Re: [tips] Student Loans

2013-08-24 Thread Paul C Bernhardt 
Speaking of this, and recent concerns about Obama's proposals that value added 
or other factors be important rating factors, Washington Monthly has been 
developing this kind of measure in their college ratings over the years. Their 
2013 ratings come out on Monday, Aug 26, but the 2012 ratings have been out a 
while. One of the more important ratings, IMO, is their Social Mobility measure 
to capture graduation rates of low income students. They take expected 
graduation rate based on entering SAT scores, percentage of students on Pell 
grants, HS GPA, etc. compared to the actual graduation rate, and that 
difference is (apparently) divided by the effective cost of education for the 
student. That is a kind of bang for buck measure (though they have a separate 
measure of that coming for 2013*). 

I was pleased to see our school performing comparatively well, better than 
nearly all the other schools in our state that I could see the data for (I 
couldn't see the data for University of Maryland or Johns Hopkins, for 
instance. 

That social mobility measure provides a very satisfying perspective on the 
private for profit (Argosy, Kaplan, Phoenix). They tend to graduate very low 
percentages compared to expectations (which are often low percentages, as it 
is) and cost a lot of money. 

Their new bang for buck measure appears to take into account loan default rate. 
A good school has low effective cost (which takes into account the proportion 
of grants, scholarships, etc.), high graduation rate and low default rate on 
loans. 

Concerns expressed here about such measures having unintended consequences are 
not off base, for sure. That is, less employable majors may have difficulty 
being justified… but I'm less concerned about refusing to admit students from 
difficult backgrounds, as long as an expected graduation rate is compared to 
actual graduation rates. The unintended consequence there, as we already see, 
is grade inflation pressures. 

But, I like that such bang for buck measures make the private for profit 
schools look very bad (I heard on All In on MSNBC that their default rates can 
be 40%!). I'm hopeful that is the intention of such a plan, to show them for 
what they are, gorgers at the trough of federal education funds. 

Beware, you will be greeted by repeated popups promoting the upcoming ratings. 
But, I find the data unique and compelling. 
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/rankings_2012/masters_universities_rank.php

Paul

On Aug 23, 2013, at 4:53 PM, Tim Shearon wrote:

> 
> John and others-  "On the other hand, I didn't really need the cool French 10 
> speed nor the Italian hiking boots etc etc. " Sounds very familiar! Or add to 
> that the North Face tent (when they were a small hand constructing company no 
> one had heard of the) or the MSR stove . . .  A very few splurges, yes.
> 
> My own experience has been that students who take loans at our school are 
> similar to the way John and I were as undergrads. I also lived in an 
> apartment carved out of an older house near campus during two years when I 
> had loans (it was cheaper than the dorms, not more expensive). There was no 
> pool, I rode the bicycle or walked most places (mine was British) because I 
> couldn't afford the 75-cent/gallon gas prices. I ate at home most of the time 
> (cheaper) and dined out once a week on "all you can eat night" at a local 
> pasta place (because I was running 40 miles a week). My fabulous wardrobe 
> consisted of jeans and t-shirts mostly. I also worked two part time jobs much 
> of the time and paid most of my own way the last two years at a private 
> liberal arts college because both my parents had forced medical retirement. 
> The parents helped all they could afford. Yes, today's students do need a 
> cell phone- but they don't pay for internet and many work part time to pay 
> for a few extras. (I have very few students who drive a new car or who don't 
> live a rather Spartan lifestyle). I will admit that I'm somewhat nonplussed 
> by some of their attitudes toward buying their textbooks. :) 
> Tim
> 
> ___
> Timothy O. Shearon, PhD
> Professor, Department of Psychology
> The College of Idaho
> Caldwell, ID 83605
> email: tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu
> 
> teaching: intro to neuropsychology; psychopharmacology; general; history and 
> systems
> 
> "You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." Dorothy Parker
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  In some cases, because they need to pay for a fancy apartment with 
> swimming pool etc,, a smart phone with unlimited service, a new car, meals 
> off campus, and all those essentials that I never had when a student.
> 
> Cheers,
> [Karl L. Wuensch]
> From: Paul C Bernhardt [mailto:pcbernha...@frostburg.edu]
> Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 8:41 AM
> To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
> Subject: Re: [tips] Obama on Federal Support of Education
> 
> Why do they

RE: [tips] Student Loans

2013-08-23 Thread Tim Shearon 

John and others-  "On the other hand, I didn't really need the cool French 10 
speed nor the Italian hiking boots etc etc. " Sounds very familiar! Or add to 
that the North Face tent (when they were a small hand constructing company no 
one had heard of the) or the MSR stove . . .  A very few splurges, yes.

My own experience has been that students who take loans at our school are 
similar to the way John and I were as undergrads. I also lived in an apartment 
carved out of an older house near campus during two years when I had loans (it 
was cheaper than the dorms, not more expensive). There was no pool, I rode the 
bicycle or walked most places (mine was British) because I couldn't afford the 
75-cent/gallon gas prices. I ate at home most of the time (cheaper) and dined 
out once a week on "all you can eat night" at a local pasta place (because I 
was running 40 miles a week). My fabulous wardrobe consisted of jeans and 
t-shirts mostly. I also worked two part time jobs much of the time and paid 
most of my own way the last two years at a private liberal arts college because 
both my parents had forced medical retirement. The parents helped all they 
could afford. Yes, today's students do need a cell phone- but they don't pay 
for internet and many work part time to pay for a few extras. (I have very few 
students who drive a new car or who don't live a rather Spartan lifestyle). I 
will admit that I'm somewhat nonplussed by some of their attitudes toward 
buying their textbooks. :) 
Tim

___
Timothy O. Shearon, PhD
Professor, Department of Psychology
The College of Idaho
Caldwell, ID 83605
email: tshea...@collegeofidaho.edu

teaching: intro to neuropsychology; psychopharmacology; general; history and 
systems

"You can't teach an old dogma new tricks." Dorothy Parker




  In some cases, because they need to pay for a fancy apartment with 
swimming pool etc,, a smart phone with unlimited service, a new car, meals off 
campus, and all those essentials that I never had when a student.

Cheers,
[Karl L. Wuensch]
From: Paul C Bernhardt [mailto:pcbernha...@frostburg.edu]
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 8:41 AM
To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
Subject: Re: [tips] Obama on Federal Support of Education

Why do they have to get a loan to get an education? To me, that seems to be the 
more important question.

Paul

On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Wuensch, Karl L wrote:

“It is time to stop subsidizing schools that are not producing good results.”  ☺

“Good results” means graduation, employment, and pay-back of loans.

I expect universities will be evaluating departments in the same way.  Who pays 
her loans back more reliably – the graduate with a degree in management 
information systems or the one with a degree in psychology?

Cheers,


Karl L. Wuensch, Professor and ECU Scholar/Teacher, Dept. of Psychology
East Carolina University, Greenville NC  27858-4353, USA, 
Earth
Voice:  252-328-9420 Fax:  252-328-6283
http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/klw.htm


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Re: [tips] Student Loans

2013-08-23 Thread John Kulig 

 


 


 

Oh the stories we could tell! I lived in an attic apartment (real cozy actually), drove a 1967 Volvo only when I left town (it was past its prime even then; the 67s were not the upscale Volvos of today), lived without any phone for a year, accepted care packages, and did babysitting for the faculty with kids . I didn't know any better ... didn't everyone live this way? And walked to school in 4 feet snow yeah yeah yeah ha haIt's difficult to be objective about all this though and I don't want to imply that we were freer of peer-induced "necessities". Kids do not need smart phones. On the other hand, I didn't really need the cool French 10 speed nor the Italian hiking boots etc etc. Priorities!JK==John W. Kulig, Ph.D.Professor of PsychologyCoordinator, Psychology HonorsPlymouth State University Plymouth NH 03264 ==From: "Karl L Wuensch" To: "Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)" Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 1:29:31 PMSubject: [tips] Student Loans






 


 


 



  In some cases, because they need to pay for a fancy apartment with swimming pool etc,, a smart phone with unlimited service, a new car, meals off campus, and all those
 essentials that I never had when a student.
 

Cheers,




From: Paul C Bernhardt [mailto:pcbernha...@frostburg.edu]

Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 8:41 AM
To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
Subject: Re: [tips] Obama on Federal Support of Education



Why do they have to get a loan to get an education? To me, that seems to be the more important question. 


 


Paul


 


On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Wuensch, Karl L wrote:


 

“It is time to stop subsidizing schools that are not producing good results.”  J


 


“Good results” means graduation, employment, and pay-back of loans.


 


I expect universities will be evaluating departments in the same way.  Who pays her loans back more reliably – the graduate with a degree in management information systems or the one with a
 degree in psychology?


 


Cheers,








Karl L. Wuensch, Professor and ECU Scholar/Teacher, Dept. of Psychology
East Carolina University, Greenville NC  27858-4353, USA, Earth
Voice:  252-328-9420 Fax:  252-328-6283
http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/klw.htm

 
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[tips] Student Loans

2013-08-23 Thread Wuensch, Karl L 
  In some cases, because they need to pay for a fancy apartment with 
swimming pool etc,, a smart phone with unlimited service, a new car, meals off 
campus, and all those essentials that I never had when a student.

Cheers,
[Karl L. Wuensch]
From: Paul C Bernhardt [mailto:pcbernha...@frostburg.edu]
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2013 8:41 AM
To: Teaching in the Psychological Sciences (TIPS)
Subject: Re: [tips] Obama on Federal Support of Education

Why do they have to get a loan to get an education? To me, that seems to be the 
more important question.

Paul

On Aug 22, 2013, at 11:53 AM, Wuensch, Karl L wrote:

"It is time to stop subsidizing schools that are not producing good results."  
:)

"Good results" means graduation, employment, and pay-back of loans.

I expect universities will be evaluating departments in the same way.  Who pays 
her loans back more reliably - the graduate with a degree in management 
information systems or the one with a degree in psychology?

Cheers,


Karl L. Wuensch, Professor and ECU Scholar/Teacher, Dept. of Psychology
East Carolina University, Greenville NC  27858-4353, USA, 
Earth
Voice:  252-328-9420 Fax:  252-328-6283
http://core.ecu.edu/psyc/wuenschk/klw.htm


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