Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

It’s only a two band device for each system as far as I can see. Even if you 
*could* do both GPS L2 and GPS L5, 
you would have to pick one or the other. Like a lot of this that’s about as 
clear as mud …. Right now the number
of sat’s doing this and that makes the choice of L2 pretty easy to make. In a 
few years if / when / maybe / who knows/ 
we have newer sats up there, that might change. As noted in other posts, you 
can’t really fault them for saving money by
keeping the old hardware up and running. 

Mine is siting here putting out a nice plot of quantization error. Based on a 
few minutes of data it looks a 
lot like other GPS modules. It is a sort of uniform-ish looking distribution 
over -4 ns to about 3.9ns. Resolution 
as reported is 1 ps. 

I will let others chime in on the dangers of “assuming” statistics apply to 
non-gaussian data. However the 
calculated one sigma from the graph’s built in calculator is at ~2.2 ns. All of 
that would match up pretty well
if the “jitter” specs are on an un-corrected pps output. 

Since it looks like a “normal module” it should average down (or not) pretty 
much the same way as other modules do
(or don’t). 

So far the survey in mode is not behaving well. That may be a bug or it may be 
operator error. Page 95 in the F9P integration 
manual shows it being used. One would *guess* that it’s operator error …. I’ll 
keep trying things. 

The manual also shows time measurement on the ext int inputs. I probably should 
check that out as well. As mentioned in another
post, that input may not have quite all the bells and whistles on it. 

Quick summary - about what I expected, some stuff works, some stuff is unclear. 
Every so often uCenter decides to go away 
when this or that button is pushed ( … so don’t keep pushing that button again 
and again …..). 

Bob

> On Jan 26, 2019, at 4:24 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Here is a list of the signals that the M9P can process:
> 
> GPS L1C/A
> GPS L2 CL
> GPS L2 CM
> Galileo E1 C
> Galileo E1 B
> Galileo E5 bI
> Galileo E5 bQ
> BeiDou B1I D1
> BeiDou B1I D2
> BeiDou B2I D1
> BeiDou B2I D2
> QZSS L1C/A
> GLONASS L1 OF
> GLONASS L2 OF
> 
> With 2 L2 GPS signals available, the lack of GPS L5 is probably not a big 
> deal...
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[time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Mark Sims]

Here is a list of the signals that the M9P can process:

GPS L1C/A
GPS L2 CL
GPS L2 CM
Galileo E1 C
Galileo E1 B
Galileo E5 bI
Galileo E5 bQ
BeiDou B1I D1
BeiDou B1I D2
BeiDou B2I D1
BeiDou B2I D2
QZSS L1C/A
GLONASS L1 OF
GLONASS L2 OF

With 2 L2 GPS signals available, the lack of GPS L5 is probably not a big 
deal...
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Tom Knox]

Interesting, but it may not hurt to speak with UBLOX, anyone aware of Time-Nuts 
know the group ranges from novices to some of the most brilliant 
engineers/scientists in the industry and it is well worth supplying product and 
then monitoring the forum. Already the group has made some very interesting 
observations.
Thanks to all who have contributed for their posts.

Tom Knox

"Peace is not the absence of violence, but the presence of Justice" Both MLK 
and Albert Einstein


From: time-nuts  on behalf of Bob kb8tq 

Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2019 11:46 AM
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

Hi

Having dealt with uBlox as an OEM customer, you are not far off the mark. Even 
as an OEM, I believe the real attention only really comes once
you get past 100K a month ….

That’s in no way a knock on uBlox. Supporting something like this as a chip is 
*not* at all easy. There are lots of in’s and outs to getting it to work.
It was not designed with mass market implementation in mind. The modules are 
somewhat easier to support, but even there, not trivial. I’m happy
we can get the modules (and the documentation) at all.

Bob

> On Jan 26, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Leo Bodnar  wrote:
>
> Considering that Ublox won't even sell the stock part unless you are willing 
> to buy 100,000 units I doubt they will listen to anyone representing several 
> dozen hobbyists.  Their biggest argument for having 100k MOQ is "we are 
> afraid that you will need support."
>
> I would say (without much factual backing) that you have to be buying a few 
> millions devices before they will even listen to what someone have to say 
> about additional features.
>
> I am ready to hear success stories but my official Ublox experience so far 
> was nothing but frustration.  So now, when I need Ublox silicon I buy it from 
> Alibaba for $1 (including occasional fakes that have no silicon inside) 
> rather than for $5 from Ublox themselves - because they won't sell 6,000 I 
> need.  When I need features support - I write my own patches.  It's ironic 
> that the most knowledgeable guy on Ublox support forum is not even affiliated 
> with the company.
>
> Their products are amazing for what they cost but I'll switch at a drop of a 
> hat when something worthy comes along.
>
> Leo
>
>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>> If you are a customer who is buying a ton of these a month, give uBlox a 
>> call and they will
>> likely listen to you as they come up with the next generation. In terms of 
>> changes to this
>> generation, suggestions are a couple years too late. The silicon is already 
>> out of the fab
>> and it?s many millions of dollars to re-shoot those masks.
>>> On Jan 25, 2019, at 9:58 PM, MLewis  wrote:
>>> So if there's someone they'd listen to, it's not too late to see if there's 
>>> features from the various time-nuts F9P posts that ublox would add?
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Having dealt with uBlox as an OEM customer, you are not far off the mark. Even 
as an OEM, I believe the real attention only really comes once
you get past 100K a month …. 

That’s in no way a knock on uBlox. Supporting something like this as a chip is 
*not* at all easy. There are lots of in’s and outs to getting it to work. 
It was not designed with mass market implementation in mind. The modules are 
somewhat easier to support, but even there, not trivial. I’m happy
we can get the modules (and the documentation) at all. 

Bob

> On Jan 26, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Leo Bodnar  wrote:
> 
> Considering that Ublox won't even sell the stock part unless you are willing 
> to buy 100,000 units I doubt they will listen to anyone representing several 
> dozen hobbyists.  Their biggest argument for having 100k MOQ is "we are 
> afraid that you will need support."
> 
> I would say (without much factual backing) that you have to be buying a few 
> millions devices before they will even listen to what someone have to say 
> about additional features.
> 
> I am ready to hear success stories but my official Ublox experience so far 
> was nothing but frustration.  So now, when I need Ublox silicon I buy it from 
> Alibaba for $1 (including occasional fakes that have no silicon inside) 
> rather than for $5 from Ublox themselves - because they won't sell 6,000 I 
> need.  When I need features support - I write my own patches.  It's ironic 
> that the most knowledgeable guy on Ublox support forum is not even affiliated 
> with the company.
> 
> Their products are amazing for what they cost but I'll switch at a drop of a 
> hat when something worthy comes along.
> 
> Leo 
> 
>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>> If you are a customer who is buying a ton of these a month, give uBlox a 
>> call and they will
>> likely listen to you as they come up with the next generation. In terms of 
>> changes to this 
>> generation, suggestions are a couple years too late. The silicon is already 
>> out of the fab
>> and it?s many millions of dollars to re-shoot those masks. 
>>> On Jan 25, 2019, at 9:58 PM, MLewis  wrote:
>>> So if there's someone they'd listen to, it's not too late to see if there's 
>>> features from the various time-nuts F9P posts that ublox would add?
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Leo Bodnar]

Considering that Ublox won't even sell the stock part unless you are willing to 
buy 100,000 units I doubt they will listen to anyone representing several dozen 
hobbyists.  Their biggest argument for having 100k MOQ is "we are afraid that 
you will need support."

I would say (without much factual backing) that you have to be buying a few 
millions devices before they will even listen to what someone have to say about 
additional features.

I am ready to hear success stories but my official Ublox experience so far was 
nothing but frustration.  So now, when I need Ublox silicon I buy it from 
Alibaba for $1 (including occasional fakes that have no silicon inside) rather 
than for $5 from Ublox themselves - because they won't sell 6,000 I need.  When 
I need features support - I write my own patches.  It's ironic that the most 
knowledgeable guy on Ublox support forum is not even affiliated with the 
company.

Their products are amazing for what they cost but I'll switch at a drop of a 
hat when something worthy comes along.

Leo 
 
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> If you are a customer who is buying a ton of these a month, give uBlox a call 
> and they will
> likely listen to you as they come up with the next generation. In terms of 
> changes to this 
> generation, suggestions are a couple years too late. The silicon is already 
> out of the fab
> and it?s many millions of dollars to re-shoot those masks. 
>> On Jan 25, 2019, at 9:58 PM, MLewis  wrote:
>> So if there's someone they'd listen to, it's not too late to see if there's 
>> features from the various time-nuts F9P posts that ublox would add?

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

No need to hurry on the L5 GPS data writer if the F9 is the issue. It does not 
(at this point) do GPS L5.
It will do L1 / L2C but the L5 box is grayed out. It should do E5 if you have 
the right antenna. Since there
is an L5 box there in uCenter, one would guess it might come along eventually 
on the F9. 

Bob

> On Jan 25, 2019, at 9:07 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> All the Ublox timing receivers output carrier phase and pseudorange data, so 
> I suspect the F9T will also.   Heather can directly write a RINEX file that 
> can be submitted to CSRS-PPP for a precise (say 100 mm)  position using L1 
> only data.   For L1/L2 data you have more online processing options available 
> and should get maybe 10mm precision.
> 
> I'll probably have to improve the RINEX v3.xx writer in order to better 
> handle L2C and L5 data...  also may need some code changes to handle the L2 
> data from the Ublox messages.
> 
> --
> 
>> I think an important question is if the T version still outputs
> carrier phase on all the signals.
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

If you are a customer who is buying a ton of these a month, give uBlox a call 
and they will
likely listen to you as they come up with the next generation. In terms of 
changes to this 
generation, suggestions are a couple years too late. The silicon is already out 
of the fab
and it’s many millions of dollars to re-shoot those masks. 

Bob

> On Jan 25, 2019, at 9:58 PM, MLewis  wrote:
> 
> On 25/01/2019 7:56 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> ...
>> 
>> Doing a buy on the F9T might be easier if the part actually existed ….. 
>> Right now it is still in the
>> vaporware phase.
>> 
>> Bob
> So if there's someone they'd listen to, it's not too late to see if there's 
> features from the various time-nuts F9P posts that ublox would add?
> 
> And if they're listening, given the number of users in high-multipath 
> environments due to limited skyviews, for firmware that is aimed at 
> fixed-position usages, I'd like to see:
> o   the min elevation have a matching max elevation
> o   an azimuth range, starting to ending, to exclude sats not in that range
> That should be just as fast in execution as the current min-elevation setting?
> 
> The ability to specify a sat to exclude from the solution would be very 
> useful. Then at least we could monitor the list of sats, their elevation & 
> azimuth and issue a command to exclude one that isn't in our skyview. Much 
> neater to have the max elevation and azimuth range as above.
> 
> A much less common benefit of a specific sat exclusion is: it would allow us 
> to exclude a sat when it's passing behind the known position of an 
> interfering object in our skyview. I have two transformers on poles I'd love 
> to remove.
> 
> Michael
> 
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[time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Mark Sims]

All the Ublox timing receivers output carrier phase and pseudorange data, so I 
suspect the F9T will also.   Heather can directly write a RINEX file that can 
be submitted to CSRS-PPP for a precise (say 100 mm)  position using L1 only 
data.   For L1/L2 data you have more online processing options available and 
should get maybe 10mm precision.

I'll probably have to improve the RINEX v3.xx writer in order to better handle 
L2C and L5 data...  also may need some code changes to handle the L2 data from 
the Ublox messages.

--

> I think an important question is if the T version still outputs
carrier phase on all the signals.
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[MLewis]

On 25/01/2019 7:56 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

...

Doing a buy on the F9T might be easier if the part actually existed ….. Right 
now it is still in the
vaporware phase.

Bob
So if there's someone they'd listen to, it's not too late to see if 
there's features from the various time-nuts F9P posts that ublox would add?


And if they're listening, given the number of users in high-multipath 
environments due to limited skyviews, for firmware that is aimed at 
fixed-position usages, I'd like to see:

o   the min elevation have a matching max elevation
o   an azimuth range, starting to ending, to exclude sats not in that range
That should be just as fast in execution as the current min-elevation 
setting?


The ability to specify a sat to exclude from the solution would be very 
useful. Then at least we could monitor the list of sats, their elevation 
& azimuth and issue a command to exclude one that isn't in our skyview. 
Much neater to have the max elevation and azimuth range as above.


A much less common benefit of a specific sat exclusion is: it would 
allow us to exclude a sat when it's passing behind the known position of 
an interfering object in our skyview. I have two transformers on poles 
I'd love to remove.


Michael

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Gregory Maxwell]

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 11:00 PM Dustin Marquess  wrote:
> Agreed.  I'm sure the only difference between the two (if there really
> is any) is all in the firmware.  They seem to disable a lot of the
> nicer timing features in their non-timing modules.  Things like
> UBX-CFG-TMODE2 to survey-in and enable 1SV timing mode is a big one.

I think an important question is if the T version still outputs
carrier phase on all the signals.

For fixed position timekeeping I like collecting a few days of data
from the receiver and a nearby CORS station (no problem in northern
California, I'm not sure if they're so easily found elsewhere!) and
post-processing using RTKLIB and the downloadable orbital data.

The apparent lack of support for online RTK in the F9T receivers
wouldn't be a problem for this, but getting the full set of
observables out would be. The UBLOX datasheets seem really thin.

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Dustin Marquess]

Agreed.  I'm sure the only difference between the two (if there really
is any) is all in the firmware.  They seem to disable a lot of the
nicer timing features in their non-timing modules.  Things like
UBX-CFG-TMODE2 to survey-in and enable 1SV timing mode is a big one.

-Dustin

On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 8:00 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> In every other generation of uBlox parts, the “high end” modules (in this 
> case the P and the T) pretty much did the same
> thing with only minor differences. You do need precise position to get 
> precise time. You also need precise time to get precise
> position. That’s just the way GPS works and always has worked.
>
> What gets us wrapped up are a bunch of specs that really are not very well 
> qualified. Just what they mean be this or that
> is rarely clear. Is a timing accuracy tracing it all the way back to BIH in 
> Paris? Is a location accuracy doing the same sort
> of thing? Even when they try to quantify a spec, that footnote may or may not 
> be completely correct. A lot of these docs
> still talk about the M8 parts when you drill down into them.
>
> The only way to really know is to try some parts and see. That’s the way it’s 
> always been with these modules from pretty
> much all the vendors.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 25, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Mike Cook  wrote:
> >
> > So the ultimate question is: Do you need a F9P  in order to find the 
> > precise position of your F9T Antenna so that you can set up the F9T or is 
> > the F9T’s survey mode as accurate ( I doubt it as the doc gives position 
> > accuracy 2m ). Come to think of it, do you need three positioning receivers 
> > to be sure of your position? and three P9Ts so that you can use 
> > differential mode for best timing accuracy. I see no on board quantization 
> > error correction mentioned, nor quantization error reporting though I 
> > expect that is there, so for best accurracy that has to be added.  This 
> > looks as though it could get expensive.
> >
> >
> >> Le 24 janv. 2019 à 07:30, Dustin Marquess  a écrit :
> >>
> >> This looks ideal to me:
> >>
> >> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf
> >>
> >> -Dustin
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
> >>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hi,
> >>>
> >>> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
> >>> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
> >>> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
> >>> 60ns for 99%.
> >>>
> >>> I think I want an F9T :)
> >>>
> >
> > In the year 1000 CE, the Persian Muslim scholar al-Biruni first used the 
> > term second in Arabic and defined it as 1⁄86,400 (that is, 1/(24 × 60 × 
> > 60)) of a mean solar day.
> >
> >
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>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[David J Taylor via time-nuts]

This looks ideal to me:

https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf

-Dustin
==

A candidate for a group buy?

David
--
SatSignal Software - Quality software for you
Web: http://www.satsignal.eu
Email: david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk
Twitter: @gm8arv 



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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Chris Burford]

Another aspect of this is what do you consider "good enough"? I've used my 
Neo-M8T-0 receiver for a positional fix down to about 4cm with the use of a 
CORS facility at 5.6km distance.

The F9x series would probably narrow this range considerably, but again, what 
is good enough? It will be interesting to hear the results of these two new 
units from ublox once they get in to the hands of more consumers.

Chris

 Mike Cook  wrote: 
> So the ultimate question is: Do you need a F9P  in order to find the precise 
> position of your F9T Antenna so that you can set up the F9T or is the F9T’s 
> survey mode as accurate ( I doubt it as the doc gives position accuracy 2m ). 
> Come to think of it, do you need three positioning receivers to be sure of 
> your position? and three P9Ts so that you can use differential mode for best 
> timing accuracy. I see no on board quantization error correction mentioned, 
> nor quantization error reporting though I expect that is there, so for best 
> accurracy that has to be added.  This looks as though it could get expensive.


> Le 24 janv. 2019 à 07:30, Dustin Marquess  a écrit :
> 
> This looks ideal to me:
> 
> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf
> 
> -Dustin
> 
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
>> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
>> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
>> 60ns for 99%.
>> 
>> I think I want an F9T :)
>> 

In the year 1000 CE, the Persian Muslim scholar al-Biruni first used the term 
second in Arabic and defined it as 1⁄86,400 (that is, 1/(24 × 60 × 60)) of a 
mean solar day.


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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

In every other generation of uBlox parts, the “high end” modules (in this case 
the P and the T) pretty much did the same 
thing with only minor differences. You do need precise position to get precise 
time. You also need precise time to get precise
position. That’s just the way GPS works and always has worked. 

What gets us wrapped up are a bunch of specs that really are not very well 
qualified. Just what they mean be this or that
is rarely clear. Is a timing accuracy tracing it all the way back to BIH in 
Paris? Is a location accuracy doing the same sort 
of thing? Even when they try to quantify a spec, that footnote may or may not 
be completely correct. A lot of these docs 
still talk about the M8 parts when you drill down into them.

The only way to really know is to try some parts and see. That’s the way it’s 
always been with these modules from pretty
much all the vendors. 

Bob

> On Jan 25, 2019, at 6:07 AM, Mike Cook  wrote:
> 
> So the ultimate question is: Do you need a F9P  in order to find the precise 
> position of your F9T Antenna so that you can set up the F9T or is the F9T’s 
> survey mode as accurate ( I doubt it as the doc gives position accuracy 2m ). 
> Come to think of it, do you need three positioning receivers to be sure of 
> your position? and three P9Ts so that you can use differential mode for best 
> timing accuracy. I see no on board quantization error correction mentioned, 
> nor quantization error reporting though I expect that is there, so for best 
> accurracy that has to be added.  This looks as though it could get expensive.
> 
> 
>> Le 24 janv. 2019 à 07:30, Dustin Marquess  a écrit :
>> 
>> This looks ideal to me:
>> 
>> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf
>> 
>> -Dustin
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
>>> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
>>> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
>>> 60ns for 99%.
>>> 
>>> I think I want an F9T :)
>>> 
> 
> In the year 1000 CE, the Persian Muslim scholar al-Biruni first used the term 
> second in Arabic and defined it as 1⁄86,400 (that is, 1/(24 × 60 × 60)) of a 
> mean solar day.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Juerg Koegel]

*Von: *Dustin Marquess <mailto:dmarqu...@gmail.com>
*Gesendet: *Donnerstag, 24. Januar 2019 09:07
*An: *Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 
<mailto:time-nuts@lists.febo.com>

*Betreff: *[Spam] Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

This looks ideal to me:

https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf

-Dustin

Perfect for what we like to do. Checked Ublox not yet available. Time 
nuts should monitor and let us know when and where available.


Juerg


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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Mike Cook]

So the ultimate question is: Do you need a F9P  in order to find the precise 
position of your F9T Antenna so that you can set up the F9T or is the F9T’s 
survey mode as accurate ( I doubt it as the doc gives position accuracy 2m ). 
Come to think of it, do you need three positioning receivers to be sure of your 
position? and three P9Ts so that you can use differential mode for best timing 
accuracy. I see no on board quantization error correction mentioned, nor 
quantization error reporting though I expect that is there, so for best 
accurracy that has to be added.  This looks as though it could get expensive.


> Le 24 janv. 2019 à 07:30, Dustin Marquess  a écrit :
> 
> This looks ideal to me:
> 
> https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf
> 
> -Dustin
> 
> On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
>> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
>> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
>> 60ns for 99%.
>> 
>> I think I want an F9T :)
>> 

In the year 1000 CE, the Persian Muslim scholar al-Biruni first used the term 
second in Arabic and defined it as 1⁄86,400 (that is, 1/(24 × 60 × 60)) of a 
mean solar day.


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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Dustin Marquess]

This looks ideal to me:

https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/RCB-F9T_ProductSummary_%28UBX-18069985%29.pdf

-Dustin

On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 8:01 PM Angus via time-nuts
 wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
> timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
> absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
> 60ns for 99%.
>
> I think I want an F9T :)
>
> Angus.
>
> On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 09:00:33 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Hi
> >
> >Ok, so the “product summary” page on DigiKey very clearly shows the
> >frequency coverage information. If that data sheet was on SparkFun ….
> >I must have gone right past it.
> >
> >The equivalent F9T sheet starts out right at the top talking about correcting
> >ionosphere delay to deliver better timing. One would *assume* the F9P
> >does the same thing. It never seems to show up in quite the same big bold
> >print….
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >> On Jan 21, 2019, at 8:44 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 1:41 AM, Mark Sims  >>> > wrote:
> >>>
>  It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if it 
>  is multi-band for the other systems.
> >>>
> >>> Here's what they say it supports:
> >>>
> >>> 184-channel u-blox F9 engine
> >>> GPS L1C/A L2C,
> >>> GLO L1OF L2OF,
> >>> GAL E1B/C E5b,
> >>> BDS B1I B2I,
> >>> QZSS L1C/A L2C
> >>
> >> If that’s in the docs on the module, I missed it. My concern is the 
> >> frequency range of the front end
> >> SAW’s (that are external to the chip set).
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Here's the link to the Sparkfun device.  I think it uses a u.FL antenna 
> >>> connector.
> >>> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/15136 
> >>> 
> >>
> >> Yup and they aren’t crazy expensive compared to the module. The usual 
> >> auction sites also have
> >> the same sort of thing for a bit less money.
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> ___
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> >>> 
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> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com 
> >>> 
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Angus via time-nuts]

Hi,

It doesn't look like the F9P does anything special for timing - the
timing specs given in the F9T spec sheet are 5 ns (1-sigma, clear sky,
absolute mode) and +/- 4ns jitter, but for the F9P are 30ns RMS and
60ns for 99%.

I think I want an F9T :)

Angus.

On Mon, 21 Jan 2019 09:00:33 -0500, you wrote:

>Hi
>
>Ok, so the “product summary” page on DigiKey very clearly shows the 
>frequency coverage information. If that data sheet was on SparkFun ….
>I must have gone right past it.
>
>The equivalent F9T sheet starts out right at the top talking about correcting 
>ionosphere delay to deliver better timing. One would *assume* the F9P 
>does the same thing. It never seems to show up in quite the same big bold
>print….
>
>Bob
>
>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 8:44 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 1:41 AM, Mark Sims >> > wrote:
>>> 
 It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if it is 
 multi-band for the other systems.
>>> 
>>> Here's what they say it supports:
>>> 
>>> 184-channel u-blox F9 engine 
>>> GPS L1C/A L2C, 
>>> GLO L1OF L2OF, 
>>> GAL E1B/C E5b, 
>>> BDS B1I B2I, 
>>> QZSS L1C/A L2C
>> 
>> If that’s in the docs on the module, I missed it. My concern is the 
>> frequency range of the front end 
>> SAW’s (that are external to the chip set). 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Here's the link to the Sparkfun device.  I think it uses a u.FL antenna 
>>> connector.
>>> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/15136 
>>> 
>> 
>> Yup and they aren’t crazy expensive compared to the module. The usual 
>> auction sites also have
>> the same sort of thing for a bit less money.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com 
>>> 
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>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com 
>>> 
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
>
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The only gotcha I see on that part is the gain spec. If the module really does 
need
30 to 40 db of gain ahead of it, that antenna does not quite make it. That’s 
with 
zero cable loss. Tack on a typical chunk of cable with 6 db of loss and you are 
even further outside of the uBlox recommendations ….

Bob

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 10:45 AM, David Witten  wrote:
> 
> A competitor to the Tallysman antennas is Taoglas:
> 
> https://www.taoglas.com/product-category/gps-glonass-gnss/l1-l2-l5-antennas/
> 
> 3.0 v, $77.47 direct
> https://cdn.taoglas.com/datasheets/AQHA.50.A.30.pdf
> 
> Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Tim Lister]

On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 12:02 AM Mark Sims  wrote:
>
> That looks like the antenna that I am currently using.   The were mentioned 
> on the list last year, but the cheap ones quickly disappeared and the price 
> went to $250-$300.  The seem to work very well.   I get 6-10 mm error 
> ellipses using L1/L2 GPS on a Trimble NetRS.   They have no problem with 
> Glonass/Galileo/Beidou on a M8T.
>
> -
>
> > My first though was that something like this:
>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/CORS-RTK-GNSS-Survey-Antenna-high-gain-measurement-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BDS/253786590956?hash=item3b16dc0eec:g:p8sAAOSwu7hbNoe0:rk:1:pf:0

Do you know if this is a model that has an entry and phase center
measurements in the ANTEX file ? (Can't read the model number sticker
on the image...)

Cheers,
Tim

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <73db44de-f81e-4a3c-b27a-c9875da91...@n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq writes:

>Once you do replace the TCXO, you then are very dependent on a sawtooth 
>correction 
>to run your GPSDO. The PPS becomes one big long hanging bridge and thus is not 
>useful. 

Well...

If you do not have the sawtooth, what you can do instead is try to steer your
external clock to give you *maximum* jitter on the PPS.

That situation arises when you get the GPS to "waffle" between which
two clock-cycles of the external clock it should put the PPS.

It is incredibly dependent on the GPS receiver internals, and it is
very hard to keep stable, but you _can_ do it.

I know, because I did :-)

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[David Witten]

A competitor to the Tallysman antennas is Taoglas:

https://www.taoglas.com/product-category/gps-glonass-gnss/l1-l2-l5-antennas/

 3.0 v, $77.47 direct
https://cdn.taoglas.com/datasheets/AQHA.50.A.30.pdf

Dave
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

On 2019-01-22 14:10, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:

The one thing which is missing is a external frequency input. You can
get a frequency output in its place, but it does not fully replace the
input. That's where the module vs. chip comes in.

Consider talking to sparkfun about how they should do the next version ?

Well, the actual ZED-F9P module does not have it as far as I can see 
from the uBLOX datasheets. The module has a TCXO next to the actual F9 
chip inside the module, so the issue really needs to ripple back to uBLOX.


Let me be fair about this, for most uses the ZED-F9P module is just fine 
as it is. It's in fact a wonderful module if it delivers everything 
promised. However, for some more unusual uses we really like to input a 
reference frequency that we steer from a good TCXO, OCXO or Rubidium. 
This will have uses in the time-and-frequency community but also for 
some reference base-stations.


As always, as a hobbyist you want to get everything for essentially 
free. The existing module will deliver so many of the previously premium 
functions that used to cost several thousand dollars in OEM price, but 
for a much lower price, we talk about dropping a zero and maybe divide 
by 2 or so.


So, I think SparkFun is kind of limited in what they can do with the 
module. I would not hesitate to solder in on that board if that was what 
was needed for my hobbyist needs. I've done stuff like that before, and 
will for sure do it again. It's uBLOX we need to talk to for this 
feature request.


Cheers,
Magnus


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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

On a “chip" based setup like this, it’s a matter of pulling the TCXO and 
putting in some
wires. Whatever frequency the TCXO used to supply, that’s what your magic 
external 
device needs to provide. The designers do not seem to allow you to provide a 
variety
of input frequencies. Given how the input gets used for all sorts of things, 
that’s not
as crazy as it sounds.

The option to pull the TCXO and fiddle has been there for quite a while. At 
some point
they will move the TCXO function inside the “chip" package (with MEMS or some 
other 
magic). Once they do, the ability to tear it off will become a bit more 
difficult…. :)

Once you do replace the TCXO, you then are very dependent on a sawtooth 
correction 
to run your GPSDO. The PPS becomes one big long hanging bridge and thus is not 
useful. 
Carrier phase or (like in the TBolt) code phase data could be used as an 
alternative to 
a sawtooth correction word. 

There also are some pesky issues about frequency slew rates and other nonsense 
you
could bump into doing a TCXO replacement.  I can’t think of any that would be 
terribly
hard to take care of. That all assumes you have a good clean reference. 

Bob

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 8:10 AM, Poul-Henning Kamp  wrote:
> 
>> The one thing which is missing is a external frequency input. You can 
>> get a frequency output in its place, but it does not fully replace the 
>> input. That's where the module vs. chip comes in.
> 
> Consider talking to sparkfun about how they should do the next version ?
> 
> -- 
> Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
> p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
> FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
> Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

If you wan an external input, the Trimble NetRS shows up from time to time in 
roughly 
the same price range. It will do L1 and L2c.

If you do go the chip route and supply an external input, the chip’s do not do 
a cleanup loop
on the input. The phase noise specs on the “required” input are fairly tight as 
a result. 
The input is also (no big surprise) not very tolerant of spurs and “bumps” in 
the noise.
I ….. ummm …. errr…. have some experiance at doing it the wrong way on GPS chip 
sets… :)

Bob

> On Jan 22, 2019, at 3:22 AM, Magnus Danielson  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The one thing which is missing is a external frequency input. You can get a 
> frequency output in its place, but it does not fully replace the input. 
> That's where the module vs. chip comes in.
> 
> Very tempted to try one out.
> 
> Cheers,
> Magnus
> 
> On 2019-01-22 01:42, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> At least at this point things like sawtooth correction outputs are still a 
>> “who knows if there is one”
>> kind of thing. Doing a GPSDO and not having sawtooth corrected out is sort 
>> of a letdown ….
>> Stuff gets better from L1 / L2, but then gets worse when you put hanging 
>> bridges back in ….
>> Keep in mind that hanging bridges do not *always* average out.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 4:43 PM, J. Grizzard  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Per the integration guide 
>>> (https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/ZED-F9P_IntegrationManual_%28UBX-18010802%29.pdf),
>>>  the recommended antenna should be between 30dB and 40dB of gain.
>>> 
>>> Additional note: ublox is releasing an eval board (p/n C099-F9P) which is 
>>> similar to the sparkfun board, except a less annoying form factor (can work 
>>> as a standalone thing, or fit on an arduino), additional interface options 
>>> (wifi and bluetooth, pretty useful if you're doing RTK), less annoying 
>>> connectors (SMA), and ships with the ublox multi-band antenna ... all for 
>>> $50 more than the sparkfun, according to digi-key. They're not available 
>>> yet, but I imagine the will be soon. See 
>>> https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/c099-f9p-application-board#tab-documentation-resources
>>>  for more details.
>>> 
>>> On a vaguely related note, I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit 
>>> something like a AE6RV GPSDO with one of these. The footprint is pretty 
>>> different (and there's a big pile of ground/thermal connections on the 
>>> bottom of the new chip), but it seems like the actual electrical interface 
>>> is probably the same in the important ways, so it might be possible to make 
>>> an adapter board, maybe...
>>> 
>>> -j
>>> 
>>> On 1/21/19 8:32 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
 Hi
 
 Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
 enough
 to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The 
 gotcha
 is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As 
 we have
 found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas 
 range
 from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna 
 is not
 the best way to do things if you are in an urban area.
 
 There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort 
 of antenna
 bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the 
 module’s bias setup
 that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin 
 can have
 main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it 
 for antenna bias,
 that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
 eliminates a
 number of the new ones.
 
 If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick 
 from on eBay.
 They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
 likely
 to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to 
 be sold
 by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a 
 while. Making
 sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are 
 extensive stories
 in the archives …..
 
 Bob
 
> On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
> 
> What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems 
> at
> once?
> My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS 
> system.
> 
> --- Graham
> 
> ==
> 
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  
> wrote:
> 
>> If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
>> ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
>> SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
>> 
>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
>>> 
>>> 1) The device 

Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

>The one thing which is missing is a external frequency input. You can 
>get a frequency output in its place, but it does not fully replace the 
>input. That's where the module vs. chip comes in.

Consider talking to sparkfun about how they should do the next version ?

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Magnus Danielson]

Hi,

The one thing which is missing is a external frequency input. You can 
get a frequency output in its place, but it does not fully replace the 
input. That's where the module vs. chip comes in.


Very tempted to try one out.

Cheers,
Magnus

On 2019-01-22 01:42, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

At least at this point things like sawtooth correction outputs are still a “who 
knows if there is one”
kind of thing. Doing a GPSDO and not having sawtooth corrected out is sort of a 
letdown ….
Stuff gets better from L1 / L2, but then gets worse when you put hanging 
bridges back in ….
Keep in mind that hanging bridges do not *always* average out.

Bob


On Jan 21, 2019, at 4:43 PM, J. Grizzard  wrote:

Per the integration guide 
(https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/ZED-F9P_IntegrationManual_%28UBX-18010802%29.pdf),
 the recommended antenna should be between 30dB and 40dB of gain.

Additional note: ublox is releasing an eval board (p/n C099-F9P) which is 
similar to the sparkfun board, except a less annoying form factor (can work as 
a standalone thing, or fit on an arduino), additional interface options (wifi 
and bluetooth, pretty useful if you're doing RTK), less annoying connectors 
(SMA), and ships with the ublox multi-band antenna ... all for $50 more than 
the sparkfun, according to digi-key. They're not available yet, but I imagine 
the will be soon. See 
https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/c099-f9p-application-board#tab-documentation-resources
 for more details.

On a vaguely related note, I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit 
something like a AE6RV GPSDO with one of these. The footprint is pretty 
different (and there's a big pile of ground/thermal connections on the bottom 
of the new chip), but it seems like the actual electrical interface is probably 
the same in the important ways, so it might be possible to make an adapter 
board, maybe...

-j

On 1/21/19 8:32 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
enough
to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The gotcha
is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As we 
have
found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas range
from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is not
the best way to do things if you are in an urban area.

There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort of 
antenna
bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the module’s 
bias setup
that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin can 
have
main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
antenna bias,
that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
eliminates a
number of the new ones.

If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick from 
on eBay.
They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
likely
to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to be 
sold
by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
Making
sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are extensive 
stories
in the archives …..

Bob


On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:

What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
once?
My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.

--- Graham

==

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  wrote:


If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

 From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:

1) The device *does* have a position hold capability

2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns

resolution?

3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.

4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if

it is multi-band for the other systems.

5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.

6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.

Again, all from a quick read ….

Bob


On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:

Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a

board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2
data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1
time pulse output.

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[time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Mark Sims]

That looks like the antenna that I am currently using.   The were mentioned on 
the list last year, but the cheap ones quickly disappeared and the price went 
to $250-$300.  The seem to work very well.   I get 6-10 mm error ellipses using 
L1/L2 GPS on a Trimble NetRS.   They have no problem with 
Glonass/Galileo/Beidou on a M8T.

-

> My first though was that something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CORS-RTK-GNSS-Survey-Antenna-high-gain-measurement-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BDS/253786590956?hash=item3b16dc0eec:g:p8sAAOSwu7hbNoe0:rk:1:pf:0
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Poul-Henning Kamp]

In message <9cc8db95-438a-4491-89db-b55e22996...@n1k.org>, Bob kb8tq writes:

>At least at this point things like sawtooth correction outputs are still a 
>“who knows if there is one”
>kind of thing. Doing a GPSDO and not having sawtooth corrected out is sort of 
>a letdown ….
>Stuff gets better from L1 / L2, but then gets worse when you put hanging 
>bridges back in ….
>Keep in mind that hanging bridges do not *always* average out.

It's even worse than that:  The better your GPS's oscillator, the less the
hanging bridges average out.

-- 
Poul-Henning Kamp   | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20
p...@freebsd.org | TCP/IP since RFC 956
FreeBSD committer   | BSD since 4.3-tahoe
Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

At least at this point things like sawtooth correction outputs are still a “who 
knows if there is one”
kind of thing. Doing a GPSDO and not having sawtooth corrected out is sort of a 
letdown ….
Stuff gets better from L1 / L2, but then gets worse when you put hanging 
bridges back in ….
Keep in mind that hanging bridges do not *always* average out.

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2019, at 4:43 PM, J. Grizzard  wrote:
> 
> Per the integration guide 
> (https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/ZED-F9P_IntegrationManual_%28UBX-18010802%29.pdf),
>  the recommended antenna should be between 30dB and 40dB of gain.
> 
> Additional note: ublox is releasing an eval board (p/n C099-F9P) which is 
> similar to the sparkfun board, except a less annoying form factor (can work 
> as a standalone thing, or fit on an arduino), additional interface options 
> (wifi and bluetooth, pretty useful if you're doing RTK), less annoying 
> connectors (SMA), and ships with the ublox multi-band antenna ... all for $50 
> more than the sparkfun, according to digi-key. They're not available yet, but 
> I imagine the will be soon. See 
> https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/c099-f9p-application-board#tab-documentation-resources
>  for more details.
> 
> On a vaguely related note, I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit 
> something like a AE6RV GPSDO with one of these. The footprint is pretty 
> different (and there's a big pile of ground/thermal connections on the bottom 
> of the new chip), but it seems like the actual electrical interface is 
> probably the same in the important ways, so it might be possible to make an 
> adapter board, maybe...
> 
> -j
> 
> On 1/21/19 8:32 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
>> enough
>> to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The gotcha
>> is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As 
>> we have
>> found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas 
>> range
>> from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is 
>> not
>> the best way to do things if you are in an urban area.
>> 
>> There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort 
>> of antenna
>> bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the 
>> module’s bias setup
>> that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin 
>> can have
>> main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
>> antenna bias,
>> that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
>> eliminates a
>> number of the new ones.
>> 
>> If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick 
>> from on eBay.
>> They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
>> likely
>> to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to be 
>> sold
>> by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
>> Making
>> sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are extensive 
>> stories
>> in the archives …..
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
>>> once?
>>> My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.
>>> 
>>> --- Graham
>>> 
>>> ==
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  wrote:
>>> 
 If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
 ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
 SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
 
 On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> Hi
> 
> From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
> 
> 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
> 
> 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns
 resolution?
> 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
> 
> 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if
 it is multi-band for the other systems.
> 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
> 
> 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
> 
> Again, all from a quick read ….
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>> 
>> Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a
 board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2
 data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
 support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1
 time pulse output.
>> ___
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>> To unsubscribe, go to
 

Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Tom Knox]

Hopefully Jackson Labs (If possible) will offer an update of their M12M 
replacement that I believe currently uses M8T. I have been preparing for this 
inevitable evolution for a while updating all my antenna system with all band 
GNSS antennas, distribution amps, as well as fiber links I use to protect from 
possible lighting strikes. In metrology applications this should prove a big 
step forward using GPS as a replacement in many lab applications currently 
using Cesium standards when disciplining a ULPN clean-up oscillator. Cheers Tom


From: time-nuts  on behalf of Mark Sims 

Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2019 3:42 PM
To: time-nuts@lists.febo.com
Subject: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a board 
($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2 data.  It 
outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position support along 
with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1 time pulse output.
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Here’s an ad for a somewhat different antenna with some barely readable 
bandwidth testing data:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/RTK-system-HIGH-GAIN-GNSS-antennas-GPS-Glonass-Galileo-Bei-Dou-High-Precision-waterproof-survey-antenna/32826409839.html?aff_platform=promotion=1548110255481=i6Ujaqn_trace_key=b8dab77ba20845429ffa1fc31fd6d51f-1548110255481-09708-i6Ujaqn_id=2cf8f236a50d4cd79c67cb1d789ca57c
 


The antenna also shows up on other sites from time to time. It appears to run 
off of 3.3V it’s a bit more expensive than the first one. It’s still about 
1/10th  
the price of some of the non-Chinese sourced products. 

The data in this ad

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/New-RTK-system-GNSS-antennaS-GPS-Glonass-Beidou-High-Precision-waterproof-survey-antenna-HIGH-GAIN-support/1920594_32805500077.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.60.2d4f6261ui9nrX
 


That *might* apply to the first one I mentioned (or might not …) suggests that 
this one may be a better bet for E5. 

Again, no experience with the seller. No idea what antenna you actually will 
get. The world may end tomorrow :) 

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2019, at 2:44 PM, MLewis  wrote:
> 
> Like these?
> http://www.tallysman.com/index.php/gnss/products/antennas-triple-band/
> 
> On 21/01/2019 12:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> To be more precise, what you want is a L1/L2/L5 triple band antenna.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
>>> enough
>>> to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The 
>>> gotcha
>>> is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As 
>>> we have
>>> found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas 
>>> range
>>> from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is 
>>> not
>>> the best way to do things if you are in an urban area.
>>> 
>>> There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort 
>>> of antenna
>>> bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the 
>>> module’s bias setup
>>> that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin 
>>> can have
>>> main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
>>> antenna bias,
>>> that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
>>> eliminates a
>>> number of the new ones.
>>> 
>>> If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick 
>>> from on eBay.
>>> They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
>>> likely
>>> to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to 
>>> be sold
>>> by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
>>> Making
>>> sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are 
>>> extensive stories
>>> in the archives …..
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
 
 What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
 once?
 My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.
 
 --- Graham
 
 ==
 
 On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  
 wrote:
 
> If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
> ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
> SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
> 
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
>> 
>> 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
>> 
>> 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns
> resolution?
>> 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
>> 
>> 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if
> it is multi-band for the other systems.
>> 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
>> 
>> 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
>> 
>> Again, all from a quick read ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a
> board ($219).  The F9P supports 

Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

My first though was that something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/CORS-RTK-GNSS-Survey-Antenna-high-gain-measurement-GNSS-GPS-GLONASS-BDS/253786590956?hash=item3b16dc0eec:g:p8sAAOSwu7hbNoe0:rk:1:pf:0
 


Would be the most economical choice. I know noting about the exact antenna you 
will get or the seller. It simply is the 
first thing that popped up on a search. At least based on the pictures it will 
run off of 3.3V. Depending on which
part of the page you read it will cover (or might cover) everything on all of 
the bands. 

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2019, at 2:44 PM, MLewis  wrote:
> 
> Like these?
> http://www.tallysman.com/index.php/gnss/products/antennas-triple-band/
> 
> On 21/01/2019 12:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> To be more precise, what you want is a L1/L2/L5 triple band antenna.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
>>> enough
>>> to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The 
>>> gotcha
>>> is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As 
>>> we have
>>> found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas 
>>> range
>>> from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is 
>>> not
>>> the best way to do things if you are in an urban area.
>>> 
>>> There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort 
>>> of antenna
>>> bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the 
>>> module’s bias setup
>>> that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin 
>>> can have
>>> main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
>>> antenna bias,
>>> that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
>>> eliminates a
>>> number of the new ones.
>>> 
>>> If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick 
>>> from on eBay.
>>> They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
>>> likely
>>> to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to 
>>> be sold
>>> by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
>>> Making
>>> sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are 
>>> extensive stories
>>> in the archives …..
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
 
 What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
 once?
 My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.
 
 --- Graham
 
 ==
 
 On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  
 wrote:
 
> If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
> ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
> SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
> 
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
>> 
>> 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
>> 
>> 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns
> resolution?
>> 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
>> 
>> 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if
> it is multi-band for the other systems.
>> 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
>> 
>> 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
>> 
>> Again, all from a quick read ….
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a
> board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks 
> L1/L2
> data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
> support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 
> 1
> time pulse output.
>>> ___
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>> 
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> 

Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[J. Grizzard]

Per the integration guide 
(https://www.u-blox.com/sites/default/files/ZED-F9P_IntegrationManual_%28UBX-18010802%29.pdf), 
the recommended antenna should be between 30dB and 40dB of gain.


Additional note: ublox is releasing an eval board (p/n C099-F9P) which 
is similar to the sparkfun board, except a less annoying form factor 
(can work as a standalone thing, or fit on an arduino), additional 
interface options (wifi and bluetooth, pretty useful if you're doing 
RTK), less annoying connectors (SMA), and ships with the ublox 
multi-band antenna ... all for $50 more than the sparkfun, according to 
digi-key. They're not available yet, but I imagine the will be soon. See 
https://www.u-blox.com/en/product/c099-f9p-application-board#tab-documentation-resources 
for more details.


On a vaguely related note, I wonder if it would be possible to retrofit 
something like a AE6RV GPSDO with one of these. The footprint is pretty 
different (and there's a big pile of ground/thermal connections on the 
bottom of the new chip), but it seems like the actual electrical 
interface is probably the same in the important ways, so it might be 
possible to make an adapter board, maybe...


-j

On 1/21/19 8:32 AM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
enough
to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The gotcha
is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As we 
have
found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas range
from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is not
the best way to do things if you are in an urban area.

There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort of 
antenna
bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the module’s 
bias setup
that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin can 
have
main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
antenna bias,
that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
eliminates a
number of the new ones.

If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick from 
on eBay.
They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
likely
to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to be 
sold
by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
Making
sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are extensive 
stories
in the archives …..

Bob


On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:

What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
once?
My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.

--- Graham

==

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  wrote:


If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

 From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:

1) The device *does* have a position hold capability

2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns

resolution?

3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.

4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if

it is multi-band for the other systems.

5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.

6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.

Again, all from a quick read ….

Bob


On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:

Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a

board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2
data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1
time pulse output.

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Taking a quick look at what’s in view right now, the GPS L2C population is 
about half of the total. 
The L5 population is about half of the L2C group. No idea if that is true of 
the entire fleet.
Also no idea if my snow covered antennas are throwing things off a bit. 

All of the Glonass sats in view seem to be putting out both L1 and L2. They all 
seem to have the
same “format” flags on them.  Again, no idea if that represents anything or 
not. Glonass L3 is
enabled on the receiver. I see no indication in the tables if it’s doing 
anything or not. Probably 
a firmware bug that I can fix for a chunk of change ….could also be pilot 
error. 

I’m too cheap to have an Galileo upgrade on the gear I have here now. No idea 
about 
that side of things. 

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2019, at 12:17 PM, Ole Petter Rønningen  
> wrote:
> 
> Indeed. Getting a *quality* antenna with that coverage will likely be a more 
> costly affair than getting the actual receiver..
> 
> Of course, a cheap puck-style antenna is an option, but I am curious as to 
> what improvements will actually be observed, at least for the time being - 
> IIRC only about half of the sats transmit L2C..
> 
> Ole
> 
>> 21. jan. 2019 kl. 17:32 skrev Bob kb8tq :
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
>> enough 
>> to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The 
>> gotcha 
>> is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As 
>> we have
>> found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas 
>> range 
>> from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is 
>> not 
>> the best way to do things if you are in an urban area. 
>> 
>> There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort 
>> of antenna
>> bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the 
>> module’s bias setup
>> that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin 
>> can have
>> main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
>> antenna bias,
>> that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
>> eliminates a 
>> number of the new ones. 
>> 
>> If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick 
>> from on eBay. 
>> They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
>> likely 
>> to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to be 
>> sold
>> by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
>> Making
>> sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are extensive 
>> stories
>> in the archives …..
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
>>> 
>>> What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
>>> once?
>>> My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.
>>> 
>>> --- Graham
>>> 
>>> ==
>>> 
 On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  
 wrote:
 
 If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
 ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
 SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
 
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
> 
> 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
> 
> 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns
 resolution?
> 
> 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
> 
> 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if
 it is multi-band for the other systems.
> 
> 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
> 
> 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
> 
> Again, all from a quick read ….
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
>> 
>> Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a
 board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2
 data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
 support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1
 time pulse output.
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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 http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Michael Wouters]

If you scroll down to the bottom of the product pages for the zed-f9x
modules, you'll see the 'ANN-MB', a L1/L2/E5b antenna that ublox is
presumably making to go with the ZED-F9. It's still marked 'preorder'

Cheers
Michael




On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 at 6:00 am, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> To be more precise, what you want is a L1/L2/L5 triple band antenna.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 21, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is
> wide enough
> > to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The
> gotcha
> > is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna.
> As we have
> > found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2
> antennas range
> > from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna
> is not
> > the best way to do things if you are in an urban area.
> >
> > There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what
> sort of antenna
> > bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the
> module’s bias setup
> > that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF
> pin can have
> > main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it
> for antenna bias,
> > that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also
> eliminates a
> > number of the new ones.
> >
> > If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to
> pick from on eBay.
> > They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also
> is likely
> > to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems
> to be sold
> > by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a
> while. Making
> > sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are
> extensive stories
> > in the archives …..
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >> On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the
> systems at
> >> once?
> >> My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS
> system.
> >>
> >> --- Graham
> >>
> >> ==
> >>
> >> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
> >>> ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
> >>> SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>  Hi
> 
>  From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
> 
>  1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
> 
>  2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns
> >>> resolution?
> 
>  3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
> 
>  4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read
> if
> >>> it is multi-band for the other systems.
> 
>  5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
> 
>  6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
> 
>  Again, all from a quick read ….
> 
>  Bob
> 
> > On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> >
> > Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a
> >>> board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks
> L1/L2
> >>> data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed
> position
> >>> support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P
> has 1
> >>> time pulse output.
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> 
> 
>  ___
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>  and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
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> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[MLewis]

Like these?
http://www.tallysman.com/index.php/gnss/products/antennas-triple-band/

On 21/01/2019 12:33 PM, Bob kb8tq wrote:

Hi

To be more precise, what you want is a L1/L2/L5 triple band antenna.

Bob


On Jan 21, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
enough
to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The gotcha
is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As we 
have
found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas range
from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is not
the best way to do things if you are in an urban area.

There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort of 
antenna
bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the module’s 
bias setup
that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin can 
have
main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
antenna bias,
that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
eliminates a
number of the new ones.

If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick from 
on eBay.
They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
likely
to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to be 
sold
by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
Making
sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are extensive 
stories
in the archives …..

Bob


On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:

What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
once?
My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.

--- Graham

==

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  wrote:


If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

Hi

 From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:

1) The device *does* have a position hold capability

2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns

resolution?

3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.

4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if

it is multi-band for the other systems.

5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.

6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.

Again, all from a quick read ….

Bob


On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:

Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a

board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2
data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1
time pulse output.

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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob via time-nuts]

Hi
    Just purchased one of the 100 bux  10 MHz/1pps GPS units.  Seems to fire up 
and lock ok, but wondering if anyone else has experience with these rascals.  
Bought mine from an Amazon source.  I've got it hooked up to my HP Hi Rez 
counter (can't recall the model number)  Have not had time to compare it to my 
Rubidium Scheme.
    Bob, KE6F


-Original Message-
From: Bob kb8tq 
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement 

Sent: Sun, Jan 20, 2019 10:10 pm
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

Hi

From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:

1) The device *does* have a position hold capability 

2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns resolution? 

3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS. 

4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if it is 
multi-band for the other systems.

5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.

6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.

Again, all from a quick read ….

Bob

> On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a board 
> ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2 data.  
> It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position support 
> along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).  Looks like the F9P has 1 time pulse 
> output.
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> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Ole Petter Rønningen]

Indeed. Getting a *quality* antenna with that coverage will likely be a more 
costly affair than getting the actual receiver..

Of course, a cheap puck-style antenna is an option, but I am curious as to what 
improvements will actually be observed, at least for the time being - IIRC only 
about half of the sats transmit L2C..

Ole

> 21. jan. 2019 kl. 17:32 skrev Bob kb8tq :
> 
> Hi
> 
> Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
> enough 
> to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The gotcha 
> is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As we 
> have
> found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas 
> range 
> from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is 
> not 
> the best way to do things if you are in an urban area. 
> 
> There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort of 
> antenna
> bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the 
> module’s bias setup
> that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin 
> can have
> main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
> antenna bias,
> that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
> eliminates a 
> number of the new ones. 
> 
> If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick 
> from on eBay. 
> They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
> likely 
> to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to be 
> sold
> by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
> Making
> sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are extensive 
> stories
> in the archives …..
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
>> 
>> What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
>> once?
>> My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.
>> 
>> --- Graham
>> 
>> ==
>> 
>>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  wrote:
>>> 
>>> If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
>>> ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
>>> SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
>>> 
 On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
 
 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
 
 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns
>>> resolution?
 
 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
 
 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if
>>> it is multi-band for the other systems.
 
 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
 
 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
 
 Again, all from a quick read ….
 
 Bob
 
> On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a
>>> board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2
>>> data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
>>> support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1
>>> time pulse output.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
 and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

To be more precise, what you want is a L1/L2/L5 triple band antenna.

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2019, at 11:32 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
> enough 
> to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The gotcha 
> is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As we 
> have
> found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas 
> range 
> from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is 
> not 
> the best way to do things if you are in an urban area. 
> 
> There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort of 
> antenna
> bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the 
> module’s bias setup
> that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin 
> can have
> main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
> antenna bias,
> that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
> eliminates a 
> number of the new ones. 
> 
> If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick 
> from on eBay. 
> They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
> likely 
> to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to be 
> sold
> by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
> Making
> sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are extensive 
> stories
> in the archives …..
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
>> 
>> What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
>> once?
>> My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.
>> 
>> --- Graham
>> 
>> ==
>> 
>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  wrote:
>> 
>>> If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
>>> ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
>>> SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
 
 Hi
 
 From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
 
 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
 
 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns
>>> resolution?
 
 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
 
 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if
>>> it is multi-band for the other systems.
 
 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
 
 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
 
 Again, all from a quick read ….
 
 Bob
 
> On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a
>>> board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2
>>> data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
>>> support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1
>>> time pulse output.
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
 
 
 ___
 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
 To unsubscribe, go to
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>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Based on the F9P data sheet, you will need an L1 / L2 antenna that is wide 
enough 
to get the Galileo E5B as well as the Glonass L1OF and L2OF bands. The gotcha 
is that (so far) I have not found a gain number for the target antenna. As we 
have
found on other modules, you do want to get the right gain. L1/L2 antennas range 
from 50+ db down to below 30 db. Simply tacking a pad on a 50 db antenna is not 
the best way to do things if you are in an urban area. 

There also is the issue of powering the antenna. It is not clear what sort of 
antenna
bias circuit the SparkFun module has on it. If it simply is using the module’s 
bias setup
that also could be an issue. Max Vcc on the module is 3.6V. The VCC_RF pin can 
have
main Vcc - 0.1V max on it. If that *really* means that 3.3V is about it for 
antenna bias,
that eliminates roughly 100% of all the used antennas out there. It also 
eliminates a 
number of the new ones. 

If you put in an external bias setup, there are a lot of antennas to pick from 
on eBay. 
They come and go. The used stuff generally will be 12V powered. It also is 
likely 
to have a pretty good data sheet on it. The new stuff from China seems to be 
sold
by a variety of people who pop up for a while and then go away for a while. 
Making
sure of what you are getting is a bit tough as a result. There are extensive 
stories
in the archives …..

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2019, at 10:21 AM, Graham / KE9H  wrote:
> 
> What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
> once?
> My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.
> 
> --- Graham
> 
> ==
> 
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  wrote:
> 
>> If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
>> ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
>> SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
>> 
>> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
>>> 
>>> 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
>>> 
>>> 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns
>> resolution?
>>> 
>>> 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
>>> 
>>> 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if
>> it is multi-band for the other systems.
>>> 
>>> 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
>>> 
>>> 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
>>> 
>>> Again, all from a quick read ….
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
 
 Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a
>> board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2
>> data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
>> support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1
>> time pulse output.
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 time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
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>>> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Graham / KE9H]

What kind of antenna is needed to simultaneously hear all of the systems at
once?
My PCTel GPS antenna has a filter that limits it to only the US GPS system.

--- Graham

==

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 4:01 AM Dustin Marquess  wrote:

> If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
> ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
> SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.
>
> On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
> >
> > 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
> >
> > 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns
> resolution?
> >
> > 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
> >
> > 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if
> it is multi-band for the other systems.
> >
> > 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
> >
> > 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
> >
> > Again, all from a quick read ….
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> > >
> > > Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a
> board ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2
> data.  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position
> support along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1
> time pulse output.
> > > ___
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> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Ok, so the “product summary” page on DigiKey very clearly shows the 
frequency coverage information. If that data sheet was on SparkFun ….
I must have gone right past it.

The equivalent F9T sheet starts out right at the top talking about correcting 
ionosphere delay to deliver better timing. One would *assume* the F9P 
does the same thing. It never seems to show up in quite the same big bold
print….

Bob

> On Jan 21, 2019, at 8:44 AM, Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
> Hi
> 
> 
>> On Jan 21, 2019, at 1:41 AM, Mark Sims > > wrote:
>> 
>>> It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if it is 
>>> multi-band for the other systems.
>> 
>> Here's what they say it supports:
>> 
>> 184-channel u-blox F9 engine 
>> GPS L1C/A L2C, 
>> GLO L1OF L2OF, 
>> GAL E1B/C E5b, 
>> BDS B1I B2I, 
>> QZSS L1C/A L2C
> 
> If that’s in the docs on the module, I missed it. My concern is the frequency 
> range of the front end 
> SAW’s (that are external to the chip set). 
> 
>> 
>> Here's the link to the Sparkfun device.  I think it uses a u.FL antenna 
>> connector.
>> https://www.sparkfun.com/products/15136 
>> 
> 
> Yup and they aren’t crazy expensive compared to the module. The usual auction 
> sites also have
> the same sort of thing for a bit less money.
> 
> Bob
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Dustin Marquess]

If DigiKey's pricing is accurate, the ZED-F9T is $13.89 more than a
ZED-F9P.  I would have gladly paid $14 more for a version of the
SparkFun board using the T(iming) version instead :(.

On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 12:10 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:
>
> 1) The device *does* have a position hold capability
>
> 2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns resolution?
>
> 3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS.
>
> 4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if it is 
> multi-band for the other systems.
>
> 5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.
>
> 6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.
>
> Again, all from a quick read ….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> >
> > Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a board 
> > ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2 data. 
> >  It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position support 
> > along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1 time 
> > pulse output.
> > ___
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> > To unsubscribe, go to 
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
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[time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Mark Sims]

>  It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if it is 
> multi-band for the other systems.

Here's what they say it supports:

184-channel u-blox F9 engine 
GPS L1C/A L2C, 
GLO L1OF L2OF, 
GAL E1B/C E5b, 
BDS B1I B2I, 
QZSS L1C/A L2C

Here's the link to the Sparkfun device.  I think it uses a u.FL antenna 
connector.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/15136
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Re: [time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

From a *very* quick read of the doc’s:

1) The device *does* have a position hold capability 

2) There is some level of data on the time pulse. It it only 1 ns resolution? 

3) It does appear to support Galileo and Glonas in addition to GPS. 

4) It is clearly multi-band for GPS. It is unclear from a quick read if it is 
multi-band for the other systems.

5) If you get one, make sure you have the RF cable connector it needs.

6) I have not (yet) found a recommendation for the antenna gain.

Again, all from a quick read ….

Bob

> On Jan 20, 2019, at 5:42 PM, Mark Sims  wrote:
> 
> Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a board 
> ($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2 data.  
> It outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position support 
> along with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1 time 
> pulse output.
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[time-nuts] Ublox F9P multi-band GPS receiver

[Mark Sims]

Sparkfun is now selling the Ublox F9P L1/L2 GPS receiver module on a board 
($219).  The F9P supports GPS/Galileo/Glonass/Beidou and tracks L1/L2 data.  It 
outputs carrier phase data and has survey-in and fixed position support along 
with RTK support (10 mm accuracy).   Looks like the F9P has 1 time pulse output.
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