[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
Hi Norman, Contact sales at nelfc.com Regards, Jorge. On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 4:03 AM Norman Reitz via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote: > Hi, everyone, > I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) > and 25 Mhz sine wave output. I can only find changes below my quality > requirements for phase noise at Mouser or Digikey. E.g. a 10Mhz should be > better than -120dbc @ 1Hz (-140dbc @ 10Hz) - a 25mHz better than -115 > dbc@10Hz.I want to use them in high quality audio application. > Unfortunately, the minimum order quantities of the providers that I have > found are not available for private customers - or you only sell with proof > of use or a trade license. Since i dont want to start a business in space > or defence-business, this is a problem for me. Do you have a tip or contact > person who also does business with non-lucrative end customers? I am > already aware that the quality of OCXO cannot be obtained for 100 bucks. > best regards > Norman > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send > an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
I have had some good success working with Connor-Winfield for short run, tighter spec parts as a private individual under the sales column of "samples". Just tell them what you want to do, and be upfront about your actual quantities, and don't be in a rush - it's not good Karma leading a sales person on with the idea of a big future sale only to tell them you're done with the handful you already have. It wastes their time and energy. I told CW I'd take what I could get to build the parts, not rejecting scrap crystal rather than demanding virgin before they started and told them that I could wait until they had time in their process rather than forcing it through. Nothing with a dual frequency output from a monolithic component, but for the application (a custom board for an RPi CM4 with coaxial S/PDIF audio out) I GPS disciplined the audio master clock (24.567MHz), and then align the system clocks to that oscillator so that the PLLs stay within 1/3U and don't have to resync in the MCU or other bus components (54MHz for core clock, 25MHz for network clock), and as a result buffers never filled up or ran dry. My AP2722 has about an equivalent clock quality (little better, but tired), so I am in a place where some of the digital artifacts measured are going to be a fight between the noise floor of the test device and the test equipment. -TS On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:54 PM wrote: > Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:26:26 + (UTC) > From: Norman Reitz > Subject: [time-nuts] High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers > To: Discussion of Precise Time and Frequency Measurement > > Message-ID: <1329853732.5157697.1641803186...@mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Hi, everyone, > I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) > and 25 Mhz sine wave output. I can only find changes below my quality > requirements for phase noise at Mouser or Digikey. E.g. a 10Mhz should be > better than -120dbc @ 1Hz (-140dbc @ 10Hz) - a 25mHz better than -115 > dbc@10Hz.I want to use them in high quality audio application. > Unfortunately, the minimum order quantities of the providers that I have > found are not available for private customers - or you only sell with proof > of use or a trade license. Since i dont want to start a business in space > or defence-business, this is a problem for me. Do you have a tip or contact > person who also does business with non-lucrative end customers? I am > already aware that the quality of OCXO cannot be obtained for 100 bucks. > best regards > Norman > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
Am 10.01.2022 um 20:05 schrieb Attila Kinali: On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:19:09 +0100 Stefan Heinzmann wrote: Yet you mention phase noise specs very close to the carrier (so close that any artifacts are bound to mix into the subsonic range!), A word of caution here: Human hearing is very very sensitive to some things. One of those is two-tone discrimination. We can tell two simultaneous tones appart quite easily, even if they are very close, given they are at about the same loudness. 10Hz difference is nothing and everyone can do that, even without training. Only once you get to around 1Hz difference, will you need to get a musician or someone with an equally trained ear. And it isn't the limit yet of what we found that people, with training, can hear. When two tones with approximately the same level and a frequency difference of 1 Hz mix, you get a flanging effect due to the shifting phase relationship, and that tends to be very obvious. No need for a trained ear there. But that's not what we're about here. Human hearing definitely has its particular sensitivities, but that only goes to show that you can't make sweeping generalizations that can be expressed in terms of simple numbers like the phase noise 1 Hz from the carrier. It is dependent on the scenario, and one of the questions that needed asking, and was asked, is: What does the oscillator actually drive, i.e. feed into? There simply isn't any way to come up with meaningful figures if you don't have a very clear answer to that question. And the original poster didn't offer any. Furthermore, the ear's properties, and those of the entire auditory system, have been studied in considerable detail. It isn't a big mystery anymore what we are capable of hearing, and what we almost certainly aren't. This includes the effect of phase jitter/noise. The reason why I am sceptical of the phase noise specs is because artifacts would end up at much lower amplitudes. Which means the signal that causes the artifact would be so much louder than the artifact, that it would mask the artifact. Yes, masking is one reason why you wouldn't hear artifacts resulting from phase noise close to the carrier. But the specs offered by the original poster are so "aggressive" that you wouldn't even need to take masking into account for dismissing audible effects as implausible. Cheers Stefan ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
FYI, I contacted MTI a few years ago for some replacement 10MHz OCXO, and
their minimum buy was 5 pcs.
--Andrew
Andrew E. Kalman, Ph.D.
On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 12:46 PM Bob kb8tq wrote:
> Hi
>
> Ok, well, the boys at Rakon / CEPE will be happy to sell you a ~ $30,000
> OCXO
> with a lead time of about 2 years. I suspect you will have to pay at time
> of order
> unless you are a well known business …. Unlike a lot of this and that you
> see
> tossed around for specs, I’m quite sure they *do* meet their published
> numbers.
>
> The only thing I’m not 100% sure of is if the minimum order quantity is
> 1,3,5 or
> 10. If cost is no object, that should not really matter.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 10, 2022, at 3:06 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Bob kb8tq writes:
> >
> >> My only concern here is that before one goes of and spends 5,10, or
> >> 20 thousand dollars on an OCXO, [...]
> >
> > Bob, you are kind of missing the point here...
> >
> > The entire point of Audio-Homoepathy is to spend excessive amounts
> > of money, so that you can brag about how rich you are, and how
> > super-human your refined sense of hearing is, all without wasting
> > any time or effort on it.
> >
> > How else can there be a market for $3000 CAT-6 ethernet cables ?
> >
> > It is Audio-Homoepathy, because the crucial feature is "orders of
> magnitude".
> >
> > They do not buy a slightly expensive ethernet cable, they buy one
> > which cost several orders of magnitude more than what it is worth,
> > so that nobody can doubt that money is no issue - and thereby
> > make the money the only real point.
> >
> > I know several people who are quite comfortable parting these
> > newly-rich from their money, and I cannot really fault them...
> >
> > One of those companies have a business model where they hand-build
> > quite competent amplifiers using outrageous raw materials and hawk
> > them at insane prices using industry-strength flim-flam.
> >
> > When I say "indystry-strength flim-flam" I mean it.
> >
> > At one time they had a role of teflon foil stored next to a resarch
> > nuclear reactor for some weeks, so that the "neutrons could equalize
> > the the tension in the micro-grid structure" before it got rolled
> > into capacitors with a gold foil with similar super-natural properties.
> >
> > Often the invariably "very serious buyer" will persuade them, in
> > return for a stiff compensation, to never build any more, and refuse
> > to ever talk abut it, so he can (also) brag about having the only
> > one ever made, and make up some flim-flam about why that is so
> > ("... but that reactor is closed now, and the guy who knew how to
> > reorient the rolls is dead.")
> >
> > Then they rinse & repeat, this time with capacitors wound by virgins
> > from some tropical island or whatever.
> >
> > The fact that the socalled "NFT" market has negatively impacted the
> > "high end audio" market recently tells you everything you need to
> > know about both of them.
> >
> > So the question we are really being asked here, is what which
> > OCXO can be flim-flam'ed the most, when it becomes another dose
> > of audio-homoepathy.
> >
> > Poul-Henning
> >
> > --
> > Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> > p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> > FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> > Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by
> incompetence.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send
> an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an
email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
Hi
Ok, well, the boys at Rakon / CEPE will be happy to sell you a ~ $30,000 OCXO
with a lead time of about 2 years. I suspect you will have to pay at time of
order
unless you are a well known business …. Unlike a lot of this and that you see
tossed around for specs, I’m quite sure they *do* meet their published numbers.
The only thing I’m not 100% sure of is if the minimum order quantity is 1,3,5 or
10. If cost is no object, that should not really matter.
Bob
> On Jan 10, 2022, at 3:06 PM, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>
>
> Bob kb8tq writes:
>
>> My only concern here is that before one goes of and spends 5,10, or
>> 20 thousand dollars on an OCXO, [...]
>
> Bob, you are kind of missing the point here...
>
> The entire point of Audio-Homoepathy is to spend excessive amounts
> of money, so that you can brag about how rich you are, and how
> super-human your refined sense of hearing is, all without wasting
> any time or effort on it.
>
> How else can there be a market for $3000 CAT-6 ethernet cables ?
>
> It is Audio-Homoepathy, because the crucial feature is "orders of magnitude".
>
> They do not buy a slightly expensive ethernet cable, they buy one
> which cost several orders of magnitude more than what it is worth,
> so that nobody can doubt that money is no issue - and thereby
> make the money the only real point.
>
> I know several people who are quite comfortable parting these
> newly-rich from their money, and I cannot really fault them...
>
> One of those companies have a business model where they hand-build
> quite competent amplifiers using outrageous raw materials and hawk
> them at insane prices using industry-strength flim-flam.
>
> When I say "indystry-strength flim-flam" I mean it.
>
> At one time they had a role of teflon foil stored next to a resarch
> nuclear reactor for some weeks, so that the "neutrons could equalize
> the the tension in the micro-grid structure" before it got rolled
> into capacitors with a gold foil with similar super-natural properties.
>
> Often the invariably "very serious buyer" will persuade them, in
> return for a stiff compensation, to never build any more, and refuse
> to ever talk abut it, so he can (also) brag about having the only
> one ever made, and make up some flim-flam about why that is so
> ("... but that reactor is closed now, and the guy who knew how to
> reorient the rolls is dead.")
>
> Then they rinse & repeat, this time with capacitors wound by virgins
> from some tropical island or whatever.
>
> The fact that the socalled "NFT" market has negatively impacted the
> "high end audio" market recently tells you everything you need to
> know about both of them.
>
> So the question we are really being asked here, is what which
> OCXO can be flim-flam'ed the most, when it becomes another dose
> of audio-homoepathy.
>
> Poul-Henning
>
> --
> Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an
email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
Bob kb8tq writes:
> My only concern here is that before one goes of and spends 5,10, or
> 20 thousand dollars on an OCXO, [...]
Bob, you are kind of missing the point here...
The entire point of Audio-Homoepathy is to spend excessive amounts
of money, so that you can brag about how rich you are, and how
super-human your refined sense of hearing is, all without wasting
any time or effort on it.
How else can there be a market for $3000 CAT-6 ethernet cables ?
It is Audio-Homoepathy, because the crucial feature is "orders of magnitude".
They do not buy a slightly expensive ethernet cable, they buy one
which cost several orders of magnitude more than what it is worth,
so that nobody can doubt that money is no issue - and thereby
make the money the only real point.
I know several people who are quite comfortable parting these
newly-rich from their money, and I cannot really fault them...
One of those companies have a business model where they hand-build
quite competent amplifiers using outrageous raw materials and hawk
them at insane prices using industry-strength flim-flam.
When I say "indystry-strength flim-flam" I mean it.
At one time they had a role of teflon foil stored next to a resarch
nuclear reactor for some weeks, so that the "neutrons could equalize
the the tension in the micro-grid structure" before it got rolled
into capacitors with a gold foil with similar super-natural properties.
Often the invariably "very serious buyer" will persuade them, in
return for a stiff compensation, to never build any more, and refuse
to ever talk abut it, so he can (also) brag about having the only
one ever made, and make up some flim-flam about why that is so
("... but that reactor is closed now, and the guy who knew how to
reorient the rolls is dead.")
Then they rinse & repeat, this time with capacitors wound by virgins
from some tropical island or whatever.
The fact that the socalled "NFT" market has negatively impacted the
"high end audio" market recently tells you everything you need to
know about both of them.
So the question we are really being asked here, is what which
OCXO can be flim-flam'ed the most, when it becomes another dose
of audio-homoepathy.
Poul-Henning
--
Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
___
time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an
email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com
To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
Hi As noted in those app notes, there is a lot more to what goes on with an ADC than a single spot noise spec would cover. Those grubby details do indeed impact what sort of signal source makes sense and how it limits system performance. Sine to square conversion is always a bit messy. It is unlikely one will find a < -120 dbc / Hz @ 1 Hz 10 MHz OCXO with a square wave output. Like it or not, we live in a digital world. Simply converting the sine to square and preserving that sort of noise level is going to be a challenge. My only concern here is that before one goes of and spends 5,10, or 20 thousand dollars on an OCXO, some of these details get talked through. Also doing this sort of design without a bench set up to measure these noise levels accurately is very risky. When you get to these levels it becomes a “measure everything” sort of process. How good *is* an OCXO spec’d at < -120 dbc likely to need to be? If it’s a production part, they should be coming in at -123 to -126 to make it a buildable spec. Any closer than that and yield goes to zero when this or that very minor issue comes up. We love to look at plots showing 120.01 dbc and say “that does it”. In a production environment, not so much. You need some margin. If you can’t do a design that has some margin, then it becomes a selection process. You build a thousand and test them all. Out come three pieces. The cost of testing the other 997 all has to go into the price of those three. If there is no market for the other 997, then the cost of throwing them away also gets loaded into the 3 good ones. If it takes two years to find those three, the delivery will likely be overdue …. When you do find the magic 3, what happens if you wait a week / month and retest them? Hmmm ….. maybe we shouldn’t have done that …. yikes …. Getting accurate repeatable data at 1Hz offset is a very long and drawn out process. Again a reason for needing that margin ….. Bob > On Jan 10, 2022, at 1:19 PM, Lux, Jim wrote: > > On 1/10/22 9:56 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: >> Hi >> >> An equally important part of this: >> >> What are you driving with this OCXO and what is it’s measured noise floor >> at 1 Hz (or 10 Hz or what ever ….). In some cases a “crazy” OCXO is actually >> quieter than the device it is driving. That means that the last 5 or 10 db >> in phase >> noise improvement really has zero impact on the system performance. I’ve run >> into this a *lot* of times over the years. >> >> Bob > > This comes up a lot with ADCs.. Wideband driver amplifiers on the clock > inputs may put more noise on the digitized signal. > > > An-756 from Analog Devices > > Sampled Systems and the Effects of Clock Phase Noise and Jitter > > > https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/AN-756.pdf > > and > Clocking the RF ADC: Should you worry about jitter or phase noise? > > https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt705/slyt705.pdf > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an > email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 19:19:09 +0100 Stefan Heinzmann wrote: > Yet you mention phase noise specs very close to the carrier (so close > that any artifacts are bound to mix into the subsonic range!), A word of caution here: Human hearing is very very sensitive to some things. One of those is two-tone discrimination. We can tell two simultaneous tones appart quite easily, even if they are very close, given they are at about the same loudness. 10Hz difference is nothing and everyone can do that, even without training. Only once you get to around 1Hz difference, will you need to get a musician or someone with an equally trained ear. And it isn't the limit yet of what we found that people, with training, can hear. The reason why I am sceptical of the phase noise specs is because artifacts would end up at much lower amplitudes. Which means the signal that causes the artifact would be so much louder than the artifact, that it would mask the artifact. Attila Kinali -- In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it. In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it. -- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
On 1/10/22 9:56 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote: Hi An equally important part of this: What are you driving with this OCXO and what is it’s measured noise floor at 1 Hz (or 10 Hz or what ever ….). In some cases a “crazy” OCXO is actually quieter than the device it is driving. That means that the last 5 or 10 db in phase noise improvement really has zero impact on the system performance. I’ve run into this a *lot* of times over the years. Bob This comes up a lot with ADCs.. Wideband driver amplifiers on the clock inputs may put more noise on the digitized signal. An-756 from Analog Devices Sampled Systems and the Effects of Clock Phase Noise and Jitter https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/AN-756.pdf and Clocking the RF ADC: Should you worry about jitter or phase noise? https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt705/slyt705.pdf ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
Hi Norman, I was hoping for an answer that was more quantitative. We're engineers, right? For us, the question is not so much "whether?" but "how much?", and particularly "how much do I need for how much of an effect?". I am especially skeptical of your assertions because you don't seem to address at all how the frequency spectrum of the phase noise impacts the effect. If phase noise does have an effect, I would expect to see a strong dependency here, and Attila has hinted at the reason why this is. Yet you mention phase noise specs very close to the carrier (so close that any artifacts are bound to mix into the subsonic range!), which by all educated reasoning should be the least relevant. So, again, what "hard facts and numbers" do you have available that would allow us to estimate how much degradation is to be expected from a certain performance level of the oscillator, and in what application? And, please, don't assume we're rookies here! The hint that the power supply can be important is quite unnecessary and can very easily be interpreted as offensive. This is not an audiophile mailing list! Cheers Stefan P.S.: By the way, having brought up the topic, you could bolster your reputation by showing how phase noise relates to bit error rate (quantitatively!). Am 10.01.2022 um 18:07 schrieb Norman Reitz via time-nuts: Hi Stefan, Bernd said it allready. If you once notice the result of a "better" clock with lower phase noise, you dont want to miss it anymore. Even if there is a lot of vodoo and pseudo-sciences in the audio sector - and audio-nuts can talk hours about things no scientist ever heard about. But the improvement of phase noise is not an imagination. We are not talking about making something just "work". In worst case, phase noise can lead to bit errors. better/lower phase noise clocks will produce a better musical flow, better dynamics, better representation of details and details that were notbeeing noticed before. And don't forget - the quality of the power supply is not entirely unimportant ;-) kind regards Norman Am Montag, 10. Januar 2022, 15:52:59 MEZ hat Stefan Heinzmann Folgendes geschrieben: I'm curious, too, what kind of audio application requires this level of phase noise performance, and why. Cheers Stefan Am 10.01.2022 um 12:35 schrieb Attila Kinali: On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:26:26 + (UTC) Norman Reitz via time-nuts wrote: I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) and 25 Mhz sine wave output. Try contacting Bernd Neubig at Axtal. He is a fellow time-nut and likely to be open to supply you with what you need. That said, are yo sure you need such stringend phase noise requirements? It's audio. Nobody is going to hear whether the noise is -60dBc or -80dBc @ 1Hz, much less -120dBc. As you have noticed, what you want is not readily available. There are only a handful OCXO available that reach that level. One of them is the famous Oscilloquartz 8607 and its successor the Rakon HSO13/HSO14. But be prepared to pay the price of a small car for each of them. And there is the NEL ULPN OCXO 1714a, but I don't know how much that one costs. Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
Hi An equally important part of this: What are you driving with this OCXO and what is it’s measured noise floor at 1 Hz (or 10 Hz or what ever ….). In some cases a “crazy” OCXO is actually quieter than the device it is driving. That means that the last 5 or 10 db in phase noise improvement really has zero impact on the system performance. I’ve run into this a *lot* of times over the years. Bob > On Jan 10, 2022, at 12:07 PM, Norman Reitz via time-nuts > wrote: > > Hi Stefan, > Bernd said it allready. If you once notice the result of a "better" clock > with lower phase noise, you dont want to miss it anymore. Even if there is a > lot of vodoo and pseudo-sciences in the audio sector - and audio-nuts can > talk hours about things no scientist ever heard about. But the improvement > of phase noise is not an imagination. We are not talking about making > something just "work". > In worst case, phase noise can lead to bit errors. better/lower phase noise > clocks will produce a better musical flow, better dynamics, better > representation of details and details that were notbeeing noticed before. And > don't forget - the quality of the power supply is not entirely unimportant ;-) > kind regards > Norman >Am Montag, 10. Januar 2022, 15:52:59 MEZ hat Stefan Heinzmann > Folgendes geschrieben: > > I'm curious, too, what kind of audio application requires this level of > phase noise performance, and why. > > Cheers > Stefan > > Am 10.01.2022 um 12:35 schrieb Attila Kinali: >> On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:26:26 + (UTC) >> Norman Reitz via time-nuts wrote: >> >>> I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) >>> and 25 Mhz sine wave output. >> >> Try contacting Bernd Neubig at Axtal. He is a fellow time-nut and likely to >> be >> open to supply you with what you need. >> >> That said, are yo sure you need such stringend phase noise requirements? >> It's audio. Nobody is going to hear whether the noise is -60dBc or -80dBc @ >> 1Hz, >> much less -120dBc. As you have noticed, what you want is not readily >> available. >> There are only a handful OCXO available that reach that level. One of them is >> the famous Oscilloquartz 8607 and its successor the Rakon HSO13/HSO14. But >> be prepared >> to pay the price of a small car for each of them. And there is the NEL ULPN >> OCXO 1714a, >> but I don't know how much that one costs. >> >> >> Attila Kinali >> > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an > email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an > email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
Hi Stefan, Bernd said it allready. If you once notice the result of a "better" clock with lower phase noise, you dont want to miss it anymore. Even if there is a lot of vodoo and pseudo-sciences in the audio sector - and audio-nuts can talk hours about things no scientist ever heard about. But the improvement of phase noise is not an imagination. We are not talking about making something just "work". In worst case, phase noise can lead to bit errors. better/lower phase noise clocks will produce a better musical flow, better dynamics, better representation of details and details that were notbeeing noticed before. And don't forget - the quality of the power supply is not entirely unimportant ;-) kind regards Norman Am Montag, 10. Januar 2022, 15:52:59 MEZ hat Stefan Heinzmann Folgendes geschrieben: I'm curious, too, what kind of audio application requires this level of phase noise performance, and why. Cheers Stefan Am 10.01.2022 um 12:35 schrieb Attila Kinali: > On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:26:26 + (UTC) > Norman Reitz via time-nuts wrote: > >> I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) >> and 25 Mhz sine wave output. > > Try contacting Bernd Neubig at Axtal. He is a fellow time-nut and likely to be > open to supply you with what you need. > > That said, are yo sure you need such stringend phase noise requirements? > It's audio. Nobody is going to hear whether the noise is -60dBc or -80dBc @ > 1Hz, > much less -120dBc. As you have noticed, what you want is not readily > available. > There are only a handful OCXO available that reach that level. One of them is > the famous Oscilloquartz 8607 and its successor the Rakon HSO13/HSO14. But be > prepared > to pay the price of a small car for each of them. And there is the NEL ULPN > OCXO 1714a, > but I don't know how much that one costs. > > > Attila Kinali > ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
You can have a look at morion.com.ru They sell small quantities, no trade license. I think the only product that can meet the -120 dBc at 1 Hz (10 MHz carrier) is the MV336, which is expensive Il giorno lun 10 gen 2022 alle ore 10:03 Norman Reitz via time-nuts < time-nuts@lists.febo.com> ha scritto: > Hi, everyone, > I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) > and 25 Mhz sine wave output. I can only find changes below my quality > requirements for phase noise at Mouser or Digikey. E.g. a 10Mhz should be > better than -120dbc @ 1Hz (-140dbc @ 10Hz) - a 25mHz better than -115 > dbc@10Hz.I want to use them in high quality audio application. > Unfortunately, the minimum order quantities of the providers that I have > found are not available for private customers - or you only sell with proof > of use or a trade license. Since i dont want to start a business in space > or defence-business, this is a problem for me. Do you have a tip or contact > person who also does business with non-lucrative end customers? I am > already aware that the quality of OCXO cannot be obtained for 100 bucks. > best regards > Norman > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send > an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
On 1/10/22 12:26 AM, Norman Reitz via time-nuts wrote: Hi, everyone, I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) and 25 Mhz sine wave output. I can only find changes below my quality requirements for phase noise at Mouser or Digikey. E.g. a 10Mhz should be better than -120dbc @ 1Hz (-140dbc @ 10Hz) - a 25mHz better than -115 dbc@10Hz.I want to use them in high quality audio application. Unfortunately, the minimum order quantities of the providers that I have found are not available for private customers - or you only sell with proof of use or a trade license. Since i dont want to start a business in space or defence-business, this is a problem for me. Do you have a tip or contact person who also does business with non-lucrative end customers? I am already aware that the quality of OCXO cannot be obtained for 100 bucks. best regards Norman I assume you've tried the usual suspects like Vectron (part of Microchip, now), Bliley, Wenzel, Q-Tech, Abracon, MTI-Milliren. You might check to make sure you're not edging close to the limits in the US Munitions List (ITAR) - that will tend to make things harder - even if it's not space qualified or for radar: (15) Space-qualified oscillator for radar in paragraph (a) of this category with phase noise less than −120 dBc/Hz + (20 log10(RF) (in GHz)) measured at 2 KHz* RF (in GHz) from carrier; Most of these places only sell through distribution, not through Mouser/Digikey/Farnell kinds of paths. But small quantities should be no problem (I've bought single or 3-5 oscillators at one time from most of these mfrs, and gotten quotes from all of them). Delivery time will be long (months, if not a year). ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
I'm curious, too, what kind of audio application requires this level of phase noise performance, and why. Cheers Stefan Am 10.01.2022 um 12:35 schrieb Attila Kinali: On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:26:26 + (UTC) Norman Reitz via time-nuts wrote: I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) and 25 Mhz sine wave output. Try contacting Bernd Neubig at Axtal. He is a fellow time-nut and likely to be open to supply you with what you need. That said, are yo sure you need such stringend phase noise requirements? It's audio. Nobody is going to hear whether the noise is -60dBc or -80dBc @ 1Hz, much less -120dBc. As you have noticed, what you want is not readily available. There are only a handful OCXO available that reach that level. One of them is the famous Oscilloquartz 8607 and its successor the Rakon HSO13/HSO14. But be prepared to pay the price of a small car for each of them. And there is the NEL ULPN OCXO 1714a, but I don't know how much that one costs. Attila Kinali ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
Hi Do you need both outputs from the same part? If so it likely will cost less to synthesize the 25 MHz off of the 10 MHz on your side of things rather than have it done in the OCXO. Is a price above $5,000 each at 100 pieces reasonable to you? If not, you might need to look at your spec’s a bit. As mentioned earlier, your phase noise specs are more than a bit tight. Bob > On Jan 10, 2022, at 3:26 AM, Norman Reitz via time-nuts > wrote: > > Hi, everyone, > I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) and > 25 Mhz sine wave output. I can only find changes below my quality > requirements for phase noise at Mouser or Digikey. E.g. a 10Mhz should be > better than -120dbc @ 1Hz (-140dbc @ 10Hz) - a 25mHz better than -115 > dbc@10Hz.I want to use them in high quality audio application. Unfortunately, > the minimum order quantities of the providers that I have found are not > available for private customers - or you only sell with proof of use or a > trade license. Since i dont want to start a business in space or > defence-business, this is a problem for me. Do you have a tip or contact > person who also does business with non-lucrative end customers? I am already > aware that the quality of OCXO cannot be obtained for 100 bucks. > best regards > Norman > > ___ > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an > email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com > To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there. ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
[time-nuts] Re: High precision OCXO supplier for end costomers
On Mon, 10 Jan 2022 08:26:26 + (UTC) Norman Reitz via time-nuts wrote: > I am looking for suppliers of high-quality OCXO in 10 Mhz (sine / square) and > 25 Mhz sine wave output. Try contacting Bernd Neubig at Axtal. He is a fellow time-nut and likely to be open to supply you with what you need. That said, are yo sure you need such stringend phase noise requirements? It's audio. Nobody is going to hear whether the noise is -60dBc or -80dBc @ 1Hz, much less -120dBc. As you have noticed, what you want is not readily available. There are only a handful OCXO available that reach that level. One of them is the famous Oscilloquartz 8607 and its successor the Rakon HSO13/HSO14. But be prepared to pay the price of a small car for each of them. And there is the NEL ULPN OCXO 1714a, but I don't know how much that one costs. Attila Kinali -- In science if you know what you are doing you should not be doing it. In engineering if you do not know what you are doing you should not be doing it. -- Richard W. Hamming, The Art of Doing Science and Engineering ___ time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com -- To unsubscribe send an email to time-nuts-le...@lists.febo.com To unsubscribe, go to and follow the instructions there.
