Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts,

I'm going to try a two antenna approach - parts are on order.

Buying a 2nd board vs. trying to implement a low-noise amplifier is a wash
for the cost
for the 2nd audio board.

It will require a few board mods - but they are simple.

When I have some interesting results, I will publish them to the group.

Yes, good if not great thread here - have enjoyed the discussion and hope
to see some good
results.

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 11:40 AM Andy Talbot  wrote:

> That doesn't appear to give you 1/4 the base sampling rate as you suggest
> with "... to sample at 4 times the desired rate..."
> I do something similar on a 1kHz tone, generating I/Q at 1kHz sampling rate
> on a bandwidth up to 500Hz, ie 750 - 1250Hz
> Samples at 4kHz are S1, S2, S3, S4
> Then  I = S1 + S2 - S3 - S4
>  Q = S1 - S2 - S3 + S4   at 1kHz sampling, centred on 1kHz tone
>
>
> See http://g4jnt.com/Coherent_LF_Receiver.pdf where the technique is used
> in a coherent LF receiver.
>
> Andy
> www.g4jnt.com
>
>
>
> On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 02:17, jimlux  wrote:
>
> > On 10/24/20 3:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
> >
> >
> > The classic way to get I/Q is to sample at 4 times the desired rate,
> > then, given that your input samples are x(1),x(2),x(3),x(4), etc. the
> > I/Q streams are
> >
> > I(1) = X(1)
> > Q(1) = X(2)
> > I(2) = -X(3)
> > Q(2) = -X(4)
> > I(3) = X(5)
> > Q(3) = X(6)
> > I(4) = -X(7)
> > Q(4) = -X(8)
> >
> > and so forth.
> >
> > This will put your signal right in the middle of the sampling bandwidth.
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Andy Talbot]

That doesn't appear to give you 1/4 the base sampling rate as you suggest
with "... to sample at 4 times the desired rate..."
I do something similar on a 1kHz tone, generating I/Q at 1kHz sampling rate
on a bandwidth up to 500Hz, ie 750 - 1250Hz
Samples at 4kHz are S1, S2, S3, S4
Then  I = S1 + S2 - S3 - S4
 Q = S1 - S2 - S3 + S4   at 1kHz sampling, centred on 1kHz tone


See http://g4jnt.com/Coherent_LF_Receiver.pdf where the technique is used
in a coherent LF receiver.

Andy
www.g4jnt.com



On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 02:17, jimlux  wrote:

> On 10/24/20 3:53 PM, paul swed wrote:
>
>
> The classic way to get I/Q is to sample at 4 times the desired rate,
> then, given that your input samples are x(1),x(2),x(3),x(4), etc. the
> I/Q streams are
>
> I(1) = X(1)
> Q(1) = X(2)
> I(2) = -X(3)
> Q(2) = -X(4)
> I(3) = X(5)
> Q(3) = X(6)
> I(4) = -X(7)
> Q(4) = -X(8)
>
> and so forth.
>
> This will put your signal right in the middle of the sampling bandwidth.
>
>
>
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> and follow the instructions there.
>


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

Thanks everyone for the responses. Enough for now. Time to make anything
happen.
Will let you know and perhaps start a new thread around this.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 10:17 PM Graham / KE9H 
wrote:

> Paul:
>
> The easiest way to convert a single sample into an I-Q representation is to
> have a two phase local oscillator.
> You multiply the incoming signal against the primary phase output of the
> oscillator for the I channel,
> and multiply the same sample against the 90 degree offset output for the Q
> channel.
>
> The quadrature oscillator can be as simple as two sine look-up tables,
> whose entries are shifted by 90 degrees.
> The only math is in the sample multiply, and creating the look up tables to
> start with.
>
> If there is a ratio of integers relationship between the sampling rate and
> the desired local oscillator frequency, then you can get a real clean
> implementation with reasonably small look-up tables.  When running there is
> no transcendental math involved, just a simple multiply.
>
> --- Graham
>
> ==
>
> On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 7:37 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
> > Antenna and filtering are not a problem for me. I use the 10' X 10'
> square
> > loop and about 800' of wire with a cap to resonate at 60 KHz and then a
> > preamp really to drive 140' of coax. Currently using a modified KD2BD
> > receiver frontend but using a 350 Hz xtal filter. Yes indeed that hamfest
> > find was amazing.
> >
> > Looks like you have to build a costa loop SDR. Looked at lots of
> documents.
> > My first question to the group.
> > Can a single incoming sample be converted to I & Q through math. I sort
> of
> > think so. The original sample might be I and then use math to make Q.
> That
> > would save an entire analog chain. The teensy has a single chain for mic
> > level input. Though it does feed left and right channels. Granted there
> are
> > two audio chains at line level.
> >
> > The teensy has a NCO that can create a quadrature output. The alternate
> > would be to use that to drive analog switches as a multiplier to form I
> & Q
> > samples.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Graham / KE9H]

Paul:

The easiest way to convert a single sample into an I-Q representation is to
have a two phase local oscillator.
You multiply the incoming signal against the primary phase output of the
oscillator for the I channel,
and multiply the same sample against the 90 degree offset output for the Q
channel.

The quadrature oscillator can be as simple as two sine look-up tables,
whose entries are shifted by 90 degrees.
The only math is in the sample multiply, and creating the look up tables to
start with.

If there is a ratio of integers relationship between the sampling rate and
the desired local oscillator frequency, then you can get a real clean
implementation with reasonably small look-up tables.  When running there is
no transcendental math involved, just a simple multiply.

--- Graham

==

On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 7:37 PM paul swed  wrote:

> Antenna and filtering are not a problem for me. I use the 10' X 10' square
> loop and about 800' of wire with a cap to resonate at 60 KHz and then a
> preamp really to drive 140' of coax. Currently using a modified KD2BD
> receiver frontend but using a 350 Hz xtal filter. Yes indeed that hamfest
> find was amazing.
>
> Looks like you have to build a costa loop SDR. Looked at lots of documents.
> My first question to the group.
> Can a single incoming sample be converted to I & Q through math. I sort of
> think so. The original sample might be I and then use math to make Q. That
> would save an entire analog chain. The teensy has a single chain for mic
> level input. Though it does feed left and right channels. Granted there are
> two audio chains at line level.
>
> The teensy has a NCO that can create a quadrature output. The alternate
> would be to use that to drive analog switches as a multiplier to form I & Q
> samples.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
>
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[jimlux]

On 10/24/20 3:53 PM, paul swed wrote:

Antenna and filtering are not a problem for me. I use the 10' X 10' square
loop and about 800' of wire with a cap to resonate at 60 KHz and then a
preamp really to drive 140' of coax. Currently using a modified KD2BD
receiver frontend but using a 350 Hz xtal filter. Yes indeed that hamfest
find was amazing.

Looks like you have to build a costa loop SDR. Looked at lots of documents.
My first question to the group.
Can a single incoming sample be converted to I & Q through math. I sort of
think so. The original sample might be I and then use math to make Q. That
would save an entire analog chain. The teensy has a single chain for mic
level input. Though it does feed left and right channels. Granted there are
two audio chains at line level.

The teensy has a NCO that can create a quadrature output. The alternate
would be to use that to drive analog switches as a multiplier to form I & Q
samples.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


The classic way to get I/Q is to sample at 4 times the desired rate, 
then, given that your input samples are x(1),x(2),x(3),x(4), etc. the 
I/Q streams are


I(1) = X(1)
Q(1) = X(2)
I(2) = -X(3)
Q(2) = -X(4)
I(3) = X(5)
Q(3) = X(6)
I(4) = -X(7)
Q(4) = -X(8)

and so forth.

This will put your signal right in the middle of the sampling bandwidth.



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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

Antenna and filtering are not a problem for me. I use the 10' X 10' square
loop and about 800' of wire with a cap to resonate at 60 KHz and then a
preamp really to drive 140' of coax. Currently using a modified KD2BD
receiver frontend but using a 350 Hz xtal filter. Yes indeed that hamfest
find was amazing.

Looks like you have to build a costa loop SDR. Looked at lots of documents.
My first question to the group.
Can a single incoming sample be converted to I & Q through math. I sort of
think so. The original sample might be I and then use math to make Q. That
would save an entire analog chain. The teensy has a single chain for mic
level input. Though it does feed left and right channels. Granted there are
two audio chains at line level.

The teensy has a NCO that can create a quadrature output. The alternate
would be to use that to drive analog switches as a multiplier to form I & Q
samples.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Oct 24, 2020 at 2:05 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts and Paul Again,
>
> Paul - Have you thought about adding a 2nd audio board for the orthogonal
> antenna?:
>
> https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy3_audio.html
>
> I think adding a 2nd audio board could work for this possibly - of course
> with the correct antenna set up.
>
> Note the setup they have further down that page for 4-channel audio
> (Quad).  I think something similar could
> work for BPSK.
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 8:34 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Time Nuts and Paul,
> >
> > Glad to hear you're making progress - of course, as Chris Howard
> mentioned
> > earlier - it's all based on this as a starting point:
> >
> > https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77
> >
> > and Chris' work is here:
> >
> > https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr
> >
> > Those sites are good to look at and review as well.
> >
> > I still think some work will be needed to get a good signal in on the
> Line
> > In channel.
> >
> > 73's,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 6:45 PM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> >> John I was looking for a lot of things around BPSK and SDR and more.
> >> Had not hit this repository yet. But it has the piles of functions that
> >> would be useful. I noted it had a I & Q oscillator. So maybe the way
> this
> >> all works is you grab these functions and line them up. In looking at
> the
> >> wwvb SDR for AM mentioned here by Chris thats what I had started to
> >> understand.
> >> Really slowly getting the barest grasp on what a project might look
> like.
> >> With respect to the wwvb AM SDR receiver it does not look like any of
> the
> >> code would be used for solving the BPSK problem. That is not throwing
> >> stones by the way. It did nicely prove that a signal could come in and
> be
> >> processed through numbers of steps. It does work.
> >> My next step is to keep learning and then start to tinker with some of
> the
> >> modules in this library or even simpler the audio library for the pjrc
> >> shield. Audio in digitise and then back out. Much like the super simple
> >> arduino blinky program you have to start someplace.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 7:55 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hello Time Nuts,
> >> >
> >> > The code that has been previously discussed in this thread is posted
> >> here,
> >> > in case some of you didn't know and could be wondering about it:
> >> >
> >> > https://github.com/chipaudette/OpenAudio_ArduinoLibrary
> >> >
> >> > It's for the Teensy boards and WWV(B/H) SDR.
> >> >
> >> > 73's,
> >> > John
> >> > AJ6BC
> >> >
> >> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:27 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hello Time Nuts,
> >> > >
> >> > > FYI:  Teensy NTP server found here:
> >> > > https://github.com/ddrown/teensy-ntp
> >> > >
> >> > > 73's,
> >> > > John
> >> > > AJ6BC
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 1:16 PM paul swed 
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> The teensy arrived and was easily installed in the arduino IDE.
> >> Worked
> >> > >> right off the bat.
> >> > >> The wiring of the A/D and the TFT display is a bit less clear. I
> have
> >> > all
> >> > >> of the details but need to go over them carefully. The teensy 4.0
> is
> >> > >> slightly different in the pins used as compared to the various
> >> > >> documentation on the wwvb receiver. I will guess this is going to
> >> have
> >> > an
> >> > >> effect in the actual program.
> >> > >> Regards
> >> > >> Paul
> >> > >> WB8TSL
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 12:06 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> > >> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> > Hello Time Nuts,
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Maybe this should be added to this thread - this page is actually
> >> > pretty
> >> > >> > good:
> >> > >> 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts and Paul,

Glad to hear you're making progress - of course, as Chris Howard mentioned
earlier - it's all based on this as a starting point:

https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77

and Chris' work is here:

https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr

Those sites are good to look at and review as well.

I still think some work will be needed to get a good signal in on the Line
In channel.

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 6:45 PM paul swed  wrote:

> John I was looking for a lot of things around BPSK and SDR and more.
> Had not hit this repository yet. But it has the piles of functions that
> would be useful. I noted it had a I & Q oscillator. So maybe the way this
> all works is you grab these functions and line them up. In looking at the
> wwvb SDR for AM mentioned here by Chris thats what I had started to
> understand.
> Really slowly getting the barest grasp on what a project might look like.
> With respect to the wwvb AM SDR receiver it does not look like any of the
> code would be used for solving the BPSK problem. That is not throwing
> stones by the way. It did nicely prove that a signal could come in and be
> processed through numbers of steps. It does work.
> My next step is to keep learning and then start to tinker with some of the
> modules in this library or even simpler the audio library for the pjrc
> shield. Audio in digitise and then back out. Much like the super simple
> arduino blinky program you have to start someplace.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 7:55 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Time Nuts,
> >
> > The code that has been previously discussed in this thread is posted
> here,
> > in case some of you didn't know and could be wondering about it:
> >
> > https://github.com/chipaudette/OpenAudio_ArduinoLibrary
> >
> > It's for the Teensy boards and WWV(B/H) SDR.
> >
> > 73's,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:27 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Time Nuts,
> > >
> > > FYI:  Teensy NTP server found here:
> > > https://github.com/ddrown/teensy-ntp
> > >
> > > 73's,
> > > John
> > > AJ6BC
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 1:16 PM paul swed  wrote:
> > >
> > >> The teensy arrived and was easily installed in the arduino IDE. Worked
> > >> right off the bat.
> > >> The wiring of the A/D and the TFT display is a bit less clear. I have
> > all
> > >> of the details but need to go over them carefully. The teensy 4.0 is
> > >> slightly different in the pins used as compared to the various
> > >> documentation on the wwvb receiver. I will guess this is going to have
> > an
> > >> effect in the actual program.
> > >> Regards
> > >> Paul
> > >> WB8TSL
> > >>
> > >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 12:06 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > >> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hello Time Nuts,
> > >> >
> > >> > Maybe this should be added to this thread - this page is actually
> > pretty
> > >> > good:
> > >> >
> > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
> > >> >
> > >> > 73's,
> > >> > John
> > >> > AJ6BC
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:50 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > >> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Hello Time Nuts,
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Paul, I haven't gone over in fine detail of how the multipsk
> > software
> > >> is
> > >> > > working - so I'd like to answer with that caveat if that's OK.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I thought it was more interesting that I got anything working as
> far
> > >> as
> > >> > > 60kHz with my existing OpenHPSDR rig AND my default antenna.
> > >> > > The system wasn't really designed for that - and it worked.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > I'll dig into some of the details and report back - since the time
> > >> > > information is all that is needed for clock synchronization - I
> > think
> > >> the
> > >> > > easiest method available is more than likely what was done.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > It agrees with the GPS feed from Themis - so, that's a good check.
> > >> Also,
> > >> > > Themis is driving the reference clock for the HPSDR rig.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > 73's,
> > >> > > John
> > >> > > AJ6BC
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:20 PM paul swed 
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> John I looked at what you sent. I assume its decoding the am time
> > >> signal
> > >> > >> is
> > >> > >> that correct?
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Chris Howard 
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > That's a fair assessment.  I'm really not very far into SDR
> > >> > programming,
> > >> > >> > would like to learn more.
> > >> > >> >
> > >> > >> > I was working with someone who gave me a way forward toward
> > >> > >> > using the same hardware to do the BPSK demodulation, but I want
> > >> > >> > to get his OK before I spread 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts and Paul Again,

Paul - Have you thought about adding a 2nd audio board for the orthogonal
antenna?:

https://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy3_audio.html

I think adding a 2nd audio board could work for this possibly - of course
with the correct antenna set up.

Note the setup they have further down that page for 4-channel audio
(Quad).  I think something similar could
work for BPSK.

73's,
John
AJ6BC



On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 8:34 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts and Paul,
>
> Glad to hear you're making progress - of course, as Chris Howard mentioned
> earlier - it's all based on this as a starting point:
>
> https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77
>
> and Chris' work is here:
>
> https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr
>
> Those sites are good to look at and review as well.
>
> I still think some work will be needed to get a good signal in on the Line
> In channel.
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 6:45 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
>> John I was looking for a lot of things around BPSK and SDR and more.
>> Had not hit this repository yet. But it has the piles of functions that
>> would be useful. I noted it had a I & Q oscillator. So maybe the way this
>> all works is you grab these functions and line them up. In looking at the
>> wwvb SDR for AM mentioned here by Chris thats what I had started to
>> understand.
>> Really slowly getting the barest grasp on what a project might look like.
>> With respect to the wwvb AM SDR receiver it does not look like any of the
>> code would be used for solving the BPSK problem. That is not throwing
>> stones by the way. It did nicely prove that a signal could come in and be
>> processed through numbers of steps. It does work.
>> My next step is to keep learning and then start to tinker with some of the
>> modules in this library or even simpler the audio library for the pjrc
>> shield. Audio in digitise and then back out. Much like the super simple
>> arduino blinky program you have to start someplace.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 7:55 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello Time Nuts,
>> >
>> > The code that has been previously discussed in this thread is posted
>> here,
>> > in case some of you didn't know and could be wondering about it:
>> >
>> > https://github.com/chipaudette/OpenAudio_ArduinoLibrary
>> >
>> > It's for the Teensy boards and WWV(B/H) SDR.
>> >
>> > 73's,
>> > John
>> > AJ6BC
>> >
>> > On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:27 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello Time Nuts,
>> > >
>> > > FYI:  Teensy NTP server found here:
>> > > https://github.com/ddrown/teensy-ntp
>> > >
>> > > 73's,
>> > > John
>> > > AJ6BC
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 1:16 PM paul swed 
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> The teensy arrived and was easily installed in the arduino IDE.
>> Worked
>> > >> right off the bat.
>> > >> The wiring of the A/D and the TFT display is a bit less clear. I have
>> > all
>> > >> of the details but need to go over them carefully. The teensy 4.0 is
>> > >> slightly different in the pins used as compared to the various
>> > >> documentation on the wwvb receiver. I will guess this is going to
>> have
>> > an
>> > >> effect in the actual program.
>> > >> Regards
>> > >> Paul
>> > >> WB8TSL
>> > >>
>> > >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 12:06 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> > >> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> > Hello Time Nuts,
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Maybe this should be added to this thread - this page is actually
>> > pretty
>> > >> > good:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
>> > >> >
>> > >> > 73's,
>> > >> > John
>> > >> > AJ6BC
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:50 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> > >> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>> > >> >
>> > >> > > Hello Time Nuts,
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > Paul, I haven't gone over in fine detail of how the multipsk
>> > software
>> > >> is
>> > >> > > working - so I'd like to answer with that caveat if that's OK.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > I thought it was more interesting that I got anything working as
>> far
>> > >> as
>> > >> > > 60kHz with my existing OpenHPSDR rig AND my default antenna.
>> > >> > > The system wasn't really designed for that - and it worked.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > I'll dig into some of the details and report back - since the
>> time
>> > >> > > information is all that is needed for clock synchronization - I
>> > think
>> > >> the
>> > >> > > easiest method available is more than likely what was done.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > It agrees with the GPS feed from Themis - so, that's a good
>> check.
>> > >> Also,
>> > >> > > Themis is driving the reference clock for the HPSDR rig.
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > 73's,
>> > >> > > John
>> > >> > > AJ6BC
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >
>> > >> 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

John I was looking for a lot of things around BPSK and SDR and more.
Had not hit this repository yet. But it has the piles of functions that
would be useful. I noted it had a I & Q oscillator. So maybe the way this
all works is you grab these functions and line them up. In looking at the
wwvb SDR for AM mentioned here by Chris thats what I had started to
understand.
Really slowly getting the barest grasp on what a project might look like.
With respect to the wwvb AM SDR receiver it does not look like any of the
code would be used for solving the BPSK problem. That is not throwing
stones by the way. It did nicely prove that a signal could come in and be
processed through numbers of steps. It does work.
My next step is to keep learning and then start to tinker with some of the
modules in this library or even simpler the audio library for the pjrc
shield. Audio in digitise and then back out. Much like the super simple
arduino blinky program you have to start someplace.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 7:55 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts,
>
> The code that has been previously discussed in this thread is posted here,
> in case some of you didn't know and could be wondering about it:
>
> https://github.com/chipaudette/OpenAudio_ArduinoLibrary
>
> It's for the Teensy boards and WWV(B/H) SDR.
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
> On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:27 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Time Nuts,
> >
> > FYI:  Teensy NTP server found here:
> > https://github.com/ddrown/teensy-ntp
> >
> > 73's,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 1:16 PM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> >> The teensy arrived and was easily installed in the arduino IDE. Worked
> >> right off the bat.
> >> The wiring of the A/D and the TFT display is a bit less clear. I have
> all
> >> of the details but need to go over them carefully. The teensy 4.0 is
> >> slightly different in the pins used as compared to the various
> >> documentation on the wwvb receiver. I will guess this is going to have
> an
> >> effect in the actual program.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 12:06 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Hello Time Nuts,
> >> >
> >> > Maybe this should be added to this thread - this page is actually
> pretty
> >> > good:
> >> >
> >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
> >> >
> >> > 73's,
> >> > John
> >> > AJ6BC
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:50 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Hello Time Nuts,
> >> > >
> >> > > Paul, I haven't gone over in fine detail of how the multipsk
> software
> >> is
> >> > > working - so I'd like to answer with that caveat if that's OK.
> >> > >
> >> > > I thought it was more interesting that I got anything working as far
> >> as
> >> > > 60kHz with my existing OpenHPSDR rig AND my default antenna.
> >> > > The system wasn't really designed for that - and it worked.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'll dig into some of the details and report back - since the time
> >> > > information is all that is needed for clock synchronization - I
> think
> >> the
> >> > > easiest method available is more than likely what was done.
> >> > >
> >> > > It agrees with the GPS feed from Themis - so, that's a good check.
> >> Also,
> >> > > Themis is driving the reference clock for the HPSDR rig.
> >> > >
> >> > > 73's,
> >> > > John
> >> > > AJ6BC
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:20 PM paul swed 
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> John I looked at what you sent. I assume its decoding the am time
> >> signal
> >> > >> is
> >> > >> that correct?
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Chris Howard 
> >> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > That's a fair assessment.  I'm really not very far into SDR
> >> > programming,
> >> > >> > would like to learn more.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > I was working with someone who gave me a way forward toward
> >> > >> > using the same hardware to do the BPSK demodulation, but I want
> >> > >> > to get his OK before I spread his stuff into this group or other
> >> > places.
> >> > >> > And I have not yet done anything with it yet myself.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > Chris
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> > On 10/13/20 9:06 AM, paul swed wrote:
> >> > >> > > The teensy is on order and downloaded the arduino plugin.
> >> > >> > > In looking at the code I should mention it does not appear to
> be
> >> a
> >> > I
> >> > >> > > sampling. Just a single stream I AM sampler. Though at 60 Khz.
> >> Its
> >> > >> > > essentially a diode with AGC and a slicer to determine a 1 or
> 0.
> >> No
> >> > >> > matter
> >> > >> > > a good start in the world of SDR. (At least I do not see an I
> >> > >> approach)
> >> > >> > > Regards
> >> > >> > > Paul
> >> > >> > >
> >> 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts,

The code that has been previously discussed in this thread is posted here,
in case some of you didn't know and could be wondering about it:

https://github.com/chipaudette/OpenAudio_ArduinoLibrary

It's for the Teensy boards and WWV(B/H) SDR.

73's,
John
AJ6BC

On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 12:27 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts,
>
> FYI:  Teensy NTP server found here:
> https://github.com/ddrown/teensy-ntp
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 1:16 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
>> The teensy arrived and was easily installed in the arduino IDE. Worked
>> right off the bat.
>> The wiring of the A/D and the TFT display is a bit less clear. I have all
>> of the details but need to go over them carefully. The teensy 4.0 is
>> slightly different in the pins used as compared to the various
>> documentation on the wwvb receiver. I will guess this is going to have an
>> effect in the actual program.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> WB8TSL
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 12:06 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello Time Nuts,
>> >
>> > Maybe this should be added to this thread - this page is actually pretty
>> > good:
>> >
>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
>> >
>> > 73's,
>> > John
>> > AJ6BC
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:50 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > > Hello Time Nuts,
>> > >
>> > > Paul, I haven't gone over in fine detail of how the multipsk software
>> is
>> > > working - so I'd like to answer with that caveat if that's OK.
>> > >
>> > > I thought it was more interesting that I got anything working as far
>> as
>> > > 60kHz with my existing OpenHPSDR rig AND my default antenna.
>> > > The system wasn't really designed for that - and it worked.
>> > >
>> > > I'll dig into some of the details and report back - since the time
>> > > information is all that is needed for clock synchronization - I think
>> the
>> > > easiest method available is more than likely what was done.
>> > >
>> > > It agrees with the GPS feed from Themis - so, that's a good check.
>> Also,
>> > > Themis is driving the reference clock for the HPSDR rig.
>> > >
>> > > 73's,
>> > > John
>> > > AJ6BC
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:20 PM paul swed 
>> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> John I looked at what you sent. I assume its decoding the am time
>> signal
>> > >> is
>> > >> that correct?
>> > >>
>> > >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Chris Howard 
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >> >
>> > >> > That's a fair assessment.  I'm really not very far into SDR
>> > programming,
>> > >> > would like to learn more.
>> > >> >
>> > >> > I was working with someone who gave me a way forward toward
>> > >> > using the same hardware to do the BPSK demodulation, but I want
>> > >> > to get his OK before I spread his stuff into this group or other
>> > places.
>> > >> > And I have not yet done anything with it yet myself.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > Chris
>> > >> >
>> > >> >
>> > >> > On 10/13/20 9:06 AM, paul swed wrote:
>> > >> > > The teensy is on order and downloaded the arduino plugin.
>> > >> > > In looking at the code I should mention it does not appear to be
>> a
>> > I
>> > >> > > sampling. Just a single stream I AM sampler. Though at 60 Khz.
>> Its
>> > >> > > essentially a diode with AGC and a slicer to determine a 1 or 0.
>> No
>> > >> > matter
>> > >> > > a good start in the world of SDR. (At least I do not see an I
>> > >> approach)
>> > >> > > Regards
>> > >> > > Paul
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:47 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> > >> > > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>> > >> > >
>> > >> > >> Paul,
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> Sure - even on my OpenHPSDR system using my vertical antenna -
>> I am
>> > >> > almost
>> > >> > >> able to decode WWVB (reliably) using the clock
>> > >> > >> program from:
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> http://f6cte.free.fr/index_anglais.htm
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> with no changes whatsoever.  If I 'fix' the antenna - I'm sure
>> > it'll
>> > >> > work
>> > >> > >> more reliably.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> Teensy is Arduino compatible - pretty sure you can use the
>> > tools/libs
>> > >> > >> fairly easily from Arduino - I don't have a Teensy (yet) but I
>> will
>> > >> > >> probably
>> > >> > >> get a kit like what's outlined in Chris's post and also here for
>> > the
>> > >> > people
>> > >> > >> that may not be in the US:
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77 (referenced by Chris in
>> his
>> > >> > post).
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> that describes the antenna circuit in more detail.
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> 73's,
>> > >> > >> John
>> > >> > >> AJ6BC
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:20 PM paul swed 
>> > >> wrote:
>> > >> > >>
>> > >> > >>> John
>> 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts,

FYI:  Teensy NTP server found here:
https://github.com/ddrown/teensy-ntp

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 1:16 PM paul swed  wrote:

> The teensy arrived and was easily installed in the arduino IDE. Worked
> right off the bat.
> The wiring of the A/D and the TFT display is a bit less clear. I have all
> of the details but need to go over them carefully. The teensy 4.0 is
> slightly different in the pins used as compared to the various
> documentation on the wwvb receiver. I will guess this is going to have an
> effect in the actual program.
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 12:06 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Time Nuts,
> >
> > Maybe this should be added to this thread - this page is actually pretty
> > good:
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
> >
> > 73's,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:50 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hello Time Nuts,
> > >
> > > Paul, I haven't gone over in fine detail of how the multipsk software
> is
> > > working - so I'd like to answer with that caveat if that's OK.
> > >
> > > I thought it was more interesting that I got anything working as far as
> > > 60kHz with my existing OpenHPSDR rig AND my default antenna.
> > > The system wasn't really designed for that - and it worked.
> > >
> > > I'll dig into some of the details and report back - since the time
> > > information is all that is needed for clock synchronization - I think
> the
> > > easiest method available is more than likely what was done.
> > >
> > > It agrees with the GPS feed from Themis - so, that's a good check.
> Also,
> > > Themis is driving the reference clock for the HPSDR rig.
> > >
> > > 73's,
> > > John
> > > AJ6BC
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:20 PM paul swed 
> wrote:
> > >
> > >> John I looked at what you sent. I assume its decoding the am time
> signal
> > >> is
> > >> that correct?
> > >>
> > >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Chris Howard 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > That's a fair assessment.  I'm really not very far into SDR
> > programming,
> > >> > would like to learn more.
> > >> >
> > >> > I was working with someone who gave me a way forward toward
> > >> > using the same hardware to do the BPSK demodulation, but I want
> > >> > to get his OK before I spread his stuff into this group or other
> > places.
> > >> > And I have not yet done anything with it yet myself.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > Chris
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > On 10/13/20 9:06 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > >> > > The teensy is on order and downloaded the arduino plugin.
> > >> > > In looking at the code I should mention it does not appear to be a
> > I
> > >> > > sampling. Just a single stream I AM sampler. Though at 60 Khz. Its
> > >> > > essentially a diode with AGC and a slicer to determine a 1 or 0.
> No
> > >> > matter
> > >> > > a good start in the world of SDR. (At least I do not see an I
> > >> approach)
> > >> > > Regards
> > >> > > Paul
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:47 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > >> > > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> Paul,
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Sure - even on my OpenHPSDR system using my vertical antenna - I
> am
> > >> > almost
> > >> > >> able to decode WWVB (reliably) using the clock
> > >> > >> program from:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> http://f6cte.free.fr/index_anglais.htm
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> with no changes whatsoever.  If I 'fix' the antenna - I'm sure
> > it'll
> > >> > work
> > >> > >> more reliably.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Teensy is Arduino compatible - pretty sure you can use the
> > tools/libs
> > >> > >> fairly easily from Arduino - I don't have a Teensy (yet) but I
> will
> > >> > >> probably
> > >> > >> get a kit like what's outlined in Chris's post and also here for
> > the
> > >> > people
> > >> > >> that may not be in the US:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77 (referenced by Chris in
> his
> > >> > post).
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> that describes the antenna circuit in more detail.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> 73's,
> > >> > >> John
> > >> > >> AJ6BC
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:20 PM paul swed 
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>> John
> > >> > >>> I would simply use any number of receivers and grab 60 KHz out
> of
> > >> one
> > >> > or
> > >> > >>> could use the IF at 10 KHz or 1 KHz. But more fun to use 60 KHz.
> > The
> > >> > cost
> > >> > >>> on the teensy components is very reasonable.
> > >> > >>> Regards
> > >> > >>> Paul
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:44 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > >> > >>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > >> > >>>
> > >> >  Hello Time Nuts,
> > >> > 
> > >> >  Chris - maybe you can share that if that's 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

The teensy arrived and was easily installed in the arduino IDE. Worked
right off the bat.
The wiring of the A/D and the TFT display is a bit less clear. I have all
of the details but need to go over them carefully. The teensy 4.0 is
slightly different in the pins used as compared to the various
documentation on the wwvb receiver. I will guess this is going to have an
effect in the actual program.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 12:06 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts,
>
> Maybe this should be added to this thread - this page is actually pretty
> good:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:50 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Hello Time Nuts,
> >
> > Paul, I haven't gone over in fine detail of how the multipsk software is
> > working - so I'd like to answer with that caveat if that's OK.
> >
> > I thought it was more interesting that I got anything working as far as
> > 60kHz with my existing OpenHPSDR rig AND my default antenna.
> > The system wasn't really designed for that - and it worked.
> >
> > I'll dig into some of the details and report back - since the time
> > information is all that is needed for clock synchronization - I think the
> > easiest method available is more than likely what was done.
> >
> > It agrees with the GPS feed from Themis - so, that's a good check.  Also,
> > Themis is driving the reference clock for the HPSDR rig.
> >
> > 73's,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:20 PM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> >> John I looked at what you sent. I assume its decoding the am time signal
> >> is
> >> that correct?
> >>
> >> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Chris Howard  wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> > That's a fair assessment.  I'm really not very far into SDR
> programming,
> >> > would like to learn more.
> >> >
> >> > I was working with someone who gave me a way forward toward
> >> > using the same hardware to do the BPSK demodulation, but I want
> >> > to get his OK before I spread his stuff into this group or other
> places.
> >> > And I have not yet done anything with it yet myself.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Chris
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On 10/13/20 9:06 AM, paul swed wrote:
> >> > > The teensy is on order and downloaded the arduino plugin.
> >> > > In looking at the code I should mention it does not appear to be a
> I
> >> > > sampling. Just a single stream I AM sampler. Though at 60 Khz. Its
> >> > > essentially a diode with AGC and a slicer to determine a 1 or 0. No
> >> > matter
> >> > > a good start in the world of SDR. (At least I do not see an I
> >> approach)
> >> > > Regards
> >> > > Paul
> >> > >
> >> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:47 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> > > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Paul,
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Sure - even on my OpenHPSDR system using my vertical antenna - I am
> >> > almost
> >> > >> able to decode WWVB (reliably) using the clock
> >> > >> program from:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> http://f6cte.free.fr/index_anglais.htm
> >> > >>
> >> > >> with no changes whatsoever.  If I 'fix' the antenna - I'm sure
> it'll
> >> > work
> >> > >> more reliably.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Teensy is Arduino compatible - pretty sure you can use the
> tools/libs
> >> > >> fairly easily from Arduino - I don't have a Teensy (yet) but I will
> >> > >> probably
> >> > >> get a kit like what's outlined in Chris's post and also here for
> the
> >> > people
> >> > >> that may not be in the US:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77 (referenced by Chris in his
> >> > post).
> >> > >>
> >> > >> that describes the antenna circuit in more detail.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> 73's,
> >> > >> John
> >> > >> AJ6BC
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:20 PM paul swed 
> >> wrote:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> John
> >> > >>> I would simply use any number of receivers and grab 60 KHz out of
> >> one
> >> > or
> >> > >>> could use the IF at 10 KHz or 1 KHz. But more fun to use 60 KHz.
> The
> >> > cost
> >> > >>> on the teensy components is very reasonable.
> >> > >>> Regards
> >> > >>> Paul
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:44 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> > >>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> >  Hello Time Nuts,
> >> > 
> >> >  Chris - maybe you can share that if that's something you can
> share
> >> > >> right
> >> >  now.
> >> > 
> >> >  Jim and Paul,
> >> > 
> >> >  Like Chris pointed out - on that audio board in the design he's
> >> worked
> >> > >>> on -
> >> >  the Line In has L and R channels - the input resistance is higher
> >> than
> >> > >>> for
> >> >  the mic input -
> >> >  but I suppose it's possible to try a BPSK implementation using
> >> that as
> >> > >> a
> >> >  starting point.  There's 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts,

Maybe this should be added to this thread - this page is actually pretty
good:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWVB

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:50 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts,
>
> Paul, I haven't gone over in fine detail of how the multipsk software is
> working - so I'd like to answer with that caveat if that's OK.
>
> I thought it was more interesting that I got anything working as far as
> 60kHz with my existing OpenHPSDR rig AND my default antenna.
> The system wasn't really designed for that - and it worked.
>
> I'll dig into some of the details and report back - since the time
> information is all that is needed for clock synchronization - I think the
> easiest method available is more than likely what was done.
>
> It agrees with the GPS feed from Themis - so, that's a good check.  Also,
> Themis is driving the reference clock for the HPSDR rig.
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:20 PM paul swed  wrote:
>
>> John I looked at what you sent. I assume its decoding the am time signal
>> is
>> that correct?
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Chris Howard  wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > That's a fair assessment.  I'm really not very far into SDR programming,
>> > would like to learn more.
>> >
>> > I was working with someone who gave me a way forward toward
>> > using the same hardware to do the BPSK demodulation, but I want
>> > to get his OK before I spread his stuff into this group or other places.
>> > And I have not yet done anything with it yet myself.
>> >
>> >
>> > Chris
>> >
>> >
>> > On 10/13/20 9:06 AM, paul swed wrote:
>> > > The teensy is on order and downloaded the arduino plugin.
>> > > In looking at the code I should mention it does not appear to be a I
>> > > sampling. Just a single stream I AM sampler. Though at 60 Khz. Its
>> > > essentially a diode with AGC and a slicer to determine a 1 or 0. No
>> > matter
>> > > a good start in the world of SDR. (At least I do not see an I
>> approach)
>> > > Regards
>> > > Paul
>> > >
>> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:47 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> > > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Paul,
>> > >>
>> > >> Sure - even on my OpenHPSDR system using my vertical antenna - I am
>> > almost
>> > >> able to decode WWVB (reliably) using the clock
>> > >> program from:
>> > >>
>> > >> http://f6cte.free.fr/index_anglais.htm
>> > >>
>> > >> with no changes whatsoever.  If I 'fix' the antenna - I'm sure it'll
>> > work
>> > >> more reliably.
>> > >>
>> > >> Teensy is Arduino compatible - pretty sure you can use the tools/libs
>> > >> fairly easily from Arduino - I don't have a Teensy (yet) but I will
>> > >> probably
>> > >> get a kit like what's outlined in Chris's post and also here for the
>> > people
>> > >> that may not be in the US:
>> > >>
>> > >> https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77 (referenced by Chris in his
>> > post).
>> > >>
>> > >> that describes the antenna circuit in more detail.
>> > >>
>> > >> 73's,
>> > >> John
>> > >> AJ6BC
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:20 PM paul swed 
>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> John
>> > >>> I would simply use any number of receivers and grab 60 KHz out of
>> one
>> > or
>> > >>> could use the IF at 10 KHz or 1 KHz. But more fun to use 60 KHz. The
>> > cost
>> > >>> on the teensy components is very reasonable.
>> > >>> Regards
>> > >>> Paul
>> > >>>
>> > >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:44 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> > >>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> >  Hello Time Nuts,
>> > 
>> >  Chris - maybe you can share that if that's something you can share
>> > >> right
>> >  now.
>> > 
>> >  Jim and Paul,
>> > 
>> >  Like Chris pointed out - on that audio board in the design he's
>> worked
>> > >>> on -
>> >  the Line In has L and R channels - the input resistance is higher
>> than
>> > >>> for
>> >  the mic input -
>> >  but I suppose it's possible to try a BPSK implementation using
>> that as
>> > >> a
>> >  starting point.  There's no separate gain stage for the Line In
>> inputs
>> > >>> like
>> >  for the mic - but
>> >  it could work - a small preamp that works with the input impedance
>> of
>> > >> the
>> >  Line In circuitry may be necessary to get a good input signal - but
>> > >> that
>> >  shouldn't be too hard
>> >  to add.  Also - do the internals of that chip - the
>> > 
>> >  https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/SGTL5000.pdf
>> > 
>> >  really allow the L/R Line In channels to be treated
>> independently?  If
>> > >>> so,
>> >  it should be good to go at least for experimentation.
>> > 
>> >  73's,
>> >  John
>> >  AJ6BC
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> >  On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:07 PM Chris Howard 
>> > >> wrote:
>> > > I received a good pointer about doing the 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts,

Paul, I haven't gone over in fine detail of how the multipsk software is
working - so I'd like to answer with that caveat if that's OK.

I thought it was more interesting that I got anything working as far as
60kHz with my existing OpenHPSDR rig AND my default antenna.
The system wasn't really designed for that - and it worked.

I'll dig into some of the details and report back - since the time
information is all that is needed for clock synchronization - I think the
easiest method available is more than likely what was done.

It agrees with the GPS feed from Themis - so, that's a good check.  Also,
Themis is driving the reference clock for the HPSDR rig.

73's,
John
AJ6BC






On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 12:20 PM paul swed  wrote:

> John I looked at what you sent. I assume its decoding the am time signal is
> that correct?
>
> On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Chris Howard  wrote:
>
> >
> > That's a fair assessment.  I'm really not very far into SDR programming,
> > would like to learn more.
> >
> > I was working with someone who gave me a way forward toward
> > using the same hardware to do the BPSK demodulation, but I want
> > to get his OK before I spread his stuff into this group or other places.
> > And I have not yet done anything with it yet myself.
> >
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
> > On 10/13/20 9:06 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > > The teensy is on order and downloaded the arduino plugin.
> > > In looking at the code I should mention it does not appear to be a I
> > > sampling. Just a single stream I AM sampler. Though at 60 Khz. Its
> > > essentially a diode with AGC and a slicer to determine a 1 or 0. No
> > matter
> > > a good start in the world of SDR. (At least I do not see an I
> approach)
> > > Regards
> > > Paul
> > >
> > > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:47 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Paul,
> > >>
> > >> Sure - even on my OpenHPSDR system using my vertical antenna - I am
> > almost
> > >> able to decode WWVB (reliably) using the clock
> > >> program from:
> > >>
> > >> http://f6cte.free.fr/index_anglais.htm
> > >>
> > >> with no changes whatsoever.  If I 'fix' the antenna - I'm sure it'll
> > work
> > >> more reliably.
> > >>
> > >> Teensy is Arduino compatible - pretty sure you can use the tools/libs
> > >> fairly easily from Arduino - I don't have a Teensy (yet) but I will
> > >> probably
> > >> get a kit like what's outlined in Chris's post and also here for the
> > people
> > >> that may not be in the US:
> > >>
> > >> https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77 (referenced by Chris in his
> > post).
> > >>
> > >> that describes the antenna circuit in more detail.
> > >>
> > >> 73's,
> > >> John
> > >> AJ6BC
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:20 PM paul swed 
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> John
> > >>> I would simply use any number of receivers and grab 60 KHz out of one
> > or
> > >>> could use the IF at 10 KHz or 1 KHz. But more fun to use 60 KHz. The
> > cost
> > >>> on the teensy components is very reasonable.
> > >>> Regards
> > >>> Paul
> > >>>
> > >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:44 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > >>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> >  Hello Time Nuts,
> > 
> >  Chris - maybe you can share that if that's something you can share
> > >> right
> >  now.
> > 
> >  Jim and Paul,
> > 
> >  Like Chris pointed out - on that audio board in the design he's
> worked
> > >>> on -
> >  the Line In has L and R channels - the input resistance is higher
> than
> > >>> for
> >  the mic input -
> >  but I suppose it's possible to try a BPSK implementation using that
> as
> > >> a
> >  starting point.  There's no separate gain stage for the Line In
> inputs
> > >>> like
> >  for the mic - but
> >  it could work - a small preamp that works with the input impedance
> of
> > >> the
> >  Line In circuitry may be necessary to get a good input signal - but
> > >> that
> >  shouldn't be too hard
> >  to add.  Also - do the internals of that chip - the
> > 
> >  https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/SGTL5000.pdf
> > 
> >  really allow the L/R Line In channels to be treated independently?
> If
> > >>> so,
> >  it should be good to go at least for experimentation.
> > 
> >  73's,
> >  John
> >  AJ6BC
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >  On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:07 PM Chris Howard 
> > >> wrote:
> > > I received a good pointer about doing the BPSK implementation
> > > but have just not gotten it done.
> > >
> > > Chris Howard
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 10/12/20 11:02 AM, jimlux wrote:
> > >> On 10/12/20 7:40 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > >>> John really appreciate the pointer. Though it doesn't help wwvb
> > >> BPSK
> > >>> its a
> > >>> really good intro to SDR and DSP super simple. A good way to get
> > >>> your
> > >>> feet
> 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

John I looked at what you sent. I assume its decoding the am time signal is
that correct?

On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 1:19 PM Chris Howard  wrote:

>
> That's a fair assessment.  I'm really not very far into SDR programming,
> would like to learn more.
>
> I was working with someone who gave me a way forward toward
> using the same hardware to do the BPSK demodulation, but I want
> to get his OK before I spread his stuff into this group or other places.
> And I have not yet done anything with it yet myself.
>
>
> Chris
>
>
> On 10/13/20 9:06 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > The teensy is on order and downloaded the arduino plugin.
> > In looking at the code I should mention it does not appear to be a I
> > sampling. Just a single stream I AM sampler. Though at 60 Khz. Its
> > essentially a diode with AGC and a slicer to determine a 1 or 0. No
> matter
> > a good start in the world of SDR. (At least I do not see an I approach)
> > Regards
> > Paul
> >
> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:47 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Paul,
> >>
> >> Sure - even on my OpenHPSDR system using my vertical antenna - I am
> almost
> >> able to decode WWVB (reliably) using the clock
> >> program from:
> >>
> >> http://f6cte.free.fr/index_anglais.htm
> >>
> >> with no changes whatsoever.  If I 'fix' the antenna - I'm sure it'll
> work
> >> more reliably.
> >>
> >> Teensy is Arduino compatible - pretty sure you can use the tools/libs
> >> fairly easily from Arduino - I don't have a Teensy (yet) but I will
> >> probably
> >> get a kit like what's outlined in Chris's post and also here for the
> people
> >> that may not be in the US:
> >>
> >> https://github.com/DD4WH/Teensy-DCF77 (referenced by Chris in his
> post).
> >>
> >> that describes the antenna circuit in more detail.
> >>
> >> 73's,
> >> John
> >> AJ6BC
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:20 PM paul swed  wrote:
> >>
> >>> John
> >>> I would simply use any number of receivers and grab 60 KHz out of one
> or
> >>> could use the IF at 10 KHz or 1 KHz. But more fun to use 60 KHz. The
> cost
> >>> on the teensy components is very reasonable.
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:44 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hello Time Nuts,
> 
>  Chris - maybe you can share that if that's something you can share
> >> right
>  now.
> 
>  Jim and Paul,
> 
>  Like Chris pointed out - on that audio board in the design he's worked
> >>> on -
>  the Line In has L and R channels - the input resistance is higher than
> >>> for
>  the mic input -
>  but I suppose it's possible to try a BPSK implementation using that as
> >> a
>  starting point.  There's no separate gain stage for the Line In inputs
> >>> like
>  for the mic - but
>  it could work - a small preamp that works with the input impedance of
> >> the
>  Line In circuitry may be necessary to get a good input signal - but
> >> that
>  shouldn't be too hard
>  to add.  Also - do the internals of that chip - the
> 
>  https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/SGTL5000.pdf
> 
>  really allow the L/R Line In channels to be treated independently?  If
> >>> so,
>  it should be good to go at least for experimentation.
> 
>  73's,
>  John
>  AJ6BC
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:07 PM Chris Howard 
> >> wrote:
> > I received a good pointer about doing the BPSK implementation
> > but have just not gotten it done.
> >
> > Chris Howard
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/12/20 11:02 AM, jimlux wrote:
> >> On 10/12/20 7:40 AM, paul swed wrote:
> >>> John really appreciate the pointer. Though it doesn't help wwvb
> >> BPSK
> >>> its a
> >>> really good intro to SDR and DSP super simple. A good way to get
> >>> your
> >>> feet
> >>> wet. Hmmm is there a parts order soon? :-)
> >>> Regards
> >>> Paul
> >>> WB8TSL
> >>
> >> And the teensy has plenty of space and speed to implement a PLL for
> >> doing BPSK demodulation.
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:33 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi
> 
>  The “ideal” antenna solenoid would be a bit longer ( say 2 X to
> >> 5X
> >>> ).
>  The turns should be spaced apart by a few percent of the length.
>  ( so turns over 30 or so … not so much …).
> 
>  How much better is “ideal” compared to “just get it done?”. At
> >>> least
>  from the stories that are told, it is significant. Since all
> >> these
>  antennas
>  are very small (so non-ideal) it’s a bit of a snail race.
> 
>  Bob
> 
> > On Oct 12, 2020, at 3:42 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>  j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > Doesn't the 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

John
I would simply use any number of receivers and grab 60 KHz out of one or
could use the IF at 10 KHz or 1 KHz. But more fun to use 60 KHz. The cost
on the teensy components is very reasonable.
Regards
Paul

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:44 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Hello Time Nuts,
>
> Chris - maybe you can share that if that's something you can share right
> now.
>
> Jim and Paul,
>
> Like Chris pointed out - on that audio board in the design he's worked on -
> the Line In has L and R channels - the input resistance is higher than for
> the mic input -
> but I suppose it's possible to try a BPSK implementation using that as a
> starting point.  There's no separate gain stage for the Line In inputs like
> for the mic - but
> it could work - a small preamp that works with the input impedance of the
> Line In circuitry may be necessary to get a good input signal - but that
> shouldn't be too hard
> to add.  Also - do the internals of that chip - the
>
> https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/SGTL5000.pdf
>
> really allow the L/R Line In channels to be treated independently?  If so,
> it should be good to go at least for experimentation.
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:07 PM Chris Howard  wrote:
>
> >
> > I received a good pointer about doing the BPSK implementation
> > but have just not gotten it done.
> >
> > Chris Howard
> >
> >
> >
> > On 10/12/20 11:02 AM, jimlux wrote:
> > > On 10/12/20 7:40 AM, paul swed wrote:
> > >> John really appreciate the pointer. Though it doesn't help wwvb BPSK
> > >> its a
> > >> really good intro to SDR and DSP super simple. A good way to get your
> > >> feet
> > >> wet. Hmmm is there a parts order soon? :-)
> > >> Regards
> > >> Paul
> > >> WB8TSL
> > >
> > >
> > > And the teensy has plenty of space and speed to implement a PLL for
> > > doing BPSK demodulation.
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:33 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Hi
> > >>>
> > >>> The “ideal” antenna solenoid would be a bit longer ( say 2 X to 5X ).
> > >>> The turns should be spaced apart by a few percent of the length.
> > >>> ( so turns over 30 or so … not so much …).
> > >>>
> > >>> How much better is “ideal” compared to “just get it done?”. At least
> > >>> from the stories that are told, it is significant. Since all these
> > >>> antennas
> > >>> are very small (so non-ideal) it’s a bit of a snail race.
> > >>>
> > >>> Bob
> > >>>
> >  On Oct 12, 2020, at 3:42 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > >>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > 
> >  Paul,
> > 
> >  Doesn't the post by Chris Howard above appear to be a good/great
> >  starting
> >  point?
> >  Seems like that approach could be extended.
> > 
> >  https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr
> > 
> >  73's,
> >  John
> >  AJ6BC
> > 
> > 
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello Time Nuts,

Chris - maybe you can share that if that's something you can share right
now.

Jim and Paul,

Like Chris pointed out - on that audio board in the design he's worked on -
the Line In has L and R channels - the input resistance is higher than for
the mic input -
but I suppose it's possible to try a BPSK implementation using that as a
starting point.  There's no separate gain stage for the Line In inputs like
for the mic - but
it could work - a small preamp that works with the input impedance of the
Line In circuitry may be necessary to get a good input signal - but that
shouldn't be too hard
to add.  Also - do the internals of that chip - the

https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/SGTL5000.pdf

really allow the L/R Line In channels to be treated independently?  If so,
it should be good to go at least for experimentation.

73's,
John
AJ6BC




On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 12:07 PM Chris Howard  wrote:

>
> I received a good pointer about doing the BPSK implementation
> but have just not gotten it done.
>
> Chris Howard
>
>
>
> On 10/12/20 11:02 AM, jimlux wrote:
> > On 10/12/20 7:40 AM, paul swed wrote:
> >> John really appreciate the pointer. Though it doesn't help wwvb BPSK
> >> its a
> >> really good intro to SDR and DSP super simple. A good way to get your
> >> feet
> >> wet. Hmmm is there a parts order soon? :-)
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >> WB8TSL
> >
> >
> > And the teensy has plenty of space and speed to implement a PLL for
> > doing BPSK demodulation.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:33 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> The “ideal” antenna solenoid would be a bit longer ( say 2 X to 5X ).
> >>> The turns should be spaced apart by a few percent of the length.
> >>> ( so turns over 30 or so … not so much …).
> >>>
> >>> How much better is “ideal” compared to “just get it done?”. At least
> >>> from the stories that are told, it is significant. Since all these
> >>> antennas
> >>> are very small (so non-ideal) it’s a bit of a snail race.
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
>  On Oct 12, 2020, at 3:42 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> 
>  Paul,
> 
>  Doesn't the post by Chris Howard above appear to be a good/great
>  starting
>  point?
>  Seems like that approach could be extended.
> 
>  https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr
> 
>  73's,
>  John
>  AJ6BC
> 
> 
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Chris Howard]

I received a good pointer about doing the BPSK implementation
but have just not gotten it done.

Chris Howard



On 10/12/20 11:02 AM, jimlux wrote:

On 10/12/20 7:40 AM, paul swed wrote:
John really appreciate the pointer. Though it doesn't help wwvb BPSK 
its a
really good intro to SDR and DSP super simple. A good way to get your 
feet

wet. Hmmm is there a parts order soon? :-)
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL



And the teensy has plenty of space and speed to implement a PLL for 
doing BPSK demodulation.





On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:33 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:


Hi

The “ideal” antenna solenoid would be a bit longer ( say 2 X to 5X ).
The turns should be spaced apart by a few percent of the length.
( so turns over 30 or so … not so much …).

How much better is “ideal” compared to “just get it done?”. At least
from the stories that are told, it is significant. Since all these 
antennas

are very small (so non-ideal) it’s a bit of a snail race.

Bob


On Oct 12, 2020, at 3:42 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <

j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:


Paul,

Doesn't the post by Chris Howard above appear to be a good/great 
starting

point?
Seems like that approach could be extended.

https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr

73's,
John
AJ6BC




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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[jimlux]

On 10/12/20 7:40 AM, paul swed wrote:

John really appreciate the pointer. Though it doesn't help wwvb BPSK its a
really good intro to SDR and DSP super simple. A good way to get your feet
wet. Hmmm is there a parts order soon? :-)
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL



And the teensy has plenty of space and speed to implement a PLL for 
doing BPSK demodulation.





On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:33 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:


Hi

The “ideal” antenna solenoid would be a bit longer ( say 2 X to 5X ).
The turns should be spaced apart by a few percent of the length.
( so turns over 30 or so … not so much …).

How much better is “ideal” compared to “just get it done?”.  At least
from the stories that are told, it is significant. Since all these antennas
are very small (so non-ideal) it’s a bit of a snail race.

Bob


On Oct 12, 2020, at 3:42 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <

j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:


Paul,

Doesn't the post by Chris Howard above appear to be a good/great starting
point?
Seems like that approach could be extended.

https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr

73's,
John
AJ6BC




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and follow the instructions there.

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

John really appreciate the pointer. Though it doesn't help wwvb BPSK its a
really good intro to SDR and DSP super simple. A good way to get your feet
wet. Hmmm is there a parts order soon? :-)
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 10:33 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> The “ideal” antenna solenoid would be a bit longer ( say 2 X to 5X ).
> The turns should be spaced apart by a few percent of the length.
> ( so turns over 30 or so … not so much …).
>
> How much better is “ideal” compared to “just get it done?”.  At least
> from the stories that are told, it is significant. Since all these antennas
> are very small (so non-ideal) it’s a bit of a snail race.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 12, 2020, at 3:42 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> > Paul,
> >
> > Doesn't the post by Chris Howard above appear to be a good/great starting
> > point?
> > Seems like that approach could be extended.
> >
> > https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr
> >
> > 73's,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 9:23 AM paul swed  wrote:
> >
> >> Good morning to the group. Both Rodger and I can answer the last
> question
> >> on the questionable bits very well.
> >> I have 7 antique devices spectracoms truetime fluke tracor Dymec etc.
> >> They handle it very well each has at least a 2 second integration time.
> The
> >> dpskr has always taken advantage of this fact. Literally we have run
> days
> >> without flips in the charts. Even in summer.
> >> Some surprises in doing this. Numbers of bits that could change don't
> seem
> >> to. Then some of the bits have a really odd pattern but they follow the
> >> pattern. Thats been coded into the dpskr. In fact anything over several
> >> years we have figured out are coded in.
> >> One thing we did not do was automatic change from summer to winter
> offsets.
> >> Its really a PIA so just not that excited when this happy switch flipper
> >> can do it in 1 second.
> >>
> >> The other bit of fun for the magical new DPS wwvb receiver is after you
> get
> >> the bits you must decode them and its nothing like the AM code. Its a
> M/N
> >> FEC code. Its all in the NIST papers but was fun coding and I imagine
> every
> >> bit as fun decoding. The dpskr software at least gives you hints to the
> >> process.
> >>
> >> Here is an offer. Anyone that gets the BPSK bits working through a
> SDR/DPS
> >> arduino/STM cheap chip. Please no $100 FPGA development kits.
> >> I will be happy to dig into the decoder. The solution needs a 1pps and
> the
> >> bit.
> >> Whats really funny about the wwvb bpsk is that there has never been
> sort of
> >> a open development platform. Anyone who has played with the ES100 will
> run
> >> into some issues that are annoying for a time nut to tinker with.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul
> >>
> >> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:39 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> The “simple” approach is to generate the full modulation pattern
> >>> for the signal based on a “known good” time source. There are a
> >>> couple of ambiguous  bits so it will only be close. Feed that into
> >>> your inverter and the result will be (near) clean WWVB. Since you
> >>> never demodulate the WWVB, there isn’t a lot to the RF side ….
> >>>
> >>> There will be some drops and pops. The question will be just how
> >>> well this or that antique device deals with them.
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
>  On Oct 10, 2020, at 10:01 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
>  The additional article John sent us is a pretty good read. Having
> >>> soldered
>  all the little wires together with heat shrink, I can see the
> advantage
> >>> of
>  the epoxy approach.
> 
>  A consideration for the discussion. So far its been about the various
> >>> tried
>  and true methods for a RF frontend. But the real challenge that is in
> >>> front
>  of us is the software that uses that frontend. How about a very easy
> to
>  build a phase flipper so that those that are software inclined do not
> >>> need
>  to deal with the frontend to get going. The dpskr has a phase flipper
> >> in
> >>> it.
>  But it can be even simpler than that.
> 
>  A 60 KHz logic signal ( divide 6 Mhz down or anything else thats easy)
>  Feeds an inverter to generate the 180 degree phase. A gate to select 0
> >> or
>  180 degrees. All of the gates/inverters can actually be a single quad
>  nand gate. A D flip flop with the clock from the 0 degree 60 KHz logic
>  level. Your data into the D input. The D flip flop synchronizes the
> >> data
> >>> to
>  the clock. On the output you can filter the signal or not and cut the
> >>> level
>  down or not.
>  Its a BPSK source.
>  Granted in a pure gate approach the actual bpsk flip will not be the 2
> >> X
> >>> 60
>  KHz for 1/2 cycle. But in real receivers the 120 KHz never comes
> >> through
>  the various stages and filters. So no real harm. This also doesn't
> >> supply
> 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

John had not seen this before. It is a AM decoder. But its an interesting
start if you are less than 1000 miles from wwvb.
Regards
Paul

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 6:52 AM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Paul,
>
> Doesn't the post by Chris Howard above appear to be a good/great starting
> point?
> Seems like that approach could be extended.
>
> https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 9:23 AM paul swed  wrote:
>
> > Good morning to the group. Both Rodger and I can answer the last question
> > on the questionable bits very well.
> > I have 7 antique devices spectracoms truetime fluke tracor Dymec etc.
> > They handle it very well each has at least a 2 second integration time.
> The
> > dpskr has always taken advantage of this fact. Literally we have run days
> > without flips in the charts. Even in summer.
> > Some surprises in doing this. Numbers of bits that could change don't
> seem
> > to. Then some of the bits have a really odd pattern but they follow the
> > pattern. Thats been coded into the dpskr. In fact anything over several
> > years we have figured out are coded in.
> > One thing we did not do was automatic change from summer to winter
> offsets.
> > Its really a PIA so just not that excited when this happy switch flipper
> > can do it in 1 second.
> >
> > The other bit of fun for the magical new DPS wwvb receiver is after you
> get
> > the bits you must decode them and its nothing like the AM code. Its a M/N
> > FEC code. Its all in the NIST papers but was fun coding and I imagine
> every
> > bit as fun decoding. The dpskr software at least gives you hints to the
> > process.
> >
> > Here is an offer. Anyone that gets the BPSK bits working through a
> SDR/DPS
> > arduino/STM cheap chip. Please no $100 FPGA development kits.
> > I will be happy to dig into the decoder. The solution needs a 1pps and
> the
> > bit.
> > Whats really funny about the wwvb bpsk is that there has never been sort
> of
> > a open development platform. Anyone who has played with the ES100 will
> run
> > into some issues that are annoying for a time nut to tinker with.
> > Regards
> > Paul
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:39 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > The “simple” approach is to generate the full modulation pattern
> > > for the signal based on a “known good” time source. There are a
> > > couple of ambiguous  bits so it will only be close. Feed that into
> > > your inverter and the result will be (near) clean WWVB. Since you
> > > never demodulate the WWVB, there isn’t a lot to the RF side ….
> > >
> > > There will be some drops and pops. The question will be just how
> > > well this or that antique device deals with them.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > > On Oct 10, 2020, at 10:01 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The additional article John sent us is a pretty good read. Having
> > > soldered
> > > > all the little wires together with heat shrink, I can see the
> advantage
> > > of
> > > > the epoxy approach.
> > > >
> > > > A consideration for the discussion. So far its been about the various
> > > tried
> > > > and true methods for a RF frontend. But the real challenge that is in
> > > front
> > > > of us is the software that uses that frontend. How about a very easy
> to
> > > > build a phase flipper so that those that are software inclined do not
> > > need
> > > > to deal with the frontend to get going. The dpskr has a phase flipper
> > in
> > > it.
> > > > But it can be even simpler than that.
> > > >
> > > > A 60 KHz logic signal ( divide 6 Mhz down or anything else thats
> easy)
> > > > Feeds an inverter to generate the 180 degree phase. A gate to select
> 0
> > or
> > > > 180 degrees. All of the gates/inverters can actually be a single quad
> > > > nand gate. A D flip flop with the clock from the 0 degree 60 KHz
> logic
> > > > level. Your data into the D input. The D flip flop synchronizes the
> > data
> > > to
> > > > the clock. On the output you can filter the signal or not and cut the
> > > level
> > > > down or not.
> > > > Its a BPSK source.
> > > > Granted in a pure gate approach the actual bpsk flip will not be the
> 2
> > X
> > > 60
> > > > KHz for 1/2 cycle. But in real receivers the 120 KHz never comes
> > through
> > > > the various stages and filters. So no real harm. This also doesn't
> > supply
> > > > the AM signals 14-17 db modulation. But its good enough to allow
> > software
> > > > to be developed and its simple.
> > > > Good luck
> > > > Paul
> > > > WB8TSL
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 2:05 PM John Magliacane via time-nuts <
> > > > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> For WWVB reception, I use a single turn of 40-conductor ribbon
> cable,
> > > >> configured as a 40-turn loop, brought to resonance with a parallel
> > > >> capacitance, that differentially drives an instrumentation
> amplifier.
> > No
> > > >> electrostatic shielding is needed to 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The “ideal” antenna solenoid would be a bit longer ( say 2 X to 5X ). 
The turns should be spaced apart by a few percent of the length.
( so turns over 30 or so … not so much …). 

How much better is “ideal” compared to “just get it done?”.  At least
from the stories that are told, it is significant. Since all these antennas
are very small (so non-ideal) it’s a bit of a snail race. 

Bob

> On Oct 12, 2020, at 3:42 AM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>  wrote:
> 
> Paul,
> 
> Doesn't the post by Chris Howard above appear to be a good/great starting
> point?
> Seems like that approach could be extended.
> 
> https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr
> 
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 9:23 AM paul swed  wrote:
> 
>> Good morning to the group. Both Rodger and I can answer the last question
>> on the questionable bits very well.
>> I have 7 antique devices spectracoms truetime fluke tracor Dymec etc.
>> They handle it very well each has at least a 2 second integration time. The
>> dpskr has always taken advantage of this fact. Literally we have run days
>> without flips in the charts. Even in summer.
>> Some surprises in doing this. Numbers of bits that could change don't seem
>> to. Then some of the bits have a really odd pattern but they follow the
>> pattern. Thats been coded into the dpskr. In fact anything over several
>> years we have figured out are coded in.
>> One thing we did not do was automatic change from summer to winter offsets.
>> Its really a PIA so just not that excited when this happy switch flipper
>> can do it in 1 second.
>> 
>> The other bit of fun for the magical new DPS wwvb receiver is after you get
>> the bits you must decode them and its nothing like the AM code. Its a M/N
>> FEC code. Its all in the NIST papers but was fun coding and I imagine every
>> bit as fun decoding. The dpskr software at least gives you hints to the
>> process.
>> 
>> Here is an offer. Anyone that gets the BPSK bits working through a SDR/DPS
>> arduino/STM cheap chip. Please no $100 FPGA development kits.
>> I will be happy to dig into the decoder. The solution needs a 1pps and the
>> bit.
>> Whats really funny about the wwvb bpsk is that there has never been sort of
>> a open development platform. Anyone who has played with the ES100 will run
>> into some issues that are annoying for a time nut to tinker with.
>> Regards
>> Paul
>> 
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:39 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> The “simple” approach is to generate the full modulation pattern
>>> for the signal based on a “known good” time source. There are a
>>> couple of ambiguous  bits so it will only be close. Feed that into
>>> your inverter and the result will be (near) clean WWVB. Since you
>>> never demodulate the WWVB, there isn’t a lot to the RF side ….
>>> 
>>> There will be some drops and pops. The question will be just how
>>> well this or that antique device deals with them.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
 On Oct 10, 2020, at 10:01 PM, paul swed  wrote:
 
 The additional article John sent us is a pretty good read. Having
>>> soldered
 all the little wires together with heat shrink, I can see the advantage
>>> of
 the epoxy approach.
 
 A consideration for the discussion. So far its been about the various
>>> tried
 and true methods for a RF frontend. But the real challenge that is in
>>> front
 of us is the software that uses that frontend. How about a very easy to
 build a phase flipper so that those that are software inclined do not
>>> need
 to deal with the frontend to get going. The dpskr has a phase flipper
>> in
>>> it.
 But it can be even simpler than that.
 
 A 60 KHz logic signal ( divide 6 Mhz down or anything else thats easy)
 Feeds an inverter to generate the 180 degree phase. A gate to select 0
>> or
 180 degrees. All of the gates/inverters can actually be a single quad
 nand gate. A D flip flop with the clock from the 0 degree 60 KHz logic
 level. Your data into the D input. The D flip flop synchronizes the
>> data
>>> to
 the clock. On the output you can filter the signal or not and cut the
>>> level
 down or not.
 Its a BPSK source.
 Granted in a pure gate approach the actual bpsk flip will not be the 2
>> X
>>> 60
 KHz for 1/2 cycle. But in real receivers the 120 KHz never comes
>> through
 the various stages and filters. So no real harm. This also doesn't
>> supply
 the AM signals 14-17 db modulation. But its good enough to allow
>> software
 to be developed and its simple.
 Good luck
 Paul
 WB8TSL
 
 On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 2:05 PM John Magliacane via time-nuts <
 time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
 
> For WWVB reception, I use a single turn of 40-conductor ribbon cable,
> configured as a 40-turn loop, brought to resonance with a parallel
> capacitance, that differentially drives an instrumentation amplifier.
>> No
> electrostatic 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Paul,

Doesn't the post by Chris Howard above appear to be a good/great starting
point?
Seems like that approach could be extended.

https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 9:23 AM paul swed  wrote:

> Good morning to the group. Both Rodger and I can answer the last question
> on the questionable bits very well.
> I have 7 antique devices spectracoms truetime fluke tracor Dymec etc.
> They handle it very well each has at least a 2 second integration time. The
> dpskr has always taken advantage of this fact. Literally we have run days
> without flips in the charts. Even in summer.
> Some surprises in doing this. Numbers of bits that could change don't seem
> to. Then some of the bits have a really odd pattern but they follow the
> pattern. Thats been coded into the dpskr. In fact anything over several
> years we have figured out are coded in.
> One thing we did not do was automatic change from summer to winter offsets.
> Its really a PIA so just not that excited when this happy switch flipper
> can do it in 1 second.
>
> The other bit of fun for the magical new DPS wwvb receiver is after you get
> the bits you must decode them and its nothing like the AM code. Its a M/N
> FEC code. Its all in the NIST papers but was fun coding and I imagine every
> bit as fun decoding. The dpskr software at least gives you hints to the
> process.
>
> Here is an offer. Anyone that gets the BPSK bits working through a SDR/DPS
> arduino/STM cheap chip. Please no $100 FPGA development kits.
> I will be happy to dig into the decoder. The solution needs a 1pps and the
> bit.
> Whats really funny about the wwvb bpsk is that there has never been sort of
> a open development platform. Anyone who has played with the ES100 will run
> into some issues that are annoying for a time nut to tinker with.
> Regards
> Paul
>
> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:39 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > The “simple” approach is to generate the full modulation pattern
> > for the signal based on a “known good” time source. There are a
> > couple of ambiguous  bits so it will only be close. Feed that into
> > your inverter and the result will be (near) clean WWVB. Since you
> > never demodulate the WWVB, there isn’t a lot to the RF side ….
> >
> > There will be some drops and pops. The question will be just how
> > well this or that antique device deals with them.
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Oct 10, 2020, at 10:01 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> > >
> > > The additional article John sent us is a pretty good read. Having
> > soldered
> > > all the little wires together with heat shrink, I can see the advantage
> > of
> > > the epoxy approach.
> > >
> > > A consideration for the discussion. So far its been about the various
> > tried
> > > and true methods for a RF frontend. But the real challenge that is in
> > front
> > > of us is the software that uses that frontend. How about a very easy to
> > > build a phase flipper so that those that are software inclined do not
> > need
> > > to deal with the frontend to get going. The dpskr has a phase flipper
> in
> > it.
> > > But it can be even simpler than that.
> > >
> > > A 60 KHz logic signal ( divide 6 Mhz down or anything else thats easy)
> > > Feeds an inverter to generate the 180 degree phase. A gate to select 0
> or
> > > 180 degrees. All of the gates/inverters can actually be a single quad
> > > nand gate. A D flip flop with the clock from the 0 degree 60 KHz logic
> > > level. Your data into the D input. The D flip flop synchronizes the
> data
> > to
> > > the clock. On the output you can filter the signal or not and cut the
> > level
> > > down or not.
> > > Its a BPSK source.
> > > Granted in a pure gate approach the actual bpsk flip will not be the 2
> X
> > 60
> > > KHz for 1/2 cycle. But in real receivers the 120 KHz never comes
> through
> > > the various stages and filters. So no real harm. This also doesn't
> supply
> > > the AM signals 14-17 db modulation. But its good enough to allow
> software
> > > to be developed and its simple.
> > > Good luck
> > > Paul
> > > WB8TSL
> > >
> > > On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 2:05 PM John Magliacane via time-nuts <
> > > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> For WWVB reception, I use a single turn of 40-conductor ribbon cable,
> > >> configured as a 40-turn loop, brought to resonance with a parallel
> > >> capacitance, that differentially drives an instrumentation amplifier.
> No
> > >> electrostatic shielding is needed to eliminate e-field pickup with
> this
> > >> approach.
> > >>
> > >> The antenna hangs in my attic with thumbtacks and does a commendable
> > job,
> > >> day or night, 1622 miles east of WWVB.  See attached JPEG image.
> > >>
> > >> The March 2017 issue of "Circuit Cellar" magazine described an
> > "improved"
> > >> version of my antenna/preamp combination (which I haven't looked
> into).
> > >> See attached PDF document.
> > >>
> > >> During my early experimentation, I realized that the preamp 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

Good morning to the group. Both Rodger and I can answer the last question
on the questionable bits very well.
I have 7 antique devices spectracoms truetime fluke tracor Dymec etc.
They handle it very well each has at least a 2 second integration time. The
dpskr has always taken advantage of this fact. Literally we have run days
without flips in the charts. Even in summer.
Some surprises in doing this. Numbers of bits that could change don't seem
to. Then some of the bits have a really odd pattern but they follow the
pattern. Thats been coded into the dpskr. In fact anything over several
years we have figured out are coded in.
One thing we did not do was automatic change from summer to winter offsets.
Its really a PIA so just not that excited when this happy switch flipper
can do it in 1 second.

The other bit of fun for the magical new DPS wwvb receiver is after you get
the bits you must decode them and its nothing like the AM code. Its a M/N
FEC code. Its all in the NIST papers but was fun coding and I imagine every
bit as fun decoding. The dpskr software at least gives you hints to the
process.

Here is an offer. Anyone that gets the BPSK bits working through a SDR/DPS
arduino/STM cheap chip. Please no $100 FPGA development kits.
I will be happy to dig into the decoder. The solution needs a 1pps and the
bit.
Whats really funny about the wwvb bpsk is that there has never been sort of
a open development platform. Anyone who has played with the ES100 will run
into some issues that are annoying for a time nut to tinker with.
Regards
Paul

On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:39 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> The “simple” approach is to generate the full modulation pattern
> for the signal based on a “known good” time source. There are a
> couple of ambiguous  bits so it will only be close. Feed that into
> your inverter and the result will be (near) clean WWVB. Since you
> never demodulate the WWVB, there isn’t a lot to the RF side ….
>
> There will be some drops and pops. The question will be just how
> well this or that antique device deals with them.
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 10, 2020, at 10:01 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> >
> > The additional article John sent us is a pretty good read. Having
> soldered
> > all the little wires together with heat shrink, I can see the advantage
> of
> > the epoxy approach.
> >
> > A consideration for the discussion. So far its been about the various
> tried
> > and true methods for a RF frontend. But the real challenge that is in
> front
> > of us is the software that uses that frontend. How about a very easy to
> > build a phase flipper so that those that are software inclined do not
> need
> > to deal with the frontend to get going. The dpskr has a phase flipper in
> it.
> > But it can be even simpler than that.
> >
> > A 60 KHz logic signal ( divide 6 Mhz down or anything else thats easy)
> > Feeds an inverter to generate the 180 degree phase. A gate to select 0 or
> > 180 degrees. All of the gates/inverters can actually be a single quad
> > nand gate. A D flip flop with the clock from the 0 degree 60 KHz logic
> > level. Your data into the D input. The D flip flop synchronizes the data
> to
> > the clock. On the output you can filter the signal or not and cut the
> level
> > down or not.
> > Its a BPSK source.
> > Granted in a pure gate approach the actual bpsk flip will not be the 2 X
> 60
> > KHz for 1/2 cycle. But in real receivers the 120 KHz never comes through
> > the various stages and filters. So no real harm. This also doesn't supply
> > the AM signals 14-17 db modulation. But its good enough to allow software
> > to be developed and its simple.
> > Good luck
> > Paul
> > WB8TSL
> >
> > On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 2:05 PM John Magliacane via time-nuts <
> > time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> For WWVB reception, I use a single turn of 40-conductor ribbon cable,
> >> configured as a 40-turn loop, brought to resonance with a parallel
> >> capacitance, that differentially drives an instrumentation amplifier. No
> >> electrostatic shielding is needed to eliminate e-field pickup with this
> >> approach.
> >>
> >> The antenna hangs in my attic with thumbtacks and does a commendable
> job,
> >> day or night, 1622 miles east of WWVB.  See attached JPEG image.
> >>
> >> The March 2017 issue of "Circuit Cellar" magazine described an
> "improved"
> >> version of my antenna/preamp combination (which I haven't looked into).
> >> See attached PDF document.
> >>
> >> During my early experimentation, I realized that the preamp would need
> to
> >> have a high dynamic range in order to perform well in the high-noise
> >> environment that is LF.   And if the preamp is going to feed a receiver
> >> through any reasonable length of coax, it will need to be able to drive
> a
> >> high capacitance load as well.
> >>
> >>
> >> 73.000 de John, KD2BD
> >> ___
> >> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >> To unsubscribe, go to
> >> 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

The “simple” approach is to generate the full modulation pattern
for the signal based on a “known good” time source. There are a 
couple of ambiguous  bits so it will only be close. Feed that into
your inverter and the result will be (near) clean WWVB. Since you
never demodulate the WWVB, there isn’t a lot to the RF side ….

There will be some drops and pops. The question will be just how
well this or that antique device deals with them. 

Bob

> On Oct 10, 2020, at 10:01 PM, paul swed  wrote:
> 
> The additional article John sent us is a pretty good read. Having soldered
> all the little wires together with heat shrink, I can see the advantage of
> the epoxy approach.
> 
> A consideration for the discussion. So far its been about the various tried
> and true methods for a RF frontend. But the real challenge that is in front
> of us is the software that uses that frontend. How about a very easy to
> build a phase flipper so that those that are software inclined do not need
> to deal with the frontend to get going. The dpskr has a phase flipper in it.
> But it can be even simpler than that.
> 
> A 60 KHz logic signal ( divide 6 Mhz down or anything else thats easy)
> Feeds an inverter to generate the 180 degree phase. A gate to select 0 or
> 180 degrees. All of the gates/inverters can actually be a single quad
> nand gate. A D flip flop with the clock from the 0 degree 60 KHz logic
> level. Your data into the D input. The D flip flop synchronizes the data to
> the clock. On the output you can filter the signal or not and cut the level
> down or not.
> Its a BPSK source.
> Granted in a pure gate approach the actual bpsk flip will not be the 2 X 60
> KHz for 1/2 cycle. But in real receivers the 120 KHz never comes through
> the various stages and filters. So no real harm. This also doesn't supply
> the AM signals 14-17 db modulation. But its good enough to allow software
> to be developed and its simple.
> Good luck
> Paul
> WB8TSL
> 
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 2:05 PM John Magliacane via time-nuts <
> time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:
> 
>> For WWVB reception, I use a single turn of 40-conductor ribbon cable,
>> configured as a 40-turn loop, brought to resonance with a parallel
>> capacitance, that differentially drives an instrumentation amplifier. No
>> electrostatic shielding is needed to eliminate e-field pickup with this
>> approach.
>> 
>> The antenna hangs in my attic with thumbtacks and does a commendable job,
>> day or night, 1622 miles east of WWVB.  See attached JPEG image.
>> 
>> The March 2017 issue of "Circuit Cellar" magazine described an "improved"
>> version of my antenna/preamp combination (which I haven't looked into).
>> See attached PDF document.
>> 
>> During my early experimentation, I realized that the preamp would need to
>> have a high dynamic range in order to perform well in the high-noise
>> environment that is LF.   And if the preamp is going to feed a receiver
>> through any reasonable length of coax, it will need to be able to drive a
>> high capacitance load as well.
>> 
>> 
>> 73.000 de John, KD2BD
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

The additional article John sent us is a pretty good read. Having soldered
all the little wires together with heat shrink, I can see the advantage of
the epoxy approach.

A consideration for the discussion. So far its been about the various tried
and true methods for a RF frontend. But the real challenge that is in front
of us is the software that uses that frontend. How about a very easy to
build a phase flipper so that those that are software inclined do not need
to deal with the frontend to get going. The dpskr has a phase flipper in it.
But it can be even simpler than that.

A 60 KHz logic signal ( divide 6 Mhz down or anything else thats easy)
Feeds an inverter to generate the 180 degree phase. A gate to select 0 or
180 degrees. All of the gates/inverters can actually be a single quad
nand gate. A D flip flop with the clock from the 0 degree 60 KHz logic
level. Your data into the D input. The D flip flop synchronizes the data to
the clock. On the output you can filter the signal or not and cut the level
down or not.
Its a BPSK source.
Granted in a pure gate approach the actual bpsk flip will not be the 2 X 60
KHz for 1/2 cycle. But in real receivers the 120 KHz never comes through
the various stages and filters. So no real harm. This also doesn't supply
the AM signals 14-17 db modulation. But its good enough to allow software
to be developed and its simple.
Good luck
Paul
WB8TSL

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 2:05 PM John Magliacane via time-nuts <
time-nuts@lists.febo.com> wrote:

> For WWVB reception, I use a single turn of 40-conductor ribbon cable,
> configured as a 40-turn loop, brought to resonance with a parallel
> capacitance, that differentially drives an instrumentation amplifier. No
> electrostatic shielding is needed to eliminate e-field pickup with this
> approach.
>
> The antenna hangs in my attic with thumbtacks and does a commendable job,
> day or night, 1622 miles east of WWVB.  See attached JPEG image.
>
> The March 2017 issue of "Circuit Cellar" magazine described an "improved"
> version of my antenna/preamp combination (which I haven't looked into).
> See attached PDF document.
>
> During my early experimentation, I realized that the preamp would need to
> have a high dynamic range in order to perform well in the high-noise
> environment that is LF.   And if the preamp is going to feed a receiver
> through any reasonable length of coax, it will need to be able to drive a
> high capacitance load as well.
>
>
> 73.000 de John, KD2BD
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Bob kb8tq]

 really annoy effect is that the
>>> doubling
>>>>>> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly
>> you
>>>> get a
>>>>>> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
>>>>>> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are
>>> several
>>>>>> others.
>>>>>> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on
>> the
>>>> east
>>>>>> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
>>>> boards
>>>>>> I have chuckle.
>>>>>> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above
>> board I
>>>>>> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no
>>>> mods to
>>>>>> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
>>>> group.
>>>>>> As they say have fun.
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Paul.
>>>>>> WB8TSL
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bob,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside
>>> antenna.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Ray
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>  Original Message 
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
>>>>>>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>>>>>>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
>>>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the
>>>> incoming
>>>>>>> WWVB signal…….
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
>>>>>>> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift
>> is
>>>>>>>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of
>> the
>>>>>>>> list have built these units.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a
>>>>>> schmitt
>>>>>>>> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal
>>>> back
>>>>>>>> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the
>>> WWVB
>>>>>>>> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level
>> and
>>>>>>>> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Ray,
>>>>>>>> AB7HE
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> ___
>>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ___
>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ___
>>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> ___
>>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>>>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> ___
>>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
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>>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ___
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>>>> 
>>> ___
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Ole Stender Nielsen via time-nuts]

A general comment on the use of Schmitt-trigger and counters on a 
conditioned analog signal:
You will likely run into issues with missing counts or additional counts 
when the receiver experiences fadings or glitches (lightning, etc.)

If this happens, the 60 kHz signal will jump in phase.

Ole


Den 08-10-2020 kl. 20:07 skrev rcb...@atcelectronics.com:

I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
list have built these units.

Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt
trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave.  If I then divide that signal back
down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.

Ray,
AB7HE

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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Chris Howard]

For my little WWVB project  I used the table saw to cut off the
upper 3 inches of a 5 gal bucket from Lowes (having removed the handle 
first).

Then I wrapped that with about 30 turns of enameled wire from
an old TV flyback transformer.  I then measured the inductance
and added the required capacitance to tune it to 60 kHz.

I am doing direct sampling with a teensyduino and sound card.
I have not tackled the phase decoding, which would be superior.


https://github.com/chris-elfpen/Teensy4WWVBsdr


On 10/9/20 7:04 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. wrote:

Paul,

Thanks for that detailed explanation.  I've done something similar for MARS
but of course higher frequency and that was transmit also.

I've seen the site of something similar but I think that was a 3' diameter
design; and I've looked at some of the Symmetricom schematics I've
been able to find but have yet to find a schematic of one of
the Symmetricom receive antennas.  I was hoping to find the one they had
for outdoor pole mount.  It's mentioned in a lot of their documents and
even some pics but no schematic details or BOM for that I've been able to
find.

Thanks to Tim also for the response and have a good weekend!

73's,
John
AJ6BC

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 15:24 paul swed  wrote:


John I don't think so as not sure how many have built a large antenna.
Certainly any of the old wwvb receivers have details and thats pretty much
what most people copy.
Essentially a 3 foot copper loop with numbers of turns of wire connected
together. Like 25 pair telco cable connected end to end. A large capacitor
is then put across the loop to resonate it at 60 KHz. Then the preamp. Some
use a FET transistor followed by a line driver transistor. Power is sent
over the coax so a blocking cap and inductor.
Really big is 10' by 10' using shielded 36 wire ribbon cable. ( did not use
all 36 conductors it was to much L but 800 ft worth. The shield acts like
the copper pipe and it must be broken so that it does not look like a
shorted loop. Add the cap and preamp.
In this case I built a 2 transistor NPN 2n3904 preamp.
On the large antenna I use a 2 X 6 post 4ft in the ground with cement. A
mast above that to support the antenna and to allow it to be turned a bit
to null MSF.
Thats it no real magic. Its been operational for 7 years with an occasional
transistor replacement. Also coax, darn woodpeckers!
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 5:14 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:


Bob,

Thanks for the answer; but does anyone actually have a documented
specification posted for one of these 'massive' WWVB 60kHz antennas
someplace?

Thanks.

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 08:35 Bob kb8tq  wrote:


Hi

At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is “massive”
compared to
the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….

The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,

it’s

going to be
a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
voltage and better
isolation …..

Bob


On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <

j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

Hello All,

Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive

antennas?

Thanks,
John
AJ6BC


On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:


Hello to the group.
Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic

level

of

maybe 4V.
If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the

receiver.

Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and

modifies

the

detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the

doubling

slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly

you

get a

180 degree flip. Thats messy.
The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are

several

others.
But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on

the

east

coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of

boards

I have chuckle.
For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above

board I

designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no

mods to

any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts

group.

As they say have fun.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:


Bob,

I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside

antenna.

Ray

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
From: Bob kb8tq 
Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement


Hi

A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the

incoming

WWVB signal…….

Bob


On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <

rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:

I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift

is

elim

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[rcbuck]

Paul, by going to high power mode I meant at the 200, 500, or 800 msec
point of each second.

Ray

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
From: Bob kb8tq 
Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 4:12 pm
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement


Hi

I don’t believe that the WWVB transmitters change power day
to night. Both the north and south antenna’s are fed with the same
power, regardless of the time of day…..

Bob

> On Oct 9, 2020, at 5:59 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote:
> 
> Paul,
> I was seeing a -10 dBm on the SA when they enter high power mode at
> night. At low power they are only a couple of dB above the nearby noise
> makers. But that is at the output of the last stage of my receiver. The
> WWVB signal was about 10-15 dB above the noise makers in my work shop. I
> don't know what the actual WWVB signal level is and have no way to
> measure it. I estimate the ferrite antenna to be approx 20k ohm which
> doesn't match the 50 ohm input of the SA. Maybe feed the rod antenna
> into a single stage op amp with a gain of 1 to feed the SA would work
> give me a rough idea?? I previously said I had 1 mV of daytime signal
> according to the WWVB maps. But that was wrong. In my mind I was
> thinking 1000 uV when the maps show the 100 uV coverage area. So receive
> level during the day should be around 0.1 mV. I have PCB's on order that
> hopefully will improve the receiver performance.
> 
> Bob,
> I'm still trying to figure out if a software or hardware solution is
> better. I've looked at the Costas loop and a PLL angle. But I run into
> the problem of the LO being on the same frequency as WWVB. Plus as Paul
> said the math is intimidating to me. Locking WWVB to a HF oscillator and
> dividing down to 10 kHz or so for the control voltage and I/Q
> demodulation may be an answer but involves more hardware.
> 
> For a software solution I don't know exactly how to approach the task. I
> don't have any DSP software experience so that option is out. I haven't
> made a decision on the CPU yet. I will just use whatever it takes for
> the job, probably a STM32 part of some sort. I have a couple of STM32
> development boards I can use when I get to that point.
> 
> Ray
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 12:23 pm
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Since you need a MCU to decode the data, you might as well get
> things in there sooner rather than later. There are a number of MCU’s
> out there that have fast enough ADC’s to do the job. They do have
> limited
> dynamic range. You can go to one of the 24 bit converters and have 
> a ton of dynamic range. It’s all up to you.
> 
> Once it’s into the MCU, it’s just code :). Depending on how much cpu
> 
> horsepower you have (and how much code you want to write) you can
> go more or less crazy …. PHK has some interesting tidbits on his web 
> site. http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf
> <http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf>
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote:
>> 
>> Paul, Bob,
>> 
>> I am not using any commercial receiver. I am building everything from
>> scratch. The RF front end starts with a ferrite rod antenna feeding a
>> differential first op amp followed by 5 stages of op amp filtering and
>> amplification. When the last stage is fed to my spectrum analyzer
>> (through attenuators) the WWVB signal is clearly visible. I'm now trying
>> to figure out how to detect the phase shift so I can get the time data
>> for my CPU to process and send to a display.
>> 
>> I already have a GPS based clock that I built so I thought the WWVB
>> phase clock would be an interesting project.
>> 
>> Ray
>> 
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>> Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 7:35 am
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> 
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is
>> “massive” compared to
>> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
>> 
>> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,
>> it’s going to be
>> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
>> voltage and better
>> isolation …..
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Al

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Paul,

Thanks for that detailed explanation.  I've done something similar for MARS
but of course higher frequency and that was transmit also.

I've seen the site of something similar but I think that was a 3' diameter
design; and I've looked at some of the Symmetricom schematics I've
been able to find but have yet to find a schematic of one of
the Symmetricom receive antennas.  I was hoping to find the one they had
for outdoor pole mount.  It's mentioned in a lot of their documents and
even some pics but no schematic details or BOM for that I've been able to
find.

Thanks to Tim also for the response and have a good weekend!

73's,
John
AJ6BC

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 15:24 paul swed  wrote:

> John I don't think so as not sure how many have built a large antenna.
> Certainly any of the old wwvb receivers have details and thats pretty much
> what most people copy.
> Essentially a 3 foot copper loop with numbers of turns of wire connected
> together. Like 25 pair telco cable connected end to end. A large capacitor
> is then put across the loop to resonate it at 60 KHz. Then the preamp. Some
> use a FET transistor followed by a line driver transistor. Power is sent
> over the coax so a blocking cap and inductor.
> Really big is 10' by 10' using shielded 36 wire ribbon cable. ( did not use
> all 36 conductors it was to much L but 800 ft worth. The shield acts like
> the copper pipe and it must be broken so that it does not look like a
> shorted loop. Add the cap and preamp.
> In this case I built a 2 transistor NPN 2n3904 preamp.
> On the large antenna I use a 2 X 6 post 4ft in the ground with cement. A
> mast above that to support the antenna and to allow it to be turned a bit
> to null MSF.
> Thats it no real magic. Its been operational for 7 years with an occasional
> transistor replacement. Also coax, darn woodpeckers!
> Regards
> Paul
> WB8TSL
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 5:14 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > Thanks for the answer; but does anyone actually have a documented
> > specification posted for one of these 'massive' WWVB 60kHz antennas
> > someplace?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > 73's,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 08:35 Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is “massive”
> > > compared to
> > > the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
> > >
> > > The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,
> > it’s
> > > going to be
> > > a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
> > > voltage and better
> > > isolation …..
> > >
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > > On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello All,
> > > >
> > > > Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive
> > antennas?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > John
> > > > AJ6BC
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hello to the group.
> > > >> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic
> level
> > > of
> > > >> maybe 4V.
> > > >> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
> > > >> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the
> receiver.
> > > >> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and
> > modifies
> > > the
> > > >> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
> > > >> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the
> > doubling
> > > >> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly
> you
> > > get a
> > > >> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
> > > >> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are
> > several
> > > >> others.
> > > >> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on
> the
> > > east
> > > >> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
> > > boards
> > > >> I have chuckle.
> > > >> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above
> board I
> > > >> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did ve

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

Ray lots of people have worked the hardware approach. The hill to conquer
is the software version. To me that means far few things to solder. That
means more people might build it.
With respect to the antenna a simple Fet follower is very good. We all like
to use opamps but its overkill. Whats easy for one person may be hard for
another. The real answer is get-er done. The STM32s are really pretty nice
and even the arduino gui supports them now. I was looking at whats called
the bluepill essentially a nice arm running at 75 MHZ lots of ram etc. and
something like $3-5. Thats just crazy. Its all here but I was having
troubles with getting the interface driver going.
As I watch wwvb tonight on the KD2BD receiver (Sort of. Its been modified
heavily.) I see about 400 uv. But really interesting is that signals
jumping up and down by about 10 db. Thinking good old MSF may be visiting.
Its very hard to tell. Also lightning from Canada.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 6:56 PM  wrote:

> Paul,
> I was seeing a -10 dBm on the SA when they enter high power mode at
> night. At low power they are only a couple of dB above the nearby noise
> makers. But that is at the output of the last stage of my receiver. The
> WWVB signal was about 10-15 dB above the noise makers in my work shop. I
> don't know what the actual WWVB signal level is and have no way to
> measure it. I estimate the ferrite antenna to be approx 20k ohm which
> doesn't match the 50 ohm input of the SA. Maybe feed the rod antenna
> into a single stage op amp with a gain of 1 to feed the SA would work
> give me a rough idea?? I previously said I had 1 mV of daytime signal
> according to the WWVB maps. But that was wrong. In my mind I was
> thinking 1000 uV when the maps show the 100 uV coverage area. So receive
> level during the day should be around 0.1 mV. I have PCB's on order that
> hopefully will improve the receiver performance.
>
> Bob,
> I'm still trying to figure out if a software or hardware solution is
> better. I've looked at the Costas loop and a PLL angle. But I run into
> the problem of the LO being on the same frequency as WWVB. Plus as Paul
> said the math is intimidating to me. Locking WWVB to a HF oscillator and
> dividing down to 10 kHz or so for the control voltage and I/Q
> demodulation may be an answer but involves more hardware.
>
> For a software solution I don't know exactly how to approach the task. I
> don't have any DSP software experience so that option is out. I haven't
> made a decision on the CPU yet. I will just use whatever it takes for
> the job, probably a STM32 part of some sort. I have a couple of STM32
> development boards I can use when I get to that point.
>
> Ray
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 12:23 pm
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
>
> Hi
>
> Since you need a MCU to decode the data, you might as well get
> things in there sooner rather than later. There are a number of MCU’s
> out there that have fast enough ADC’s to do the job. They do have
> limited
> dynamic range. You can go to one of the 24 bit converters and have
> a ton of dynamic range. It’s all up to you.
>
> Once it’s into the MCU, it’s just code :). Depending on how much cpu
>
> horsepower you have (and how much code you want to write) you can
> go more or less crazy …. PHK has some interesting tidbits on his web
> site. http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf
> <http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf>
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Oct 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote:
> >
> > Paul, Bob,
> >
> > I am not using any commercial receiver. I am building everything from
> > scratch. The RF front end starts with a ferrite rod antenna feeding a
> > differential first op amp followed by 5 stages of op amp filtering and
> > amplification. When the last stage is fed to my spectrum analyzer
> > (through attenuators) the WWVB signal is clearly visible. I'm now trying
> > to figure out how to detect the phase shift so I can get the time data
> > for my CPU to process and send to a display.
> >
> > I already have a GPS based clock that I built so I thought the WWVB
> > phase clock would be an interesting project.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> >  Original Message 
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> > From: Bob kb8tq 
> > Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 7:35 am
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > 
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is
> > “massive” compared t

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Dana Whitlow]

Direct IQ demodulation to zero-IF is indeed subject to problems from LO
leakage into the
mixers.  Said leakage will displace the center of the IQ plot away from the
origin, which
then requires correction later on, which is a pain to do well.

A pretty good way to deal with all this is to downconvert the 60 kHz to a
lower IF (say,
a few hundred Hz or maybe even a few kHz) in a conventional mixer, then
clean up
the garbage with an analog filter.  Next digitize the IF (now a quite slow
A/D will suffice),
then do quadrature demodulation to zero-IF in SW.  Once there, use the
ATAN2 function
to obtain phase in the time domain.  The catch is this: that 1st LO must be
right on, hence
phase locked, or else let it drift around a bit as it pleases and phase
lock the 2nd (SW)
LO to obtain the locked zero-IF.  This kind of stuff is pretty easy to do
if you are doing it
in post-processing from a recorded signal.  But I can see it getting rather
more involved
when one wants to do it in real time, something I've never tackled.  Good
luck!

Dana



On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 5:56 PM  wrote:

> Paul,
> I was seeing a -10 dBm on the SA when they enter high power mode at
> night. At low power they are only a couple of dB above the nearby noise
> makers. But that is at the output of the last stage of my receiver. The
> WWVB signal was about 10-15 dB above the noise makers in my work shop. I
> don't know what the actual WWVB signal level is and have no way to
> measure it. I estimate the ferrite antenna to be approx 20k ohm which
> doesn't match the 50 ohm input of the SA. Maybe feed the rod antenna
> into a single stage op amp with a gain of 1 to feed the SA would work
> give me a rough idea?? I previously said I had 1 mV of daytime signal
> according to the WWVB maps. But that was wrong. In my mind I was
> thinking 1000 uV when the maps show the 100 uV coverage area. So receive
> level during the day should be around 0.1 mV. I have PCB's on order that
> hopefully will improve the receiver performance.
>
> Bob,
> I'm still trying to figure out if a software or hardware solution is
> better. I've looked at the Costas loop and a PLL angle. But I run into
> the problem of the LO being on the same frequency as WWVB. Plus as Paul
> said the math is intimidating to me. Locking WWVB to a HF oscillator and
> dividing down to 10 kHz or so for the control voltage and I/Q
> demodulation may be an answer but involves more hardware.
>
> For a software solution I don't know exactly how to approach the task. I
> don't have any DSP software experience so that option is out. I haven't
> made a decision on the CPU yet. I will just use whatever it takes for
> the job, probably a STM32 part of some sort. I have a couple of STM32
> development boards I can use when I get to that point.
>
> Ray
>
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 12:23 pm
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
>
> Hi
>
> Since you need a MCU to decode the data, you might as well get
> things in there sooner rather than later. There are a number of MCU’s
> out there that have fast enough ADC’s to do the job. They do have
> limited
> dynamic range. You can go to one of the 24 bit converters and have
> a ton of dynamic range. It’s all up to you.
>
> Once it’s into the MCU, it’s just code :). Depending on how much cpu
>
> horsepower you have (and how much code you want to write) you can
> go more or less crazy …. PHK has some interesting tidbits on his web
> site. http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf
> <http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf>
>
> Bob
>
>
> > On Oct 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote:
> >
> > Paul, Bob,
> >
> > I am not using any commercial receiver. I am building everything from
> > scratch. The RF front end starts with a ferrite rod antenna feeding a
> > differential first op amp followed by 5 stages of op amp filtering and
> > amplification. When the last stage is fed to my spectrum analyzer
> > (through attenuators) the WWVB signal is clearly visible. I'm now trying
> > to figure out how to detect the phase shift so I can get the time data
> > for my CPU to process and send to a display.
> >
> > I already have a GPS based clock that I built so I thought the WWVB
> > phase clock would be an interesting project.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> >  Original Message 
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> > From: Bob kb8tq 
> > Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 7:35 am
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > 
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > At l

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

I don’t believe that the WWVB transmitters change power day
to night. Both the north and south antenna’s are fed with the same
power, regardless of the time of day…..

Bob

> On Oct 9, 2020, at 5:59 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote:
> 
> Paul,
> I was seeing a -10 dBm on the SA when they enter high power mode at
> night. At low power they are only a couple of dB above the nearby noise
> makers. But that is at the output of the last stage of my receiver. The
> WWVB signal was about 10-15 dB above the noise makers in my work shop. I
> don't know what the actual WWVB signal level is and have no way to
> measure it. I estimate the ferrite antenna to be approx 20k ohm which
> doesn't match the 50 ohm input of the SA. Maybe feed the rod antenna
> into a single stage op amp with a gain of 1 to feed the SA would work
> give me a rough idea?? I previously said I had 1 mV of daytime signal
> according to the WWVB maps. But that was wrong. In my mind I was
> thinking 1000 uV when the maps show the 100 uV coverage area. So receive
> level during the day should be around 0.1 mV. I have PCB's on order that
> hopefully will improve the receiver performance.
> 
> Bob,
> I'm still trying to figure out if a software or hardware solution is
> better. I've looked at the Costas loop and a PLL angle. But I run into
> the problem of the LO being on the same frequency as WWVB. Plus as Paul
> said the math is intimidating to me. Locking WWVB to a HF oscillator and
> dividing down to 10 kHz or so for the control voltage and I/Q
> demodulation may be an answer but involves more hardware.
> 
> For a software solution I don't know exactly how to approach the task. I
> don't have any DSP software experience so that option is out. I haven't
> made a decision on the CPU yet. I will just use whatever it takes for
> the job, probably a STM32 part of some sort. I have a couple of STM32
> development boards I can use when I get to that point.
> 
> Ray
> 
> 
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 12:23 pm
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> Since you need a MCU to decode the data, you might as well get
> things in there sooner rather than later. There are a number of MCU’s
> out there that have fast enough ADC’s to do the job. They do have
> limited
> dynamic range. You can go to one of the 24 bit converters and have 
> a ton of dynamic range. It’s all up to you.
> 
> Once it’s into the MCU, it’s just code :). Depending on how much cpu
> 
> horsepower you have (and how much code you want to write) you can
> go more or less crazy …. PHK has some interesting tidbits on his web 
> site. http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf
> <http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf>
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> On Oct 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote:
>> 
>> Paul, Bob,
>> 
>> I am not using any commercial receiver. I am building everything from
>> scratch. The RF front end starts with a ferrite rod antenna feeding a
>> differential first op amp followed by 5 stages of op amp filtering and
>> amplification. When the last stage is fed to my spectrum analyzer
>> (through attenuators) the WWVB signal is clearly visible. I'm now trying
>> to figure out how to detect the phase shift so I can get the time data
>> for my CPU to process and send to a display.
>> 
>> I already have a GPS based clock that I built so I thought the WWVB
>> phase clock would be an interesting project.
>> 
>> Ray
>> 
>>  Original Message 
>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>> Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 7:35 am
>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>> 
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is
>> “massive” compared to
>> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
>> 
>> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,
>> it’s going to be
>> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
>> voltage and better
>> isolation …..
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello All,
>>> 
>>> Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> John
>>> AJ6BC
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello to 

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

This is Time Nuts. All we have is the information provided by various members.
They describe their antenna setups. Again, anything in the > 100’ range for a 
WWVB antenna is something I would call “massive” compared to a <1’ long rod
antenna. 

Bob

> On Oct 9, 2020, at 5:02 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>  wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Thanks for the answer; but does anyone actually have a documented
> specification posted for one of these 'massive' WWVB 60kHz antennas
> someplace?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
> 
> 
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 08:35 Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is “massive”
>> compared to
>> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
>> 
>> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop, it’s
>> going to be
>> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
>> voltage and better
>> isolation …..
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello All,
>>> 
>>> Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> John
>>> AJ6BC
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello to the group.
>>>> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level
>> of
>>>> maybe 4V.
>>>> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
>>>> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
>>>> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies
>> the
>>>> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
>>>> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
>>>> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you
>> get a
>>>> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
>>>> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
>>>> others.
>>>> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the
>> east
>>>> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
>> boards
>>>> I have chuckle.
>>>> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
>>>> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no
>> mods to
>>>> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
>> group.
>>>> As they say have fun.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Paul.
>>>> WB8TSL
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Bob,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ray
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Original Message 
>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
>>>>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>>>>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> 
>>>>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the
>> incoming
>>>>> WWVB signal…….
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
>>>>> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
>>>>>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
>>>>>> list have built these units.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a
>>>> schmitt
>>>>>> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal
>> back
>>>>>> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
>>>>>> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
>>>>>> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Ray,
>>>>>> AB7HE
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> _

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

Have built whips and small loops and ferrite cores of various sizes. For me
the best is the 10' by 10'. As mentioned earlier in the thread as measured
on a dymec receiver. Other solutions during the day 10-30uv. Large loop
60-200. Night is just crazy up in the millivolt range. But not all of the
time. It just depends on propagation.
In New England the antenna does need the ability to null MSF out of
England. A bit of a trade off.
Last comment. Listening today and really seeing the noise floor upto 70-80
KHz climbing. Still tracking wwvb just fine but I fear far sooner then
later that may not be the case.
Regards
Paul

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 5:42 PM Tim Shoppa  wrote:

> The NIST WWVB transmitter antenna is very massive and very well
> documented: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA299080.pdf
>
> For receive on VLF there is no reason to go so big. A short whip produces
> plenty of atmospheric noise so there’s no purpose at going bigger. A loop
> (including ferrite core loop) has a useful null to remove local noise
> sources. A tuned loop with reasonable Q helps reject a lot of noise before
> it reaches the first active stage.
>
> Tim N3QE
>
> > On Oct 9, 2020, at 5:14 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> > Bob,
> >
> > Thanks for the answer; but does anyone actually have a documented
> > specification posted for one of these 'massive' WWVB 60kHz antennas
> > someplace?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > 73's,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 08:35 Bob kb8tq  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi
> >>
> >> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is “massive”
> >> compared to
> >> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
> >>
> >> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,
> it’s
> >> going to be
> >> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
> >> voltage and better
> >> isolation …..
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> >> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello All,
> >>>
> >>> Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive
> antennas?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> John
> >>> AJ6BC
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hello to the group.
> >>>> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level
> >> of
> >>>> maybe 4V.
> >>>> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
> >>>> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
> >>>> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and
> modifies
> >> the
> >>>> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
> >>>> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the
> doubling
> >>>> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you
> >> get a
> >>>> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
> >>>> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are
> several
> >>>> others.
> >>>> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the
> >> east
> >>>> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
> >> boards
> >>>> I have chuckle.
> >>>> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
> >>>> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no
> >> mods to
> >>>> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
> >> group.
> >>>> As they say have fun.
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Paul.
> >>>> WB8TSL
> >>>>
> >>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Bob,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside
> antenna.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ray
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  Original Message 
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> >>>>> From: Bob kb8tq 
> >>>>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:4

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[rcbuck]

Paul,
I was seeing a -10 dBm on the SA when they enter high power mode at
night. At low power they are only a couple of dB above the nearby noise
makers. But that is at the output of the last stage of my receiver. The
WWVB signal was about 10-15 dB above the noise makers in my work shop. I
don't know what the actual WWVB signal level is and have no way to
measure it. I estimate the ferrite antenna to be approx 20k ohm which
doesn't match the 50 ohm input of the SA. Maybe feed the rod antenna
into a single stage op amp with a gain of 1 to feed the SA would work
give me a rough idea?? I previously said I had 1 mV of daytime signal
according to the WWVB maps. But that was wrong. In my mind I was
thinking 1000 uV when the maps show the 100 uV coverage area. So receive
level during the day should be around 0.1 mV. I have PCB's on order that
hopefully will improve the receiver performance.

Bob,
I'm still trying to figure out if a software or hardware solution is
better. I've looked at the Costas loop and a PLL angle. But I run into
the problem of the LO being on the same frequency as WWVB. Plus as Paul
said the math is intimidating to me. Locking WWVB to a HF oscillator and
dividing down to 10 kHz or so for the control voltage and I/Q
demodulation may be an answer but involves more hardware.

For a software solution I don't know exactly how to approach the task. I
don't have any DSP software experience so that option is out. I haven't
made a decision on the CPU yet. I will just use whatever it takes for
the job, probably a STM32 part of some sort. I have a couple of STM32
development boards I can use when I get to that point.

Ray


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
From: Bob kb8tq 
Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 12:23 pm
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement


Hi

Since you need a MCU to decode the data, you might as well get
things in there sooner rather than later. There are a number of MCU’s
out there that have fast enough ADC’s to do the job. They do have
limited
dynamic range. You can go to one of the 24 bit converters and have 
a ton of dynamic range. It’s all up to you.

Once it’s into the MCU, it’s just code :). Depending on how much cpu

horsepower you have (and how much code you want to write) you can
go more or less crazy …. PHK has some interesting tidbits on his web 
site. http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf
<http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf>

Bob


> On Oct 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote:
> 
> Paul, Bob,
> 
> I am not using any commercial receiver. I am building everything from
> scratch. The RF front end starts with a ferrite rod antenna feeding a
> differential first op amp followed by 5 stages of op amp filtering and
> amplification. When the last stage is fed to my spectrum analyzer
> (through attenuators) the WWVB signal is clearly visible. I'm now trying
> to figure out how to detect the phase shift so I can get the time data
> for my CPU to process and send to a display.
> 
> I already have a GPS based clock that I built so I thought the WWVB
> phase clock would be an interesting project.
> 
> Ray
> 
> ---- Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 7:35 am
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is
> “massive” compared to
> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
> 
> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,
> it’s going to be
> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
> voltage and better
> isolation …..
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello All,
>> 
>> Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> John
>> AJ6BC
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello to the group.
>>> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level of
>>> maybe 4V.
>>> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
>>> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
>>> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies the
>>> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
>>> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
>>> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you get a
>>> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
>>> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are sev

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

John I don't think so as not sure how many have built a large antenna.
Certainly any of the old wwvb receivers have details and thats pretty much
what most people copy.
Essentially a 3 foot copper loop with numbers of turns of wire connected
together. Like 25 pair telco cable connected end to end. A large capacitor
is then put across the loop to resonate it at 60 KHz. Then the preamp. Some
use a FET transistor followed by a line driver transistor. Power is sent
over the coax so a blocking cap and inductor.
Really big is 10' by 10' using shielded 36 wire ribbon cable. ( did not use
all 36 conductors it was to much L but 800 ft worth. The shield acts like
the copper pipe and it must be broken so that it does not look like a
shorted loop. Add the cap and preamp.
In this case I built a 2 transistor NPN 2n3904 preamp.
On the large antenna I use a 2 X 6 post 4ft in the ground with cement. A
mast above that to support the antenna and to allow it to be turned a bit
to null MSF.
Thats it no real magic. Its been operational for 7 years with an occasional
transistor replacement. Also coax, darn woodpeckers!
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL


On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 5:14 PM John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:

> Bob,
>
> Thanks for the answer; but does anyone actually have a documented
> specification posted for one of these 'massive' WWVB 60kHz antennas
> someplace?
>
> Thanks.
>
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 08:35 Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is “massive”
> > compared to
> > the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
> >
> > The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,
> it’s
> > going to be
> > a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
> > voltage and better
> > isolation …..
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> > j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello All,
> > >
> > > Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive
> antennas?
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > John
> > > AJ6BC
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hello to the group.
> > >> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level
> > of
> > >> maybe 4V.
> > >> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
> > >> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
> > >> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and
> modifies
> > the
> > >> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
> > >> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the
> doubling
> > >> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you
> > get a
> > >> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
> > >> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are
> several
> > >> others.
> > >> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the
> > east
> > >> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
> > boards
> > >> I have chuckle.
> > >> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
> > >> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no
> > mods to
> > >> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
> > group.
> > >> As they say have fun.
> > >> Regards
> > >> Paul.
> > >> WB8TSL
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Bob,
> > >>>
> > >>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside
> antenna.
> > >>>
> > >>> Ray
> > >>>
> > >>>  Original Message 
> > >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> > >>> From: Bob kb8tq 
> > >>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
> > >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > >>> 
> > >>>
> > >>> Hi
> > >>>
> > >>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the
> > incoming
> > >>> WWVB signal…….
> > >>>
> > >>> Bob
> > >>

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Tim Shoppa]

The NIST WWVB transmitter antenna is very massive and very well documented: 
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA299080.pdf

For receive on VLF there is no reason to go so big. A short whip produces 
plenty of atmospheric noise so there’s no purpose at going bigger. A loop 
(including ferrite core loop) has a useful null to remove local noise sources. 
A tuned loop with reasonable Q helps reject a lot of noise before it reaches 
the first active stage.

Tim N3QE

> On Oct 9, 2020, at 5:14 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>  wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> 
> Thanks for the answer; but does anyone actually have a documented
> specification posted for one of these 'massive' WWVB 60kHz antennas
> someplace?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 73's,
> John
> AJ6BC
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 08:35 Bob kb8tq  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is “massive”
>> compared to
>> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
>> 
>> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop, it’s
>> going to be
>> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
>> voltage and better
>> isolation …..
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
>> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello All,
>>> 
>>> Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> John
>>> AJ6BC
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hello to the group.
>>>> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level
>> of
>>>> maybe 4V.
>>>> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
>>>> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
>>>> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies
>> the
>>>> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
>>>> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
>>>> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you
>> get a
>>>> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
>>>> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
>>>> others.
>>>> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the
>> east
>>>> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
>> boards
>>>> I have chuckle.
>>>> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
>>>> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no
>> mods to
>>>> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
>> group.
>>>> As they say have fun.
>>>> Regards
>>>> Paul.
>>>> WB8TSL
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Bob,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Ray
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Original Message 
>>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
>>>>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>>>>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
>>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi
>>>>> 
>>>>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the
>> incoming
>>>>> WWVB signal…….
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
>>>>> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
>>>>>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
>>>>>> list have built these units.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a
>>>> schmitt
>>>>>> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal
>> back
>>>>>> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
>>>>>> signal? I'm guessing it will be sin

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Bob,

Thanks for the answer; but does anyone actually have a documented
specification posted for one of these 'massive' WWVB 60kHz antennas
someplace?

Thanks.

73's,
John
AJ6BC


On Fri, Oct 9, 2020, 08:35 Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is “massive”
> compared to
> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
>
> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop, it’s
> going to be
> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
> voltage and better
> isolation …..
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
> >
> >> Hello to the group.
> >> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level
> of
> >> maybe 4V.
> >> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
> >> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
> >> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies
> the
> >> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
> >> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
> >> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you
> get a
> >> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
> >> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
> >> others.
> >> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the
> east
> >> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
> boards
> >> I have chuckle.
> >> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
> >> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no
> mods to
> >> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
> group.
> >> As they say have fun.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul.
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bob,
> >>>
> >>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
> >>>
> >>> Ray
> >>>
> >>>  Original Message 
> >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> >>> From: Bob kb8tq 
> >>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
> >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the
> incoming
> >>> WWVB signal…….
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
> >>> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
> >>>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
> >>>> list have built these units.
> >>>>
> >>>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a
> >> schmitt
> >>>> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal
> back
> >>>> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
> >>>> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
> >>>> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ray,
> >>>> AB7HE
> >>>>
> >>>> ___
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@list

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Since you need a MCU to decode the data, you might as well get
things in there sooner rather than later. There are a number of MCU’s
out there that have fast enough ADC’s to do the job. They do have limited
dynamic range. You can go to one of the 24 bit converters and have 
a ton of dynamic range. It’s all up to you.

Once it’s into the MCU, it’s just code :). Depending on how much cpu 
horsepower you have (and how much code you want to write) you can
go more or less crazy …. PHK has some interesting tidbits on his web 
site. http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf 
<http://phk.freebsd.dk/AducLoran/AducLoran-0.0.pdf>

Bob


> On Oct 9, 2020, at 1:38 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote:
> 
> Paul, Bob,
> 
> I am not using any commercial receiver. I am building everything from
> scratch. The RF front end starts with a ferrite rod antenna feeding a
> differential first op amp followed by 5 stages of op amp filtering and
> amplification. When the last stage is fed to my spectrum analyzer
> (through attenuators) the WWVB signal is clearly visible. I'm now trying
> to figure out how to detect the phase shift so I can get the time data
> for my CPU to process and send to a display.
> 
> I already have a GPS based clock that I built so I thought the WWVB
> phase clock would be an interesting project.
> 
> Ray
> 
> ---- Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 7:35 am
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is
> “massive” compared to
> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
> 
> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,
> it’s going to be
> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
> voltage and better
> isolation …..
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello All,
>> 
>> Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> John
>> AJ6BC
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello to the group.
>>> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level of
>>> maybe 4V.
>>> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
>>> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
>>> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies the
>>> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
>>> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
>>> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you get a
>>> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
>>> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
>>> others.
>>> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the east
>>> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of boards
>>> I have chuckle.
>>> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
>>> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no mods to
>>> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts group.
>>> As they say have fun.
>>> Regards
>>> Paul.
>>> WB8TSL
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Bob,
>>>> 
>>>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
>>>> 
>>>> Ray
>>>> 
>>>>  Original Message 
>>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
>>>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>>>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
>>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hi
>>>> 
>>>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
>>>> WWVB signal…….
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> 
>>>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
>>>> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
>>>>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
>>>>> list have built these units.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

OK then that would be a classic TRF receiver. Very typical be it
transistors and coils or opamps.
Whats the level on the SA?
Now you have entered the nasty territory that can give you many hours of
fun. The nast BPSK signal. Look at google for BPSK and costas loop
techniques. That will give you insights as to what to do. Essentially lock
an oscillator create 2 signals 90 degrees out and mix or sample with those
two signals. The math gets really interesting at that point as how to
detect the phases. For me thats all clear as mud.

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 1:58 PM  wrote:

> Paul, Bob,
>
> I am not using any commercial receiver. I am building everything from
> scratch. The RF front end starts with a ferrite rod antenna feeding a
> differential first op amp followed by 5 stages of op amp filtering and
> amplification. When the last stage is fed to my spectrum analyzer
> (through attenuators) the WWVB signal is clearly visible. I'm now trying
> to figure out how to detect the phase shift so I can get the time data
> for my CPU to process and send to a display.
>
> I already have a GPS based clock that I built so I thought the WWVB
> phase clock would be an interesting project.
>
> Ray
>
> ---- Original Message ----
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 7:35 am
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
>
> Hi
>
> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is
> “massive” compared to
> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
>
> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,
> it’s going to be
> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
> voltage and better
> isolation …..
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
> >
> >> Hello to the group.
> >> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level
> of
> >> maybe 4V.
> >> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
> >> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
> >> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies
> the
> >> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
> >> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
> >> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you
> get a
> >> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
> >> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
> >> others.
> >> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the
> east
> >> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
> boards
> >> I have chuckle.
> >> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
> >> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no
> mods to
> >> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
> group.
> >> As they say have fun.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul.
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bob,
> >>>
> >>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
> >>>
> >>> Ray
> >>>
> >>>  Original Message 
> >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> >>> From: Bob kb8tq 
> >>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
> >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the
> incoming
> >>> WWVB signal…….
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
> >>> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
> >>>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
> >>>> list have built these units.
> >>>>
> >>>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a
> >> schmit

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

Hi Bob well at 140' and 60 KHz its not a long way away from the receiver.
But good enough to allow development and testing. :-) I have not had
feedback from the antenna. Though sometimes I do wonder when wwvb is
several millivolts at night. The modulation is still there but that is a
lot of signal.
Regards
Paul

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 11:35 AM Bob kb8tq  wrote:

> Hi
>
> At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is “massive”
> compared to
> the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….
>
> The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop, it’s
> going to be
> a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
> voltage and better
> isolation …..
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. <
> j...@westmorelandengineering.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hello All,
> >
> > Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > John
> > AJ6BC
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
> >
> >> Hello to the group.
> >> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level
> of
> >> maybe 4V.
> >> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
> >> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
> >> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies
> the
> >> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
> >> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
> >> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you
> get a
> >> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
> >> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
> >> others.
> >> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the
> east
> >> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
> boards
> >> I have chuckle.
> >> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
> >> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no
> mods to
> >> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
> group.
> >> As they say have fun.
> >> Regards
> >> Paul.
> >> WB8TSL
> >>
> >> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Bob,
> >>>
> >>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
> >>>
> >>> Ray
> >>>
> >>>  Original Message 
> >>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> >>> From: Bob kb8tq 
> >>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
> >>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>> Hi
> >>>
> >>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the
> incoming
> >>> WWVB signal…….
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
> >>> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
> >>>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
> >>>> list have built these units.
> >>>>
> >>>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a
> >> schmitt
> >>>> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal
> back
> >>>> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
> >>>> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
> >>>> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
> >>>>
> >>>> Ray,
> >>>> AB7HE
> >>>>
> >>>> ___
> >>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> >>>> and follow the instructions there.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ___
> >>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> >>> To unsubscribe, go to
> >>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[rcbuck]

Paul, Bob,

I am not using any commercial receiver. I am building everything from
scratch. The RF front end starts with a ferrite rod antenna feeding a
differential first op amp followed by 5 stages of op amp filtering and
amplification. When the last stage is fed to my spectrum analyzer
(through attenuators) the WWVB signal is clearly visible. I'm now trying
to figure out how to detect the phase shift so I can get the time data
for my CPU to process and send to a display.

I already have a GPS based clock that I built so I thought the WWVB
phase clock would be an interesting project.

Ray

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
From: Bob kb8tq 
Date: Fri, October 09, 2020 7:35 am
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement


Hi

At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is
“massive” compared to
the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….

The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop,
it’s going to be
a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal
voltage and better
isolation …..

Bob

> On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> AJ6BC
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
> 
>> Hello to the group.
>> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level of
>> maybe 4V.
>> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
>> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
>> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies the
>> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
>> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
>> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you get a
>> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
>> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
>> others.
>> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the east
>> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of boards
>> I have chuckle.
>> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
>> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no mods to
>> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts group.
>> As they say have fun.
>> Regards
>> Paul.
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
>> 
>>> Bob,
>>> 
>>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
>>> 
>>> Ray
>>> 
>>>  Original Message 
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
>>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
>>> WWVB signal…….
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
>>> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
>>>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
>>>> list have built these units.
>>>> 
>>>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a
>> schmitt
>>>> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back
>>>> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
>>>> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
>>>> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
>>>> 
>>>> Ray,
>>>> AB7HE
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lis

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

At least to me, anything dimensioned in the 100’s of feet is “massive” compared 
to
the rod antennas normally seen in WWVB use ….

The other point being that if the antenna is some sort of large loop, it’s 
going to be
a good long ways away from the receiver. You get both a larger signal voltage 
and better
isolation …..

Bob

> On Oct 8, 2020, at 11:30 PM, John C. Westmoreland, P.E. 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?
> 
> Thanks,
> John
> AJ6BC
> 
> 
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:
> 
>> Hello to the group.
>> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level of
>> maybe 4V.
>> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
>> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
>> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies the
>> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
>> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
>> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you get a
>> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
>> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
>> others.
>> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the east
>> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of boards
>> I have chuckle.
>> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
>> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no mods to
>> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts group.
>> As they say have fun.
>> Regards
>> Paul.
>> WB8TSL
>> 
>> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
>> 
>>> Bob,
>>> 
>>> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
>>> 
>>> Ray
>>> 
>>>  Original Message 
>>> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
>>> From: Bob kb8tq 
>>> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
>>> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
>>> WWVB signal…….
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
>>> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
>>>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
>>>> list have built these units.
>>>> 
>>>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a
>> schmitt
>>>> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back
>>>> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
>>>> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
>>>> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
>>>> 
>>>> Ray,
>>>> AB7HE
>>>> 
>>>> ___
>>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>>> ___
>>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>>> To unsubscribe, go to
>>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>>> and follow the instructions there.
>>> 
>> ___
>> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
>> To unsubscribe, go to
>> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
>> and follow the instructions there.
>> 
> ___
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> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

Seriously nice 1mv yikes! Big antenna. I used the small loop antenna
some2-3 ft diameter. In Ma. that always was something like 10-30uv during
the day. Now with a 10' per side square loop its a solid 60-200uv per day.
Night always goes way up even to the 1mv and higher level.
I am also challenged often by MSF out of England. It can easily
override wwvb.
The antenna has about 800Ft of wire. Its actually made of shielded ribbon
cable with preamp and line driver. Really no magic. Transistors are 2n3904s
Cheap cause lightning likes them for lunch. The antenna is 140' from the
house so no real leakage issues.
You arr right your leakage is not 5V. Really really hard to say what it
would be. But much of the noise would actually travel down the coax to the
antenna. What I do know is that in experimenting on occasion there was
enough leakage to upset things.
The simple 2-3 devices never worked worth a darn out here and I tried all
of them. Simple is a good way to design, but not in New England. For you I
would follow the max carter approach. Yes you have to hack the receiver but
its simple.
I hate hacking these beautiful receivers so thats why the dpskr exists. I
wanted the receivers to work like they used to without unique hacks for
each one. The latest dpskr has 11 outputs. Hard to believe I have used most
already.
Regards
Paul
WB8TSL

On Fri, Oct 9, 2020 at 12:20 AM  wrote:

> Paul and Bob,
>
> Thanks for the comments. I figured I wouldn't be able to get a 60 kHz
> signal anywhere near a WWVB receiver. I just wondered how bad the signal
> leakage from the divider IC would actually be. It is at a 5V logic level
> but I don't know if that means 5V of signal radiation.
>
> I was trying to come up with a simple way (2 or 3 IC solution) to detect
> the phase changes to decode the time data. I'm not interested in using
> the signal for frequency measuring purposes. Doubling to 120 kHz doesn't
> work for detecting the phase change because the change disappears.
>
> I've looked at the block diagram of the ES100 module for hints. They are
> doing something that doesn't require a lot of  processing power as they
> are running the processor at 16 MHz. I guess the processor could have a
> PLL in it to increase the CPU clock speed. Somehow they are using that
> 16 MHz as part of the demodulation scheme. They show the ADC and
> oscillator feeding into a demodulator block. But 60 kHz isn't an integer
> divider into 16,000,000.
>
> Paul, so far I only have 5 or 6 boards but I'm sure I will have more as
> I continue testing. I'm in Phoenix so the WWVB signal is fairly strong
> here. The WWVB coverage maps show the signal as being 1mV during the
> day. I know my wrist watch will synchronize during the day when I
> replace the batteries.
>
> Ray
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: paul swed 
> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 3:43 pm
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
>
> Hello to the group.
> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level
> of
> maybe 4V.
> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies
> the
> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you
> get a
> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
> others.
> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the
> east
> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
> boards
> I have chuckle.
> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no mods
> to
> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
> group.
> As they say have fun.
> Regards
> Paul.
> WB8TSL
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> >  Original Message 
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> > From: Bob kb8tq 
> > Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > 
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
> > WWVB signal…….
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
> > rcb...@atc

Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[rcbuck]

Paul and Bob,

Thanks for the comments. I figured I wouldn't be able to get a 60 kHz
signal anywhere near a WWVB receiver. I just wondered how bad the signal
leakage from the divider IC would actually be. It is at a 5V logic level
but I don't know if that means 5V of signal radiation.  
 
I was trying to come up with a simple way (2 or 3 IC solution) to detect
the phase changes to decode the time data. I'm not interested in using
the signal for frequency measuring purposes. Doubling to 120 kHz doesn't
work for detecting the phase change because the change disappears.

I've looked at the block diagram of the ES100 module for hints. They are
doing something that doesn't require a lot of  processing power as they
are running the processor at 16 MHz. I guess the processor could have a
PLL in it to increase the CPU clock speed. Somehow they are using that
16 MHz as part of the demodulation scheme. They show the ADC and
oscillator feeding into a demodulator block. But 60 kHz isn't an integer
divider into 16,000,000.

Paul, so far I only have 5 or 6 boards but I'm sure I will have more as
I continue testing. I'm in Phoenix so the WWVB signal is fairly strong
here. The WWVB coverage maps show the signal as being 1mV during the
day. I know my wrist watch will synchronize during the day when I
replace the batteries.

Ray 

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
From: paul swed 
Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 3:43 pm
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement


Hello to the group.
Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level
of
maybe 4V.
If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies
the
detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you
get a
180 degree flip. Thats messy.
The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
others.
But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the
east
coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of
boards
I have chuckle.
For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no mods
to
any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts
group.
As they say have fun.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:

> Bob,
>
> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
>
> Ray
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
>
> Hi
>
> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
> WWVB signal…….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
> > eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
> > list have built these units.
> >
> > Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt
> > trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back
> > down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
> > signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
> > somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
> >
> > Ray,
> > AB7HE
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[John C. Westmoreland, P.E.]

Hello All,

Are there any design details someplace regarding these massive antennas?

Thanks,
John
AJ6BC


On Thu, Oct 8, 2020, 19:27 paul swed  wrote:

> Hello to the group.
> Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level of
> maybe 4V.
> If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
> oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
> Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies the
> detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
> internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
> slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you get a
> 180 degree flip. Thats messy.
> The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
> others.
> But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the east
> coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of boards
> I have chuckle.
> For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
> designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no mods to
> any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts group.
> As they say have fun.
> Regards
> Paul.
> WB8TSL
>
> On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:
>
> > Bob,
> >
> > I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> >  Original Message 
> > Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> > From: Bob kb8tq 
> > Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
> > To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> > 
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
> > WWVB signal…….
> >
> > Bob
> >
> > > On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
> > rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
> > > eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
> > > list have built these units.
> > >
> > > Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a
> schmitt
> > > trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back
> > > down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
> > > signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
> > > somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
> > >
> > > Ray,
> > > AB7HE
> > >
> > > ___
> > > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> > http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
> >
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[paul swed]

Hello to the group.
Ray as Bob mentions you are taking a 10s of uv signal to a logic level of
maybe 4V.
If the loop is any place close to the divided down signal, it will
oscillate. It would take incredible shielding to protect the receiver.
Thats why you often see a solution that doubles to 120 KHz and modifies the
detectors to work at that frequency. That means hacking the radio
internally. Not fun. The other really annoy effect is that the doubling
slips phace due to noise and propagation. So if charting suddenly you get a
180 degree flip. Thats messy.
The doubling solution can work. Search for carter and there are several
others.
But having tested and used all of the alternates and lots more on the east
coast decided they were too much trouble. You should see the box of boards
I have chuckle.
For me I am very happy with the d-psk-r. Though in being above board I
designed version 1 and Rodger and I did version 2. Its solid and no mods to
any receiver. Everything has always been released to the time-nuts group.
As they say have fun.
Regards
Paul.
WB8TSL

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 5:39 PM  wrote:

> Bob,
>
> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
>
> Ray
>
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
>
> Hi
>
> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
> WWVB signal…….
>
> Bob
>
> > On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  <
> rcb...@atcelectronics.com> wrote:
> >
> > I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
> > eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
> > list have built these units.
> >
> > Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt
> > trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back
> > down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
> > signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
> > somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
> >
> > Ray,
> > AB7HE
> >
> > ___
> > time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> > To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> > and follow the instructions there.
>
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.
>
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

Some of the folks doing this are running pretty massive antennas. 

If you believe that the max signal from WWVB into your antenna 
is around 1 mV and accept the 5V p-p number, then you would need
at least 74 db simply to have it not be equal to the transmit signal 
at max signal levels. You probably want it 20 db below that level 
to have a rational setup. That gets you to 94 db. If you see 20 to 
40 db fades below “max” then you are into the 114 to 134 db range. 

This is not to say you can’t get the job done. Only that you would
need to pay a bit of attention to the issue ….

Bob

> On Oct 8, 2020, at 4:50 PM, rcb...@atcelectronics.com wrote:
> 
> Bob,
> 
> I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.
> 
> Ray
> 
>  Original Message ----
> Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
> From: Bob kb8tq 
> Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
> To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement
> 
> 
> Hi
> 
> A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
> WWVB signal…….
> 
> Bob
> 
>> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
>> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
>> list have built these units.
>> 
>> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt
>> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back
>> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
>> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
>> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
>> 
>> Ray,
>> AB7HE
>> 
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> 
> 
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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[rcbuck]

Bob,

I am using a ferrite rod antenna for the receiver. No outside antenna.

Ray

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question
From: Bob kb8tq 
Date: Thu, October 08, 2020 12:40 pm
To: Discussion of precise time and frequency measurement


Hi

A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
WWVB signal…….

Bob

> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
> list have built these units.
> 
> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt
> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave. If I then divide that signal back
> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
> 
> Ray,
> AB7HE
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.


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Re: [time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[Bob kb8tq]

Hi

A lot depends on your antenna setup. You can also swamp out the incoming
WWVB signal…….

Bob

> On Oct 8, 2020, at 2:07 PM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
> eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
> list have built these units.
> 
> Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt
> trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave.  If I then divide that signal back
> down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
> signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
> somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.
> 
> Ray,
> AB7HE
> 
> ___
> time-nuts mailing list -- time-nuts@lists.febo.com
> To unsubscribe, go to 
> http://lists.febo.com/mailman/listinfo/time-nuts_lists.febo.com
> and follow the instructions there.


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[time-nuts] WWVB Dephaser Question

[rcbuck]

I have read several different articles where the WWVB phase shift is
eliminated by doubling the signal to 120 kHz. Several members of the
list have built these units.

Assume I build a circuit to double the incoming signal and use a schmitt
trigger to get a 120 kHz square wave.  If I then divide that signal back
down to 60 kHz will that signal be strong enough to swamp out the WWVB
signal? I'm guessing it will be since it is at the 5 volt level and
somewhere in the +25 dBm or greater range.

Ray,
AB7HE

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