[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-03 Thread trac

Hi Noah,
>
> Clunkiness is not the issue, we do not wish to require Subversion in 
> order to use Trac. It is better to reinvient a bit of the wheel in 100 
> lines of code, than force you to install a much much larger package 
> (plus its deps, etc). There is also the issue that Trac supports other 
> SCMs, and making a cross-SCM API for both reading and writing is very 
> tricky. Everyone does things just a bit differently, even unifying the 
> read-only APi is a stretch much of the time.

heads up for the developer that do all this work, and I really can 
imagine that this is not an easy task. But isn't the current "custom 
database storage" of the wiki pages nothing else than another different 
"version control backend"? So why not unify the vcs backend and then 
provide the current SQLlite storage of the WIKI pages as a vcs provider?
The API for this must not be the same as the API for pluggable version 
control systems in general. It is only about wiki storage. and merging 
these APIs would indeed have a high risk to not succeed.

This would fullfill multiple goals: those who want to have it in the 
subversion repos can use the subversion backend, even those who want to 
have different subversions for their source code and wiki data are lucky 
and those who want an easy system use the sqlite backend. And you could 
have different wiki domains with different backend storage: 1 domain of 
the wiki, e.g. the documentation is part of subversion[1], another 
domain e.g. for service is stored in the SQLlite database, since it has 
nothing to do with the software release cycle itself.

I know, again another layer for no real reason, and additional work to 
due, if lot's of other important tasks are on the table. I consider this 
as a technological discussion, where trac should head at. Not today, not 
tomorrow, but the general direction should be towards a pluggable wiki 
storage system.

Best regards
Dirk

[1] I know there are different macros available to include text from 
subversion into wikipages, but this is not the same.

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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-03 Thread Thomas Moschny

2008/6/3, Noah Kantrowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Clunkiness is not the issue, we do not wish to require Subversion in order
> to use Trac.

Subversion is of course not the only option. There might be cases
however where someone does not have a repository at all, but still
wants to use Trac for tickets and wiki contents, and who would be hurt
by the requirement to install at least one of the supported vcs. I
don't know how relevant this is, though.

> There is also the issue that Trac supports other SCMs, and making a
> cross-SCM API for both reading and writing is very tricky. Everyone does
> things just a bit differently, even unifying the read-only APi is a stretch
> much of the time.

That's right, but we have to do that anyway - and I hope things will
improve in 0.12. Trac is still very much bound to Subversion, and
other VC backends sometimes have major difficulties fitting into that
model (assuming linear history is a prominent example).

Also, I've a hard time to believe that finding a common API for
storing named blobs of versioned data (i.e. the wiki contents) across
the set of commonly used VCS shouldn't be doable - that's the core
business of VCSs, isn't it? This may require some work, admittedly,
...

> dSCMs are still very much an emerging technology, and distributed bug 
> tracking even
> more so. Time will tell if it works in the general case.

... but why should Trac, now that it is widely used, rest on it's
laurels, instead of exploring new grounds?

- Thomas

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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-03 Thread Noah Kantrowitz

Thomas Moschny wrote:

2008/6/2, Jeff Hammel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

For what its worth from a first time mailer to this list, I am glad trac does 
not import its wiki pages into an svn repo by default.  For my mileage, this 
would be clunkier (but I'm sure I have different wiki needs than others).


It is not clear to me how saving wiki pages in svn (or any other vc
backend) could be clunkier, given the fact that wiki pages are simply
versioned text pages. So, while using the real vcs for the projects
'first class' contents, Trac is implementing its own version control
for the wiki pages (and other things, like attachments) and is thus
duplicating efforts. Imho *that* is clunkier.


Clunkiness is not the issue, we do not wish to require Subversion in 
order to use Trac. It is better to reinvient a bit of the wheel in 100 
lines of code, than force you to install a much much larger package 
(plus its deps, etc). There is also the issue that Trac supports other 
SCMs, and making a cross-SCM API for both reading and writing is very 
tricky. Everyone does things just a bit differently, even unifying the 
read-only APi is a stretch much of the time. I am not going to argue 
that versioning project data is bad idea, just that for most projects a 
full SCM is vast overkill for this. dSCMs are still very much an 
emerging technology, and distributed bug tracking even more so. Time 
will tell if it works in the general case.


--Noah



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Description: OpenPGP digital signature


[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-03 Thread Thomas Moschny

2008/6/2, Jeff Hammel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> For what its worth from a first time mailer to this list, I am glad trac does 
> not import its wiki pages into an svn repo by default.  For my mileage, this 
> would be clunkier (but I'm sure I have different wiki needs than others).

It is not clear to me how saving wiki pages in svn (or any other vc
backend) could be clunkier, given the fact that wiki pages are simply
versioned text pages. So, while using the real vcs for the projects
'first class' contents, Trac is implementing its own version control
for the wiki pages (and other things, like attachments) and is thus
duplicating efforts. Imho *that* is clunkier.

Of course the basic problem behind is that people are not (yet) used
to the idea that not only a project's source code, but also tickets
and other resources (like wiki pages) should go to the same
repository. This approach becomes even more elegant if based on a
distributed vc system, because it then allows every project member to
work on a local copy of *all* of the project's vital data (and not
only the source code). In such a scenario, Trac would only be one
possible frontend to visualize and manipulate this data.

An example of how this could look like, is Fossil [1]. LWN also has an
interesting article [2] covering distributed bug tracking, which I
think is the right way to go.

- Thomas

[1] http://www.fossil-scm.org/index.html
[2] http://lwn.net/Articles/281849/

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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread Jeff Hammel

On Mon, Jun 02, 2008 at 01:00:48PM -0700, Noah Kantrowitz wrote:
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf Of Thomas Moschny
> > Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:48 AM
> > To: trac-users@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: [Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution
> > 
> > 
> > 2008/6/2, Noah Kantrowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > > Check both into subversion and use that (or git, hg, etc). A wiki is
> > not
> > > designed for that kind of complex document management.
> > 
> > Well, if Trac stored the wiki contents within the repository
> > [1], it could even support such 'complex' tasks. Ikiwiki [2] does
> > that, for example, even in a distributed way.
> > 
> 
> I said quite clearly that this is an option, and that we have opted to not
> do it this way for a number of important reasons. These are detailed in the
> link I gave. If you want a subversion-backed wiki, use a subversion-backed
> wiki, I don't see why this is a problem. Trac doesn't have to fill every
> possible niche ever :P
> 
> --Noah

For what its worth from a first time mailer to this list, I am glad trac does 
not import its wiki pages into an svn repo by default.  For my mileage, this 
would be clunkier (but I'm sure I have different wiki needs than others).

Jeff

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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread Noah Kantrowitz

> -Original Message-
> From: trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Thomas Moschny
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:48 AM
> To: trac-users@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution
> 
> 
> 2008/6/2, Noah Kantrowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Check both into subversion and use that (or git, hg, etc). A wiki is
> not
> > designed for that kind of complex document management.
> 
> Well, if Trac stored the wiki contents within the repository
> [1], it could even support such 'complex' tasks. Ikiwiki [2] does
> that, for example, even in a distributed way.
> 

I said quite clearly that this is an option, and that we have opted to not
do it this way for a number of important reasons. These are detailed in the
link I gave. If you want a subversion-backed wiki, use a subversion-backed
wiki, I don't see why this is a problem. Trac doesn't have to fill every
possible niche ever :P

--Noah


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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread Thomas Moschny

2008/6/2, Noah Kantrowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Check both into subversion and use that (or git, hg, etc). A wiki is not
> designed for that kind of complex document management.

Well, if Trac stored the wiki contents within the repository
[1], it could even support such 'complex' tasks. Ikiwiki [2] does
that, for example, even in a distributed way.

- Thomas

[1] see e.g. http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/WhySQLite
[2] http://ikiwiki.info/

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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread yoheeb

On Jun 2, 12:35 pm, "Duany Espindola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Thank you Noah!
>
> I will do this using svn or "diff and patch" commands.
> I think more people have de same problem that I have. Maybe I make a plug-in
> when I take a vacation.
>
> Att
>
> Duany César (Brazil)


vacation?  I thought that was an urban legend!  Hehe.  Sorry I didn't
fully understand what you were asking, I think I did, but it seem it
was a case of what you were saying, and what you really wanted didn't
come together correctly in my fragmented hard drive :)

I will be using this same strategy in a different context.  I expect
to export controlled documents AS wiki pages, or in reality, to
"include" macro them into paged dedicated to them.  They need to be
versioned, and actually will be versioned in multiple spots...the
source tool, and again in the Subversion repository.  then, yes, the
diff tool works just fine.  Which is really handy when we feature
branch, then decide to bring them back, as these are requirements,
design, and user manual documents.  Good luck.
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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread Noah Kantrowitz
See http://trac-hacks.org/wiki/PrivateTicketsPlugin?format=txt for an
example of how you can do this nicely.

 

--Noah

 

From: trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Duany Espindola
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:40 AM
To: trac-users@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

 

Yupy!
That is the solution I´m looking for. hehehe
Thank you!
I should have thought of that before !

Att,

Duany César

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Noah Kantrowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

No. Again, you are misusing a wiki when you want a version control system.
You can use the Include macro to pull text from the VCS into the wiki if you
still want to show it there as well.

 

--Noah

 

From: trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Duany Espindola
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:30 AM


To: trac-users@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

 

Thank you too, but   
I think this solution not works for me because the TRAC wiki pages are
not text files.
For view this pages in text files we need do a export command. 
I want know if a plug-in could do that, something like this: "trac-admin
myEnv wiki merge PageA[1:4]  PageB "

Att,

Duany César

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 1:16 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Jun 2, 9:01 am, "Duany Espindola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank you, *but* it is not the solution that I'm looking for.
> This tool works for common files, but I need one that works in wiki-pages
> into a TRAC environment.
>
> Someone have another idea ?
> --
> Duany César (Brazil)
>

> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Jani Tiainen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Duany Espindola kirjoitti:


> > > Hi, everybody!
>
> > > I have bean looking for a solution for two weeks for my problem
and
> > > this forum is my last try.
> > > I had two equal wiki pages: PageA and PageB. So I make changes in
> > > PageA and different changes in PageB. Now I need merge the changes in
> > > PageA in the PageB.
> > > I read a lot things about merge wiki pages in collision case, but
I
> > > don't know how to resolve my problem and I will be happy if anyone
help
> > me.
>

> > There is tool called "diff3" that can help you to merge and make
> > conflicts correctly provided that PageA and PageB do have common
> > preceding version. See for example <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diff3>
>
> > --
> > Jani Tiainen 

I don't understand how this is not a solution to  your problem.  You
want to merge/diff, use a merge/diff tool.  vimdiff,
winmerge, ...etc.  you just have to point to the actual files of the
wiki pages instead of at the rendered level.  The only other thing I
can think of, is to do one of the following:
 open both files in edit mode in separate brower windows/tabs and:
 visually merged the changes throught the file, or
 export both to plain text, use a diff tool to see the differences,
then manually cut and paste the changes into the wiki edit mode
window(s)

otherwise, I guess I don't fully understand what it is you are trying
to accomplish by the term "merge".

 




-- 
Duany César S. Espindola

 

 




-- 
Duany César S. Espindola


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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread Duany Espindola
Yupy!
That is the solution I´m looking for. hehehe
Thank you!
I should have thought of that before !

Att,

Duany César

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Noah Kantrowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  No. Again, you are misusing a wiki when you want a version control
> system. You can use the Include macro to pull text from the VCS into the
> wiki if you still want to show it there as well.
>
>
>
> --Noah
>
>
>
> *From:* trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Duany Espindola
> *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 10:30 AM
> *To:* trac-users@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages – not a collision solution
>
>
>
> Thank you too, but
> I think this solution not works for me because the TRAC wiki pages are
> not text files.
> For view this pages in text files we need do a export command.
> I want know if a plug-in could do that, something like this: "*trac-admin
> myEnv wiki merge PageA[1:4]  PageB* "
>
> Att,
>
> Duany César
>
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 1:16 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 2, 9:01 am, "Duany Espindola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Thank you, *but* it is not the solution that I'm looking for.
> > This tool works for common files, but I need one that works in wiki-pages
> > into a TRAC environment.
> >
> > Someone have another idea ?
> > --
> > Duany César (Brazil)
> >
>
> > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Jani Tiainen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Duany Espindola kirjoitti:
>
> > > > Hi, everybody!
> >
> > > > I have bean looking for a solution for two weeks for my problem
> and
> > > > this forum is my last try.
> > > > I had two equal wiki pages: PageA and PageB. So I make changes in
> > > > PageA and different changes in PageB. Now I need merge the changes in
> > > > PageA in the PageB.
> > > > I read a lot things about merge wiki pages in collision case, but
> I
> > > > don't know how to resolve my problem and I will be happy if anyone
> help
> > > me.
> >
> > > There is tool called "diff3" that can help you to merge and make
> > > conflicts correctly provided that PageA and PageB do have common
> > > preceding version. See for example <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diff3
> >
> >
> > > --
> > > Jani Tiainen
>
> I don't understand how this is not a solution to  your problem.  You
> want to merge/diff, use a merge/diff tool.  vimdiff,
> winmerge, ...etc.  you just have to point to the actual files of the
> wiki pages instead of at the rendered level.  The only other thing I
> can think of, is to do one of the following:
>  open both files in edit mode in separate brower windows/tabs and:
>  visually merged the changes throught the file, or
>  export both to plain text, use a diff tool to see the differences,
> then manually cut and paste the changes into the wiki edit mode
> window(s)
>
> otherwise, I guess I don't fully understand what it is you are trying
> to accomplish by the term "merge".
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Duany César S. Espindola
>
> >
>


-- 
Duany César S. Espindola

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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread Noah Kantrowitz
Any time you think "branch/merge" you shouldn't be using a wiki pretty much.
There are some wikis that are based about VCSs, but Trac has shied away from
that for a long list of reasons (see TighterSubversionIntegration). The Trac
project itself is now having problems related to this, and so we are looking
to move docs into Subversion for exactly this reason. Hopefully we will be
able to produce a workflow and UI for this that other projects can use as
well.

 

--Noah

 

From: trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Duany Espindola
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:35 AM
To: trac-users@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

 

Thank you Noah!

I will do this using svn or "diff and patch" commands.
I think more people have de same problem that I have. Maybe I make a plug-in
when I take a vacation.

Att

Duany César (Brazil)

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Noah Kantrowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Check both into subversion and use that (or git, hg, etc). A wiki is not
designed for that kind of complex document management.

 

--Noah

 

From: trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Duany Espindola
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 4:08 AM
To: trac-users@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Trac] Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

 

Hi, everybody!

I have bean looking for a solution for two weeks for my problem and this
forum is my last try.
I had two equal wiki pages: PageA and PageB. So I make changes in PageA
and different changes in PageB. Now I need merge the changes in PageA in the
PageB.
I read a lot things about merge wiki pages in collision case, but I
don't know how to resolve my problem and I will be happy if anyone help me.

Att,

Duany César (Brazil)

 

 

 




-- 
Duany César S. Espindola


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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread Duany Espindola
Thank you Noah!

I will do this using svn or "diff and patch" commands.
I think more people have de same problem that I have. Maybe I make a plug-in
when I take a vacation.

Att

Duany César (Brazil)

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 1:30 PM, Noah Kantrowitz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  Check both into subversion and use that (or git, hg, etc). A wiki is not
> designed for that kind of complex document management.
>
>
>
> --Noah
>
>
>
> *From:* trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On
> Behalf Of *Duany Espindola
> *Sent:* Monday, June 02, 2008 4:08 AM
> *To:* trac-users@googlegroups.com
> *Subject:* [Trac] Merge wiki pages – not a collision solution
>
>
>
> Hi, everybody!
>
> I have bean looking for a solution for two weeks for my problem and
> this forum is my last try.
> I had two equal wiki pages: PageA and PageB. So I make changes in PageA
> and different changes in PageB. Now I need merge the changes in PageA in the
> PageB.
> I read a lot things about merge wiki pages in collision case, but I
> don't know how to resolve my problem and I will be happy if anyone help me.
>
> Att,
>
> Duany César (Brazil)
>
>
>
> >
>


-- 
Duany César S. Espindola

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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread Noah Kantrowitz
No. Again, you are misusing a wiki when you want a version control system.
You can use the Include macro to pull text from the VCS into the wiki if you
still want to show it there as well.

 

--Noah

 

From: trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Duany Espindola
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 10:30 AM
To: trac-users@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

 

Thank you too, but   
I think this solution not works for me because the TRAC wiki pages are
not text files.
For view this pages in text files we need do a export command. 
I want know if a plug-in could do that, something like this: "trac-admin
myEnv wiki merge PageA[1:4]  PageB "

Att,

Duany César

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 1:16 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Jun 2, 9:01 am, "Duany Espindola" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank you, *but* it is not the solution that I'm looking for.
> This tool works for common files, but I need one that works in wiki-pages
> into a TRAC environment.
>
> Someone have another idea ?
> --
> Duany César (Brazil)
>

> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Jani Tiainen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Duany Espindola kirjoitti:
> > > Hi, everybody!
>
> > > I have bean looking for a solution for two weeks for my problem
and
> > > this forum is my last try.
> > > I had two equal wiki pages: PageA and PageB. So I make changes in
> > > PageA and different changes in PageB. Now I need merge the changes in
> > > PageA in the PageB.
> > > I read a lot things about merge wiki pages in collision case, but
I
> > > don't know how to resolve my problem and I will be happy if anyone
help
> > me.
>
> > There is tool called "diff3" that can help you to merge and make
> > conflicts correctly provided that PageA and PageB do have common
> > preceding version. See for example <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diff3>
>
> > --
> > Jani Tiainen

I don't understand how this is not a solution to  your problem.  You
want to merge/diff, use a merge/diff tool.  vimdiff,
winmerge, ...etc.  you just have to point to the actual files of the
wiki pages instead of at the rendered level.  The only other thing I
can think of, is to do one of the following:
 open both files in edit mode in separate brower windows/tabs and:
 visually merged the changes throught the file, or
 export both to plain text, use a diff tool to see the differences,
then manually cut and paste the changes into the wiki edit mode
window(s)

otherwise, I guess I don't fully understand what it is you are trying
to accomplish by the term "merge".

 




-- 
Duany César S. Espindola


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[Trac] Re: Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

2008-06-02 Thread Noah Kantrowitz
Check both into subversion and use that (or git, hg, etc). A wiki is not
designed for that kind of complex document management.

 

--Noah

 

From: trac-users@googlegroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Duany Espindola
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 4:08 AM
To: trac-users@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Trac] Merge wiki pages - not a collision solution

 

Hi, everybody!

I have bean looking for a solution for two weeks for my problem and this
forum is my last try.
I had two equal wiki pages: PageA and PageB. So I make changes in PageA
and different changes in PageB. Now I need merge the changes in PageA in the
PageB.
I read a lot things about merge wiki pages in collision case, but I
don't know how to resolve my problem and I will be happy if anyone help me.

Att,

Duany César (Brazil)




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