...
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 10:56 PM, Steven Sommars 
wrote:

> I found the public comments from Microsemi
> <https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2017/
> 05/09/NIST-RFI-Internet-Time-Service-response.pdf>,
> but couldn't locate my response.   At one time the full set of RFI public
> responses was on-line.
>
> The NIST 60 kHz time service is widely used by inexpensive clocks, but I
> find little use by public NTP servers.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Larry Sampas 
> wrote:
>
> > My favorite RFI (Request for Information):
> > https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity=form=
> > 4f5c8b176af03d89abb1a318624c944b=core&_cview=0
> >
> > The public comments should be around someplace.
> >
> > Larry Sampas
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 5:05 PM, Andy Backus 
> wrote:
> >
> > > I have a very simple circuit for a (microwatt) 60 kHz transmitter that
> > > takes a digital input (only needs someone to calculate out the WWVB
> code
> > > from a GPS clock).  The biggest problem I find with my WWVB clocks is
> > > getting a good signal, which is highly depend on location in the house
> > and
> > > orientation of the device's antenna.  So I have one WWVB receiver in a
> > good
> > > place and key my little transmitter as a "translator" elsewhere in the
> > > house.
> > >
> > >
> > > Andy Backus
> > >
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: time-nuts  on behalf of Dana
> > > Whitlow 
> > > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 1:34 PM
> > > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST
> > >
> > > I wonder if anybody will market a GPS-to-WWVB translator?
> > >
> > > Dana
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse <
> lajeune...@mail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> > > > generally in groups here:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> > > > request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> > > >
> > > > One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> > > dissemination,
> > > > including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii"
> > > >
> > > > Looks like some of your friends might be looking for work. Not good.
> > > >
> > > > Bob L.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 at 3:11 PM
> > > > > From: "Magnus Danielson" 
> > > > > To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > > > Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
> > > > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST
> > > > >
> > > > > Bert,
> > > > >
> > > > > The closes I come is this, burried in the line of Funamental
> > > > Measurements:
> > > > > https://www.nist.gov/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-
> > > > summary/budget-tables
> > > > >
> > > > > It doesn't get more detailed than that.
> > > > >
> > > > > The T work is relatively small group in the big NIST.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Magnus
> > > > >
> > > > > On 08/10/2018 08:29 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > NIST total budget for 2017 was close to 965 Million, I was curios
> > > > trying to find out what the Time and Frequency Division  portion was.
> > No
> > > > Luck. Does any one know?Thanks   Bert Kehren
> > > > > > ___
> > > > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > > > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ___
> > > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> &g

Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Steven Sommars]

I found the public comments from Microsemi
<https://www.nist.gov/sites/default/files/documents/2017/05/09/NIST-RFI-Internet-Time-Service-response.pdf>,
but couldn't locate my response.   At one time the full set of RFI public
responses was on-line.

The NIST 60 kHz time service is widely used by inexpensive clocks, but I
find little use by public NTP servers.




On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Larry Sampas  wrote:

> My favorite RFI (Request for Information):
> https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity=form=
> 4f5c8b176af03d89abb1a318624c944b=core&_cview=0
>
> The public comments should be around someplace.
>
> Larry Sampas
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 5:05 PM, Andy Backus  wrote:
>
> > I have a very simple circuit for a (microwatt) 60 kHz transmitter that
> > takes a digital input (only needs someone to calculate out the WWVB code
> > from a GPS clock).  The biggest problem I find with my WWVB clocks is
> > getting a good signal, which is highly depend on location in the house
> and
> > orientation of the device's antenna.  So I have one WWVB receiver in a
> good
> > place and key my little transmitter as a "translator" elsewhere in the
> > house.
> >
> >
> > Andy Backus
> >
> >
> > 
> > From: time-nuts  on behalf of Dana
> > Whitlow 
> > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 1:34 PM
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST
> >
> > I wonder if anybody will market a GPS-to-WWVB translator?
> >
> > Dana
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> > > generally in groups here:
> > >
> > > https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> > > request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> > >
> > > One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> > dissemination,
> > > including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii"
> > >
> > > Looks like some of your friends might be looking for work. Not good.
> > >
> > > Bob L.
> > >
> > >
> > > > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 at 3:11 PM
> > > > From: "Magnus Danielson" 
> > > > To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > > Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
> > > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST
> > > >
> > > > Bert,
> > > >
> > > > The closes I come is this, burried in the line of Funamental
> > > Measurements:
> > > > https://www.nist.gov/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-
> > > summary/budget-tables
> > > >
> > > > It doesn't get more detailed than that.
> > > >
> > > > The T work is relatively small group in the big NIST.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > Magnus
> > > >
> > > > On 08/10/2018 08:29 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > NIST total budget for 2017 was close to 965 Million, I was curios
> > > trying to find out what the Time and Frequency Division  portion was.
> No
> > > Luck. Does any one know?Thanks   Bert Kehren
> > > > > ___
> > > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
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> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
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> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Larry Sampas]

My favorite RFI (Request for Information):
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity=form=4f5c8b176af03d89abb1a318624c944b=core&_cview=0

The public comments should be around someplace.

Larry Sampas

On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 5:05 PM, Andy Backus  wrote:

> I have a very simple circuit for a (microwatt) 60 kHz transmitter that
> takes a digital input (only needs someone to calculate out the WWVB code
> from a GPS clock).  The biggest problem I find with my WWVB clocks is
> getting a good signal, which is highly depend on location in the house and
> orientation of the device's antenna.  So I have one WWVB receiver in a good
> place and key my little transmitter as a "translator" elsewhere in the
> house.
>
>
> Andy Backus
>
>
> 
> From: time-nuts  on behalf of Dana
> Whitlow 
> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 1:34 PM
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST
>
> I wonder if anybody will market a GPS-to-WWVB translator?
>
> Dana
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 2:45 PM, Robert LaJeunesse 
> wrote:
>
> > I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described
> > generally in groups here:
> >
> > https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-
> > request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and
> >
> > One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement
> dissemination,
> > including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii"
> >
> > Looks like some of your friends might be looking for work. Not good.
> >
> > Bob L.
> >
> >
> > > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 at 3:11 PM
> > > From: "Magnus Danielson" 
> > > To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
> > > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST
> > >
> > > Bert,
> > >
> > > The closes I come is this, burried in the line of Funamental
> > Measurements:
> > > https://www.nist.gov/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-
> > summary/budget-tables
> > >
> > > It doesn't get more detailed than that.
> > >
> > > The T work is relatively small group in the big NIST.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Magnus
> > >
> > > On 08/10/2018 08:29 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote:
> > > >
> > > > NIST total budget for 2017 was close to 965 Million, I was curios
> > trying to find out what the Time and Frequency Division  portion was. No
> > Luck. Does any one know?Thanks   Bert Kehren
> > > > ___
> > > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > > and follow the instructions there.
> > > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> > >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> > listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to http://lists.febo.com/mailman/
> listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[ewkehren via time-nuts]

Thank you Magnus I focused on 2017 because of the changes but do not understand 
because it is a divisionBert

Sent from my Galaxy Tab® A
 Original message From: Magnus Danielson 
 Date: 8/10/18  3:11 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: 
time-nuts@lists.febo.com Cc: mag...@rubidium.se Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST 
Bert,

The closes I come is this, burried in the line of Funamental Measurements:
https://www.nist.gov/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/budget-tables

It doesn't get more detailed than that.

The T work is relatively small group in the big NIST.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 08/10/2018 08:29 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote:
>  
> NIST total budget for 2017 was close to 965 Million, I was curios trying to 
> find out what the Time and Frequency Division  portion was. No Luck. Does any 
> one know?Thanks   Bert Kehren
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
> 

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Robert LaJeunesse]

I'd say it does get more detailed, with the $49M in cuts described generally in 
groups here:

https://www.nist.gov/director/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/fundamental-measurement-quantum-science-and

One item: "-$6.3 million supporting fundamental measurement dissemination, 
including the shutdown of NIST radio stations in Colorado and Hawaii"

Looks like some of your friends might be looking for work. Not good.

Bob L.


> Sent: Friday, August 10, 2018 at 3:11 PM
> From: "Magnus Danielson" 
> To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> Cc: mag...@rubidium.se
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] NIST
>
> Bert,
> 
> The closes I come is this, burried in the line of Funamental Measurements:
> https://www.nist.gov/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/budget-tables
> 
> It doesn't get more detailed than that.
> 
> The T work is relatively small group in the big NIST.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 08/10/2018 08:29 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote:
> >  
> > NIST total budget for 2017 was close to 965 Million, I was curios trying to 
> > find out what the Time and Frequency Division  portion was. No Luck. Does 
> > any one know?Thanks   Bert Kehren
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> > 
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>

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Re: [time-nuts] NIST

[Magnus Danielson]

Bert,

The closes I come is this, burried in the line of Funamental Measurements:
https://www.nist.gov/fy-2019-presidential-budget-request-summary/budget-tables

It doesn't get more detailed than that.

The T work is relatively small group in the big NIST.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 08/10/2018 08:29 PM, ew via time-nuts wrote:
>  
> NIST total budget for 2017 was close to 965 Million, I was curios trying to 
> find out what the Time and Frequency Division  portion was. No Luck. Does any 
> one know?Thanks   Bert Kehren
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
> 

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[time-nuts] NIST

[ew via time-nuts]

 
NIST total budget for 2017 was close to 965 Million, I was curios trying to 
find out what the Time and Frequency Division  portion was. No Luck. Does any 
one know?Thanks   Bert Kehren
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[time-nuts] NIST Tour and Time & Frequency Seminar

[John Sloan]

This summer, somewhat coincidentally, I got to take a tour of some of the NIST 
Time and Frequency Division, rode my motorcycle up to Fort Collins to see the 
WWVB antennas, and attended the NIST 43rd Annual Time & Frequency Seminar. I 
wrote a couple of blog articles with my notes and photographs. Could be someone 
here will find these interesting.

https://coverclock.blogspot.com/2018/05/time-is-precious.html

https://coverclock.blogspot.com/2018/06/wibbley-wobbley-timey-wimey.html

--
J. L. SloanDigital Aggregates Corp.
+1 303 940 9064 (O)3440 Youngfield St. #209
+1 303 489 5178 (M)Wheat Ridge CO 80033 USA
jsl...@diag.comhttp://www.diag.com 
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