Re: Topband: RE topband Leaving
This hobby is dead if we keep chasing off people. There is no reason we can't treat people respectfully here. If you can't then maybe those need to leave or Tree needs to show them the door. W0MU On 9/5/2018 11:01 AM, Jim Thomson wrote: Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 06:13:21 -0400 From: Mark K3MSB To: Mike Waters Cc: ad4hk2...@yahoo.com, topband , Tree Subject: Re: Topband: RE topband Leaving http://www.contesting.com/_topband _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: RE topband Leaving
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2018 06:13:21 -0400 From: Mark K3MSB To: Mike Waters Cc: ad4hk2...@yahoo.com, topband , Tree Subject: Re: Topband: RE topband Leaving http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: RE topband Leaving
I had to go rummage around my Trash folder to find the original post that started this: “From the FT8 arguments in addition to the "millennials causing the WWV shutdown" argument, it appears that the parts of the hobby that I enjoy do not cross paths with those on the topband reflector. Although I wish you all many CW DX, it appears that I am no longer welcome and that I must take my leave.” I've no idea what the millennial and WWV comment is about as I did not follow that thread. So we're back to the old FT8 vs CW argument.Was this person specifically harassed and hunted down for his views? Shame on the moderators if that's what happened.Or, did “the leaver” just not feel welcomed because others expressed contrary views and wouldn't back off? If that's the case, then there's the door, don't let it hit ya where the Good Lord split ya. I've been on this reflector for a number of years and from how I observe the moderators actions, I doubt any harassment and hunting down of heretics occurred; I like to see the moderators shoot a warning shot across the bow to get the ship of discourse turned away from the rocks, and overall I think they do a good job of it. In today's society people believe they have a right not to be offended. Really? I don't think so. Nobody, including myself, has the right to have their opinions respected.You do have the right to express your opinions freely, and without fear of persecution. In reality, that's not really true for a reflector as it's a private venue, but most reflectors operate as a benign dictatorship and hold to these principles. Mark's Principles of Discourse: #1: You don't have the right to not be offended. You don't have the right to have your views favorably accepted.You don't have the right to expect people with contrary view to back down because you're offended. Accept the fact that people will not agree with you. #2: Only you can decide to take offense. Sometimes the offenses are real, a lot of times imaginary. When I've felt offended by people on a reflector, or in email, or other electronic mediums, I privately email the potential offender for clarification. The vast majority of times there was no offense intended. Remember, with electronic mediums you loose about 93% of the intended message (body language, tone of voice etc – look this one up if you don't believe me.Google is your friend.). #3: If you don't respect the source of the insult, don't let it bother you. #4: If you're new to the sandbox, welcome. Unfortunately, if you want to be respected for your views, then you have to first earn your stripes. “Respect is something earned, not something given”. I have no idea who said that, but it's true. The corollary is that even if you don't respect a persons position, courtesy still remains. So Mike W0BTU, this is the 2nd thread in which you've posted your stackexchange etiquette manifesto: “but I gar-run-tee you that none of this bickering and (fill in your own definition of inappropriate behavior here) is tolerated there. ” Respectfully Mike, it seems you've had it with this “bickering” and “inappropriate behavior” and recommend putting the proverbial hammer down to set thing straight (you “gar-run-tee” it). That's concerns me. Is it really bickering that's occurring, or might it be just a healthy discourse on issues you might not feel need discussed any longer even though they may be of import to list members? “fill in your own definition of inappropriate behavior here”. Wow. I suspect you may not agree with mine. So, lets use mine and you follow them, OK ? “*Unacceptable Behavior - Even if you don’t intend it, this can have a negative impact on others ” So, if I offend someone I get a “warning” from the moderators as Enforcement step #1? I guess it's don't offend anyone for any reason or the hammer comes down! Sorry Mike, I think the moderators are doing a fine job as it is. Do I agree with their actions all the time? No. But I'll cut them some slack; it's a thankless job and you're always going to upset someone. So, in the end, we really don't know why “the leaver” is leaving. Was he hunted down and the slothful moderators did nothing?Did he attempt to contact the “offenders” to straighten things out? Or, perhaps, maybe he just wasn't able to change people's views to his own and decided to pick up his marbles and leave.Do we really know the facts, or are we just reacting in general to a newbie leaving the sandbox -- because a newbie leaving is bad? 73 Mark K3MSB On Tue, Sep 4, 2018 at 11:54 PM, Mike Waters wrote: > Okay, bear with me... > > Perhaps we here ought to have a Code Of Conduct. Something along the lines > as this one: > > https://stackoverflow.com/help/behavior > https://stackoverflow.com/conduct > > > I am one of the three moderators on ham.stackexchange.com. Now, that site > is not a forum or a reflector, but I
Re: Topband: RE topband Leaving
Okay, bear with me... Perhaps we here ought to have a Code Of Conduct. Something along the lines as this one: https://stackoverflow.com/help/behavior https://stackoverflow.com/conduct I am one of the three moderators on ham.stackexchange.com. Now, that site is not a forum or a reflector, but I gar-run-tee you that none of this bickering and (fill in your own definition of inappropriate behavior here) is tolerated there. Here's the gist of that Code of Conduct: *Unacceptable Behavior* *No subtle put-downs or unfriendly language.* Even if you don’t intend it, this can have a negative impact on others. *No name-calling or personal attacks*. Focus on the content, not the person. This includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to content (e.g. “lazy”). *No bigotry*. We don’t tolerate any language likely to offend or alienate people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion — and those are just a few examples. When in doubt, just don’t. *No harassment*. This includes, but isn’t limited to: bullying, intimidation, vulgar language, direct or indirect threats, sexually suggestive remarks, patterns of inappropriate social contact, and sustained disruptions of discussion. *Enforcement* We take your reports seriously. Those who don’t follow the Code of Conduct in good faith may face repercussions deemed appropriate by our moderation team. This is how moderators generally handle misconduct: *1. Warning* For most first-time misconduct, moderators will remove offending content and send a warning. Most issues are resolved here. *2. Account Suspension* For repetitive misconduct or behavior containing harassment, bigotry, or abuse, moderators will impose a temporary suspension (one day or more, depending on the violation). *3. Account Expulsion* For very rare cases, moderators will expel people who display a pattern of harmful destructive behavior toward our community. All actions will be taken on a case-by-case basis at the discretion of our moderators. ... We created this Code of Conduct because it reinforces the respect that we, as a community, expect from one another. Having a code also provides us with clear avenues to correct our culture should it stray off-course. *Why shouldn't we have something like that here, my friends?* - Actually, Dennis, I miss Tom. I learned an awful lot from him. He founded Ameritron, helped to design the MFJ-259B antenna analyzer and a lot of other items in the MFJ catalog. I agree with what you say, but he calmed down a lot before he left One of the hams that used to constantly pick and argue with Tom actually made a point of hunting him down for the sole purpose of getting him upset. (!) He took some kind of sadistic pleasure in doing it! I know for an absolute fact that is true, because when I emailed this person politely asking him about it, he plainly told me this. (Any questions about this person's identity will be immediately trashed). With an ENFORCED "be nice" policy here *with consequences for the kind of behavior we see here*, Tom would probably still be here. I am *not* campaigning to be moderator here. Make your own judgements, and decide for yourselves whether these suggestions would make this Topband Reflector a better place or not. 73 SK CL, Mike www.w0btu.com ham.stackexchange.com moderator On Tue, Sep 4, 2018, 2:31 PM Dennis OConnor via Topband < topband@contesting.com> wrote: > Well, I have been gone a few years (spent time partially paralyzed and few > other minor impediments) but when I come back nothing has changed. > Yeah, Tom headed off into the distance. He sure did like to argue. What > made those arguing with him go ballistic is he is often/mostly right on > technical subjects. He just did not have the ability to shrug, decide the > other guy was an idiot and let it go. > What I do notice about leavers is they seem to feel sorry for themselves, > feel they are abused, yadda yadda. Unless you have the stature of a Tom you > won't even be mentioned by two weeks from now so feeling Noble is a waste > of emotion. > I participate in a few forums, ham antennas, contesting, boating, > aircraft, photography, farming, astronomy, etc. I have lots of hobbies - > remember, he who dies with the most wins.. I can tell you from long long > experience that to be in any hobby forum you need to grow a thick skin. If > someone really irritates you, don't read him. > > If you have had your say and he keeps coming back at you and digging, just > drop it. Refuse to post any further on the topic. If you can't control > yourself then block the thread. Let him declare victory, hold a parade, and > sail for home. That is how the self declared winners of any war end it.In > my case I don't know what the hoo-haa over millennials (whatever the hell > they are) is about, don't care, don't want to know, and not gonna look up > the thread. See, I don't have any stress > (I cause it) > > To the OP on
Re: Topband: RE topband Leaving
My 2 cents on the issue and nobody is going to give me that much for my thoughts, is... When someone leaves in anger, rejection, assertiveness, (Fit in your favorite adjective), There are two winners and two losers: One wins because they left on their terms, the other wins because "Thank God they're gone". One loses because they will no longer learn from the others and the other because they loose future food for thought. So to me, & back to my two worthless pence, it is a wash as to win or lose when someone leaves, but nobody gains and therein is to me, the loss of value to the whole thing. 73, Gary KA1J _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Re: Topband: RE topband Leaving
Hi:) I don't comment much but I would like to relate a lesson from early in my life. The kid across the street would bring his ball and bat over to our farm and we (I am in a *large* family) played baseball all summer. There was no such thing as softball even though thats what we used. The neighbor boy decided that since it was his ball and bat he should be allowed some indefinite number of strikes. Oy. We refused. He told us "Okay then I am taking *my* ball and bat and going home." He stormed out of our back yard. Next day we were out there playing with our own ball and bat. It took him about five minutes to come over and ask if he could play with us :) Nobody ever mentioned his attitude from the previous day. I think we all learned something from that. It applies to this very day. Dennis hit it pretty close on this one. Nobody with an attitude is going to punish us by taking their ball and bat home with them. It just won't play out that way. 73, Bill KU8H On 09/04/2018 03:30 PM, Dennis OConnor via Topband wrote: Well, I have been gone a few years (spent time partially paralyzed and few other minor impediments) but when I come back nothing has changed. Yeah, Tom headed off into the distance. He sure did like to argue. What made those arguing with him go ballistic is he is often/mostly right on technical subjects. He just did not have the ability to shrug, decide the other guy was an idiot and let it go. What I do notice about leavers is they seem to feel sorry for themselves, feel they are abused, yadda yadda. Unless you have the stature of a Tom you won't even be mentioned by two weeks from now so feeling Noble is a waste of emotion. I participate in a few forums, ham antennas, contesting, boating, aircraft, photography, farming, astronomy, etc. I have lots of hobbies - remember, he who dies with the most wins.. I can tell you from long long experience that to be in any hobby forum you need to grow a thick skin. If someone really irritates you, don't read him. If you have had your say and he keeps coming back at you and digging, just drop it. Refuse to post any further on the topic. If you can't control yourself then block the thread. Let him declare victory, hold a parade, and sail for home. That is how the self declared winners of any war end it.In my case I don't know what the hoo-haa over millennials (whatever the hell they are) is about, don't care, don't want to know, and not gonna look up the thread. See, I don't have any stress (I cause it) To the OP on this issue, I urge you to stick around because I like to see any and all opinions - but if not, don't let the door knob do ya.And NO, I will not be looking back at this thread to see a reply. I have had my say and that's it. Ciao,Look for me on topband in 4 to 6 weeks when I get the soybeans combined and the broken antenna junk patched up (wow is it wrecked after 8 years) I'm CW though. k8do _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband -- bark less - wag more _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
Topband: RE topband Leaving
Well, I have been gone a few years (spent time partially paralyzed and few other minor impediments) but when I come back nothing has changed. Yeah, Tom headed off into the distance. He sure did like to argue. What made those arguing with him go ballistic is he is often/mostly right on technical subjects. He just did not have the ability to shrug, decide the other guy was an idiot and let it go. What I do notice about leavers is they seem to feel sorry for themselves, feel they are abused, yadda yadda. Unless you have the stature of a Tom you won't even be mentioned by two weeks from now so feeling Noble is a waste of emotion. I participate in a few forums, ham antennas, contesting, boating, aircraft, photography, farming, astronomy, etc. I have lots of hobbies - remember, he who dies with the most wins.. I can tell you from long long experience that to be in any hobby forum you need to grow a thick skin. If someone really irritates you, don't read him. If you have had your say and he keeps coming back at you and digging, just drop it. Refuse to post any further on the topic. If you can't control yourself then block the thread. Let him declare victory, hold a parade, and sail for home. That is how the self declared winners of any war end it.In my case I don't know what the hoo-haa over millennials (whatever the hell they are) is about, don't care, don't want to know, and not gonna look up the thread. See, I don't have any stress (I cause it) To the OP on this issue, I urge you to stick around because I like to see any and all opinions - but if not, don't let the door knob do ya.And NO, I will not be looking back at this thread to see a reply. I have had my say and that's it. Ciao,Look for me on topband in 4 to 6 weeks when I get the soybeans combined and the broken antenna junk patched up (wow is it wrecked after 8 years) I'm CW though. k8do _ Topband Reflector Archives - http://www.contesting.com/_topband
